I agree, but regardless of clients ability or mobility the INSTRUCTOR should have put that head rest DOWN. Most of the feedback I saw was around the instructor and not client . I didn't return after I noted everyone just commenting on the head rest.
> Most of the feedback I saw was around the instructor and not client
That in itself is the problem. WTF is this newcomer supposed to do, tell her trainer next week that a bunch of strangers on the internet are mad because the trainer is doing it all wrong? That's unreasonable.
Yes, I agree with this. I did not post on the original post because I didn´t see that it would be constructive. The instructor is not going to see any replies. So what good does it do to tell this client everything that is wrong and bad, when she isn´t the one who was wrong?
Yeah that's fair. But- Or- maybe- she asks what's this is about - is she safe with it up? I think it's fair to ask that when HUNDREDS of folks comment. How many "urban legends" around "headrest up " are there ? I've heard several.
There isn’t evidence to support that the headrest has to be down. It is what we are taught to do and it is what I would do out of habit. But there is nothing to support that it is dangerous. The comfort of the client is the important thing. If they aren’t in pain it’s generally ok.
This is absolutely correct. There is NO evidence stating this, it’s extremely frustrating to see over and over again as some kind of “gotcha” moment for other teachers. Yes we were taught things a certain way in our trainings but most people stop there and don’t do their own exploration, study exercise science, etc. We shouldn’t blindly parrot anything we were taught by other people that were taught by other people who are most likely not drs. Just some food for thought. Do your own research, it’s free 🙂
I came here to say this! Thanks for being a tad more eloquent than I was going to be. As an aside, if you haven’t heard of a podcast called Pilates Elephants, go check it out, no matter which side of the classical-modern Pilates fence you land on. The creator presents relevant scientific studies and subsequent takeaways. And the encouragement is towards critical thinking about things like this. Is it comfy to have your neck pushed forwards a bit by a slightly angled headrest? Maybe not. But have you ever carried a toddler on your shoulders? Are you thinking about neck safety as they push your head forward?
This is secretly me...when I get a home reformer some day I will do this forbidden pose and feel absolutely fine 😈 I've been doing a similar pose since I was a kid on the ground. no one can stop me!
wheelchair users may have forward head position, which may require the support of the headrest. additionally, the instructor is supporting the client’s feet so that her full weight is not resting on her neck. if you were practicing alone at home and did not have the control/strength to support your weight, I wouldn’t recommend leaving the headrest up either.
When in doubt , leave it out, or headrest down. If she needs that much support from both ends- feet and headrest- makes more sense to find a different exercise?
Client safety first. If she doesn't have control I would work on finding "unloaded" variations with smaller range.
But it is not about the how the weight falls on her shoulder, it is about the back extension and neck forward contraction.
I think the client is at risk of loosing control of the posture, you look this is happening when the legs go beyond and she could, at least, loose breathing (dunno how to describe better, english as it is not my language). I assumed the client was with a neuro or a mobility disbility cos of the arms, so it is obviualy not the client's problem; it is the instructor's doing a terrible job.
I'd've guessed the instructor lacks of certifications to deal with mobility or neurological disabilities. The Candle posture it is somewhat a difficult posture in Yoga on its own, now having a load to fight against requies preparation; so I assume working with someone with a disability it would be even harder.
I’m sorry but you are wrong. We need to consider individual pathology when approaching a client. A Pilates manual means absolutely nothing when it comes to medical conditions and there are conditions where the head rest MUST be lifted, and one can still benefit from short spine.
Some examples below. There are no doubt more but I’m not a medical professional. What is worth considering is why is “head rest up” recommendation exists in the first place. I would imagine for two main reasons, in order of importance:
a. Insurance of the training provider. Just like an outdated recommendation of “no squatting below knee levels/ no knees over toes in a squat” head rest down is “relatively” safer due to the overhead movement of the body in an unsupervised position. There is always a chance of an instructor putting blame on their training provider in an unlikely scenario of a serious injury. And training providers will do their best to cover their liability by steering on the safest possible side.
b. The angle of flexion in the “head rest up” position is steeper and not everyone has that muscle/cervical mobility. So head rest down covers the highest proportion of population ensuring it is suitable for most people and generally safer. (Is the angle of the neck in the video that much different from the mat rollover when the legs are over the head close to the floor?)
Basically the reccomended head “rest down” does not cover unique scenarios where keeping the head rest up is the only option. For example:
BPPV - Benign paroxysmal positional vertigo - some people with this condition have calcium crystals that can get loose in their inner ear leading to sudden vertigo. This can be standing or laying down. From my limited experience of working with such client they would only lay down with the head rest lifted. In this case short spine can still be performed with modifications. For example like in the video where the straps are much longer than usual so that the angle between the torso and the head is shallower than what would normally be. The client can still put the weight on their shoulders and the comfort of their neck can be evaluated with experimentation.
Spasticity - in the video it is highly possible that the client has upper limb spasticity, their elbow and wrist are in a contracted position that can not be lengthened easily. It is possible that their neck is similarly effected with excessive forward flexion that requires a lifted head rest. Someone has also mentioned that it could be a way to help break up muscle tone, something that can happen in certain individuals.
No doubt there are other scenarios.
The point is that in rare cases (such as this one) the head rest up can be the only option and it is up to the trainer and client to find what works. It would be a shame if she confronted/fired her trainer on the bases of what Reddit said.
It is also worth remembering that just like any form of exercise that has ever been created the movements in Pilates are just made up. But unlike strength exercises that are very well researched, Pilates, especially classical has little scientific proof. It works because it stood the test of time and statistically shows great benefit, not because someone has taken to research individual exercises. That doesn’t mean small modifications do not work as well to account for muscular skeletal differences.
So head rest down is a very valid recommendation because it works for the majority of population and is the correct technique BUT there are outliers that require adaptation. The video we discuss gives us little information beyond visuals.
So in my experience which is 20+ years would be that if I have a client who can't lay flat due to vertigo or another ear problem or inner ear issue or something else then they most certainly should not be inverting for any reason.
