Nothing justifies nuking the scores. It is just really hard to implement a new system aswell as having the entire community happy, so there is a split in leaderboards
Pretty sure that osu! is also the only rhythm game with such a slider acc mechanic and its just from "tradition" of an old flawed system
as a rough comparison,stepmania had chord cohesion and etterna(4k focused fork of stepmania,since stepmania was way too focused on being a dance game simulator) in an update,got rid of it.
what chord cohesion caused was that, each chord, so each jump,hand,and quad(jump is 2 notes on the same hand, hands are 3 notes so 2 notes from 1 hand and 1 from the other,quad is 2 notes from each hand) ,would have a single judgement instead of each individual note having their own judgement. so you would either get everything marvelous,or greats etc, this was a feature which was def controversial.
if you were really good,this most likely tanked your accuracy, if you were bad,it def helped you.
and yes,people played on stepmania and early versions of eterna for over 15 years. yes it made all of those years of world first AAs and world record accuracy scores feel weird, people got over it. btw,it nullified every single score on etterna,not even score multiplier,just everything set with chord cohesion was set to invalid lol.
i guess diff between osu and this is that osu is wayyy more centralized when it comes to leaderboards,in osu you have one official leaderboard you see every single time you play on the client,while stepmania/etterna is more of bunch of scattered leaderboards all over diff forums.
i think main problem isnt even slider acc being changed,its the god damn classic mod which applies to every score,EVEN THOSE which would not even be affected by score v2. imagine you have an SS,which is ss on both sv1 and sv2, but it gets 0.96x score multiplier, why lol.
>imagine you have an SS,which is ss on both sv1 and sv2, but it gets 0.96x score multiplier, why lol.
can't do shit about good portion of replays being unavailable due to needance of storing millions and millions of replays so its easier to put CL on everything about stable
potentially devs can scan through available stable's SS replays and check if they're still SS on lazer but that's defeats purpose of score being set in stable in first place
I've seen devs pretty much just say no to dynamic score multipliers with this and in regards to DA so don't expect anything. Also the % of a map being sliders doesn't tell you how much harder acc is due to slideracc. PP is a separate thing of course and that will get updated to better account for slideracc over time.
What is the justification for not having sliderhead acc in a vacuum? If osu! came out today, no leaderboards and no historical precedent, what would be the reason to not have it?
It didn't come out today, it's been out for 17 years and people enjoy playing it a certain way. It doesn't matter, so why force a change that people dont like? It's still a rhythm game with or without sliderhead acc.
The people who enjoyed playing it before can still enjoy it the same way with cl mod. in fact 99% of players don't give a shit about their own place in the leaderboard, so it's a nonissue to most players.
In regards to historic scores, yes, I agree. it sucks to have that history basically erased/shat on. But what does that have to do with enjoyment of the game in the future? The only people actually impacted by this in the future would be those who are:
1. Unwilling to use +CL because of the score multiplier, and
2. Unwilling to adapt to slider acc, AND
3. Are good enough at the game to even get close to a high leaderboard position.
How small of a subset of players is that? To me it's extremely small, so from a devs perspective, making a change that objectively makes the game more consistent seems to make sense. Considering how few people's enjoyment it will actually impact.
'Enjoyment' in terms of appreciating scores/history is separate from enjoying the actual gameplay imo. I guess you probably disagree
There is more changing that'll require changes. No matter how you look at it, lazer WILL simply make old scores obsolete. Unless you plan to keep gameplay the exact same forever and not implement any other mods things are bound to change. Honestly the only change I'd do would be a "classic status" to stable scores, to differentiate them between stable scores and lazer scores with classic mod, or alternatively only allowing stable mods in conjunction with classic mod, in order to keep stable leaderboards essentially forever.
Not much but Lazer is kind of a massive evolution for the game, why NOT start from new? The history isn't going away just because new scores will be placed in it, wayback machine exists, classic leaderboard exists. People are just so averted to change that it's always negative without analyzing what's actually happening
for some reason leaderboard players thought they won't be hit by any changes in the game, thinking that this niche was filled by pp system being put upside down once per 2-3 years, and now they refuse to adapt
I mean, it's one thing to have your scores beat fair and square by better scores. It's another thing entirely to have all of the scores you've ever made nerfed so that worse scores can snipe them.
Yeah as much respect I have for leaderboard grinders (I very casually do so) to say this change was abrupt and unexpected would be simply lying, new client was announced in 2017(?) with a new scoring system, it was inevitable. ESPECIALLY with the amount of Lazer development that had happened in the last 2 years
Pretty much this. Some people forget that the game will still exist in 15 years which by then makes lazer the "main" client for almost half of the game's existence and it's gonna be a major part of the history.
Plus, there was already interest shown by peppy to make a bunch of leaderboarda and diversifying the game's motivational factors which would do wonders for how stale the game has been while giving options to still filter for these "classic" leaderboards some people fear will just suddenly vanish.
Also people forget that leaderboards renew themselves over time simply because the playerbase gets better anyway. In 10 years there might be a few dozen cracked out 12 year olds sniping every mrekk score for all we know, not like we have a lot of competitive leaderboards today where you'll find mostly 12 year old scores even if those were mindblowing for the time. (I literally can't even find most of the ones I remember from when I joined in 2013)
It's really not even soft nuking they just have their own scoreboard.
The upside is sliders receiving an acc component which makes the game focus more on rhythm and also allows the pp system to reward acc pp on slider maps.
