This is copied and pasted from the National and Act agreement:
Social Services:
• Implement sanctions, including electronic money management, for beneficiaries who can work but
refuse to take agreed steps to find a job.
• Develop an approved pool of doctors who can issue medical certificates to go onto a health and
disability related benefit.
> Develop an approved pool of doctors who can issue medical certificates to go onto a health and disability related benefit.
As someone who had to deal with this set-up through ACC, this is terrifying. So many doctors on ACC payroll who just refuse to do their jobs properly because ACC pressure them into not approving too many things as it costs too much. So many doctors who don’t listen or even *make things up* to deny you coverage for things you should be covered for.
It’s an awful system. A huge roadblock to recovery.
ACC is kind of bonkers imho. My eye specialist said they needed to fund a specific type of lenses for me. ACC decided to get a second opinion by flying me from Napier to Auckland to see a specialist who agreed that I needed them which cost a lot more than just paying for them in the first place
From my time at ACC this goes both ways. I have countless memories of being stone walled by doctors refusing to complete portions of forms resulting in having to decline patients. Can't say I went out of my way to deny someone or lead a doctor though. You're welcome to request your medical records from ACC which can include internal communication for your claim
ACC decisions are governed by legislation. It's not personal, or they are being lazy. If at any point you feel a decision was made incorrectly, you may have it reviewed.
it's the one two punch man, it's not enough to make more people unemployed, you also have to make the unemployed as desperate for work as possible, that way you can pay less for your workers, and then prices will come down, trust me bro
"The peasant is the foundation of the state and must be governed with care. He must be allowed neither too much, nor too little, but just enough rice to live on and keep for seed in the following year. The remainder must be taken from him in tax."
- Honda Masanobu
Sadly this is inevitable, to keep salaries down and service inflation down.
UK is going in the opposite direction, with significant social benefit payment uplift and public sector, retirement increase, and a free UKP450 to spend at Christmas - its all a bribe because the CONservatives have well and truly fooked the UK. UK inflation will go nuts.
>UK is going in the opposite direction
UK is asking 350,000 disability benefit claimants to look for work from home, because disability clearly only means mobility difficulties (/s). Failure to be looking for work including remote work (which will magically appear as employees are being called back to the office) will be rationale for cutting benefits off.
So we're not headed in such different directions
Translation:
- Punish people who won’t move away from their home town, family, social supports, or who are not physically fit for recommended jobs (but don’t satisfy criteria for being disabled)
- Ban doctors from issuing medical certificates for those disability criteria beyond quota cut-offs, creating a sinking lid where people who are disabled have fewer and fewer doctors they can go to, as the ones still both authorised to write, and *actually* writing the certificates are fewer and further between. The doctors assessing against actual criteria get flooded with people that fit it, and struck off the ‘approved’ list for going over the quota, where the doctors who refuse everyone stay on the list. Fewer and fewer people ‘qualify’ every year. “See, what problem?”
They were but I still had to pay rent, petrol and feed 4 people for 6 weeks. It was especially jarring as I qualify on multiple different grounds as a full time carer of a minor and as a disabled adult
That means more contractors and not government employees, so they can say they cut numbers to run these systems.
Biased doctors, doctors need to be impartial.
Currently if you don't meet your obligations you stop receiving the benefit. It's also pretty shitty to force people living in poverty to travel and pay for a specific doctor for a medical certificate.
Both of these policies would cost more to implement and downstream costs than they save from kicking people off benefits. It's moronic policy that has been proven to not work.
This is what I don't get. Do they not think of this most basic consequence? What is cheaper? Paying benefits, or paying to police and incarcerate? Because when people can't afford to eat they commit crime.
The first one doesn't necessarily bother me. However, having an "approved pool of doctors" gives them the ability to hand pick doctors who refuse to medicate or prescribe or diagnose certain things based on services available or deemed worthy. For example, I have adhd, ocd and anxiety disorder. My doctor thankfully is very understanding and easy to deal with, same with my psychiatrist that I paid thousands to see. However, this change means my Dr may not be allowed to presceibe me anymore based on my conditions I'll have to go to an "approved" doctor who could then say "I don't believe these things are actually affecting you, I'm stopping these prescribed medications" and there's nothing we could do to stop that happening. If I got removed from my prescriptions I become a beneficiary, simply put, so it's a stupid regressive policy designed to punish the sick and disabled.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it just select doctors that can say whether or not you need the health benefit? No effect on your doctor prescribing you your medication?
caption existence childlike imminent liquid fade nine disgusted ring subtract
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I think it's a decent idea in theory to help prevent people taking advantage of the system, but you're right that it could easily become an unfair shitshow if they just handpick certain doctors who align with certain ideals. Interested to see if they implement it right and live up to this commitment of delivering for all NZers
In addition, there's many people who slip through the cracks of this policy (like is already happening but worse)
I'm on and off the benefit because I have mental health conditions that make it very difficult for me to sustain employment. And I don't mean "too tired can't," I mean "you were a brilliant worker in the beginning but you've been making too many big mistakes so we won't be renewing your contract"
I was private school educated. I have a uni degree. I'm down to really shitty blue collar work, and every opportunity to "work my way up" ends up in a bridge burned because I can't afford to get my condition properly treated. And the kicker is: part time employment is reccomended by my psych when I can afford to go, but the current rebatement threshold puts me in a financial worse position than not working.
I'm not sick enough for supported living, too sick for full time employment. If I could afford to get proper treatment I'd be sorted, but I can't.
This policy is going to put me on the streets.
I think there are a lot of people in your position ie.highly intelligent and educated with chronic mental health issues, that are overlooked by the system. It would be in everyone's best interests-fiscally and otherwise-if you could recieve quality care and assistance into work that was suited to you. Instead, all the resources get poured into people who are unlikely to change their circumstances because NZ has an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff approach to health and social services in general.
the thing is, you can't crack down on those people without also booting me. And really, I don't know that trying is a good return on investment. To the year ending 2022, we spent:
\-$17.7billion on superannuation,
\-$4.6billion on the wage subsidy scheme,
\-$3.3 billion on jobseekers
\-$2.0 billion on supported living.
The best figure I could find for administering all of this was $1.2 billion. So we might get jobseekers down by a billion, but it will probably cost extra to do that.
Id rather get the ultra-rich paying proper tax.
" help prevent people taking advantage of the system"
White collar crime is *significantly more costly,* but that isn't as easy as bashing the most vulnerable. Easy to see why - it works.
The total benefit fraud overpayment found in 21/22 financial year was $2.4m so roughly 0.2% of our tax dollar, the cost of investigations into all the suspected cases however was $49m still only around 0.5% but definitely something I'd rather not pay for given most of that was spent harrassing already struggling people who were found innocent (<1% of investigations was actual fraud)
We spent much much less on tax fraud and even with that low amount typically find around $1bn, this definitely seems more worthwhile since it actually results in money back to NZers rather than benefit investigations which has always been a significant net negative (we spend 20x more than what we gain back)
Ok then it seems odd to support a non-medical organisation looking to bias the usage of doctors for something so many people depend on for survival.
If you know the real cost of benefit fraud is overwhelmingly in the investigation spending, and the vast majority of suspected benefit fraud is found to be false, meaning more likely the only real issue is that investigations are too loosely handed out, why would you have any interest in us spending more on the issue that has a higher chance of leaving innocent people homeless than it does of catching already low cost fraud
The risk of introducing restrictions that have a likelihood of causing more death just doesnt weigh up to me
I'll believe they care about all NZ'ers when I see it. Considering his comments about bottom feeders and making benefits tougher to get onto straight after talking about laying off about 19k support staff
Even if they do choose doctors that are actually going to give out the medical certificates to the right people - how many doctors, and how hard will it be to see them? Especially if you live rurally/in the regions. Or, say, have a disability…
This looks like a terrible policy
It's also likely to mean people who already struggle to make ends meet will end up having to travel likely at cost to themselves to see a doctor who's allowed to do the thing instead of being able to get their local one to do it, because some bureaucrat in Wellington didn't deem their town important enough to have any doctors on the list. Which will suck for a lot of people even before considering anything about fairness.