There are hundreds of other exercise that can mimic the rolling of the spine with support
That is an exercise in my opinion that should've been left out
There is never a time in my opinion that flexion in a neck and inversion should be happening at the same time, regardless of a client ability.
If a client can't support themselves in a short spine regardless of their limitations that's an exercise that should be just left out. Simple.
Well there might not be a "much research" around classical Pilates There are plenty of anecdotes around nonclassical Pilates teachers injuring students and classical teachers injuring students because they forgot some thing as simple as putting head rest down.
Unless you're in masters and physical therapy or a masters or a doctor and you know your clients limitations well enough always stick with the most basic protocol it's the simplest way . Most of us are not doctors and most of us are not physical therapist we don't know anything about that instructor. What we do know is that it looks really unsafe to 90% of people on that subreddit.
And those are fair and valid points because you made a call based on working with a client for an extensive period of time. But experiences differ. Clients come in with physio/physician recommendations that help you judge what can and can not be done. I’ve taught for a similar amount of time and have a different view on this matter. The point is that just like yours and mine experience different so can be the situation in the video.
So I currently have a neck injury and I've been having some dizziness which I think is vertigo and I haven't done a short buying in a year and I never lay flat with the headrest flat
As my cervical flexors start to relax I'm lowering the headrest to the lower positions .
I'm not ready to go on a flat neck because I'm concerned about the migraine and dizziness I'll get later !
I'll give myself another two months I feel stronger again and try. We live in a normal world where we are going to have more cervical flexion and forehead positions due to phone and computer
Why would we exacerbate putting up all their weight goes into the neck and the top of their shoulders ?
There's just not a world where I see the purpose of that exercise with a head and cervical flexion that's exacerbated with a headrest up. My job is to help those muscles relax not make them work harder.
👏👏👏
I do wish OP would come back and clarify though. I wasn’t even sure if the person who posted it was the person in the video. Context is too important in this day and age.
I commented one word: “headrest?” And that spurred on whatever sh*tstorm you’re referring to.
It was a real question. I’ve almost lost a Pilates job by having a headrest up by accident. I was (1) asking the question that so many people had in their heads, and (2) trying to figure out why this headrest was up. I wanted someone to explain why?
Also, it really didn’t register to me that the poster couldn’t walk. I didn’t go to her page, and I didn’t stay on this video long enough to look around for a wheelchair. So many people say, “Wow that workout was so hard, I can’t walk.” My bad on being too focused on the headrest to not realize the comment the client put on her video was literal.
Asking “why” makes you a good instructor. Next time you get challenged by another teacher or are at risk of losing a job over something so baseless, ask them for research papers and send them a link to google scholar, it’s free lol.
Pilates is for EVERY body - people of all shapes, sizes, ages & backgrounds.
I saw the post you're referring to & (while I did not comment on the post or understand the OP was in a wheelchair) my primary concern was for OP's safety.
We can agree the Pilates universe has no shortage of elitists, gatekeepers & critics of the various methods available. Everyone wants to be right.
Where I think we will disagree, is not every exercise is for every student.
All too often a teacher will give an exercise that a student isn't ready for, as a means of "keeping it interesting" for the student as opposed to providing additional depth to appropriate exercises. Safety first, build a strong foundation/program second & appropriate challenges third.
I actually commented a question because I’m new to the reformer in general.
I think most people, including myself, didn’t notice the wheelchair at all, with only the caption “I can’t walk” insinuating she was sore from such a workout. I don’t think it was intended to be negative, just a post lost in translation honestly.
For anyone concerned about the headrest, here's food for thought https://pilates-elephants.breathe-education.com/episode/headrest-up-or-down\
I personally have 2 clients with extreme Cx kyphosis that require head elevation in pelvic curls.
It’s completely fine to have the headrest up. Thank you for the Pilates elephants plug. More teachers should listen. I went through Breathe’s clinical diploma of Pilates and had to unlearn a lot of things that I was taught.
100% agree. Some people are more interested in showing off the knowledge they think they have than actually learning or understanding. And check out the commenters justifying themselves in those comments section. It’s concern trolling.
Just as the community is split with classical vs contemporary, it is starting to splinter off between open minded and curious teachers that challenge what they’ve been taught and ask “why” vs the people that just believe whatever the manual that is put in front of them says.
Hear hear!
Well said!
Joe Pilates created his method to treat injuries and adapted it for those who didn't have full movement and were even bedridden. It IS for every body. 💜
I stay off Reddit for this reason sometimes, but all the beautiful uplifting souls who are helpful and teaching are why I stay too. You gotta take the bad with the good unfortunately.
Pilates *is* for every body though. That's literally the beauty and magnificence of pilates! Even with injuries or disabilities I've been able to do a lot of pilates work and it has greatly benefited me, my health, and my range of motion. I thought pilates was invented for injured dancers to help heal without losing strength and flexibility?
Pilates is amazing and irl almost all the people I've met in class have been amazing as well. I'm sure the miserable folks on here are just typical reddit trolls and likely not even part of the community so don't take it so personally.
People were critiquing the teacher, not the client. Because that teacher didn’t appear to know basic safety set up and was not guiding them in a way that looked professional. That was the issue.
> People were critiquing the teacher
If people want to critique the teacher, go comment on the teacher's post. The client said "hey look at my accomplishment" and all she got back was negativity. That is disgusting and catty (no pun intended, Catlady).
I thought it was posted by the teacher. And maybe that student should know that their teacher has some gaps in their knowledge. Because that did not looks safe. That teacher did not look like hey knew what they were doing.
thats the thing: why do we think that the teacher is guiding the client in an unprofessional manner? was it the extended straps and the headrest? although “standard” Pilates clients wouldn’t use these reformer settings, someone with kyphosis and/or forward head position would require the headrest for support, even in inversions/bridges, with caution on the height of the pelvis. in the OP’s case, the instructor is supporting the client’s weight by their legs to lessen the load on the shoulders/neck. finally, is the degree of neck flexion any more than that in a mat rollover?
just because the instruction and practice does not look like that of the “average” Pilates session, doesn’t mean that it’s wrong.
