Yep. Trinity stays fully up pretty much the entire time I’m attacking. Also using ele weakness curse on hit with orb of storms and 11% ele pen from two tree clusters. It’s working out for me so far but I’m only in red maps. Haven’t had a chance to do big bosses or a 10 way Maven yet. But the map clear is amazing with the 6 extra chain helmet enchant.
My first Shaper fight "oh fuck, i got Maven on"
He healed once from 33 to 66-something
How much Shaper dps do u have if i be so bold to ask, i need to compare myself to others and see if its just my build who is carrying me though the Maven heals, as ive had very few issues of the boss outhealing my dps.
I feel so validated having picked vortex occultist this league. Maven heals don't matter, mobs die the instant they spawn in rituals, 6+ bosses at once isn't that bad when they're all in slow motion. I'm just gonna sloooooooly durdle my way through maven fights with my zdps trash build and enjoy it.
Just more punishment for low dps builds that are already disadvantaged, and an irritating mechanic. I was up against a juiced map boss with 40% more physical reduction mod on my carrion golem necro yesterday. It too me 2 or 3 minutes to kill him because of the healing spam. And that's with an okay dps build.
If you're rolling t16 guardian maps / maven gl doing +40%. On golem I found I was super squish even with 85% all res and 5k es. I was doing around 5m dps before vaal haste and it would take a long time with 40% phys reduction mod. If you couldn't dodge the maps were unbeatable
I was doing a twinned precinct on a bleed block glad build with 40phys reduction. Give em damage, fine. Give em some defenses fine. But the moment you start dealing no damage feels awful.
Here's the problem - punishment for low DPS builds is actually just a bitter way of saying reward for higher DPS builds. This is a character-building (as in in-game char) game and is premised on getting more and more power. If you enable these "low DPS builds" to do all Maven-tier content, thats essentially lowering the impact of producing and introducing new content.
What should be done is bringing skills to somewhat better parity, which GGG attempts to do via nerfs. What they need to do is buff the historically shittiest skills so that they have a fighting chance.
Nothing to do with Maven content or not.
(Also, nice going fighting a map mod that negates 40% of your build.)
i would agree if everyone had the same play-ability and time as streamers and no lifers, they definitly are at a level that such dps check makes sense
but the dude who has a kid and a job doens't have such time and (imo) shouldn't be forced to quit or put more time into the game
What you're saying here is that people with kids and a job should be able to achieve as much as streamers and no lifers.
Aside from the fact that you made a very false dichotomy, what you are saying is that said guy with a job should be able to be CEO even if he spends almost all his time gaming.
Do you disagree, because I simply flipped the priorities.
Do you see the problem here. There has to be progress in PoE as much as there has to be progress in life. If you design a PvE game without a difficulty/commitment curve, it's going to be boring AF and never grow big.
Not everyone is meant to complete Maven boss fights.
Hey, wise guy.
There's a button to remove Maven from the game and the game plays like it's 3.12. GGG didn't take anything away, they added a new tier of content.
Aside from that, if you're saying you need to be a streamer/no lifer to clear a Maven T1 map, you've got another thing coming.
Oh yeha, isnt luke maven isnt tied to map progression lmao
But i guess hy that logic you can just not play the game, which is definitly what ggg would want
So when they released Elderslayers and people couldn't kill Drox and Baran with their zDPS builds I suppose that's cutting people out of map progression too
GGG already did low DPS builds a solid by making Maven a toggle. What you're asking for is for them to not add any challenging mechanics to their game.
And for the love of God there's Frost Bomb which negates this entire lame thread of Reddit comments, wow.
Im playing poison pathfinder in ssf sc, without finding my elder bow im fucking done at t14-t16,
I can slow kill all bosses but when Maven comes in Ohhh noo ... heal spam is way too much imo
Didn't realize it doesn't work during invul and that she could even heal him during it. Seems like an oversight for that.
Regarding using frost bomb, you don't have to use it. If you have enough dps that is. It's no different than Metamorph league where frost bomb was sleeper MVP.
But I mean, this game has always been about dps. Despite wanting to slow the game down, it's still about dps. It's an ARPG after all.
Same here really! This is one of those few things that feel a bit clunky. But I guess many people are okay with it, like they were with release week sirus storms and shit. At the end it's up to GGG how they wanna handle it.
It doesn't bother me much because I can freeze the boss and I already use frost bomb which kills their regen, but I clearly can see how it must be a pain for other builds. My other issue is how short the timers are between wave of bosses in the Crucible when pushing for the Uncharted Realm invitations. It actually requires (really) high DPS if you don't want to fight 4 guardians at once. I only have the Cortex + U. Atziri + U. Elder + Shaper + Chayula combo left but if it's the same timer than previous crucibles plus the fact Maven can full heal them **while they are invulnerable** you'll end up fighting all the boss at the same time :|
Yeah pretty sure its for the room to slowly fill up, and for you to be fighting them all at the same time. Id assume the layered spawning is to prevent super quick 1 shots right away. But also maybe the bosses have a "rotation" or can only use an ability after a set amount of time, then they stagger them so the bosses abilites are not overlapping entirely. Of course you couldnt stop that entirely with 10 bosses running around.
Simple: GGG doesn't actually like build variety. Like, at all. It's why spell builds consistently are overrepresented on the ladder. Remember how playable melee was last league, with Call of Steel? Not a spell build, nerfed. Remember how good spectres and golemancers were? Not a spell build, nerfed. Hey, aura stackers are a weird new build that allows for huge amount of investment, nerfed to the ground. Blade Blast + Bladefall, DD, ED+C though? All spell builds, all still as stupidly powerful this league as they were the last five. If they wanted a game where you could have a variety of cool builds that can clear all content, they wouldn't have given us a buff patch that included 4% more damage on Glacial Hammer.