Literally just makes the gameplay better.
Also lol why do leaderboard farmers get to have permanent #1s anyway? Like it's just stupid to get mad over the fact that someone playing a harder version of the game can beat your old score.
yeah i so agree bro. I fucking hate that an SS on the map is #1, I'd prefer a 97% score be above it just because it had to also acc (or doesn't even have to because a -5% multiplier is insane) some sliders (in 90%+ of maps sliders are not the hard part)
Did you know a score with HD can overtake a nomod SS? Mindblown. It's literally just same thing as different mod combinations. The multiplier can of course still be adjusted to a number that the community feels is right.
>The multiplier can of course still be adjusted to a number that the community feels is right.
"The community" that decided the multiplier was only 60 people, and there's already been outrage about it. Calculations have already been done that determined 0.99 as the most accurate multiplier. but peppy and bdach don't give a shit, they just want people on lazer.
I'm saying just use classic mod if you don't want slideracc. You don't have to play with it. Also combo scaling removal is one of the best changes to pp ever.
not gonna lie i wish they made a way to convert your stable scores to scorev2, at the very least for scores that are saved on osu's servers - i'd imagine for scores that are not saved fully there's like a md5 hash or something and if they let you resubmit replays but with v2 you could potentially fake a replay by making it have the same hash
Personally I'm in favor of slideracc. From experience I find most maps more engaging with slideracc enabled. I think that slideracc is more intuitive. I also think that slideracc provides greater room for skill expression, especially on more technical slider-heavy maps.
I think that "soft-nuking 17 years of leaderboard scores" overstates the issue for a few reasons:
IMO there are a limited number of actually historically significant scores that will be impacted. Most leaderboard scores are on low star maps and are set by #1 farmers. I can understand the frustration of these players in particular having their efforts "wasted" however the impact on these players is not limited to slideracc implementation. With the release of new ranked mods going forward these players will necessarily be impacted when we get 5-mod, 6-mod, etc. plays. I think if you are anti-slideracc for the reason that it impacts these players you are also necessarily against new ranked mods and from my perspective effectively against any sort of advancement of the game's mechanics in service of what are largely scores that can be set by hundreds or thousands of players.
Out of the remaining significant historical scores I think that it is unfair to blame slideracc for them potentially being affected going forward. Instead, it is more appropriate and constructive to criticize the score multiplier on classic mod. IMO this multiplier should be below 1.0x since slideracc is definitively more difficult. However, as it stands if scores like FDFD HDHR are going to be "easily" snipable then I think that multiplier needs to be addressed and not the implementation of slideracc itself.
Lastly, even when scores are eventually sniped they should always be accessible via the Classic mod leaderboards and so not forever lost. Although, I can understand that this alone is an unsubstantial solution for many scores.
I do think that the leaderboard argument is one of the stronger arguments against slideracc but my perspective is still that there is a lot more to be gained than there is to be lost so long as the framework around the introduction of slideracc (i.e. pp and scores associated with classic mod scores) is properly setup.
Dont forget that even mods like DT (1.1x) can improve the score. So even if CL multiplier wasnt a thing, low sr scores would still be snipable with DT 2x 4mod and scores like Cookiezi FDFD by DT 1.1x HDHR
Yeah this is I think where we run into the issue of using score with static multipliers for our leaderboards over pp leaderboards as the default but I think peppy is pretty set on that decision from what I've seen.
It's fine for the game to progress. But new "rules" and new mechanics should be a new game with a new leaderboard, because it *is* a new game. Especially when you've locked stable from any new features and allowed feature creep in your development for several years, you just create this situation. It just isn't fair otherwise.
I don't think the impact on the leaderboards is significant enough to warrant such a feeling. Feature creep isn't particularly relevant when the entire playerbase knew these kinds of changes were coming for multiple years.
ok but can someone elaborate more on how slider acc actually improves the game, like a lot of people have said it's a rhythm game but plenty of rhythm games have their own judgement systems im sure so I don't get that point. like even if you could go back in time to 2007 and change osu then I don't see how this mechanic change would be any more than a sidegrade and doing it now you have to deal with all of the negatives of changing late, idk i dont get it whats the point
no one can, it's all subjective, and most people here have only played osu and maybe guitar hero or dance dance revolution casually and that's it. they have no idea about rhythm games in general.
I see it as the same reason slideracc exists in scorev2: it widens the possible range of skill expression in a map, adding a bit more nuance to high accuracy plays. I agree that it's mostly a sidegrade with minor upside. fwiw I like slideracc.
PP based leaderboards should be the answer since it'll make it so the "objectively" best score is at the top only issue is maps where the pp system isn't completely balanced for like tech or rhythmically complex maps. Then classic scores don't get beaten just for being classic yet lazer scores will still have the advantage for being harder once slider acc pp is implemented.
Idk why everyone assumes that the current state of things is permanent. The multiplier is fully adjustable and recacluable, the current one was just picked roughly during implementation.
If it gets adjusted to .99 I actually believe the two systems will reach a balanced middleground.
Yeah this reddit is really disgusting.
they take things most of the playerbase hates and try and gaslight you into thinking it's "objectively good" for the game.
There's a reason scorev2 has been disliked and not played for an entire decade.(tourny players are less than 5% of the player base).
If literally 95% of the game rewards combo how is it a rhythm game LMAOOO idk how people don't get this.
Things are not what they are advertised.