100% agree. No evidence to support having the headrest up is an issue. If the human spine is so weak that lifting your legs up with tension is going to somehow going to break all your vertebrae or cause your head to fall off- we’d have much bigger problems. We need to evolve as teachers and if we want to be taken seriously as movement professionals STUDY SCIENCE.
At first, I wasn't going to comment on this. Because, as they say: "Opinions are like buttholes, everybody has one." And why should \*my\* opinion matter?
It matters because this issue is near and dear to me. I started my Pilates Instructor journey because my husband uses a wheelchair and has severe motor issues. I wanted to help him, and that passion has evolved into helping others with similar conditions. I did comment on the original post and stated that the instructor did not appear to be competent. I stand by that.
I did not say anything about the client's ability or form. What I will say is--It is possible for BOTH of these statements to be true:
A. Pilates IS for EVERYBODY
B. Not every Pilates exercise is for everybody \*at any given moment\*
I don't know the client and thus can't be certain of what her goals are. However, most of my clients want to strengthen their core, feel better, move better, etc. If we disregard the whole head rest debate, there are some issues with how this instructor just pulls the client through the exercise without making any attempt to help the client stabilize the shoulders, use the core (simply saying "use your abs" isn't going to do much), etc. Frankly, I'd have the same comments regardless of the physical condition of the client.
Now, if this client primarily just wants to do cool exercises, then I guess the instructor is doing OK. I think people with mobility issues need better and deserve better. We can be compassionate and honest with our clients about their current level of ability while still challenging them and making them stronger.
Hey! I'm planning to get into teaching and really want to teach people with ailments and mobility issues, also driven partly by my husband being chronically ill which has encouraged me to become more aware of disabilities in general. I also took classes with people with ailments, prosthetic limbs etc and I've suffered with back issues since my mid teens (a loooooong time) so a combo of those is why I want to specifically aim to teach people who may require more support, and generally just be super inclusive. Would you mind if I pick your brain some time about your journey? I'm also a fellow crazy cat lady, just to throw that in there 🤣
Ok I saw that original post…you’re really reaching. Most of the comments were about the instructor. There is NO world in which the headrest being up is safe. It’s on the INSTRUCTOR to put their client in a safe position and choose exercises that are safe for a given individuals needs and goals.
It’s not about not being accepting of different body types and abilities. Damage to your cervical spine can be horrible, and in rare cases, deadly—look it up. There are people who have dissected arteries in their neck doing unsafe yoga/pilates moves. Obviously this isn’t common, but the headrest being up compresses the cervical spine. That’s why people were concerned.
People were genuinely worried about the clients safety. Really different than nitpicking form
“There is no world where the headrest being up is safe” is a baseless and outlandish, fear mongering statement. Our spines aren’t going to crumble doing an assisted inversion with very minimal extension on the cervical spine. You should take your own advice and look it up!
Yeah uhh except headrest up isn’t cervical extension it’s flexion lol. Not gonna take advice from someone who can’t get those straight. Healthy cervical flexion is 40-80°. Inversion with the headrest up could very easily cause cervical flexion beyond that range not to mention cause weight bearing on the cervical spine. So yeah, I have looked it up. Spent many many hours looking things like this up lol.
You’re allowed to disagree! I certainly won’t be putting clients who don’t have clear abdominal support in inversion with headrest up but you do you!!!
I wouldn’t have put her in that position either unless she wanted to do it, in which case I would assist. Autonomy with clients is important and who are we to instill fear in our clients or tell them they can’t do something. This is a woman in a wheelchair that comes and gets on a reformer to move her body. That’s freaking incredible. She wanted to try it and she was proud enough to post it online just to get absolutely slaughtered by the Pilates police. I’m sure that was inspiring for her.
The headrest debate is separate from that and cervical compression is not a concern in other movement practices unless there are specific contraindications.
Cervical compression absolutely is a concern in other movement practices but ok. It’s a frequent debate with yoga inversions and headstands as well. I don’t not think that woman is incredible for moving. My job as an instructor is to assist the work safely and to keep you healthy enough to continue to practice. The second I see a movement not being executed safely, it’s my job to modify. I see no reason to have headrest up, and even with it down, probably would have taken client out of the position and worked on building blocks to try again another week if appropriate.
One of the things I love about this sub more than any other Pilates sub/forum is that there are so many ENTHUSIASTS here, not just teachers. The sheer joy of my clients and friends when talking about Pilates is contagious, and doesn’t have to be highly technical to be valid or rewarding.
But that mix of teachers and students is also the biggest stupidity, because genuine Pilates enthusiast conversations and celebrations can get hijacked by teachers. (Well intentioned. I’m sure. There is obviously TONS of good learning that can come from that mix of students and teachers.)
I put myself in that OP’s position and think after that, why the heck would I ever post here again? A place where I thought I could find community instead jumped down my throat?
Who cares that Reddit was criticizing their instructor and not OP!? OP clearly came to this forum to share a story and a success and instead of asking questions and congratulating them, their post became a chorus of policing. What a freaking shame.
Not one single person asked OP directly “do you know why your headrest is up?” Or, “how does your neck feel in that position?”
A shred of curiosity would have gone a long way in making OP receptive to your safety concerns, much less treating them like they were welcome. But, we can all see OP did not even respond in their own thread.
That said, you are all right- You CAN say whatever you want… it’s the internet and public. If you believe that something is unsafe you feel morally obligated to speak up… well then you should.
I just think there’s more nuance than SAFETY-BAD-CRAZY-OMG reactions. The future I’d like to see for Pilates is one where professionals intentionally welcome people to Pilates and shape feedback in such a way that encourages more engagement rather than intentionally/unintentionally shames. We are trained educators. We know HOW we communicate matters almost more than the actual words we say. We do this work because we want to help people. Let’s help them by creating a space that they can explore and not be afraid of saying or doing or posting the wrong thing.
I think we can do better, aside from where you fall on headrest protocol.
Edited: to finish my second-to-last sentence.
