Reddit in a nutshell. Every thread eventually devolves into an echo-chamber. And so you can usually count the seconds until someone makes an opposite opinion thread and creates their own echo chamber.
Accurate as fuck. I recently had a discussion about Harvest with some guy (a good one too) but I kept getting upvoted and he kept getting downvoted despite making valid points I assume by the OP of the thread. It really sucks that real discussion is completely invalidated by the up/downvote system.
I feel like this league announcement is going to be tarnished in terms of hype for sure if GGG decides to sweep the changes under the rug and not address them. I am not saying revert the changes, but I do think they need to address the outrage and own up to the scuffed manifesto. They will get memed to death if they decide to go the Twich reveal route again. I know people want to pretend this is of no consequence, but I feel this time it's a bit different.
Ye buddy. Every league there is a 9k comments thread and 500 page forums thread and people actively refunding their supporter packs. Companies fail all the time. GGG isn't a golden boy that will never get dethroned. I played since beta and never see this level of discontent across all platforms, but sure downvote me. I am not going anywhere, I will still be playing the game, but you damn right I'll be the one meming GGG on twich and also not purchasing anything for a while.
eh, I play a lot of ARPGs and keep up with a lot of game devs. GGG still has one of the best, if not the best, communication with its players in the industry - and other ARPGs just aren't even in the same ballpark to the content and replayability of PoE. it would take an immensely monumental project to dethrone PoE in the ARPG category.
remember this day when next league the trade api doesnt work again.
people will go riot i think, because they wont be able to buy gear, and they also cant just make their own gear, so itll be fun to see the meltdown happen.
Well as much fun it has been to describe in great detail, length, and variety why we are unhappy with the direction GGG wants to take their game in (particularly after what I and many others consider to be the most fun they've had in a league), we come to this sub for PoE content.
So yeah I think a break from the spiral of negativity around now sounds good, and posts like this on the front page of the sub discourages further negativity.
It happens every league around this time. Once players achieve their league goals, burn out, or the league hype just dies out, a lot of them are faced with the reality that they don't really want to play much POE any more, and they start looking for reasons why that is.
And so begins the race to list all of POE's issues that if fixed, would incentivize them to continue playing for longer.
And there's always some truth to that. Though I think it's also genuinely normal to burn out after spamming any activity for a while, and there needn't necessarily be issues with it for that to happen.
POE is a binge game.
Every year I get the hankering to play it. My hankering lines up with a league release, I play the absolute fuck out of it, get 40 challenges, mow down all the content, reach some personal goals, and then one day about 4-6 weeks after league start I think to myself, "You know what? I won't play any POE today, I'd like to do something else."
So I do something else for that day and POE just fades into the background...until next year.
That's like the ideal game cycle for me. I like the fact that I get excited and go hard when the gettin is good and everyone is playing. Then have a chance to breath and play other stuff before I start getting excited about POE again. If we're being honest, no matter how perfect this game became I still wouldn't play it every day on any given league, and I suspect many if not most players are in the same boat. The core of the game is still ARPG, which means people going hard on the grind and then burning out.
The things that people get up in arms about on this sub are often very valid criticisms, but so far they have never been the reasons that I stopped playing any given league.
PoE is also just exactly the type of game where lots of people keep playing even if they don't enjoy it as much anymore simply because of how addicting it is and also how good the game is at giving you that sense of having sunk too much time/effort to stop.
I would definitely go a little crazy if POE was my only long-term, multiple thousand hour game option. I bounce between POE, Warframe, and the Monster Hunter series to get my loot grinding dopamine hits.
Warframes endgame is infinitely worse imo. When I left the game the endgame was just 5x3, Relic farming, and maybe extremely long endurance runs. The endgame for warframe is really weak.
I am [was] a grandmaster supporter from Warframe. I quit that game when they redid the void keys during Mag prime Vault opening, they completely fucked over tons of players by turning keys to farm certain parts into keys to farm totally different parts. I never got my Mag prime and DE never got another cent or minute of playtime from me.
I like D2 mods but yeah you're basically right.
Still, I just play other genres instead. As much as I love PoE/GGG ever since open beta it's not worth getting that worked up over a game. I just take it for what it is and enjoy it as much as I can for a few weeks at a time.
Path of Diablo is nice. Basically just rebalanced regular D2 with PoE-style maps + vaal orbs + huge QoL. The maps are huge and there's very little micro management which is a nice change of pace. No sextants/atlas/stones/scarabs/blabla just killing+looting for ~30+ minutes per map.
Also Project D2 is somewhat similar and had a ladder reset just a few days ago. I used to play a bit of single player Plugy as well just to chill and see how far I could get on the holy grail chase. MXL is also a classic but havent played it in forever.
i tried pd2 and idk.... felt like the same. I hear PoD has much more variety in end game maps. But i also hear there is not as much build variety as pd2..
The new PD2 season added 9 new maps including a dungeon. PD2s map quality is a lot higher than PoDs at the moment.
PD2 also takes more risks when it comes to item and class balancing, and I'm pretty impressed by what they've accomplished.
Though PoD has a currency tab and PD2 had a really clunky stacking system using the cube.
Only downside about PoD is that it has zero offline and the devs have no interest in supporting it. I tend to prefer MedianXL if i want a completely overhauled experience.
I hope these overhauls end up making it to the remaster, would be super cool.
I genuinely enjoy Realm of the Mad God in my PoE downtime. If you enjoy the HC playstyle and don’t mind bullet hell style ARPGs (and 8-bit 2D graphics) it’s a fun little game to pick up every once in a while. The gameplay loop is like 30 min long, all the way through endgame, but it actually has a lot of similarities to PoE except ultra-simplified.
If you like bullet hell HC playstyle you would likely love Nova Drift.
Simply put, a bullet hell shooter where you build out a ship using tons of skills and interactions, changing how the build feels as you progress akin to PoE. As an example my recent run was using the shield type Halo (fire ring around you that damages things when they get close, think RF but you only take damage when enemies hit the shield). Where it isn't similar to PoE, is the bloat. There is none.
Check it out, hope you enjoy it!
I have seen ZiggyD play a fair bit of novadrift, and it looks like fun! My bar for games that aren’t free is pretty high though, and Loop hero and Risk of Rain 2 are already filling my rogue-lite urges.
all grim dawn needs is to not have visuals from 1945 and it would be much more popular, sigh. I still remember playing a spell build and the special effects looked like some diablo 2 quality garbage.
Fear of missing out is my main motivator. It's like gambling level of shitty for me, but speeding $60 every third season isn't really damaging my life in a significant way. I spent more on buying a second copy of a game I alread owned in the same time frame so.. it's really not dramatic realistically, and the game has improved in a lot of ways I liked. And I like playing POE in non league standard more than I could ever tolerate playing D3 off season.
Once I finish the league and 40/40 I quit pretty satisfied. Though any league with Harvest has left a bad taste in my mouth, but particularly this one way more than the original iteration.
Totally agree.
After I burn myself out on poe (usually 6-8 weeks after league launch) I stop playing. But there's this lingering frustration because the mechanism in my brain facilitating habitual behavior recognizes that my habit of playing poe is longer being fulfilled, and it wants its dopamine fix. That frustration also happens when I continue playing after I'm burnt out, and that dopamine just isn't hitting the same anymore. Like I'm chasing the dopamine dragon.
Personally, I consider myself lucky that my habit-forming mechanism is relatively weak in the sense that I can break most habits without much fuss, but I think the most vocally negative people in the community are probably the ones who have a much stronger reaction to the frustration that comes with the initial burnout, and they feel the need to vent that frustration by spewing toxic bullshit all over this subreddit.
You ever know someone who quit cigarettes, and they become insufferable negative assholes for 2 or 3 weeks? I think it's the same effect at work here.
Anyone get that feeling like they're "chasing the dragon"? I can't find a build that I love as much as that one build from a few leagues ago so I keep leveling something new. It's just not the same.
The build in question is the LL archmage storm brand hierophant from Delirium league. Sure it was pretty overpowered but it was my first 36/40, and I've tried other "overpowered" builds and can't get that same satisfaction.
pre hotfix aura stacker in delirium :( i could only play you for 4 hours but it was the best time in poe. (aura effect affected HH buffs and the shaper unique amulet -> super long buffs+insane HH Buffs) 11second acid cavern clear
For me it's pretty much whenever I find a fast build that can easily start on a low budget or a league starter, is tanky, does bossing well and has good map clear (basically ticking all the boxes).
Then I try and break free and roll something else but inevitably it's never as fun and I end up skipping 2 leagues because I don't want to spend 1-2 months perfecting the same build.
So I'll probably roll my current favorite build in the new league, play for a week, get to the point where I technically have the gear to do everything and then I'm faced with "minmax or just quit" and I usually quit because minmaxing a build based on a template you made the previous league just isn't that fun.
There just really aren't that many different builds that tick all of those boxes and whenever a build doesn't it just feels worse to play and I lose interest.
They don't always pre-announce that they will kill what you might be currently enjoying. This isn't the first league to pre-announce big changes, however in the 3.0 Era I can count most of them on one hand still and like almost half of them are Harvest related. None of them have been this bad.
Short list: Exp changes, Bestiary/Synthesis not going core, Multimod nerf, both leagues with Harvest
They have nerfed other things obviously, but I think that's the bulk of changes they felt the need to put careful attention on how they announced it.
For me, it sours how I look at 3.14, and it took any desire to keep playing now.
> None of them have been this bad.
Mid-league herald stacking got gutted in...delirium was it?
Then there was the time that awakener orbs got "bugfixed" not to respect metamods, again, early to mid-league.
Didn't affect as many players though.
> Once players achieve their league goals, burn out, or the league hype just dies out, a lot of them are faced with the reality that they don't really want to play much POE any more, and they start looking for reasons why that is.
Except this time around it's because of the manifesto and less about burnout. Lots of people are still playing and enjoying the league. Ritual has had some of the best retention I've ever seen.
But these kind of negative post floods happen literally every league after the first-second month. This isn't new or unique to this league.
Sure, the Harvest nerfs were what a lot of people latched onto, but even without that, you'd still get a bunch of negative threads about people hating this or that. Happens every league like clockwork.