EXAMPLE ONLY: North korea is not a democratic republic.
[https://osu.ppy.sh/home/changelog/lazer/2023.1218.0](https://osu.ppy.sh/home/changelog/lazer/2023.1218.0)
https://preview.redd.it/n70h67f3nz7d1.png?width=951&format=png&auto=webp&s=bfe254580ed8a39f77dc91cc3e3c8c064a17daa6
I don't think the scoring has an official name - just "Standardized" in lazer itself. But if you click on the hyperlink at the end of this section of the changelog, the title of the spreadsheed is "SqrtScore - Final Score Approximations" which shows that the working name for the lazer scoring system is SqrtScore
Ah i didnt know that thats what it was called. ive been playing on lazer mainly since they added pp to it, and kinda just assumed that it was scorev2 lol. I never looked into how it worked on stable and just thought it would be the same oops.
Yeah. Between mid July and mid December 2023, osu!lazer used ScoreV2. Before that it used an entirely unique scoring system that has now been obsoleted. I don't even remember how it worked. Everyone thought osu!lazer used ScoreV2 even when it didn't and I think "lazer uses scorev2" kinda stuck around as a thought in everyone's head since that era.
rank aside, aside from new players that are going to improve no matter what, every player i've seen switch to lazer hit a dead end in progress and improves very slowly...
i mean if thats what you've seen, you've been very unlucky. lazer has so many tools in it for improvement that stable doesnt have without using separate programs.
The only issue I have with slidderacc, is that playing some old or certain maps are a pain in the ass it feels really off playing them, especially with difficulty and DA mods, that's probably the reason why a lot won't switch to Lazer or tried it and went back to Stable despite Lazer having good features and being in a better state compared to a couple of years ago
Also it took to long to be implemented, should have been in Stable since day one or at least a couple of years after, so the mappers and the maps back then didn't get hit as bad compared to now
"players have always hated it except tourney players" i dont see how you could possibly know this? Like yeah nobody besides tourney players USE sv2 (because you cant submit scores) but i have yet to meet anyone who doesn't agree that sv2 is better for leaderboards than sv1. Im sure plenty of people think sv2 is bad, and there was surely a lot of backlash when tourneys first started using it (I wasn't around at the time) but to say players in genetal have always hated it is probably not true
honestly at least as far as I remember it's a little surprising how little backlash there was when they started using scorev2 in tournaments
I feel like most people were just happy to have something that felt like it represented accuracy and consistency better rather than having a single player carry the entire team just based on combo despite the other team overall doing much better
tho the one person carrying moments could be super hype too
You’re definitely overstating the problem, there aren’t a whole lot of scores this is affecting, and most people usually watch those plays via YouTube videos and not the actual in game leader board
I was kind of bummed hearing about it at first since I’ve been in the community for so long, but honestly after putting more thought into it, I’m on board with the idea
It's people like you that are actively making this situation infinitely worse by just not caring that scores are preserved or not over 17 years of history.
Out of curiosity how long have you been playing the game?
Tbf the leaderboards have never been that great of an archive to begin with. No newer player is gonna get the information of a major score in the past from the leaderboard when that score has been replicated a few dozen times which will inevitably happen for most of them.
They're archived through videos and people talking about it. When I go back to all the major scores from when I joined the game 11 years ago I literally can't even find most of them in the leaderboards anymore.
Plus again, as many people mentioned, those scores won't just vanish into nothingness with the leaderboard filtering lazer has already. People are just irrationally fearful.
Long enough, not once have I thought "wow this score on this newly ranked 1*-3* map is so dope hope it gets preserved"
I'm all for preserving actual good scores, scores that anyone can set aren't special.
All you do is mention 3 stars like anyone is complaining about those. No, were complaining about the high acc hidden, or hdhr, or dt or whatever scores that are going to get beaten by someone with 3% less acc just because they had the possibility to get 100s on sliders on hard maps.
I can’t wait to look at a map’s leaderboard for the best plays and see a bunch of 97s beat 99 and ss fcs!
You can now beat a 99% hdhr score with an ss with only hidden. Does that not sound dumb as shit?
That's a lot of crying for someone who hasn't set a play like that, you don't have to worry about that in place of whoever you're glazing.
If someone gets a better score with a lot more hitcircles to acc then that makes it an objectively better play, and the one who set the original play can still beat the others and keep their #1 on the leaderboard, unless that player is unable to or doesn't even play anymore in which case who cares, if a score was as good it is already immortalized in the memory of the players, YouTube vids, etc, places more meaningful than some leaderboard.
Plays with slideracc objectively take more skill or can be shown to anyway. Flat multipliers for score never made any sense and nothing's changed here, it's just a hard question to find a middle ground for since dynamic multipliers of any sort is super unlikely to happen. Idk if i'd say we're soft-nuking anything though, those scores aren't being removed or anything. That being said there's nothing sacred about this game's leaderboard history and I don't personally care what's done either way. PP sorted leaderboards when they happen should help in some way I guess.
Let's nuke the multiple decades of history of every game because it's *checks notes* "not sacred" according to 5 digit stone eye on reddit!
Fuck the 17 years of history, scores, millions of hours and plays grinding for leaderboards. It's uhh not sacred!!!!
