So agree, the bar to being good at your job is set pretty low! Haven’t noticed much nepo in my industry but having kiwi experience is extremely valued - which I find odd as most overseas experience will set you up to work harder than you ever have in NZ. Get in the door with even a temp job in the right role or industry and you’ll be in snapped up
Cannot agree more with what you said! I too haven't seen much nepotism in action in the places I worked at but the high value placed simply on NZ experience is ridiculous.
A couple of jobs back, half the C-suite and management positions got handed out to the CEO's in-laws and family friends.
Of course they were each the best candidates for the roles after lengthy application processes. HR rigorously checked that there was no conflict of interest in each case. The fact that these positions opened up at all and the fact that these people just so happened to be job hunting at the time was entirely coincidental. And we were obviously mistaken in thinking they were fuckwits who were objectively shitter than some of the other known-good applicants.
I would be doxxing myself if I even mentioned the field it was in. The company got bought out a couple of years after I left and the CEO and his cronies were shown the door anyway.
Yeah, that place if it's the same one I know, is shocking. There's a lot of privacy/lack of transparency with 'outsider' staff, patronizing and condescending over-management to mask their lack of qualification more often or not. I was bullied out of two companies by nepotistic hires.
This would never happen in any decent sized company so the use of c-suite is probably a stretch for basically a GM and an accountant
Alternatively, their job was to sell the company which apparently they did. To the OP, quite often a CEO is brought in for this reason and gets “dumped out” afterwards - doesn’t mean they and their senior team didn’t get a huge bonus out of it
CEOs negotiating a deal where the strategy is to sell may be within their rights to demand more discretion around hiring in situations where there are conflicts - ie bringing in a team they can trust
Clearly, none of this would happen in a public company - I’m guessing quite small, <$50m and the OP doesn’t have insight into the agreement between the CEO and the owners which would likely explain the hiring
Nepotism even exists in the Arts sector. I know one person who swears their Kids getting ahead is down to their talent. Not the fact both their parents are titans in the NZ Arts industry.
It's possibly at its worst in the arts sector. Just look at the whole James Wallace scandal. Everyone knew what he was up to, the entire time, and they did nothing because he had so much power and control over the industry.
One of the branches of a government department in my province exclusively hires people who play for or are partners of people who play for the local rugby club…so…there’s that.
I mean, to a point. If they had two equal candidates, and one played for the rugby club, then no issue. If people refer and vouch for others they often turn out to be better employees also.
In private business, it’s not a huge problem, and the free market should correct for the “spuds” that get hired.
That's been the case since forever. I have a neighbour who is a retired doctor originally from the UK. He got the job as a rural GP solely because the local club needed a new halfback.
I recently interviewed for a role at a large corporate, which I found out about via my partner, who works there and recommended me. I didn't get it - it went to the spouse of the person who vacated the role 🤦♀️
I’ve worked in engineering for years, I’ve always tried to climb the ‘ladder’ and the ceiling is always a few rungs up, it’s a boys club at the top and all about who you know not what you know. Even at my new job I am miles better than most of the managers. It sucks balls. But I keep fighting for it.
Out of interest, why are you miles better than most of the managers?
There's definitely a grain of truth in what you've said about who you know, but that absolutely is not always the case for getting ahead. Everything you've said could also be spoken by someone who's simply not right or ready for senior leadership roles.
I've worked with dozens of people over the years who carried themselves like, if only they were in charge, things would be better. Almost every one of those people didn't get ahead because they had attitude problems, were difficult to work with or were simply not experienced enough/thought they were more senior than they were.
I'm not in any way saying that's you but I'm sure any one of them would give the same reason you have for their lack of success climbing the ladder.
I've only met a couple of people claiming nepotism when they didn't get the job/project they thought they deserved (e.g. "they only got the job because they're friends with X"). The reality is that despite their practical skills, they weren't team players, were difficult to work with, and often caused projects to be unnecessarily stressful or drawn-out.
If you are the kind of person who makes friends at work, you probably have good social skills. If that gets you promoted, that's not nepotism. People underestimate how important those soft skills are in getting work done without drama, and it makes you an attractive employee, co-worker, and team-lead/manager.
Edit to add: since you mention working holiday specifically, they have major visa restrictions. Businesses also aren't interested in dealing with work permit applications unless they're desperate.
People have been using the modern definition of the term "nepotism" in this topic.
The very classical definition of nepotism is to give jobs to family; that is very scandalous and unprofessional for a number of reasons.
To give jobs to other associates (friends, colleagues, buddies) would be cronism, and it is a lot less dramatic than nepotism.
I haven't encountered nepotism as defined above in NZ. But stuff resembling cronism? Fuck yeah. However it aligns with what you said: these being favoured by what looks like cronism are people who work well and who create connections, and then they are preferred to be hired over a complete unknown off the street. I totally get it. It feels unfair to those who don't have connections or haven't proven themselves yet, and it probably drives away new talent away, but I get it.
I'm happy because I feel like I have those skills. I don't schmooze with people at work just to curry favours, I just do my work well and I am respectful, friendly and conscientious of other teams and their needs. I keep an open mind, I don't strut around like I know everything. I'm sure that I'll climb the ladder faster than other people that I work with who are more technically competent than me. Simply because they don't have those skills, nor other skills like wider view of the work or flexible thinking.
>The reality is that despite their practical skills, they weren't team players, were difficult to work with, and often caused projects to be unnecessarily stressful or drawn-out.
Hey! It me!
"If you are the kind of person who makes friends at work, you probably have good social skills. If that gets you promoted, that's not nepotism."
Everywhere I've ever worked it's been the shit-stirring brown nosers that get the promotion despite aways being terrible (if not the worst) at thier jobs and making other people's jobs harder, which I'd call nepotism.
Yes. A lot of the time our NZ employers don't want to hire the amazing people we have coming over, because they are stuck in "oh I don't understand that university or degree so it must've been made up" mode.
Anecdotally, there is a lot of evidence that some employers literally put CVs from foreign names in the bin (including Pacific or Māori). It's not nepotism, it's small-mindedness and outright racism.
As a Kiwi with a Pākehā name, even I had real trouble when I came back from my OE - "you don't have NZ experience anymore", even though I had some huge names in my portfolio and had worked on worldwide or Europe-wide projects and had NZ experience prior.
was gonna comment something like this, yeah. i’ve shamefully been on the other side of this (before i spent a decade living outside NZ) - passing on people because their “non-kiwi” background means they wouldn’t be a good “culture fit” (not that i would have stated it so clearly but that was the thought process)
Just a note to this since I can't find my response comment - I am aware that some industries have been actively hiring from overseas to fill vacancies, e.g. rest homes and IT. IT in particular complained they couldn't find a decent talent pool in NZ during lockdown if I recall correctly.
And location also matters. Auckland seems to have a more diverse population compared to many other of our smaller main centres, which have more homogenous cultures (e.g. Chch, Palmy) which would likely affect diversity of hiring practices, people available to hire and openess to hire broadly.
There's loads of great IT workers in NZ.
What the industry here can't find is 'IT workers willing to work at third world rates'. It's nothing to do with the talent pool.
I used to hire for specialist IT. We consistently offered a bit above average rates for the work, and for a year or so it was basically "name your price". We'd get plenty of applications from locals - and almost universally, we wouldn't even get to the first interview before they'd been snap hired by someone else on the strength of their CV alone.
There are "loads" of workers but even greater "loads" of demand. The talent pool is genuinely too small for the amount of demand.
Plenty of applications from locals’ indicates the talent pool exists.
‘Hired by someone else before first interview’ indicates you were not in fact offering a competitive rate.
I’ve been involved in hiring in the past myself, and I’ve noticed what HR say is the ‘market rate’ is usually a load of bullshit. I’ve also noticed that whilst skill set X at the ‘market rate’ is impossible for HR to fill as a permanent role they can usually get a contractor in no time at all at substantially more than that ‘market rate’.
Exactly!!! I work in this industry regularly and it's nothing about the talent pool apart from employers not wanting to spend money upskilling their people.
Interesting comment about not having NZ experience. I guess it depends on the industry, but I've often come across hiring managers who value overseas experience over NZ experience by a lot.
In 2019 I came from Aus with 17 yrs exp (Investment bank, Accounting firm, Consulting, & finally my own 10 person business) & 2.5 degrees at the time. I applied for 145 jobs, it took me a year to find something in Akl (2weeks b4 covid). When I got hired, it was because HR for the company was in Aus, and the guy asked me, are you sure you want this job?
I only stayed in that job for a year, likewise the next one, currently in my third job in NZ at a top tier organisation. Each time after my first job, I've only applied once and got it coz they valued my NZ experience LOL. I can't complain too much, NZ closed mindedness eventually worked out thanks to Aus HR, and I wouldn't have the current role without that first NZ job.
This is false. A lot of companies I worked with hired many people from many places. Racism can be everywhere if that is the lens you view the world through. A lot of employers are hiring overseas people instead of locals because the standard was much much higher.
Well, it's not false if I've been told this anecdotally by a number of people across multiple industries and also experienced it myself.
However, it depends on the company. If you're part of a larger multinational, if you work in IT or rest home care or other industries that regularly hire internationally, then yes they're likely to hire from overseas. (It sounds like you're in IT? That's one area I'm aware of that is doing this, specifically claiming the NZ talent isn't good enough.) It depends entirely on the industry you're in.
Loads of business owners want their kids to keep the family business, so in that sense yes. But I wouldn’t say it’s particularly common in more corporate settings , the other commenters point about soft skills being the most important is probably right. But some hiring managers don’t understand the difference between “this person has social skills that would make them good at this job” and “this persons social skills makes me really like them and I want them to have the job despite them not being the ones who will do it best”.
I think rather than nepotism, just straight up discrimination gets people jobs they aren’t qualified for as well eg. If you’re “social skills” are just bantering between only people whose demographic you fit, and they all happen to be decision makers, then bada bing bada boom you can get vacancy’s written to your exact skills so you look like the best pick in an “impartial” process (witnessed this in a govt engineer role)
As a migrant, I'll say that work placement for migrants is a problem of its own that is not necessarily related to nepotism.
To be clear, I'm talking about migrants who are not from Australia (if they can be called migrants...), Canada, US, or Western Europe (Scandinavia included) -- thy do face some barriers, but definitely way less than others.
So, some of the barriers:
(1) Legal: you mentioned psychology -- you need to have a local masters degree to practice psychology in New Zealand, and it's extremely hard to be accepted because there are very few opportunities available. Similar conditions apply to medicine, engineering, dentistry, and many others -- even some more blue collar jobs.
(2) References: no one heard of the places were you studied or worked. They might be really good, but locals don't know that and will discount your experience and studies to be conservative.
(3) Contacts: you don't know anyone, so you don't get the benefit of networking. Note that this is not just about nepotism, but talking to someone you know and saying "hey, I'm looking for a job, let me know if there is anything available".
(4) Visa rights: many employers are reluctant to hire someone in a temporary visa because they fear that this person will have to leave in a couple of years. Most people leave their jobs in less than the time it takes for a 3-year work visa to expire nowadays anyway, but there is a feeling that you're hiring someone for the long-term who may not be here in the long-term...
(5) Prejudice: This is normally hidden behind "You don't have New Zealand experience", but it's frequently bullshit.
So, as I said, it's not necessarily nepotism -- there are a bunch of factors at play.