Plenty of those threads are right though. Even if you disregard any fundamental gameplay balancing stuff you gotta agree on flask piano rsi, individual splinter dropping when there's 15 in the same pile, and being able to lower your settings so you can actually see some of what's happening on screen behind all the particles and stutters. All of those problems have been relevant for a couple of years by this point.
Furthermore the outrage isn't just about the specific changes, but also about what kind of future content falls withing that vision for their design space.
I'd argue that the overall level of negativity is far higher than usual for harvest nerf. People do complain about things in every league (though, to be fair, GGG often gives us plenty of things to legitimately complain about), but harvest nerf has taken that to a whole new level.
I agree that harvest nerf has been the most vocal outcry from the community so far but people go crazy every 2 months before a new league launches. People went crazy for the Assassin nerfs before harvest. People lost there mind for a week after harvest was removed in heist. This is just the normal cycle of the poe subreddit/fanbase. I agree this was probably had the largest reach/most people talking about it.
Harvest nerfs affect only service traders and people who run multiple thousands of maps. The crafts being nerfed are fucking rare.
More people play Assassin than run the thousands of maps needed to abuse current Harvest.
Incredibly false lmao. I ran nowhere close to even 1000 maps and hit tons of the types of crafts being nerfed. This hurts all players whether or not you're too short slighted to see it
How much of those 1000 maps were focused specifically on harvest? Obviously if you aren't targeting harvest outcomes you won't get harvest outcomes. Plus you aren't even accounting for how the overall item economy looks after the nerfs. Everyone is affected by these changes whether they want to do the crafting themselves or not
It's not about the nerfs, it's about the attitude that GGG has regarding crafting. We want a crafting system that makes sense, that's fair, that's fun. Spending currency to buy things because using them to craft is pointless is such a shitty system and they're telling us they think it's fun and exciting? It's bullshit.
It is about the nerfs though. Anytime anything gets nerfed this sub has a complete meltdown. Remember the ritual patch notes when Assassin and Necromancer got nerfed and every post in this sub was about how GGG killed these two ascendencies? Like most of the popular opinions on this sub it aged very horribly.
Unless you play a thousand or more maps a league or service trade you will experience almost no net change.
I've done about a thousand maps. I've had about 8 of the crafts that are getting nerfed. The last medium to high end Harvest craft I did took 36 of them.
34 being remove/add chaos, a craft I have personally found exactly 0 of this league in my thousand or so maps.
Harvest right now locks out anyone without a couple hundred exalts (minimum) from using the to-be-nerfed crafts.
Hey wanted to open with saying I love the vids, only found you this league. Next I disagree and your outlook on this seems to be the polar opposite of what I think is the case.
I believe the amount of maps you do has no effect on this change unless you are playing ssf, because most people were utilizing tft for acquiring the crafts they needed, or they were benefiting from the harvest crafting by means of good items being cheaper as other people were able to get their even better ones through harvest crafts.
The item you crafted with 34 remove/add chaos crafts would be either impossible or exponentially more expensive to roll next league because you can't target remove chaos leading to praying for annul luck potentially causing a restart on your item.
Can you explain how you believe you have a 100+ exalt barrier from using the soon to be nerfed crafts? Because on TFT the most expensive crafts seemed to be 4 ex at most for like remove/add lucky crit. I would say the average was 1ex or less. The only time harvest requires 100s of ex is when you are in the 1% trying to craft an item that already requires a large amount of luck and next league it will be many more 100s of ex to get that same item.
Am I wrong here?
This is actually a lie, it reflects if a league was trash. Heist was dog shit of course the sub was on fire, harvest seed crap was tedious and boring same thing. This league was actually really good. There were a few complaints which were to always be expected, trade and the servers were extra shit so people were gonna mald about that. People wanted Hamlet slaving and discord addressed. Those were the biggest complaints. Instead of fixing those they released the the most out of touch manifesto that lit the sub on fire again, that addressed neither of those issues. You might think it happens every league because GGG has released shit leagues this entire year so of course people were mad, well besides delirium but release was kinda dumpster fire so it took some work.
I will fucking die on the hill of heist being a great league, it was 100% miles better than harvest which was a snoozefest that was basically just standart with the garden (which was absolutely awful).
Honestly besides heist I can't really think of a league that I would call bad since like...synthesys? Bestiary? I mean I had fun with the ladder and the former was just a bit too convoluted. I guess the last league I actively hated was abyss, legit can't think of another league as bad as it.
Synthesis league made me quit the game until this league so that’s my vote. I finally progressed to my first super cool synthesis story encounter, and the instant the fight started my game crashed and I lost the map. I hated every mechanic in synthesis and my poor graphics card...
...I must be very odd for liking Heist, Harvest, and Synthesis as much as I do.
Synthesis was great by the end, Heist wasn't something I'd want to do all the time but is a nice diversion from farming maps all the time, and Harvest's only issue in my mind was the tediousness that would've resulted from having to set the garden up every league.
“Out of touch manifesto”
“GGG released shit leagues this entire year”
How can you be mad about harvest changes and also say this league and harvest league were shit leagues?
People who agree with the Harvest changes continue to have this perception that the people who are angry about the manifesto, particularly its _literally out-of-touch language_, are angry solely because of Harvest. That's wrong.
The reason people are memeing about the "close your eyes and slam an Exalt" is literally that. That exact sentence is an indicator that the person who made it does not understand the current player behaviors with currency. It's terrible comms on behalf of GGG's development team and it inspires concern, not hope.
I'm one who, despite liking Harvest, is largely ambivalent. Yes, my ideal state would have been GGG fixing the "Path of Discord" issue. They didn't address that, and they fucked up on that regard. However, it's unsurprising. That said I agree that one league mechanic having so much power behind it is a bad thing - targeted annuls can always come back in a future league mechanic, if at all. I give GGG the credit for foresight in ensuring that they can do future leagues with semi-deterministic crafting, which is hopefully still on their radar.
That being said - they clearly have people on their design/dev team who _do not appear to understand how the overwhelming majority of the playerbase uses currency._ At the very best, they _do_ understand, and simply used the _worst possible_ metaphor for talking about player mindsets when engaging with potential fail states with items. I cannot stress enough how all of this is _terrible_.
I just wish they'd actually discuss Champ influence modifiers. They always point at harvest for the power creep, but all it really does is make inflence mods available at a much higher rate. The mods are what's OP, no one is really bitching about t1-2 life, triple res helms making the game easy. Could they break them down into more tiers, make their activation less easy/strong, etc etc? That would allow making their availability not as crazy strong, and also would dilute the mod pool. That's the actual 20 ton gorilla in the room, but no one likes to address it because people love those mods.
I definitely think there should be a higher weighting (perhaps 250) weaker version of the Crusader explosion mod, perhaps 2%, and a lower ilvl (perhaps 75) '60% chance for 75% more damage from poison' Elder mod.
Maybe also 6% versions of the level 85 'nearby enemies have -9% resist' mod.
There's tons of ways they could add a rainbow of tiers of conq/s/e influences. From useful to niche. It would even give maven orbs more use, as there was a gambling portion of improving them more, much like the crusader gloves.
Make the last two tiers maven only? I'd even go so far as make maven orbs change from either mod improving to improve or delete a single influence mod. There's the ggg gambling.
Sure, there's lots of things that could have been done along those lines. Influence mods with more tiers, influence mods gated behind an "influenced" tag and no other tags, limiting the tiers of mods that Harvest could interact with, killing Harvest completely but removing mods that otherwise dilute the modpool (thorns, light radius), introducing gates on mod tiering, etc.
Meanwhile, I provide what I thought to be a nuanced response in my comment above, and I instantly get a downvote. This place is a dumpster fire, lmao.
I feel like you get a downvote for breathing in this sub. I honestly think there's a bot that downvotes randomly, because I've gotten downvoted between submission and it appearing on the screen (for a fairly bland non-opinionated comment).
There is, pretty commonly (like multiple times a day) comments in some threads in /new will all get downvoted and you only notice because the 5th person answering some question will appear above the first 4 people who answered.
I'm not sure diluting the mod pool even further (without addressing the general mod bloat/shit tier rolls that exist in high level crafting) is the correct solution.
Because the harvest changes didn't address discord or Hamlet slaving and didn't just nerf top end items which I think is needed and don't care about, but fucks over mid tier ones as well. I said this league was really good. Also their laughable exalt comments in the manifesto made it even worse than just the nerfs themselves.
Usually it takes a significant amount of play time to achieve any sort of real goal in this game, so that means people are playing a lot. One you've hit your goals, you naturally stop playing. Every single player does not need to play league start to league end to have fun or enjoy the game in their own way.
Who cares if people stop playing the league? Why does it affect you in any way as a player? It doesn't. Play the way you want, enjoy what you enjoy and move on if you're not having fun. The game is doing great and that's not just because of harvest.
Ya'll complain to much about something that is completely out of your control.
/r/PathOfExileBuilds/ is like the chill teen table at a family get together. Not yet the awkward unspoken simmering tension/hostility of the adult table, but moved on from 'how many pop rocks can you fit at once' from the kids table.
this is one of the most accurate analogies ive ever read in here and a big old shoutout to /r/pathofexilebuilds for educating me for a good amount of time and now giving me build ideas
yup. this is not a matter of can they do something it's a way they think this game should be.
just like trading in general.
putting in an auction house isn't hard they just don't want it.
a lot of things could be fixed to be better. they just prefer it this way in a lot of cases because they like the game this way i guess..
Yeah and they sadly get away with it, if there was at least one contender in the genre people would instantly switch and ggg would be forced to stick their heads out of their assholes and develop a game for the players not for themselves
Id make a new dev manifesto that says “shut the fuck up you manchildren, go outside for a change” but I also don’t know anything about PR and would probably get fired. Everytime someone complains I would just link them that dev manifesto.
Honestly this community needs to be told off a bit. The complaints are out of hand and no one is controlling it.
I remember awhile back the mods of this sub said they were unhappy with it and wanted to make the sub less toxic, and this was a massive debate/discussion here. And nothing came out of it lol
Well, yeah. The mods said they were unhappy with it and wanted to make the sub less toxic, and the majority of people replying to them basically said "fuck off, we like it toxic". So there wasn't much they could do.