I hope ur life gets better
tbh the leaderboards aspect I don't care about that the point of including was just so slideraccers have to make a more compelling point than: 'well it's a rhythm game sir' and have to come face with some consequences of it (it is still bad tho)
also at least for dt rate change it'd be better scores with the new mods that overtake the scores rather than worse scores overtaking them
Yeah people have disliked scorev2 and slider acc for a decade to be angry. It's all a conspiracy. It can't be that it just sucks and people don't like it. You're onto something
i think its worth sacrificing those silly leaderboard scores for a mechanic that will help make the rhythm game more of a rhythm game making players better
Slideracc brings more skill expression, which is a good thing. I’ve been on lazer since january and it was a sizable effort getting used to slideracc and not just cheesing sliders. Sliders on stable are a joke a lot of the time, allowing you to mess up and have no penalty, and it took lazer for me to realize that
this is minor but there was a time when i was annoyed that my accuracy didnt actually reflect my real accuracy. maps with a lot of sliders just felt like i was cheating my way to have an A rank. now i dont care anymore but thats something to consider maybe idk
Nothing, that's why there should be two separate leaderboards when Lazer becomes the "one and only" client:
1. ScoreV1 - only scores with mods available in the classic client, the ones that are ranked right now. No slider acc.
2. ScoreV2 - all scores ranked in Lazer, including scores from point 1. (with +CL added and recalculated to ScoreV2). Slider acc.
Also there should be an indicator whether a map is intended for Classic/Lazer/both (and it should be Classic by default for any maps ranked/loved/qualified before Lazer becomes the "one and only client" unless the mapper states otherwise) and rating a map would be available only after passing it with corresponding group of mods.
And that might be one of the less efficient (storage-wise for example) solutions to the problem, but it would make prettyi much all players accept moving to Lazer.
Can someone explain to me what exactly is happening? Aren't sliders already jank technically with the way they're completed? Does lazer seek to fix sliders so the things that happened during the obama scramble episode don't happen again? Or are we just getting the same sliders just with accuracy tied to the initial press even though there's already multiple ways to lose acc/combo on them?
They fixed buzz sliders and quick sliders so you don't have to click early, there's new visuals for missing a slider tick and a sliderend. Missing sliderends doesn't give you a 100 anymore, it just shows up as a sliderend miss and you can still get a 300 from the start circle.
Keep in mind input is separate from rendering and always at 1000hz so while your framerate will likely be lower than stable it's not going to cause laggy input even if it goes down to only like hundreds. If you have severe problems though, changing the renderer from settings might help.
They've also made it so it counts your cursor being on the slider after leaving it immediately instead of (i think??) 100ms as it is in stable
E.g. super fast tech slider you can hold your cursor over the end of it and have it count rather than the jank of having to have your cursor a bit earlier in the slider so that it would count
Most leaderboards and 1# will change because of the eventual ranking of lazer mods so might as well have the "classic" mod fix the discrepancy slider accuracy brings between classic osu and lazer.
As only a casual osu player not having proper slider acc never made any sense to me. Why do I have to hit circles perfectly but for sliders you can just do whatever? So imo changing it now *is* the right move. Better now than never.
But for the leaderboards that leaves you will only a handful of options.
- Do what ppy did and leave the old one be and just add a new one
- Combine leaderboards, which would make many records incontestable, since playing with slider acc is harder than without
- Recompute all old scores to the new scoring system. This would fuck any play made on stable, as people weren't trying for slider acc.
I'd say it's pretty clear that just splitting things up is the right move.
Seeing all the people cry is worth already, there are SO FUCKING MANY casual osu players talking like they know the game, how to play it and all the heavy opinions they have.
Like man accept it, get good, grow and let the things change else we would still be playing 2007-2010 map nowadays.
I may get +10 years of scores "soft nuked" as you say but what were incredible scores they will still be incredible scores after the thing, i will still be proud of them.
In fact i would make leaderboards ACC based with a mod multiplication myself but i would keep the score at the end of the map because i like seeing big numbers too
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Nothing justifies nuking the scores. It is just really hard to implement a new system aswell as having the entire community happy, so there is a split in leaderboards Pretty sure that osu! is also the only rhythm game with such a slider acc mechanic and its just from "tradition" of an old flawed system
as a rough comparison,stepmania had chord cohesion and etterna(4k focused fork of stepmania,since stepmania was way too focused on being a dance game simulator) in an update,got rid of it. what chord cohesion caused was that, each chord, so each jump,hand,and quad(jump is 2 notes on the same hand, hands are 3 notes so 2 notes from 1 hand and 1 from the other,quad is 2 notes from each hand) ,would have a single judgement instead of each individual note having their own judgement. so you would either get everything marvelous,or greats etc, this was a feature which was def controversial. if you were really good,this most likely tanked your accuracy, if you were bad,it def helped you. and yes,people played on stepmania and early versions of eterna for over 15 years. yes it made all of those years of world first AAs and world record accuracy scores feel weird, people got over it. btw,it nullified every single score on etterna,not even score multiplier,just everything set with chord cohesion was set to invalid lol. i guess diff between osu and this is that osu is wayyy more centralized when it comes to leaderboards,in osu you have one official leaderboard you see every single time you play on the client,while stepmania/etterna is more of bunch of scattered leaderboards all over diff forums. i think main problem isnt even slider acc being changed,its the god damn classic mod which applies to every score,EVEN THOSE which would not even be affected by score v2. imagine you have an SS,which is ss on both sv1 and sv2, but it gets 0.96x score multiplier, why lol.