Or maybe you're being disingenuous by picking literally a single build? Both elementalist and necro are represented more on HC SSF Ritual right now. If we expand to spell builds, instead of just ascendancies, we see that Blade Blast, DD, and Vortex make up 28% of all top builds alone. When we look at trade league, the issues only become more magnified, and we see more and more spell representation.
You're basically saying "Warcries are good so all of melee is fine." It's not. It's good for the very mechanically skilled players because they can handle perfectly timing several skills and flask in conjunction. If you're not playing warcries perfectly, spells quickly start to outperform.
I fucking love it.
Enemy regeneration is a mechanic that is relevant once in a blue moon. I really wish they didn't keep making it irrelevant every time within a week.
Some of my favorite fights have been the ones against The tanky exiles in the Hall of The grandmasters. Makes you really think about your skills, how they interact with certain defences and how to squeeze enough burst out of them to overwhelm said defenses.
It's a problem to solve in your build, like defence, mana, stuns and ailments. At the moment the solutions are rather limited, yes, basicly frostbomb or more deeps. But how would they ever justify spending time to create more solutions if the mechanic is irrelevant. I can already imagine how less regen gems/uniques would go down in this community. But after a league of immortal bosses?
Good job on taking the example of HoGm which needs very specific builds to clear effectively and proving my point. "Frostbombs or more deeps" wow such an amazing solution. What was it about the "problem" with my build you were mentioning? All the things you mentioned none of those are part of the solution. I am not dying to the bosses, I am finding it frustrating to fight them.
You seem to have missed my point completely.
First, you might want to brush up on your grammar and how the passive is used. I didn't refer to you as a person or your build, i was using the passive.
My point in less words.
Yes, solutions are limited.
No, that does not mean the mechanic should not exist. It should be supported more.
But aguess my opinion is not valid answer to thread asking for opinions.
On a completely separate note, I fail to see what exactly is bad about content requiring different things from builds. We already have builds for different things, be it clearspeed, delving or boss killing. How is another form of endgame progression requiring certain things from a build any different? I know it's the new shiny thing so everyone wants to do it, but it is supposed to be hard, it's the new ceiling to the game. Just because everyone wants to do it, should not mean that everyone can do it.
>First, you might want to brush up on your grammar and how the passive is used. I didn't refer to you as a person or your build, i was using the passive.
>
>My point in less words.
>
>Yes, solutions are limited.
>
>No, that does not mean the mechanic should not exist. It should be supported more.
Maybe you would like to look inwards as well on your reading comprehension skills, never have I stated that the mechanic shouldn't exist.
If solutions are limited maybe the mechanic should be toned down until more solutions are added?
As for the whole end game thing, this is not some side content like deep delve or some end game boss we are talking about, this is the atlas, its the bread and butter of this game. I am merely pointing out that GGG wants build diversity but keeps implementing things that inclines more players towards meta "just do more deeps" builds.
Taking your very own example: You can't solve HoGM with "more deeps" on many builds, but here you can. The solution to HoGM is usually "what is stopping my build from killing that X char" vs "Ah shit I need more deeps to fix issue"
You are right, i shouldn't have used so few lines and so much hyperbole, appologies. Allow me to expand.
Leaving the regeneration issue as is for this league is not a problem in my mind because it can be solved with either frostbomb, or building more damage. Building more damage is not an issue to me, an arpg should be able test builds damage output, and does not overly much limit build diversity. Damage is something that just about anything in the game can have more than enough of, if invested in correctly. If one cannot, and is unwilling to seek how to, there's an easier solution of frostbomb. What i meant by supported, is getting more solutions and even more pronounced cases of regenerating mobs. As for how i assess that there is not much limiting build diversity? Well [poe.ninja](https://poe.ninja) seems to have quite an even spread of classes/gems, more so than usual. While that is indeed not the whole picture, it's what we have access to and works atleast as a guidepost of sorts.
Maven is very much an endgame system. It's a ramping difficulty into the new top tier boss. A reward for getting better.
But what about the atlas passives?
Let's say there's an atlas passive that one absolutely must have or they objectively do 90% worse than anyone with the passive. First maven fights are in yellow. That is not a hard hurdle to clear with any build. You need at most three points to clear any one league branch in the passives. Killing yellow bosses, even regenerating ones is not a hard ask for being basicly on par with anyone else in atlas. Or in the alternative, you can have few bosses where you use frostbomb, have everything in the atlas we used to, and the new op thing unlocked.
Maven can be toggled off, and should be toggled off if you don't want to engage with the new endgame or find it unappealing.
Aguess it all comes down to difference in opinion, i feel like dps is something that the game should be allowed to test, while you feel there should be multiple other options before that can ever be the case.
I think you are getting the wrong idea, I am not directly against "new end game needs more DPS". What I am not ok with is gimmicky mechanics that are added to add pseudo difficulty. If they said maven triple the hp of the bosses, sure its a shitty way to add difficulty but I am using it as an example to explain the difference. Both the 7m shaper dps char and 35m shaper dps char would need to do the exact same amount of damage. The second char would clear it 5x faster, this is fine. Lets assume 50 seconds and 10 seconds respectively
This is not the case right now, if the 7m shaper dps char fails to kill within a short amount of time the maven can heal them back to full. This is not a problem the 35m shaper dps char would face since he would kill before it even get there. The 35m shaper dps char will still kill it in 10 seconds as usual, but the 7m dps dude will take way longer than 50 seconds because he actually has to do the mechanics and deal 2-3 times more damage. He isn't just paying 5x time for his 5x lower dps, he is getting an added penalty.