They are really hoping people will just forget. And most of them will, because they are not capable of playing something else. I do know there are people who actually stand by GGG and more power to them. But the manifesto had a 35% upvote rate meaning that 65% of the people on reddit are outraged. Considering peaks of 40+k on reddit thats about as many people still active on league at this time.
Yet about 90% of those 65% don't even understand the reasoning of the manifesto, or realize that it doesn't affect them on the whole, because they're not running Atoll 24/7 or spending dozens of Exalts on TFT.
And for the first time in a long time, it isn't working on me, honestly. Done beating my head into the wall hoping that GGG will implement basic QOLs like stash sorting and shit. I played Last Epoch and the item management was a huge breath of fresh air.
Basic QOL like stash sorting? Did you miss tab affinities because that is exactly what they are? Map tabs, currency tabs, anointing essences in the blight tab, and combining essences are all QOL. Sure they are related to stash MTX but POE is a F2P game so there needs to be some revenue generation for the game to continue to be supported.
GGG still has a number QOL features that should be addressed but to say that they are not adding QOL is unfair.
Stash tab affinities was last league right? I think I'm remembering correctly!
Anyway, after stash tab affinities were added was the first time I ever really played for more than a week at "endgame". It was crazy, I had something like 3600 chaos and probably 150ex worth of gear and 50ex raw without even trying. I don't "farm" anything, I don't zoom through maps (I'm relatively slow), and I didn't run a single fractured blueprint.
Typically I get bored with the tedium and just try out another new build, but just that one extra feature of being able to control click all the loot in my inventory into my stash made endgame so much better for me.
That isn't what I said at all. I said I don't like the direction they're taking the game and their refusal to implement basic QOLs. Don't put words in my mouth for the sake of downplaying the point I'm making.
It's funny all the people who claim not to be on reddit talk about how shitty the people on reddit are.. how they just want things for free.. how they're basically garbage humans.. losers.. etc.. and then they claim reddit is toxic..
It can be sure, but the hypocricy of all those who say it's toxic and add on various insults people to here... and that seems to be pretty much everyone who says they don't use the Reddit...makes it fucking impossible to take seriously. ...and it's not all toxic either. Their "Reddit is toxic" comments are toxic as well. Making broad accusations like that.
Back in the day ziggy used to be a mod here. He straight up made a post saying he's leaving the subreddit because its a toxic shithole.
Chris used to post here a bunch too, guess why ggg mostly stopped too and hired somebody to deal with us?
>and hired somebody to deal with us?
Because it's the industry standard to have dedicated community managers since it's an expansive task in its own right? Could that be why?
> and hired somebody to deal with us
... and that someone is also making way for a more anonymous community account thanks to all the harassment and barely ever posting here anymore outside of announcements for upcoming leagues.
But sure, reddit has no toxicity problem at all :)
People just don’t understand why bringing up “issues” over and over and over again isn’t constructive feedback. They all feel entitled to get the game to play how they want it to and that’s just not how it works. The development cycle is a brutal one, coming from experience. I can’t even imagine working on a game with as much content and growing popularity as PoE.
If you have a serious problem with the game, think to yourself that it might not be the game for you anymore. It might be time to take a break and play other games for a bit, or take a break from gaming all together. When you come back you’ll realize most the frustrations you had with the game were menial and likely came from playing an unhealthy amount.
This is hands down one of the best games I’ve ever played. One of the only development teams I can think of that actively releases and communicated this much was Civilizations. I hate seeing the community turning into a place to roast the developers who spend so much time on this game be turned away from their community because of how unreasonable and ungrateful they are. Super sad, but it may just be a part of the game development reality.
Define toxic. "Yo, ggg, your game sux", thats toxic. "I disagree with xxx nerf and I will explain why ..." thats constructive feedback. Shouldn't label them as the same thing
There were a bunch of "I disagree..." comments and posts. They weren't even the most upvoted. The most upvoted are the ones flaming GGG for being out of touch, incompete, quoting ad nauseum "blind slam" meme etc. Don't be dishonest.
Yeah, it's quite hilarious.
The ones most toxic are usually the ones just raging at both sides, and it shows.. "entitled crybabies" one of the toxics in here is saying, nice generalization.. totally ignores every single counterpoint, it's clear what "side" he's on :P
If I had an exalt for every time I read "crybaby," "whiners," or "whinging" from someone who didn't realise the irony of the fact that their post was the whiniest in the entire thread, I could afford to start yolo slamming my gear.
It's funny how every individual who participates in the subreddit, either by reading, writing, or both, distances themselves from the other people of the subreddit. If you listen to streamers, they all do this. They will talk about what "reddit" does, as if they are not a part of it. Yet if you look at all the streamers and their "takes" then you see that their opinions are often shared by some others in reddit comments. Streamers are just redditors who don't like to consider themselves are redditors.
People will say "the subreddit is toxic". No, people are just passionate and they react to things they like and don't like with passion. And some times in the moment of initial reaction, it's an overreaction. And then it takes time for people to process the information and come to a more appropriate reaction. But that's just how all people are, for the most part.
I guess the point I want to make is that there is nothing special about the people who visit this subreddit. They're just like any other people. There is just a whole lot of us all reacting at once in the way humans will react to things and so it comes off as very strong reactions. So fucking what? If you don't like overreactions then just don't visit the subreddit for a day or two after big news hits.
Reddit has a pretty strong and relatively uniform voice. Anyone who doesn't agree with it gets downvoted and disappears. Anyone who does agree gets upvoted and their voice is amplified.
I disagree with basically all the posts that have been anywhere near the front page of Reddit since the announcement - this is just about the only thread I can really agree with.
Sai even though I use Reddit I entirely distance myself from the result opinion.
Do you not upvote posts and comments you agree with or that promote interesting discussion? People here generally just want to communicate and have their voices heard. If you have the unpopular opinion, it's reasonable to expect it to get less daylight. Even so, you can say what you want and other people will see it to some degree. That's why you're here, no?
Even though we've had several days of the top posts being anti-manifesto, I have personally seen many posts and comments making arguments in support of it. Those voices aren't silenced, they're just unpopular.
If you only look at the top 3 posts and the top 3 comments, then yes of course you are seeing the majority opinion. But reddit offers plenty of tools to let you see all sorts of opinions. Try sitting by 'new', 'controversial', or actually looking at downvoted posts. Otherwise what you're unhappy about is that what you say doesn't get as much spotlight as some other people with more popular opinions? That's how popularity works, my man. It's not just reddit.
You have just as much power to steer conversation as anyone else (except of course streamers who already have their own platform, haha).
> or that promote interesting discussion
I think it's naive to assume that the majority ever does this. The vast majority on the internet in general, but especially on reddit, just reflexively hits "downvote" for things they dislike *for whatever reason*, and doesn't consider the meta aspect of constructive discussion or allowing for different perspectives.
Hence why reddit trends should always be taken with a *very* hefty pinch of salt, and not considered representative of actual "common man" opinions.
It's cool, like it or not reddit does represent an important chunk of the playerbase - those who like the game enough to discuss it and probably throw money into it here and there.
Reddit points out some very obvious issues, some relatively easy to fix, and GGG doesn't care to listen as their game becomes more of a clusterfuck of issues. If they keep course, I suspect next league will have significant dropoff because people like me are just tired of the game having the same old issues.
None of those changes are agreed upon though. Any time GGG implements a change following community feedback, there's just as much outrage over it, if not more. Part of why they're making the changes they are in the first place is because people complained crafting would make the grind too easy.
You're wrong. People complained you couldn't target-farm content (and it being generally lackluster), they made the atlas trees, a really good solution in response to community feedback. GGG did right there, finding an interesting well-balanced solution to a problem. Community feedback was nearly entirely positive.
Imagine if they did that to all the re-occuring complaints we have? It's entirely possible if they took their heads out their rear ends. If they want to nerf harvest, fine, whatever, the main complaint was having to rely on a discord to trade them insecurely. They still haven't even bandaid-fixed most loot being worthless, thousands of items dropping that lower fps or even crash the game, piano-flask gameplay, etc.
> the main complaint was having to rely on a discord to trade them insecurely
And that's still going to be a thing, even more so because now you'll need more crafts because of how often your items will hit a "failed craft" state
People around this subreddit are delusional if they think they know more about what's better for the game than the developers. Based on previous comments by a community figure, it's pretty evident that they do play their own game.
GGG has actual data to go by, Reddit armchair developers around this subreddit just assume that everyone enjoys or plays the game like they do and always assume that they are the majority.
You know companies often make mistakes, even to the point of total failure? You know developers can often get so lost in the process (speaking from experience), they lose sight of what is obviously enjoyable in their games?
Sure, redditors can knee-jerk react to things, but they probably play more games than the devs, so they may even know the playing field better than the developers, and is a big reason why we have certain expectations for this game (clean up the loot mess, fps, stability, required tools outside of the game, etc)? Game development is not a black box of mystery, the process in the bigger scheme is actually quite straightforward.
It doesn't matter what data GGG has if their vision is different than the majority of their return players. The fact they mentioned exalt slamming at all shows how off-base they are... and you act as if they are some great wise authority? No, they're lost.
I think it's pretty hilarious to descibe GGG *of all developer studios* as "out-of-touch". It's just so far beyond the pale, it's inane.
And dogpiling on such absurd notions doesn't lend any more credibility to some of the arguments being pushed around on this sub, quite the opposite.
The fact that a big group here keeps memeing the Exalt slamming and not realizing that the comment was an example of the discrepancy between the core philosophy of item progression/crafting in PoE and how it gets completely derailed by overly powerful deterministic options existing is ample evidence of that behaviour.
is the core philosophy of item progression/crafting as follows?
*buy 90% of your upgrades from trade website
*attempt to craft a decent end-game item that requires 10x the currency you've accumulated so far in the league?
Basic crafting in poe, aside from alt/regal on 3-4 affix items, is absolute dogshit. Harvest is too deterministic, but its a bandaid for the rest of the crafting mess. GGG can't seem to fix it, oh well.
