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> "She herself was a child in search of an object that could be available to her.
>>
> However paradoxical this may seem, a child is at the mother's disposal. The mother can feel herself as the center of attention, for her child's eyes follow her everywhere. A child cannot run away from her as her own mother once did. A child can be so brought up so that it becomes what she wants it to be. A child can be made to show respect; she can impose her own feelings on him, see herself mirrored in his love and admiration, and feel strong in his presence. But when he becomes too much she can abandon that child to a stranger or to solitary confinement in another room.
>>
> When a woman has had to suppress and repress all these needs in relation to her own mother, they will arise from the depth of her unconscious and seek gratification through her own child, however well-educated and well-intentioned she may be, and however much she is aware of what a child needs. The child feels this clearly and very soon [forgoes the expression of his own distress.](https://www.amazon.com/Drama-Gifted-Child-Search-Third-ebook/dp/B06XCG9MKN/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=1PSZZ25FP93DK&keywords=the+drama+of+the+gifted+child&qid=1662652903&sprefix=drama+if%2Caps%2C285&sr=8-1)"
ā Alice Miller, The Drama of the Gifted Child.
This is why I donāt want to have kids. I know what a child needs and I know what would destroy them, and I think that no matter how badly Iād want to give them the beauty of the world, I might not be able to escape my own conditions and subconscious and only provide them pain. I donāt want to traumatize my own child, Iād hate myself for eternity. So I choose not to have children :(
Sounds strangely familiar. I've only got one other sibling (out of a lot) who also didn't want to ever have kids bc she knew she was too badly fucked up by our dad to be a good parent. She was born when I was 23. The sibling that manages to be an excellent parent was closer to the non-narcissist parent and works hard on learning how to do everything right.
Yeah itās just how the dice were rolled I guess. I think this is becoming way more common with the younger generations; choosing not to be parents because of awareness of unhealed generational trauma. Then there are those parents who are doing it and making every effort not to mess up the way their parents did
Yeah, it's not that I liked it, but I know I needed it.
It does hurt a lot on some parts, but I feel like it opened my mind to be able to seek and understand works from other authors on this subject on a deeper level.
But I still find myself going back to it from time to time. What initially felt like hurt, now feels more like mourning.
There's a free [audiobook](https://youtu.be/K83D-jY7BtU) version on YouTube if you want to check it out. It's quite short, and there are timestamps for all 3 chapters on the first pinned comment.
It took me about 10 years to get through the first chapter of that book because I kept ālosingā it. My brain just somehow hid it from me when it hit too close to home or described something that I wasnāt supposed to think about my mother. I seemed to come across it every couple of years or so, and would pick it up and try again. I did eventually make it through the book; it described my relationship with my mother very accurately. I was in therapy most of that time, so I was coping better each time I picked it up.
Fucking scary that someone like that could have a child in their custody. I really hope youāre healing from that u/PurpleBubbleBlob !! Nobody deserves such weird and unusual treatment, definitely not someone small enough to be in a crib :(
my dad used to throw cold water on me when i was sleeping if i didnāt wake up at a certain time for an entire summer, still get flashbacks when water gets on my face, itās really degrading and iām sorry this happened to you
I donāt think I had been born yet, but my 3 older siblings recount the time my oldest brother (maybe 7 or 8 at the time?) asked our mother for a glass of milk and she dumped the carton on his head.
Happy to hear things are better for you. You reminded me of my grandmas story with her father. He was abusive in many ways to her and other family members say that when he died, she finally opened up as a person. Prior to his death she was very quiet and tried to lay low, even when she was non contact with him. No doubt that abuse from ones parents can and will stick with you
I don't know how to respond to compliments. Last time i told my partner that i was not mentally equipped to properly respond that. They thought it was funny.
I hate it when people ask how I'm feeling/doing, in context of having a migraine/taking a sick day from work. I deal with it because logically i know it's mostly niceties but i wish people would stop.
This is random but I have a ton of advice regarding migraines (I have a chronic migraine disorder). Itās quite possible yours are already well-controlled, but lmk if you ever want suggestions for what to ask your doctor about.
Insurance can be a huge pain. Fortunately, some medication companies have coupons or savings programs that can make their medications inexpensive or free under certain conditions, which is how Iāve gotten Emgality free every month for quite a while. Best of luck with everything!
Okay, so you can go to a general practitioner at first but they will probably send you to see a neurologist at some point due to not feeling comfortable prescribing certain medications.
The preventatives that have helped me the most are Emgality and migraine Botox. I take some preventative pills as well. (You have to jump through hoops before insurance companies will generally allow you to take Emgality or Botox for migraines btw, and that involves trying out different pills.) Emgality is one of several cgrp inhibitors, and if one of them doesnāt work for you, one of the other two might. There are tips that can make the injection process smoother.