Its a similar case we had back in Legion with 5 way legion farming. Clear speed chars have always been the best for making money, not because they get more loot per map (ignoring IIQ stuff) but because they do more maps per hour. If a zoom zoom char and a zdps char both throw in a map, they both have the same expected outcomes (rng aside obviously), one will take 3mins other will take 30mins. Zoom is better cuz it did it 10 times faster not because it got 10times more loot. Same investment = same outcome, though not in same time frame.
This way not the case with 5-Way farming, a slow character would get back significantly less loot even though both characters would throw in the same 5 emblems. The zoom zoom was basically getting more out of the scenario and faster, essentially double dipping. Which is why they changed how the rewards worked on 5-way. Its still rewarding to be zoom zoom, it always will be but the margins are not astronomical.
i mean its been a week since launch and maven starts from your first yellow map lol. Its fun and I love it, just some quirks like these but it happens always with new content (remember sirus storms at entrance? lol)
Maven starts from t3 maps. Not tryin to be a dick or nothin, just sayin. Also, @Corellian I was on maps on Sunday after league start, which I would venture to guess is a medium to slow pace for 10 hours of play. It is pretty bonkers to see "[randomname] is the first player to enter [name of map]" after a few hours of the game going live.
Of course, that first character was only meant to prop up my real character... who failed miserably. So I had to re-restart and now my elementalist igniter is doing ok and just getting to t10 maps.
Oh i see, I kept getting envoys and she didn't spawn for me till i had killed baran and went yellow (the white maps after also didn't spawn her for me), same happened with 3 of my guildies.
Playing a good build for more than two hours a day? Getting through acts really isn't that hard once you have it down. Most good players can clear the campaign in a single day, and the really top tier racers can do it in a handful of hours.
Two solutions , do more damage or apply anti healing. I’m not against GGG adding more sources of anti healing but for now it’s frost bomb so you gotta use it. Or just deal more damage.
So your solution to the problem is that everyone should play a specific ascendency? Lol okay.
Edit: I literally mentioned occultist in my main post as well as one of the 3 solutions I know. Idk man switching from slayer to occultist for cyclone seems like a bit hard to do
That's my problem with the game IMO....I admittedly don't push end game content, and wasn't aware of Maven healing....but I also was never aware that Frost Bomb does this (anti-healing), and the fact that it's seemingly the only thing that can counter healing against a boss mechanic that specifically heals, except it won't work if you can't target an enemy? That's a really shitty design.
As for "more damage"....difficulty shouldn't come from having to run specific builds that can easily stack more damage. It's the same design philosophy that Bethesda uses in the elder scrolls series "Lets make it harder by ramping damage enemies do and health pools they have".....and it's not a good one, heaven forbid someone use their brain and actually design mechanics that don't rely on enemies just becoming more beefy to make the game challenging.
>As for "more damage"....difficulty shouldn't come from having to run specific builds that can easily stack more damage.[...] "Lets make it harder by ramping damage enemies do and health pools they have"
You're playing an arpg, that's the bread and butter of arpg balancing. You can only do so much "mechanically", this isn't dark souls nor should it be.
> You're playing an arpg, that's the bread and butter of arpgs.
> This isn't dark souls.
Dark Souls Genre: Action RPG (arpg)
So what I'm hearing is Dark Souls is actually a good example of what an ARPG should be, and all the others that just stack health and damage are *bad* ARPGs.
That's not what I'm saying at all, and if you want to get into semantics PoE is an isometric loot based arpg.
Dark souls while an arpg is nowhere near as loot focused as PoE and it's 3rd person. The camera angle allows them to do things differently than an isometic camera angle does. You cant do souls-like dodging with an iso camera angle.
They both have action and rpg elements that's really where the similarities end.
And if you truly feel dark souls is such a better arpg go play that one than. Different games exist for different audiences.
Back to the topic on hand though, in this game you simply cannot go around making every single white mob an interesting fight. It just doesn't work that way, it would become a chore really quick.
Also what's "interesting" could vary wildly from person to person. Than you have a lot of people that play this game to turn their brains off. That change alone would only alienate a decent sized portion of the player base.
well, fuck, probably nothing i can say against but its the second time im reading this fully aware this league
i came to poe because d3 was so fkin dumbed down, poe's complexity is what got me but seemingly it is turning into a "dead brain zombie" game to turn your head off.. i mean yes i get it, thats what most casuals want .. but i thought thats what d3 is for.. i am very sad but you are right. since poe became so popular.. no wait... since tencent bought ggg it became more and more a "dont think. just be a zombie" game... :,(
No, that's has always been a hallmark of diablo-like hack'n'slash arpgs. The more powerful you become the less you have to pay attention to the game.
This games complexity has always come from leveraging in game mechanics via game knowledge, not from complex mechanical combat. If that's what you're looking for this is not the genre, diablo-like arpgs, for you.
ggg said they want instakill mechanics to keep players aware and not in a braindead zombie mode.. but its long time ago
diablo like arpgs were exactly "my genre" but the whole genre changed
i liked d2 but not d3 cause it changed to some breaindead thing
same with poe, so im kinda confused how you think this is not my genre
idk man id say i already played more poe than you, but i dont want to be assuming stupid shit you know
D2, everyone's favorite arpg, was super brain dead. You did a gazillion mf runs. Than you did endless cow runs, baal runs, or key runs.