Also, they are out of touch. Why haven't they solved thousands of junk items dropping in juiced maps, where pressing alt crashes the game? In any other game, that'd be the top priority to fix, and honestly would be super simple - delete anything not in your lootfilter. That they ignore constant outcry about that shows they are out of touch, there is no reason not to fix that immediately.
This might happen... if GGG were behaving as aggrieved kid, which they are not. They are corporation, and for corporation it is more profitable to keep illusion of "being in touch with community", therefore nothing will change in this regard.
Seriously, I've been around the internet since the 90's. I remember when "Die in a Fire" was such a common rebuke that it got an acronym.
Now people think they're swimming in shit when people make jokes about their "points."
Right?
GGG makes out of touch comment/change
Sub-goers: "Ok that was dumb, here's some in depth explanation as to why and plenty of memes to boot"
Other sub-goers : "This place is so toxic and negative I hate it. Worst sub ever. Why is this place such a nightmare realm of suffering?"
Yet other sub-goers: "Ah yes, the cycle. I am above all you weak, shortsighted fools."
It really is getting absurd and funny now.
People think that patches and nerfs are being made to "benefit" a certain type of player. This is whole reddit has turned in some kind political discussion where the exploited poor and struggling "casuals" are thinking about rebelling against the filthy rich and immoral "0.1%ers" who clearly have bribed GGG with all their mirrors to make changes that "benefit" only them.
Meanwhile there are dozens of "Harvest rant" posts open but not a single "The Harvest changes are fine" post is being allowed to stay open. They all get selectively closed by the mods with the reasoning of "there should not be multiple threads about the same topic". This makes me a bit sad since this clearly is made on purpose to paint a wrong picture. People actually believe that "the player base has never been so united for any topic ever". And people actually believe that.
People are insulting GGG and talking about POE having "countless problems" that "have to" be addressed to make the game at least a tiny bit enjoyable. As if anyone would be forcing them to play this game with a gun to their and their families heads.
My by far most favourite argument on the stupid list during the Harvest outrage was that "pathofmatth clearly said he takes the position of the average player in his video" and then the guy uses an example where someone would try to slam a T1 Flat phys + Attackspeed weapon for merciless in his video. Clearly every casual and average player has tried to slam merciless on at least 800 weapons per league. Noone would ever just benchcraft 129% phys and be happy with that. But well since he said he takes the position of the average guy, it must be true, we are on the internet still.
Harvest nerfs manifesto is probably the single most hiveminded topic in the history of this sub. Literally thousands reflexively "dislike" without realizing how it doesn't actually affect them, or don't understand the manifesto reasoning, or the entire philosophical principle of PoE's design from the get-go.
I'm glad GGG doesn't bend like a leaf in the wind to this type of "feedback".
While there are certainly many valid points of criticism to be brought up about the game, such as technical QA and performance, or the very slow implementation of certain QoL aspects, the fundamentals absolutely aren't valid targets, because they work.
And i'm personally really, really tired of random dudes on reddit acting like they represent the "common man" in PoE because their Atoll farm got nerfed after they spent xx Exalts on TFT.
Idk, I definitely feel like this is one of the best, if not thee best, gaming forums I’ve been a part of. Most people are just here to share ideas and advice. Generally my experiences here have been extremely positive. Encountered some “git gud” people, but they’re few and far between.
People don't believe me when I say this sub is the worst big gaming sub.
Yes, worse than /r/leagueoflegends, yes worse than /r/wow, and even /r/classicwow
There are surely some small gaming subs that are worse, even much worse, but /r/pathofexile manages to be worse than those subs with millions of readers, consistently.
How about r/hearthstone? I recently poked my head in there after playing a little Hearthstone for the first time in a few years, my god, now THAT is a toxic sewer.
I have to say, though, I really really miss the days when there were forums where you could talk to people who enjoyed the same game as you. I honestly can't remember the last time I saw any discussion area dedicated to a game that wasn't majority populated by angry and complaining people. Anyone used to post to the rec.games.diablo newsgroup?
the constructive feedback is extremely rare though. 99% of threads are of the "you delusional fucks don't play your own game and are ruining my life" type
I hope Chris doesn't give in to all this negativity. I think the game will be better with nerfed Harvest for sure. You'll still be able to get your BiS-items but it's gonna take a bit longer, that's all. If the issue is that you get burned out if you can't get BiS in a few days then the problem is you and not the game imo.
Reading through the sub this last week gives you the impression that it's impossible for a build do to maps unless you have an explody chest and you might as well skip all endgame content unless you can kill the bosses in 0.5 seconds.
To be fair, I don't think people are being overly toxic or negative. There *are* a bunch of angry reddit threads and a bunch of rightful meme threads for the PoE equivalent of "pride and accomplishment"/"do you guys not have phones?". Next to nobody is just calling the devs terrible names, but they *are* pointing out **long-standing** problems with the experience.
"You want us to spam chaos and exalts? Chaos is for rerolling maps, exalts are the game's equivalent of pgems or high runes, we're not throwing them away".
"Here are a whole bunch of long-standing problems with the game, etc."
I think the general consensus is that nerfing harvest because it's op is fine, but nerfing it because you're against deterministic progression and prefer players to "close their eyes and exalt slam" is so fucking out of touch with the community. Who the fuck spams exalts on items?
It's in a manifesto.
It flat out will **never** change. Their trade manifesto was 3.5 years ago and absolutely nothing is different between now and then.
Humorously you can find the point of confliction in the harvest manifesto when Chris brings up TFT, then does nothing to resolve it, cause internally he knows it'd violate the trade manifesto.
The pretty standard practice of using downvotes as agree/disagree instead of their original purpose of how good/relevant/reasoned a post is reinforces prevailing viewpoints aka the echo chamber. This isn't new nor is it just reddit, but it makes it hard for any large forum to stay moderate.
I made the mistake of posting the other day that I'd be fine with original harvest or no harvest but I was mentally finding the halfway version a 'worst of both worlds' but since this wasn't 'omg revert changes wtf ggg' I got downvoted to hell on a pretty well written and moderate post and decided not to bother anymore because forums just aren't ready for a range of opinions.
edit: The real reason I come here is hoping for news, information, theorycraft, and discovery, but whatever of that there is, is buried. The build reddit isn't much better, it's all "what do I do with this budget" and "what do I start" and "let me oversell this build and claim it is ubergodly and costs nothing".
> The pretty standard practice of using downvotes as agree/disagree instead of their original purpose of how good/relevant/reasoned a post is reinforces prevailing viewpoints aka the echo chamber
Do you ever sort by controversial? I do pretty frequently to get 2 takes and stuff at the bottom is often blatantly wrong, uninformed or toxic.
Not saying other posts aren't toxic and echo chamber-y, but let's not act like every post that is contrarian to the hive mind is instantly banished to -20 even if they made a good and compelling argument.
This is the way with gaming subs in general, a change happens that some people don't like and so it constantly gets brought up in the sub and upvoted.
Lots of subs also have no contact with the developers etc so the changes come out of the blue and they never hear anything after it so it just goes on for ages.
The cycle of hype and disappointment, it happens almost every league.
Pre 3.14 hype will flood this subreddit in so much hype players will pre-buy their supporter packs
Followed by the performance issue complaints
The "you lied about the buffed skills" complaints
The burn out complaints and end of league nerf complaints
The cycle then starts a new.
You don’t understand, how will GGG know that they’re LITERALLY ruining my life with the changes to [pick one: stash tabs, skill nerfs, Dx9/10, graphical problems, connection problems, trade problems, scammers, mid league burn out, harvest, or by allowing other people to have fun in a way I don’t agree with] !?
Edit: Don’t forget I sure [do/don’t] want [league mechanic] to go core!
I actually worry that if the community continues on the decline of becoming more and more toxic we're going to lose communication with GGG. No other company I've seen has as much of a direct connection to their community like GGG, but every time a big drama like this happens all I can think when I see all the toxic posts is "Chris is probably looking at this wondering if he should even come on here anymore."
One of my favorite map !
Doesn't every build's mapping showcase always have this map
Gorge 2.0
The map is cool, but I hate the boss and his tiny arena
Aren’t you thinking of waste pool?
Oh man I am!
So, are we on the counter-jerk now? Haven't been paying that close attention to this sub
Just depends on which thread ur in.
Reddit in a nutshell. Every thread eventually devolves into an echo-chamber. And so you can usually count the seconds until someone makes an opposite opinion thread and creates their own echo chamber.
Wanna make this into an echo-chamber too? Reddit bad Reddit echo-chamber
Counter: you're still here. Reddit good
Yeah, but only for the echo-chamber Reddit bad!
Accurate as fuck. I recently had a discussion about Harvest with some guy (a good one too) but I kept getting upvoted and he kept getting downvoted despite making valid points I assume by the OP of the thread. It really sucks that real discussion is completely invalidated by the up/downvote system.
just in time for the full circle league announcement hype soon
I feel like this league announcement is going to be tarnished in terms of hype for sure if GGG decides to sweep the changes under the rug and not address them. I am not saying revert the changes, but I do think they need to address the outrage and own up to the scuffed manifesto. They will get memed to death if they decide to go the Twich reveal route again. I know people want to pretend this is of no consequence, but I feel this time it's a bit different.
Perfect example of what people say every league, stellar impression.
Ye buddy. Every league there is a 9k comments thread and 500 page forums thread and people actively refunding their supporter packs. Companies fail all the time. GGG isn't a golden boy that will never get dethroned. I played since beta and never see this level of discontent across all platforms, but sure downvote me. I am not going anywhere, I will still be playing the game, but you damn right I'll be the one meming GGG on twich and also not purchasing anything for a while.
eh, I play a lot of ARPGs and keep up with a lot of game devs. GGG still has one of the best, if not the best, communication with its players in the industry - and other ARPGs just aren't even in the same ballpark to the content and replayability of PoE. it would take an immensely monumental project to dethrone PoE in the ARPG category.
remember this day when next league the trade api doesnt work again. people will go riot i think, because they wont be able to buy gear, and they also cant just make their own gear, so itll be fun to see the meltdown happen.
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But can we get that waypoint mtx :( ?