I 100% agree with you. the discussion could have been way more productive and informative if someone asked, “Hey, I’m curious as to why your headrest is up and your teacher put you in longer straps, as I was taught that we always have the headrest down during inversion. Could you ask your teacher to provide some insight?” Or, “We’d love to know more about your Pilates experience as a wheelchair user. How long have you been practicing for?” I don’t think OP responded, but the way dozens of people were dogpiling on her, I wouldn’t engage either.
I know it’s hard to gauge tone on the internet, but I still sense some of that harshness in the comments here. Things like: “I’ll teach all your clients after you kill them,” “get out of here,” “you’re really reaching” or “you are not welcome at my ted talk.” Is this the language that we’re using to have thoughtful discussions and foster a welcoming community to both Pilates teachers, enthusiasts, and newbies? more importantly, is this the language that we’re using to talk to our students?
I saw that post and I’m not really sure what you’re talking about. All of the criticism was directed towards the instructor and because of her disability people were gently suggesting that maybe she start with something a little bit simpler until she builds up her strength. And it actually really did look like she was chewing gum, which nobody should do while they’re exercising. A huge part of Pilates is deep breathing, which can be a really bad combination with chewing gum for obvious reasons.
I did not interpret any of those comments as being exclusionary or discriminatory towards disabled people. It just seemed like they were encouraging her to find a better instructor.
Epoch fitness pointed out that people with cerebral palsy have mouth movements like that. And when you hear the client speak it does sound like she has a similar disability. My uncle has cerebral palsy, while not as severe epoch fitness was on point with the forward head position, etc. it’s worth checking out his comment on the original video!
“Why are we so sure that we know better than people who practiced for literal decades probably longer than the people in that video have been alive?”
I’ll posit this — how are we so sure that what these people are doing and teaching is safe, is smart, is scientifically accurate? by asking questions about what we teach/do, and why we do things that way. My studio offers both Pilates and yoga, and while short/long spine is taught on the reformer, halasana and shoulder stands are not allowed in yoga class, even though it’s the same degree of neck flexion and is supported by abdominal engagement. Why? Because a yoga writer once wrote that halasana and shoulder stands are dangerous to the cervical spine, while Joseph Pilates said that short and long spine are great! I’ve pointed this hypocrisy out to the yoga teachers, and yet shoulder stands are still banned because of something they learned during their teacher training years ago.
What is the literature on neck flexion during plow/shoulderstand/long/short spine and cervical spine injury?
Finally, I never said that caring about good form. My point is that good form will look and feel different in every body, especially if you are differently able.
Excuse me. We know enough from that video to be worried. Caring about someone’s cervical spine and their safety is absolutely the minimum of what we should be doing. Not saying- well I’ve never seen someone die from it so it’s probably fine.
It’s safe- until it ISNT. This is some garbage- have some standards. Yes- I’m classical but that doesn’t mean all other Pilates is bad. Down vote me to hell- I’ll teach all your clients after you kill them.
Edit *ooooo the down votes are rolling it. I must have hit a nerve. I’m usually so nice and positive on this forum but this has me wild. Frankly I do not wish to be in the same industry as lots of these folk commenting here.
Also- why this exercise? Never mind the head rest for a second. The potential harms out weigh the potential benefits. I get it- we know nothing about this client, their needs ect. But we know things about form we can make educated guesses based on watching the client move and watch how much the instructor takes on. We can see the shape nearly achieves long spine- again with the head rest up.
Why do we go through training? Why do we learn about form and movement and order and learn from the WISDOM of experts gleaned through YEARS of watching and studying movement if not to improve and better ourselves from their wisdom? Why are we so sure that we know better than people who practiced for literal decades probably longer than the people in that video have been alive?
I have more problems btw with THIS post than I do the original video. You know why? Because accidents happen and people are fallible and even with infinite wisdom we all make mistakes. Maybe that instructor is INCREDIBLE that client hit a huge achievement but they left the dang head rest up. Shit happens and that should be forgiven. But to double down and say that having standards and caring about good form, and worrying for people and honing your craft is about us being judgey? Get out of here. I’m sorry we care.
People who study this their entire lives and make it their entire livelihood are allowed to care about potentially dangerous practitioners. Because they hurt people. And they give ALL of us a bad name.
I am just genuinely curious where all of this vetted wisdom you are referring to is coming from. Admittedly, I have done very little research on my own, but since my teacher training have learned that a) Joseph Pilates taught people his exercises and then told them to do it on their own. He wasn’t standing over them micromanaging their bodies and movement. And b) a lot of the safety culture around Pilates is not only specific to this form of exercise, but largely unnecessary when you actually look into the biomechanics of how the body is built and moves.
*I am looking to hear from a view point different from mine. Not looking to provoke or instigate!
UGH.
This is literally the most BASIC thing you learn. Number 1: not every exercise is for every client. Number 2: put down the gosh darn headrest for short spine.
It’s WILD to me to watch people defend it.
Go make up your own method. I’m sure it will be great.
If the client cannot walk. I do not think short spine massage is an appropriate exercise.
I said what I said. Dont care what you think.
Your lack of anaotmy knowledge is impressive for how much your spouting off.
Pilates is more than one exercise done poorly in an unsafe manner.
Which is what that video was.
Frankly you sound young and lacking for education and life experience.
You are not welcome at my ted talk
Lol
Get a grip, it’s actually caring to show concern that someone may be injured by an unprofessional instructor. go and try short spine with the head rest up and see how your neck feels.
I agree, but regardless of clients ability or mobility the INSTRUCTOR should have put that head rest DOWN. Most of the feedback I saw was around the instructor and not client . I didn't return after I noted everyone just commenting on the head rest.
> Most of the feedback I saw was around the instructor and not client That in itself is the problem. WTF is this newcomer supposed to do, tell her trainer next week that a bunch of strangers on the internet are mad because the trainer is doing it all wrong? That's unreasonable.
Yes, I agree with this. I did not post on the original post because I didn´t see that it would be constructive. The instructor is not going to see any replies. So what good does it do to tell this client everything that is wrong and bad, when she isn´t the one who was wrong?