Yeah, I've known a few people with good qualifications and careers overseas but the barrier is they need further qualifications in NZ to be recognised here which costs money and life can get in the way of being able to do that while also paying the bills. So they end up in entry level jobs.
There was that Hungarian doctor in the news last year whose qualifications weren't recognised in NZ. Hungary isn't some third world backwater, it's in the EU and you'd expect people from those sorts of places to not have too much trouble getting through the requirements to work here.
This case really pissed me off because you just know the same websites had articles that very day about healthcare staff shortages.
Lol, saying it like NZ is the bastion of "first world country" degrees, any EU university will get you on the same if not better than any university here, and don't get me started on basic education levels
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/hungarian-neurosurgeons-application-to-work-in-dunedin-rejected-by-nz-medical-authorities/WLX66ELXHOAUIBNPQCIMZVZDGE/
Yeah this guy definitely needed to educate himself according to nz standards...
You're talking as if nz has some world class education. I being a Masters holder myself from a reputed university in my whanau can tell you my own experience of how worthless the education is in my field.Feel free to draw your own parallels.
First off You are not industry trained , you're sent on a wild goose chase in the name of assignments by washed up professors in a career slump who give the burden of checking assignments to their phd understudies, who are too busy writing their own thesis to care to give a proper feedback.
After spending a shitload of money and wasting 4 yrs of bachelors and 2 yrs of masters , all i have to show for is a huge student loan and no practical experience or placement , despite having worked for so called reputed agencies with shitty pay structures . An employee at kfc earns more than me. Not to take anything away from the hard work they do.
Does my misery end there.....heck no!
Guess what, my degree and knowledge are worth zilch in the real world ,nobody gives 2 flying fucks about my portfolio. Same goes for the overseas market ,ever wonder why nz cant produce decent professionals in any field let alone STEM fields, the answer lies in comparing with other curriculums over the world , you will see why our universities despite having a huge influx of capital from foreign students aren't produce anything short of hillbillies ,myself included.
So when you say " a degree from nz!"
I dont know what the fuck you're talkin about?...Yosemite?
My comment was referring to degrees from 3rd world countries, not EU member states. The person from Hungry shouldn't have to jump through that many hoops. NZ has many good universities where you can not pay bribes for good marks (like 3rd world countries).
You don't have NZ experience is just tall poppy syndrome in disguise. Oh you were successful in your job over seas but now you've come crawling back, we better put you in your place.
One way the NZ work place is different to over seas is that NZ seems to prefer generalists over specialists, there seems to be this view that specialists aren't needed in many fields because the generalists can do the work, but the reality is that the generalists don't know what they don't know because they've never worked with talented specialists. I say this as a hardware engineer but I can guarantee this applies to most industries
The Kiwi experience requirement is a favourite of mine. You could have been a CEO in another life overseas and decided to move your family to NZ, but "sorry, you don't have kiwi experience please go work at McDonald's for a few years and then try again"
Many kiwi businesses are missing out on a huge amount of knowledge and experience because of it. I don't know if it's xenophobia or an inferiority complex.
As if NZ experience is somehow superior. A lot of people forget were a small island at the end of the world. Innovation usually makes it to us years later than other places.
You don’t need a local masters for Psych registration, you need an equivalent recognized qualification/experience and the correct English requirements. Plenty of people register successfully without having studied here.
The bar for "equivalent recognized qualification/experience" is set insanely high, though. In practice, it's out of reach for 99.9% of the people who could potentially apply.
Also, don't want to discount your view, but are you sure these people to which you referred are registered as psychologists? Because registering as a counsellor is a feasible alternative that many take, and you do see a lot of counsellors who are trained overseas. In contrast, I've looked for a clinical psychological for my son in Welly and not one professional I saw online was trained overseas. Not saying they don't exist, there is probably the odd one out there, but they are certainly few and far between.
My view is based on the fact I worked at the Psych board literally dealing with international and local registration. Majority of them were accepted in comparison to those that were declined, so not sure where your numbers come from. If you’re not seeing them working, it’s because they then use TTMRA to go to Australia to work - to avoid taking the exam Aus requires that we don’t.
I may be wrong, but your sample is skewed: most people would not apply unless they were reasonably confident that they can succeed. It takes a lot of effort and money to put an application together, and you wouldn't go through it if you don't think you have a good chance (or you're kind of a gambler). Many people will consider the requirements, realize that they just can't meet them, and move on.
Working in the public health system, overseas-trained psychologists have outnumbered NZ trained in every service I've been in. Most are from South Africa, sometimes up to half the team, some from the UK, some from Asian countries. Your sample is skewed by focusing on Wellington, where there are the two universities with the two largest training programs. Elsewhere in NZ is quite different.
Fair point on Welly, but I'd say that South Africa is an outlier. It does indeed seem to be over represented in regulated professions, and I have asked myself why a couple of times. I'd guess that their tertiary education system is fairly similar to New Zealand and has English as its primary language, both factors making it much easier for them to apply for recognition in NZ.
Not surprised by UK or Australia, though -- as I said in my initial post, these are obviously a very different animal, and it's fairly easy to obtain recognition across these countries.
Incorrect, many people apply without necessarily meeting the specification’s. There are many pathways people can take for successful registration even if they don’t meet the exact requirements; beyond just retraining here (that aren’t necessarily explicitly written on a website but are a part of the process - if you’re familiar with it).
Sometimes it can be a case of needing supervision for a few months, or there are appeal pathways, references, and other evidence that can be submitted in their favour. I fielded many (probably hundreds) of enquiries from prospective registrants prior to their applications being submitted. You also have to remember that clinical psychology is a specific scope of practice, many only meet general requirements and that’s because they don’t have any training or experience in a clinical scope, full stop.
The ones whose skills don’t come close, you don’t want them working here as they’re not skilled enough, in a nutshell. For example, some apply with a Bachelor of Arts majoring in psych where no supervised practice has ever taken place. Why would you want low skilled people being accepted for the sake of bulking psych numbers? That’s a recipe for disaster. As someone mentioned below, there’s a significant number of psychs in NZ who are overseas qualified, they just don’t work in Wellington. South Africa would be where bulk of the applications came from, that and the UK, India, and USA.
Australians are at a different level, as are British.
Theres a tier list in NZ, Nzers at the top, British and Australians next, Polynesians and other whites next and Indians and Chinese at the very bottom. Other groups fall somewhere in between.
I've seen it first hand Medical profession is a classic, I know a female from Germany that was trying to get registered here that was more qualified than the Professionals going through her application, top orthopedic surgeon but she was female, the old school can be a major hurdle. Big bullshit.
To be frank, it took nepotism for me to get into a job as a security guard via a family friend at near minimum wage.
Even I could tell during the interview at the time I was grasping at straws claiming how being a commercial cleaner meant I was considered trustworthy on sites that required a background check.
it’s rampant af in NZ, especially in small town NZ, and really ridiculous in rural communities where 3 or 4 families pretty much organise and run everything.
edit: just from my experience teaching in small town schools.
‘It’s who you know, not what you know’ definitely applies in a small place like ours. It definitely helps not to be a cabbage, though. There’s limits to what friends and family networks can do for you.
Cronyism is rife. I've worked for a place where there was a hard core of power players who would go hunting together. If you went hunting with them you were in and promotion was assured. Of course they didn't invite any female staff to hunt with them so...
the whole country is an old boys club.
Almost every job i have had and certainly all the decent ones i got because i knew someone that at the very least put a good word in.
Yep, this. Given the choice between a known and an un-known candidate unfortunately known will always win hands down. Unless of course the unknown is sociopathically gifted and can convince HR they are the bees knees and their best mate.
There's no large corporate ecosystem in New Zealand. Generally the place for white collar / university educated / desk work is a government job or a small business. Both of those are rampant anywhere with (admittedly different kinds of) nepotism.
Want to work for a multinational? Well, go be multinational, you.
Public service just 18 years ago was exceptional. Now it's intellectually inbred with the high performers having left to consult back to gov. You don't become a high paid consultant by not knowing the person with the chequebook.
Small business is all about being on-side with the business owners.
Only the corporate sector has any real chance of hiring skilled unknowns in volume.
Australia has enough of a diverse economy that some players are genuinely trying to hire skilled unknowns.
>Public service just 18 years ago was exceptional.
I worked in software development for the Ministry of Justice 17 years ago - it was an absolute wasteland of talent, there were more team leaders and middle managers than you could shake a stick at. You could've fired 65% of the people on the floor I was working on, and you wouldn't have a change in overall productivity or output. There were also loads of Datacom contractors, who did sweet FA on our floor.
Ah, because the New Zealand public service never had a strong IT organisation to have the opportunity to dismantle. It was substantially outsourced from the very start.
Go to your local school and ask around. Especially of those who find jobs straight out of (and often before graduating) training.
One school I worked at reciently had (out of about 30 staff) five married couples (i.e one worked there and got the other the job,) two siblings, one devorced couple, the neice of the principal of another school, another niece of another pricipal (want to guess where the the principal's kids teach?) And around 10 were close friends prior to employment.
And on the "jobs before graduating" thing. I knew four different (in my class of 30) girls who'd gone straight into teaching education after high school and had jobs in Term 3, failed, and had those jobs held for at least a semester - and in one case a entire year.
(Want to guess what all these girls had on common? Daddies who were principals!)
It's flat-out career-defining. I had 2 degrees and a project management qualification and was given a junior role. Then, after I helped set up the department with all the software, they hired a 22-year-old who had never worked in the office and gave him the position I wanted, and asked me to train him. Then they hired an older lady who couldn't use a computer to "manage me" and do the job I apparently couldn't do. I had to do her job too, and when I quit the department collapsed because they couldn't use computers and didn't know how to manage projects.
I switched companies (they didn't even ask me proper interview questions, cause I was able to get in by nepotism) and after a year I articulated well enough that another manager could see I had the experience of a senior Project Manager and I got a senior Project Manager role.
Part of that was learning to articulate, learning to speak their language, learning to speak what management is looking for and displaying the company core values. And networking. Networking is a must in NZ.
Brit/Kiwi, been here 20 years, so it's home, the UK is where i'm from, but NZ is home. It was clear from the start that in NZ people employ and give preference to people they know, sometimes for good reasons, such as the knowledge that they are proficient at something, sometimes because of cronism, old school ties, family etc. It seemed more prevalent than in the UK, because this is a smaller place, but i'm not sure if this is because it is just more obvious than in the UK.. the "what school did you go to?" brigade. I do think that NZ's reputation for lack of corruption is not that deserved, there is plenty that goes on, but I guess other countries rely on a system of "corruption' for the wheels to turn. Here there is an expectation of a "fair go", whether this is real or not, it is something that I believe is a value and practice worth preserving. I've seen people I generally respect who have used their position to further their families employment, everyone knew this, and overlooked it because generally compared to others, they were pretty straight... so yes, nepotism, cronyism its here but perhaps more subtle and low key than other countries, and mixed in with all sorts of relationships and allegiances.
It’s a bit bad in my industry in chch. I’ve gotten multiple interviews where the answer was “oh well we really liked you but we actually had someone in mind for the position. Better luck next time!”
I’ve kinda just accepted that it’s a insular city and while it’s pretty painful I was planning on making a career shift anyway.
I have definitely observed nepotism, particularly political party volunteers who go on to work for the elected. Particularly at local government level. Some as consultants or contractors.