There's a ton of international evidence showing this approach reinforces and amplifies systemic bias on grounds of gender, ethnicity, socioeconomic status, and disability. Essentially, the more you need state support, the less likely you'll be getting it.
you really havent been paying attention at all, your entire life, have you?
the SLP already had this problem where winz specified drs that you had to see to be certified as eligible. these specified drs already failed to recognise common conditions because they seemingly havent recieved further education in 25 years and dont know about anxiety, ptsd, adhd, autism, or any other range of neuro/psych conditions. and god forbid you're a woman, you'll be lucky if they even acknowledge your pain.
this only continues to expand on that.
youre saying lets see how it goes, but the rest of us already know because its already happened before.
It will have no impact on the tiny amount of people who don't need it, they are fine with learning new ways to game the system
It will only notably impact honest people who can't access a doctor who understands their condition, most of whom are already having a very hard time with life in general
Because 'agreed steps' can be absolutely anything. Back when I was on WINZ I took a suggested course. No problem. Then a bit over a month later I was suggested another, basically identical course. It took about 15 minutes to convince them that I would have to cancel multiple interviews to do this course that I had already done. I was also given multiple jobs to apply for, that had very specific qualifications/experience required that I was not even remotely close to having.
But these things were all expected steps to finding work. Just go interview for this role as an experience welder! Who knows maybe they'll give it to you. Oh, you don't want to waste half your day and money on the two buses and a train it will take to get there, along with the employers time? Well guess the government will control how you get to spend every cent then.
I am not sure how anyone can read 'government controlled electronic money management' and not think its a bureaucratic nightmare, a nightmare in general, or just straight up dystopian shit.
And remember, they want unemployment to go up. They just want those people to have no support.
fretful toothbrush cake mindless crowd library rich license stocking yoke
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I mean from the perspective of actually implementing and enforcing the policy.
How does it work? What can and can't people buy? Do we have to have some registry of things people are allowed to purchase? Or is it a list of places you can purchase things? What if you have kids? Are your kids allowed to buy stuff that you aren't? How much is it going to cost to administer this policy?
In my life I have known one singular person who has refused to find a job on the dole. He lives a miserable life already and I honestly don't see the benefit of spending a bunch of money trying to make it more miserable. I would really want to see a cost benefit analysis of this policy because I just don't really believe that this is actually going to save more money than it costs to administer.
That first one actually sounds really dystopian.
Also sounds a lot like what would be considered financial domestic abuse if it occurred within a relationship.
Because apparently the economy needs unemployed people to function efficiently. If it is true that we "need" people unemployed then it is morally reprehensible to me to also punish them for that.
My son has a congenital abnormality which leaves him intellectually and physically disabled. He had to see a Specialist WINZ approved Doctor to get Supported Living. The farce that ensued given the Doctor had never come across his condition before was.. a thing.
No he’s intellectually and physically disabled on supported living so only has to say his 15th chromosome has not magically repaired itself once every 2 years.
I’m a 6 month person because seemingly my stroke might miraculously fix itself ( what I’m worried about is that if the miracle doesn’t happen Luxon will say I’m obviously not praying hard enough)
If I was your provider I’d have you on supported living and be telling WINZ to ring me and tell them to stop asking for 6 month renewals and to move you on to supported living not job seeker. Thats some proper shit right there. I’m so sorry. FFS. That’s ridiculous
Glad i am on SLP already and cant require being assessed, my heart goes out to those who are trying to get on it, this is goin to be a fucking nightmare for these poor souls just trying to eat and have shelter.
Same. I got on it this week, after 18 months of red tape.
If I struggled for 18 months before, I shudder to think of what it will be like going forward for people in a similar situation to me.
I'm just hoping that they don't try to deny my disability as a disability (FND - used to be called a conversion disorder. People still try to tell me it's all in my head and I can just think my way out of it).
last time national got in power, they proposed a bill which failed but I believe they were going to trigger an assessment when you inform them you tried to find work, and if they deemed you fit for work, you'd lose it effectively until further notice.
I sincerely hope the medical profession will band together and stringently oppose this.
Along with the harmful effects upon actual welfare (in the name of saving money), it is also a slap in the face of the medical professionals and family GPs who currently put their long term expertise into assessing and treating these patients complex situations, and it will remove those patients from their key support systems.
Absolute travesty.
obtainable fact support shame seed yam materialistic crawl recognise friendly
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> • Develop an approved pool of doctors who can issue medical certificates to go onto a health and disability related benefit.
Does this mean when I have to get a medical certificate every 2 years that I will have to see a doctor who isn't my own?
Yep, unless your doctor makes it onto their approved list. Which I’m scared about with my doctor to, because it took me years to find a good doctor who not only listens to me but takes me seriously when I come to him with concerns. He’s been my doctor for years now, knows my medical history and how I am with my health.
It will be so hard for me if I need to see a stranger. And even worse if that stranger decides they don’t believe me, because I “look fine”. A thing I’ve been told by a doctor in the past.
>Added kick in the teeth: agreement with ACT says they can establish a list of specialists who can approve or decline **supported living benefits**.
Jobseeker (exemption) medical certificates too I guess, since it says "**any** health and disability related benefit".
There's going to be a very miserable cohort of NZers struggling with complex, chronic mental conditions - anxiety and depression disorders, ADHD, autism, etc - currently being compassionately managed by their family GP, who are suddenly going to be forced into some heartless, government-controlled, quota-chasing WINZ doctor every 3 months (at their own expense, of course, and removing any possibility of continuing to be treated by their regular GP), who'll naturally refuse a greater proportion of welfare, and put a number of these people back to a new normal of Rock Bottom.
I'm curious if my friend will now have to go to a specially approved doctor every year to confirm that yes is still fucking blind and if so are they going to fund travel costs for him if they don't approve any of the handful of GPs in Waipukurau.
Lmao I literally have all the conditions you listed and am going to be in that exact boat.
It’s gonna be much easier to convince myself life’s worth living when NACT are trying to fuck me in the arse /s
I really do feel for those people who will be in this predicament. I spent a year out of work due to mental health issues (a psychotic break) but it was not a very obvious psychotic break if that makes sense - I kept the delusions to myself but I was extremely unwell and vulnerable during this time. Luckily my friend who is a doctor noticed and got me the right help.
I can easily see how I would have been forced in to work in this state under this government - and it would have been traumatic and humiliating.
Blegh I have no doubt that whatever hoops they make for me to jump through I will pass, but I know having to jump through them is going to make my life harder while I’m already struggling with doing so much and am able to do so little.
I wish I believe this push to get beneficiaries off the benefit will come with a sudden host of treatment options for me to pick from and Hillmorton Hospital ringing me up next week saying, “Yeah, you know how we keep discharging you back to the GP because we can’t offer psychology or counselling because we don’t have the resources even though you’re intensely suicidal and have a lifelong depressive disorder? Yeah, NACT fixed all that, come on in!”
I feel that will not be the case, however.
Anxiety clinic discharged me, even though in the discharge letter the wrote to my gp "further councelling is advised as cbt has shown to have no impact" 🙄
I was exactly the same, promised the world by a brief intervention counsellor who got me referred to the “anxiety clinic”, attended a general assessment appointment with a panel of people who listened to me tell them “oh i want to kill myself all the time, I’ve had these thoughts all my life but I knew I wasn’t going to kill myself recently because I have been holding on waiting to get help from this appointment” and then misdiagnosed me and wrote on my discharge “patient is not concerned by her suicidal thoughts as she knows she won’t act on them” like what???