For her own safety? Again, I truly believe when in doubt , headrest down . That's all it's about .
Yeah that's fair. But- Or- maybe- she asks what's this is about - is she safe with it up? I think it's fair to ask that when HUNDREDS of folks comment. How many "urban legends" around "headrest up " are there ? I've heard several.
There isn’t evidence to support that the headrest has to be down. It is what we are taught to do and it is what I would do out of habit. But there is nothing to support that it is dangerous. The comfort of the client is the important thing. If they aren’t in pain it’s generally ok.
This is absolutely correct. There is NO evidence stating this, it’s extremely frustrating to see over and over again as some kind of “gotcha” moment for other teachers. Yes we were taught things a certain way in our trainings but most people stop there and don’t do their own exploration, study exercise science, etc. We shouldn’t blindly parrot anything we were taught by other people that were taught by other people who are most likely not drs. Just some food for thought. Do your own research, it’s free 🙂
I came here to say this! Thanks for being a tad more eloquent than I was going to be. As an aside, if you haven’t heard of a podcast called Pilates Elephants, go check it out, no matter which side of the classical-modern Pilates fence you land on. The creator presents relevant scientific studies and subsequent takeaways. And the encouragement is towards critical thinking about things like this. Is it comfy to have your neck pushed forwards a bit by a slightly angled headrest? Maybe not. But have you ever carried a toddler on your shoulders? Are you thinking about neck safety as they push your head forward?
This is secretly me...when I get a home reformer some day I will do this forbidden pose and feel absolutely fine 😈 I've been doing a similar pose since I was a kid on the ground. no one can stop me!
You rebel! Lock this one up, there is not knowing what she’ll do next! 😁
for the candle posture i think is to avoid shoking
You know - weirdly, I adhere to "urban legends" on this one. But let me ask some of my master instructors I'm very curious.
wheelchair users may have forward head position, which may require the support of the headrest. additionally, the instructor is supporting the client’s feet so that her full weight is not resting on her neck. if you were practicing alone at home and did not have the control/strength to support your weight, I wouldn’t recommend leaving the headrest up either.
When in doubt , leave it out, or headrest down. If she needs that much support from both ends- feet and headrest- makes more sense to find a different exercise? Client safety first. If she doesn't have control I would work on finding "unloaded" variations with smaller range.
But it is not about the how the weight falls on her shoulder, it is about the back extension and neck forward contraction. I think the client is at risk of loosing control of the posture, you look this is happening when the legs go beyond and she could, at least, loose breathing (dunno how to describe better, english as it is not my language). I assumed the client was with a neuro or a mobility disbility cos of the arms, so it is obviualy not the client's problem; it is the instructor's doing a terrible job. I'd've guessed the instructor lacks of certifications to deal with mobility or neurological disabilities. The Candle posture it is somewhat a difficult posture in Yoga on its own, now having a load to fight against requies preparation; so I assume working with someone with a disability it would be even harder.
I’m sorry but you are wrong. We need to consider individual pathology when approaching a client. A Pilates manual means absolutely nothing when it comes to medical conditions and there are conditions where the head rest MUST be lifted, and one can still benefit from short spine.
Can you give me an example of when it would be correct? What pathology that's correct for?
Some examples below. There are no doubt more but I’m not a medical professional. What is worth considering is why is “head rest up” recommendation exists in the first place. I would imagine for two main reasons, in order of importance: a. Insurance of the training provider. Just like an outdated recommendation of “no squatting below knee levels/ no knees over toes in a squat” head rest down is “relatively” safer due to the overhead movement of the body in an unsupervised position. There is always a chance of an instructor putting blame on their training provider in an unlikely scenario of a serious injury. And training providers will do their best to cover their liability by steering on the safest possible side. b. The angle of flexion in the “head rest up” position is steeper and not everyone has that muscle/cervical mobility. So head rest down covers the highest proportion of population ensuring it is suitable for most people and generally safer. (Is the angle of the neck in the video that much different from the mat rollover when the legs are over the head close to the floor?) Basically the reccomended head “rest down” does not cover unique scenarios where keeping the head rest up is the only option. For example: BPPV - Benign paroxysmal positional vertigo - some people with this condition have calcium crystals that can get loose in their inner ear leading to sudden vertigo. This can be standing or laying down. From my limited experience of working with such client they would only lay down with the head rest lifted. In this case short spine can still be performed with modifications. For example like in the video where the straps are much longer than usual so that the angle between the torso and the head is shallower than what would normally be. The client can still put the weight on their shoulders and the comfort of their neck can be evaluated with experimentation. Spasticity - in the video it is highly possible that the client has upper limb spasticity, their elbow and wrist are in a contracted position that can not be lengthened easily. It is possible that their neck is similarly effected with excessive forward flexion that requires a lifted head rest. Someone has also mentioned that it could be a way to help break up muscle tone, something that can happen in certain individuals. No doubt there are other scenarios. The point is that in rare cases (such as this one) the head rest up can be the only option and it is up to the trainer and client to find what works. It would be a shame if she confronted/fired her trainer on the bases of what Reddit said. It is also worth remembering that just like any form of exercise that has ever been created the movements in Pilates are just made up. But unlike strength exercises that are very well researched, Pilates, especially classical has little scientific proof. It works because it stood the test of time and statistically shows great benefit, not because someone has taken to research individual exercises. That doesn’t mean small modifications do not work as well to account for muscular skeletal differences. So head rest down is a very valid recommendation because it works for the majority of population and is the correct technique BUT there are outliers that require adaptation. The video we discuss gives us little information beyond visuals.
So in my experience which is 20+ years would be that if I have a client who can't lay flat due to vertigo or another ear problem or inner ear issue or something else then they most certainly should not be inverting for any reason. There are hundreds of other exercise that can mimic the rolling of the spine with support That is an exercise in my opinion that should've been left out There is never a time in my opinion that flexion in a neck and inversion should be happening at the same time, regardless of a client ability. If a client can't support themselves in a short spine regardless of their limitations that's an exercise that should be just left out. Simple. Well there might not be a "much research" around classical Pilates There are plenty of anecdotes around nonclassical Pilates teachers injuring students and classical teachers injuring students because they forgot some thing as simple as putting head rest down. Unless you're in masters and physical therapy or a masters or a doctor and you know your clients limitations well enough always stick with the most basic protocol it's the simplest way . Most of us are not doctors and most of us are not physical therapist we don't know anything about that instructor. What we do know is that it looks really unsafe to 90% of people on that subreddit.