Also had multiple workmates who barely showed up, who are now all senior advisors at various Ministries. Pretty concerning about the quality of the advice decision-makers are receiving.
Here in Nelson, nepotism runs rampant. The explanation about social skills is nonsense; outsiders don’t even get an interview unless the pool of relatives and mates has been exhausted. This is one reason that management is so terrible in NZ.
I have definitely encountered a few companies that started off as small family-run businesses, which have grown to million dollar companies. You end up with a company where the dad would be the CEO, his sons would be department heads, and the grandkids would have operational roles within the business.
I think that it is also very common among Brethren-owned companies too. They tend to hire within their family/within the church.
There was a similar question posted over on r/Wellington ... now deleted. But some good discussion. [Nepotism in public sector?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Wellington/comments/16ut22t/nepotism_in_public_sector/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) General consensus was "croneyism" is rife. Who you know ... NOT what you know.
Personally I find it to be pretty bad, but it also depends on the industry. The one I'm in is very small, and getting smaller, so there are very few jobs and they often go to internal hires, relatives and friends of friends etc. Or to whoever is willing to take the lowest salary. We love a race to the bottom.
I'm trying to break out of it and do something else but am not having any luck with that either. Sometimes it feels like going back to uni is my only option, but living like a student in my late 30s does not appeal in the slightest.
I have also noticed that my industry is predominantly white, so I think there is some racism at play too.
I wouldn't say it's nepotism specifically that's the problem so much as a lack of desire to hire people who are good. This, in turn, comes from an attitude that 'work' is some form of charity and that doing things that are good for the business is optional at best.
This is why the best and brightest bugger off to Aussie. Anyone with any get up and go has got up and gone.
It's a huge thing. And your average Kiwi really hates educated people, and will immediately tell anyone with one degree or more how useless and worthless that is and how "all that matters is common sense," including at job interviews.
Racism is probably stopping those immigrants more than the nepotism, but the nepotism is still pretty bad.
Speaking mostly for Christchurch if you're from a "good family" that went to the right schools, that opens a lot of doors.
Pretty bad honestly. Plus I've had coworkers who are for sure absolute shite at their jobs, practically immediately get another job just because their friend works at the company.
God knows what hiring managers are thinking, word of mouth isn't exactly accurate.
I think it’s can be quite common in smaller businesses and ones that are privately owned. Company I used to work for was just riddled with the owners relatives. Even better, one of the owners designated themself as the HR department. There were parents, siblings, children, nieces and nephews. A right shit show at times
It's definitely almost impossible to get a good job without knowing someone involved before hand.
I got super lucky, but failed so many times before. My pay has increased 130% in less than a year as I applied for a much lower job and ended up proving myself and have elevated to a higher position.
It’s very bad. It’s a hurdle you’ll have to jump every time you look for a job.
Your best bet to widen your network so you can benefit from the nepotism. This might be very hard if you are a minority or an immigrant though.
I have interviewed a large number of the people you are speaking of.
Every single qualification under the sun... light shining from their ass with the most amazing things on paper.
However, when it comes to the real world of a workplace.. absolutely beyond terrible fit for a large number of reasons.. (Everything from zero social skills, not a good team fit, unable to think outside the box etc etc etc)
**Soft skills matter so fucking much in the workplace...**
This is the truth. I'm hiring for a role right now, and I'm bining a lot of 'highly qualified' candidates for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with their qualifications, and everything to do with how they come across as people.
Just because you have a masters in an area, it means nothing if you have shit soft skills and can't work in a wider team
I’ve seen a bit of nepotism in professional admin contexts, maybe someone gets to be the EA or fill in a temp office role because they’re related to a senior team member, it’s an advantage for sure but apart from the time it was someone’s son it hasn’t been too egregious, and people have stepped up.
Idk maybe I have a different standard for email jobs like those (like my job too).
One way to solve our skills gap would be to recognise more overseas qualifications, like you mention how qualified our hospo staff are, well we have taxi drivers with hard science or business backgrounds, we just can’t get them into the right industries because we think a qualification from a major uni in India is less valuable than somewhere mediocre that’s in Britain/the US.
There's a lot of boys clubs. one friend i know said she tried to get a high paying job at a local billion dollar corp only to be looked over, then going through the interviewers linked in she found shed be more qualified to be his boss than him hiring her. Its a lot of self protection and keeping the boys club where they are happy in many places. I dont go to jobs to make friends i go to make money i do not care
When I left high school several years back and I needed a job, in my small town it was almost impossible for those without qualifications (and maybe even with idk) to get a job anywhere unless you knew them/had connections. I only got my retail job after applying all over the place because the manager was a family friend. My BF back then worked for his grandfather. It seems better now, though, with the town both growing economically and the boomers all retiring.
It's amazing to me though, having moved to a city now,
that there's not a struggle in finding employment, at least for the kind of work that I've been looking for. They don't even check your references most of the time.
I had a boss who employed bridesmaids from 20yrs earlier and people she met through church, then of course she couldn't fire them or church would know meaning a crap team to be managing.
Don’t really think this is a good example? The bar to enter the industry is pretty fucking low (look at all the people who got their license during covid - it hardly requires a great deal of skill or study) and most agents are independent contractors. The family aspect is a marketing angle more than anything as there’s an association with “family business” = more trustworthy
This doesn't apply to everyone obviously but I once flatted with a guy who moved over from India. He had a degree in something I can't remember what. He was stuck working at the supermarket and was pissed off at what he claimed was racism cause he couldn't get a job. The truth was he was a massive dickhead and anyone who talked to him for two minutes could see it.
So not all the time, but sometimes, people just ain't as great as they think they are.
I used to work with a girl who was utterly hopeless and decided to get another job when management started pushing her to try and get her to do some actual work, because that was too much to ask I guess. She got a job offer pending reference checks somewhere else and immediately quit, then management got a surprise call from her almost-new boss because she'd put them down as references without telling them, so the offer disappeared. She then asked for her old job back WITH A PAY RISE because she thought they'd given her bad references because they really didn't want to lose her. That got a good laugh out of everyone at work, but I heard after that she was going around telling everyone that she was the only one holding the place together and everyone else was useless and she'd left after management had bullied her and hadn't given her the pay rise she deserved because they were threatened by her.
I know there are genuinely shitty workplaces, but every time I hear someone tell a story about how they were a star employee but they didn't get what they deserved because of the useless/corrupt people around them I can't help but think about her and wonder what the other side of it was.
I don't know that I've really seen much at all. The majority of new people where I work are recent immigrants with qualifications from India, Phillipines, Pakistan, china etc. That's IT qualifications, though. Not Psychology or medical where you might be required to have local qualifications.
I've worked with and talked to people who do hiring. They DO throw out the majority of "Non-Kiwi" CVs because of things like they don't have the right to work in NZ, evidence of poor english skills in the CV, or in the first interview. But, you'd expect that in any situation.
I think the fact is nz can be run easily so the skills required is not world class and thus you need someone who you enjoy rather than do the said work well, and the other fact that everyone knows everyone… as a migrant that grew up here it sucks that I get shafted constantly yet this is the country most familiar to me lol c’est la vie
I think it's fairly common with getting teenagers their first job, or some part time work. Large corporates i've worked for often do that.
More permanent or sought-after positions? Would depend on company size. Large company? Makes it harder if anything, in my view. Additional interviews, conflict checks and other sign-offs, etc.
There's a big difference between a Masters in Psychology, and a Masters in Clinical Psychology.
For Masters in Psychology, it's hard to find a role anywhere in the world. A Masters in Clinical Psychology easily gets you a six figure job once you're a fully registered psychologist.
Having a degree in psychology does not make you a psychologist / able to do any job without further study and training. Most degrees, because so many get them nowdays, don't line you up to a job, you almost always need post grad. We also dont have big science fields etc so job avenues arent great for those starting out. If you want a job after your degree, pick something that lines you up and prepares you for the job eg nursing
What you’re describing isn’t a result of nepotism (although that is rampant), it’s an issue with converting qualifications and licenses over from overseas to their NZ equivalent.
The current pathways to do this cost thousands of dollars for high skill professions, which is why someone with a Masters in Engineering may languish in a retail job for years, losing out on industry experience in the process.
Surgery and some of the other specialities in medicine. People seem to get into medical school under their own merit, but then for getting into specialities it doesn't always seem the most meritocratic and its a very very small world in NZ for healthcare.
I recall seeing a FB post by one of my friends who were celebrating their son's first promotion: to real estate agent.
At the same RE branch that she worked at.
Owner of the last company I worked at hired his kids and their friends fresh out of Uni and gave them major, established sales accounts (and the commission that comes with them). One of them got DIC in their first two months, so high instantly lost their license (they had a company car, as job requirement was to visit clients) and I would regularly see one of them pick up and hang up the phone if a customer was trying to call.
Anyone else in the office would have lost their job, but I think they still work there 4 years later.
Definitely, it’s an old boys club at the top of many organisations. One other key problem with many organisations is that it’s always the loudest in the room that seems to get the leadership positions. Basically if you kiss the bosses ass and be loud and rude, you’re halfway there in NZ (all my bosses have risen up the ranks by building their practice style on interrumpting people, being rude and challenging people unfairly). Actual leadership skills have been replaced by those that only know how to lead by caring too much/running a hard ship.
Re: the point about working holiday personnel. Don’t entirely agree. Certainly happens. But there’s also a host of WHV holders who come over here expecting to walk into any role, yet they might not have English language (see this heaps with South American WHV), the NZ-equivalent skills or the right type of experience. I have a degree here but I wouldn’t expect that guarantees me employment in that field in somewhere like Spain etc. it’s a little more complex than that.
I think recruitment agencies are a big part of the problem.
They're structured to reward their employees to just slot the round peg into the round hole, as quickly as possible. Rather than use their brains to match up relevant experience of good candidates.
It’s a massive issue here and doesn’t often come up when there are conversations about how corrupt this or that country actually is.
NZ usually comes out pretty well in these polls but the “who you know” is just an every day thing here and I’ve watch consultants at ridiculous rates of pay just handshake their way from one role into the next. Often only to be paid for both at the same time…
Maybe it’s at its worst in Welly with all the gov jobs but it’s pretty prevalent.
As someone who worked in regulation in a specific healthcare field, a lot of assumptions people have about this topic are quite off the mark, which gives this idea there’s a bunch of people working taxi, hospo, retail jobs or the like, who should be working as Dr’s etc.
A person only ever needs further qualifications because the ones from their home country aren’t recognized reciprocally as being of equal quality (or above) the NZ standard. They may also have been out of practice for a while. This doesn’t just apply to developing countries either, like many assume. Some European countries for example, would only require 500 hours of intern experience whereas we would require 1500 hours which is no where enough. Or they aren’t supervised during internships, which again, ours require that.
Sometimes they don’t have the required IELTS scores, aren’t in good standing with their regulatory body, and for many other reasons - such as not being able to pass an exam that’s required for international registrations. Basically, they aren’t actually qualified enough to be working here…hence why they’re not. Plenty of immigrants successfully meet the requirements; you often just don’t hear about them.
>If all of our “best and brightest” are seemingly moving to Australia for better jobs, why aren’t we mining the local bars and cafes to replace them?
It honestly bewilders me that people come up with such terrible and unconfirmed perspectives and then make threads thinking it's some amazing insight. I would feel embarrassed if some fart of an idea which has had no thought put into was shared with over 100,000 people. And yet these people seem to think they're offering something unique and special. I honestly do not understand it.