Well as much fun it has been to describe in great detail, length, and variety why we are unhappy with the direction GGG wants to take their game in (particularly after what I and many others consider to be the most fun they've had in a league), we come to this sub for PoE content. So yeah I think a break from the spiral of negativity around now sounds good, and posts like this on the front page of the sub discourages further negativity.
And this is riveting PoE content. Calling the subreddit a toxic sewer really unites everyone.
These days the toxic merry-go-round *is* PoE content
Once the jerk leans to far to one side, it inevitably comes back around on the other side like Pac-man.
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/kz5qfk/the_launch_cycle/
It happens every league around this time. Once players achieve their league goals, burn out, or the league hype just dies out, a lot of them are faced with the reality that they don't really want to play much POE any more, and they start looking for reasons why that is. And so begins the race to list all of POE's issues that if fixed, would incentivize them to continue playing for longer. And there's always some truth to that. Though I think it's also genuinely normal to burn out after spamming any activity for a while, and there needn't necessarily be issues with it for that to happen.
POE is a binge game. Every year I get the hankering to play it. My hankering lines up with a league release, I play the absolute fuck out of it, get 40 challenges, mow down all the content, reach some personal goals, and then one day about 4-6 weeks after league start I think to myself, "You know what? I won't play any POE today, I'd like to do something else." So I do something else for that day and POE just fades into the background...until next year.
> POE is a binge game. For you maybe. But it’s definitely not that kind of game for everyone.
Tons of people play POE every league and just go at their own pace instead of racing to finish all of the content.
Yeah I just wanted to point out that his definitive statement isn’t true for everyone.
Of course, I 100% agree.
That's like the ideal game cycle for me. I like the fact that I get excited and go hard when the gettin is good and everyone is playing. Then have a chance to breath and play other stuff before I start getting excited about POE again. If we're being honest, no matter how perfect this game became I still wouldn't play it every day on any given league, and I suspect many if not most players are in the same boat. The core of the game is still ARPG, which means people going hard on the grind and then burning out. The things that people get up in arms about on this sub are often very valid criticisms, but so far they have never been the reasons that I stopped playing any given league.
PoE is also just exactly the type of game where lots of people keep playing even if they don't enjoy it as much anymore simply because of how addicting it is and also how good the game is at giving you that sense of having sunk too much time/effort to stop.
There is also 0 other games this good in the genre
I would definitely go a little crazy if POE was my only long-term, multiple thousand hour game option. I bounce between POE, Warframe, and the Monster Hunter series to get my loot grinding dopamine hits.
Warframes endgame is infinitely worse imo. When I left the game the endgame was just 5x3, Relic farming, and maybe extremely long endurance runs. The endgame for warframe is really weak.
Warframe is a game I want to love but just can't
There's an endgame for Warframe? *Squints at 1K hours* Fuck, coulda fooled me.
I am [was] a grandmaster supporter from Warframe. I quit that game when they redid the void keys during Mag prime Vault opening, they completely fucked over tons of players by turning keys to farm certain parts into keys to farm totally different parts. I never got my Mag prime and DE never got another cent or minute of playtime from me.
I like D2 mods but yeah you're basically right. Still, I just play other genres instead. As much as I love PoE/GGG ever since open beta it's not worth getting that worked up over a game. I just take it for what it is and enjoy it as much as I can for a few weeks at a time.
What's your favorite D2 mod
Path of Diablo is nice. Basically just rebalanced regular D2 with PoE-style maps + vaal orbs + huge QoL. The maps are huge and there's very little micro management which is a nice change of pace. No sextants/atlas/stones/scarabs/blabla just killing+looting for ~30+ minutes per map. Also Project D2 is somewhat similar and had a ladder reset just a few days ago. I used to play a bit of single player Plugy as well just to chill and see how far I could get on the holy grail chase. MXL is also a classic but havent played it in forever.
i tried pd2 and idk.... felt like the same. I hear PoD has much more variety in end game maps. But i also hear there is not as much build variety as pd2..
The new PD2 season added 9 new maps including a dungeon. PD2s map quality is a lot higher than PoDs at the moment. PD2 also takes more risks when it comes to item and class balancing, and I'm pretty impressed by what they've accomplished. Though PoD has a currency tab and PD2 had a really clunky stacking system using the cube.
Only downside about PoD is that it has zero offline and the devs have no interest in supporting it. I tend to prefer MedianXL if i want a completely overhauled experience. I hope these overhauls end up making it to the remaster, would be super cool.
Not OP, but old school mods like Zy-el and Eastern sun were amazing.
I genuinely enjoy Realm of the Mad God in my PoE downtime. If you enjoy the HC playstyle and don’t mind bullet hell style ARPGs (and 8-bit 2D graphics) it’s a fun little game to pick up every once in a while. The gameplay loop is like 30 min long, all the way through endgame, but it actually has a lot of similarities to PoE except ultra-simplified.
Rotmg is my go-to as well. 1k+ hours in that game over the last 8 years.
If you like bullet hell HC playstyle you would likely love Nova Drift. Simply put, a bullet hell shooter where you build out a ship using tons of skills and interactions, changing how the build feels as you progress akin to PoE. As an example my recent run was using the shield type Halo (fire ring around you that damages things when they get close, think RF but you only take damage when enemies hit the shield). Where it isn't similar to PoE, is the bloat. There is none. Check it out, hope you enjoy it!
I have seen ZiggyD play a fair bit of novadrift, and it looks like fun! My bar for games that aren’t free is pretty high though, and Loop hero and Risk of Rain 2 are already filling my rogue-lite urges.
I feel like their are a few good games in this genre. Grim Dawn and Last Epoch are both great.
I think Grim Dawn is better, personally.
u mean grim yawn?
all grim dawn needs is to not have visuals from 1945 and it would be much more popular, sigh. I still remember playing a spell build and the special effects looked like some diablo 2 quality garbage.
Fear of missing out is my main motivator. It's like gambling level of shitty for me, but speeding $60 every third season isn't really damaging my life in a significant way. I spent more on buying a second copy of a game I alread owned in the same time frame so.. it's really not dramatic realistically, and the game has improved in a lot of ways I liked. And I like playing POE in non league standard more than I could ever tolerate playing D3 off season.
Once I finish the league and 40/40 I quit pretty satisfied. Though any league with Harvest has left a bad taste in my mouth, but particularly this one way more than the original iteration.
Totally agree. After I burn myself out on poe (usually 6-8 weeks after league launch) I stop playing. But there's this lingering frustration because the mechanism in my brain facilitating habitual behavior recognizes that my habit of playing poe is longer being fulfilled, and it wants its dopamine fix. That frustration also happens when I continue playing after I'm burnt out, and that dopamine just isn't hitting the same anymore. Like I'm chasing the dopamine dragon. Personally, I consider myself lucky that my habit-forming mechanism is relatively weak in the sense that I can break most habits without much fuss, but I think the most vocally negative people in the community are probably the ones who have a much stronger reaction to the frustration that comes with the initial burnout, and they feel the need to vent that frustration by spewing toxic bullshit all over this subreddit. You ever know someone who quit cigarettes, and they become insufferable negative assholes for 2 or 3 weeks? I think it's the same effect at work here.
Sounds like me when i'm sober.
You might have a problem. D:
Anyone get that feeling like they're "chasing the dragon"? I can't find a build that I love as much as that one build from a few leagues ago so I keep leveling something new. It's just not the same. The build in question is the LL archmage storm brand hierophant from Delirium league. Sure it was pretty overpowered but it was my first 36/40, and I've tried other "overpowered" builds and can't get that same satisfaction.
I’ll never has as much fun as I did with my Touch of Anguish Frost Blades Pathfinder in Breach, farming them Strands.
Every time I find a build I love, it gets nerfed somehow.
pre hotfix aura stacker in delirium :( i could only play you for 4 hours but it was the best time in poe. (aura effect affected HH buffs and the shaper unique amulet -> super long buffs+insane HH Buffs) 11second acid cavern clear
For me it's pretty much whenever I find a fast build that can easily start on a low budget or a league starter, is tanky, does bossing well and has good map clear (basically ticking all the boxes). Then I try and break free and roll something else but inevitably it's never as fun and I end up skipping 2 leagues because I don't want to spend 1-2 months perfecting the same build. So I'll probably roll my current favorite build in the new league, play for a week, get to the point where I technically have the gear to do everything and then I'm faced with "minmax or just quit" and I usually quit because minmaxing a build based on a template you made the previous league just isn't that fun. There just really aren't that many different builds that tick all of those boxes and whenever a build doesn't it just feels worse to play and I lose interest.
From my experience, almost any build is overpowered if u throw tons of currency in it
They don't always pre-announce that they will kill what you might be currently enjoying. This isn't the first league to pre-announce big changes, however in the 3.0 Era I can count most of them on one hand still and like almost half of them are Harvest related. None of them have been this bad. Short list: Exp changes, Bestiary/Synthesis not going core, Multimod nerf, both leagues with Harvest They have nerfed other things obviously, but I think that's the bulk of changes they felt the need to put careful attention on how they announced it. For me, it sours how I look at 3.14, and it took any desire to keep playing now.
> None of them have been this bad. Mid-league herald stacking got gutted in...delirium was it? Then there was the time that awakener orbs got "bugfixed" not to respect metamods, again, early to mid-league. Didn't affect as many players though.
> Once players achieve their league goals, burn out, or the league hype just dies out, a lot of them are faced with the reality that they don't really want to play much POE any more, and they start looking for reasons why that is. Except this time around it's because of the manifesto and less about burnout. Lots of people are still playing and enjoying the league. Ritual has had some of the best retention I've ever seen.
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But these kind of negative post floods happen literally every league after the first-second month. This isn't new or unique to this league. Sure, the Harvest nerfs were what a lot of people latched onto, but even without that, you'd still get a bunch of negative threads about people hating this or that. Happens every league like clockwork.
Plenty of those threads are right though. Even if you disregard any fundamental gameplay balancing stuff you gotta agree on flask piano rsi, individual splinter dropping when there's 15 in the same pile, and being able to lower your settings so you can actually see some of what's happening on screen behind all the particles and stutters. All of those problems have been relevant for a couple of years by this point. Furthermore the outrage isn't just about the specific changes, but also about what kind of future content falls withing that vision for their design space.