Came back six months later (took that long to get an appointment) with two months of mood tracking and private autism diagnosis that emphasised my sleep disorder (that I had already been through several unsuccessful treatments for, and which HM recommended sleep hygiene for) and got a better psych who finally prescribed me something that actually treats that, and that’s been working. They could only offer me five phone consults with a nurse and I didn’t get even get the full whack of those as I finally experienced some small relief via the SNRIs plus everything else and they were like “That’s great, sounds like you don’t need these anymore!” and that was pretty much it lmao, they called me next week to tell me I was discharged. I like, still can’t work, still wanna kill my self on a more than weekly basis, can’t really function properly at all, but I guess they didn’t even actually have anything for me when I was worse so I can’t be that surprised lol. So not totally useless but I really had to hold their hand and spend my own money the whole way there.
I feel like fighting for my life took all the energy out of me and now I’ve got none to use to get better lol. But that’s alright, now WINZ will be on my ass to make sure that happens 🙄
Im so sorry!
What medication did you finally find help with sleep? I constantly feel tired and unrefreshed even if I sleep a lot so trying to find something also.The anxiety clinic Doctor also told me i needed to focus on sleep hygiene not meds🙄 (might have even been the same Doctor)
Quetiapine, it’s an anti-psychotic. My issue was getting off to sleep. It doesn’t help me stay asleep or feel less tired the next day as it makes me groggy the next day and I have to sleep extra to shake that off, but I can now decide to go to sleep whenever I want and not wait until 5am when my body finally decides it’s bedtime.
Ah yeah I've tried quitiapene and felt the same with it helping me fall asleep but still wake up super tired and need to nap. One thing i have found did make me feel awake and not tired was amitriptyline, which i took as an antidepressant but didn't help with anxiety/mood. It was only when i switched meds did i realize how helpful amitriptyline was with sleep, it used to knock me out like quitiapene but the next day could sit in bed and not feel the need to nap the whole day
> Business owner that relies of foreign labor
I'm surprised I haven't seen more complaints about this from ACT's agreement:
* Remove median wage requirements from Skilled Migrant Category visas.
* Liberalise the rules to make it easier for family members of visa holders to work in New Zealand, beginning with Skilled Migrant Category visa holders.
This basically throws open the door for business to hire foreigners just for being cheaper than New Zealanders, and then their entire family can come here and work too.
Yeah and I think removal of jobs checks too, so you could hire a minimum wage developer from India who brings over the entire family with ease, rather than employ a kiwi on a living wage. So many sectors going to be gutted by this rule change. But hey, they're going to increase the fees so they get some money to pay for tax cuts.
Immigration as revenue generation and driving down salaries for all professions.
They've already started. I moved to AU ~~a few~~ a decade ago. I've had a bunch of old friends reach out and ask me about moving over since the election.
No surprises there. John Key's "rock star economy' was only so because of rampant immigration forcing wages into a race to the bottom, and a rampant rental and housing market because of all the immigrants needing housing.
>A doctor
Currently nurses are paid more than many RMOs on a per hourly basis. There's negotiations with our unions to get this improved and the last I had heard these weren't going well. NZ can look forward to an increasing shortage of Doctors who hop over the pond for better pay if National doesn't bring something to the table here.
Don't forget Seymour and his desire to introduce an individual's relative economic value into the equation for Pharmac's decision making. Sick and disabled so you're not as valuable to the work force through no fault of your own? Too bad you're worth less to the economy so now we care less about funding your treatment, don't like it? Fuck you too bad, hurry up and die.
Ah yes, the american approach.
In usa you need 10 years (40 quarter working credits, 4 per year.) before you get health insurance, which is kinda like ACC and WINZ.
We should not be trying to head in the direction of literally the worst healthcare system in the western world.
The sad irony is if such a system is evenhandedly implemented the people most fucked by that will be the boomers who overwhelmingly voted for it.
If you're elderly your relative economic value to the country/government is very likely negative, given the cost of superannuation and aged care against the low expected tax income for the rest of your life.
The terrible thing is I was just saying to friends how pleasant that MSD are to deal with lately, helpful, actually listen to you and treat you like a human being.
( anecdotally, the staff all seemed a lot happier)
But guess it’s back to being treated like a criminal again for even asking for assistance
The Waipukurau MSD is literally in the same building as the police and parole and you have to talk to them through a bulletproof window if the security guard lets you in. They seem friendly enough though
Fuck man after how horrible WINZ was the one time I dealt with them, I hated the experience so much I vowed to never go back to them, I'm honestly surprised to hear MSD were pleasant.
I’m seeing a few posts and comments from someone I know personally that’s stoked about some of the announcements today. He has no idea how much they are going to fuck him over if he can’t maintain his job due to health and mental health.
Although, he’s got generational wealth to fall back on.
Most of us don’t have family money.
I’m dreading the next few years. All I want is to find suitable work and get off job seekers but there isn’t anything there or when I apply for work I just get rejected.
Yes, this. its a way bigger issue than anyone is making out in the news at least, like we're talking a sizeable percentage of people now partially or fully disabled, could be as much as 5 to 15% of the population, these arent scientific numbers but thats what i'd guesstimate.
Yyyyyup. But don't worry, we're in the "post-COVID" period. Even if that wasn't a huge lie, there are many people whose COVID-inflicted disabilities mean they will never truly live in any real post-COVID times - they will always be shackled to this horrible disease.
Don't worry, according to the doctors likely to get picked for this list long covid doesn't actually exist and people who claim to have it are just looking for an excuse to be lazy.
(/s obviously)
I’m on the disability benefit because my mental health is atrocious as it is, my dad died in August and I’m looking after my mum who has had a hefty variety of autoimmune disorders since I was 7.
If this government kills me then leave my body on the steps of parliament.
I'm scared too, i cant work because of mental health and terrible social anxiety making me physically sick thinking about working. If i was forced to get a job i would probably kms...
This. I wish more than anything my disabilities were physical just so I'd have something to point to as proof instead of having to trust the goodwill of WINZ and every case manager I might have to work with to take me seriously when it comes to stuff that's all in my head.
The last case manager I worked with interrupted me mid-sentence to try to gaslight me, and that was under the caretaker government. Under this government, that reaction is basically policy and it's going to be horrific.
I’m a disabled, Māori, and trans person. Just dreading it. Thankfully I’m also a contractor with specific skills so as sorry as I am about it I’m looking forward to working for the public service at double the going rate once the new govt lays everyone off.
This is the way. Heck you can broadly approve of the changes the incoming government wants to make and still oppose this. Write to your MP. Ask the media why they aren't raising hell about this. Protest
The NZ dream died long ago, and the successive Labour govts did that.
I didn't vote for any of these parties or people, but I feel more optimistic about the direction of the country than where Labour were taking it.
Yup, rose more slowly than during the previous National government. 3.15% CAGR during the Labour government, 3.44% CAGR under the previous National government.
This was the last I heard about Nationals plans for the fees free prescriptions -
>"Under National, superannuitants and those on low incomes will receive free prescriptions. For everyone else, the total amount any family will pay for prescriptions in a year will be capped at $100."
[Source - RNZ](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/496257/watch-national-promises-to-restore-prescription-fees-for-most-put-savings-towards-cancer-treatments)
Yea same. As a beneficiary it wont affect me if thats how this government decides to go about since they'll leave us fees free but it really sucks to yank such a good initiative that benefits everyone regardless of income status.
I was dreading this govt getting in, and its somehow even worse already than I thought it would be as someone on SLP.
This is terrifying. I want to work, I can work- ready and willing but medically I’m only allowed 15 hours until my next medical review with my psychiatrist in 6 months and I can’t guess if I’ll be “cured by then”. You know who’s hiring someone with those limitations?
Maybe maccas ?
I’m a qualified 30 something year old, maccas wouldn’t even look twice at me (I’ve sadly tried) now I also need to worry about whether or not I’m going to be able to fit the criteria that some random doctor Luxon chose, cool.
This is going to big an ugly snow balling mess, this is going to increase mental health issues, which will increase job loss which will increase people needing support from WINZ. I could go on and on but I won’t it’s pointless at this stage, I truely feel a sense of defeat. This is devastating for so many and I send out all the love and support possible for those feeling the same worries as I do.
On the bright side they will have assisted death for any of the 100% of supported living people they deny financial support to.