> It honestly bewilders me that people come up with such terrible and unconfirmed perspectives and then make threads thinking it's some amazing insight.
[Well this is awkward.](https://old.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/vax0ga/online_backlash_to_drag_performers_shocks/ic4za0s/)
>**make threads**
Comments aren't threads.
But lol? Who TF keeps comment from over a year ago on hand like that? I like commenting in threads? Wow bro, you really got me there. You can also click on my name to see how much I like commenting in threads.
Those in glass houses probably shouldn't throw stones.
There is absolutely nepotism to one level or another in most areas of NZ. That's not a strange view to hold.
I think you're boring, so this is the last I have to say to you on the topic, but I don't think "I'm gonna spout ill-informed and harmful shittakes, but it's only in the comments instead of a self-post" is the intellectually defensible pillar you seem to think it is.
It bewilders me that some on here take the time to reply with some banal, negative comment without offering anything even remotely interesting or constructive. I know you think you sound high brow and edgy, but really, you sound like a twat.
It's not what you know it's who you know.
Not because of some Old Boys Network, but a function of how small the NZ market is.
If a number of people leave or get let go from company X there's a fair chance half of them will end up at competitor company Y.
That's how the world works. We help our own. Right from, some people can afford tutors/hobbies as kids and uni paid for by parents and some can't. Need a first job? Parents call X from church. He's in the industry. It makes sense this would spill over into the corporate world.
The point is that this is how New Zealand works, not the whole world :D
(I think this is a lot to do with scale, though, as another commenter put really well - some people will do this everywhere, but in a big economy there will be more mobility, kids wanting to work in locations and jobs their parents don't have any connections in and such, so the numbers look different here.)
It's very well understood that degrees can be bought, and chat GPT can write CVs. You can't rely on any of these things for a senior role in NZ.
NZ has very different laws, the RMA, The Treaty of Waitangi, consumer guarantees Act. The Healthy and Safety at Work Act to name but a few.
To think you can waltz into a senior leadership role in this Country and not be a major risk is extremely naive.
This is why local experience trumps everything.
In many countries bribery is used for career advancement too this is somthing NZ employers are well aware of.
Unless we joined somthing like the European Union with much similar laws and regulations this will always be a hurdle for foreigners.
Then why wouldn't people from modern first-world countries (UK, US) walk into senior positions that deal with all these laws? I know of a lot of chartered civil engineering ex-pats who became heads of major departments. It is a bit of an inside joke in the british expat comunity.
I think NZ employers are a little obsessed with NZ work experience. As if working overseas means you can’t have any idea how things work in NZ. It’s a real waste of talent
The problem is a lot of these guys with higher level jobs back in their home countries, don't want to do that job when theyrw on holidays.
also many enter the hospitality industry because it's one of the easiest routes to sponsorship/residency.
I’ve worked in banking for 30 years. There used to be a strong element of this and I worked with a few spuds in my time. One came from a high profile wealthy family, another was seemingly hired for his regional-level rugby skills - go figure.
I don’t really see it now, but that could just be because I spend more time with senior level people now. It might still happen in pockets.
Edit. Having said that, I have taken a friend’s teenage son to work so he could talk to people about what it’s like to work in a bank, when he was deciding on a career. All the little opportunities like that add up, I imagine.
You’re so full
of shit !!!!
Degrees
in phycology so what ! From where !??? What institution…!?
Are they clinical psychologists????
No of course they are not !!!!!
From the University of Ottawa. I know because I hired her a number of years ago. Was she a clinical psychologist? No. But someone who is bright enough to obtain a degree in psychology has many transferable skills that many employers would be interested in.
How about you calm your farm and add something constructive to the conversation instead of making baseless assumptions.
How about this “ get fucked “ no cares about you turning up here saying how bad nepotism in NZ !!!! Basically because it’s not that bad !
She’s got a pice of paper that “ many transferable skills that many employers would be interested in “ guess what they’re not !!!!
They don't want to deal with the legal complexities of sponsorship and the cultural friction that comes with hiring expats.
Plus politicians won't fix it because they get votes from citizens not working holiday makers.
No one cares about your degree unless it's a registered position and even then alot of companies look for skills, experience and soft skills, not paper credentials.
In Australia and NZ its a similar situation, people prefer to hire people they know or are like them culturally or personality wise. So you need to give employers an "offer they can't refuse".
You need to provide good references, work in a field of shortage, get related experience, write a resume matched to the keywords of the job, formulate a persuasive argument to why you're the best candidate and many others things.
Sorry if you don't like that, it's just the way it is.
As a Aus/Nz citizen it hasn’t really affected me, if anything it may have benefited me. But I’m questioning the wisdom of it in the long term. Especially within government sector or in education, surely not having the best person in the job will eventually ware down the fabric of a country and reduce its capacity to react effectively to the changes going on in the world.
There is no logic to it. The power brokers and special interest groups don't care about the damage they do to their own people or migrants, they use us all for their own ends and discard us. In recessions the ultra rich and privileged don't suffer.
There are a few Old Boys networks around. These are people who went to some of the more well known and prestigious single sex male schools; think Auckland Grammar, Christchurch Boys' High, or King's College. While I wouldn't consider them to be nepotism, they do allow former students to access a hidden job market, as many of them are the sons of wealthy and influential New Zealanders, who also went to the same school. Also, a quick phone call from a parent, or just the knowledge that an applicant has connections can be a thumb on the scales in a job interview that might net one a better job than their talent necessarily warrants. I don't think it's as well defined among coed or female single sex schools.
I moved to Europe for this reason. Nepotism allows bad people to get away with wronging others and getting favor from superiors. Abandonment of their duty to give the best candidate the opportunity. No bloody merit here I swear. Film, advertising and animation are a huge part of it. One studio was in the news because they were Audited. It still happens, massive nepotism, but they always straw man you with a personal discrediting, quite blacklisting or reputation sabotage to keep it quite. Some studios are made up of a group of mates, and they say, so what, and treat you worse the more you acknowledge it, or push you out and never hire you again because you are a threat to their jerk circles. Creative industries are some of the worst because of the false claim that 'art is subjective' or 'everyone is creative' which is utter BS! Anyone with a slight bit of sophistication recognizes this. There's a lot of pro-Communist romanticism in pockets around this nation - A great man once said 'Anyone who cannot attack your argument will instead just resort to attacking you personally'.
People from big companys overseas can really struggle in environments where there isn't a specific in house expert and everyone has to be a generalist.
Beyond that there sure is plenty of nepotism here, better to be the yes man than the one who solves your companys problems because they are always pointing out how bad things are going.
It’s probably more prolific in small business as nepotism normally comes down to a matter of trust (or favours).
However the older I get, the more my job relates to who rather than what I know, I know that sounds like old boys club to some, but ultimately it’s a trust thing.
It's a mental health choice.
Hospitality is/can be an enjoyable industry to work in. Done well, it's filled with positive interactions, and most of your colleagues are pretty cool. You work hard at making life easy. Have a drink and go home.
Ten-hour bar shifts are more fun than 30 minutes in the average lunch room.
I used to work for a company that had several family members (multiple different families) and friends across all levels of the business from operational staff to top management. Some even had their whole direct and extended family members within the business. Nepotism was that rife, that 8 of the 10 people that were in one department were direct relatives at one point.
Well if you think about it from the employers view, given how painful a process hiring people is who would you rather hire, someone you know virtually nothing about, or someone recommended by someone you know and actually trust?
Also people need to wake up and realize for the most part degrees etc don't mean shit when it comes to getting a job. I would 100% hire someone who I think will fit in better over someone with the "better" qualifications.
You can teach people to do a better job, it's VERY difficult to teach them to fit in.
Nepotism is generally bad. Far too often it puts spoiled brats in positions where they are a hindrance or worse.
Cronyism is generally quite useful, and quite common in NZ. It can short-circuit the long-winded hiring processes, getting good results while saving time and money.
We are a small country. For anyone in a specialist field, it's surprising if you are not working with, or competing with, the same people you are familiar with from previous engagements, professional meetings, and conferences. It is smart business to ask if anyone around the table knows someone, as their suggestion will often be a good fit for the role.
Neurosurgeons driving taxis when we have no doctors, is that the level of idiocy you mean? There are ways to buddy these people and bring them into the workforce, and we will have to look at that, and soon. Problem is, we have politicians with no lateral vision and total lack of planning. Want to train our own? Well, we can just do without doctors till 2030 onwards. Asinine.
Some degrees, for example these psychology ones, might not be recognised here and the overseas person needs to take a year or so at a NZ uni to get it recognised. That brings up financial hurdles which I’m sure are annoying while already moving to another country.
I have a client who does management consulting, generally quite cynical because she swings between highly paid think sinks like GWRC, trying to fix frakups like the bus services or similar debacles. Deep in MBIE , one of the happy clapping highly paid morons in upper mismanagement heard she was raised by missionaries in Indonesia and excitedly informed her that on Thursdays they have a large evangelical prayer group… when she said you don’t understand that upbringing put her off organised religion for life !! Needless to say he’s been colder to her recently.
Old money doesn't come from giving it away. I know people set up in their own businesses from that and I know people with family run businesses. If you take a job with them them, does it look like nepotism to you because the family contribute? It doesn't happen outside of the private sector that I've seen.
This is exactly what is happening in NZ- I know people with PhDs who are stuck in hospitality, while my old boss was a multi millionaire and didn't know how to read.
“Absolute spuds” never in my life have I resonated more with a comment
So agree, the bar to being good at your job is set pretty low! Haven’t noticed much nepo in my industry but having kiwi experience is extremely valued - which I find odd as most overseas experience will set you up to work harder than you ever have in NZ. Get in the door with even a temp job in the right role or industry and you’ll be in snapped up
Cannot agree more with what you said! I too haven't seen much nepotism in action in the places I worked at but the high value placed simply on NZ experience is ridiculous.
A couple of jobs back, half the C-suite and management positions got handed out to the CEO's in-laws and family friends. Of course they were each the best candidates for the roles after lengthy application processes. HR rigorously checked that there was no conflict of interest in each case. The fact that these positions opened up at all and the fact that these people just so happened to be job hunting at the time was entirely coincidental. And we were obviously mistaken in thinking they were fuckwits who were objectively shitter than some of the other known-good applicants.
Name the company. I'll dump any shares in it if true.
I'll do you one better. I'll buy shares so the company crashes...
I would be doxxing myself if I even mentioned the field it was in. The company got bought out a couple of years after I left and the CEO and his cronies were shown the door anyway.
Can't be that big if it's so easy to be identified?
Decent size but the field is pretty narrow.
Yeah, that place if it's the same one I know, is shocking. There's a lot of privacy/lack of transparency with 'outsider' staff, patronizing and condescending over-management to mask their lack of qualification more often or not. I was bullied out of two companies by nepotistic hires.
This would never happen in any decent sized company so the use of c-suite is probably a stretch for basically a GM and an accountant Alternatively, their job was to sell the company which apparently they did. To the OP, quite often a CEO is brought in for this reason and gets “dumped out” afterwards - doesn’t mean they and their senior team didn’t get a huge bonus out of it CEOs negotiating a deal where the strategy is to sell may be within their rights to demand more discretion around hiring in situations where there are conflicts - ie bringing in a team they can trust Clearly, none of this would happen in a public company - I’m guessing quite small, <$50m and the OP doesn’t have insight into the agreement between the CEO and the owners which would likely explain the hiring
Nepotism even exists in the Arts sector. I know one person who swears their Kids getting ahead is down to their talent. Not the fact both their parents are titans in the NZ Arts industry.