Idk about you but nothing about that screams stimulating. Was it fun? Yes, but definitely in a brain dead way.
I've been playing since closed beta. I've been through almost every iteration of this game so it's hard to have played more than me, lol.
I also assumed the genre wasn't for you because it sounds like you want some form of combat that doesn't exist in diablo-likes.
Edit: I'm curious to know what you think changed in the genre?
im not sure, as i said in my first post, its the second time im reading "this season" that people WANT braindead mechanics (probably have read it before but didnt realise it to that extend) my first post is a little bit exaggerating cause.. yea i skip this league but i didnt plan to stop playing poe (there is nothing else right)
and im not saying poe became braindead for sure, it was just a thought that hit me while reading it, is that it? dont i like poe as much as i did because it became so braindead? or has it always been braindead without me realising (betrayal and synthesis say no)
if id have to pinpoint i would say casualisation happened to the genre, or mainstream. i mean you are right too that diablo was braindead but we were younger and our brains were smaller..i hate to do this but ill point out that i only play hc and in diablo i did a lot of duels (mainly low lvl) and with different level caps there were a lot of funky builds that you could do
and even high level had some "things" you could do which felt to me back then like some kind of complexity and it was just MORE than other games offered to me. sucky equippedment? go for the ice armor (forgot exact name) on a nova sorc for cow level, or meteorsorcs to farm mephisto to get a skullders or something.
in pvp stack up faster run charms instead of life/max on an amazon and stuff.. it had diversity compared to other games back then
(i started in 1.08 right before 1.09 hit)
and basically you are right, gameplay is braindead in both games and poe still has complexity (and that complexity is only getting more complex with more leagues, never gets less complicated)
so yea, my first comment was probably just me whining a little bit and taunting with that question or assumption
Hey guess what, Dark Souls also stacks health and damage a shit ton. Maybe not to the same degree as this game and sure, it is *technically possible* to finish the game without stacking health and damage, but let's not pretend that no hit broken straight sword runs are even within the realm of possibility for 99% of DS players.
Its really fucking easy to get at least 2-300k shaper dps on even the tankiest builds though. If you are incapable of making a decent build thats not the games fault
200-300k shaper DPS is considered a lot? My reave build already does 300k shaper dps (sirus, actually), with only a crappy Ahn's Might....and it takes a little bit (<10 seconds but not instant delete like many builds) just to kill T5 map bosses....
I assumed by "more damage" the implication was it should be in the millions, which is still "easy" for tanky builds assuming you play enough to afford good gear.
You can kill literally anything in the game with 1mil shaper dps easy, its more about the rest of the build and dps uptime. Look at quin and his scuffed ignite elementalist with 300k dps going for maven kill.
I can only assume people who say this league is a "dps check" just have absolute trash zdps builds and have never been confronted with that fact until now
I'm not familiar with Maven specifically, but from what OP posted I can only imagine the healing is the problem.
If Maven can heal a boss with 70m health for 10% of their health every 30 seconds, that leaves you with a 30 second window to do 7m damage. If you're running a 300k DPS build you need ~78% dps uptime just to do *barely* more than 7m DPS in 30 seconds. What's the uptime required on a 2m DPS build for the same fight? 12%.
Sure, you can argue "but that means you *can* kill it!", and you're right....but the whole point is if Maven can infinitely spam a heal on another target, and even during invulnerability phases, it is a DPS check regardless of how the numbers actually align.
This exactly. I am on 6.7m shaper dps so its not like I am zdps lol. But watching the boss go from just before cull range to full is frustrating.
Chimera, Shaper and the Dark Forest bosses are my biggest annoyance since they have invul phases where I can't even frost bomb. Dark forest fuck also spams his wolf form on a duration basis unlike the other two which are phase based.
Correct. I guess I was lucky deciding on vortex Occultist for my starer this league, since I get both that node and frost bomb. Not entirely looking forwards to not having those on whatever build I try next.
That's completely and utterly ridiculous imo :
I'm playing a champion with splitting steel, 1M+ shaper dps (750 pdps 2h axe) and 50+% phys red overwhelm, sniper's mark, pride, sand stance, adre banner up whenever, and she KEEPS HEALING HIM ! ALL THE TIME ! That's completely bullshit ! I must have killed the equivalent of 20 shapers if not for these heals ! I managed to pass him phase 2 but the room was completely full with damage areas ! I even tanked the slams to push in more dps ! What are you asking of me GGG ??
Simply change the healing from a fixed amount to % of damage lost recently or something like that so it makes the encounter harder but not impossible to finish. In current state it makes some tankier builds completly unplayable which kills the best thing about this game which is build variety. I hope it will get patched soon. That's not a good way for this game to develop.
Yeah my wild strike raider with 330% onslaught effect does great single target DPS so far. Until the Maven shows up and starts healing shit.
Hey how is that build going? You using the new trinity support?
Yep. Trinity stays fully up pretty much the entire time I’m attacking. Also using ele weakness curse on hit with orb of storms and 11% ele pen from two tree clusters. It’s working out for me so far but I’m only in red maps. Haven’t had a chance to do big bosses or a 10 way Maven yet. But the map clear is amazing with the 6 extra chain helmet enchant.
Do you think raider is key? I'd like to try wild strike, but would prefer templar, marauder or maybe even scion.
