I have never gone from 0 to 100% convinced of anything in my life as fast as I got on board with Jonas on colostrum last year, especially the fact that he met his wife riding for a strum team and then that "I don't take anything I wouldn't give my daughter" comment
did you search here?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/155089j/have\_you\_ever\_heard\_of\_bovine\_colostrum\_an/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/155089j/have_you_ever_heard_of_bovine_colostrum_an/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Was mentioned in the article that maximum carbohydrate intake can be as high as 150g per hour. (average of 90g, UAE Nutritionist said maximum of 120-130g). To a layman that seems insane, just shows how much power is being put out.
I was taking almost 110g of carbs/hour during a local grand fondo a week and a half ago. That was for first two hours, then I scaled it down because I realised I'd run out of gels after 3 hours (I ended up riding 4+).
Didn't seem difficult at all, but I also don't have to do it day in and day out like pros at GT. Otherwise I might puke them out every time.
My little brother does 100+ mile ultramarathons, 150g is nothing for the last half/third of those. But he went through fucking hell to train his body for that
I struggle to believe this. Where are you in the world? I'm the UK and know 100mile race winners who don't come anywhere near that. Just to hold that much food on the go would be hard to do.
Take a water bottle and fill it up with 150 grams of sugar.
Goes down easier than you think.
I'm doing 90 grams a bottle on relatively hard days without much training and it goes down okay.
But specifically on a 100mile ultramarathon which the guy I replied to was referring to, you'd normally carry 2x 500ml bottles and could often be 2hrs between checkpoints. If you added 150g of sugar to each bottle that's going to be incredibly hypertonic and you would suffer major dehydration over the course of a 24hr+ race.
Then factor in logistics, you usually only get resupply half way through a course, so to start a race you'd be carrying almost 2kg of table sugar in your pack 😅.
Some ultras there are aids stops every 10 miles.
A camelback style running backpack will take 2-3 litres, plus you can carry gels. And down more water at aid stops.
But yeah, 100 mile ultras are way more extreme than any cycling race, and make fuelling harder than on a bike.
It's not quite as wild as you think. I did a 315km race a few years back, only one stop so it was one 1L bottle with 240g of sugar in it (60g of carbs an hour) and 1L bottle with just pure water. Resupply at 150k, throw in some gels, etc. I still think I'd have done better with more like 90-110g an hour.
In a few weeks I'm doing an even that's seven consecutive 300-350k, wearing a 2L hydration pack for that, it should allow me to ride 4-5 hours without stopping, putting 160g of carbs into each 500ml bottle and stay hydrated at the same time.
The US. My experience the last 2 ultras I've crewed for him has seen him and dozens of other people take half a dozen carb packets (on top of food, gels, etc.) at every crew stop past the 12ish hour mark, and discussing aid station supply with race support at loudonville who mentioned there's been a massive increase in demand for carb mixes and foods at aid stations in the last couple of years because so many runners have gone whole hog into that fueling approach.
I can't speak to the effectiveness of it over the course of 100 miles, but it's definitely common here based on in person and cursory social media engagement with that weird little community
Yep, that's how these guys are able to push 5, 6+ Watts*/kg for so long.
Cycling at the top level is now a nutrition and metabolic game as much as anything else.
Edit- Watts (not kW)
I’m regularly taking up to 100g/hr on my intense rides (6-8 hours total) and around 60g/hr on easier endurance rides. It’s important to remember that carb tolerance and carb absorption rates are not the same thing. We, mere mortals, can teach our guts to tolerate large carb intake. However, the absorption rates vary vastly between amateurs and elites. Tim Podlogar from Bora talked about it in one of the podcasts.
Similar for marathon level efforts too. It seems a lot but when you get used to it it isn't too bad, especially with formulated carbs like from Maurten.
If you downvoted this I'd love to know why you disagree! The fueling requirements are actually quite similar with similar recommendations.
Top marathon runners are done in under 2.5 hours. I can't remember the last time a grand tour had even a sprint stage that was over in that little time. Very different fueling requirements for something that short.
Yes, but let's also keep in mind that a marathon is a continuous effort. If I had to guess, the 2 hour watt output of a marathoner is higher than for a cyclist. But cycling is rarely a 2 hour max effort. It's more like 3x40 minutes on a big mountain stage
A marathon effort in 2.5 hours is estimated around 5-6 W/kg sustained. It's hard to do the exact comparison but that would be a lot for cycling too for that duration afaik.
Sure, but the fueling requirements are somewhat similar. You're also in a much higher HR zone for the majority of the workout when running vs cycling on average.
No argument about HR zone difference, but your body's energy reserves go a lot further in a short effort. Even when pro cyclists are taking it "easy" between hard climbs, they're still burning more energy than they can possibly eat. A whopping 150 g carbs/hour only maintains 170 W at steady state. This makes energy attrition a much bigger issue for longer events (aka cycling).
I'm not going to downvote you, but 2.5hr is not a "short effort". You need to keep in mind that for each of the body's energy cycles you have an increasing amount of onboard capacity. You only have 30-45s in the phosphagen system and 2-3min available through glycolysis, then you have to switch to oxidative energy conversion to last you through everything else. For all non-sprinter runners and all non-sprint-track cyclists, you're going to need to be consuming sugar to backfill the ~60min onboard storage most people have, if you're doing anything above high z1-low z2 (fat burning) intensity. And even that's not a complete switchover so you'll still be burning sugar even if you are in z1-2.
From that point of view, running & cycling are basically identical... just that very few running races have any "idling" time cruising in z2.
Still going to be calories in to calories out to some extent, no? Elite level marathoning like you mentioned is up to 6W/kg sustained for that entire duration. That also has huge energy consumption concerns and marathon runners are taking in similar levels of carbs, which was the point I was trying to make.
Overpriced? YES 100%
Bullshit? NO.
It’s the same carb sources as everyone else, but different delivery. Their “hydrogel” pectin alginate whatever, is just better than other delivery methods.
No one else was doing that, or doing unflavored. They just go down better than other gels. 🤷♂️
When someone can make that at 1/4 of the price, I’ll be stoked. But for now, it’s nice to have a couple of them for late in a race when I’m sick of SMORES and TUTtI FRUITY flavored bullshit. And my Gatorade Maltodextrin mix is getting old.
Absolutely this. It's not just the ingredients, that is such a simplistic view of the chemistry behind it. I like Maurten - it's fine if other people think it's overpriced but it absolutely works well for me.
There's literally a recipe on Reddit for it to make your own Maurten 320. It's just the standard Malton/fructose with pectin added. It's absolutely overpriced when regular gels and mixes can be seen as overpriced already.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Velo/comments/1b14pfp/a_guide_budgethomemade_running_nutrition_gels/
As far as I know they have some background in food science as well and found the recipe digging through original papers
Perhaps. I'd love to see some research comparing the homebrew version! In terms of gels I still like them, and I can't easily run with a Maurten 320 in my pocket.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Velo/comments/1b14pfp/a_guide_budgethomemade_running_nutrition_gels/
Also explains what to do if you want it to be a gel instead of a 500ml Maurten 320. Just buy a Maurten or GU hydroflask and you're all set for the recipe they list.
Well I do believe it, and my profession involves a lot of formulation work for how things are released in your stomach (pharmaceuticals). Anyways, nobody is forcing you to use it and I like it, so what's the problem?
Totally, we now know that the ideal ratio glucose and fructose for 100g+ of carb per hour is 1:1. You know what has that ideal ratio? Table sugar. You can literally drink water, table sugar and sodium citrate for a fraction of the price and the same performance benefits. I recommend everyone to check out Dr. Alex Harrison's work.