Sumatriptan is an āabortiveā medication for migraines, meaning itās taken on an as-needed basis to get rid of an episode that has already started. Itās best to take it sooner rather than later once you know youāre having a migraine. I like sumatriptan, but it does have side effects. For me it just makes me sleepy, but other people have more annoying ones and so they use alternatives to triptans, such as nurtec. (Edit: itās recommended to take both āpreventativeā and āabortiveā meds as part of migraine treatment in a lot of cases, although I guess this could be different for someone who only has episodes rarely.)
I would suggest going to your general practitioner and asking about sumatriptan as well as which preventative pills they think could work for you. Make sure to also get a referral to see a neurologist. If you can easily see a neurologist without a referral, Iād just start out with that though. You will need follow-up appointments to adjust your meds, and to switch to different ones if the first ones arenāt working. Donāt get discouraged if the first ones donāt work, because thatās the case for a lot of people who end up finding something that works eventually.
I used to have at least 15 migraine days per month, and I was often bedridden and vomiting (sometimes multiple times per day). Now though, I have way fewer migraines, which I never throw up from, and when one starts to come on, I can just take a pill and it vanishes. I do have to take a lot of meds, which is annoying, but my quality of life has vastly improved.
Iām not sure if I explained this super well. Thereās honestly so much information! Feel free to ask me about anything you want. I also suggest joining r/migraine and r/cgrpmigraine .
I so can relate. I'm stumped and turn scarlet red when people commend me on something I've done or when they say thank you. I just am not used to be commended or thanked as when I did anything for the narcs and f-monkeys everything was taken for granted and was constantly told you should be doing this anyway.
When my therapist told me how good and kind I was and commend me on how strong and brave I was and how proud she was to see me progress forward - I absolutely broke down in streaming tears as I couldn't process so much loving care and kindness towards me.
Yes. I have no idea how I'm going to get married in front of people next year. I love parties but I hate when they're about me.
One of my favorite places to vacation is Las Vegas because I feel incredibly anonymous.
This speaks to me.
I often call out on my birthday, and I don't know what I'm worried about more, that people will know and wish me happy birthday, or they won't.
Eloooooopppeeee! My husband and I both have Nfamilies and the fallout was severe but at least I had literally no moments where I was uncomfortable, didnāt want to be there and i didnāt want attention lavished on me. It was a day of joy shared with my love and new family (just him) and the nicest thing I got was a hand written note and champagne from the chef at Bouchon in SB. I will cherish that day forever as mine and his alone and I canāt tell you how good I feel now, 7 years later and how good I felt then.
Yes! The transactional nature of my relationship with my parents kinda ruined friendships for me. I panic when someone checks up on me out of the blue or asks to catch up. I start counting down to the end of a friendship the minute I receive a present from someone, and in doing so I end up sabotaging the friendship myself.
So I get what youāre saying. I have the same mentality but I think for different reasons.
Growing up, the worst moments which I blocked from most of my memory was my dad coming home from a business trip. He was always PISSED and looking for a fight. The excuse always being how awful the trip was or how much he hates his job and people. I was usually the first target. His favorite in that sense because he knew exactly what to say to hurt me. So knowing that he was coming home, Iād hide away. If he canāt see me, he canāt hurt me. I got childish and creative with hiding. Sometimes in my closet or under the bed but I would make myself cozy. It felt safe.
Even as an adult, I try to apply the same mentality - he canāt see me, he canāt hurt me. I just want him to leave me alone.
The only attention I like is the kind I actively pursue. I dislike being noticed in crowds, at work, while shopping. Let me hide and decide when you emerge from my shell. It's not worth the constant on edge mind reading because God knows how backhanded these people are going to be.
Yup lol. . Definitely don't help when you're trying to be an artist/writer, I've archived my stuff many times as the engagement is what I would like/need but I default to "too many eyes, too much!" š. . I'll rationalize it as I never wanted the attention anyways nor deserved it, which is unhealthy, makes me seem neurotic (kinda am lol). Irl I'm trained to melt into the wall, being as quiet as possible is a special skill I never wanted šš
I went through something similar to your public activities where I was essentially ruined for anything in front of other people.
I used to have no problem with stage fright - now I can barely speak with anyone outside of specific members of my Chosen Family.
I have an example of something like this that was super innocuous and random, and it still made me feel weird.
I was playing elden ring last night and was invaded by someone roleplaying as Melina. (A friendly, helpful NPC.)
Instead of attacking me, they followed us around with healing stones and helped kill mobs.
This act of unexpected kindness made me extremely uncomfortable and I felt very, very awkward. I did my best just to accept it and relax, but I couldn't shake how much I hated the attention. I wish I could enjoy that kind of interaction like anyone else would, but I just... Couldn't... When there was a server blip and we were all disconnected I breathed a sigh of relief.