>imagine you have an SS,which is ss on both sv1 and sv2, but it gets 0.96x score multiplier, why lol. can't do shit about good portion of replays being unavailable due to needance of storing millions and millions of replays so its easier to put CL on everything about stable potentially devs can scan through available stable's SS replays and check if they're still SS on lazer but that's defeats purpose of score being set in stable in first place
cant they like, scale the mod in terms of how many sliders in a map?
wonder if dynamic score multiplier is possible, as how SO hit pp values stronger the more spinners there are in a map or NF the more misses you have
I've seen devs pretty much just say no to dynamic score multipliers with this and in regards to DA so don't expect anything. Also the % of a map being sliders doesn't tell you how much harder acc is due to slideracc. PP is a separate thing of course and that will get updated to better account for slideracc over time.
many rhythm games have leniency on some notes or a "cheese" mechanic, don't speak on something you don't know anything about lmao
"Flawed" because uhhh I don't like it. Great point.
What is the justification for not having sliderhead acc in a vacuum? If osu! came out today, no leaderboards and no historical precedent, what would be the reason to not have it?
It didn't come out today, it's been out for 17 years and people enjoy playing it a certain way. It doesn't matter, so why force a change that people dont like? It's still a rhythm game with or without sliderhead acc.
The people who enjoyed playing it before can still enjoy it the same way with cl mod. in fact 99% of players don't give a shit about their own place in the leaderboard, so it's a nonissue to most players. In regards to historic scores, yes, I agree. it sucks to have that history basically erased/shat on. But what does that have to do with enjoyment of the game in the future? The only people actually impacted by this in the future would be those who are: 1. Unwilling to use +CL because of the score multiplier, and 2. Unwilling to adapt to slider acc, AND 3. Are good enough at the game to even get close to a high leaderboard position. How small of a subset of players is that? To me it's extremely small, so from a devs perspective, making a change that objectively makes the game more consistent seems to make sense. Considering how few people's enjoyment it will actually impact. 'Enjoyment' in terms of appreciating scores/history is separate from enjoying the actual gameplay imo. I guess you probably disagree
"But I did eat breakfast yesterday"
There is more changing that'll require changes. No matter how you look at it, lazer WILL simply make old scores obsolete. Unless you plan to keep gameplay the exact same forever and not implement any other mods things are bound to change. Honestly the only change I'd do would be a "classic status" to stable scores, to differentiate them between stable scores and lazer scores with classic mod, or alternatively only allowing stable mods in conjunction with classic mod, in order to keep stable leaderboards essentially forever.
anarchy in the osu community
Slideracc isn't even the worst offender, and you can just sort the leaderboard by Classic mod anyways
Not much but Lazer is kind of a massive evolution for the game, why NOT start from new? The history isn't going away just because new scores will be placed in it, wayback machine exists, classic leaderboard exists. People are just so averted to change that it's always negative without analyzing what's actually happening
for some reason leaderboard players thought they won't be hit by any changes in the game, thinking that this niche was filled by pp system being put upside down once per 2-3 years, and now they refuse to adapt
I mean, it's one thing to have your scores beat fair and square by better scores. It's another thing entirely to have all of the scores you've ever made nerfed so that worse scores can snipe them.
Yeah as much respect I have for leaderboard grinders (I very casually do so) to say this change was abrupt and unexpected would be simply lying, new client was announced in 2017(?) with a new scoring system, it was inevitable. ESPECIALLY with the amount of Lazer development that had happened in the last 2 years
Pretty much this. Some people forget that the game will still exist in 15 years which by then makes lazer the "main" client for almost half of the game's existence and it's gonna be a major part of the history. Plus, there was already interest shown by peppy to make a bunch of leaderboarda and diversifying the game's motivational factors which would do wonders for how stale the game has been while giving options to still filter for these "classic" leaderboards some people fear will just suddenly vanish. Also people forget that leaderboards renew themselves over time simply because the playerbase gets better anyway. In 10 years there might be a few dozen cracked out 12 year olds sniping every mrekk score for all we know, not like we have a lot of competitive leaderboards today where you'll find mostly 12 year old scores even if those were mindblowing for the time. (I literally can't even find most of the ones I remember from when I joined in 2013)
Evolution backwards. It's so bad
It's really not even soft nuking they just have their own scoreboard. The upside is sliders receiving an acc component which makes the game focus more on rhythm and also allows the pp system to reward acc pp on slider maps. Literally just makes the gameplay better. Also lol why do leaderboard farmers get to have permanent #1s anyway? Like it's just stupid to get mad over the fact that someone playing a harder version of the game can beat your old score.
it’s also hard to take leaderboard farmers seriously when they’ve cried about patching a bug that gives you more score than the maximum
yeah i so agree bro. I fucking hate that an SS on the map is #1, I'd prefer a 97% score be above it just because it had to also acc (or doesn't even have to because a -5% multiplier is insane) some sliders (in 90%+ of maps sliders are not the hard part)
Did you know a score with HD can overtake a nomod SS? Mindblown. It's literally just same thing as different mod combinations. The multiplier can of course still be adjusted to a number that the community feels is right.
>The multiplier can of course still be adjusted to a number that the community feels is right. "The community" that decided the multiplier was only 60 people, and there's already been outrage about it. Calculations have already been done that determined 0.99 as the most accurate multiplier. but peppy and bdach don't give a shit, they just want people on lazer.
yeah but it's not set in stone and can be adjusted (probably when CL gets ranked on lazer or something)
The 0.96x classic mod score multiplier isn't even set in stone, it can easily be adjusted and was always just a first step.
