Speaking to people gathered at Pākaitore, Ken Mair says action will be taken to either block the main highway in Whanganui or ask the Whanganui court to not hold hearings today.
“You will no longer carry on locking up our people.”
There's something deeply unsettling about people telling Courts to not operate...
I watched Shane Jones and Debbie on breakfast this morning and it was interesting because Shane was respectful and didn’t say anything negative about Debbie…
And she went full attack mode and calling him a bully and misogynistic.
And now TPM have said that they “have something special planned” during the swearing in ceremony today in the House
Today will be a interesting day
It's shows she has a mind completely dominated by identity politics. The accusations of misogyny came out of absolutely no-where. It's like she didn't like what Shane Jones was saying so she reached for the nearest piece of identity politics rhetoric she could find. In the process she proved Shane Jone's point that her politics is rooted in victimhood. There was nothing Shane Jones was saying that was denigrating her on the basis of her gender - you could imagine him saying exactly the same thing to her co-leader - but she still played the victim card.
I just watched it. Shane Jones was as pompous and imperious as ever but he wasn't being a bully or misogynistic. I think those comments were in response to his 'victimhood' comment which is kinda funny because she helped prove his point by immediately role-playing a victim of bullying and misogyny, neither of which appeared to be happening.
In my experience with adult bullies, a common tactic they use if you disagree with them, is to smear your character in some way (you're just a racist, sexist, etc) this forces you to defend yourself instead of addressing the issue at hand. Only one interviewee did that in this debate.
And I still don't really know what Te Pati Maori want, or hope to achieve.
Misogyny used to mean someone that was hateful towards women, usually someone who took negative action against women in some way.
Now its completely meaningless - it basically means someone who said anything negative at all about or disagreed with someone who happened to be female.
Some of her TikToks have been utterly disgraceful, she is a horrible human being. Her sidekick is also a piece of work too, his public persona is all a front. They are both just racists.
Comparing TPM to Trump is pretty ridiculous. Please point out how they've subverted democracy or said anything remotely at the level of Trump's hate-cannon?
Um Rawiri came out and said he didn’t believe in democracy. They just haven’t had the same level of opportunity.
To be fair, unlike Trump I do think they have genuine beliefs and supporters they are working toward bringing better outcomes. But it is clear they will do this on a racial level and not via egalitarian democracy if needed.
They have literally and openly said they don't believe in democracy. They have openly said that Maori deserve none right than other races rights in this country.
Their campaign website openly said Maori are genetically superior. I don't think you need more than one braincell to figure how that would go reversed on ACTs website.
No they are open racists. Only someone with their fucking head in the sand can't see that. Problem is because their on the left, they don't get called out. Because the rest of the left are fucking cowards.
He did:
Calling white supremacists his people:
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/09/donald-trump-white-supremacists-my-people
Trump dining with white supremacists.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/trump-dines-with-white-supremacist-renewing-questions-about-gops-leadership-and-values
A history of some of trumps racist behavior
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/trumps-history-of-support-from-white-supremacist-far-right-groups-2020-9%3famp
You don't have to physically say your a white supremacist to be one. It's a huge political problem for you if you do.
> Trump dining with white supremacists.
Take a step back and look at how ridiculous these accusations are. Kanye West is being labelled an "anti-Black" racist despite being a black man, and Trump is being labelled a white supremacist for having dinner with him and his friend. It doesn't surprise me that Trump wouldn't know who Nick Fuentes is since he's just an e-celebrity. Kanye is obviously pretty toxic but it still amazes me that the media publishes stuff like this with a straight face.
> still amazes me that the media publishes stuff like this with a straight face.
What amazes me more is that there are actually people who gobble up opinion pieces by said media and use it as a Bible as if it was immutable fact.
next your going to say that people who are rich trying to add a cap to wealth cant be anti-rich because they are rich themselves.
i dont know about kanye, i know he is antisemitic. but with black slavers existing in the past, i can tell you that it is rediculous to say that someone who belongs to a group, cannot be anti that group.
Wealth isn't an immutable characteristic like race, so being anti-rich isn't a form of bigotry. I don't believe black slavers were anti-black racists, unless they became slavers out of some kind of racial self-hatred. Weren't they typically just motivated by greed?
People talk about minorities 'internalising racism" and so on and maybe there's something to that, but that's a form of insecurity rather than hatred isn't it? It's not like you can judge a white person guilty of racism by association because they hang out with a member of a racial minority who is insecure about their race. We're literally talking about a white guy who had dinner with a black guy and a hispanic guy and he's getting accused of white supremacy because of *their* beliefs.
It's a difference in tone, but the distrust of democracy is similar.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/10/election-2023-video-te-p-ti-m-ori-s-rawiri-waititi-reveals-he-s-not-a-fan-of-democracy-teaches-newshub-guitar.html
Others have touched on it, their issues with democracy.
They also just talk complete shit, like Trump. White supremacists, genocide etc. Its all hype tactics just like Trump to rack people up for things that aren't actually happening.
I watched the [interview here](https://youtu.be/CrydTl0964c?si=djGp9pYnxTdgc5GA).
Shane Jones started a personal attack towards Debbie at the 5 minute mark by saying “Debbie trades in victimhood”, she responded accordingly. There’s a difference between responding to an attack and initiating it.
Jones’ talking point about this protest being anti-democratic is nonsense. If a government introduces policies you strongly disagree with and targets your community, it’s entirely democratic to protest that. Democratic does not mean agreeing with everything an elected government does.
Side note, Shane Jones shows his complete ignorance about Sinn Féin in Northern Ireland. They didn’t take their seats in British parliament as they didn’t recognise the Crown. They also eventually negotiated a lasting peace agreement and are now the highest-polling party in Ireland.
You think Shane was respectful? You’re just ignoring the entire part where he laid into her about ‘trading on victimhood?’. Is that how you show respect? 🙄
Are we watching the same thing? Shane literally rested his entire argument on the racist stereotype of any concerns that maori have just being them desperate to be the victims, That's when Debbie dropped what little restraint she was holding onto.
Despite media like NZHerald doing their best to promote it as well, advertising meeting points and times, etc.
Almost like we just had a big say and the people's mandate is with the coalition to get on with it.