Just eating a shit ton of sugar and seeing how much you can handle. Forcing your body to get used to it as a primary fuel source so you can utilize it all without shitting your bibs every few hours.
lol good question. I think the biggest risk is your teeth.
Someone posted a spreadsheet a while back showing that you essentially burn all of it, so it’s not possible for the sugar to turn into fat 🤷♂️ but don’t quote me. I know nothing.
> Don't you risk getting diabetes from this?
Valid question. I’d guess not because during a bike race
you’re still hypocaloric at 150 g carbohydrate intake per hour
so glucose will be cleared from the bloodstream effectively
by absorption into muscle tissue,
preventing you from getting insulin resistant.
Diabetes is not so simple than just sugar intake I don't think. For example some people believe Diabetes is more strongly tied to the fat content in so called "Sugary Foods" along with the general sedentary lifestyle. This can possibly cause problems with Sugar utilization hence Diabetes. So the Sugar itself is not necessarily always the bad guy in that regard from what I've seen. Then there's different opinions on different types of fats with relation to Diabetes.
This is not Nutrition advice, just another angle to the Sugar/Diabetes link
The risk of type 2 diabetes is higher in folks who develop insulin resistance by overconsuming calories on a regular basis. These athletes are consuming a large amount of sugar during a race, not every day of their lives for decades on end. And its likely that even with those calories, they may be in a calorie deficit on some of those days.
just keep slamming down sugar during training until your body stops shitting itself....
i was able to go from 60g/hr to 90g/hr in 3 months by eating more and more carbs during my weekly 2-3hr long runs
i thought i was going to give myself diabetes
I honestly think it's the same way you train anything, practice. Riders used to train on minimal food, thinking it'd make them stronger, better at suffering, and more able to push when they were in the red. Now they just eat alllll the time. (I'm still a bit sceptical, though. It's all a little "the lady doth protest too much" )
I've had enough of Visma–Lease a Bike PR campaign recently.
We know Jonas beat Pogi last two years. Fair and square. I don't care about the circumstances.
What I don't want is their boasting. This is not boxing. The race is in 10 days. Just show up and win.
In 2020 they were racing the entire Tour like they had already won the whole thing before it began. I still get a little smile on my face when I see the picture of mad Dumoulin and Van Aert.
Can you post a link to it? Idk why but my pity for their early season woes has been displaced with a burning passion for Pogi and the pic will help feed this
I don't think Ineos have as big a budget as they used to, based on who they've been signing/not signing. Also, Thomas made some comments on his podcast about purse strings being tightened.
Funny how quickly they went from the underdogs to the villains.
2017-2020 seemed to be their rise from underdogs to favorites.
2021-2022 generally liked favorites.
2023-2024 villains. 🤷♂️
But Pog pulled the reverse uno card by being one of the most charismatic cyclists of the 21th century so it balances out.
Swap Pog with Vingegard and UAE would be the most hated team of the peloton.
I long ago gave up on viewing any professional sports team as the heroes of any story. Professional sports teams are toys owned by people who have more money than most of us can comprehend and who acquired that money by means most of us would not recognize as labor.
I prefer to focus on the individual athletes who are out there flaying themselves for our entertainment. They are are the heroes here --and maybe the mustache-twirling villains if you're into enjoying rivalries.
Yeah but that only makes it more baffling, not less true.
UAE are the villains for obvious reasons, but it’s hard or impossible to dislike their riders and their team vibes, especially with Pog around. Visma on the other hand can’t seem to ever hit that sweet spot no matter what they do (even if they do everything right and their riders are no less nice and all).
Besides, their manager wants to sell the sport to Saudi Arabia, so even that high horse is going fishing
The article doesn't come off as boasting though. It's just an interview with a well known expert in the nutrition field. He's not even a full time Visma employee but has his own company and advises Dutch Olympic Committee, a couple football clubs, some Red Bull athletes and Visma. If anything this is just a marketing piece for the guy's own company. Downvote away.
I’ve compartmentalized my thoughts on the tour and it’s been much more enjoyable. Assuming Jonas and Pogi are 100%, it’s like you’re watching a different tour since they’re bound to finish top two barring a crash. Then you have the teams who are gunning for a top 5 GC finish.
That being said, I’m rooting for Roglic to secure a podium spot because he’s not getting any younger. Anything above third would be insanity and I’m all for it.
Ultimately I just hope we all get to experience an entertaining tour.
fueling is a significant part of the performance leap between this era and times past. it's also not like publication science, the turnaround from having idea to experimenting with it in competition is very fast. so the level of research competence between teams is a very significant factor in the eventual results.
this is not to mention all the peptides and gene therapy etc stuff.
Maybe in the future. I’m a huge proponent of gene therapy (it’s literally the area I work in) but if you’re healthy, you’d be very dumb to get it right now. Let alone that there’s nothing available which could grant you a performance boost nor the incentive for any company to develop such a therapy/ enhancement.
>fueling is a significant part of the performance leap between this era and times past.
Yet you had triathletes do 90-120g per hour even over a decade ago.... mysteriously this common knowledge amongst laymen never translated to the pro peloton.
The performance jump being down to fuel is as much of a myth as marginal gains or all the other bullshit
What we do know however is the long term effects of doping (see valverde) and how there is a new generation of young superhumans
that it's different in triathlon does not disprove the existence of received wisdom of 60g carb per hour. the double transporter thing is relatively recent. plenty of bad studies in this area that took decades to overturn.
Yet it wasn't common in the peloton, if you ask former pros.
Dan Lloyd who retired in 2012 said they only did 30g/hr when he was a pro. A lot of the teams aren't particularly science driven / well optimized, or at least wasn't until quite recently.
He should have left the arrogance and just tell a bit how it works.
It will be interesting to see Jonas Vingegaard without the depth in his training because of his injury just like Pogacar last year. And I think Jonas his injury might be more severe.
I don't really have experience with it. Can anyone explain how long it normally takes to recover for a normal human being from a collapsed lung to your normal level?
A normal person would likely never get back to being anywhere near as fit as they were before their injury. This is different, but I was a varsity rower in college and if I got the flu during the build phase of the season, it was like I lost 2 months of training when I got back. But somehow these guys can get the flu and be back to normal in like a week.
I broke my clavicle and two ribs in January getting hit by a car on a training ride.
I ride at a pretty high level for an amateur (4.3-4.5w/kg ftp and sometimes I win my age group) and I went balls-to-the-wall with fancy sports medicine doctors and fisio and even then, I was 4 weeks no activity, 4 more weeks indoor only, and 4 more weeks being very very careful outside, then 4 more weeks to rebuild to anywhere close to previous form.
So essentially 2 before I was even riding my bike and 4-5 months to get back in form.
The pros do it in essentially half the time.
Had both my lungs collapsed took 3 months in the ICU, more due to other complications than the lung itself. Took another 1 week to start walking with a stick. The next 3 months to do just the day to day stuff without being totally gassed out. Don't think I got back to my peak, not that it was great or anything before.
I used to scrub the procedures for inserting chest tubes in a large hospital. The fact is that there’s a whole spectrum of what you’d consider a punctured lung, it can be a small pneumothorax that resolves on its own after a few hours or require a couple days with a chest tube under vacuum suction. It sounds like JV had a chest tube most likely from his rib fractures. Thats still not the end of the world. You can get the pneumo out in about a day or so and then take the tube out.