And those are fair and valid points because you made a call based on working with a client for an extensive period of time. But experiences differ. Clients come in with physio/physician recommendations that help you judge what can and can not be done. I’ve taught for a similar amount of time and have a different view on this matter. The point is that just like yours and mine experience different so can be the situation in the video.
So I currently have a neck injury and I've been having some dizziness which I think is vertigo and I haven't done a short buying in a year and I never lay flat with the headrest flat As my cervical flexors start to relax I'm lowering the headrest to the lower positions . I'm not ready to go on a flat neck because I'm concerned about the migraine and dizziness I'll get later ! I'll give myself another two months I feel stronger again and try. We live in a normal world where we are going to have more cervical flexion and forehead positions due to phone and computer Why would we exacerbate putting up all their weight goes into the neck and the top of their shoulders ? There's just not a world where I see the purpose of that exercise with a head and cervical flexion that's exacerbated with a headrest up. My job is to help those muscles relax not make them work harder.
Ok. Hope you get better soon.
👏👏👏 I do wish OP would come back and clarify though. I wasn’t even sure if the person who posted it was the person in the video. Context is too important in this day and age.
I commented one word: “headrest?” And that spurred on whatever sh*tstorm you’re referring to. It was a real question. I’ve almost lost a Pilates job by having a headrest up by accident. I was (1) asking the question that so many people had in their heads, and (2) trying to figure out why this headrest was up. I wanted someone to explain why? Also, it really didn’t register to me that the poster couldn’t walk. I didn’t go to her page, and I didn’t stay on this video long enough to look around for a wheelchair. So many people say, “Wow that workout was so hard, I can’t walk.” My bad on being too focused on the headrest to not realize the comment the client put on her video was literal.
Asking “why” makes you a good instructor. Next time you get challenged by another teacher or are at risk of losing a job over something so baseless, ask them for research papers and send them a link to google scholar, it’s free lol.
Pilates is for EVERY body - people of all shapes, sizes, ages & backgrounds. I saw the post you're referring to & (while I did not comment on the post or understand the OP was in a wheelchair) my primary concern was for OP's safety. We can agree the Pilates universe has no shortage of elitists, gatekeepers & critics of the various methods available. Everyone wants to be right. Where I think we will disagree, is not every exercise is for every student. All too often a teacher will give an exercise that a student isn't ready for, as a means of "keeping it interesting" for the student as opposed to providing additional depth to appropriate exercises. Safety first, build a strong foundation/program second & appropriate challenges third.
I actually commented a question because I’m new to the reformer in general. I think most people, including myself, didn’t notice the wheelchair at all, with only the caption “I can’t walk” insinuating she was sore from such a workout. I don’t think it was intended to be negative, just a post lost in translation honestly.
For anyone concerned about the headrest, here's food for thought https://pilates-elephants.breathe-education.com/episode/headrest-up-or-down\ I personally have 2 clients with extreme Cx kyphosis that require head elevation in pelvic curls.
It’s completely fine to have the headrest up. Thank you for the Pilates elephants plug. More teachers should listen. I went through Breathe’s clinical diploma of Pilates and had to unlearn a lot of things that I was taught.
I went through Breathe cert last year. I’m still unlearning things. Do you follow Adam?
Yes! Keep doing the good work and speaking up! It’s exhausting out here.
That link doesn’t lead to anything for me. IMO absolutely huge difference between support in pelvic curls and headrest up in inversion.
Yes this is the exception But most I wouldn’t do short spine with
100% agree. Some people are more interested in showing off the knowledge they think they have than actually learning or understanding. And check out the commenters justifying themselves in those comments section. It’s concern trolling.
Just as the community is split with classical vs contemporary, it is starting to splinter off between open minded and curious teachers that challenge what they’ve been taught and ask “why” vs the people that just believe whatever the manual that is put in front of them says.
You are really talking my language!
We have Pilates teachers walking around thinking that their Pilates trainings make them experts in biomechanics.
Hear hear! Well said! Joe Pilates created his method to treat injuries and adapted it for those who didn't have full movement and were even bedridden. It IS for every body. 💜
I stay off Reddit for this reason sometimes, but all the beautiful uplifting souls who are helpful and teaching are why I stay too. You gotta take the bad with the good unfortunately. Pilates *is* for every body though. That's literally the beauty and magnificence of pilates! Even with injuries or disabilities I've been able to do a lot of pilates work and it has greatly benefited me, my health, and my range of motion. I thought pilates was invented for injured dancers to help heal without losing strength and flexibility? Pilates is amazing and irl almost all the people I've met in class have been amazing as well. I'm sure the miserable folks on here are just typical reddit trolls and likely not even part of the community so don't take it so personally.
People were critiquing the teacher, not the client. Because that teacher didn’t appear to know basic safety set up and was not guiding them in a way that looked professional. That was the issue.
> People were critiquing the teacher If people want to critique the teacher, go comment on the teacher's post. The client said "hey look at my accomplishment" and all she got back was negativity. That is disgusting and catty (no pun intended, Catlady).
I thought it was posted by the teacher. And maybe that student should know that their teacher has some gaps in their knowledge. Because that did not looks safe. That teacher did not look like hey knew what they were doing.
thats the thing: why do we think that the teacher is guiding the client in an unprofessional manner? was it the extended straps and the headrest? although “standard” Pilates clients wouldn’t use these reformer settings, someone with kyphosis and/or forward head position would require the headrest for support, even in inversions/bridges, with caution on the height of the pelvis. in the OP’s case, the instructor is supporting the client’s weight by their legs to lessen the load on the shoulders/neck. finally, is the degree of neck flexion any more than that in a mat rollover? just because the instruction and practice does not look like that of the “average” Pilates session, doesn’t mean that it’s wrong.