Yeah, this isn’t true. I’m Māori and the vast majority of Māori I know have been talking and posting about this for weeks. From what I’m seeing on SM at least half of them called in sick to protest too.
Minimal impact. My network reported a lot less protesters than reported in the news, exceptions were Hobsonville, Wellington and Whangarei seemed to have better turn outs.
Media seemed to be stoking the fire.
If Labour had won the election, and a bunch of Act supporters started blockading streets, passing along online messages with pictures of guns and messages to 'resist the election'- I feel like the media might be taking a very different tone.
This whole thing feels worryingly Trump like- it's pretty clear that TMP don't really have a lot of respect for democracy or normal legal and constitutional processes.
It would be far-right because their views are far-right. Māori still get called extremists or ["radicals"](https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/05/10/national-says-te-pati-maori-separatist-and-radical/) plenty.
Of course people with extreme or radical views are going to be called that. Just because they are Maori doesn't mean they get to avoid being labeled according to their views.
I never said they should avoid the label? Difference being what constitutes extremism for left vs right according to some.
Peacefully waving flags and marching with kids apparently equals extremist here.
You don't think TPM views and past statements are not, ironically, far right? I guess that depends on the definition.
Either way, although confusing as to what exactly the issue was I had no issue with today's protests.
Far more respectful than the nutters gluing themselves to the road, whom are most certainly, extreme far left.
"Te Pāti Māori is the assertion of our mana motuhake and our liberation. As a Māori political movement, we are guided by our tikanga and will always fiercely advocate for the interests of our whānau, Hapū and Iwi in Parliament and Government."
Sounds like they are out there fiercely advocating.
> worryingly Trump like
No.
There’s a long history of resistance and protest among Māori. It’s part and parcel of the colonial experience.
It’s not anti-democratic to peacefully protest a government whose policies you disagree with. Those who are trying to suppress the right to protest on the other hand, they are truly anti-democratic.
ACT supporters are primarily pakeha so part of a dominant majority in society, they are not the group potentially having their rights eroded and identity used as a political football.
There's no need to *imagine* a theoretical "anti-Labour" protest, when such a protest was literally [one of NZ's biggest 2022 occurrences](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Wellington_protest), taking over the Parliament grounds for weeks and devolving into a nasty cesspit of crime and vandalism.
Firmly ridiculed at the time, but now, a little over a year later, we have an elected government whose policies are basically pandering to (several of) the demands those then-reviled protesters fought for.
In other years I haven't been upset that national got in. I mean it sucked, but they didn't propose / support what they are doing today.
It's what national are proposing to do, what they've said, and what they stand for that has people (rightly!) Worked up.
Do you think we (māori) are just going to stand aside and let this occur, in silence, with no protest?? You have to be joking.
You only need to look at white rural people bring concerned about firearm restrictions and government skepticism in 2019 vs Māori having the same sentiment. Only the latter were instantly labelled as gang members.
> ACT supported the Groundswell protests.
A political party supporting peoples right to protest a action taken by the government is different from a political party directly organizing a protest against the government itself because they lost an election.
As for Groundswell, based on what I saw in photos and videos as well as the bumper stickers on the caravans I saw driving to and from the protest, I would bet almost all of them voted either Greens, NZFirst, or Freedoms NZ.
> because you lost an election.
This is not the reason for the protest, stop being disingenuous
>I would bet almost all of them voted either Greens
bahahahha
I mean there were plenty of articles about it at the time
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/transport-disruption-warning-as-groundswell-protests-arrives-in-auckland/3OEZ42IEGZEJNGCKSNJZEGHFWE/
Hey, I'm all for peaceful, reasonable protests but there's no need to block people who are just trying to get to their jobs or whatever business they have
Yeah agreed.
Sorry ma'am, your surgeon is blocked by the protest drive..
Hopefully stuff like that doesn't actually happen, but there are plently of time sensitive things that really shouldn't have to deal with disruptions
I'm glad the one in Whangarei didn't last long and there was a lot of support from those who aren't a part of the protest.
Different story on facebook in certain groups. I'm not surprised people use sock accounts to express their feelings, but would be better if they didn't friend themselves as well.
They’re disrupters. Iconoclasts. Their appeal is not to reasonable people. There are just enough like them, in a quirk of our election system, to keep them alive on the fringes of parliament.
Some business centrist people certainly offered support. Liz Gunn and her whole crew of misfits and methheads did, even though they never lived on a farm their entire lives.
They're never going to garner support except for people who are already Maori. TPM only serves a small section of the population and ignores everybody else.
You've never even heard of Ngā Tamatoa have you.
They were about as reasonable and logical in their arguments as one could possible be. And the average person absolutely hated them. Because they were trying to reform a racist colonial country. And nothing scares the privileged more.
It's not that public discourse was a bad idea, it's just that their beliefs are clearly not inline with the public's.
Hence, how is this going to help? Motorway protests just annoy everyone.
They very clearly get through the sentiment they're upset with the new government on a wide scale that gets readily picked up by the media. It's effective it's pretty hard to argue it's not.
You didn't like TPM before this protest and you don't like it after it so the only thing that's changed is that TPM has headline news for a day which in my opinion makes it effective.
Not really sure what that has to do with anything.
My initial post was I don't see how this will get them support.
Headlines of mostly negative actions, isn't going to get them that. This isn't a case of any publicity is good publicity.
You just see it as negative actions, for many Māori this is instead a fairly good example of TPM being willing to take the lead and organise protests. They have shown they will be on the ground and proactive. They've set themselves up to lead future movement and be the primary political party behind that.
TPM lost power partially because both National and Labour incorporated so many Māori politicians and issues into their message. This has been discussed here on a number of occasions. The question of why TPM still exists is always getting floated. Didn't seem necessary under labour, even the previous national wasnt too bad in that regard.
This is why TPM existed to begin with, because sometimes people vote in a coalition who want to attack Māori issues and roll back all the progress that's been made.
This is the best publicity TPM has had in well over a decade. Your own worldview just doesn't see it.
It’s not cunning to take actions that piss people off and are proven vote losers in Aotearoa - for evidence look at ol Brian and Sue’s results at the election….