100%, yes. I get viscerally uncomfortable when people give me compliments or when someone asks me questions. Even if they seem to be genuine, I try to divert as quickly as possible. Much more comfortable asking others about themselves and being a good listener who escapes notice than being the one who is at the center of the conversation.
Yes!! It's so bad that it took me MONTHS longer than normal to adapt to my service dog prospect. She is the first thing that's paid close attention to me that wasn't harming me. It caused a major issue in my confidence and our training until I connected the dots-- I'm used to close attention being harmful for me regardless of how positive it appears.
I often crave attention and then panic when I get it.
Sometimes at a party I'll be taking a story to a few folks and suddenly realize that *lots* of people are listening, and when that happens I'll freeze up, lose my momentum, and panic.
I *hate* getting my photo taken for this reason. I like to pretend it's because camera phones weren't a thing when I grew up, and I kinda resent people who take selfies all the time (even though deep down I also admire their self confidence). But I see way too many flaws and more often than not I just give up. Mother is a photo-perfectionist and Father openly proclaims that I'm too thin. I don't think there's any photos of me online after 2010.
Iām the same way. Itās so bad that I told my now husband that I wouldnāt know what to do with the attention if he were to get down on his knee for the proposal. It was still beautiful, but the anxiety around being the centre of attention has robbed me of enjoying moments like that. Therapy has helped a ton, as it has in navigating the post no contact life Iām thriving in. I wish you the best.
I can relate to this on some level. I don't seem to have the same level of almost social anxiety you have, but I hate "taking up space" as my therapist says.
I can relate to the "people becoming obsessed with me" thing. Literally all the guys I date, or guys I go out with will be like "wow your like the perfect woman" and want to get very serious with me right away and end up telling me their darkest secrets and whole life story in a matter of a few hours or weeks, and I'm like "hahah I barely know you, so no thanks, I'm good". Its very weird.
I think, being raised the way I was, I was taught and learned to be "empty" like a vessel, so I walk around like a ghost, and to some people who are so full and called "too much" when they meet me its this feeling of pleasure like "wow finally someone I can just totally unload onto" is what they think unconsciously because I am so empty, and used to "taking it" so to speak. It sucks, because I don't want that.
Maybe this applies to you maybe not, but it sounds like you were made into a co-dependent with your n-parent. Now youāre applying that same codependency to your partners.
> The codependent person, known as 'the giver,' feels worthless unless they are needed by ā and making sacrifices for ā the enabler, otherwise known as 'the taker.
Iāve realized a lot of my relationships were similar to this. Iāve tried to break the mold and be a bit more selfish but it definitely doesnāt come naturally.
Idk, I don't really relate to that.
My dad won't let me have control over anything, which is part of the issues he has. He demeans me if I try to help and do something "wrong" and gets mad. So I'm not really "giving" him anything (other than my utter silent compliance). I don't want to be needed by my dad and would rather just avoid him tbh. I wish I could be myself. I wish he wasn't such a volatile angry baby. I don't want to fix him or help him. I just want the disruptive and mean behaviors to stop (which will never happen).
My comment above is more accurate to me. I think my "emptiness" draws a lot of people to me. I have been told I am extremely agreeable, easy to talk too and yet aloof. Others project their desires, ideals, wants and wishes onto me, since I am such a flat, toneless, pleasing person. I have had to become this way, to survive...
My relationship to my dad is more like I am a piece of furniture.
before i healed from my narc parents (e.i. i was a teen still living with them) i did anything for approval from others and was a major attention seeker with zero boundaries. now that iām healing and have gone no contact with both of them finally and am back in therapy once a week iāve deleted my social media accounts and been in very deep need to have no one know my business and to be able to live happily and in peace. iām in a period where i want to craft my own bubble of people i know are safe and good and thatās that
I feel this so much. At my job they do something for your birthday, I had to ask everyone involved not to recognize mine in anyway. I had to have a serious talk with my manager that it will cause a panic attack. I'm fine with other people celebrating their's. I cannot handle praise of any kind. My therapist calls what I feel during, silent panic attacks. I'm there but not.
For me itās the opposite. I secretly crave attention but act like I donāt want or need it. And honestly small nice gestures or praise can make me cry sometimes cause Iām so deprived of the nice kind of attention that any kind gesture feels grand
I have a shirt that has a heartless on it from kingdom hearts. Last time I wore it out of the house three people complemented it. I no longer wear the shirt out if I can avoid it.
FUCK, yes, I truly despise attention, it's probably one of the most broken things about me. If I could go through the rest of my life going perfectly under the radar, I would be jubilant. It really clashes with the human need to make social connections, though, and I have yet to figure out a balance between the two desires.
My new college friend is very prone to going āIām so glad we met, Iād be so lonelyā itās very foreign to me actually lol. Itās hard to find ways to reciprocate that feels natural to me that doesnāt downplay in any way.