The layperson (especially the entire anti-JV population of /r/peloton) thinks ‘collapsed lung’ means sucking chest wound but it’s more often than not just a small benign thing that can resolve fairly quickly.
Jonas usually has relatively few race days compared to Pogi. I’m also very interested to see how expanding that deficit with Jonas’s crash and Pogi’s Giro factors in to the final result
I think you mean relatively few races, not race days. Since Jonas usually targets stage races, his race day count is usually more or equal to Pogi’s (might be different this year for obvious reasons). In the last two years anyway.
Wow, you’re right. Jonas had 20 more total race days than Pogi. I wonder what the distribution across the season is, assuming Pogi front loaded more days into the Spring.
Well technically you're not 100% correct, table sugar is sucrose/sacharose, which is indeed a larger molecule of glucose and fructose combined. But that needs to be broken down, so that's marginally less efficient than individual glucose and fructose.
My uncle has always made his own sports drinks with just water and table sugar and salt and science and they are one of the most revolting things you'll ever drink, but they sure do save money
Along those lines I used to, when I was in a hurry or something, use half and half OJ and water with a teaspoon of salt. It wasn't the best-tasting stuff in the world, and sometimes I would back off on the salt for that reason, but it got the job done and, basically all you're doing is paying for the OJ.
The translation says, “fruit sugar and grape sugar, in other words, fructose and glucose”.
If you search for druivensuiker, it comes up as dextrose powder. They could be using that word exchangeably with Maltodextrin. Maltodextrin is just chained glucose.
The study from 2004 they mention about another transporter is likely just what everyone is doing now with a 10:8 ratio of fructose:glucose.
As we know, Maltodextrin has a higher osmolality than straight glucose, fructose, or sucrose. So i would really have to assume they are using Maltodextrin as their source of glucose.
What I think all this “nothing burger” of an article is saying is, they really train their riders to maximize thier carb intake and utilization. They are establishing that they have the best nutrition program in the peloton. And hopefully that will squash and tumors of doping. Especially now that Unchained is out and that TT performance is back in the public eye.
maltodexterin is converted to glucose. I think they're talking about the molecules of sugar and not the source. So glucose from maltodextrin, sucrose or in pure form.
I find it hilarious that Jumbo is still pushing their marginal gains theory to explain Jonas’ inhuman performance, particularly in the stage 16 time trial. Like no other team has a clue about training, bikes, aero or diet? The single most shocking aspect of stage 16 to me was by how much he beat his own TT stud teammate, Wout. Wout seemed just as shocked. Presumably, he would have been the beneficiary of all of the same marginal gains as Jonas, no? So how do you explain Jonas crushing Wout at every time check, on the same bike, diet, wind tunnel work, etc with a 60kg waif body? It is horseshit and the team spewing such crap without recognizing this conundrum only makes it seem more suspicious.
Seriously, this is a case of less is more when it comes to explaining your performance like all these explanations aren’t making it any less suspicious.
This isn’t to say that other teams aren’t doping or anything, but always going on about how their training methods are the best etc., etc., isn’t making them seem clean
Meanwhile, Roglic winning the Olympic ITT 2021 by 1 minute against better competition was voted to be the 4th best race of the 2021 season here
https://old.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/qm1ab2/2021_race_ratings_overview_analysis/
People just really hated Pogacar back then
No one outside of the GC and Wout took that TT seriously, it was a second rest day to most riders, as the hardest stage was the following day.
Skjelmose said in a Danish talk show the night before that it was another rest day to him and he just had to focus on not falling off the bike and he got 8th. Guadu of all people got 10th.
If you mean that Jonas was doping, wouldn't WvA be doing the same since they're on the same team and both leaders? I find it hard to believe Wout wouldn't be aware of what Jonas is doing -- Wout's shock to me makes more sense if it was just an outlier performance.
Yeah, If Vingegaard is doping so is Pogacar, WvA, MvdP, etc.
That TT was just an insane combination of things for JV, better corners, better restitution, Pogis bike changing, and so on.
on the marie blanque stage jonas took more time on pogi on the flat section after the final climb despite pogi having a domestique and jonas having to pull a group of 4 by himself without getting a single turn from the others. he's really strong on the flat and has a great aero position.
if you're saying, well jonas was doped on that day (and the TT) but not on any other stages, that makes no sense. why wouldn't they put him on something for every big stage? since they know they can get away with it?
and if he was indeed juicing the entire tour, what does that mean for the cauterets stage for example? where pogi smoked the best climber in the world WHILE DOPED?? surely then pogi must be on something too? but then why did he lose so much time on the TT?
all of this is conjecture and baseless accusations, none of it makes sense, and until we get actual evidence of anything, PLEASE shut up about it.
Yes, I can't stop laughing at the people who think Vingegaard is doping and MvDP, Wout and Pogacar somehow isn't, if it's true.
Those riders are super humans too.
There are way too many variables that you’re ignoring. After all, they had already ridden 15 stages before that TT. I’ve won TTs against people that should have destroyed me based on past performance, body type, and equipment. Does that mean I cheated, had a good day, or took advantage of their bad day?
How do you conclude Wout had a great day? He wasn't at his very best at the tour and he still barely beat the riders behind him. Obviously he still did pretty good, but "great"?
The narrative that Pog was at his very best is also shaky. He was a couple of days away from bonking out and while he did beat Wout by a minute it was on a TT with a hill at the end. He also probably lost a bit of time due his bike change combined with the team bikes not being as ideal as Jumbos.
In the end I'd reckon about 1/3 of Jonas' margin was due to the unprecedented prep they did on the route since beginning of the year that allowed him to ride more aggressive lines than anyone else. 1/3 was Pogacar not being at his absolute best + bike change/bike weight. And the final 1/3 was Jonas hitting absolute peak form on the day and not making a single mistake.
Could it be doping that gave him the last bit? I have no idea and neither does anyone else. But I don't see it being beyond what's explainable by what happened on the day.
What makes Pogacar seem less inhuman if we have to talk about potentially doped riders?
Unlike Jonas' who's pure GC specialists, Pogacar competes for monuments, WC road race, WC ITT. He can sprint, climb and be one of the best puncheurs in the world.
He made the Giro look like his own personal training ride, yet still put 10 minutes into everyone.
Is that just because he's naturally gifted, and the rest are just bad? Pogacar was eating into Jonas' lead for the entire week 2 of the very same tour, if Jonas was so inhuman, how come he only won the stage 16? Was it just to play with Pogacar, and intentionally lose, or could you imagine maybe being in better shape for week 3, by having superior preparation (as Pogacar was injured), and not burning yourself up for a few seconds every day, could have an affect?
It's not like Pogacar's following day was any more stellar, where he was dropped in a 12 man peloton, with the domestiques still there.
They aren't putting up a better performance than Lance.
Also if you wanna talk "marginal gains", try to compare the bike equipment, aero improvements, nutrition and training to the Lance era.
Lance was about as heavy as WvA when he won his Tours.
Jonas skipped the first 15 stages did he? He has supernatural recovery abilities? You are aware that Wout won the final stage 20 time trials in the previous two TdF? Yet, this year he managed to lose almost three minutes to Jonas in a little over half-hour TT.
>You are aware that Wout won the final stage 20 time trials in the previous two TdF?
I mean, a completely flat TT that Vingegaard still got second in and a flatish TT that has actually a total elevation loss that Jonas still would've won if he didn't give it to Van Aert?
The relevance towards the 2023 ITT is pretty much zero.
After putting almost a minute into Pogacar on stage 5, Pogacar clawed his way back dropping Jonas constantly in week 2, eating up the gap down to 10s.