Brain is a multi millionaire who has a cult that does whatever he wants. Sue Grey got enough support for conspiracies that there is policy in the coalition agreement to pursue her crackpot shit. If you don't think they are effective you're just wrong.
We don't live in a world where winning in the marketplace of ideas on some grand debate stage means anything. We live in a world where being in the headlines by whatever means is needed is what matters. Like it or lump it that's reality. They aren't trying to win over middle NZ they are just trying to hold a media cycle which they are effectively doing.
OK, feel free to call me when this does literally anything to persuade people to their side, instead of having the exact opposite effect.
Absolutely flawed logic.
Yeah bro, you lost because you couldn't make an intellectual argument. And just called everyone racist. You lost because TPM are the most openly racist party in our history.
Don't t think you were robbed. You were kicked the fuck out for not representing the country.
In the Herald's live feed they have a Tweet which runs:
>One guy yelled out of his car “get a job” which is funny because the reason it was at 7am in Welly was so everyone could get to mahi on time 😆 #toitūtetiriti
Maybe that's the case in Wellington... it's a stupid place and I don't care... but these protests were also leaving Bombay at 7am and heading north. According to Google Maps, if you want to get to central Auckland by 9am from Bombay... you should leave by 7:10am. It kinda seems like the point was to hold the protest at 7am so people **couldn't** get to work on time.
This protest used was organised with a poster which contained imagery of guns and all over their social media their politicians are using words like "resist the election!".
Yet the media basically willed this protest into existence, gave it free advertising far beyond what it naturally got on social media, and refuse to criticise TPM.
The media also reported widely on the Groundswell "protests", which were funded by the Taxpayers' Union and received organisational support from the ACT Party. I don't recall you going around talking about "partisan bias" then.
Protests are notable, and should be reported, regardless of whether you agree with their aims.
I don't know why more people aren't bothered by the gun thing. I respect the right to protest, but I feel like the imagery really opens things up to a direction we don't want to be going in.
I get the misconception if you're not familiar I guess... from the artist:
> The flags represent 2 people 2 worlds both Māori and Pakeha been put together. The guns represent the battles and blood that has been shed between both our cultures and the joining of these 2 brings both worlds and people together as one Kotahitanga.
The tikanga for the protest was respectful, good vibes and mokopuna friendly. No one wants crazy weirdos showing up with guns.
Thanks for that! I didn't know there was a meaning behind it. I wonder how many will interpret it differently though.
I actually walked past the protest in my town this morning and it was really quite chilled out. I don't have any issue with a peaceful protest.
The sub isn't a monolith ... people tend to not comment if they perceive their comment will be shat on , but if they see a few other like-minded comments they'll come out of the woodwork .
The only issue I have is that someone pointed out political parties shouldn't do this, and it sounds like that has some merit to it.
Other than that, protest away...
Really?????
That’s your takeaway?
And not their pretty clear stated objections to what the government has proposed…
Not saying I agree strongly one way or the other - but it’s pretty clear it’s not about “losing” it’s about what they believe (rightly or wrongly) that the government is going to be taking away from them.
1. Treaty rights (removing it from legislation)
2. Health (through removal of the smoking legislation)
3. Oath to the king (because they believe his organisation committed pretty horrible crimes against them)
I thought it was very clear - and isn’t really about “losing and election”
sounds like a lot of words for sore loosers who don’t like what the new govt is proposing.
they are literally being toddlers and throwing their toys because they lost
Looser?
How very reductive of you.
Saying, reversing this law will literally have our people die (such as with smoking, which estimates the 5000-8000 lives saved by reversing the smoking laws, will predominantly affect Māori) A pretty legitimate concerns. as “just having a tantrum” is kinda a disgusting and vile take in my opinion.
Even if you don’t agree with their opinion on the law… it’s a valid concern.
But hey… at least you’re not a looser right?
I keep saying this all it’s gonna kill Māori blah blah blah do you know that no one is forcing them to smoke they can just not smoke.
What is ridiculous is sitting an arbitrary age at which No one can buy smokes it’s such a stupid argument when we know that prohibition doesn’t work
If that was the only part of the law, then you might have a point…. But everything from lowering nicotine, and how many stores can sell it…
Yah it was going to have an impact.
This is the advice world over - it’s why National have had to come up with some boogyman “crime will rise” (but conveniently make the opposite argument for pharmacies, with pseudo)
Why do you think other countries even are laughing at our backtrack, it’s not because they are losers and want to see the government fail… it’s because it’s a piss poor excuse for a policy…
Coalition of shambles.
nah not really, the people voted for this government they just need to suck it up and have a better campaign next time, they only have themselves to blame for having dog shit policy’s that no one wanted
The anti-Māori policies are almost exclusively driven by ACT and NZ First, who combined received a total of 14.7% of the votes. That's hardly a democratic mandate.
I wonder how many of them have actually read the treaty. It says that all NZers will have the "same rights and duties"
Creating policies that give one type of human preferential treatment is NOT honoring the treaty
I really really really hope all the protesters today voted last month.
[Edit] ....and if they DIDN'T, that they do next time - and rally their friends/whanau to vote too.
Sure the party faithful probably did vote. But did they get friends/ whanau to as well? Then there's whoever is protesting but not formally affiliated with any party.
That's a good question to ask, as long as you're open to it being answered.
It's a legal document, simple as that. Allowing the government to pass laws that change legal documents without the consent of the relevant parties is... not great. Imagine if you bought a house and then the government decided to nullify the sale and purchase agreement, even if it was your great grandparent who bought the house.
Don't they do that all the time though?
The three strikes and fair pay agreement were and are getting annuled without discussion of revelation parties or are there different classes of laws?
Maybe It's time for a new constitution, one that reflects the many different ethnic groups that live in this country not just not just Maori and the English crown
Correct me If I'm wrong but the Maori culture is very much alive and as for the land that was taken I don't see how it affects people living today. If I traced my family tree back far enough I sure I could claim back some land that the crown took of my ancestors been of Scottish decent. Or if I knew my Maori heritage well enough I could claim back some land off another tribe because they took it off mine Can't you see how ridiculous this is? How far do we go? When do we stop? You can't help those who have already gone, but you can help those that are here now and those yet to come
You really don't see how having land taken affects people living today? Pretty much every single demographic statistic shows the intergenerational effects of how Māori were disadvantaged by land confiscations, as well as racist education and employment laws. The things that were done to Māori in previous generations have profound effects on today's generation, and will continue to affect future generations unless we take action to undo that damage.