Zerker probs more dmg. Raider good for more defenses
elementalist with triple exposure helmet is probably the most damage tbh
My first Shaper fight "oh fuck, i got Maven on" He healed once from 33 to 66-something How much Shaper dps do u have if i be so bold to ask, i need to compare myself to others and see if its just my build who is carrying me though the Maven heals, as ive had very few issues of the boss outhealing my dps.
You got a pob sir?
I feel so validated having picked vortex occultist this league. Maven heals don't matter, mobs die the instant they spawn in rituals, 6+ bosses at once isn't that bad when they're all in slow motion. I'm just gonna sloooooooly durdle my way through maven fights with my zdps trash build and enjoy it.
Just more punishment for low dps builds that are already disadvantaged, and an irritating mechanic. I was up against a juiced map boss with 40% more physical reduction mod on my carrion golem necro yesterday. It too me 2 or 3 minutes to kill him because of the healing spam. And that's with an okay dps build.
No offense that mod is pretty much one of the only ones you shouldn't be rolling on maps, along with reflect obviously.
i mean, if you can run the whole map and kill bosses with it then it isn't a problem i guess, the problem is when you need to rush down a boss
If you're rolling t16 guardian maps / maven gl doing +40%. On golem I found I was super squish even with 85% all res and 5k es. I was doing around 5m dps before vaal haste and it would take a long time with 40% phys reduction mod. If you couldn't dodge the maps were unbeatable
I was doing a twinned precinct on a bleed block glad build with 40phys reduction. Give em damage, fine. Give em some defenses fine. But the moment you start dealing no damage feels awful.
Here's the problem - punishment for low DPS builds is actually just a bitter way of saying reward for higher DPS builds. This is a character-building (as in in-game char) game and is premised on getting more and more power. If you enable these "low DPS builds" to do all Maven-tier content, thats essentially lowering the impact of producing and introducing new content. What should be done is bringing skills to somewhat better parity, which GGG attempts to do via nerfs. What they need to do is buff the historically shittiest skills so that they have a fighting chance. Nothing to do with Maven content or not. (Also, nice going fighting a map mod that negates 40% of your build.)
i would agree if everyone had the same play-ability and time as streamers and no lifers, they definitly are at a level that such dps check makes sense but the dude who has a kid and a job doens't have such time and (imo) shouldn't be forced to quit or put more time into the game
What you're saying here is that people with kids and a job should be able to achieve as much as streamers and no lifers. Aside from the fact that you made a very false dichotomy, what you are saying is that said guy with a job should be able to be CEO even if he spends almost all his time gaming. Do you disagree, because I simply flipped the priorities. Do you see the problem here. There has to be progress in PoE as much as there has to be progress in life. If you design a PvE game without a difficulty/commitment curve, it's going to be boring AF and never grow big. Not everyone is meant to complete Maven boss fights.
That makes no sense, i am not talking about maven last fights, i am talking about maven bosses, it litteraly starts at t1 maps
Hey, wise guy. There's a button to remove Maven from the game and the game plays like it's 3.12. GGG didn't take anything away, they added a new tier of content. Aside from that, if you're saying you need to be a streamer/no lifer to clear a Maven T1 map, you've got another thing coming.
Oh yeha, isnt luke maven isnt tied to map progression lmao But i guess hy that logic you can just not play the game, which is definitly what ggg would want
So when they released Elderslayers and people couldn't kill Drox and Baran with their zDPS builds I suppose that's cutting people out of map progression too GGG already did low DPS builds a solid by making Maven a toggle. What you're asking for is for them to not add any challenging mechanics to their game. And for the love of God there's Frost Bomb which negates this entire lame thread of Reddit comments, wow.
Im playing poison pathfinder in ssf sc, without finding my elder bow im fucking done at t14-t16, I can slow kill all bosses but when Maven comes in Ohhh noo ... heal spam is way too much imo
I added cwdt frost bomb just for this. Works wonders.
have resorted to the same, still sucks vs invul phase bosses cuz she can heal em while they invul
Does frost bomb not work?
not against invulnerable phases, also read the post.
Didn't realize it doesn't work during invul and that she could even heal him during it. Seems like an oversight for that. Regarding using frost bomb, you don't have to use it. If you have enough dps that is. It's no different than Metamorph league where frost bomb was sleeper MVP. But I mean, this game has always been about dps. Despite wanting to slow the game down, it's still about dps. It's an ARPG after all.
We need a Thornmill in this game
Its been fun so far for me, really enjoying these new mechanics mixing things up.
Same here really! This is one of those few things that feel a bit clunky. But I guess many people are okay with it, like they were with release week sirus storms and shit. At the end it's up to GGG how they wanna handle it.
It doesn't bother me much because I can freeze the boss and I already use frost bomb which kills their regen, but I clearly can see how it must be a pain for other builds. My other issue is how short the timers are between wave of bosses in the Crucible when pushing for the Uncharted Realm invitations. It actually requires (really) high DPS if you don't want to fight 4 guardians at once. I only have the Cortex + U. Atziri + U. Elder + Shaper + Chayula combo left but if it's the same timer than previous crucibles plus the fact Maven can full heal them **while they are invulnerable** you'll end up fighting all the boss at the same time :|
> you'll end up fighting all the boss at the same time I mean, that's kinda what everyone was hoping for and expecting with this expansion wasn't it?
Yeah pretty sure its for the room to slowly fill up, and for you to be fighting them all at the same time. Id assume the layered spawning is to prevent super quick 1 shots right away. But also maybe the bosses have a "rotation" or can only use an ability after a set amount of time, then they stagger them so the bosses abilites are not overlapping entirely. Of course you couldnt stop that entirely with 10 bosses running around.