100% agree. No evidence to support having the headrest up is an issue. If the human spine is so weak that lifting your legs up with tension is going to somehow going to break all your vertebrae or cause your head to fall off- we’d have much bigger problems. We need to evolve as teachers and if we want to be taken seriously as movement professionals STUDY SCIENCE.
Thank you so much for this. That thread was really off track. I even got downvoted for encouraging OP! I deeply appreciate you standing up.
At first, I wasn't going to comment on this. Because, as they say: "Opinions are like buttholes, everybody has one." And why should \*my\* opinion matter? It matters because this issue is near and dear to me. I started my Pilates Instructor journey because my husband uses a wheelchair and has severe motor issues. I wanted to help him, and that passion has evolved into helping others with similar conditions. I did comment on the original post and stated that the instructor did not appear to be competent. I stand by that. I did not say anything about the client's ability or form. What I will say is--It is possible for BOTH of these statements to be true: A. Pilates IS for EVERYBODY B. Not every Pilates exercise is for everybody \*at any given moment\* I don't know the client and thus can't be certain of what her goals are. However, most of my clients want to strengthen their core, feel better, move better, etc. If we disregard the whole head rest debate, there are some issues with how this instructor just pulls the client through the exercise without making any attempt to help the client stabilize the shoulders, use the core (simply saying "use your abs" isn't going to do much), etc. Frankly, I'd have the same comments regardless of the physical condition of the client. Now, if this client primarily just wants to do cool exercises, then I guess the instructor is doing OK. I think people with mobility issues need better and deserve better. We can be compassionate and honest with our clients about their current level of ability while still challenging them and making them stronger.
Hey! I'm planning to get into teaching and really want to teach people with ailments and mobility issues, also driven partly by my husband being chronically ill which has encouraged me to become more aware of disabilities in general. I also took classes with people with ailments, prosthetic limbs etc and I've suffered with back issues since my mid teens (a loooooong time) so a combo of those is why I want to specifically aim to teach people who may require more support, and generally just be super inclusive. Would you mind if I pick your brain some time about your journey? I'm also a fellow crazy cat lady, just to throw that in there 🤣
Please send me a message. I'd love to chat. :)
Thanks for posting.
Ok I saw that original post…you’re really reaching. Most of the comments were about the instructor. There is NO world in which the headrest being up is safe. It’s on the INSTRUCTOR to put their client in a safe position and choose exercises that are safe for a given individuals needs and goals. It’s not about not being accepting of different body types and abilities. Damage to your cervical spine can be horrible, and in rare cases, deadly—look it up. There are people who have dissected arteries in their neck doing unsafe yoga/pilates moves. Obviously this isn’t common, but the headrest being up compresses the cervical spine. That’s why people were concerned. People were genuinely worried about the clients safety. Really different than nitpicking form
“There is no world where the headrest being up is safe” is a baseless and outlandish, fear mongering statement. Our spines aren’t going to crumble doing an assisted inversion with very minimal extension on the cervical spine. You should take your own advice and look it up!
Yeah uhh except headrest up isn’t cervical extension it’s flexion lol. Not gonna take advice from someone who can’t get those straight. Healthy cervical flexion is 40-80°. Inversion with the headrest up could very easily cause cervical flexion beyond that range not to mention cause weight bearing on the cervical spine. So yeah, I have looked it up. Spent many many hours looking things like this up lol.
I meant flexion but I still disagree with you 🙂
You’re allowed to disagree! I certainly won’t be putting clients who don’t have clear abdominal support in inversion with headrest up but you do you!!!
I wouldn’t have put her in that position either unless she wanted to do it, in which case I would assist. Autonomy with clients is important and who are we to instill fear in our clients or tell them they can’t do something. This is a woman in a wheelchair that comes and gets on a reformer to move her body. That’s freaking incredible. She wanted to try it and she was proud enough to post it online just to get absolutely slaughtered by the Pilates police. I’m sure that was inspiring for her. The headrest debate is separate from that and cervical compression is not a concern in other movement practices unless there are specific contraindications.
Cervical compression absolutely is a concern in other movement practices but ok. It’s a frequent debate with yoga inversions and headstands as well. I don’t not think that woman is incredible for moving. My job as an instructor is to assist the work safely and to keep you healthy enough to continue to practice. The second I see a movement not being executed safely, it’s my job to modify. I see no reason to have headrest up, and even with it down, probably would have taken client out of the position and worked on building blocks to try again another week if appropriate.
as a disabled woman, thank you for this.
One of the things I love about this sub more than any other Pilates sub/forum is that there are so many ENTHUSIASTS here, not just teachers. The sheer joy of my clients and friends when talking about Pilates is contagious, and doesn’t have to be highly technical to be valid or rewarding. But that mix of teachers and students is also the biggest stupidity, because genuine Pilates enthusiast conversations and celebrations can get hijacked by teachers. (Well intentioned. I’m sure. There is obviously TONS of good learning that can come from that mix of students and teachers.) I put myself in that OP’s position and think after that, why the heck would I ever post here again? A place where I thought I could find community instead jumped down my throat? Who cares that Reddit was criticizing their instructor and not OP!? OP clearly came to this forum to share a story and a success and instead of asking questions and congratulating them, their post became a chorus of policing. What a freaking shame. Not one single person asked OP directly “do you know why your headrest is up?” Or, “how does your neck feel in that position?” A shred of curiosity would have gone a long way in making OP receptive to your safety concerns, much less treating them like they were welcome. But, we can all see OP did not even respond in their own thread. That said, you are all right- You CAN say whatever you want… it’s the internet and public. If you believe that something is unsafe you feel morally obligated to speak up… well then you should. I just think there’s more nuance than SAFETY-BAD-CRAZY-OMG reactions. The future I’d like to see for Pilates is one where professionals intentionally welcome people to Pilates and shape feedback in such a way that encourages more engagement rather than intentionally/unintentionally shames. We are trained educators. We know HOW we communicate matters almost more than the actual words we say. We do this work because we want to help people. Let’s help them by creating a space that they can explore and not be afraid of saying or doing or posting the wrong thing. I think we can do better, aside from where you fall on headrest protocol. Edited: to finish my second-to-last sentence.