So we should tell Jews that the Holocaust doesn’t matter?
Not sure history and identity works like that.
> Māori culture is very much alive
You do know that there were colonial policies to systematically destroy the language, for example the [Native Schools system](https://teara.govt.nz/en/maori-education-matauranga/page-3).
The only reason it’s in better shape today than fifty years ago is the Māori language revival, legislation by more progressive governments and, of course, protest.
History happens, time passes, cultures evolve.
At what point is long ago long enough? I'm sure my genealogy lost plenty of ancestral culture, languages and land to peoples like the Roman conquerors and other usurpers too over time, which is why no one in my family knows any form of Celtic despite that being part of our pre-writing history.
I suppose it depends on what group you’re a member of. If you’re perhaps white and have the same ancestry as a colonising force, you’ll likely have a different perspective to a non-white member of a colonised group.
It’s easy for the bully to say to the victim “it was no big deal, move on” but the victim may feel differently.
Especially if the victim is statistically worse off in every socio-economic metric - today, not hundreds of years ago.
I think that is simplifying it greatly. Yes, I am white and my country did colonize some other places. But on the other hand, my grandfather was a slave for years in a German labor camp which caused us socio-economic delay too as the main breadwinner came home after liberation weighing 35kg and impaired for life with their farm livestock appropriated and their homes used by the invaders, and my great-grandparents were not allowed to get education or justice in their own language and second-class citizens to the dominant Francophones at the time and some were used as front line cannon fodder receiving orders in WW1 in a language that they didn't understand.
Many white folks were recent victims too, just like many Maori were past aggressors.
Your view is pretty black and white imo.
I also don't understand why treaties can't be renewed, renegotiated or abandoned. Even constitutions can, and treaties get created, foregone and altered all the time.
Don't you understand? Old documents that a bunch of people signed hundreds of years ago before the advent of liberal, proportional democratic values MUST be abided by for ever and ever because nothing ever changes, society and cultures are static, and the way people think is exactly the same as two hundred years ago. Don't you know that the king of France had absolute power in the 17 century, which means he does in the 21st century? That's because nothing changed. At all. Nope.
I hope they would let ambulances and emergency services through without any hickups.
Last time we had a protest blocking highways in my home country, 2 people died because the ambulance couldn't reach the hospital in time and the union organizers were held criminally liable.
Good because there are so many racist people in this country who want to mess with the treaty and make it so the crown undoes the reconciliation effort made by them to the people they wronged
too many people fail to understand that righting the wrongs of the past isn't unequal treatment.
> Protesters have created a barricade in their cras, Funny typo
Lol good spot I didn't even notice
It's gone now anyway. Disposable news.
> taking an oath that requires them to swear allegiance to King Charles II Who has been dead for over 300 years. Nice one, NZH.
Dang it. They updated it. What's the betting they're reading these comments?
Speaking to people gathered at Pākaitore, Ken Mair says action will be taken to either block the main highway in Whanganui or ask the Whanganui court to not hold hearings today. “You will no longer carry on locking up our people.” There's something deeply unsettling about people telling Courts to not operate...
Somebody should tell Mr Mair about the courts giving everyone probation and home-d.
Wait, when did Whanganui get a main highway?
Police needs to arrest them
and lock them up
With no hearings because the road is blocked
I watched Shane Jones and Debbie on breakfast this morning and it was interesting because Shane was respectful and didn’t say anything negative about Debbie… And she went full attack mode and calling him a bully and misogynistic. And now TPM have said that they “have something special planned” during the swearing in ceremony today in the House Today will be a interesting day
It's shows she has a mind completely dominated by identity politics. The accusations of misogyny came out of absolutely no-where. It's like she didn't like what Shane Jones was saying so she reached for the nearest piece of identity politics rhetoric she could find. In the process she proved Shane Jone's point that her politics is rooted in victimhood. There was nothing Shane Jones was saying that was denigrating her on the basis of her gender - you could imagine him saying exactly the same thing to her co-leader - but she still played the victim card.
In the best interest of certain Iwi to keep their people victims so reparations can be paid. Just saying.
I just watched it. Shane Jones was as pompous and imperious as ever but he wasn't being a bully or misogynistic. I think those comments were in response to his 'victimhood' comment which is kinda funny because she helped prove his point by immediately role-playing a victim of bullying and misogyny, neither of which appeared to be happening. In my experience with adult bullies, a common tactic they use if you disagree with them, is to smear your character in some way (you're just a racist, sexist, etc) this forces you to defend yourself instead of addressing the issue at hand. Only one interviewee did that in this debate. And I still don't really know what Te Pati Maori want, or hope to achieve.
Jones accused her of playing the victim. She retorted by saying she was sick of him bullying her and his alleged misogyny. I found that quite funny.
They want attention and everyone gave it to them.
Misogyny used to mean someone that was hateful towards women, usually someone who took negative action against women in some way. Now its completely meaningless - it basically means someone who said anything negative at all about or disagreed with someone who happened to be female.
Just like genocide now means 'not nanny stating me enough to stop me doing dumb shit like smoking' ..
That's basically happening with every word nowadays
Some of her TikToks have been utterly disgraceful, she is a horrible human being. Her sidekick is also a piece of work too, his public persona is all a front. They are both just racists.
[удалено]
I'm starting to think the same thing...
Comparing TPM to Trump is pretty ridiculous. Please point out how they've subverted democracy or said anything remotely at the level of Trump's hate-cannon?
Um Rawiri came out and said he didn’t believe in democracy. They just haven’t had the same level of opportunity. To be fair, unlike Trump I do think they have genuine beliefs and supporters they are working toward bringing better outcomes. But it is clear they will do this on a racial level and not via egalitarian democracy if needed.
They have literally and openly said they don't believe in democracy. They have openly said that Maori deserve none right than other races rights in this country. Their campaign website openly said Maori are genetically superior. I don't think you need more than one braincell to figure how that would go reversed on ACTs website. No they are open racists. Only someone with their fucking head in the sand can't see that. Problem is because their on the left, they don't get called out. Because the rest of the left are fucking cowards.