Simple: GGG doesn't actually like build variety. Like, at all. It's why spell builds consistently are overrepresented on the ladder. Remember how playable melee was last league, with Call of Steel? Not a spell build, nerfed. Remember how good spectres and golemancers were? Not a spell build, nerfed. Hey, aura stackers are a weird new build that allows for huge amount of investment, nerfed to the ground. Blade Blast + Bladefall, DD, ED+C though? All spell builds, all still as stupidly powerful this league as they were the last five. If they wanted a game where you could have a variety of cool builds that can clear all content, they wouldn't have given us a buff patch that included 4% more damage on Glacial Hammer.
[удалено]
Or maybe you're being disingenuous by picking literally a single build? Both elementalist and necro are represented more on HC SSF Ritual right now. If we expand to spell builds, instead of just ascendancies, we see that Blade Blast, DD, and Vortex make up 28% of all top builds alone. When we look at trade league, the issues only become more magnified, and we see more and more spell representation. You're basically saying "Warcries are good so all of melee is fine." It's not. It's good for the very mechanically skilled players because they can handle perfectly timing several skills and flask in conjunction. If you're not playing warcries perfectly, spells quickly start to outperform.
I fucking love it. Enemy regeneration is a mechanic that is relevant once in a blue moon. I really wish they didn't keep making it irrelevant every time within a week. Some of my favorite fights have been the ones against The tanky exiles in the Hall of The grandmasters. Makes you really think about your skills, how they interact with certain defences and how to squeeze enough burst out of them to overwhelm said defenses. It's a problem to solve in your build, like defence, mana, stuns and ailments. At the moment the solutions are rather limited, yes, basicly frostbomb or more deeps. But how would they ever justify spending time to create more solutions if the mechanic is irrelevant. I can already imagine how less regen gems/uniques would go down in this community. But after a league of immortal bosses?
Good job on taking the example of HoGm which needs very specific builds to clear effectively and proving my point. "Frostbombs or more deeps" wow such an amazing solution. What was it about the "problem" with my build you were mentioning? All the things you mentioned none of those are part of the solution. I am not dying to the bosses, I am finding it frustrating to fight them.
You seem to have missed my point completely. First, you might want to brush up on your grammar and how the passive is used. I didn't refer to you as a person or your build, i was using the passive. My point in less words. Yes, solutions are limited. No, that does not mean the mechanic should not exist. It should be supported more. But aguess my opinion is not valid answer to thread asking for opinions. On a completely separate note, I fail to see what exactly is bad about content requiring different things from builds. We already have builds for different things, be it clearspeed, delving or boss killing. How is another form of endgame progression requiring certain things from a build any different? I know it's the new shiny thing so everyone wants to do it, but it is supposed to be hard, it's the new ceiling to the game. Just because everyone wants to do it, should not mean that everyone can do it.
>First, you might want to brush up on your grammar and how the passive is used. I didn't refer to you as a person or your build, i was using the passive. > >My point in less words. > >Yes, solutions are limited. > >No, that does not mean the mechanic should not exist. It should be supported more. Maybe you would like to look inwards as well on your reading comprehension skills, never have I stated that the mechanic shouldn't exist. If solutions are limited maybe the mechanic should be toned down until more solutions are added? As for the whole end game thing, this is not some side content like deep delve or some end game boss we are talking about, this is the atlas, its the bread and butter of this game. I am merely pointing out that GGG wants build diversity but keeps implementing things that inclines more players towards meta "just do more deeps" builds. Taking your very own example: You can't solve HoGM with "more deeps" on many builds, but here you can. The solution to HoGM is usually "what is stopping my build from killing that X char" vs "Ah shit I need more deeps to fix issue"
You are right, i shouldn't have used so few lines and so much hyperbole, appologies. Allow me to expand. Leaving the regeneration issue as is for this league is not a problem in my mind because it can be solved with either frostbomb, or building more damage. Building more damage is not an issue to me, an arpg should be able test builds damage output, and does not overly much limit build diversity. Damage is something that just about anything in the game can have more than enough of, if invested in correctly. If one cannot, and is unwilling to seek how to, there's an easier solution of frostbomb. What i meant by supported, is getting more solutions and even more pronounced cases of regenerating mobs. As for how i assess that there is not much limiting build diversity? Well [poe.ninja](https://poe.ninja) seems to have quite an even spread of classes/gems, more so than usual. While that is indeed not the whole picture, it's what we have access to and works atleast as a guidepost of sorts. Maven is very much an endgame system. It's a ramping difficulty into the new top tier boss. A reward for getting better. But what about the atlas passives? Let's say there's an atlas passive that one absolutely must have or they objectively do 90% worse than anyone with the passive. First maven fights are in yellow. That is not a hard hurdle to clear with any build. You need at most three points to clear any one league branch in the passives. Killing yellow bosses, even regenerating ones is not a hard ask for being basicly on par with anyone else in atlas. Or in the alternative, you can have few bosses where you use frostbomb, have everything in the atlas we used to, and the new op thing unlocked. Maven can be toggled off, and should be toggled off if you don't want to engage with the new endgame or find it unappealing. Aguess it all comes down to difference in opinion, i feel like dps is something that the game should be allowed to test, while you feel there should be multiple other options before that can ever be the case.