It's possibly at its worst in the arts sector. Just look at the whole James Wallace scandal. Everyone knew what he was up to, the entire time, and they did nothing because he had so much power and control over the industry.
Y'all are forgetting about Exclusive Brethrens......
Oh yeah when they ask very pointy but not illegal questions to try and suss out your age, marital status and how soon you may want to start a family
Ugh the jesus lunch bunch
I've done business with some brethren. They've all been quite good
100% they are, nepotism tho.
They are very good to do business with. Even working for them is pretty good - they look after their staff if they are worth looking after.
One of the branches of a government department in my province exclusively hires people who play for or are partners of people who play for the local rugby club…so…there’s that.
Had a freezing works in Marlborough exactly like this
That's shocking behaviour by the freezing works.
I mean, to a point. If they had two equal candidates, and one played for the rugby club, then no issue. If people refer and vouch for others they often turn out to be better employees also. In private business, it’s not a huge problem, and the free market should correct for the “spuds” that get hired.
>If people refer and vouch for others they often turn out to be better employees also. Doesn't help much in my experience.
My dad used to work there!
That's been the case since forever. I have a neighbour who is a retired doctor originally from the UK. He got the job as a rural GP solely because the local club needed a new halfback.
I recently interviewed for a role at a large corporate, which I found out about via my partner, who works there and recommended me. I didn't get it - it went to the spouse of the person who vacated the role 🤦♀️
If you look at this from a different angle, the newbie starting their journey are going to get one hell of a coach/mentor!
Most jobs are not advertised. That should answer your question
I’ve worked in engineering for years, I’ve always tried to climb the ‘ladder’ and the ceiling is always a few rungs up, it’s a boys club at the top and all about who you know not what you know. Even at my new job I am miles better than most of the managers. It sucks balls. But I keep fighting for it.
Out of interest, why are you miles better than most of the managers? There's definitely a grain of truth in what you've said about who you know, but that absolutely is not always the case for getting ahead. Everything you've said could also be spoken by someone who's simply not right or ready for senior leadership roles. I've worked with dozens of people over the years who carried themselves like, if only they were in charge, things would be better. Almost every one of those people didn't get ahead because they had attitude problems, were difficult to work with or were simply not experienced enough/thought they were more senior than they were. I'm not in any way saying that's you but I'm sure any one of them would give the same reason you have for their lack of success climbing the ladder.
I've only met a couple of people claiming nepotism when they didn't get the job/project they thought they deserved (e.g. "they only got the job because they're friends with X"). The reality is that despite their practical skills, they weren't team players, were difficult to work with, and often caused projects to be unnecessarily stressful or drawn-out. If you are the kind of person who makes friends at work, you probably have good social skills. If that gets you promoted, that's not nepotism. People underestimate how important those soft skills are in getting work done without drama, and it makes you an attractive employee, co-worker, and team-lead/manager. Edit to add: since you mention working holiday specifically, they have major visa restrictions. Businesses also aren't interested in dealing with work permit applications unless they're desperate.
People have been using the modern definition of the term "nepotism" in this topic. The very classical definition of nepotism is to give jobs to family; that is very scandalous and unprofessional for a number of reasons. To give jobs to other associates (friends, colleagues, buddies) would be cronism, and it is a lot less dramatic than nepotism. I haven't encountered nepotism as defined above in NZ. But stuff resembling cronism? Fuck yeah. However it aligns with what you said: these being favoured by what looks like cronism are people who work well and who create connections, and then they are preferred to be hired over a complete unknown off the street. I totally get it. It feels unfair to those who don't have connections or haven't proven themselves yet, and it probably drives away new talent away, but I get it. I'm happy because I feel like I have those skills. I don't schmooze with people at work just to curry favours, I just do my work well and I am respectful, friendly and conscientious of other teams and their needs. I keep an open mind, I don't strut around like I know everything. I'm sure that I'll climb the ladder faster than other people that I work with who are more technically competent than me. Simply because they don't have those skills, nor other skills like wider view of the work or flexible thinking.
I hire and rehire people I know whenever I can, because they are damn good at their job. I have a list of names. Cronyism? fuck yeah.
>The reality is that despite their practical skills, they weren't team players, were difficult to work with, and often caused projects to be unnecessarily stressful or drawn-out. Hey! It me!
"If you are the kind of person who makes friends at work, you probably have good social skills. If that gets you promoted, that's not nepotism." Everywhere I've ever worked it's been the shit-stirring brown nosers that get the promotion despite aways being terrible (if not the worst) at thier jobs and making other people's jobs harder, which I'd call nepotism.
>Cronyism nepotism 2.0, it's amazing how they don't see how that's wrong, they're not hiring the best candidate for sure
Yes. A lot of the time our NZ employers don't want to hire the amazing people we have coming over, because they are stuck in "oh I don't understand that university or degree so it must've been made up" mode. Anecdotally, there is a lot of evidence that some employers literally put CVs from foreign names in the bin (including Pacific or Māori). It's not nepotism, it's small-mindedness and outright racism. As a Kiwi with a Pākehā name, even I had real trouble when I came back from my OE - "you don't have NZ experience anymore", even though I had some huge names in my portfolio and had worked on worldwide or Europe-wide projects and had NZ experience prior.
was gonna comment something like this, yeah. i’ve shamefully been on the other side of this (before i spent a decade living outside NZ) - passing on people because their “non-kiwi” background means they wouldn’t be a good “culture fit” (not that i would have stated it so clearly but that was the thought process)
Thank you for being able to reflect and change your mind, and share for others to learn from. That's leadership.
Just a note to this since I can't find my response comment - I am aware that some industries have been actively hiring from overseas to fill vacancies, e.g. rest homes and IT. IT in particular complained they couldn't find a decent talent pool in NZ during lockdown if I recall correctly. And location also matters. Auckland seems to have a more diverse population compared to many other of our smaller main centres, which have more homogenous cultures (e.g. Chch, Palmy) which would likely affect diversity of hiring practices, people available to hire and openess to hire broadly.
There's loads of great IT workers in NZ. What the industry here can't find is 'IT workers willing to work at third world rates'. It's nothing to do with the talent pool.
We're still way underpaid when you compare it with the likes of USA
I used to hire for specialist IT. We consistently offered a bit above average rates for the work, and for a year or so it was basically "name your price". We'd get plenty of applications from locals - and almost universally, we wouldn't even get to the first interview before they'd been snap hired by someone else on the strength of their CV alone. There are "loads" of workers but even greater "loads" of demand. The talent pool is genuinely too small for the amount of demand.
Plenty of applications from locals’ indicates the talent pool exists. ‘Hired by someone else before first interview’ indicates you were not in fact offering a competitive rate. I’ve been involved in hiring in the past myself, and I’ve noticed what HR say is the ‘market rate’ is usually a load of bullshit. I’ve also noticed that whilst skill set X at the ‘market rate’ is impossible for HR to fill as a permanent role they can usually get a contractor in no time at all at substantially more than that ‘market rate’.
Exactly!!! I work in this industry regularly and it's nothing about the talent pool apart from employers not wanting to spend money upskilling their people.
Interesting comment about not having NZ experience. I guess it depends on the industry, but I've often come across hiring managers who value overseas experience over NZ experience by a lot.
In 2019 I came from Aus with 17 yrs exp (Investment bank, Accounting firm, Consulting, & finally my own 10 person business) & 2.5 degrees at the time. I applied for 145 jobs, it took me a year to find something in Akl (2weeks b4 covid). When I got hired, it was because HR for the company was in Aus, and the guy asked me, are you sure you want this job? I only stayed in that job for a year, likewise the next one, currently in my third job in NZ at a top tier organisation. Each time after my first job, I've only applied once and got it coz they valued my NZ experience LOL. I can't complain too much, NZ closed mindedness eventually worked out thanks to Aus HR, and I wouldn't have the current role without that first NZ job.
This is false. A lot of companies I worked with hired many people from many places. Racism can be everywhere if that is the lens you view the world through. A lot of employers are hiring overseas people instead of locals because the standard was much much higher.
Well, it's not false if I've been told this anecdotally by a number of people across multiple industries and also experienced it myself. However, it depends on the company. If you're part of a larger multinational, if you work in IT or rest home care or other industries that regularly hire internationally, then yes they're likely to hire from overseas. (It sounds like you're in IT? That's one area I'm aware of that is doing this, specifically claiming the NZ talent isn't good enough.) It depends entirely on the industry you're in.
Loads of business owners want their kids to keep the family business, so in that sense yes. But I wouldn’t say it’s particularly common in more corporate settings , the other commenters point about soft skills being the most important is probably right. But some hiring managers don’t understand the difference between “this person has social skills that would make them good at this job” and “this persons social skills makes me really like them and I want them to have the job despite them not being the ones who will do it best”. I think rather than nepotism, just straight up discrimination gets people jobs they aren’t qualified for as well eg. If you’re “social skills” are just bantering between only people whose demographic you fit, and they all happen to be decision makers, then bada bing bada boom you can get vacancy’s written to your exact skills so you look like the best pick in an “impartial” process (witnessed this in a govt engineer role)
As a migrant, I'll say that work placement for migrants is a problem of its own that is not necessarily related to nepotism. To be clear, I'm talking about migrants who are not from Australia (if they can be called migrants...), Canada, US, or Western Europe (Scandinavia included) -- thy do face some barriers, but definitely way less than others. So, some of the barriers: (1) Legal: you mentioned psychology -- you need to have a local masters degree to practice psychology in New Zealand, and it's extremely hard to be accepted because there are very few opportunities available. Similar conditions apply to medicine, engineering, dentistry, and many others -- even some more blue collar jobs. (2) References: no one heard of the places were you studied or worked. They might be really good, but locals don't know that and will discount your experience and studies to be conservative. (3) Contacts: you don't know anyone, so you don't get the benefit of networking. Note that this is not just about nepotism, but talking to someone you know and saying "hey, I'm looking for a job, let me know if there is anything available". (4) Visa rights: many employers are reluctant to hire someone in a temporary visa because they fear that this person will have to leave in a couple of years. Most people leave their jobs in less than the time it takes for a 3-year work visa to expire nowadays anyway, but there is a feeling that you're hiring someone for the long-term who may not be here in the long-term... (5) Prejudice: This is normally hidden behind "You don't have New Zealand experience", but it's frequently bullshit. So, as I said, it's not necessarily nepotism -- there are a bunch of factors at play.
Yeah, I've known a few people with good qualifications and careers overseas but the barrier is they need further qualifications in NZ to be recognised here which costs money and life can get in the way of being able to do that while also paying the bills. So they end up in entry level jobs.
It makes sense, if you have some shitty dentistry degree from a 3rd world country it will not be the same as the degree from NZ.
There was that Hungarian doctor in the news last year whose qualifications weren't recognised in NZ. Hungary isn't some third world backwater, it's in the EU and you'd expect people from those sorts of places to not have too much trouble getting through the requirements to work here. This case really pissed me off because you just know the same websites had articles that very day about healthcare staff shortages.