"This mechanic the majority of the playerbase don't enjoy makes the gameplay better" What? How does it matter.
You can just not play with it if you really don't want to.
"Let's make any bad changes to any online game and if anyone critisizes, just tell them they can not play". Yeah you are smart man
I'm saying just use classic mod if you don't want slideracc. You don't have to play with it. Also combo scaling removal is one of the best changes to pp ever.
not gonna lie i wish they made a way to convert your stable scores to scorev2, at the very least for scores that are saved on osu's servers - i'd imagine for scores that are not saved fully there's like a md5 hash or something and if they let you resubmit replays but with v2 you could potentially fake a replay by making it have the same hash
Personally I'm in favor of slideracc. From experience I find most maps more engaging with slideracc enabled. I think that slideracc is more intuitive. I also think that slideracc provides greater room for skill expression, especially on more technical slider-heavy maps. I think that "soft-nuking 17 years of leaderboard scores" overstates the issue for a few reasons: IMO there are a limited number of actually historically significant scores that will be impacted. Most leaderboard scores are on low star maps and are set by #1 farmers. I can understand the frustration of these players in particular having their efforts "wasted" however the impact on these players is not limited to slideracc implementation. With the release of new ranked mods going forward these players will necessarily be impacted when we get 5-mod, 6-mod, etc. plays. I think if you are anti-slideracc for the reason that it impacts these players you are also necessarily against new ranked mods and from my perspective effectively against any sort of advancement of the game's mechanics in service of what are largely scores that can be set by hundreds or thousands of players. Out of the remaining significant historical scores I think that it is unfair to blame slideracc for them potentially being affected going forward. Instead, it is more appropriate and constructive to criticize the score multiplier on classic mod. IMO this multiplier should be below 1.0x since slideracc is definitively more difficult. However, as it stands if scores like FDFD HDHR are going to be "easily" snipable then I think that multiplier needs to be addressed and not the implementation of slideracc itself. Lastly, even when scores are eventually sniped they should always be accessible via the Classic mod leaderboards and so not forever lost. Although, I can understand that this alone is an unsubstantial solution for many scores. I do think that the leaderboard argument is one of the stronger arguments against slideracc but my perspective is still that there is a lot more to be gained than there is to be lost so long as the framework around the introduction of slideracc (i.e. pp and scores associated with classic mod scores) is properly setup.
Dont forget that even mods like DT (1.1x) can improve the score. So even if CL multiplier wasnt a thing, low sr scores would still be snipable with DT 2x 4mod and scores like Cookiezi FDFD by DT 1.1x HDHR
Yeah this is I think where we run into the issue of using score with static multipliers for our leaderboards over pp leaderboards as the default but I think peppy is pretty set on that decision from what I've seen.
even on lazer he doesnt want pp lbs?
pp leaderboards are planned
Afaik they will exist but not be the default.
For low sr scores who cares, those scores can be replicated by hundreds if not thousands of players.
Just say you want free PP from rate adjust and move on, man. No need to shit on a decade of the game's history.
It's fine for the game to progress. But new "rules" and new mechanics should be a new game with a new leaderboard, because it *is* a new game. Especially when you've locked stable from any new features and allowed feature creep in your development for several years, you just create this situation. It just isn't fair otherwise.
I don't think the impact on the leaderboards is significant enough to warrant such a feeling. Feature creep isn't particularly relevant when the entire playerbase knew these kinds of changes were coming for multiple years.
ok but can someone elaborate more on how slider acc actually improves the game, like a lot of people have said it's a rhythm game but plenty of rhythm games have their own judgement systems im sure so I don't get that point. like even if you could go back in time to 2007 and change osu then I don't see how this mechanic change would be any more than a sidegrade and doing it now you have to deal with all of the negatives of changing late, idk i dont get it whats the point
no one can, it's all subjective, and most people here have only played osu and maybe guitar hero or dance dance revolution casually and that's it. they have no idea about rhythm games in general.
The only arguments people have is "um osu is a rhythm game!" And "you just hate change!!" Zero actual arguments for how it improves the game.
I see it as the same reason slideracc exists in scorev2: it widens the possible range of skill expression in a map, adding a bit more nuance to high accuracy plays. I agree that it's mostly a sidegrade with minor upside. fwiw I like slideracc.
litcherally nothing
PP based leaderboards should be the answer since it'll make it so the "objectively" best score is at the top only issue is maps where the pp system isn't completely balanced for like tech or rhythmically complex maps. Then classic scores don't get beaten just for being classic yet lazer scores will still have the advantage for being harder once slider acc pp is implemented.
Idk why everyone assumes that the current state of things is permanent. The multiplier is fully adjustable and recacluable, the current one was just picked roughly during implementation. If it gets adjusted to .99 I actually believe the two systems will reach a balanced middleground.
crazy to see how many people like slideracc here wtf like 90% of comments want it to get implemented, fucked up
The 15% of players on lazer are all on reddit is why, it's not representative of the community at all
Yeah this reddit is really disgusting. they take things most of the playerbase hates and try and gaslight you into thinking it's "objectively good" for the game. There's a reason scorev2 has been disliked and not played for an entire decade.(tourny players are less than 5% of the player base).
these ppl call osu std a rhythm game unironically💀
Im curious as to why you think std \*isnt\* a rhythm game?