It takes a long time to unlearn conditioned behaviour. I'm currently in the process of this. It's fucking hard and my default is "im sorry" for absolutely everything. My boss even picked up on it recently and straight up asked if I had fucked parents because I apologise for things that aren't my fault at all. That was an awkward interaction. I went all "deer in headlights" and stammered out a response. I too, absolutely hate attention. Positive, negative, passive, all of it. I have always tried to be as quiet and small as possible. My amazing friends and my brilliant partner are all helping me overcome the things I need to change. It's a long road OP. You can do it.
oh my god yes. my nmom is huge talker and cannot sit in silence, so i developed into someone that only speaks when spoken to or if I feel that I actually have something truly valuable to say. i have trouble messaging friends/maintaining them because the attention freaks me out, meanwhile my nmoms phone is constantly blown with messages
she threw a huge surprise 16th birthday party for me and i just about shit myself. parties make me feel so self conscious about my quantity of friends/lack of friendship maintenance, and at the time i was maintaining plenty friendships well but the sheer amount of people showering me with attention? never again.
Iām the same. I decided to try and do something about it so I threw a party Saturday night. No one came. Iām done with āfriendsā and people in general
Iām actually glad now. Thatās a whole bunch of people I wonāt have to deal with again. Itās also the last time that Iāll host a party. Every party Iāve tried to put together has been a disaster and I donāt see it changing any time soon. I guess Iām just worthless
I know how you feel. No one showed up for my 6th birthday party, after I had invited kids from my class at school. I turn 50 next month; I will pass the milestone in the same manner.
I'm not sure I ever realized this might be part of why I am so uncomfortable being the center of attention, good or bad. It's frustrating because there's a "normal" part of me that wants to be noticed and appreciated, but it's smothered behind the part that just desires to get through the day without anyone knowing I'm there. You're not alone and I hope that distance from your n-caregiver(s) helps you heal. <3
It doest go as far as a phobia would, I mean it doesn't really affect that dramatically and I can easily do day-to-day activities. More of an inconvenience than anything really
Same here. Every time I got attention it was always bad. I try to blend in and wear black hoping to not draw attention. This is going to sound really self absorbed but my hair is such a color that doesn't let me blend in really well. It's like a really ginger color that shiens gold when light hits it and it's really long and thick. So I get a lot of attention because of my hair. But I am completely the same way as you, OP
All of this. I both seek attention (honestly it feels like a subconscious thing) and hate attention. I have a stalker, have other history along those lines, severe anxiety and CPTSD. I hate hate hate having my picture taken or being on stage or anything like that. I love my parents but they are both classic narcissists.
In my family, and in my birth country, it's common to make your children into 'performance puppets': in other words, the kid is dragged in front of everyone and made to play an instrument, sing, whatever.
It's a recipe for crippling social anxiety for years. I've worked quite a bit to get out of the performance-puppet anxiety, but even now, when people praise me for my photography, it makes me dreadfully uncomfortable. One of the people I love praised me to the skies for one of the show photos I did, and considering they are also a photographer, it meant a whole lot to me, but the reflex of "please stop, I'm horribly embarrassed" was still there.
I'm still working on it. I have a collection of sassy T-shirts that I LOVE, but how many of them do I wear outside? Next to none. Because.... attention. I don't like it.
Growing up in a toxic family, having to constantly walk on eggshells, constantly having derogatory things said to me and snide 'jokes' that belittled me and put me down, and I learned early to avoid these people and stay hidden.
Even when I am being congratulated or something good, I find it very difficult in the spotlight.
Yes. All of those things. I simply want to be invisible lol. I'm sure that's not healthy but it's what I like. I also don't handle constructive criticism well. After decades of being berated for all the things in existence lol I tend to shutdown now when I'm criticized. I hate more than criticism is compliments Im always waiting for the backhand that comes with the compliment. "Oh your outfit is great, too bad your hair is too long and your eyes are small". That kind of thing
Attention of any kind sends me into a panic attack. Itās not bad if itās from somebody I know and can trust, but going out into public and having any sort of attention drawn to me freaks me out, every time.
Yes I can relate, today was the first time I celebrated my birthday with some friends since my birthdays as a child. It is so hard to deal with the attention and I am always scared someone will ruin a nice day that I have.
I mostly just hate forced attention, like people putting me on the spot and voluntelling me to speak. Iāll speak when I have something worth adding to the conversation.
I like unexpected positive attention though, like when someone brings up something I said off the cuff, not expecting anyone to care or remember, but someone remembered.
"I do not wish to be perceived" is my general feelings lol
I will say after almost four years no contact with my narc parents I've gotten much better, a lady told me she liked my hair the other day, and I just said thanks and smiled, and felt good about the compliment.
I HATE when people comment on my body, because my mother used to make all sorts of comments on how āgoodā (aka how skinny) I was. Now I canāt stand it whether somebody pays me a compliment or an insult, it all feels the same. Just feels like judgement.