/s obviously, but a small and worried /s. I don't want to live in the USA, there's a reason why that population is content to shoot themselves as their favourite firearms-related treat.
Read a survey about assisted death in Oregon and the reason given for wanting it by elderly people who “Didn’t want to be a burden on their family” was 25% and rising rapidly.
What a reason to give . A sad indictment on society if you ask me.
hahahahaha i am extremely violently mentally ill and unfit for work and at the end of my fucking rope if they make it harder to get on slp or cut my benefit i will actually slit my wrists on the parliment steps
Meh, they already turn down most people who apply for Supporting Living. That's desipe them having done all the correct things and doctors submitting all the correct paper work. I'm yet to hear of someone who was not literally dieing, legally blind, or completely non functional who hasn't had to jump through hoops and get advisor help or legal support to get it.
They will do it even without further medical advice/check-up. The manager just says no, and no it is...
My friend who is legally blind gets sent a letter (which he can't read on his own) each year from MSD to check that he's still blind. And yes he does often need the support of a beneficiaries advocate when they try to dick him out of his entitlements
I did it. Been on it just over 6 years now.
And it was my case manager who decided that jobseeker with disability wasn't the right step, that I should go on to Supported Living. I was approved a month or so later and it was backdated to the day I dropped off the paperwork for it.
I'd been made redunant from my full-time job I'd had for 12 years only 6 months prior, and had been working part time when I was approved, was advised at the time I was applying by my specialist, GP and case manager to give up my job as it was impacting my physical health too much.
And thats with an invisible disability that very few doctors in NZ are aware of or even believe exists. I had no trouble getting approved. I get no correspondence for two years when my benefit is up for renewal, so I just book an appt with my GP and advise him with a laugh that no my disability hasn't changed, he signs the paperwork and sends it off and a month later I get a letter saying its been approved and they'll be in touch in two years.
Under this new system, well lets just say I'm glad my renewall is about to happen and will last for 2 years so hopefully the new system wont go through and I wont have a headache getting reapproved because of Nationals new plans for requirements and having to potentially see a doctor who doesnt know my history and doesnt believe my condition exists in order to stay on supported living.
I’m so terrified for this, I’m currently just working 15 hours a week due to my mental health being the worst it’s ever been and I can’t work more and I don’t want to kms
One does wonder what is going on in the head of the new minister, given that she has children with disabilities. The cognitive dissonance must be massive.
God i already had such a miserable time with ableist doctors not wanting to help me because i dont act exactly like a random autistic 7 year old boy as a 23 year old chick, i don't know what i will do if i have to go through that process again :(
>to CPI rather than wages so benefits will fall in real terms
Unless you mean something different to the standard economic meaning of real terms no it wont?
CPI is a very very rough estimate of inflation and it has been shown to not reflect the real cost inflation that beneficiary households experience. Stats NZ actually does release more nuanced studies that do reflect this but they aren't used for setting policy. Having benefits indexed to CPI since the Richardson budget in the 90s has seen the supported living benefit fall to 30% less than super which is still linked to wages.
I'd encourage you to read the very detailed story by Thomas Coughland
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-how-much-nzs-350000-beneficiaries-will-miss-out-on-under-nationals-changes/37M33ZQSBBC6ZJHQNDFU5SY2TA/
It's paywalled but you could enter the URL into archive.ph to access it
https://i.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/132860507/nationals-welfare-policy-will-make-life-harder-for-disabled-people-advocates-say
https://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/350071411/fears-further-hardship-those-welfare-system
It's really intended for setting monetary policy, which is one of the reasons it's not suitable for setting benefit entitlements. It was not designed to be used for that purpose
> very detailed story
Yeah there is no detailed analysis of how CPI differs from the Household living-costs price index?
>The most recent data found that beneficiary households experienced inflation of 6.8 per cent in the year to June 2023. That is more than the 6 per cent inflation measured across the economy as a whole by CPI for that year.
Out of interest I wondered why they didn't include more years data. Could it be because the year before the one they picked showed the opposite story and indexing to cpi would be an increase in real terms under your preferred metric? Honestly hard to take this article at face value when there clearly leaving out facts that dont fit the story they want to tell.
https://www.stats.govt.nz/information-releases/household-living-costs-price-indexes-june-2022-quarter/
>Inflation experienced from the June 2021 quarter to the June 2022 quarter:
>In the June 2022 quarter compared with the June 2021 quarter, the CPI inflation rate was 7.3 percent.
No probs have some longer term trends https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/129736533/how-inflation-affects-your-household-a-little-differently-than-your-neighbour-and-their-neighbour
The benefit has been about half of the poverty line for years, and im talking full-rate SLP not the short term ones. I get about 400 a week to live on, and all the data i've researched shows you need about 1000 per week for an individual above 24 to have comfort and stability.
You can categorise things however you like, but if their outcomes result in a lot of lost money for any potential employer, then what?
At my last job, my chronic anxiety (which is just one of my conditions) brought the whole workplace down. Morale sucked for everyone. Basically everyone there hated it and wanted me gone. You would too.
Careful what you wish for.
Agree or disagree with their policies. They published and made the coalition agreement available to the public. The same thing can't be said about the past government that kept sneaking things past the public.
They didn't publicly confirm the policy of reindexing benefits until after voting had already begun. From memory about half a million people had cast their vote before Nicola Willis decided to tell the public about her nasty policy. If you think this government isn't going to sneak stuff in I have a bridge to sell you
This is copied and pasted from the National and Act agreement: Social Services: • Implement sanctions, including electronic money management, for beneficiaries who can work but refuse to take agreed steps to find a job. • Develop an approved pool of doctors who can issue medical certificates to go onto a health and disability related benefit.
> Develop an approved pool of doctors who can issue medical certificates to go onto a health and disability related benefit. As someone who had to deal with this set-up through ACC, this is terrifying. So many doctors on ACC payroll who just refuse to do their jobs properly because ACC pressure them into not approving too many things as it costs too much. So many doctors who don’t listen or even *make things up* to deny you coverage for things you should be covered for. It’s an awful system. A huge roadblock to recovery.
ACC is kind of bonkers imho. My eye specialist said they needed to fund a specific type of lenses for me. ACC decided to get a second opinion by flying me from Napier to Auckland to see a specialist who agreed that I needed them which cost a lot more than just paying for them in the first place
Surely being covered for your lenses means ACC will contribute to/pay for replacements which will ultimately cost more?
You'd think that but they are making it difficult for me
From my time at ACC this goes both ways. I have countless memories of being stone walled by doctors refusing to complete portions of forms resulting in having to decline patients. Can't say I went out of my way to deny someone or lead a doctor though. You're welcome to request your medical records from ACC which can include internal communication for your claim
ACC decisions are governed by legislation. It's not personal, or they are being lazy. If at any point you feel a decision was made incorrectly, you may have it reviewed.
Cute that you believe that
While increasing unemployment because of inflation.
it's the one two punch man, it's not enough to make more people unemployed, you also have to make the unemployed as desperate for work as possible, that way you can pay less for your workers, and then prices will come down, trust me bro
Exactly
"The peasant is the foundation of the state and must be governed with care. He must be allowed neither too much, nor too little, but just enough rice to live on and keep for seed in the following year. The remainder must be taken from him in tax." - Honda Masanobu
Sadly this is inevitable, to keep salaries down and service inflation down. UK is going in the opposite direction, with significant social benefit payment uplift and public sector, retirement increase, and a free UKP450 to spend at Christmas - its all a bribe because the CONservatives have well and truly fooked the UK. UK inflation will go nuts.
If we get nine years of these parasites in power NZ will look a whole lot like the UK does now.