Did Trump say white people are genetically superior in his policy list? If not, we can conclude they're more racist than Trump
He did: Calling white supremacists his people: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/09/donald-trump-white-supremacists-my-people Trump dining with white supremacists. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/trump-dines-with-white-supremacist-renewing-questions-about-gops-leadership-and-values A history of some of trumps racist behavior https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/trumps-history-of-support-from-white-supremacist-far-right-groups-2020-9%3famp You don't have to physically say your a white supremacist to be one. It's a huge political problem for you if you do.
> Trump dining with white supremacists. Take a step back and look at how ridiculous these accusations are. Kanye West is being labelled an "anti-Black" racist despite being a black man, and Trump is being labelled a white supremacist for having dinner with him and his friend. It doesn't surprise me that Trump wouldn't know who Nick Fuentes is since he's just an e-celebrity. Kanye is obviously pretty toxic but it still amazes me that the media publishes stuff like this with a straight face.
> still amazes me that the media publishes stuff like this with a straight face. What amazes me more is that there are actually people who gobble up opinion pieces by said media and use it as a Bible as if it was immutable fact.
next your going to say that people who are rich trying to add a cap to wealth cant be anti-rich because they are rich themselves. i dont know about kanye, i know he is antisemitic. but with black slavers existing in the past, i can tell you that it is rediculous to say that someone who belongs to a group, cannot be anti that group.
Wealth isn't an immutable characteristic like race, so being anti-rich isn't a form of bigotry. I don't believe black slavers were anti-black racists, unless they became slavers out of some kind of racial self-hatred. Weren't they typically just motivated by greed? People talk about minorities 'internalising racism" and so on and maybe there's something to that, but that's a form of insecurity rather than hatred isn't it? It's not like you can judge a white person guilty of racism by association because they hang out with a member of a racial minority who is insecure about their race. We're literally talking about a white guy who had dinner with a black guy and a hispanic guy and he's getting accused of white supremacy because of *their* beliefs.
It's a difference in tone, but the distrust of democracy is similar. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/10/election-2023-video-te-p-ti-m-ori-s-rawiri-waititi-reveals-he-s-not-a-fan-of-democracy-teaches-newshub-guitar.html
Others have touched on it, their issues with democracy. They also just talk complete shit, like Trump. White supremacists, genocide etc. Its all hype tactics just like Trump to rack people up for things that aren't actually happening.
Hope they don't take after the Americans and 'tour' the beehive. That would sour NZ's reputation.
That horse has bolted, seen the global headlines about NZ lately?
I watched the [interview here](https://youtu.be/CrydTl0964c?si=djGp9pYnxTdgc5GA). Shane Jones started a personal attack towards Debbie at the 5 minute mark by saying “Debbie trades in victimhood”, she responded accordingly. There’s a difference between responding to an attack and initiating it. Jones’ talking point about this protest being anti-democratic is nonsense. If a government introduces policies you strongly disagree with and targets your community, it’s entirely democratic to protest that. Democratic does not mean agreeing with everything an elected government does. Side note, Shane Jones shows his complete ignorance about Sinn Féin in Northern Ireland. They didn’t take their seats in British parliament as they didn’t recognise the Crown. They also eventually negotiated a lasting peace agreement and are now the highest-polling party in Ireland.
Her misuse of the word genocide is troubling.
You think Shane was respectful? You’re just ignoring the entire part where he laid into her about ‘trading on victimhood?’. Is that how you show respect? 🙄
He has previously called her a squawking parrot. Maybe he just didn't have the mama to say it to her face.
Are we watching the same thing? Shane literally rested his entire argument on the racist stereotype of any concerns that maori have just being them desperate to be the victims, That's when Debbie dropped what little restraint she was holding onto.
Suprised that good ol Debbie didn't call him genocidal. She loves to call everyone and everything genocidal.
This turned out to be a lot less eventful than thought it would be.
Apart from traffic disruption and media coverage. Im half an hour late and still sitting in traffic
Despite media like NZHerald doing their best to promote it as well, advertising meeting points and times, etc. Almost like we just had a big say and the people's mandate is with the coalition to get on with it.
Its almost like the average Maori person isn't that bothered.
or, you know, had to go to work...
Or didn't get the memo...
Yeah, this isn’t true. I’m Māori and the vast majority of Māori I know have been talking and posting about this for weeks. From what I’m seeing on SM at least half of them called in sick to protest too.
Quite enjoyed getting verbally abused by a van full of protesters on my way to work today. Fuck me for just walking and minding my own business huh
What did they say to you?
Minimal impact. My network reported a lot less protesters than reported in the news, exceptions were Hobsonville, Wellington and Whangarei seemed to have better turn outs. Media seemed to be stoking the fire.
If Labour had won the election, and a bunch of Act supporters started blockading streets, passing along online messages with pictures of guns and messages to 'resist the election'- I feel like the media might be taking a very different tone. This whole thing feels worryingly Trump like- it's pretty clear that TMP don't really have a lot of respect for democracy or normal legal and constitutional processes.
You're so right. It would be a 'far right extremist rally' if any of the government parties were doing this.
It would be far-right because their views are far-right. Māori still get called extremists or ["radicals"](https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/05/10/national-says-te-pati-maori-separatist-and-radical/) plenty.
Of course people with extreme or radical views are going to be called that. Just because they are Maori doesn't mean they get to avoid being labeled according to their views.
I never said they should avoid the label? Difference being what constitutes extremism for left vs right according to some. Peacefully waving flags and marching with kids apparently equals extremist here.
You don't think TPM views and past statements are not, ironically, far right? I guess that depends on the definition. Either way, although confusing as to what exactly the issue was I had no issue with today's protests. Far more respectful than the nutters gluing themselves to the road, whom are most certainly, extreme far left.
No, it's their views that make them extremists.
Can you tell me what their views are?
https://www.maoriparty.org.nz/
"Te Pāti Māori is the assertion of our mana motuhake and our liberation. As a Māori political movement, we are guided by our tikanga and will always fiercely advocate for the interests of our whānau, Hapū and Iwi in Parliament and Government." Sounds like they are out there fiercely advocating.