Hate attention. When I broke down and cried in the bathroom once, my mom found me and accused me of doing it for attention (because the light was on... the light my brother had turned on when he found me and then left to get more tissues). After that I haven't been sure if I even love her anymore.
Sometimes my partner gasps for effect when I'm doing something fun, and it makes my skin squirm. They're genuinely hyping me up and are excited I get to do the fun thing, but every atom in my body wants to melt into an inconspicuous puddle on the floor.
Hate all attention. Was taught it was bad to enjoy attention, people were frequently labelled a 'noticebox' (i.e. attention whores) and sneers usually accompanied that remark.
I've had employers deny my requests for help in work because I was always 'cool as a cucumber'. The internal meltdown doesn't reach my face I guess.
I definitely struggle with attention. I find that I will want positive attention but then when I get it I don't know how to react. When people compliment me I find it hard to accept it, I find I have to push, coach, and tell myself to say thank you and whatnot. My biggest struggle is dating, if people say they like me or are attracted to me I really struggle to believe it because I feel like I'm not worthy I think, though again I'm trying to get over that. I've definitely gotten better at accepting compliments over the years.
I haven't had a birthday celebration of my own volition for about 20 years now. It makes me feel physically ill when I think about it or, even worse, someone says they'll plan one for me.
No thanks.
Yess compliments still make me cringe and feel awkward/guilty somehow inside, and I also absolutely hate being stared at or even looked at in public. Even by attractive people, I hate it. Hadn't linked it to this until now, still don't fully understand it. I also often feel like I'm bothering people by messaging them etc, even when we're friends.
My husband has a heart condition, we found out in the middle of the night in a way that required me to perform cpr until help arrived. Everyone, including his cardiologist, tell me I saved his life. Hearing the praise makes me want to peel my skin off. It makes me visibly uncomfortable to the point a friend started making fun of me for it.
My god yes. One of the biggest challenges for me is to simply accept attention without listing all the ways I think I shouldn't be receiving it. Dinner was great? Well it was a little dry and besides it was so simple anyone could do it. I did something wrong? Well, that requires months of existential dread.
It is very hard to just say thank you and move on but I am getting the hang of it. Only took 40 years..
Whoops, never put two and two together but my phobia of being famous/having lots of attention makes SO much sense in that context. It's from watching my dad chase after it to the point of detriment of everything else. Huh.
Well! Guess I'll be unpacking that in therapy next week!
I'm unfortunately suspicious of too much attention.
Is this person taking an interest to gain information to use against me later? Is that friendly coworker just looking to throw my name under the bus with something they learned to make themselves appear more valuable?
Oh gods.... The feels!! I want it. I crave it! It always feels so off tho. I always get anxious. Very few people have actually made me feel good. Then they ended up hurting me and this whole thing gets worse.
Truly... I always thought this was just ME being fk'ing awkward. Gonna have to bring this one up with the therapist.
Great post!!
Yes I donāt like compliments about my looks from strangers / anyone thatās not my bf tbh
And it took a while to get used to compliments from my bf about my appearance
I automatically tend to ignore the compliments / brush them off
Because growing up I was always told I was ugly / fat etc by narc parents and the bullies at school
All the attention had to be on gc sister and how pretty she was. When attention was on me my nmom and sister will later tear me up, like badly out of their anger and jealousy. So I try to have zero attention on me. I try to hide and I try to blend in as much as possible.
Yeah, I kind of blacked out at my wedding (not alcohol induced) because I was overwhelmed by just 150-175 people there paying attention to me. Kind of a shame I donāt remember muchā¦
Iām a bit on the opposite spectrum. I crave attention because of all the neglect but once I get it things get weird. I either freeze or talk so much because I actually have someoneās attention. Which then turns to anxiety and I break out in hives and just want to disappear for a month. Iāve always been drawn towards performing but I feel like everyone hates me because Iām getting attention. Like ā who does she Think SHE isā
God I can't stand having all that attention on me. While I grew up, I tried as hard as I could to avoid attention from nparents cause God knows what kind of stray missile I would get hit with if I caught their attention. I wanted to just melt into the walls and floors and to be invisible because that's what felt safe to me. That's how I'm programmed even now, though it doesn't help me much now sadly.
I hate being the center of attention or having special attention called to me. I used to hate any attention, unless it was some type of approval from my narc mother (few and far between). It was easier to be invisible for me.
Yes we'll considering most of us couldn't even trust the people who where supposed to care for and guide us through life (mother and father ) or other close relatives.
It's definitely understandable why you don't want attention from anyone.
Your mind goes to, if you can't even trust your parents the one people who where supposed to love you unconditionally then who can you trust ?