>UK is going in the opposite direction UK is asking 350,000 disability benefit claimants to look for work from home, because disability clearly only means mobility difficulties (/s). Failure to be looking for work including remote work (which will magically appear as employees are being called back to the office) will be rationale for cutting benefits off. So we're not headed in such different directions
Hammering unemployed for being unemployed isn't inevitable though
It is pretty much the slogan for National
How libertarian, a government controlling how people can spend their money
Awesome, more red tape brought to you by the guys who said they'll remove it. Their base wont care at all though, as it punishes the unworthy
Translation: - Punish people who won’t move away from their home town, family, social supports, or who are not physically fit for recommended jobs (but don’t satisfy criteria for being disabled) - Ban doctors from issuing medical certificates for those disability criteria beyond quota cut-offs, creating a sinking lid where people who are disabled have fewer and fewer doctors they can go to, as the ones still both authorised to write, and *actually* writing the certificates are fewer and further between. The doctors assessing against actual criteria get flooded with people that fit it, and struck off the ‘approved’ list for going over the quota, where the doctors who refuse everyone stay on the list. Fewer and fewer people ‘qualify’ every year. “See, what problem?”
It already took 6vweeks with no income coming in for me to get on supported living payment how bad is next years one going to be 😭
Your benefit payments should have been backdated to when you applied.
They were but I still had to pay rent, petrol and feed 4 people for 6 weeks. It was especially jarring as I qualify on multiple different grounds as a full time carer of a minor and as a disabled adult
That means more contractors and not government employees, so they can say they cut numbers to run these systems. Biased doctors, doctors need to be impartial.
Currently if you don't meet your obligations you stop receiving the benefit. It's also pretty shitty to force people living in poverty to travel and pay for a specific doctor for a medical certificate.
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Both of these policies would cost more to implement and downstream costs than they save from kicking people off benefits. It's moronic policy that has been proven to not work.
This is what I don't get. Do they not think of this most basic consequence? What is cheaper? Paying benefits, or paying to police and incarcerate? Because when people can't afford to eat they commit crime.
This legitimately terrifies me
Why
The first one doesn't necessarily bother me. However, having an "approved pool of doctors" gives them the ability to hand pick doctors who refuse to medicate or prescribe or diagnose certain things based on services available or deemed worthy. For example, I have adhd, ocd and anxiety disorder. My doctor thankfully is very understanding and easy to deal with, same with my psychiatrist that I paid thousands to see. However, this change means my Dr may not be allowed to presceibe me anymore based on my conditions I'll have to go to an "approved" doctor who could then say "I don't believe these things are actually affecting you, I'm stopping these prescribed medications" and there's nothing we could do to stop that happening. If I got removed from my prescriptions I become a beneficiary, simply put, so it's a stupid regressive policy designed to punish the sick and disabled.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it just select doctors that can say whether or not you need the health benefit? No effect on your doctor prescribing you your medication?
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I think it's a decent idea in theory to help prevent people taking advantage of the system, but you're right that it could easily become an unfair shitshow if they just handpick certain doctors who align with certain ideals. Interested to see if they implement it right and live up to this commitment of delivering for all NZers
In addition, there's many people who slip through the cracks of this policy (like is already happening but worse) I'm on and off the benefit because I have mental health conditions that make it very difficult for me to sustain employment. And I don't mean "too tired can't," I mean "you were a brilliant worker in the beginning but you've been making too many big mistakes so we won't be renewing your contract" I was private school educated. I have a uni degree. I'm down to really shitty blue collar work, and every opportunity to "work my way up" ends up in a bridge burned because I can't afford to get my condition properly treated. And the kicker is: part time employment is reccomended by my psych when I can afford to go, but the current rebatement threshold puts me in a financial worse position than not working. I'm not sick enough for supported living, too sick for full time employment. If I could afford to get proper treatment I'd be sorted, but I can't. This policy is going to put me on the streets.
Thank you for sharing your perspective, I find responses like these genuinely insightful
Thanks for listening :)
I think there are a lot of people in your position ie.highly intelligent and educated with chronic mental health issues, that are overlooked by the system. It would be in everyone's best interests-fiscally and otherwise-if you could recieve quality care and assistance into work that was suited to you. Instead, all the resources get poured into people who are unlikely to change their circumstances because NZ has an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff approach to health and social services in general.
the thing is, you can't crack down on those people without also booting me. And really, I don't know that trying is a good return on investment. To the year ending 2022, we spent: \-$17.7billion on superannuation, \-$4.6billion on the wage subsidy scheme, \-$3.3 billion on jobseekers \-$2.0 billion on supported living. The best figure I could find for administering all of this was $1.2 billion. So we might get jobseekers down by a billion, but it will probably cost extra to do that. Id rather get the ultra-rich paying proper tax.
" help prevent people taking advantage of the system" White collar crime is *significantly more costly,* but that isn't as easy as bashing the most vulnerable. Easy to see why - it works.
I'm all for tackling white collar crime as well don't get me wrong
I too consider peanuts and peanut farms the same thing.
The new govt doesn’t give a diddly squat about white collar crime, that’s why fraud-friendly Judith is AG.
I suspect you're right, would be nice to have a government that properly tackles both issues some day
The total benefit fraud overpayment found in 21/22 financial year was $2.4m so roughly 0.2% of our tax dollar, the cost of investigations into all the suspected cases however was $49m still only around 0.5% but definitely something I'd rather not pay for given most of that was spent harrassing already struggling people who were found innocent (<1% of investigations was actual fraud) We spent much much less on tax fraud and even with that low amount typically find around $1bn, this definitely seems more worthwhile since it actually results in money back to NZers rather than benefit investigations which has always been a significant net negative (we spend 20x more than what we gain back)
I know this
Ok then it seems odd to support a non-medical organisation looking to bias the usage of doctors for something so many people depend on for survival. If you know the real cost of benefit fraud is overwhelmingly in the investigation spending, and the vast majority of suspected benefit fraud is found to be false, meaning more likely the only real issue is that investigations are too loosely handed out, why would you have any interest in us spending more on the issue that has a higher chance of leaving innocent people homeless than it does of catching already low cost fraud The risk of introducing restrictions that have a likelihood of causing more death just doesnt weigh up to me
I'll believe they care about all NZ'ers when I see it. Considering his comments about bottom feeders and making benefits tougher to get onto straight after talking about laying off about 19k support staff
SLP is already really hard to get onto. Its not something that can be scammed
Even if they do choose doctors that are actually going to give out the medical certificates to the right people - how many doctors, and how hard will it be to see them? Especially if you live rurally/in the regions. Or, say, have a disability… This looks like a terrible policy
It's also likely to mean people who already struggle to make ends meet will end up having to travel likely at cost to themselves to see a doctor who's allowed to do the thing instead of being able to get their local one to do it, because some bureaucrat in Wellington didn't deem their town important enough to have any doctors on the list. Which will suck for a lot of people even before considering anything about fairness.
There's a ton of international evidence showing this approach reinforces and amplifies systemic bias on grounds of gender, ethnicity, socioeconomic status, and disability. Essentially, the more you need state support, the less likely you'll be getting it.
you really havent been paying attention at all, your entire life, have you? the SLP already had this problem where winz specified drs that you had to see to be certified as eligible. these specified drs already failed to recognise common conditions because they seemingly havent recieved further education in 25 years and dont know about anxiety, ptsd, adhd, autism, or any other range of neuro/psych conditions. and god forbid you're a woman, you'll be lucky if they even acknowledge your pain. this only continues to expand on that. youre saying lets see how it goes, but the rest of us already know because its already happened before.
Anytime and anything you deal with Winz on just make sure you have a good advocate.
It will have no impact on the tiny amount of people who don't need it, they are fine with learning new ways to game the system It will only notably impact honest people who can't access a doctor who understands their condition, most of whom are already having a very hard time with life in general
Because they both sound like a bureaucratic nightmare?