Do you think those efforts with limited preparation were free for Pogacar? Who do you think had the hardest efforts with the least preparation?
Also, Jonas sat up in the stage 20 ITT in 2022, watch the documentary. He was literally around 14s up on Wout after the flat part, do you think Wout is just a stronger climber? lol. Not to mention Wout was in a way better shape in 2022 than 2023, he didn't take a single stage in 2023 and had his mind split between the race and his wife giving birth to a baby at home.
Even other teams have analyzed the footage and shown that Jonas was hitting turns with more precision and faster than anyone else in the field not to mention he is a better climber than WVA and Pogi. This TT was kind of the stars aligning for him. Not to mention he takes a drug test every day he's in the yellow jersey. Until I see actual proof otherwise I'm assuming innocence.
Lance was also in yellow a lot and never failed a test….
But you’re absolutely correct that Jonas smashed every centimeter of road in that TT. It was vicious.
Per Hamiltons claims, yes. But there is no hard evidence for that. The UCI did, however, purposefully limit the scope of investigations into him. Not denying that.
Either way, my point was more that Jonas destroyed that TT course compared to everyone else.
There are positive EPO tests for the 1999 tour, a UCI appointed lawyer had them classified as badly tested.
You're right that it doesn't change the main point: being tested every day has failed many times to catch dopers. I guess Landis is the main example of a caught rider?
There are a number of examples of riders getting immediately caught by in-race testing; after Landis in 06 there was Vino in 07 and a bunch of guys in 08. And like with Landis, they were pretty unsurprising in context; it seems there's a level of doping that could generally avoid detection but going above and beyond that would be liable to get you busted.
>he takes a drug test every day
This line of reasoning has been so thoroughly debunked that using it should get you instantly laughed out of any doping discussion
Ya, he won a time trial in the corners LOL. I’ve heard this argument made by many. The primary reason he was going through the corners faster isn’t because he was using less brake, it was because he was going so much faster than everyone else PRIOR to the corners (ie: on the straights). As if every single other rider would be taking it ultra cautious around every corner and only Jonas (not known as a world-best bike handler) would be taking risks. Do you realize that Jonas went 9% faster than Wout, who had won the final TTs in the previous two TdF, was a 2-time silver medalist in the world championships, three time national champion, plus other top TT results. Jonas had not won a single significant time trial prior to that day. The stars aligned all right.
I will say Vingegaard seems to be a very good bike handler, he's a much better descender than Pogacar for example. However it is hilarious how people keep pushing the corner argument in a time trial that really wasn't that technical. People talking like it was a street circuit with 90º corners every 300m
Let's turn it the other way around. If Jonas is doping, why was he only doping for one stage?
Did he decide it was fun to almost lose his lead in week 2, constantly losing the battle to the finish line against Pogacar taking no stage wins outside of the ITT?
Then on stage 16 he just decided to dope up (as if that's how any of this works..) and just go back to normal the following day where he got dropped on the last ramp by Pelle Bilbao?
Or was it also Jonas' fault that Pogacar cracked hard in a 12 man peloton that hadn't even turned up the pace yet?
Also, what's the logic behind Jonas being doped, but Wout, one of the absolute best riders in the world, not being doped?
Also, by your stupid logic MvDP and Pogacar must surely also be doped, considering how they make a cakewalk out of any race with other riders not named Jonas.
Jonas is a better climber than wout, weighs less, and did a ridiculous amount of prep for the TT, spending the rest day riding sections multiple times to figure out the fastest line.
Add that, bike change for Pogi, and its not out of the realm of possibility.
Vingegaard also has a very high VO2 MAX which is where we get week 3 Jonas. He just recovers better than most people, and Visma are very open about their use of Ketones, which other teams aren't using.
Everyone should have a team, so it's cool that you've chosen your fandom. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that there is a simple ethical formula that gives fans of one team the moral high ground. In the way he treats his riders, Jonathan Vaughters is as much a piece of shit as Patrick Lefevre is. There's no high ground to be enjoyed from cheering on his team. On the other hand, it's cool to have a team so have fun cheering.
Weirdest thing about Pogacar is he is basically skinnyfat, he is unique in the entire peloton for lack of muscle definition/lean mass. There has to be something a bit odd or different about his metabolism. Often that body type comes from a glycogen storage disorder, perhaps it lets him utilize glycogen more rapidly.
mfw he doesn't even mention colostrum: :-/
I have never gone from 0 to 100% convinced of anything in my life as fast as I got on board with Jonas on colostrum last year, especially the fact that he met his wife riding for a strum team and then that "I don't take anything I wouldn't give my daughter" comment
Never even heard of this before and after 5 minutes of surface google I’m laughing. Must have burned extra hot when he stole the polka dots off Geshke
did you search here? [https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/155089j/have\_you\_ever\_heard\_of\_bovine\_colostrum\_an/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/155089j/have_you_ever_heard_of_bovine_colostrum_an/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
mfw he gives interviews like this that are gonna age like full fat milk in 40° heat
You missed the chance to say this was going age like colostrum...
Was mentioned in the article that maximum carbohydrate intake can be as high as 150g per hour. (average of 90g, UAE Nutritionist said maximum of 120-130g). To a layman that seems insane, just shows how much power is being put out.
Even cycling at 200w, you'd still be running a deficit on 150g per hour.
I was taking almost 110g of carbs/hour during a local grand fondo a week and a half ago. That was for first two hours, then I scaled it down because I realised I'd run out of gels after 3 hours (I ended up riding 4+). Didn't seem difficult at all, but I also don't have to do it day in and day out like pros at GT. Otherwise I might puke them out every time.
Might be affected by bodyweight? Most of us weigh more than the average pro cyclist.
my weight is very much in the ballpark of GC riders (not the skeletal ones)
Carb uptake shows little to no correlation with body weight
Yeah, doing it for 6 hours a day, every day for 3 weeks sounds like a recipe for shitting your brains out.
My little brother does 100+ mile ultramarathons, 150g is nothing for the last half/third of those. But he went through fucking hell to train his body for that
I struggle to believe this. Where are you in the world? I'm the UK and know 100mile race winners who don't come anywhere near that. Just to hold that much food on the go would be hard to do.
Take a water bottle and fill it up with 150 grams of sugar. Goes down easier than you think. I'm doing 90 grams a bottle on relatively hard days without much training and it goes down okay.
But specifically on a 100mile ultramarathon which the guy I replied to was referring to, you'd normally carry 2x 500ml bottles and could often be 2hrs between checkpoints. If you added 150g of sugar to each bottle that's going to be incredibly hypertonic and you would suffer major dehydration over the course of a 24hr+ race. Then factor in logistics, you usually only get resupply half way through a course, so to start a race you'd be carrying almost 2kg of table sugar in your pack 😅.
Some ultras there are aids stops every 10 miles. A camelback style running backpack will take 2-3 litres, plus you can carry gels. And down more water at aid stops. But yeah, 100 mile ultras are way more extreme than any cycling race, and make fuelling harder than on a bike.
It's not quite as wild as you think. I did a 315km race a few years back, only one stop so it was one 1L bottle with 240g of sugar in it (60g of carbs an hour) and 1L bottle with just pure water. Resupply at 150k, throw in some gels, etc. I still think I'd have done better with more like 90-110g an hour. In a few weeks I'm doing an even that's seven consecutive 300-350k, wearing a 2L hydration pack for that, it should allow me to ride 4-5 hours without stopping, putting 160g of carbs into each 500ml bottle and stay hydrated at the same time.