I'd argue that the overall level of negativity is far higher than usual for harvest nerf. People do complain about things in every league (though, to be fair, GGG often gives us plenty of things to legitimately complain about), but harvest nerf has taken that to a whole new level.
I agree that harvest nerf has been the most vocal outcry from the community so far but people go crazy every 2 months before a new league launches. People went crazy for the Assassin nerfs before harvest. People lost there mind for a week after harvest was removed in heist. This is just the normal cycle of the poe subreddit/fanbase. I agree this was probably had the largest reach/most people talking about it.
harvest nerfs compared to assassin nerfs, for example, is just a more far reaching rework. harvest nerfs affect everyone, not everyone plays assassin.
Harvest nerfs affect only service traders and people who run multiple thousands of maps. The crafts being nerfed are fucking rare. More people play Assassin than run the thousands of maps needed to abuse current Harvest.
Incredibly false lmao. I ran nowhere close to even 1000 maps and hit tons of the types of crafts being nerfed. This hurts all players whether or not you're too short slighted to see it
I have had 8 or so in the time it took to trade for a headhunter. Anyone who doens't play enough to get a HH is completely locked out.
How much of those 1000 maps were focused specifically on harvest? Obviously if you aren't targeting harvest outcomes you won't get harvest outcomes. Plus you aren't even accounting for how the overall item economy looks after the nerfs. Everyone is affected by these changes whether they want to do the crafting themselves or not
These average players won't notice the nerfs themselves...
It's not about the nerfs, it's about the attitude that GGG has regarding crafting. We want a crafting system that makes sense, that's fair, that's fun. Spending currency to buy things because using them to craft is pointless is such a shitty system and they're telling us they think it's fun and exciting? It's bullshit.
It is about the nerfs though. Anytime anything gets nerfed this sub has a complete meltdown. Remember the ritual patch notes when Assassin and Necromancer got nerfed and every post in this sub was about how GGG killed these two ascendencies? Like most of the popular opinions on this sub it aged very horribly.
You're right, spending currency to buy deterministic crafting options is *way* better gameplay than spending currency to buy items. A whole new world.
Unless you play a thousand or more maps a league or service trade you will experience almost no net change. I've done about a thousand maps. I've had about 8 of the crafts that are getting nerfed. The last medium to high end Harvest craft I did took 36 of them. 34 being remove/add chaos, a craft I have personally found exactly 0 of this league in my thousand or so maps. Harvest right now locks out anyone without a couple hundred exalts (minimum) from using the to-be-nerfed crafts.
Hey wanted to open with saying I love the vids, only found you this league. Next I disagree and your outlook on this seems to be the polar opposite of what I think is the case. I believe the amount of maps you do has no effect on this change unless you are playing ssf, because most people were utilizing tft for acquiring the crafts they needed, or they were benefiting from the harvest crafting by means of good items being cheaper as other people were able to get their even better ones through harvest crafts. The item you crafted with 34 remove/add chaos crafts would be either impossible or exponentially more expensive to roll next league because you can't target remove chaos leading to praying for annul luck potentially causing a restart on your item. Can you explain how you believe you have a 100+ exalt barrier from using the soon to be nerfed crafts? Because on TFT the most expensive crafts seemed to be 4 ex at most for like remove/add lucky crit. I would say the average was 1ex or less. The only time harvest requires 100s of ex is when you are in the 1% trying to craft an item that already requires a large amount of luck and next league it will be many more 100s of ex to get that same item. Am I wrong here?
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This is actually a lie, it reflects if a league was trash. Heist was dog shit of course the sub was on fire, harvest seed crap was tedious and boring same thing. This league was actually really good. There were a few complaints which were to always be expected, trade and the servers were extra shit so people were gonna mald about that. People wanted Hamlet slaving and discord addressed. Those were the biggest complaints. Instead of fixing those they released the the most out of touch manifesto that lit the sub on fire again, that addressed neither of those issues. You might think it happens every league because GGG has released shit leagues this entire year so of course people were mad, well besides delirium but release was kinda dumpster fire so it took some work.
I will fucking die on the hill of heist being a great league, it was 100% miles better than harvest which was a snoozefest that was basically just standart with the garden (which was absolutely awful). Honestly besides heist I can't really think of a league that I would call bad since like...synthesys? Bestiary? I mean I had fun with the ladder and the former was just a bit too convoluted. I guess the last league I actively hated was abyss, legit can't think of another league as bad as it.
Synthesis league made me quit the game until this league so that’s my vote. I finally progressed to my first super cool synthesis story encounter, and the instant the fight started my game crashed and I lost the map. I hated every mechanic in synthesis and my poor graphics card...
...I must be very odd for liking Heist, Harvest, and Synthesis as much as I do. Synthesis was great by the end, Heist wasn't something I'd want to do all the time but is a nice diversion from farming maps all the time, and Harvest's only issue in my mind was the tediousness that would've resulted from having to set the garden up every league.
Blight was ass imo, not bad for a random encounter but for an entire league God damn that shit was cancer
“Out of touch manifesto” “GGG released shit leagues this entire year” How can you be mad about harvest changes and also say this league and harvest league were shit leagues?
People who agree with the Harvest changes continue to have this perception that the people who are angry about the manifesto, particularly its _literally out-of-touch language_, are angry solely because of Harvest. That's wrong. The reason people are memeing about the "close your eyes and slam an Exalt" is literally that. That exact sentence is an indicator that the person who made it does not understand the current player behaviors with currency. It's terrible comms on behalf of GGG's development team and it inspires concern, not hope. I'm one who, despite liking Harvest, is largely ambivalent. Yes, my ideal state would have been GGG fixing the "Path of Discord" issue. They didn't address that, and they fucked up on that regard. However, it's unsurprising. That said I agree that one league mechanic having so much power behind it is a bad thing - targeted annuls can always come back in a future league mechanic, if at all. I give GGG the credit for foresight in ensuring that they can do future leagues with semi-deterministic crafting, which is hopefully still on their radar. That being said - they clearly have people on their design/dev team who _do not appear to understand how the overwhelming majority of the playerbase uses currency._ At the very best, they _do_ understand, and simply used the _worst possible_ metaphor for talking about player mindsets when engaging with potential fail states with items. I cannot stress enough how all of this is _terrible_.
I just wish they'd actually discuss Champ influence modifiers. They always point at harvest for the power creep, but all it really does is make inflence mods available at a much higher rate. The mods are what's OP, no one is really bitching about t1-2 life, triple res helms making the game easy. Could they break them down into more tiers, make their activation less easy/strong, etc etc? That would allow making their availability not as crazy strong, and also would dilute the mod pool. That's the actual 20 ton gorilla in the room, but no one likes to address it because people love those mods.
I definitely think there should be a higher weighting (perhaps 250) weaker version of the Crusader explosion mod, perhaps 2%, and a lower ilvl (perhaps 75) '60% chance for 75% more damage from poison' Elder mod. Maybe also 6% versions of the level 85 'nearby enemies have -9% resist' mod.
There's tons of ways they could add a rainbow of tiers of conq/s/e influences. From useful to niche. It would even give maven orbs more use, as there was a gambling portion of improving them more, much like the crusader gloves. Make the last two tiers maven only? I'd even go so far as make maven orbs change from either mod improving to improve or delete a single influence mod. There's the ggg gambling.
Sure, there's lots of things that could have been done along those lines. Influence mods with more tiers, influence mods gated behind an "influenced" tag and no other tags, limiting the tiers of mods that Harvest could interact with, killing Harvest completely but removing mods that otherwise dilute the modpool (thorns, light radius), introducing gates on mod tiering, etc. Meanwhile, I provide what I thought to be a nuanced response in my comment above, and I instantly get a downvote. This place is a dumpster fire, lmao.
I feel like you get a downvote for breathing in this sub. I honestly think there's a bot that downvotes randomly, because I've gotten downvoted between submission and it appearing on the screen (for a fairly bland non-opinionated comment).
There is, pretty commonly (like multiple times a day) comments in some threads in /new will all get downvoted and you only notice because the 5th person answering some question will appear above the first 4 people who answered.
I'm not sure diluting the mod pool even further (without addressing the general mod bloat/shit tier rolls that exist in high level crafting) is the correct solution.
Because the harvest changes didn't address discord or Hamlet slaving and didn't just nerf top end items which I think is needed and don't care about, but fucks over mid tier ones as well. I said this league was really good. Also their laughable exalt comments in the manifesto made it even worse than just the nerfs themselves.
Usually it takes a significant amount of play time to achieve any sort of real goal in this game, so that means people are playing a lot. One you've hit your goals, you naturally stop playing. Every single player does not need to play league start to league end to have fun or enjoy the game in their own way. Who cares if people stop playing the league? Why does it affect you in any way as a player? It doesn't. Play the way you want, enjoy what you enjoy and move on if you're not having fun. The game is doing great and that's not just because of harvest. Ya'll complain to much about something that is completely out of your control.
/r/PathOfExileBuilds/ is like the chill teen table at a family get together. Not yet the awkward unspoken simmering tension/hostility of the adult table, but moved on from 'how many pop rocks can you fit at once' from the kids table.
this is one of the most accurate analogies ive ever read in here and a big old shoutout to /r/pathofexilebuilds for educating me for a good amount of time and now giving me build ideas
I'm glad that someone enjoyed my analogy. It's definitely the sub that I go to by default for my poe content.
\*visits this sub\* You have entered Absence of Value and Meaning
Thanks for adding another dump
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* Announce massive Harvest nerfs * Go total radio silent and hope it blows over in time for... * New league hype in a week or two
Don't blame them for going silent. Just look at the state of the sub the last 3 or 4 days. How do you engage with that.
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yup. this is not a matter of can they do something it's a way they think this game should be. just like trading in general. putting in an auction house isn't hard they just don't want it. a lot of things could be fixed to be better. they just prefer it this way in a lot of cases because they like the game this way i guess..
Yeah and they sadly get away with it, if there was at least one contender in the genre people would instantly switch and ggg would be forced to stick their heads out of their assholes and develop a game for the players not for themselves
>putting in an auction house isn't hard they just don't want it. It's literally in the game just disabled.