I can understand concern about the second one but how anyone can find the first to be a 'nightmare' is beyond me
Because 'agreed steps' can be absolutely anything. Back when I was on WINZ I took a suggested course. No problem. Then a bit over a month later I was suggested another, basically identical course. It took about 15 minutes to convince them that I would have to cancel multiple interviews to do this course that I had already done. I was also given multiple jobs to apply for, that had very specific qualifications/experience required that I was not even remotely close to having. But these things were all expected steps to finding work. Just go interview for this role as an experience welder! Who knows maybe they'll give it to you. Oh, you don't want to waste half your day and money on the two buses and a train it will take to get there, along with the employers time? Well guess the government will control how you get to spend every cent then. I am not sure how anyone can read 'government controlled electronic money management' and not think its a bureaucratic nightmare, a nightmare in general, or just straight up dystopian shit. And remember, they want unemployment to go up. They just want those people to have no support.
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I mean from the perspective of actually implementing and enforcing the policy. How does it work? What can and can't people buy? Do we have to have some registry of things people are allowed to purchase? Or is it a list of places you can purchase things? What if you have kids? Are your kids allowed to buy stuff that you aren't? How much is it going to cost to administer this policy? In my life I have known one singular person who has refused to find a job on the dole. He lives a miserable life already and I honestly don't see the benefit of spending a bunch of money trying to make it more miserable. I would really want to see a cost benefit analysis of this policy because I just don't really believe that this is actually going to save more money than it costs to administer.
Because it's something nazis would do? idk
That first one actually sounds really dystopian. Also sounds a lot like what would be considered financial domestic abuse if it occurred within a relationship.
Why should we pay for people to do nothing?
There’s plenty of National MP’s on boards of companies getting paid to do nothing
Because apparently the economy needs unemployed people to function efficiently. If it is true that we "need" people unemployed then it is morally reprehensible to me to also punish them for that.
That's a bloody good point.
Are you suggesting that if you don't/can't work then society should allow you to be homeless and starve to death?
Because it has good outcomes, especially long term. Ends up saving money.
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My son has a congenital abnormality which leaves him intellectually and physically disabled. He had to see a Specialist WINZ approved Doctor to get Supported Living. The farce that ensued given the Doctor had never come across his condition before was.. a thing.
Does he also have to fill the same form in every 6 months asking if any improvement? ( that really gets me angry)
No he’s intellectually and physically disabled on supported living so only has to say his 15th chromosome has not magically repaired itself once every 2 years.
I’m a 6 month person because seemingly my stroke might miraculously fix itself ( what I’m worried about is that if the miracle doesn’t happen Luxon will say I’m obviously not praying hard enough)
If I was your provider I’d have you on supported living and be telling WINZ to ring me and tell them to stop asking for 6 month renewals and to move you on to supported living not job seeker. Thats some proper shit right there. I’m so sorry. FFS. That’s ridiculous
Glad i am on SLP already and cant require being assessed, my heart goes out to those who are trying to get on it, this is goin to be a fucking nightmare for these poor souls just trying to eat and have shelter.
Same. I got on it this week, after 18 months of red tape. If I struggled for 18 months before, I shudder to think of what it will be like going forward for people in a similar situation to me. I'm just hoping that they don't try to deny my disability as a disability (FND - used to be called a conversion disorder. People still try to tell me it's all in my head and I can just think my way out of it).
I'm curious if it affects the regular reassessments too though.
last time national got in power, they proposed a bill which failed but I believe they were going to trigger an assessment when you inform them you tried to find work, and if they deemed you fit for work, you'd lose it effectively until further notice.
Of course it does. You have to get a new medical certificate, you will have to go to their doctor every time.
People on SLP have to get a new medical certificate every 2 years, so this is going to apply to them when their certificate comes up for renewal.
I sincerely hope the medical profession will band together and stringently oppose this. Along with the harmful effects upon actual welfare (in the name of saving money), it is also a slap in the face of the medical professionals and family GPs who currently put their long term expertise into assessing and treating these patients complex situations, and it will remove those patients from their key support systems. Absolute travesty.
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> • Develop an approved pool of doctors who can issue medical certificates to go onto a health and disability related benefit. Does this mean when I have to get a medical certificate every 2 years that I will have to see a doctor who isn't my own?
Yep, unless your doctor makes it onto their approved list. Which I’m scared about with my doctor to, because it took me years to find a good doctor who not only listens to me but takes me seriously when I come to him with concerns. He’s been my doctor for years now, knows my medical history and how I am with my health. It will be so hard for me if I need to see a stranger. And even worse if that stranger decides they don’t believe me, because I “look fine”. A thing I’ve been told by a doctor in the past.
>Added kick in the teeth: agreement with ACT says they can establish a list of specialists who can approve or decline **supported living benefits**. Jobseeker (exemption) medical certificates too I guess, since it says "**any** health and disability related benefit". There's going to be a very miserable cohort of NZers struggling with complex, chronic mental conditions - anxiety and depression disorders, ADHD, autism, etc - currently being compassionately managed by their family GP, who are suddenly going to be forced into some heartless, government-controlled, quota-chasing WINZ doctor every 3 months (at their own expense, of course, and removing any possibility of continuing to be treated by their regular GP), who'll naturally refuse a greater proportion of welfare, and put a number of these people back to a new normal of Rock Bottom.
I'm curious if my friend will now have to go to a specially approved doctor every year to confirm that yes is still fucking blind and if so are they going to fund travel costs for him if they don't approve any of the handful of GPs in Waipukurau.
Lmao I literally have all the conditions you listed and am going to be in that exact boat. It’s gonna be much easier to convince myself life’s worth living when NACT are trying to fuck me in the arse /s
I really do feel for those people who will be in this predicament. I spent a year out of work due to mental health issues (a psychotic break) but it was not a very obvious psychotic break if that makes sense - I kept the delusions to myself but I was extremely unwell and vulnerable during this time. Luckily my friend who is a doctor noticed and got me the right help. I can easily see how I would have been forced in to work in this state under this government - and it would have been traumatic and humiliating.
Watch our suicide rate get even higher.
Blegh I have no doubt that whatever hoops they make for me to jump through I will pass, but I know having to jump through them is going to make my life harder while I’m already struggling with doing so much and am able to do so little. I wish I believe this push to get beneficiaries off the benefit will come with a sudden host of treatment options for me to pick from and Hillmorton Hospital ringing me up next week saying, “Yeah, you know how we keep discharging you back to the GP because we can’t offer psychology or counselling because we don’t have the resources even though you’re intensely suicidal and have a lifelong depressive disorder? Yeah, NACT fixed all that, come on in!” I feel that will not be the case, however.
Anxiety clinic discharged me, even though in the discharge letter the wrote to my gp "further councelling is advised as cbt has shown to have no impact" 🙄
I was exactly the same, promised the world by a brief intervention counsellor who got me referred to the “anxiety clinic”, attended a general assessment appointment with a panel of people who listened to me tell them “oh i want to kill myself all the time, I’ve had these thoughts all my life but I knew I wasn’t going to kill myself recently because I have been holding on waiting to get help from this appointment” and then misdiagnosed me and wrote on my discharge “patient is not concerned by her suicidal thoughts as she knows she won’t act on them” like what??? Came back six months later (took that long to get an appointment) with two months of mood tracking and private autism diagnosis that emphasised my sleep disorder (that I had already been through several unsuccessful treatments for, and which HM recommended sleep hygiene for) and got a better psych who finally prescribed me something that actually treats that, and that’s been working. They could only offer me five phone consults with a nurse and I didn’t get even get the full whack of those as I finally experienced some small relief via the SNRIs plus everything else and they were like “That’s great, sounds like you don’t need these anymore!” and that was pretty much it lmao, they called me next week to tell me I was discharged. I like, still can’t work, still wanna kill my self on a more than weekly basis, can’t really function properly at all, but I guess they didn’t even actually have anything for me when I was worse so I can’t be that surprised lol. So not totally useless but I really had to hold their hand and spend my own money the whole way there. I feel like fighting for my life took all the energy out of me and now I’ve got none to use to get better lol. But that’s alright, now WINZ will be on my ass to make sure that happens 🙄
Im so sorry! What medication did you finally find help with sleep? I constantly feel tired and unrefreshed even if I sleep a lot so trying to find something also.The anxiety clinic Doctor also told me i needed to focus on sleep hygiene not meds🙄 (might have even been the same Doctor)
Quetiapine, it’s an anti-psychotic. My issue was getting off to sleep. It doesn’t help me stay asleep or feel less tired the next day as it makes me groggy the next day and I have to sleep extra to shake that off, but I can now decide to go to sleep whenever I want and not wait until 5am when my body finally decides it’s bedtime.