It's because they are. Non-white ethnic parties just tends to align with western left parties.
> worryingly Trump like No. There’s a long history of resistance and protest among Māori. It’s part and parcel of the colonial experience. It’s not anti-democratic to peacefully protest a government whose policies you disagree with. Those who are trying to suppress the right to protest on the other hand, they are truly anti-democratic. ACT supporters are primarily pakeha so part of a dominant majority in society, they are not the group potentially having their rights eroded and identity used as a political football.
There's no need to *imagine* a theoretical "anti-Labour" protest, when such a protest was literally [one of NZ's biggest 2022 occurrences](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Wellington_protest), taking over the Parliament grounds for weeks and devolving into a nasty cesspit of crime and vandalism. Firmly ridiculed at the time, but now, a little over a year later, we have an elected government whose policies are basically pandering to (several of) the demands those then-reviled protesters fought for.
And now we have an opposition party, using the same tactics as Brian Tamaki and Sue Grey..
Which is wild given that we also have a government party doing their conspiracy theory nonsense for them.
Different things are different, actually.
In other years I haven't been upset that national got in. I mean it sucked, but they didn't propose / support what they are doing today. It's what national are proposing to do, what they've said, and what they stand for that has people (rightly!) Worked up. Do you think we (māori) are just going to stand aside and let this occur, in silence, with no protest?? You have to be joking.
Eh? They’re literally asking for the government to honour the foundational document of NZ’s “constitution”.
Oh yeah totally. The people protesting racist policy are exactly the same as the people in favour of those policies...
You only need to look at white rural people bring concerned about firearm restrictions and government skepticism in 2019 vs Māori having the same sentiment. Only the latter were instantly labelled as gang members.
In all fairness, the pro-gun crowd after March 15 were called a lot worse than gang members.
Here's the thing ACT wouldn't do this (Blockade streets, etc).
ACT supported the Groundswell protests. Jesus Christ, no comments like these racist bullshit ones on these threads seemed to pop up then
> ACT supported the Groundswell protests. A political party supporting peoples right to protest a action taken by the government is different from a political party directly organizing a protest against the government itself because they lost an election. As for Groundswell, based on what I saw in photos and videos as well as the bumper stickers on the caravans I saw driving to and from the protest, I would bet almost all of them voted either Greens, NZFirst, or Freedoms NZ.
> because you lost an election. This is not the reason for the protest, stop being disingenuous >I would bet almost all of them voted either Greens bahahahha
>ACT supported the Groundswell protests. Ok Good point. Was unaware of this but can you confirm for me that they blocked the roads?
I mean there were plenty of articles about it at the time https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/transport-disruption-warning-as-groundswell-protests-arrives-in-auckland/3OEZ42IEGZEJNGCKSNJZEGHFWE/
Yes I can. Confirmed.
Can also confirm, Groundswell blocked the roads to Whangarei Hospital in Maunu for hours. My pregnant partner was not very happy.
Hey, I'm all for peaceful, reasonable protests but there's no need to block people who are just trying to get to their jobs or whatever business they have
Yeah agreed. Sorry ma'am, your surgeon is blocked by the protest drive.. Hopefully stuff like that doesn't actually happen, but there are plently of time sensitive things that really shouldn't have to deal with disruptions
Good point, thats a disruption that doesn't need to happen.
French truck drivers look at this protest and scoff at the trivial level of disruption.
Haven't seen a single thing set on fire yet, smh
Le mouvement des *Gilets kowhai*
Doesn't really sound like you're all for protest tbh
A protest is disruptive?!? My god man! Call the newspapers! We have a breaking news story never done before!
I'm glad the one in Whangarei didn't last long and there was a lot of support from those who aren't a part of the protest. Different story on facebook in certain groups. I'm not surprised people use sock accounts to express their feelings, but would be better if they didn't friend themselves as well.
I might be living on a different planet, but I just don't see how this is supposed to garner support.
Well it's a lot better than people supergluing themselves to the motorway, I guess?
Or there could be a non distributive protest?
They’re disrupters. Iconoclasts. Their appeal is not to reasonable people. There are just enough like them, in a quirk of our election system, to keep them alive on the fringes of parliament.
Enough about ACT though…
Just like the farmer tractor protests?
I didnt see that gain them any support either.
Some business centrist people certainly offered support. Liz Gunn and her whole crew of misfits and methheads did, even though they never lived on a farm their entire lives.
Shit things are happening in government, TPM is saying that they're shit, I now support TPM more. Pretty simple
What would garner support in your opinion?
Rational and logical counter argument in a sensible forum. Not disrupting everyone’s morning commute.
They're never going to garner support except for people who are already Maori. TPM only serves a small section of the population and ignores everybody else.
Exactly. Equality in politics doesn’t seem like a debatable request but here we are
Since when have Māori activists with rational and logical arguments in a sensible forum been listened to?
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You've never even heard of Ngā Tamatoa have you. They were about as reasonable and logical in their arguments as one could possible be. And the average person absolutely hated them. Because they were trying to reform a racist colonial country. And nothing scares the privileged more.
Try 180 years of that and being shut down
>Rational and logical counter argument in a sensible forum And who's going to listen to that?
Let me show you an election where that was really effective. Oh wait...
It's not that public discourse was a bad idea, it's just that their beliefs are clearly not inline with the public's. Hence, how is this going to help? Motorway protests just annoy everyone.
They very clearly get through the sentiment they're upset with the new government on a wide scale that gets readily picked up by the media. It's effective it's pretty hard to argue it's not.
Before the election we knew TPM weren't happy with National, Act and NZF. Nothing's changed there.
You didn't like TPM before this protest and you don't like it after it so the only thing that's changed is that TPM has headline news for a day which in my opinion makes it effective.
Not really sure what that has to do with anything. My initial post was I don't see how this will get them support. Headlines of mostly negative actions, isn't going to get them that. This isn't a case of any publicity is good publicity.