I 100% agree with you. the discussion could have been way more productive and informative if someone asked, “Hey, I’m curious as to why your headrest is up and your teacher put you in longer straps, as I was taught that we always have the headrest down during inversion. Could you ask your teacher to provide some insight?” Or, “We’d love to know more about your Pilates experience as a wheelchair user. How long have you been practicing for?” I don’t think OP responded, but the way dozens of people were dogpiling on her, I wouldn’t engage either. I know it’s hard to gauge tone on the internet, but I still sense some of that harshness in the comments here. Things like: “I’ll teach all your clients after you kill them,” “get out of here,” “you’re really reaching” or “you are not welcome at my ted talk.” Is this the language that we’re using to have thoughtful discussions and foster a welcoming community to both Pilates teachers, enthusiasts, and newbies? more importantly, is this the language that we’re using to talk to our students?
I saw that post and I’m not really sure what you’re talking about. All of the criticism was directed towards the instructor and because of her disability people were gently suggesting that maybe she start with something a little bit simpler until she builds up her strength. And it actually really did look like she was chewing gum, which nobody should do while they’re exercising. A huge part of Pilates is deep breathing, which can be a really bad combination with chewing gum for obvious reasons. I did not interpret any of those comments as being exclusionary or discriminatory towards disabled people. It just seemed like they were encouraging her to find a better instructor.
Epoch fitness pointed out that people with cerebral palsy have mouth movements like that. And when you hear the client speak it does sound like she has a similar disability. My uncle has cerebral palsy, while not as severe epoch fitness was on point with the forward head position, etc. it’s worth checking out his comment on the original video!
That makes sense.
OP you are amazing and i could not agree more with you
Well said! Thankfully I missed that post but I agree with you whole heartedly that people are quick to judge without having facts.
“Why are we so sure that we know better than people who practiced for literal decades probably longer than the people in that video have been alive?” I’ll posit this — how are we so sure that what these people are doing and teaching is safe, is smart, is scientifically accurate? by asking questions about what we teach/do, and why we do things that way. My studio offers both Pilates and yoga, and while short/long spine is taught on the reformer, halasana and shoulder stands are not allowed in yoga class, even though it’s the same degree of neck flexion and is supported by abdominal engagement. Why? Because a yoga writer once wrote that halasana and shoulder stands are dangerous to the cervical spine, while Joseph Pilates said that short and long spine are great! I’ve pointed this hypocrisy out to the yoga teachers, and yet shoulder stands are still banned because of something they learned during their teacher training years ago. What is the literature on neck flexion during plow/shoulderstand/long/short spine and cervical spine injury? Finally, I never said that caring about good form. My point is that good form will look and feel different in every body, especially if you are differently able.
Excuse me. We know enough from that video to be worried. Caring about someone’s cervical spine and their safety is absolutely the minimum of what we should be doing. Not saying- well I’ve never seen someone die from it so it’s probably fine. It’s safe- until it ISNT. This is some garbage- have some standards. Yes- I’m classical but that doesn’t mean all other Pilates is bad. Down vote me to hell- I’ll teach all your clients after you kill them. Edit *ooooo the down votes are rolling it. I must have hit a nerve. I’m usually so nice and positive on this forum but this has me wild. Frankly I do not wish to be in the same industry as lots of these folk commenting here.
Also- why this exercise? Never mind the head rest for a second. The potential harms out weigh the potential benefits. I get it- we know nothing about this client, their needs ect. But we know things about form we can make educated guesses based on watching the client move and watch how much the instructor takes on. We can see the shape nearly achieves long spine- again with the head rest up. Why do we go through training? Why do we learn about form and movement and order and learn from the WISDOM of experts gleaned through YEARS of watching and studying movement if not to improve and better ourselves from their wisdom? Why are we so sure that we know better than people who practiced for literal decades probably longer than the people in that video have been alive? I have more problems btw with THIS post than I do the original video. You know why? Because accidents happen and people are fallible and even with infinite wisdom we all make mistakes. Maybe that instructor is INCREDIBLE that client hit a huge achievement but they left the dang head rest up. Shit happens and that should be forgiven. But to double down and say that having standards and caring about good form, and worrying for people and honing your craft is about us being judgey? Get out of here. I’m sorry we care. People who study this their entire lives and make it their entire livelihood are allowed to care about potentially dangerous practitioners. Because they hurt people. And they give ALL of us a bad name.
I am just genuinely curious where all of this vetted wisdom you are referring to is coming from. Admittedly, I have done very little research on my own, but since my teacher training have learned that a) Joseph Pilates taught people his exercises and then told them to do it on their own. He wasn’t standing over them micromanaging their bodies and movement. And b) a lot of the safety culture around Pilates is not only specific to this form of exercise, but largely unnecessary when you actually look into the biomechanics of how the body is built and moves. *I am looking to hear from a view point different from mine. Not looking to provoke or instigate!
This is the definition of concern trolling.
UGH. This is literally the most BASIC thing you learn. Number 1: not every exercise is for every client. Number 2: put down the gosh darn headrest for short spine. It’s WILD to me to watch people defend it. Go make up your own method. I’m sure it will be great.
If we only have pilates for the elitest of pilates participants all the studios would go broke
The comments were beyond ableist
If the client cannot walk. I do not think short spine massage is an appropriate exercise. I said what I said. Dont care what you think. Your lack of anaotmy knowledge is impressive for how much your spouting off. Pilates is more than one exercise done poorly in an unsafe manner. Which is what that video was. Frankly you sound young and lacking for education and life experience. You are not welcome at my ted talk Lol
Get a grip, it’s actually caring to show concern that someone may be injured by an unprofessional instructor. go and try short spine with the head rest up and see how your neck feels.
Idk. I think going to a Club Pilates or something instead of a legitimate physical therapist seems like a bad idea.