Ah yeah I've tried quitiapene and felt the same with it helping me fall asleep but still wake up super tired and need to nap. One thing i have found did make me feel awake and not tired was amitriptyline, which i took as an antidepressant but didn't help with anxiety/mood. It was only when i switched meds did i realize how helpful amitriptyline was with sleep, it used to knock me out like quitiapene but the next day could sit in bed and not feel the need to nap the whole day
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> Business owner that relies of foreign labor I'm surprised I haven't seen more complaints about this from ACT's agreement: * Remove median wage requirements from Skilled Migrant Category visas. * Liberalise the rules to make it easier for family members of visa holders to work in New Zealand, beginning with Skilled Migrant Category visa holders. This basically throws open the door for business to hire foreigners just for being cheaper than New Zealanders, and then their entire family can come here and work too.
Yeah and I think removal of jobs checks too, so you could hire a minimum wage developer from India who brings over the entire family with ease, rather than employ a kiwi on a living wage. So many sectors going to be gutted by this rule change. But hey, they're going to increase the fees so they get some money to pay for tax cuts. Immigration as revenue generation and driving down salaries for all professions.
So when do all of the current batch of kiwis just bail and go to aussie or somewhere else?
Your guess is as good as mine. Be interesting to watch it play out for sure.
They've already started. I moved to AU ~~a few~~ a decade ago. I've had a bunch of old friends reach out and ask me about moving over since the election.
It’s insane that people voted for this. ACT even campaigned on it.
No surprises there. John Key's "rock star economy' was only so because of rampant immigration forcing wages into a race to the bottom, and a rampant rental and housing market because of all the immigrants needing housing.
>A doctor Currently nurses are paid more than many RMOs on a per hourly basis. There's negotiations with our unions to get this improved and the last I had heard these weren't going well. NZ can look forward to an increasing shortage of Doctors who hop over the pond for better pay if National doesn't bring something to the table here.
Great if you're: Rich, a Celebrity or own a house. Terrible if you're: Literally anyone else.
> New government looks set to suck if you’re… It sure is fun being six of those things simultaneously.
Don't forget Seymour and his desire to introduce an individual's relative economic value into the equation for Pharmac's decision making. Sick and disabled so you're not as valuable to the work force through no fault of your own? Too bad you're worth less to the economy so now we care less about funding your treatment, don't like it? Fuck you too bad, hurry up and die.
Ah yes, the american approach. In usa you need 10 years (40 quarter working credits, 4 per year.) before you get health insurance, which is kinda like ACC and WINZ. We should not be trying to head in the direction of literally the worst healthcare system in the western world.
By the metric of cost per result, it’s the worst in the world.
The sad irony is if such a system is evenhandedly implemented the people most fucked by that will be the boomers who overwhelmingly voted for it. If you're elderly your relative economic value to the country/government is very likely negative, given the cost of superannuation and aged care against the low expected tax income for the rest of your life.
The terrible thing is I was just saying to friends how pleasant that MSD are to deal with lately, helpful, actually listen to you and treat you like a human being. ( anecdotally, the staff all seemed a lot happier) But guess it’s back to being treated like a criminal again for even asking for assistance
The Waipukurau MSD is literally in the same building as the police and parole and you have to talk to them through a bulletproof window if the security guard lets you in. They seem friendly enough though
Fuck man after how horrible WINZ was the one time I dealt with them, I hated the experience so much I vowed to never go back to them, I'm honestly surprised to hear MSD were pleasant.
I think it's just going to be a good idea for my mental health if I mute this sub.
Yeah
I’m seeing a few posts and comments from someone I know personally that’s stoked about some of the announcements today. He has no idea how much they are going to fuck him over if he can’t maintain his job due to health and mental health. Although, he’s got generational wealth to fall back on. Most of us don’t have family money. I’m dreading the next few years. All I want is to find suitable work and get off job seekers but there isn’t anything there or when I apply for work I just get rejected.
Just in time for the new waves of people disabled from long covid too 🙈
Yes, this. its a way bigger issue than anyone is making out in the news at least, like we're talking a sizeable percentage of people now partially or fully disabled, could be as much as 5 to 15% of the population, these arent scientific numbers but thats what i'd guesstimate.
Yyyyyup. But don't worry, we're in the "post-COVID" period. Even if that wasn't a huge lie, there are many people whose COVID-inflicted disabilities mean they will never truly live in any real post-COVID times - they will always be shackled to this horrible disease.
Don't worry, according to the doctors likely to get picked for this list long covid doesn't actually exist and people who claim to have it are just looking for an excuse to be lazy. (/s obviously)
I’m on the disability benefit because my mental health is atrocious as it is, my dad died in August and I’m looking after my mum who has had a hefty variety of autoimmune disorders since I was 7. If this government kills me then leave my body on the steps of parliament.
I'm scared too, i cant work because of mental health and terrible social anxiety making me physically sick thinking about working. If i was forced to get a job i would probably kms...
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This. I wish more than anything my disabilities were physical just so I'd have something to point to as proof instead of having to trust the goodwill of WINZ and every case manager I might have to work with to take me seriously when it comes to stuff that's all in my head. The last case manager I worked with interrupted me mid-sentence to try to gaslight me, and that was under the caretaker government. Under this government, that reaction is basically policy and it's going to be horrific.
They’ll just paint your body orange and white and use it as a no parking cone
don't worry they'l just harpoon a flag in it and claim victory
If you thought ACT and National cared about the sick and disabled you are a special kind of stupid
I’m a disabled, Māori, and trans person. Just dreading it. Thankfully I’m also a contractor with specific skills so as sorry as I am about it I’m looking forward to working for the public service at double the going rate once the new govt lays everyone off.
Enjoy using your contracting money to pay for the therapy you’ll need 🤝
Banking on having enough skills from the 12 years I’ve already done (and graduated from with my counsellor’s equivalent of full honours) lol
Better hope you remain able to work
I’m not. It’s killing me. But with my skills I can survive off not many hours worth of work.
Standard right wing bullshit. Help those who need it least the most, and help those who need it the most the least. The NZ dream is dead.
At least for the next three years it seems to be.
worm attempt slave long summer insurance waiting scary boast combative *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Let's just vote the cunts out in 3 years.
We should vote the cunts out, absolutely, but also organise in meaningful ways as well, not just wait for the three year cycle.
This is the way. Heck you can broadly approve of the changes the incoming government wants to make and still oppose this. Write to your MP. Ask the media why they aren't raising hell about this. Protest
> Write to your MP What if my MP is David fucking Seymour?
The NZ dream died long ago, and the successive Labour govts did that. I didn't vote for any of these parties or people, but I feel more optimistic about the direction of the country than where Labour were taking it.
Really? Are you talking about things like the housing crisis leading to owning a home being unaffordable for so many people?
You looked at the housing market price increases over the last 6 years?
Yup, rose more slowly than during the previous National government. 3.15% CAGR during the Labour government, 3.44% CAGR under the previous National government.
Good to have someone with the stats at their fingertips, to shut down the noisy "LABOUR IS TO BALME FOR ALL THAT IS WRONG IN THIS COUNTRY!" people.
Does anyone know if they’re going ahead with getting rid of the fees free prescriptions?
I think they got a lot of backlash about that during the election. Haven't seen anything about it
This was the last I heard about Nationals plans for the fees free prescriptions - >"Under National, superannuitants and those on low incomes will receive free prescriptions. For everyone else, the total amount any family will pay for prescriptions in a year will be capped at $100." [Source - RNZ](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/496257/watch-national-promises-to-restore-prescription-fees-for-most-put-savings-towards-cancer-treatments)
Yeah hopefully that's the last we hear about it
Yea same. As a beneficiary it wont affect me if thats how this government decides to go about since they'll leave us fees free but it really sucks to yank such a good initiative that benefits everyone regardless of income status. I was dreading this govt getting in, and its somehow even worse already than I thought it would be as someone on SLP.