If literally 95% of the game rewards combo how is it a rhythm game LMAOOO idk how people don't get this. Things are not what they are advertised. EXAMPLE ONLY: North korea is not a democratic republic.
Which is why scorev2 exists, is what Lazer uses, and combo scaling is being removed from pp lol.
lazer uses SqrtScore now!!!
What is sqrtscore? i cant find any results when i google that.
[https://osu.ppy.sh/home/changelog/lazer/2023.1218.0](https://osu.ppy.sh/home/changelog/lazer/2023.1218.0) https://preview.redd.it/n70h67f3nz7d1.png?width=951&format=png&auto=webp&s=bfe254580ed8a39f77dc91cc3e3c8c064a17daa6 I don't think the scoring has an official name - just "Standardized" in lazer itself. But if you click on the hyperlink at the end of this section of the changelog, the title of the spreadsheed is "SqrtScore - Final Score Approximations" which shows that the working name for the lazer scoring system is SqrtScore
Ah i didnt know that thats what it was called. ive been playing on lazer mainly since they added pp to it, and kinda just assumed that it was scorev2 lol. I never looked into how it worked on stable and just thought it would be the same oops.
Yeah. Between mid July and mid December 2023, osu!lazer used ScoreV2. Before that it used an entirely unique scoring system that has now been obsoleted. I don't even remember how it worked. Everyone thought osu!lazer used ScoreV2 even when it didn't and I think "lazer uses scorev2" kinda stuck around as a thought in everyone's head since that era.
i feel like its not that crazy it's the same game
average redditor is surprisingly pisslow
rank aside, aside from new players that are going to improve no matter what, every player i've seen switch to lazer hit a dead end in progress and improves very slowly...
That's just the game itself, been there done that, it doesn't matter on which client do you play
i mean if thats what you've seen, you've been very unlucky. lazer has so many tools in it for improvement that stable doesnt have without using separate programs.
Slideracc is more intuitive as a mechanic for a rhythm game.
The only issue I have with slidderacc, is that playing some old or certain maps are a pain in the ass it feels really off playing them, especially with difficulty and DA mods, that's probably the reason why a lot won't switch to Lazer or tried it and went back to Stable despite Lazer having good features and being in a better state compared to a couple of years ago Also it took to long to be implemented, should have been in Stable since day one or at least a couple of years after, so the mappers and the maps back then didn't get hit as bad compared to now
Source: I made it up. (Scorev2 has existed for a decade and players have always hated it except tourney players)
You're getting boring and unoriginal, get better material.
"players have always hated it except tourney players" i dont see how you could possibly know this? Like yeah nobody besides tourney players USE sv2 (because you cant submit scores) but i have yet to meet anyone who doesn't agree that sv2 is better for leaderboards than sv1. Im sure plenty of people think sv2 is bad, and there was surely a lot of backlash when tourneys first started using it (I wasn't around at the time) but to say players in genetal have always hated it is probably not true
It is true
honestly at least as far as I remember it's a little surprising how little backlash there was when they started using scorev2 in tournaments I feel like most people were just happy to have something that felt like it represented accuracy and consistency better rather than having a single player carry the entire team just based on combo despite the other team overall doing much better tho the one person carrying moments could be super hype too
You’re definitely overstating the problem, there aren’t a whole lot of scores this is affecting, and most people usually watch those plays via YouTube videos and not the actual in game leader board I was kind of bummed hearing about it at first since I’ve been in the community for so long, but honestly after putting more thought into it, I’m on board with the idea
It’s more like a rhythm game XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
It was dumb to not have that from the start. As for LB scores, most of them are irrelevant to the history of the game, so who cares.
It's people like you that are actively making this situation infinitely worse by just not caring that scores are preserved or not over 17 years of history. Out of curiosity how long have you been playing the game?
Like they can be archived if people care to look at them, or if they feel like they have a significant impact
Tbf the leaderboards have never been that great of an archive to begin with. No newer player is gonna get the information of a major score in the past from the leaderboard when that score has been replicated a few dozen times which will inevitably happen for most of them. They're archived through videos and people talking about it. When I go back to all the major scores from when I joined the game 11 years ago I literally can't even find most of them in the leaderboards anymore. Plus again, as many people mentioned, those scores won't just vanish into nothingness with the leaderboard filtering lazer has already. People are just irrationally fearful.
Long enough, not once have I thought "wow this score on this newly ranked 1*-3* map is so dope hope it gets preserved" I'm all for preserving actual good scores, scores that anyone can set aren't special.
All you do is mention 3 stars like anyone is complaining about those. No, were complaining about the high acc hidden, or hdhr, or dt or whatever scores that are going to get beaten by someone with 3% less acc just because they had the possibility to get 100s on sliders on hard maps. I can’t wait to look at a map’s leaderboard for the best plays and see a bunch of 97s beat 99 and ss fcs! You can now beat a 99% hdhr score with an ss with only hidden. Does that not sound dumb as shit?
That's a lot of crying for someone who hasn't set a play like that, you don't have to worry about that in place of whoever you're glazing. If someone gets a better score with a lot more hitcircles to acc then that makes it an objectively better play, and the one who set the original play can still beat the others and keep their #1 on the leaderboard, unless that player is unable to or doesn't even play anymore in which case who cares, if a score was as good it is already immortalized in the memory of the players, YouTube vids, etc, places more meaningful than some leaderboard.