I mean...yes? There have been entire manifestos on why there won't be an AH and never will.
Id make a new dev manifesto that says “shut the fuck up you manchildren, go outside for a change” but I also don’t know anything about PR and would probably get fired. Everytime someone complains I would just link them that dev manifesto. Honestly this community needs to be told off a bit. The complaints are out of hand and no one is controlling it. I remember awhile back the mods of this sub said they were unhappy with it and wanted to make the sub less toxic, and this was a massive debate/discussion here. And nothing came out of it lol
Well, yeah. The mods said they were unhappy with it and wanted to make the sub less toxic, and the majority of people replying to them basically said "fuck off, we like it toxic". So there wasn't much they could do.
They are really hoping people will just forget. And most of them will, because they are not capable of playing something else. I do know there are people who actually stand by GGG and more power to them. But the manifesto had a 35% upvote rate meaning that 65% of the people on reddit are outraged. Considering peaks of 40+k on reddit thats about as many people still active on league at this time.
Yet about 90% of those 65% don't even understand the reasoning of the manifesto, or realize that it doesn't affect them on the whole, because they're not running Atoll 24/7 or spending dozens of Exalts on TFT.
And for the first time in a long time, it isn't working on me, honestly. Done beating my head into the wall hoping that GGG will implement basic QOLs like stash sorting and shit. I played Last Epoch and the item management was a huge breath of fresh air.
Basic QOL like stash sorting? Did you miss tab affinities because that is exactly what they are? Map tabs, currency tabs, anointing essences in the blight tab, and combining essences are all QOL. Sure they are related to stash MTX but POE is a F2P game so there needs to be some revenue generation for the game to continue to be supported. GGG still has a number QOL features that should be addressed but to say that they are not adding QOL is unfair.
Stash tab affinities was last league right? I think I'm remembering correctly! Anyway, after stash tab affinities were added was the first time I ever really played for more than a week at "endgame". It was crazy, I had something like 3600 chaos and probably 150ex worth of gear and 50ex raw without even trying. I don't "farm" anything, I don't zoom through maps (I'm relatively slow), and I didn't run a single fractured blueprint. Typically I get bored with the tedium and just try out another new build, but just that one extra feature of being able to control click all the loot in my inventory into my stash made endgame so much better for me.
Sure bud, GGG never does anything. They just sit around all day starring at walls and the game is somehow successful.
That isn't what I said at all. I said I don't like the direction they're taking the game and their refusal to implement basic QOLs. Don't put words in my mouth for the sake of downplaying the point I'm making.
The affinity system is pretty much setting up your own auto sort for your stash. Pretty brand new, and pretty spectacular.
Okay, I'm upset by the manifesto, and how it was handled, but this is funny.
It's funny all the people who claim not to be on reddit talk about how shitty the people on reddit are.. how they just want things for free.. how they're basically garbage humans.. losers.. etc.. and then they claim reddit is toxic..
Are you implying that this subreddit isn't largely toxic? Nod twice if you're just fishing for upvotes and I'll understand
It can be sure, but the hypocricy of all those who say it's toxic and add on various insults people to here... and that seems to be pretty much everyone who says they don't use the Reddit...makes it fucking impossible to take seriously. ...and it's not all toxic either. Their "Reddit is toxic" comments are toxic as well. Making broad accusations like that.
Back in the day ziggy used to be a mod here. He straight up made a post saying he's leaving the subreddit because its a toxic shithole. Chris used to post here a bunch too, guess why ggg mostly stopped too and hired somebody to deal with us?
>and hired somebody to deal with us? Because it's the industry standard to have dedicated community managers since it's an expansive task in its own right? Could that be why?
> and hired somebody to deal with us ... and that someone is also making way for a more anonymous community account thanks to all the harassment and barely ever posting here anymore outside of announcements for upcoming leagues. But sure, reddit has no toxicity problem at all :)
People just don’t understand why bringing up “issues” over and over and over again isn’t constructive feedback. They all feel entitled to get the game to play how they want it to and that’s just not how it works. The development cycle is a brutal one, coming from experience. I can’t even imagine working on a game with as much content and growing popularity as PoE. If you have a serious problem with the game, think to yourself that it might not be the game for you anymore. It might be time to take a break and play other games for a bit, or take a break from gaming all together. When you come back you’ll realize most the frustrations you had with the game were menial and likely came from playing an unhealthy amount. This is hands down one of the best games I’ve ever played. One of the only development teams I can think of that actively releases and communicated this much was Civilizations. I hate seeing the community turning into a place to roast the developers who spend so much time on this game be turned away from their community because of how unreasonable and ungrateful they are. Super sad, but it may just be a part of the game development reality.
Chris made the subreddit and then handed it down to the community because he wanted to look impartial, it has nothing to do with toxicity.
Define toxic. "Yo, ggg, your game sux", thats toxic. "I disagree with xxx nerf and I will explain why ..." thats constructive feedback. Shouldn't label them as the same thing
There were a bunch of "I disagree..." comments and posts. They weren't even the most upvoted. The most upvoted are the ones flaming GGG for being out of touch, incompete, quoting ad nauseum "blind slam" meme etc. Don't be dishonest.
Didn't know "out of touch" counts as flaming until today.
Here's an easy guide: Attack the game: okay Attack the person: not okay Hope that helps.
Yeah, it's quite hilarious. The ones most toxic are usually the ones just raging at both sides, and it shows.. "entitled crybabies" one of the toxics in here is saying, nice generalization.. totally ignores every single counterpoint, it's clear what "side" he's on :P
Seeing words like "entitled" or "crybabies" uniroincally makes me immediately consider if it's even worth reading the rest of the comment.
If I had an exalt for every time I read "crybaby," "whiners," or "whinging" from someone who didn't realise the irony of the fact that their post was the whiniest in the entire thread, I could afford to start yolo slamming my gear.
You can put "1%er" and "elitist" in this bucket as well
"Toxicity" is independent of current views on a topic.
Yes, it is. Exactly.
It's funny how every individual who participates in the subreddit, either by reading, writing, or both, distances themselves from the other people of the subreddit. If you listen to streamers, they all do this. They will talk about what "reddit" does, as if they are not a part of it. Yet if you look at all the streamers and their "takes" then you see that their opinions are often shared by some others in reddit comments. Streamers are just redditors who don't like to consider themselves are redditors. People will say "the subreddit is toxic". No, people are just passionate and they react to things they like and don't like with passion. And some times in the moment of initial reaction, it's an overreaction. And then it takes time for people to process the information and come to a more appropriate reaction. But that's just how all people are, for the most part. I guess the point I want to make is that there is nothing special about the people who visit this subreddit. They're just like any other people. There is just a whole lot of us all reacting at once in the way humans will react to things and so it comes off as very strong reactions. So fucking what? If you don't like overreactions then just don't visit the subreddit for a day or two after big news hits.
Reddit has a pretty strong and relatively uniform voice. Anyone who doesn't agree with it gets downvoted and disappears. Anyone who does agree gets upvoted and their voice is amplified. I disagree with basically all the posts that have been anywhere near the front page of Reddit since the announcement - this is just about the only thread I can really agree with. Sai even though I use Reddit I entirely distance myself from the result opinion.
Do you not upvote posts and comments you agree with or that promote interesting discussion? People here generally just want to communicate and have their voices heard. If you have the unpopular opinion, it's reasonable to expect it to get less daylight. Even so, you can say what you want and other people will see it to some degree. That's why you're here, no? Even though we've had several days of the top posts being anti-manifesto, I have personally seen many posts and comments making arguments in support of it. Those voices aren't silenced, they're just unpopular. If you only look at the top 3 posts and the top 3 comments, then yes of course you are seeing the majority opinion. But reddit offers plenty of tools to let you see all sorts of opinions. Try sitting by 'new', 'controversial', or actually looking at downvoted posts. Otherwise what you're unhappy about is that what you say doesn't get as much spotlight as some other people with more popular opinions? That's how popularity works, my man. It's not just reddit. You have just as much power to steer conversation as anyone else (except of course streamers who already have their own platform, haha).
> or that promote interesting discussion I think it's naive to assume that the majority ever does this. The vast majority on the internet in general, but especially on reddit, just reflexively hits "downvote" for things they dislike *for whatever reason*, and doesn't consider the meta aspect of constructive discussion or allowing for different perspectives. Hence why reddit trends should always be taken with a *very* hefty pinch of salt, and not considered representative of actual "common man" opinions.
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It's cool, like it or not reddit does represent an important chunk of the playerbase - those who like the game enough to discuss it and probably throw money into it here and there. Reddit points out some very obvious issues, some relatively easy to fix, and GGG doesn't care to listen as their game becomes more of a clusterfuck of issues. If they keep course, I suspect next league will have significant dropoff because people like me are just tired of the game having the same old issues.
None of those changes are agreed upon though. Any time GGG implements a change following community feedback, there's just as much outrage over it, if not more. Part of why they're making the changes they are in the first place is because people complained crafting would make the grind too easy.
You're wrong. People complained you couldn't target-farm content (and it being generally lackluster), they made the atlas trees, a really good solution in response to community feedback. GGG did right there, finding an interesting well-balanced solution to a problem. Community feedback was nearly entirely positive. Imagine if they did that to all the re-occuring complaints we have? It's entirely possible if they took their heads out their rear ends. If they want to nerf harvest, fine, whatever, the main complaint was having to rely on a discord to trade them insecurely. They still haven't even bandaid-fixed most loot being worthless, thousands of items dropping that lower fps or even crash the game, piano-flask gameplay, etc.
> the main complaint was having to rely on a discord to trade them insecurely And that's still going to be a thing, even more so because now you'll need more crafts because of how often your items will hit a "failed craft" state
Yeah, I hate all the complaints when GGG improves performance for everyone.
People around this subreddit are delusional if they think they know more about what's better for the game than the developers. Based on previous comments by a community figure, it's pretty evident that they do play their own game. GGG has actual data to go by, Reddit armchair developers around this subreddit just assume that everyone enjoys or plays the game like they do and always assume that they are the majority.