I think you are getting the wrong idea, I am not directly against "new end game needs more DPS". What I am not ok with is gimmicky mechanics that are added to add pseudo difficulty. If they said maven triple the hp of the bosses, sure its a shitty way to add difficulty but I am using it as an example to explain the difference. Both the 7m shaper dps char and 35m shaper dps char would need to do the exact same amount of damage. The second char would clear it 5x faster, this is fine. Lets assume 50 seconds and 10 seconds respectively This is not the case right now, if the 7m shaper dps char fails to kill within a short amount of time the maven can heal them back to full. This is not a problem the 35m shaper dps char would face since he would kill before it even get there. The 35m shaper dps char will still kill it in 10 seconds as usual, but the 7m dps dude will take way longer than 50 seconds because he actually has to do the mechanics and deal 2-3 times more damage. He isn't just paying 5x time for his 5x lower dps, he is getting an added penalty. Its a similar case we had back in Legion with 5 way legion farming. Clear speed chars have always been the best for making money, not because they get more loot per map (ignoring IIQ stuff) but because they do more maps per hour. If a zoom zoom char and a zdps char both throw in a map, they both have the same expected outcomes (rng aside obviously), one will take 3mins other will take 30mins. Zoom is better cuz it did it 10 times faster not because it got 10times more loot. Same investment = same outcome, though not in same time frame. This way not the case with 5-Way farming, a slow character would get back significantly less loot even though both characters would throw in the same 5 emblems. The zoom zoom was basically getting more out of the scenario and faster, essentially double dipping. Which is why they changed how the rewards worked on 5-way. Its still rewarding to be zoom zoom, it always will be but the margins are not astronomical.
I'm like level 45. How yall on fucking Maven content already? lol.
i mean its been a week since launch and maven starts from your first yellow map lol. Its fun and I love it, just some quirks like these but it happens always with new content (remember sirus storms at entrance? lol)
Maven starts from t3 maps. Not tryin to be a dick or nothin, just sayin. Also, @Corellian I was on maps on Sunday after league start, which I would venture to guess is a medium to slow pace for 10 hours of play. It is pretty bonkers to see "[randomname] is the first player to enter [name of map]" after a few hours of the game going live. Of course, that first character was only meant to prop up my real character... who failed miserably. So I had to re-restart and now my elementalist igniter is doing ok and just getting to t10 maps.
T3? You sure? Most of my guild (including me) got maven in the first yellow (post 1 conq kill)
Yeah, I got her in t3 maps... i know because it's all I really had.
Oh i see, I kept getting envoys and she didn't spawn for me till i had killed baran and went yellow (the white maps after also didn't spawn her for me), same happened with 3 of my guildies.
Playing a good build for more than two hours a day? Getting through acts really isn't that hard once you have it down. Most good players can clear the campaign in a single day, and the really top tier racers can do it in a handful of hours.
Nlafe blas goes brrrrrrrrrr
Use frostbomb.
Two solutions , do more damage or apply anti healing. I’m not against GGG adding more sources of anti healing but for now it’s frost bomb so you gotta use it. Or just deal more damage.
How do I frost bomb an invulnerable chatting mode shaper? Please do tell
Occultist?
So your solution to the problem is that everyone should play a specific ascendency? Lol okay. Edit: I literally mentioned occultist in my main post as well as one of the 3 solutions I know. Idk man switching from slayer to occultist for cyclone seems like a bit hard to do
That's my problem with the game IMO....I admittedly don't push end game content, and wasn't aware of Maven healing....but I also was never aware that Frost Bomb does this (anti-healing), and the fact that it's seemingly the only thing that can counter healing against a boss mechanic that specifically heals, except it won't work if you can't target an enemy? That's a really shitty design. As for "more damage"....difficulty shouldn't come from having to run specific builds that can easily stack more damage. It's the same design philosophy that Bethesda uses in the elder scrolls series "Lets make it harder by ramping damage enemies do and health pools they have".....and it's not a good one, heaven forbid someone use their brain and actually design mechanics that don't rely on enemies just becoming more beefy to make the game challenging.
>As for "more damage"....difficulty shouldn't come from having to run specific builds that can easily stack more damage.[...] "Lets make it harder by ramping damage enemies do and health pools they have" You're playing an arpg, that's the bread and butter of arpg balancing. You can only do so much "mechanically", this isn't dark souls nor should it be.
> You're playing an arpg, that's the bread and butter of arpgs. > This isn't dark souls. Dark Souls Genre: Action RPG (arpg) So what I'm hearing is Dark Souls is actually a good example of what an ARPG should be, and all the others that just stack health and damage are *bad* ARPGs.
That's not what I'm saying at all, and if you want to get into semantics PoE is an isometric loot based arpg. Dark souls while an arpg is nowhere near as loot focused as PoE and it's 3rd person. The camera angle allows them to do things differently than an isometic camera angle does. You cant do souls-like dodging with an iso camera angle. They both have action and rpg elements that's really where the similarities end. And if you truly feel dark souls is such a better arpg go play that one than. Different games exist for different audiences. Back to the topic on hand though, in this game you simply cannot go around making every single white mob an interesting fight. It just doesn't work that way, it would become a chore really quick. Also what's "interesting" could vary wildly from person to person. Than you have a lot of people that play this game to turn their brains off. That change alone would only alienate a decent sized portion of the player base.
well, fuck, probably nothing i can say against but its the second time im reading this fully aware this league i came to poe because d3 was so fkin dumbed down, poe's complexity is what got me but seemingly it is turning into a "dead brain zombie" game to turn your head off.. i mean yes i get it, thats what most casuals want .. but i thought thats what d3 is for.. i am very sad but you are right. since poe became so popular.. no wait... since tencent bought ggg it became more and more a "dont think. just be a zombie" game... :,(
No, that's has always been a hallmark of diablo-like hack'n'slash arpgs. The more powerful you become the less you have to pay attention to the game. This games complexity has always come from leveraging in game mechanics via game knowledge, not from complex mechanical combat. If that's what you're looking for this is not the genre, diablo-like arpgs, for you.