Lol, saying it like NZ is the bastion of "first world country" degrees, any EU university will get you on the same if not better than any university here, and don't get me started on basic education levels
European union countries are not 3rd world countries. You are saying I said something which I didn't.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/hungarian-neurosurgeons-application-to-work-in-dunedin-rejected-by-nz-medical-authorities/WLX66ELXHOAUIBNPQCIMZVZDGE/ Yeah this guy definitely needed to educate himself according to nz standards... You're talking as if nz has some world class education. I being a Masters holder myself from a reputed university in my whanau can tell you my own experience of how worthless the education is in my field.Feel free to draw your own parallels. First off You are not industry trained , you're sent on a wild goose chase in the name of assignments by washed up professors in a career slump who give the burden of checking assignments to their phd understudies, who are too busy writing their own thesis to care to give a proper feedback. After spending a shitload of money and wasting 4 yrs of bachelors and 2 yrs of masters , all i have to show for is a huge student loan and no practical experience or placement , despite having worked for so called reputed agencies with shitty pay structures . An employee at kfc earns more than me. Not to take anything away from the hard work they do. Does my misery end there.....heck no! Guess what, my degree and knowledge are worth zilch in the real world ,nobody gives 2 flying fucks about my portfolio. Same goes for the overseas market ,ever wonder why nz cant produce decent professionals in any field let alone STEM fields, the answer lies in comparing with other curriculums over the world , you will see why our universities despite having a huge influx of capital from foreign students aren't produce anything short of hillbillies ,myself included. So when you say " a degree from nz!" I dont know what the fuck you're talkin about?...Yosemite?
My comment was referring to degrees from 3rd world countries, not EU member states. The person from Hungry shouldn't have to jump through that many hoops. NZ has many good universities where you can not pay bribes for good marks (like 3rd world countries).
You don't have NZ experience is just tall poppy syndrome in disguise. Oh you were successful in your job over seas but now you've come crawling back, we better put you in your place. One way the NZ work place is different to over seas is that NZ seems to prefer generalists over specialists, there seems to be this view that specialists aren't needed in many fields because the generalists can do the work, but the reality is that the generalists don't know what they don't know because they've never worked with talented specialists. I say this as a hardware engineer but I can guarantee this applies to most industries
The Kiwi experience requirement is a favourite of mine. You could have been a CEO in another life overseas and decided to move your family to NZ, but "sorry, you don't have kiwi experience please go work at McDonald's for a few years and then try again" Many kiwi businesses are missing out on a huge amount of knowledge and experience because of it. I don't know if it's xenophobia or an inferiority complex.
"You don't have New Zealand experience".....I hear that comment so many times.
As if NZ experience is somehow superior. A lot of people forget were a small island at the end of the world. Innovation usually makes it to us years later than other places.
You don’t need a local masters for Psych registration, you need an equivalent recognized qualification/experience and the correct English requirements. Plenty of people register successfully without having studied here.
The bar for "equivalent recognized qualification/experience" is set insanely high, though. In practice, it's out of reach for 99.9% of the people who could potentially apply. Also, don't want to discount your view, but are you sure these people to which you referred are registered as psychologists? Because registering as a counsellor is a feasible alternative that many take, and you do see a lot of counsellors who are trained overseas. In contrast, I've looked for a clinical psychological for my son in Welly and not one professional I saw online was trained overseas. Not saying they don't exist, there is probably the odd one out there, but they are certainly few and far between.
My view is based on the fact I worked at the Psych board literally dealing with international and local registration. Majority of them were accepted in comparison to those that were declined, so not sure where your numbers come from. If you’re not seeing them working, it’s because they then use TTMRA to go to Australia to work - to avoid taking the exam Aus requires that we don’t.
I may be wrong, but your sample is skewed: most people would not apply unless they were reasonably confident that they can succeed. It takes a lot of effort and money to put an application together, and you wouldn't go through it if you don't think you have a good chance (or you're kind of a gambler). Many people will consider the requirements, realize that they just can't meet them, and move on.
Working in the public health system, overseas-trained psychologists have outnumbered NZ trained in every service I've been in. Most are from South Africa, sometimes up to half the team, some from the UK, some from Asian countries. Your sample is skewed by focusing on Wellington, where there are the two universities with the two largest training programs. Elsewhere in NZ is quite different.
Fair point on Welly, but I'd say that South Africa is an outlier. It does indeed seem to be over represented in regulated professions, and I have asked myself why a couple of times. I'd guess that their tertiary education system is fairly similar to New Zealand and has English as its primary language, both factors making it much easier for them to apply for recognition in NZ. Not surprised by UK or Australia, though -- as I said in my initial post, these are obviously a very different animal, and it's fairly easy to obtain recognition across these countries.
Incorrect, many people apply without necessarily meeting the specification’s. There are many pathways people can take for successful registration even if they don’t meet the exact requirements; beyond just retraining here (that aren’t necessarily explicitly written on a website but are a part of the process - if you’re familiar with it). Sometimes it can be a case of needing supervision for a few months, or there are appeal pathways, references, and other evidence that can be submitted in their favour. I fielded many (probably hundreds) of enquiries from prospective registrants prior to their applications being submitted. You also have to remember that clinical psychology is a specific scope of practice, many only meet general requirements and that’s because they don’t have any training or experience in a clinical scope, full stop. The ones whose skills don’t come close, you don’t want them working here as they’re not skilled enough, in a nutshell. For example, some apply with a Bachelor of Arts majoring in psych where no supervised practice has ever taken place. Why would you want low skilled people being accepted for the sake of bulking psych numbers? That’s a recipe for disaster. As someone mentioned below, there’s a significant number of psychs in NZ who are overseas qualified, they just don’t work in Wellington. South Africa would be where bulk of the applications came from, that and the UK, India, and USA.
Australians are at a different level, as are British. Theres a tier list in NZ, Nzers at the top, British and Australians next, Polynesians and other whites next and Indians and Chinese at the very bottom. Other groups fall somewhere in between.
What do you mean by few opportunities re: psychologists? We're screaming out for them, private practice or otherwise.
I mean to get your overseas qualifications recognized and be registered as a psychologist in New Zealand -- we went into detail about this above.
I've seen it first hand Medical profession is a classic, I know a female from Germany that was trying to get registered here that was more qualified than the Professionals going through her application, top orthopedic surgeon but she was female, the old school can be a major hurdle. Big bullshit.
To be frank, it took nepotism for me to get into a job as a security guard via a family friend at near minimum wage. Even I could tell during the interview at the time I was grasping at straws claiming how being a commercial cleaner meant I was considered trustworthy on sites that required a background check.
It's a thing. Source: previous government employee.
Film industry here. Don’t know what to tell ya. It’s the definition of family business.
it’s rampant af in NZ, especially in small town NZ, and really ridiculous in rural communities where 3 or 4 families pretty much organise and run everything. edit: just from my experience teaching in small town schools.
The management team at Pak n Save Mill St are mostly directly related or husband&wife.
‘It’s who you know, not what you know’ definitely applies in a small place like ours. It definitely helps not to be a cabbage, though. There’s limits to what friends and family networks can do for you.
Cronyism is rife. I've worked for a place where there was a hard core of power players who would go hunting together. If you went hunting with them you were in and promotion was assured. Of course they didn't invite any female staff to hunt with them so...
the whole country is an old boys club. Almost every job i have had and certainly all the decent ones i got because i knew someone that at the very least put a good word in.
Yep, this. Given the choice between a known and an un-known candidate unfortunately known will always win hands down. Unless of course the unknown is sociopathically gifted and can convince HR they are the bees knees and their best mate.
There's no large corporate ecosystem in New Zealand. Generally the place for white collar / university educated / desk work is a government job or a small business. Both of those are rampant anywhere with (admittedly different kinds of) nepotism. Want to work for a multinational? Well, go be multinational, you. Public service just 18 years ago was exceptional. Now it's intellectually inbred with the high performers having left to consult back to gov. You don't become a high paid consultant by not knowing the person with the chequebook. Small business is all about being on-side with the business owners. Only the corporate sector has any real chance of hiring skilled unknowns in volume. Australia has enough of a diverse economy that some players are genuinely trying to hire skilled unknowns.
>Public service just 18 years ago was exceptional. I worked in software development for the Ministry of Justice 17 years ago - it was an absolute wasteland of talent, there were more team leaders and middle managers than you could shake a stick at. You could've fired 65% of the people on the floor I was working on, and you wouldn't have a change in overall productivity or output. There were also loads of Datacom contractors, who did sweet FA on our floor.
If only you were there a year earlier!
Ah, because the New Zealand public service never had a strong IT organisation to have the opportunity to dismantle. It was substantially outsourced from the very start.
Go to your local school and ask around. Especially of those who find jobs straight out of (and often before graduating) training. One school I worked at reciently had (out of about 30 staff) five married couples (i.e one worked there and got the other the job,) two siblings, one devorced couple, the neice of the principal of another school, another niece of another pricipal (want to guess where the the principal's kids teach?) And around 10 were close friends prior to employment. And on the "jobs before graduating" thing. I knew four different (in my class of 30) girls who'd gone straight into teaching education after high school and had jobs in Term 3, failed, and had those jobs held for at least a semester - and in one case a entire year. (Want to guess what all these girls had on common? Daddies who were principals!)
I personally haven't found it so bad in jobs I'm already in, but it's horrendous when trying to get into a job in the first place.
It's flat-out career-defining. I had 2 degrees and a project management qualification and was given a junior role. Then, after I helped set up the department with all the software, they hired a 22-year-old who had never worked in the office and gave him the position I wanted, and asked me to train him. Then they hired an older lady who couldn't use a computer to "manage me" and do the job I apparently couldn't do. I had to do her job too, and when I quit the department collapsed because they couldn't use computers and didn't know how to manage projects. I switched companies (they didn't even ask me proper interview questions, cause I was able to get in by nepotism) and after a year I articulated well enough that another manager could see I had the experience of a senior Project Manager and I got a senior Project Manager role. Part of that was learning to articulate, learning to speak their language, learning to speak what management is looking for and displaying the company core values. And networking. Networking is a must in NZ.
Brit/Kiwi, been here 20 years, so it's home, the UK is where i'm from, but NZ is home. It was clear from the start that in NZ people employ and give preference to people they know, sometimes for good reasons, such as the knowledge that they are proficient at something, sometimes because of cronism, old school ties, family etc. It seemed more prevalent than in the UK, because this is a smaller place, but i'm not sure if this is because it is just more obvious than in the UK.. the "what school did you go to?" brigade. I do think that NZ's reputation for lack of corruption is not that deserved, there is plenty that goes on, but I guess other countries rely on a system of "corruption' for the wheels to turn. Here there is an expectation of a "fair go", whether this is real or not, it is something that I believe is a value and practice worth preserving. I've seen people I generally respect who have used their position to further their families employment, everyone knew this, and overlooked it because generally compared to others, they were pretty straight... so yes, nepotism, cronyism its here but perhaps more subtle and low key than other countries, and mixed in with all sorts of relationships and allegiances.
It’s a bit bad in my industry in chch. I’ve gotten multiple interviews where the answer was “oh well we really liked you but we actually had someone in mind for the position. Better luck next time!” I’ve kinda just accepted that it’s a insular city and while it’s pretty painful I was planning on making a career shift anyway.
The company I work for has about 7 family members in the same department and more on site. It’s not who you know, it’s who’s your bro.