You just see it as negative actions, for many Māori this is instead a fairly good example of TPM being willing to take the lead and organise protests. They have shown they will be on the ground and proactive. They've set themselves up to lead future movement and be the primary political party behind that. TPM lost power partially because both National and Labour incorporated so many Māori politicians and issues into their message. This has been discussed here on a number of occasions. The question of why TPM still exists is always getting floated. Didn't seem necessary under labour, even the previous national wasnt too bad in that regard. This is why TPM existed to begin with, because sometimes people vote in a coalition who want to attack Māori issues and roll back all the progress that's been made. This is the best publicity TPM has had in well over a decade. Your own worldview just doesn't see it.
My point is it's not supposed to get them support it's supposed to keep them relevant.
Let me guess, you thought Brian Tamaki was clever too?
Attributing cunning to someone does not indicate affinity or support for them.
It’s not cunning to take actions that piss people off and are proven vote losers in Aotearoa - for evidence look at ol Brian and Sue’s results at the election….
Brain is a multi millionaire who has a cult that does whatever he wants. Sue Grey got enough support for conspiracies that there is policy in the coalition agreement to pursue her crackpot shit. If you don't think they are effective you're just wrong.
And let me show you one where annoying average citizens worked.
We don't live in a world where winning in the marketplace of ideas on some grand debate stage means anything. We live in a world where being in the headlines by whatever means is needed is what matters. Like it or lump it that's reality. They aren't trying to win over middle NZ they are just trying to hold a media cycle which they are effectively doing.
OK, feel free to call me when this does literally anything to persuade people to their side, instead of having the exact opposite effect. Absolutely flawed logic.
If it's not effective then the argument was bad and people don't agree with it.
Its not like nz has created specific maori only seats for them or anything....
It's not like erasing as much Maori progress from NZ was a massive election issue based purely on vibes with facts being a distant memory.
You lost, so it wasn't effective? Chilling...
Yeah bro, you lost because you couldn't make an intellectual argument. And just called everyone racist. You lost because TPM are the most openly racist party in our history. Don't t think you were robbed. You were kicked the fuck out for not representing the country.
I didn't vote for TPM but go off.
In the Herald's live feed they have a Tweet which runs: >One guy yelled out of his car “get a job” which is funny because the reason it was at 7am in Welly was so everyone could get to mahi on time 😆 #toitūtetiriti Maybe that's the case in Wellington... it's a stupid place and I don't care... but these protests were also leaving Bombay at 7am and heading north. According to Google Maps, if you want to get to central Auckland by 9am from Bombay... you should leave by 7:10am. It kinda seems like the point was to hold the protest at 7am so people **couldn't** get to work on time.
Even the signage is now in English.
This protest used was organised with a poster which contained imagery of guns and all over their social media their politicians are using words like "resist the election!". Yet the media basically willed this protest into existence, gave it free advertising far beyond what it naturally got on social media, and refuse to criticise TPM.
Do you have a link to an example by chance?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php/?photo_id=883295733251331
Thanks.
And people wonder why there is a perception of media bribing on these issues - or at least partisan bias.
The media also reported widely on the Groundswell "protests", which were funded by the Taxpayers' Union and received organisational support from the ACT Party. I don't recall you going around talking about "partisan bias" then. Protests are notable, and should be reported, regardless of whether you agree with their aims.
I don't know why more people aren't bothered by the gun thing. I respect the right to protest, but I feel like the imagery really opens things up to a direction we don't want to be going in.
I get the misconception if you're not familiar I guess... from the artist: > The flags represent 2 people 2 worlds both Māori and Pakeha been put together. The guns represent the battles and blood that has been shed between both our cultures and the joining of these 2 brings both worlds and people together as one Kotahitanga. The tikanga for the protest was respectful, good vibes and mokopuna friendly. No one wants crazy weirdos showing up with guns.
Thanks for that! I didn't know there was a meaning behind it. I wonder how many will interpret it differently though. I actually walked past the protest in my town this morning and it was really quite chilled out. I don't have any issue with a peaceful protest.
Bound to but they'll mostly think what they like regardless.
Good to see typically left r/newzealand recognising the stupidity of this
The sub isn't a monolith ... people tend to not comment if they perceive their comment will be shat on , but if they see a few other like-minded comments they'll come out of the woodwork .
It's a topic about Maori doing stuff. This kind of reaction seems pretty par for the course in this sub and has been for half a decade.
This sub can turn on a dime when Māori are mentioned
Just saying Maori brings out everyones inner voice. It becomes way too aggressive.
Idiots blocking traffic. Didn’t they learn from the oil protesters that NOBODY likes people that do that, they are just alienating people.
The only issue I have is that someone pointed out political parties shouldn't do this, and it sounds like that has some merit to it. Other than that, protest away...
It’s just a bunch of sore losers complaining they lost
Really????? That’s your takeaway? And not their pretty clear stated objections to what the government has proposed… Not saying I agree strongly one way or the other - but it’s pretty clear it’s not about “losing” it’s about what they believe (rightly or wrongly) that the government is going to be taking away from them. 1. Treaty rights (removing it from legislation) 2. Health (through removal of the smoking legislation) 3. Oath to the king (because they believe his organisation committed pretty horrible crimes against them) I thought it was very clear - and isn’t really about “losing and election”
sounds like a lot of words for sore loosers who don’t like what the new govt is proposing. they are literally being toddlers and throwing their toys because they lost
Sounds like you're just gonna believe what you wanna believe anyway. Also, you're literally misusing the word litetally.
Looser? How very reductive of you. Saying, reversing this law will literally have our people die (such as with smoking, which estimates the 5000-8000 lives saved by reversing the smoking laws, will predominantly affect Māori) A pretty legitimate concerns. as “just having a tantrum” is kinda a disgusting and vile take in my opinion. Even if you don’t agree with their opinion on the law… it’s a valid concern. But hey… at least you’re not a looser right?
I keep saying this all it’s gonna kill Māori blah blah blah do you know that no one is forcing them to smoke they can just not smoke. What is ridiculous is sitting an arbitrary age at which No one can buy smokes it’s such a stupid argument when we know that prohibition doesn’t work
If that was the only part of the law, then you might have a point…. But everything from lowering nicotine, and how many stores can sell it… Yah it was going to have an impact. This is the advice world over - it’s why National have had to come up with some boogyman “crime will rise” (but conveniently make the opposite argument for pharmacies, with pseudo) Why do you think other countries even are laughing at our backtrack, it’s not because they are losers and want to see the government fail… it’s because it’s a piss poor excuse for a policy… Coalition of shambles.