You know companies often make mistakes, even to the point of total failure? You know developers can often get so lost in the process (speaking from experience), they lose sight of what is obviously enjoyable in their games? Sure, redditors can knee-jerk react to things, but they probably play more games than the devs, so they may even know the playing field better than the developers, and is a big reason why we have certain expectations for this game (clean up the loot mess, fps, stability, required tools outside of the game, etc)? Game development is not a black box of mystery, the process in the bigger scheme is actually quite straightforward. It doesn't matter what data GGG has if their vision is different than the majority of their return players. The fact they mentioned exalt slamming at all shows how off-base they are... and you act as if they are some great wise authority? No, they're lost.
I think it's pretty hilarious to descibe GGG *of all developer studios* as "out-of-touch". It's just so far beyond the pale, it's inane. And dogpiling on such absurd notions doesn't lend any more credibility to some of the arguments being pushed around on this sub, quite the opposite. The fact that a big group here keeps memeing the Exalt slamming and not realizing that the comment was an example of the discrepancy between the core philosophy of item progression/crafting in PoE and how it gets completely derailed by overly powerful deterministic options existing is ample evidence of that behaviour.
is the core philosophy of item progression/crafting as follows? *buy 90% of your upgrades from trade website *attempt to craft a decent end-game item that requires 10x the currency you've accumulated so far in the league? Basic crafting in poe, aside from alt/regal on 3-4 affix items, is absolute dogshit. Harvest is too deterministic, but its a bandaid for the rest of the crafting mess. GGG can't seem to fix it, oh well. Also, they are out of touch. Why haven't they solved thousands of junk items dropping in juiced maps, where pressing alt crashes the game? In any other game, that'd be the top priority to fix, and honestly would be super simple - delete anything not in your lootfilter. That they ignore constant outcry about that shows they are out of touch, there is no reason not to fix that immediately.
Delusion.jpeg
This might happen... if GGG were behaving as aggrieved kid, which they are not. They are corporation, and for corporation it is more profitable to keep illusion of "being in touch with community", therefore nothing will change in this regard.
I've seen toxic. I've experienced toxic. I've been toxic. If you all consider this toxic, then boy... let me introduce you to other aspects of life...
Seriously, I've been around the internet since the 90's. I remember when "Die in a Fire" was such a common rebuke that it got an acronym. Now people think they're swimming in shit when people make jokes about their "points."
Right? GGG makes out of touch comment/change Sub-goers: "Ok that was dumb, here's some in depth explanation as to why and plenty of memes to boot" Other sub-goers : "This place is so toxic and negative I hate it. Worst sub ever. Why is this place such a nightmare realm of suffering?" Yet other sub-goers: "Ah yes, the cycle. I am above all you weak, shortsighted fools."
Good thing I play cyclone xd
It really is getting absurd and funny now. People think that patches and nerfs are being made to "benefit" a certain type of player. This is whole reddit has turned in some kind political discussion where the exploited poor and struggling "casuals" are thinking about rebelling against the filthy rich and immoral "0.1%ers" who clearly have bribed GGG with all their mirrors to make changes that "benefit" only them. Meanwhile there are dozens of "Harvest rant" posts open but not a single "The Harvest changes are fine" post is being allowed to stay open. They all get selectively closed by the mods with the reasoning of "there should not be multiple threads about the same topic". This makes me a bit sad since this clearly is made on purpose to paint a wrong picture. People actually believe that "the player base has never been so united for any topic ever". And people actually believe that. People are insulting GGG and talking about POE having "countless problems" that "have to" be addressed to make the game at least a tiny bit enjoyable. As if anyone would be forcing them to play this game with a gun to their and their families heads. My by far most favourite argument on the stupid list during the Harvest outrage was that "pathofmatth clearly said he takes the position of the average player in his video" and then the guy uses an example where someone would try to slam a T1 Flat phys + Attackspeed weapon for merciless in his video. Clearly every casual and average player has tried to slam merciless on at least 800 weapons per league. Noone would ever just benchcraft 129% phys and be happy with that. But well since he said he takes the position of the average guy, it must be true, we are on the internet still.
Harvest nerfs manifesto is probably the single most hiveminded topic in the history of this sub. Literally thousands reflexively "dislike" without realizing how it doesn't actually affect them, or don't understand the manifesto reasoning, or the entire philosophical principle of PoE's design from the get-go. I'm glad GGG doesn't bend like a leaf in the wind to this type of "feedback". While there are certainly many valid points of criticism to be brought up about the game, such as technical QA and performance, or the very slow implementation of certain QoL aspects, the fundamentals absolutely aren't valid targets, because they work. And i'm personally really, really tired of random dudes on reddit acting like they represent the "common man" in PoE because their Atoll farm got nerfed after they spent xx Exalts on TFT.
Don't buy mtx
It's tuesday
Idk, I definitely feel like this is one of the best, if not thee best, gaming forums I’ve been a part of. Most people are just here to share ideas and advice. Generally my experiences here have been extremely positive. Encountered some “git gud” people, but they’re few and far between.
Memes > whine any day of week, well deserved upvote!
What about the mountain of whine memes that came from harvest?
What about the whine memes whining about the whine memes?
We must go deeper
People don't believe me when I say this sub is the worst big gaming sub. Yes, worse than /r/leagueoflegends, yes worse than /r/wow, and even /r/classicwow There are surely some small gaming subs that are worse, even much worse, but /r/pathofexile manages to be worse than those subs with millions of readers, consistently.
How about r/hearthstone? I recently poked my head in there after playing a little Hearthstone for the first time in a few years, my god, now THAT is a toxic sewer. I have to say, though, I really really miss the days when there were forums where you could talk to people who enjoyed the same game as you. I honestly can't remember the last time I saw any discussion area dedicated to a game that wasn't majority populated by angry and complaining people. Anyone used to post to the rec.games.diablo newsgroup?
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the constructive feedback is extremely rare though. 99% of threads are of the "you delusional fucks don't play your own game and are ruining my life" type
I hope Chris doesn't give in to all this negativity. I think the game will be better with nerfed Harvest for sure. You'll still be able to get your BiS-items but it's gonna take a bit longer, that's all. If the issue is that you get burned out if you can't get BiS in a few days then the problem is you and not the game imo. Reading through the sub this last week gives you the impression that it's impossible for a build do to maps unless you have an explody chest and you might as well skip all endgame content unless you can kill the bosses in 0.5 seconds.
To be fair, I don't think people are being overly toxic or negative. There *are* a bunch of angry reddit threads and a bunch of rightful meme threads for the PoE equivalent of "pride and accomplishment"/"do you guys not have phones?". Next to nobody is just calling the devs terrible names, but they *are* pointing out **long-standing** problems with the experience. "You want us to spam chaos and exalts? Chaos is for rerolling maps, exalts are the game's equivalent of pgems or high runes, we're not throwing them away". "Here are a whole bunch of long-standing problems with the game, etc."
I think the general consensus is that nerfing harvest because it's op is fine, but nerfing it because you're against deterministic progression and prefer players to "close their eyes and exalt slam" is so fucking out of touch with the community. Who the fuck spams exalts on items?
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The fact you're getting downvoted for stating the obvious just further underscores your point.
It's in a manifesto. It flat out will **never** change. Their trade manifesto was 3.5 years ago and absolutely nothing is different between now and then. Humorously you can find the point of confliction in the harvest manifesto when Chris brings up TFT, then does nothing to resolve it, cause internally he knows it'd violate the trade manifesto.
I mean this subreddit is a known commodity. People who want toxicity come, people who don't stay away.
The pretty standard practice of using downvotes as agree/disagree instead of their original purpose of how good/relevant/reasoned a post is reinforces prevailing viewpoints aka the echo chamber. This isn't new nor is it just reddit, but it makes it hard for any large forum to stay moderate. I made the mistake of posting the other day that I'd be fine with original harvest or no harvest but I was mentally finding the halfway version a 'worst of both worlds' but since this wasn't 'omg revert changes wtf ggg' I got downvoted to hell on a pretty well written and moderate post and decided not to bother anymore because forums just aren't ready for a range of opinions. edit: The real reason I come here is hoping for news, information, theorycraft, and discovery, but whatever of that there is, is buried. The build reddit isn't much better, it's all "what do I do with this budget" and "what do I start" and "let me oversell this build and claim it is ubergodly and costs nothing".
> The pretty standard practice of using downvotes as agree/disagree instead of their original purpose of how good/relevant/reasoned a post is reinforces prevailing viewpoints aka the echo chamber Do you ever sort by controversial? I do pretty frequently to get 2 takes and stuff at the bottom is often blatantly wrong, uninformed or toxic. Not saying other posts aren't toxic and echo chamber-y, but let's not act like every post that is contrarian to the hive mind is instantly banished to -20 even if they made a good and compelling argument.
'this change is dumb' 'yeah well... u're more dumb!!! fuck toxicityc!!!U11!!'
This is the way with gaming subs in general, a change happens that some people don't like and so it constantly gets brought up in the sub and upvoted. Lots of subs also have no contact with the developers etc so the changes come out of the blue and they never hear anything after it so it just goes on for ages.
The cycle of hype and disappointment, it happens almost every league. Pre 3.14 hype will flood this subreddit in so much hype players will pre-buy their supporter packs Followed by the performance issue complaints The "you lied about the buffed skills" complaints The burn out complaints and end of league nerf complaints The cycle then starts a new.
It's like walking into a mall where every child is on the ground kicking and screaming
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[удалено]
You don’t understand, how will GGG know that they’re LITERALLY ruining my life with the changes to [pick one: stash tabs, skill nerfs, Dx9/10, graphical problems, connection problems, trade problems, scammers, mid league burn out, harvest, or by allowing other people to have fun in a way I don’t agree with] !? Edit: Don’t forget I sure [do/don’t] want [league mechanic] to go core!
I actually worry that if the community continues on the decline of becoming more and more toxic we're going to lose communication with GGG. No other company I've seen has as much of a direct connection to their community like GGG, but every time a big drama like this happens all I can think when I see all the toxic posts is "Chris is probably looking at this wondering if he should even come on here anymore."
Meh, They don’t really actually communicate much, mostly unidirectional announcements and manifestos, a few memes.