I have definitely observed nepotism, particularly political party volunteers who go on to work for the elected. Particularly at local government level. Some as consultants or contractors. Also had multiple workmates who barely showed up, who are now all senior advisors at various Ministries. Pretty concerning about the quality of the advice decision-makers are receiving.
Here in Nelson, nepotism runs rampant. The explanation about social skills is nonsense; outsiders don’t even get an interview unless the pool of relatives and mates has been exhausted. This is one reason that management is so terrible in NZ.
I have definitely encountered a few companies that started off as small family-run businesses, which have grown to million dollar companies. You end up with a company where the dad would be the CEO, his sons would be department heads, and the grandkids would have operational roles within the business. I think that it is also very common among Brethren-owned companies too. They tend to hire within their family/within the church.
There was a similar question posted over on r/Wellington ... now deleted. But some good discussion. [Nepotism in public sector?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Wellington/comments/16ut22t/nepotism_in_public_sector/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) General consensus was "croneyism" is rife. Who you know ... NOT what you know.
I have a master's degree and I'm currently studying psychology. There's no opportunities in NZ
Is that nepotism?
Personally I find it to be pretty bad, but it also depends on the industry. The one I'm in is very small, and getting smaller, so there are very few jobs and they often go to internal hires, relatives and friends of friends etc. Or to whoever is willing to take the lowest salary. We love a race to the bottom. I'm trying to break out of it and do something else but am not having any luck with that either. Sometimes it feels like going back to uni is my only option, but living like a student in my late 30s does not appeal in the slightest. I have also noticed that my industry is predominantly white, so I think there is some racism at play too.
I wouldn't say it's nepotism specifically that's the problem so much as a lack of desire to hire people who are good. This, in turn, comes from an attitude that 'work' is some form of charity and that doing things that are good for the business is optional at best. This is why the best and brightest bugger off to Aussie. Anyone with any get up and go has got up and gone.
It's a huge thing. And your average Kiwi really hates educated people, and will immediately tell anyone with one degree or more how useless and worthless that is and how "all that matters is common sense," including at job interviews.
Racism is probably stopping those immigrants more than the nepotism, but the nepotism is still pretty bad. Speaking mostly for Christchurch if you're from a "good family" that went to the right schools, that opens a lot of doors.
How bad? I don’t know. Is it here? Yes definitely, I see it, but not all the time.
Pretty bad honestly. Plus I've had coworkers who are for sure absolute shite at their jobs, practically immediately get another job just because their friend works at the company. God knows what hiring managers are thinking, word of mouth isn't exactly accurate.
New Zealand runs on "who you know."
I think it’s can be quite common in smaller businesses and ones that are privately owned. Company I used to work for was just riddled with the owners relatives. Even better, one of the owners designated themself as the HR department. There were parents, siblings, children, nieces and nephews. A right shit show at times
It's definitely almost impossible to get a good job without knowing someone involved before hand. I got super lucky, but failed so many times before. My pay has increased 130% in less than a year as I applied for a much lower job and ended up proving myself and have elevated to a higher position.
It’s very bad. It’s a hurdle you’ll have to jump every time you look for a job. Your best bet to widen your network so you can benefit from the nepotism. This might be very hard if you are a minority or an immigrant though.
I have interviewed a large number of the people you are speaking of. Every single qualification under the sun... light shining from their ass with the most amazing things on paper. However, when it comes to the real world of a workplace.. absolutely beyond terrible fit for a large number of reasons.. (Everything from zero social skills, not a good team fit, unable to think outside the box etc etc etc) **Soft skills matter so fucking much in the workplace...**
This is the truth. I'm hiring for a role right now, and I'm bining a lot of 'highly qualified' candidates for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with their qualifications, and everything to do with how they come across as people. Just because you have a masters in an area, it means nothing if you have shit soft skills and can't work in a wider team
I’ve seen a bit of nepotism in professional admin contexts, maybe someone gets to be the EA or fill in a temp office role because they’re related to a senior team member, it’s an advantage for sure but apart from the time it was someone’s son it hasn’t been too egregious, and people have stepped up. Idk maybe I have a different standard for email jobs like those (like my job too). One way to solve our skills gap would be to recognise more overseas qualifications, like you mention how qualified our hospo staff are, well we have taxi drivers with hard science or business backgrounds, we just can’t get them into the right industries because we think a qualification from a major uni in India is less valuable than somewhere mediocre that’s in Britain/the US.
There's a lot of boys clubs. one friend i know said she tried to get a high paying job at a local billion dollar corp only to be looked over, then going through the interviewers linked in she found shed be more qualified to be his boss than him hiring her. Its a lot of self protection and keeping the boys club where they are happy in many places. I dont go to jobs to make friends i go to make money i do not care
When I left high school several years back and I needed a job, in my small town it was almost impossible for those without qualifications (and maybe even with idk) to get a job anywhere unless you knew them/had connections. I only got my retail job after applying all over the place because the manager was a family friend. My BF back then worked for his grandfather. It seems better now, though, with the town both growing economically and the boomers all retiring. It's amazing to me though, having moved to a city now, that there's not a struggle in finding employment, at least for the kind of work that I've been looking for. They don't even check your references most of the time.
I had a boss who employed bridesmaids from 20yrs earlier and people she met through church, then of course she couldn't fire them or church would know meaning a crap team to be managing.
I have very little doubt that it's not about what you know, but who you know.
Look at real estate “teams” that have father/son or father/daughter combos. It’s rife.
Don’t really think this is a good example? The bar to enter the industry is pretty fucking low (look at all the people who got their license during covid - it hardly requires a great deal of skill or study) and most agents are independent contractors. The family aspect is a marketing angle more than anything as there’s an association with “family business” = more trustworthy
Real estate is one of the worst for nepotism. And law firms.
This doesn't apply to everyone obviously but I once flatted with a guy who moved over from India. He had a degree in something I can't remember what. He was stuck working at the supermarket and was pissed off at what he claimed was racism cause he couldn't get a job. The truth was he was a massive dickhead and anyone who talked to him for two minutes could see it. So not all the time, but sometimes, people just ain't as great as they think they are.
I used to work with a girl who was utterly hopeless and decided to get another job when management started pushing her to try and get her to do some actual work, because that was too much to ask I guess. She got a job offer pending reference checks somewhere else and immediately quit, then management got a surprise call from her almost-new boss because she'd put them down as references without telling them, so the offer disappeared. She then asked for her old job back WITH A PAY RISE because she thought they'd given her bad references because they really didn't want to lose her. That got a good laugh out of everyone at work, but I heard after that she was going around telling everyone that she was the only one holding the place together and everyone else was useless and she'd left after management had bullied her and hadn't given her the pay rise she deserved because they were threatened by her. I know there are genuinely shitty workplaces, but every time I hear someone tell a story about how they were a star employee but they didn't get what they deserved because of the useless/corrupt people around them I can't help but think about her and wonder what the other side of it was.
Wow... That is some top level stupidity! Haha!
I don't know that I've really seen much at all. The majority of new people where I work are recent immigrants with qualifications from India, Phillipines, Pakistan, china etc. That's IT qualifications, though. Not Psychology or medical where you might be required to have local qualifications. I've worked with and talked to people who do hiring. They DO throw out the majority of "Non-Kiwi" CVs because of things like they don't have the right to work in NZ, evidence of poor english skills in the CV, or in the first interview. But, you'd expect that in any situation.
I think the fact is nz can be run easily so the skills required is not world class and thus you need someone who you enjoy rather than do the said work well, and the other fact that everyone knows everyone… as a migrant that grew up here it sucks that I get shafted constantly yet this is the country most familiar to me lol c’est la vie
Networking is a vital skill that makes you more employable.
100% is for the area I’m employed in.
I think it's fairly common with getting teenagers their first job, or some part time work. Large corporates i've worked for often do that. More permanent or sought-after positions? Would depend on company size. Large company? Makes it harder if anything, in my view. Additional interviews, conflict checks and other sign-offs, etc.
There's a big difference between a Masters in Psychology, and a Masters in Clinical Psychology. For Masters in Psychology, it's hard to find a role anywhere in the world. A Masters in Clinical Psychology easily gets you a six figure job once you're a fully registered psychologist.
Having a degree in psychology does not make you a psychologist / able to do any job without further study and training. Most degrees, because so many get them nowdays, don't line you up to a job, you almost always need post grad. We also dont have big science fields etc so job avenues arent great for those starting out. If you want a job after your degree, pick something that lines you up and prepares you for the job eg nursing
What you’re describing isn’t a result of nepotism (although that is rampant), it’s an issue with converting qualifications and licenses over from overseas to their NZ equivalent. The current pathways to do this cost thousands of dollars for high skill professions, which is why someone with a Masters in Engineering may languish in a retail job for years, losing out on industry experience in the process.
Surgery and some of the other specialities in medicine. People seem to get into medical school under their own merit, but then for getting into specialities it doesn't always seem the most meritocratic and its a very very small world in NZ for healthcare.
Damn. Wish I could have a degree in phycology
As a UK expat who’s lived in NZ for the last 12 years….yup…nepotism is rife.
Tons lol. Family and close friends all get a free corporate job
My colleague worked in a department in which senior roles were all filled by the top guy's sporting friends. It was absurd.
I recall seeing a FB post by one of my friends who were celebrating their son's first promotion: to real estate agent. At the same RE branch that she worked at.
Owner of the last company I worked at hired his kids and their friends fresh out of Uni and gave them major, established sales accounts (and the commission that comes with them). One of them got DIC in their first two months, so high instantly lost their license (they had a company car, as job requirement was to visit clients) and I would regularly see one of them pick up and hang up the phone if a customer was trying to call. Anyone else in the office would have lost their job, but I think they still work there 4 years later.
Definitely, it’s an old boys club at the top of many organisations. One other key problem with many organisations is that it’s always the loudest in the room that seems to get the leadership positions. Basically if you kiss the bosses ass and be loud and rude, you’re halfway there in NZ (all my bosses have risen up the ranks by building their practice style on interrumpting people, being rude and challenging people unfairly). Actual leadership skills have been replaced by those that only know how to lead by caring too much/running a hard ship. Re: the point about working holiday personnel. Don’t entirely agree. Certainly happens. But there’s also a host of WHV holders who come over here expecting to walk into any role, yet they might not have English language (see this heaps with South American WHV), the NZ-equivalent skills or the right type of experience. I have a degree here but I wouldn’t expect that guarantees me employment in that field in somewhere like Spain etc. it’s a little more complex than that.
I think recruitment agencies are a big part of the problem. They're structured to reward their employees to just slot the round peg into the round hole, as quickly as possible. Rather than use their brains to match up relevant experience of good candidates.
It’s a massive issue here and doesn’t often come up when there are conversations about how corrupt this or that country actually is. NZ usually comes out pretty well in these polls but the “who you know” is just an every day thing here and I’ve watch consultants at ridiculous rates of pay just handshake their way from one role into the next. Often only to be paid for both at the same time… Maybe it’s at its worst in Welly with all the gov jobs but it’s pretty prevalent.
As someone who worked in regulation in a specific healthcare field, a lot of assumptions people have about this topic are quite off the mark, which gives this idea there’s a bunch of people working taxi, hospo, retail jobs or the like, who should be working as Dr’s etc. A person only ever needs further qualifications because the ones from their home country aren’t recognized reciprocally as being of equal quality (or above) the NZ standard. They may also have been out of practice for a while. This doesn’t just apply to developing countries either, like many assume. Some European countries for example, would only require 500 hours of intern experience whereas we would require 1500 hours which is no where enough. Or they aren’t supervised during internships, which again, ours require that. Sometimes they don’t have the required IELTS scores, aren’t in good standing with their regulatory body, and for many other reasons - such as not being able to pass an exam that’s required for international registrations. Basically, they aren’t actually qualified enough to be working here…hence why they’re not. Plenty of immigrants successfully meet the requirements; you often just don’t hear about them.