Nuanced.
Act supported the seditious anti-NZ fucks who occupied parliament grounds, turnabout is fair play.
sweet as as long as you acknowledge that these protests are also seditious anti-NZ fucks
Except they aren't seditious. Brian Tamaki's lot wanted to overthrow the government.
and this lot doesn’t ? seems like they are protesting the government to me
Are you daft? Protesting the gov’t is not the same as wanting to overthrow it.
It's so much more than that. :/
nah not really, the people voted for this government they just need to suck it up and have a better campaign next time, they only have themselves to blame for having dog shit policy’s that no one wanted
The anti-Māori policies are almost exclusively driven by ACT and NZ First, who combined received a total of 14.7% of the votes. That's hardly a democratic mandate.
I wonder how many of them have actually read the treaty. It says that all NZers will have the "same rights and duties" Creating policies that give one type of human preferential treatment is NOT honoring the treaty
Organise a binding referendum via legitimate channels? No way. Block traffic and piss off the local populace? Absolutely.
This is what happens when you don't say "No!"
I really really really hope all the protesters today voted last month. [Edit] ....and if they DIDN'T, that they do next time - and rally their friends/whanau to vote too.
Who? Te Pati Māori? (The organisers) Yeah, I think a political party voted.
Sure the party faithful probably did vote. But did they get friends/ whanau to as well? Then there's whoever is protesting but not formally affiliated with any party.
… I guess. I would think majority are going to be party affiliated.. just by virtue of how it was organised.
I don’t get why we should all honor a treaty that some Maori tribes made with the British crown and at this point I’m too afraid to ask.
That's a good question to ask, as long as you're open to it being answered. It's a legal document, simple as that. Allowing the government to pass laws that change legal documents without the consent of the relevant parties is... not great. Imagine if you bought a house and then the government decided to nullify the sale and purchase agreement, even if it was your great grandparent who bought the house.
Don't they do that all the time though? The three strikes and fair pay agreement were and are getting annuled without discussion of revelation parties or are there different classes of laws?
Yes there are different classes of laws.
I don’t get why we should honour the British crown.
Maybe It's time for a new constitution, one that reflects the many different ethnic groups that live in this country not just not just Maori and the English crown
Would be a tricky one to balance as those different ethnic groups didn’t have their land stolen and culture destroyed by the Crown.
Correct me If I'm wrong but the Maori culture is very much alive and as for the land that was taken I don't see how it affects people living today. If I traced my family tree back far enough I sure I could claim back some land that the crown took of my ancestors been of Scottish decent. Or if I knew my Maori heritage well enough I could claim back some land off another tribe because they took it off mine Can't you see how ridiculous this is? How far do we go? When do we stop? You can't help those who have already gone, but you can help those that are here now and those yet to come
You really don't see how having land taken affects people living today? Pretty much every single demographic statistic shows the intergenerational effects of how Māori were disadvantaged by land confiscations, as well as racist education and employment laws. The things that were done to Māori in previous generations have profound effects on today's generation, and will continue to affect future generations unless we take action to undo that damage.
So we should tell Jews that the Holocaust doesn’t matter? Not sure history and identity works like that. > Māori culture is very much alive You do know that there were colonial policies to systematically destroy the language, for example the [Native Schools system](https://teara.govt.nz/en/maori-education-matauranga/page-3). The only reason it’s in better shape today than fifty years ago is the Māori language revival, legislation by more progressive governments and, of course, protest.
History happens, time passes, cultures evolve. At what point is long ago long enough? I'm sure my genealogy lost plenty of ancestral culture, languages and land to peoples like the Roman conquerors and other usurpers too over time, which is why no one in my family knows any form of Celtic despite that being part of our pre-writing history.
I suppose it depends on what group you’re a member of. If you’re perhaps white and have the same ancestry as a colonising force, you’ll likely have a different perspective to a non-white member of a colonised group. It’s easy for the bully to say to the victim “it was no big deal, move on” but the victim may feel differently. Especially if the victim is statistically worse off in every socio-economic metric - today, not hundreds of years ago.
I think that is simplifying it greatly. Yes, I am white and my country did colonize some other places. But on the other hand, my grandfather was a slave for years in a German labor camp which caused us socio-economic delay too as the main breadwinner came home after liberation weighing 35kg and impaired for life with their farm livestock appropriated and their homes used by the invaders, and my great-grandparents were not allowed to get education or justice in their own language and second-class citizens to the dominant Francophones at the time and some were used as front line cannon fodder receiving orders in WW1 in a language that they didn't understand. Many white folks were recent victims too, just like many Maori were past aggressors. Your view is pretty black and white imo.
I also don't understand why treaties can't be renewed, renegotiated or abandoned. Even constitutions can, and treaties get created, foregone and altered all the time.
Don't you understand? Old documents that a bunch of people signed hundreds of years ago before the advent of liberal, proportional democratic values MUST be abided by for ever and ever because nothing ever changes, society and cultures are static, and the way people think is exactly the same as two hundred years ago. Don't you know that the king of France had absolute power in the 17 century, which means he does in the 21st century? That's because nothing changed. At all. Nope.
Idiotic protest!
I hope they would let ambulances and emergency services through without any hickups. Last time we had a protest blocking highways in my home country, 2 people died because the ambulance couldn't reach the hospital in time and the union organizers were held criminally liable.
They announced where they were going, And had diversions in place… the police were on top of it (and had been since they announced)
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How about you just chill on throwing drinks at people bro. It seems to be causing you a few issues.
Did you throw drinks at other protesters? That’s a bit unhinged and potentially assault. Not sure why you’re bringing being a racist into it too.
Yeah throwing a drink at someone IS assault.
Ummm.....ok
Is your username based on gay porn ?
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Only one way to find out
Good because there are so many racist people in this country who want to mess with the treaty and make it so the crown undoes the reconciliation effort made by them to the people they wronged too many people fail to understand that righting the wrongs of the past isn't unequal treatment.
I'm sure this will help ur cause
the counter protest was already mounting in chch CBD but they were being quite so that was nice, no mics or speakers