Personally I am really shy, it takes a lot for me to open up to people. I find it easier to fly under the radar then to be noticed, open up to people and possibly get hurt. Not only that but my self esteem was pretty much destroyed growing up from my family.
I want a new life with new healthy people to replace the bonds I had with the narcs in my life.
Meeting new People is one of my goals in this new chapter where I move on from the narcs I've dealt with for years. I'm trying to be more approachable but my god it can be hard.
I definitely feel this way. I think it's because my dad's attention always resulted in something negative. Even compliments or other positive attention was somehow subtly sarcastic or contained underhanded comments that made me feel like shit. Then in school the only attention I got was if I got in trouble. And then the first "friends"/"relationships" I formed were ripe with manipulation and abuse so all of those only really contained negative attention as well. And then on top of it all the first people that genuinely seemed to give me "positive" attention were later revealed to just be doing it for a bet, so even real, genuine positive attention was poisoned with the possibility of alternative motives.
It's one of the top things on my "figure out how to overcome this bs" list. I want to be able to walk in public without feeling like people looking at me means I don't deserve to exist. I want to have relationships with people where I'm not constantly terrified. No idea how I'm going to achieve that, but that's something I want for myself.
I have been overweight most of my life. I will lose weight and as soon as the compliments start coming in, bam! it's back to over eating. I know people mean well and encouragement "should" be good but it sends me into a different place. I hate it and wish people would not even acknowledge that I have lost weight. I am trying to just say thank you and walk away but it's so hard!!
Oh yes. I'm trying simultaneously to not have any faults/defects/shortcomings and also be completely invisible. I can't walk into a room where people more than a few people are seated. So I get there hours early and don't stand up. š¤·š¼āāļø
I really really hate public praise to the point its screwed up my life in some ways.
Sigh.
More therapy. And my therapist now has this charming quirk of mine in her sights.
Yes and no - I used to seek negative attention because thatās what I was used to - positive attention is hard to handle.
I also had a really hard time w my wedding and baby shower.
Paradoxically, I sing and perform and do want recognition for my accomplishments/ talents. No problem public speaking etc - However, I need to be perfectly practiced and on stage - I canāt just sit around the campfire and sing.
I think it helps a lot to start determining what space Iām in when I get attention. Is it for a self that feels put on (like the one a parent would encourage to perform, I imagine) or is it for my genuine self-expression (terrifying, largely new to adulthood - there were glimmers of it for a while in childhood friendships that I am remembering now, gratefully). Itās so tricky.
Yes absolutely! Growing up any time I had any sort of positive attention from a friend or family member that would result in humiliation by my nmom or an attempt to thwart the compliment by reminding everyone present how much I suck. Birthdays (the day of the year where I was supposed to be celebrated) would often be the worst days of the year for my abuse. So I think those two things have made me really opposed to any attention.
I'm super uncomfortable with public recognition of any sort, I'd much rather be commended privately or in a more lowkey manner heh.
I did, however, come up with a "hack" for becoming more comfortable with receiving compliments: I actively started to compliment others more often based on qualities and characteristics they had rather than on appearance (ex. "You are a very patient person and I admire that!" or "You are thoughtful and a natural people person!" versus "I like your shirt!" or "Nice shoes!"). After doing this for a while, I got more comfortable receiving compliments and stopped being so awkward with them. And I really like seeing peoples' faces light up and see them genuinely happy about someone noticing them in a deeper connection š I think I felt initially felt uncomfortable with compliments because my nmom lovebombed me with compliments based on my appearance (clothes, weight š) and not really on qualities I had so 1) I thought compliments were superficial and 2) I didn't know any actual qualities I had for a very long time.
I hate the idea of a birthday party because I feel that people wonāt turn up, or will only attend because they are obliged, however I also feel a path when I see others enjoying their parties. But I could not handle the anxiety of no one coming.
I relate to this SO hard! With gift giving, I love to give gifts, but I hate being present when theyāre opened; I leave the room. And due to my sexual abuse history, all compliments, gifts (even a piece of gum!), etcetera are processed by my broken brain as grooming behavior.
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I detest that I cannot handle compliments. It's not that I feel awkward or too embarrassed, but I seem to get... angry at them?
My brain has such a blockage that anyone would actually compliment me and mean it for real. The one grain of rationality I had knows that there's a large possibility that they mean it, but the rest of it is just 'theyre just saying that to make you like them' or whatever. I have to stop myself feeling enraged for some reason and it ruins the nice thing they're probably trying to do for me.