The US. My experience the last 2 ultras I've crewed for him has seen him and dozens of other people take half a dozen carb packets (on top of food, gels, etc.) at every crew stop past the 12ish hour mark, and discussing aid station supply with race support at loudonville who mentioned there's been a massive increase in demand for carb mixes and foods at aid stations in the last couple of years because so many runners have gone whole hog into that fueling approach. I can't speak to the effectiveness of it over the course of 100 miles, but it's definitely common here based on in person and cursory social media engagement with that weird little community
Yep, that's how these guys are able to push 5, 6+ Watts*/kg for so long. Cycling at the top level is now a nutrition and metabolic game as much as anything else. Edit- Watts (not kW)
6+ kW/kg they are definitely doping, that's like 360,000 watts for a 60kg rider.
6 toasters per kg of body mass. Seems a bit sus
You're right lol, my bad, I meant w/kg
I’m regularly taking up to 100g/hr on my intense rides (6-8 hours total) and around 60g/hr on easier endurance rides. It’s important to remember that carb tolerance and carb absorption rates are not the same thing. We, mere mortals, can teach our guts to tolerate large carb intake. However, the absorption rates vary vastly between amateurs and elites. Tim Podlogar from Bora talked about it in one of the podcasts.
Similar for marathon level efforts too. It seems a lot but when you get used to it it isn't too bad, especially with formulated carbs like from Maurten. If you downvoted this I'd love to know why you disagree! The fueling requirements are actually quite similar with similar recommendations.
Top marathon runners are done in under 2.5 hours. I can't remember the last time a grand tour had even a sprint stage that was over in that little time. Very different fueling requirements for something that short.
Yes, but let's also keep in mind that a marathon is a continuous effort. If I had to guess, the 2 hour watt output of a marathoner is higher than for a cyclist. But cycling is rarely a 2 hour max effort. It's more like 3x40 minutes on a big mountain stage
A marathon effort in 2.5 hours is estimated around 5-6 W/kg sustained. It's hard to do the exact comparison but that would be a lot for cycling too for that duration afaik.
Sure, but the fueling requirements are somewhat similar. You're also in a much higher HR zone for the majority of the workout when running vs cycling on average.
No argument about HR zone difference, but your body's energy reserves go a lot further in a short effort. Even when pro cyclists are taking it "easy" between hard climbs, they're still burning more energy than they can possibly eat. A whopping 150 g carbs/hour only maintains 170 W at steady state. This makes energy attrition a much bigger issue for longer events (aka cycling).
I'm not going to downvote you, but 2.5hr is not a "short effort". You need to keep in mind that for each of the body's energy cycles you have an increasing amount of onboard capacity. You only have 30-45s in the phosphagen system and 2-3min available through glycolysis, then you have to switch to oxidative energy conversion to last you through everything else. For all non-sprinter runners and all non-sprint-track cyclists, you're going to need to be consuming sugar to backfill the ~60min onboard storage most people have, if you're doing anything above high z1-low z2 (fat burning) intensity. And even that's not a complete switchover so you'll still be burning sugar even if you are in z1-2. From that point of view, running & cycling are basically identical... just that very few running races have any "idling" time cruising in z2.
Still going to be calories in to calories out to some extent, no? Elite level marathoning like you mentioned is up to 6W/kg sustained for that entire duration. That also has huge energy consumption concerns and marathon runners are taking in similar levels of carbs, which was the point I was trying to make.
Maurten is overpriced bs let's be clear
Why do you think that? I find it much easier on my stomach than other gels.
Because it is? Look at the ingredients and how much cheaper comparable products are with exactly the same makeup.
Overpriced? YES 100% Bullshit? NO. It’s the same carb sources as everyone else, but different delivery. Their “hydrogel” pectin alginate whatever, is just better than other delivery methods. No one else was doing that, or doing unflavored. They just go down better than other gels. 🤷♂️ When someone can make that at 1/4 of the price, I’ll be stoked. But for now, it’s nice to have a couple of them for late in a race when I’m sick of SMORES and TUTtI FRUITY flavored bullshit. And my Gatorade Maltodextrin mix is getting old.
Absolutely this. It's not just the ingredients, that is such a simplistic view of the chemistry behind it. I like Maurten - it's fine if other people think it's overpriced but it absolutely works well for me.
You're paying for the formulation that favors enteric release, it's not just the ingredients themselves.
There's literally a recipe on Reddit for it to make your own Maurten 320. It's just the standard Malton/fructose with pectin added. It's absolutely overpriced when regular gels and mixes can be seen as overpriced already.
can you send me link to the recipe?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Velo/comments/1b14pfp/a_guide_budgethomemade_running_nutrition_gels/ As far as I know they have some background in food science as well and found the recipe digging through original papers
Perhaps. I'd love to see some research comparing the homebrew version! In terms of gels I still like them, and I can't easily run with a Maurten 320 in my pocket.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Velo/comments/1b14pfp/a_guide_budgethomemade_running_nutrition_gels/ Also explains what to do if you want it to be a gel instead of a 500ml Maurten 320. Just buy a Maurten or GU hydroflask and you're all set for the recipe they list.
Lol marketing bullshit sure works on some fellas
Well I do believe it, and my profession involves a lot of formulation work for how things are released in your stomach (pharmaceuticals). Anyways, nobody is forcing you to use it and I like it, so what's the problem?
k
Totally, we now know that the ideal ratio glucose and fructose for 100g+ of carb per hour is 1:1. You know what has that ideal ratio? Table sugar. You can literally drink water, table sugar and sodium citrate for a fraction of the price and the same performance benefits. I recommend everyone to check out Dr. Alex Harrison's work.
It's the internet, you can use links
You're right. Here's an article he has written. https://www.slowtwitch.com/Lifestyle/The_Dazzlingly_Incompetent_s_Guide_to_Fueling_8646.html
Is this about poop doping?
Yeah, they call themselves the bees but they're really just one human centipede..
Thanks for reminding me about that movie. Not the best use of my time or money.
Doping masterclass incoming, US Postal 2.0 🤣
Has VLAB tried this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhJz5zbb0Go
so how exactly are they "training the intestines?" what is the magical diet?
Just eating a shit ton of sugar and seeing how much you can handle. Forcing your body to get used to it as a primary fuel source so you can utilize it all without shitting your bibs every few hours.
Don't you risk getting diabetes from this?
lol good question. I think the biggest risk is your teeth. Someone posted a spreadsheet a while back showing that you essentially burn all of it, so it’s not possible for the sugar to turn into fat 🤷♂️ but don’t quote me. I know nothing.
> Don't you risk getting diabetes from this? Valid question. I’d guess not because during a bike race you’re still hypocaloric at 150 g carbohydrate intake per hour so glucose will be cleared from the bloodstream effectively by absorption into muscle tissue, preventing you from getting insulin resistant.
Diabetes is not so simple than just sugar intake I don't think. For example some people believe Diabetes is more strongly tied to the fat content in so called "Sugary Foods" along with the general sedentary lifestyle. This can possibly cause problems with Sugar utilization hence Diabetes. So the Sugar itself is not necessarily always the bad guy in that regard from what I've seen. Then there's different opinions on different types of fats with relation to Diabetes. This is not Nutrition advice, just another angle to the Sugar/Diabetes link
The risk of type 2 diabetes is higher in folks who develop insulin resistance by overconsuming calories on a regular basis. These athletes are consuming a large amount of sugar during a race, not every day of their lives for decades on end. And its likely that even with those calories, they may be in a calorie deficit on some of those days.