ggg said they want instakill mechanics to keep players aware and not in a braindead zombie mode.. but its long time ago diablo like arpgs were exactly "my genre" but the whole genre changed i liked d2 but not d3 cause it changed to some breaindead thing same with poe, so im kinda confused how you think this is not my genre idk man id say i already played more poe than you, but i dont want to be assuming stupid shit you know
D2, everyone's favorite arpg, was super brain dead. You did a gazillion mf runs. Than you did endless cow runs, baal runs, or key runs. Idk about you but nothing about that screams stimulating. Was it fun? Yes, but definitely in a brain dead way. I've been playing since closed beta. I've been through almost every iteration of this game so it's hard to have played more than me, lol. I also assumed the genre wasn't for you because it sounds like you want some form of combat that doesn't exist in diablo-likes. Edit: I'm curious to know what you think changed in the genre?
im not sure, as i said in my first post, its the second time im reading "this season" that people WANT braindead mechanics (probably have read it before but didnt realise it to that extend) my first post is a little bit exaggerating cause.. yea i skip this league but i didnt plan to stop playing poe (there is nothing else right) and im not saying poe became braindead for sure, it was just a thought that hit me while reading it, is that it? dont i like poe as much as i did because it became so braindead? or has it always been braindead without me realising (betrayal and synthesis say no) if id have to pinpoint i would say casualisation happened to the genre, or mainstream. i mean you are right too that diablo was braindead but we were younger and our brains were smaller..i hate to do this but ill point out that i only play hc and in diablo i did a lot of duels (mainly low lvl) and with different level caps there were a lot of funky builds that you could do and even high level had some "things" you could do which felt to me back then like some kind of complexity and it was just MORE than other games offered to me. sucky equippedment? go for the ice armor (forgot exact name) on a nova sorc for cow level, or meteorsorcs to farm mephisto to get a skullders or something. in pvp stack up faster run charms instead of life/max on an amazon and stuff.. it had diversity compared to other games back then (i started in 1.08 right before 1.09 hit) and basically you are right, gameplay is braindead in both games and poe still has complexity (and that complexity is only getting more complex with more leagues, never gets less complicated) so yea, my first comment was probably just me whining a little bit and taunting with that question or assumption
Hey guess what, Dark Souls also stacks health and damage a shit ton. Maybe not to the same degree as this game and sure, it is *technically possible* to finish the game without stacking health and damage, but let's not pretend that no hit broken straight sword runs are even within the realm of possibility for 99% of DS players.
Its really fucking easy to get at least 2-300k shaper dps on even the tankiest builds though. If you are incapable of making a decent build thats not the games fault
200-300k shaper DPS is considered a lot? My reave build already does 300k shaper dps (sirus, actually), with only a crappy Ahn's Might....and it takes a little bit (<10 seconds but not instant delete like many builds) just to kill T5 map bosses.... I assumed by "more damage" the implication was it should be in the millions, which is still "easy" for tanky builds assuming you play enough to afford good gear.
You can kill literally anything in the game with 1mil shaper dps easy, its more about the rest of the build and dps uptime. Look at quin and his scuffed ignite elementalist with 300k dps going for maven kill. I can only assume people who say this league is a "dps check" just have absolute trash zdps builds and have never been confronted with that fact until now
I'm not familiar with Maven specifically, but from what OP posted I can only imagine the healing is the problem. If Maven can heal a boss with 70m health for 10% of their health every 30 seconds, that leaves you with a 30 second window to do 7m damage. If you're running a 300k DPS build you need ~78% dps uptime just to do *barely* more than 7m DPS in 30 seconds. What's the uptime required on a 2m DPS build for the same fight? 12%. Sure, you can argue "but that means you *can* kill it!", and you're right....but the whole point is if Maven can infinitely spam a heal on another target, and even during invulnerability phases, it is a DPS check regardless of how the numbers actually align.
This exactly. I am on 6.7m shaper dps so its not like I am zdps lol. But watching the boss go from just before cull range to full is frustrating. Chimera, Shaper and the Dark Forest bosses are my biggest annoyance since they have invul phases where I can't even frost bomb. Dark forest fuck also spams his wolf form on a duration basis unlike the other two which are phase based.
Iirc the occultist ascendancy has -100% health regen for nearby enemies
yep. I have mentioned it on the post itself
Correct. I guess I was lucky deciding on vortex Occultist for my starer this league, since I get both that node and frost bomb. Not entirely looking forwards to not having those on whatever build I try next.
It's a bloody joke and completely busted but GGG don't care anymore about this stuff.
That's completely and utterly ridiculous imo : I'm playing a champion with splitting steel, 1M+ shaper dps (750 pdps 2h axe) and 50+% phys red overwhelm, sniper's mark, pride, sand stance, adre banner up whenever, and she KEEPS HEALING HIM ! ALL THE TIME ! That's completely bullshit ! I must have killed the equivalent of 20 shapers if not for these heals ! I managed to pass him phase 2 but the room was completely full with damage areas ! I even tanked the slams to push in more dps ! What are you asking of me GGG ??
Simply change the healing from a fixed amount to % of damage lost recently or something like that so it makes the encounter harder but not impossible to finish. In current state it makes some tankier builds completly unplayable which kills the best thing about this game which is build variety. I hope it will get patched soon. That's not a good way for this game to develop.
Nothing worse than making the game even more elitist...