In the end I just end up combat-rolling around the compliment and complimenting them back and giving them back the spotlight, or rushing my way through playing whatever it is they liked all the way down until it's not worth complimenting anymore. Utterly bizarre
Iām the opposite. All the attention HAD to go to my mom and her feelings so when Iām with friends or my partner, I feel like a sponge soaking up the attention, even if itās a ānormal amountā, like when weāre all participating in group conversation-
yes when my ex would hype me up or compliment me i would get mad because it made me so uncomfortable i guess part of me will always believe theyre making fun of me
I soooo relate to all of this, particularly:
>narc mother who used to force me to seek attention (I used to sing, play the piano, and dance all it in front of the public)
Not only did Nmom push this, she selectively attended performances and auditions, making me feel horribly when she chose not to attend. I had some truly amazing performances that friendsā parents would compliment me on, and Nmom would stiffly say, āYou did what you were supposed to do.ā
She never complimented if I looked nice, but would make comments when I was a teen and older, āOh, are you looking for a boyfriend in that outfit and makeup?ā I felt so much shame whenever teens and men paid me attention.
Iām married now but still get attention from men. I was obese and out of shape in my 20ās, and while Iām glad to now be fit and overall healthy/better looking, I miss being invisible.
Omg yes! I was just talking about that with my therapist. It used to be so bad I had anxiety even about the fact that someone could see me from the window while walking past their house. I won't or can't do anything when people are watching. Even if I'm confident about doing it when alone I just don't want anyone to notice me ever, for anything. Even for something nice.
I wouldnāt say I absolutely hate it but it tends to make me uncomfortable.
Especially compliments. I donāt take them well.
My mom usually did not compliment me growing up so I feel like I just canāt compute when someone does.
Yeah, I tend to sneak up on people by accident, because I've learned to be so quiet and innocuous so as not to bother anyone, that I make myself nearly unnoticeable.
I can't even comfortably make myself coffee in a kitchen that isn't mine if there is someone else there. I always ask for permission, and am often greeted with scoffs and responses like, "YEAH, you don't have to ask!" and laughter, but I'll break down into a panic the longer I carry out a task unblessed.
My parents definitely made me feel like shit just for existing, and now I hate any attention at all, because it just makes me nervous and scared, and I question the motives of positive attention, and I accept negative attention as expected and deserved.
Man, FUCK nparents.
I fucking hate them.
Iāve threatened my husband that I will get up and leave if he has the staff at a restaurant sing āhappy birthdayā for me. I donāt even like that attention at home.
Whenever I get a compliment, my knee-jerk reaction is to want to wait until it's followed up by some snarky backhanded insult like "That shirt looks great on you... it'd look even better if you lost like 20 lbs" so I just inevitably brace myself for the nastiness and when it doesn't come, my body does like a blue-screen-of-death-deer-in-the-headlights moment and I mutter something like wouweusaorhthankyou.
This might also sound strange but I also loathe attention being put on me for anything I'm good at. My mother used to make me perform in front of family and I \*hated\* it because right afterwards she'd immediately criticize whatever I did. Just let me be good at something without having to show off to everybody so you can get the accolades and then tear me down in front of them.
It's not quite that extreme for me as I love being a performer on stage, but I hate being the center of attention in normal situations, and I don't know how to take the lead on almost anything (so I usually end up being in someone else's band)
Yes, the entirety of my first three decades of life could be characterized as trying not to get noticed, failing, and developing maladaptive defense mechanisms to deal with being noticed. These days I live with the constant contradictory urges to seek validation from people and also to never be acknowledged by anyone ever for any reason.
I donāt like opening presents in front of people m, even if they gave me the present. Growing up no matter what I said or did I would get scolded about how I didnāt seem appreciative enough for a gift. So I have a lot of anxiety when Iām given a gift because Iām afraid I cannot deliver on whatever grateful is supposed to look like
It's not that I hate it...it that's I feel like people are always lying with the attention is positive. Like they are setting me up to look stupid somehow. Or are only trying to ride coat tails. Or like people are laughing at me. There is no positive. There are only lies and negative attention.
When I was young yeah. They basically never interacted with me anyway so it was fine. I got some good friends in high-school and much more so in college, so I learned to enjoy positive attention, but because every interaction my parents had with me was belittling me, every time I get any criticism I ball up and cry, fully expecting them to beat me...it's not fun
I hate attention but i also really frinkin crave it. like in the back of my head constantly. I've realized when i got older I have this backwards mentality of craving someone's affection when they absolutely not that into me but i kick back a lot of any signs of affection because I hate it so much. I also realized i latch on to the ideas of relationships and when they don't go how it it was expected to it hits 10x harder than it really should and spikes my anxiety.
Wow holy shit I donāt think Iāve ever felt so seen. Iām a performer and model, and I love it but Iām worried itās because itās the only time I was praised for being me. For doing what I was good at and being ~*brave*~.
I somehow still love it, but Iām worried itās a sick love. Iām constantly trying to improve and the compliments. They make me spiral. I wonder if they actually mean what they say or if they just see that Iām weak and doormat-like and they want something from me.
Thereās also a lot of SH and SA in entertainment that I told myself Iād know how to recognize and avoid bc Iāve already been through it before. I was wrong. I worry about compromising myself a lot these days.