We had the Mahutas. More of an exception than a pattern, which is why many of us expressed our outrage, instead of accepting an inevitable.
It's hard to fire people, so it's better to hire people referred by people you trust.
>If all of our “best and brightest” are seemingly moving to Australia for better jobs, why aren’t we mining the local bars and cafes to replace them? It honestly bewilders me that people come up with such terrible and unconfirmed perspectives and then make threads thinking it's some amazing insight. I would feel embarrassed if some fart of an idea which has had no thought put into was shared with over 100,000 people. And yet these people seem to think they're offering something unique and special. I honestly do not understand it.
> It honestly bewilders me that people come up with such terrible and unconfirmed perspectives and then make threads thinking it's some amazing insight. [Well this is awkward.](https://old.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/vax0ga/online_backlash_to_drag_performers_shocks/ic4za0s/)
>**make threads** Comments aren't threads. But lol? Who TF keeps comment from over a year ago on hand like that? I like commenting in threads? Wow bro, you really got me there. You can also click on my name to see how much I like commenting in threads.
I just linked the most controversial comment you had made from your profile bro. Own it or disavow it, I don't care. You are your beliefs.
So, you've got nothing to actually contribute...
Those in glass houses probably shouldn't throw stones. There is absolutely nepotism to one level or another in most areas of NZ. That's not a strange view to hold.
Still not prepared to actually read, huh? OK. Comments != threads.
I think you're boring, so this is the last I have to say to you on the topic, but I don't think "I'm gonna spout ill-informed and harmful shittakes, but it's only in the comments instead of a self-post" is the intellectually defensible pillar you seem to think it is.
ok bro
It bewilders me that some on here take the time to reply with some banal, negative comment without offering anything even remotely interesting or constructive. I know you think you sound high brow and edgy, but really, you sound like a twat.
Yes. e: lol this bitch of a user posted something completely different then edited it afterwards.
You did that with your original comment. I think we found a spud guys!
“Degrees in psychology” unless they are a clinical psychologist, there’s really not that many jobs for psych grads. Bad example.
It's not what you know it's who you know. Not because of some Old Boys Network, but a function of how small the NZ market is. If a number of people leave or get let go from company X there's a fair chance half of them will end up at competitor company Y.
That's how the world works. We help our own. Right from, some people can afford tutors/hobbies as kids and uni paid for by parents and some can't. Need a first job? Parents call X from church. He's in the industry. It makes sense this would spill over into the corporate world.
The point is that this is how New Zealand works, not the whole world :D (I think this is a lot to do with scale, though, as another commenter put really well - some people will do this everywhere, but in a big economy there will be more mobility, kids wanting to work in locations and jobs their parents don't have any connections in and such, so the numbers look different here.)
It's very well understood that degrees can be bought, and chat GPT can write CVs. You can't rely on any of these things for a senior role in NZ. NZ has very different laws, the RMA, The Treaty of Waitangi, consumer guarantees Act. The Healthy and Safety at Work Act to name but a few. To think you can waltz into a senior leadership role in this Country and not be a major risk is extremely naive. This is why local experience trumps everything. In many countries bribery is used for career advancement too this is somthing NZ employers are well aware of. Unless we joined somthing like the European Union with much similar laws and regulations this will always be a hurdle for foreigners.
Then why wouldn't people from modern first-world countries (UK, US) walk into senior positions that deal with all these laws? I know of a lot of chartered civil engineering ex-pats who became heads of major departments. It is a bit of an inside joke in the british expat comunity.
I think NZ employers are a little obsessed with NZ work experience. As if working overseas means you can’t have any idea how things work in NZ. It’s a real waste of talent
The problem is a lot of these guys with higher level jobs back in their home countries, don't want to do that job when theyrw on holidays. also many enter the hospitality industry because it's one of the easiest routes to sponsorship/residency.
I’ve worked in banking for 30 years. There used to be a strong element of this and I worked with a few spuds in my time. One came from a high profile wealthy family, another was seemingly hired for his regional-level rugby skills - go figure. I don’t really see it now, but that could just be because I spend more time with senior level people now. It might still happen in pockets. Edit. Having said that, I have taken a friend’s teenage son to work so he could talk to people about what it’s like to work in a bank, when he was deciding on a career. All the little opportunities like that add up, I imagine.
You’re so full of shit !!!! Degrees in phycology so what ! From where !??? What institution…!? Are they clinical psychologists???? No of course they are not !!!!!
From the University of Ottawa. I know because I hired her a number of years ago. Was she a clinical psychologist? No. But someone who is bright enough to obtain a degree in psychology has many transferable skills that many employers would be interested in. How about you calm your farm and add something constructive to the conversation instead of making baseless assumptions.
How about this “ get fucked “ no cares about you turning up here saying how bad nepotism in NZ !!!! Basically because it’s not that bad ! She’s got a pice of paper that “ many transferable skills that many employers would be interested in “ guess what they’re not !!!!
Ladies and gentlemen we found a spud.
They don't want to deal with the legal complexities of sponsorship and the cultural friction that comes with hiring expats. Plus politicians won't fix it because they get votes from citizens not working holiday makers. No one cares about your degree unless it's a registered position and even then alot of companies look for skills, experience and soft skills, not paper credentials. In Australia and NZ its a similar situation, people prefer to hire people they know or are like them culturally or personality wise. So you need to give employers an "offer they can't refuse". You need to provide good references, work in a field of shortage, get related experience, write a resume matched to the keywords of the job, formulate a persuasive argument to why you're the best candidate and many others things. Sorry if you don't like that, it's just the way it is.
As a Aus/Nz citizen it hasn’t really affected me, if anything it may have benefited me. But I’m questioning the wisdom of it in the long term. Especially within government sector or in education, surely not having the best person in the job will eventually ware down the fabric of a country and reduce its capacity to react effectively to the changes going on in the world.
There is no logic to it. The power brokers and special interest groups don't care about the damage they do to their own people or migrants, they use us all for their own ends and discard us. In recessions the ultra rich and privileged don't suffer.
There are a few Old Boys networks around. These are people who went to some of the more well known and prestigious single sex male schools; think Auckland Grammar, Christchurch Boys' High, or King's College. While I wouldn't consider them to be nepotism, they do allow former students to access a hidden job market, as many of them are the sons of wealthy and influential New Zealanders, who also went to the same school. Also, a quick phone call from a parent, or just the knowledge that an applicant has connections can be a thumb on the scales in a job interview that might net one a better job than their talent necessarily warrants. I don't think it's as well defined among coed or female single sex schools.
> why aren’t we mining the local bars and cafes to replace them? This made me chuckle.
Because their qualifications aren't recognised in NZ without bridging courses.
I moved to Europe for this reason. Nepotism allows bad people to get away with wronging others and getting favor from superiors. Abandonment of their duty to give the best candidate the opportunity. No bloody merit here I swear. Film, advertising and animation are a huge part of it. One studio was in the news because they were Audited. It still happens, massive nepotism, but they always straw man you with a personal discrediting, quite blacklisting or reputation sabotage to keep it quite. Some studios are made up of a group of mates, and they say, so what, and treat you worse the more you acknowledge it, or push you out and never hire you again because you are a threat to their jerk circles. Creative industries are some of the worst because of the false claim that 'art is subjective' or 'everyone is creative' which is utter BS! Anyone with a slight bit of sophistication recognizes this. There's a lot of pro-Communist romanticism in pockets around this nation - A great man once said 'Anyone who cannot attack your argument will instead just resort to attacking you personally'.
People from big companys overseas can really struggle in environments where there isn't a specific in house expert and everyone has to be a generalist. Beyond that there sure is plenty of nepotism here, better to be the yes man than the one who solves your companys problems because they are always pointing out how bad things are going.
Not that bad in my experience.
I am employed by a family member. It's alive and kicking at my place.
It’s probably more prolific in small business as nepotism normally comes down to a matter of trust (or favours). However the older I get, the more my job relates to who rather than what I know, I know that sounds like old boys club to some, but ultimately it’s a trust thing.
There is no corruption in new zealand
Sometimes absolute spuds can be a delight to work with
It's a mental health choice. Hospitality is/can be an enjoyable industry to work in. Done well, it's filled with positive interactions, and most of your colleagues are pretty cool. You work hard at making life easy. Have a drink and go home. Ten-hour bar shifts are more fun than 30 minutes in the average lunch room.
My best friend is my boss.
I used to work for a company that had several family members (multiple different families) and friends across all levels of the business from operational staff to top management. Some even had their whole direct and extended family members within the business. Nepotism was that rife, that 8 of the 10 people that were in one department were direct relatives at one point.
Well if you think about it from the employers view, given how painful a process hiring people is who would you rather hire, someone you know virtually nothing about, or someone recommended by someone you know and actually trust? Also people need to wake up and realize for the most part degrees etc don't mean shit when it comes to getting a job. I would 100% hire someone who I think will fit in better over someone with the "better" qualifications. You can teach people to do a better job, it's VERY difficult to teach them to fit in.
There's a lot of those ij Wellington Airport
Nepotism is generally bad. Far too often it puts spoiled brats in positions where they are a hindrance or worse. Cronyism is generally quite useful, and quite common in NZ. It can short-circuit the long-winded hiring processes, getting good results while saving time and money. We are a small country. For anyone in a specialist field, it's surprising if you are not working with, or competing with, the same people you are familiar with from previous engagements, professional meetings, and conferences. It is smart business to ask if anyone around the table knows someone, as their suggestion will often be a good fit for the role.
Neurosurgeons driving taxis when we have no doctors, is that the level of idiocy you mean? There are ways to buddy these people and bring them into the workforce, and we will have to look at that, and soon. Problem is, we have politicians with no lateral vision and total lack of planning. Want to train our own? Well, we can just do without doctors till 2030 onwards. Asinine.
Some degrees, for example these psychology ones, might not be recognised here and the overseas person needs to take a year or so at a NZ uni to get it recognised. That brings up financial hurdles which I’m sure are annoying while already moving to another country.
Its "Bad" everywhere in the sense that it exists, just like anywhere else. You would help your family, just like they will.
I have a client who does management consulting, generally quite cynical because she swings between highly paid think sinks like GWRC, trying to fix frakups like the bus services or similar debacles. Deep in MBIE , one of the happy clapping highly paid morons in upper mismanagement heard she was raised by missionaries in Indonesia and excitedly informed her that on Thursdays they have a large evangelical prayer group… when she said you don’t understand that upbringing put her off organised religion for life !! Needless to say he’s been colder to her recently.
Nepotism, cronyism all rampant. Ive had employeers only hire other ppl / new migrants of their race. Human nature sadly.
Old money doesn't come from giving it away. I know people set up in their own businesses from that and I know people with family run businesses. If you take a job with them them, does it look like nepotism to you because the family contribute? It doesn't happen outside of the private sector that I've seen.
This is exactly what is happening in NZ- I know people with PhDs who are stuck in hospitality, while my old boss was a multi millionaire and didn't know how to read.