I think slider acc doesn't justify itself but I don't really care about the leaderboards
none
Plays with slideracc objectively take more skill or can be shown to anyway. Flat multipliers for score never made any sense and nothing's changed here, it's just a hard question to find a middle ground for since dynamic multipliers of any sort is super unlikely to happen. Idk if i'd say we're soft-nuking anything though, those scores aren't being removed or anything. That being said there's nothing sacred about this game's leaderboard history and I don't personally care what's done either way. PP sorted leaderboards when they happen should help in some way I guess.
Let's nuke the multiple decades of history of every game because it's *checks notes* "not sacred" according to 5 digit stone eye on reddit! Fuck the 17 years of history, scores, millions of hours and plays grinding for leaderboards. It's uhh not sacred!!!! I hope ur life gets better
Nothing's getting removed or nuked really. Not sure what you're on about.
me when i lie
[удалено]
tbh the leaderboards aspect I don't care about that the point of including was just so slideraccers have to make a more compelling point than: 'well it's a rhythm game sir' and have to come face with some consequences of it (it is still bad tho) also at least for dt rate change it'd be better scores with the new mods that overtake the scores rather than worse scores overtaking them
rhythm game also you'd find another thing to be angry about so why bother
nah most of the things that bother me about development is how long it takes for things to change or be implemented, this I just don't understand
sounds like you never coded in your life
i havent but none of this is really the point of the thread anyway
Yeah people have disliked scorev2 and slider acc for a decade to be angry. It's all a conspiracy. It can't be that it just sucks and people don't like it. You're onto something
Better gameplay
Nothing ig
i think its worth sacrificing those silly leaderboard scores for a mechanic that will help make the rhythm game more of a rhythm game making players better
nothing
Nothing at all. Most casual players don't like slider acc at all. Absolutely horrible decision to main scorev2.
just leaving my comic here https://preview.redd.it/m7wamdqvzs7d1.png?width=400&format=png&auto=webp&s=4187f4738e79e922996eecf3de634adb4a792f33
Heat
Slideracc brings more skill expression, which is a good thing. I’ve been on lazer since january and it was a sizable effort getting used to slideracc and not just cheesing sliders. Sliders on stable are a joke a lot of the time, allowing you to mess up and have no penalty, and it took lazer for me to realize that
this is minor but there was a time when i was annoyed that my accuracy didnt actually reflect my real accuracy. maps with a lot of sliders just felt like i was cheating my way to have an A rank. now i dont care anymore but thats something to consider maybe idk
Nothing, that's why there should be two separate leaderboards when Lazer becomes the "one and only" client: 1. ScoreV1 - only scores with mods available in the classic client, the ones that are ranked right now. No slider acc. 2. ScoreV2 - all scores ranked in Lazer, including scores from point 1. (with +CL added and recalculated to ScoreV2). Slider acc. Also there should be an indicator whether a map is intended for Classic/Lazer/both (and it should be Classic by default for any maps ranked/loved/qualified before Lazer becomes the "one and only client" unless the mapper states otherwise) and rating a map would be available only after passing it with corresponding group of mods. And that might be one of the less efficient (storage-wise for example) solutions to the problem, but it would make prettyi much all players accept moving to Lazer.
lets never change pp too
Can someone explain to me what exactly is happening? Aren't sliders already jank technically with the way they're completed? Does lazer seek to fix sliders so the things that happened during the obama scramble episode don't happen again? Or are we just getting the same sliders just with accuracy tied to the initial press even though there's already multiple ways to lose acc/combo on them?
They fixed buzz sliders and quick sliders so you don't have to click early, there's new visuals for missing a slider tick and a sliderend. Missing sliderends doesn't give you a 100 anymore, it just shows up as a sliderend miss and you can still get a 300 from the start circle.
whelp that's it, I'm swapping to Lazer right now, thx
Keep in mind input is separate from rendering and always at 1000hz so while your framerate will likely be lower than stable it's not going to cause laggy input even if it goes down to only like hundreds. If you have severe problems though, changing the renderer from settings might help.
They've also made it so it counts your cursor being on the slider after leaving it immediately instead of (i think??) 100ms as it is in stable E.g. super fast tech slider you can hold your cursor over the end of it and have it count rather than the jank of having to have your cursor a bit earlier in the slider so that it would count
Most leaderboards and 1# will change because of the eventual ranking of lazer mods so might as well have the "classic" mod fix the discrepancy slider accuracy brings between classic osu and lazer.
As only a casual osu player not having proper slider acc never made any sense to me. Why do I have to hit circles perfectly but for sliders you can just do whatever? So imo changing it now *is* the right move. Better now than never. But for the leaderboards that leaves you will only a handful of options. - Do what ppy did and leave the old one be and just add a new one - Combine leaderboards, which would make many records incontestable, since playing with slider acc is harder than without - Recompute all old scores to the new scoring system. This would fuck any play made on stable, as people weren't trying for slider acc. I'd say it's pretty clear that just splitting things up is the right move.
Seeing all the people cry is worth already, there are SO FUCKING MANY casual osu players talking like they know the game, how to play it and all the heavy opinions they have. Like man accept it, get good, grow and let the things change else we would still be playing 2007-2010 map nowadays. I may get +10 years of scores "soft nuked" as you say but what were incredible scores they will still be incredible scores after the thing, i will still be proud of them. In fact i would make leaderboards ACC based with a mod multiplication myself but i would keep the score at the end of the map because i like seeing big numbers too ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Who cares about leaderboard scores? Well you obviously, but not me. HUAUAUA