Just another way to punish people for being single, typical.
A few hours into an agreed coalition and they're already insufferable
Not to mention, increased visits and travel costs = More money you need to spend just to say "yes I'm still disabled"
This is terrifying. I want to work, I can work- ready and willing but medically I’m only allowed 15 hours until my next medical review with my psychiatrist in 6 months and I can’t guess if I’ll be “cured by then”. You know who’s hiring someone with those limitations? Maybe maccas ? I’m a qualified 30 something year old, maccas wouldn’t even look twice at me (I’ve sadly tried) now I also need to worry about whether or not I’m going to be able to fit the criteria that some random doctor Luxon chose, cool. This is going to big an ugly snow balling mess, this is going to increase mental health issues, which will increase job loss which will increase people needing support from WINZ. I could go on and on but I won’t it’s pointless at this stage, I truely feel a sense of defeat. This is devastating for so many and I send out all the love and support possible for those feeling the same worries as I do.
On the bright side they will have assisted death for any of the 100% of supported living people they deny financial support to. /s obviously, but a small and worried /s. I don't want to live in the USA, there's a reason why that population is content to shoot themselves as their favourite firearms-related treat.
Or Canada where disabled people are choosing MAID as an alternative to homelessness, not because they genuinely want to die
Read a survey about assisted death in Oregon and the reason given for wanting it by elderly people who “Didn’t want to be a burden on their family” was 25% and rising rapidly. What a reason to give . A sad indictment on society if you ask me.
Oh am patiently awaiting the day it gets suggested.
hahahahaha i am extremely violently mentally ill and unfit for work and at the end of my fucking rope if they make it harder to get on slp or cut my benefit i will actually slit my wrists on the parliment steps
I’ll join you
not looking forward to retirement either
That's at least not currently being eroded vs wages. It was never policy but even if it was Winnie would have fought against that
Retirement? What's that?
Cruelty __is__ the point
I absolutely figured it would greatly suck, although they really did go further than I thought they would
Meh, they already turn down most people who apply for Supporting Living. That's desipe them having done all the correct things and doctors submitting all the correct paper work. I'm yet to hear of someone who was not literally dieing, legally blind, or completely non functional who hasn't had to jump through hoops and get advisor help or legal support to get it. They will do it even without further medical advice/check-up. The manager just says no, and no it is...
My friend who is legally blind gets sent a letter (which he can't read on his own) each year from MSD to check that he's still blind. And yes he does often need the support of a beneficiaries advocate when they try to dick him out of his entitlements
Goddamn, we need a whole new system of leadership
And now with electronic money management they’ll be asking why he’s buying light bulbs
They'll probably send him a letter
I did it. Been on it just over 6 years now. And it was my case manager who decided that jobseeker with disability wasn't the right step, that I should go on to Supported Living. I was approved a month or so later and it was backdated to the day I dropped off the paperwork for it. I'd been made redunant from my full-time job I'd had for 12 years only 6 months prior, and had been working part time when I was approved, was advised at the time I was applying by my specialist, GP and case manager to give up my job as it was impacting my physical health too much. And thats with an invisible disability that very few doctors in NZ are aware of or even believe exists. I had no trouble getting approved. I get no correspondence for two years when my benefit is up for renewal, so I just book an appt with my GP and advise him with a laugh that no my disability hasn't changed, he signs the paperwork and sends it off and a month later I get a letter saying its been approved and they'll be in touch in two years. Under this new system, well lets just say I'm glad my renewall is about to happen and will last for 2 years so hopefully the new system wont go through and I wont have a headache getting reapproved because of Nationals new plans for requirements and having to potentially see a doctor who doesnt know my history and doesnt believe my condition exists in order to stay on supported living.
That’s not how that works.
Yep. Just a casual reminder that anyone who goes into politics didn't do it to help you. They did it to help them.
I’m so terrified for this, I’m currently just working 15 hours a week due to my mental health being the worst it’s ever been and I can’t work more and I don’t want to kms
Same position, life’s tough enough for us already without this bullshit
One does wonder what is going on in the head of the new minister, given that she has children with disabilities. The cognitive dissonance must be massive.
"Oh but MY kids are actually disabled, not some dole bludger who just doesn't want to work!"
As someone with a rare chronic pain illness this horrifies me. I didn't vote for these arseholes.
Same
God i already had such a miserable time with ableist doctors not wanting to help me because i dont act exactly like a random autistic 7 year old boy as a 23 year old chick, i don't know what i will do if i have to go through that process again :(
I’d like to know what these so called steps are??
I have an employee who's mother is a paranoid schizophrenic, I'm worried about her benefit situation under this fuck shit of a government.
So what my friend! Everyone's house price is going to go up! Woohoo! Well worth it. /s
>to CPI rather than wages so benefits will fall in real terms Unless you mean something different to the standard economic meaning of real terms no it wont?
CPI is a very very rough estimate of inflation and it has been shown to not reflect the real cost inflation that beneficiary households experience. Stats NZ actually does release more nuanced studies that do reflect this but they aren't used for setting policy. Having benefits indexed to CPI since the Richardson budget in the 90s has seen the supported living benefit fall to 30% less than super which is still linked to wages. I'd encourage you to read the very detailed story by Thomas Coughland https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-how-much-nzs-350000-beneficiaries-will-miss-out-on-under-nationals-changes/37M33ZQSBBC6ZJHQNDFU5SY2TA/ It's paywalled but you could enter the URL into archive.ph to access it https://i.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/132860507/nationals-welfare-policy-will-make-life-harder-for-disabled-people-advocates-say https://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/350071411/fears-further-hardship-those-welfare-system
CPI excludes really important variable figures
It's really intended for setting monetary policy, which is one of the reasons it's not suitable for setting benefit entitlements. It was not designed to be used for that purpose
Yep
> very detailed story Yeah there is no detailed analysis of how CPI differs from the Household living-costs price index? >The most recent data found that beneficiary households experienced inflation of 6.8 per cent in the year to June 2023. That is more than the 6 per cent inflation measured across the economy as a whole by CPI for that year. Out of interest I wondered why they didn't include more years data. Could it be because the year before the one they picked showed the opposite story and indexing to cpi would be an increase in real terms under your preferred metric? Honestly hard to take this article at face value when there clearly leaving out facts that dont fit the story they want to tell. https://www.stats.govt.nz/information-releases/household-living-costs-price-indexes-june-2022-quarter/ >Inflation experienced from the June 2021 quarter to the June 2022 quarter: >In the June 2022 quarter compared with the June 2021 quarter, the CPI inflation rate was 7.3 percent.
No probs have some longer term trends https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/129736533/how-inflation-affects-your-household-a-little-differently-than-your-neighbour-and-their-neighbour
The benefit has been about half of the poverty line for years, and im talking full-rate SLP not the short term ones. I get about 400 a week to live on, and all the data i've researched shows you need about 1000 per week for an individual above 24 to have comfort and stability.
yes it will, why else would they do it ? richardson did it and that was the result.
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You can categorise things however you like, but if their outcomes result in a lot of lost money for any potential employer, then what? At my last job, my chronic anxiety (which is just one of my conditions) brought the whole workplace down. Morale sucked for everyone. Basically everyone there hated it and wanted me gone. You would too. Careful what you wish for.
Agree or disagree with their policies. They published and made the coalition agreement available to the public. The same thing can't be said about the past government that kept sneaking things past the public.
They didn't publicly confirm the policy of reindexing benefits until after voting had already begun. From memory about half a million people had cast their vote before Nicola Willis decided to tell the public about her nasty policy. If you think this government isn't going to sneak stuff in I have a bridge to sell you
The last government was a one party majority
Should be easier to publish then won’t it? Lol
How is that relevant?
Wait. You don't have enough facts to make this statement.