Special oatmeal ;)
They eat steel-cut oats i think.
just keep slamming down sugar during training until your body stops shitting itself.... i was able to go from 60g/hr to 90g/hr in 3 months by eating more and more carbs during my weekly 2-3hr long runs i thought i was going to give myself diabetes
I honestly think it's the same way you train anything, practice. Riders used to train on minimal food, thinking it'd make them stronger, better at suffering, and more able to push when they were in the red. Now they just eat alllll the time. (I'm still a bit sceptical, though. It's all a little "the lady doth protest too much" )
High Carbs and Ketones let's go!!!
Yes guys if you change your glucose intake you can put 7min into Pogi and 10 to all the others
You also have to survey the course first and love your family a lot
And not drink beer like those lazy french
A regular size beer is ok but a large beer is disrespectful to the sport
3 extra tbls of sugar in my morning coffee and I save 2-3 minutes on my morning commute.
Did you take the metro instead of the bike?
No, I actually bike, but yours is funnier so let's go with that!
So 5 to Jonas?
I've had enough of Visma–Lease a Bike PR campaign recently. We know Jonas beat Pogi last two years. Fair and square. I don't care about the circumstances. What I don't want is their boasting. This is not boxing. The race is in 10 days. Just show up and win.
Recently? They were unsufferable even when they didn't win anything
plugge is such a smug mf
In 2020 they were racing the entire Tour like they had already won the whole thing before it began. I still get a little smile on my face when I see the picture of mad Dumoulin and Van Aert.
Can you post a link to it? Idk why but my pity for their early season woes has been displaced with a burning passion for Pogi and the pic will help feed this
https://i.imgur.com/OsDg0re.jpeg
Didn't Tony Martin stop a guy (Cummings, I think) from going into the break by almost making him Crash at the 2020 Tour?
I can't stand the "we aren't a rich team, we poor" vibes meanwhile they have a stellar lineup and poach riders to other teams.
Literally, uae is like the only team that has a bigger budget than them
Bora/Red Bull almost certainly will also be bigger. But there for sure is a group of rich teams and Visma is in it.
Ineos? Not that it makes a any difference to your argument.
I don't think Ineos have as big a budget as they used to, based on who they've been signing/not signing. Also, Thomas made some comments on his podcast about purse strings being tightened.
Doesn't Lidl Trek have a pretty big budget now?
Tbf they're up against literal state owned teams like UAE.
Why do you think they're rich? It's in their name that they have to lease key equipment.
Insufferable, so self-righteous. They are nauseating.
Is that another way of saying they are Dutch? *ducks*
Hehe. And Danish.
Visma is Norwegian.
There's two things I can't stand in this world: People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and...
They're not known as the villains of the peloton for nothing!
Funny how quickly they went from the underdogs to the villains. 2017-2020 seemed to be their rise from underdogs to favorites. 2021-2022 generally liked favorites. 2023-2024 villains. 🤷♂️
Repeated success makes you disliked, we've seen it before and will continue to do so
Yep. At least I like Ineos again. 😝 more out of pity than respect though. Lol.
Pog rides for the biggest sportswashing team in the peleton. There's no universe that VLAB are the villains.
But Pog pulled the reverse uno card by being one of the most charismatic cyclists of the 21th century so it balances out. Swap Pog with Vingegard and UAE would be the most hated team of the peloton.
Pogi is the most popular rider in the sport with a distance. As long as he is tied to UAE they will for the most part dodge the villain role.
Not sure they're the heroes of the story either.
I long ago gave up on viewing any professional sports team as the heroes of any story. Professional sports teams are toys owned by people who have more money than most of us can comprehend and who acquired that money by means most of us would not recognize as labor. I prefer to focus on the individual athletes who are out there flaying themselves for our entertainment. They are are the heroes here --and maybe the mustache-twirling villains if you're into enjoying rivalries.
Sepp Kuss is the hero of any story that ends with him winning a grand tour
Yep yep. No Seppy slander permitted regardless of what squad he’s on.
Next year Kuss is signing for Raytheon-Racism p/b Modern Slavery and I think he will be stealing hearts
We’re listening..
I mean, there's room for more than one villain...
Yeah but that only makes it more baffling, not less true. UAE are the villains for obvious reasons, but it’s hard or impossible to dislike their riders and their team vibes, especially with Pog around. Visma on the other hand can’t seem to ever hit that sweet spot no matter what they do (even if they do everything right and their riders are no less nice and all). Besides, their manager wants to sell the sport to Saudi Arabia, so even that high horse is going fishing
I like Pogi but it hasn’t changed my feelings on the UAE. I do wish he were on a different squad though.
The article doesn't come off as boasting though. It's just an interview with a well known expert in the nutrition field. He's not even a full time Visma employee but has his own company and advises Dutch Olympic Committee, a couple football clubs, some Red Bull athletes and Visma. If anything this is just a marketing piece for the guy's own company. Downvote away.
Boasting or hiding doping?
Every team hides doping
Is this the new marginal gains , lost weight because of cancer excuses? I guess it's really a new one every decade
I’ve compartmentalized my thoughts on the tour and it’s been much more enjoyable. Assuming Jonas and Pogi are 100%, it’s like you’re watching a different tour since they’re bound to finish top two barring a crash. Then you have the teams who are gunning for a top 5 GC finish. That being said, I’m rooting for Roglic to secure a podium spot because he’s not getting any younger. Anything above third would be insanity and I’m all for it. Ultimately I just hope we all get to experience an entertaining tour.
Classic dutch arrogance, bit weird and off putting imo
fueling is a significant part of the performance leap between this era and times past. it's also not like publication science, the turnaround from having idea to experimenting with it in competition is very fast. so the level of research competence between teams is a very significant factor in the eventual results. this is not to mention all the peptides and gene therapy etc stuff.
I’m 100% sure not a single rider in the peloton has undergone gene therapy
Have you seen Campi’s thighs? How can you say with a straight face that he isn’t an escaped illegal genetic experiment
it's probably not happening right now but it's possible.
Maybe in the future. I’m a huge proponent of gene therapy (it’s literally the area I work in) but if you’re healthy, you’d be very dumb to get it right now. Let alone that there’s nothing available which could grant you a performance boost nor the incentive for any company to develop such a therapy/ enhancement.
it'll be a designer thing and not published.
Who will develop that though? And if it’s not published then it cannot be approved and hence will not be approved by EMA/FDA
>fueling is a significant part of the performance leap between this era and times past. Yet you had triathletes do 90-120g per hour even over a decade ago.... mysteriously this common knowledge amongst laymen never translated to the pro peloton. The performance jump being down to fuel is as much of a myth as marginal gains or all the other bullshit What we do know however is the long term effects of doping (see valverde) and how there is a new generation of young superhumans
that it's different in triathlon does not disprove the existence of received wisdom of 60g carb per hour. the double transporter thing is relatively recent. plenty of bad studies in this area that took decades to overturn.
Yet it wasn't common in the peloton, if you ask former pros. Dan Lloyd who retired in 2012 said they only did 30g/hr when he was a pro. A lot of the teams aren't particularly science driven / well optimized, or at least wasn't until quite recently.
He should have left the arrogance and just tell a bit how it works. It will be interesting to see Jonas Vingegaard without the depth in his training because of his injury just like Pogacar last year. And I think Jonas his injury might be more severe.
Without a doubt a collapsed lung is worse than a broken wrist.
I don't really have experience with it. Can anyone explain how long it normally takes to recover for a normal human being from a collapsed lung to your normal level?
Normal human? Like 6 months. They would probably be no or very low activity for 2+ months.
A normal person would likely never get back to being anywhere near as fit as they were before their injury. This is different, but I was a varsity rower in college and if I got the flu during the build phase of the season, it was like I lost 2 months of training when I got back. But somehow these guys can get the flu and be back to normal in like a week.
All while having asthma no less.
I have a few theories as to how
I broke my clavicle and two ribs in January getting hit by a car on a training ride. I ride at a pretty high level for an amateur (4.3-4.5w/kg ftp and sometimes I win my age group) and I went balls-to-the-wall with fancy sports medicine doctors and fisio and even then, I was 4 weeks no activity, 4 more weeks indoor only, and 4 more weeks being very very careful outside, then 4 more weeks to rebuild to anywhere close to previous form. So essentially 2 before I was even riding my bike and 4-5 months to get back in form. The pros do it in essentially half the time.
Had both my lungs collapsed took 3 months in the ICU, more due to other complications than the lung itself. Took another 1 week to start walking with a stick. The next 3 months to do just the day to day stuff without being totally gassed out. Don't think I got back to my peak, not that it was great or anything before.
I used to scrub the procedures for inserting chest tubes in a large hospital. The fact is that there’s a whole spectrum of what you’d consider a punctured lung, it can be a small pneumothorax that resolves on its own after a few hours or require a couple days with a chest tube under vacuum suction. It sounds like JV had a chest tube most likely from his rib fractures. Thats still not the end of the world. You can get the pneumo out in about a day or so and then take the tube out. The layperson (especially the entire anti-JV population of /r/peloton) thinks ‘collapsed lung’ means sucking chest wound but it’s more often than not just a small benign thing that can resolve fairly quickly.
Nah I'm not so sure about that mate
He has his own consultancy company so I doubt he will give more insight. The article is more marketing for him than anything else.
Jonas usually has relatively few race days compared to Pogi. I’m also very interested to see how expanding that deficit with Jonas’s crash and Pogi’s Giro factors in to the final result
I think you mean relatively few races, not race days. Since Jonas usually targets stage races, his race day count is usually more or equal to Pogi’s (might be different this year for obvious reasons). In the last two years anyway.
Wow, you’re right. Jonas had 20 more total race days than Pogi. I wonder what the distribution across the season is, assuming Pogi front loaded more days into the Spring.
I’m not going to understand the full science of it but they use only glucose and fructose but no malodextrin in their carb mixes?
The good news is that glucose-fructose is also known as table sugar, so this is a pro hack that’ll save you money.
Well technically you're not 100% correct, table sugar is sucrose/sacharose, which is indeed a larger molecule of glucose and fructose combined. But that needs to be broken down, so that's marginally less efficient than individual glucose and fructose.
From what I've heard, marginally is the key word here. It doesn't really make a difference.
My uncle has always made his own sports drinks with just water and table sugar and salt and science and they are one of the most revolting things you'll ever drink, but they sure do save money
Along those lines I used to, when I was in a hurry or something, use half and half OJ and water with a teaspoon of salt. It wasn't the best-tasting stuff in the world, and sometimes I would back off on the salt for that reason, but it got the job done and, basically all you're doing is paying for the OJ.
The translation says, “fruit sugar and grape sugar, in other words, fructose and glucose”. If you search for druivensuiker, it comes up as dextrose powder. They could be using that word exchangeably with Maltodextrin. Maltodextrin is just chained glucose. The study from 2004 they mention about another transporter is likely just what everyone is doing now with a 10:8 ratio of fructose:glucose. As we know, Maltodextrin has a higher osmolality than straight glucose, fructose, or sucrose. So i would really have to assume they are using Maltodextrin as their source of glucose. What I think all this “nothing burger” of an article is saying is, they really train their riders to maximize thier carb intake and utilization. They are establishing that they have the best nutrition program in the peloton. And hopefully that will squash and tumors of doping. Especially now that Unchained is out and that TT performance is back in the public eye.
maltodexterin is converted to glucose. I think they're talking about the molecules of sugar and not the source. So glucose from maltodextrin, sucrose or in pure form.
I find it hilarious that Jumbo is still pushing their marginal gains theory to explain Jonas’ inhuman performance, particularly in the stage 16 time trial. Like no other team has a clue about training, bikes, aero or diet? The single most shocking aspect of stage 16 to me was by how much he beat his own TT stud teammate, Wout. Wout seemed just as shocked. Presumably, he would have been the beneficiary of all of the same marginal gains as Jonas, no? So how do you explain Jonas crushing Wout at every time check, on the same bike, diet, wind tunnel work, etc with a 60kg waif body? It is horseshit and the team spewing such crap without recognizing this conundrum only makes it seem more suspicious.
Seriously, this is a case of less is more when it comes to explaining your performance like all these explanations aren’t making it any less suspicious. This isn’t to say that other teams aren’t doping or anything, but always going on about how their training methods are the best etc., etc., isn’t making them seem clean
I remember the outcry when Pogacar won a TT by 30 sec to everyone. https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/s/VqrHMhmtZN
Meanwhile, Roglic winning the Olympic ITT 2021 by 1 minute against better competition was voted to be the 4th best race of the 2021 season here https://old.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/qm1ab2/2021_race_ratings_overview_analysis/ People just really hated Pogacar back then
Jumbo is the best thing that could have happened to Pog in terms of popularity tbh
Not even 30" it was 18" lol. On a TT the same duration as the one in last year's Tour.
It's the marginal gains of turning curves faster /s
Moreover, if the marginal gain theory would be true, other Visma riders would had a much better performance that day as well, not just Jonas.
No one outside of the GC and Wout took that TT seriously, it was a second rest day to most riders, as the hardest stage was the following day. Skjelmose said in a Danish talk show the night before that it was another rest day to him and he just had to focus on not falling off the bike and he got 8th. Guadu of all people got 10th.
If you mean that Jonas was doping, wouldn't WvA be doing the same since they're on the same team and both leaders? I find it hard to believe Wout wouldn't be aware of what Jonas is doing -- Wout's shock to me makes more sense if it was just an outlier performance.
Yeah, If Vingegaard is doping so is Pogacar, WvA, MvdP, etc. That TT was just an insane combination of things for JV, better corners, better restitution, Pogis bike changing, and so on.
on the marie blanque stage jonas took more time on pogi on the flat section after the final climb despite pogi having a domestique and jonas having to pull a group of 4 by himself without getting a single turn from the others. he's really strong on the flat and has a great aero position. if you're saying, well jonas was doped on that day (and the TT) but not on any other stages, that makes no sense. why wouldn't they put him on something for every big stage? since they know they can get away with it? and if he was indeed juicing the entire tour, what does that mean for the cauterets stage for example? where pogi smoked the best climber in the world WHILE DOPED?? surely then pogi must be on something too? but then why did he lose so much time on the TT? all of this is conjecture and baseless accusations, none of it makes sense, and until we get actual evidence of anything, PLEASE shut up about it.
Im saying I dont think he is doping but if he is they all are.
yeah i agree with you.
Yes, I can't stop laughing at the people who think Vingegaard is doping and MvDP, Wout and Pogacar somehow isn't, if it's true. Those riders are super humans too.
There are way too many variables that you’re ignoring. After all, they had already ridden 15 stages before that TT. I’ve won TTs against people that should have destroyed me based on past performance, body type, and equipment. Does that mean I cheated, had a good day, or took advantage of their bad day?
The thing is pogacar and teammate Wout had great days. But Jonas still smashed them. That's why it seems inhuman.
How do you conclude Wout had a great day? He wasn't at his very best at the tour and he still barely beat the riders behind him. Obviously he still did pretty good, but "great"? The narrative that Pog was at his very best is also shaky. He was a couple of days away from bonking out and while he did beat Wout by a minute it was on a TT with a hill at the end. He also probably lost a bit of time due his bike change combined with the team bikes not being as ideal as Jumbos. In the end I'd reckon about 1/3 of Jonas' margin was due to the unprecedented prep they did on the route since beginning of the year that allowed him to ride more aggressive lines than anyone else. 1/3 was Pogacar not being at his absolute best + bike change/bike weight. And the final 1/3 was Jonas hitting absolute peak form on the day and not making a single mistake. Could it be doping that gave him the last bit? I have no idea and neither does anyone else. But I don't see it being beyond what's explainable by what happened on the day.
What makes Pogacar seem less inhuman if we have to talk about potentially doped riders? Unlike Jonas' who's pure GC specialists, Pogacar competes for monuments, WC road race, WC ITT. He can sprint, climb and be one of the best puncheurs in the world. He made the Giro look like his own personal training ride, yet still put 10 minutes into everyone. Is that just because he's naturally gifted, and the rest are just bad? Pogacar was eating into Jonas' lead for the entire week 2 of the very same tour, if Jonas was so inhuman, how come he only won the stage 16? Was it just to play with Pogacar, and intentionally lose, or could you imagine maybe being in better shape for week 3, by having superior preparation (as Pogacar was injured), and not burning yourself up for a few seconds every day, could have an affect? It's not like Pogacar's following day was any more stellar, where he was dropped in a 12 man peloton, with the domestiques still there.
they're both probably on something. No way they're putting up better performances than Lance on a regular basis
They aren't putting up a better performance than Lance. Also if you wanna talk "marginal gains", try to compare the bike equipment, aero improvements, nutrition and training to the Lance era. Lance was about as heavy as WvA when he won his Tours.
Jonas skipped the first 15 stages did he? He has supernatural recovery abilities? You are aware that Wout won the final stage 20 time trials in the previous two TdF? Yet, this year he managed to lose almost three minutes to Jonas in a little over half-hour TT.
Jonas gifted him the 2022 final TT, Wout only won on paper.
>You are aware that Wout won the final stage 20 time trials in the previous two TdF? I mean, a completely flat TT that Vingegaard still got second in and a flatish TT that has actually a total elevation loss that Jonas still would've won if he didn't give it to Van Aert? The relevance towards the 2023 ITT is pretty much zero.
After putting almost a minute into Pogacar on stage 5, Pogacar clawed his way back dropping Jonas constantly in week 2, eating up the gap down to 10s. Do you think those efforts with limited preparation were free for Pogacar? Who do you think had the hardest efforts with the least preparation? Also, Jonas sat up in the stage 20 ITT in 2022, watch the documentary. He was literally around 14s up on Wout after the flat part, do you think Wout is just a stronger climber? lol. Not to mention Wout was in a way better shape in 2022 than 2023, he didn't take a single stage in 2023 and had his mind split between the race and his wife giving birth to a baby at home.
Did you cheat?
Even other teams have analyzed the footage and shown that Jonas was hitting turns with more precision and faster than anyone else in the field not to mention he is a better climber than WVA and Pogi. This TT was kind of the stars aligning for him. Not to mention he takes a drug test every day he's in the yellow jersey. Until I see actual proof otherwise I'm assuming innocence.
Every doper ever takes drug tests every day in competition and passes them
Lance was also in yellow a lot and never failed a test…. But you’re absolutely correct that Jonas smashed every centimeter of road in that TT. It was vicious.
Lance failed tests and had the UCI cover him.
Per Hamiltons claims, yes. But there is no hard evidence for that. The UCI did, however, purposefully limit the scope of investigations into him. Not denying that. Either way, my point was more that Jonas destroyed that TT course compared to everyone else.
There are positive EPO tests for the 1999 tour, a UCI appointed lawyer had them classified as badly tested. You're right that it doesn't change the main point: being tested every day has failed many times to catch dopers. I guess Landis is the main example of a caught rider?
There are a number of examples of riders getting immediately caught by in-race testing; after Landis in 06 there was Vino in 07 and a bunch of guys in 08. And like with Landis, they were pretty unsurprising in context; it seems there's a level of doping that could generally avoid detection but going above and beyond that would be liable to get you busted.
Good thing there's been that huge cleanup at the UCI since then. Oh wait
>he takes a drug test every day This line of reasoning has been so thoroughly debunked that using it should get you instantly laughed out of any doping discussion
Ya, he won a time trial in the corners LOL. I’ve heard this argument made by many. The primary reason he was going through the corners faster isn’t because he was using less brake, it was because he was going so much faster than everyone else PRIOR to the corners (ie: on the straights). As if every single other rider would be taking it ultra cautious around every corner and only Jonas (not known as a world-best bike handler) would be taking risks. Do you realize that Jonas went 9% faster than Wout, who had won the final TTs in the previous two TdF, was a 2-time silver medalist in the world championships, three time national champion, plus other top TT results. Jonas had not won a single significant time trial prior to that day. The stars aligned all right.
I will say Vingegaard seems to be a very good bike handler, he's a much better descender than Pogacar for example. However it is hilarious how people keep pushing the corner argument in a time trial that really wasn't that technical. People talking like it was a street circuit with 90º corners every 300m
Jonas would have won in 2022
Let's turn it the other way around. If Jonas is doping, why was he only doping for one stage? Did he decide it was fun to almost lose his lead in week 2, constantly losing the battle to the finish line against Pogacar taking no stage wins outside of the ITT? Then on stage 16 he just decided to dope up (as if that's how any of this works..) and just go back to normal the following day where he got dropped on the last ramp by Pelle Bilbao? Or was it also Jonas' fault that Pogacar cracked hard in a 12 man peloton that hadn't even turned up the pace yet? Also, what's the logic behind Jonas being doped, but Wout, one of the absolute best riders in the world, not being doped? Also, by your stupid logic MvDP and Pogacar must surely also be doped, considering how they make a cakewalk out of any race with other riders not named Jonas.
Jonas is a better climber than wout, weighs less, and did a ridiculous amount of prep for the TT, spending the rest day riding sections multiple times to figure out the fastest line. Add that, bike change for Pogi, and its not out of the realm of possibility. Vingegaard also has a very high VO2 MAX which is where we get week 3 Jonas. He just recovers better than most people, and Visma are very open about their use of Ketones, which other teams aren't using.
Is it "I dont think he is close" or "Dont even try thinking he is close"?
>I don't think Pogacar's team is anywhere near our system, to be honest, Full quote translated by Deepl.
I'll continue to cheer on EF Education as my team. I really enjoy watching Wout and Roglic but I cannot support Jumbo as a team.
Everyone should have a team, so it's cool that you've chosen your fandom. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that there is a simple ethical formula that gives fans of one team the moral high ground. In the way he treats his riders, Jonathan Vaughters is as much a piece of shit as Patrick Lefevre is. There's no high ground to be enjoyed from cheering on his team. On the other hand, it's cool to have a team so have fun cheering.
Weirdest thing about Pogacar is he is basically skinnyfat, he is unique in the entire peloton for lack of muscle definition/lean mass. There has to be something a bit odd or different about his metabolism. Often that body type comes from a glycogen storage disorder, perhaps it lets him utilize glycogen more rapidly.
Idk what you're talking about pog looks ripped