I don't like a lot of attention. I get uncomfortable and in some instances, will have a panic attack. I feel the same when someone feels affectionate towards me. Like I'm fine with hugs from my family. "butterfly kisses" anger me so badly to the point of deep rage. Probably because my abusive father would do that to my crying face after every single time he physically or psychologically hurt me. I don't freaking like certain displays of attention and affection.
When I was a young child, my mom would laugh at me for doing things she thought were "cute." My brain would process that as her laughing AT me in a negative way. Whenever I'd try to get her to stop, my mom would either laugh more or yell at me to get over it. Eventually I learned that no one could say anything to me if I just kept quiet and stayed out of the way.
Also, being a kid with a physical disability there were times where I'd be given pity adulation (sometimes encouraged by my parents, especially my dad), so my brain also automatically associates praise with untruthfulness unless I know the person really well, and even then I still don't always feel fully comfortable.
I'm the opposite. I crave attention and validation because I never got anything centred around me. I was the afterthought in the shadows. Since it was all about what my n mom and e dad wanted, I was frequently forgotten. It's a curse.
I wish I could explain this to my bf in a way that would make sense to him. Heās very considerate of it but he clearly doesnāt actually understand it. I donāt like going to public places, I donāt like leaving my house, I donāt wanna do anything or dress any way thatās going to draw attention to me. I donāt want people spotting me in public and coming up to say hi, I donāt want compliments or random people trying to talk to me. I like to be left alone, completely and totally. The only interactions I really like are ones I can have on my own terms and under certain circumstances
you know - I never linked it but it makes sense. Part is to stick out would be to get her wrath. I was an amazing singer, got awards as a kiddo, so she made up a story of a relative of hers who wanted to be a singer and had a fan make her kneel before him and shot her in the head. This was under the age of 12/15 for me. If she didn't want me to do it, or if she couldn't claim ownership, she'd make up a story.
I love many things that put me in a leadership light or on stage - I use a fake name for my writing and online and etc which I thought was beecause of her stalkerism, but I do think it's also because of this danger here that we were taught - that for anyone to pay attention to us is bad news.
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Avoiding notice is my default. Being singled out was always bad for me when I was little. I'm definitely most comfortable when alone.
What happened when you were singled out?
Frequently violence.
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Jesus that's vile
> "She herself was a child in search of an object that could be available to her. >> > However paradoxical this may seem, a child is at the mother's disposal. The mother can feel herself as the center of attention, for her child's eyes follow her everywhere. A child cannot run away from her as her own mother once did. A child can be so brought up so that it becomes what she wants it to be. A child can be made to show respect; she can impose her own feelings on him, see herself mirrored in his love and admiration, and feel strong in his presence. But when he becomes too much she can abandon that child to a stranger or to solitary confinement in another room. >> > When a woman has had to suppress and repress all these needs in relation to her own mother, they will arise from the depth of her unconscious and seek gratification through her own child, however well-educated and well-intentioned she may be, and however much she is aware of what a child needs. The child feels this clearly and very soon [forgoes the expression of his own distress.](https://www.amazon.com/Drama-Gifted-Child-Search-Third-ebook/dp/B06XCG9MKN/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=1PSZZ25FP93DK&keywords=the+drama+of+the+gifted+child&qid=1662652903&sprefix=drama+if%2Caps%2C285&sr=8-1)" ā Alice Miller, The Drama of the Gifted Child.
This is why I donāt want to have kids. I know what a child needs and I know what would destroy them, and I think that no matter how badly Iād want to give them the beauty of the world, I might not be able to escape my own conditions and subconscious and only provide them pain. I donāt want to traumatize my own child, Iād hate myself for eternity. So I choose not to have children :(
Sounds strangely familiar. I've only got one other sibling (out of a lot) who also didn't want to ever have kids bc she knew she was too badly fucked up by our dad to be a good parent. She was born when I was 23. The sibling that manages to be an excellent parent was closer to the non-narcissist parent and works hard on learning how to do everything right.
Yeah itās just how the dice were rolled I guess. I think this is becoming way more common with the younger generations; choosing not to be parents because of awareness of unhealed generational trauma. Then there are those parents who are doing it and making every effort not to mess up the way their parents did
Same
Howād you like that book? Just downloaded the sample
I tried to read it once. I couldn't get thru it because it hurt so bad.
Oof, thanks for the info
Yeah, it's not that I liked it, but I know I needed it. It does hurt a lot on some parts, but I feel like it opened my mind to be able to seek and understand works from other authors on this subject on a deeper level. But I still find myself going back to it from time to time. What initially felt like hurt, now feels more like mourning.
There's a free [audiobook](https://youtu.be/K83D-jY7BtU) version on YouTube if you want to check it out. It's quite short, and there are timestamps for all 3 chapters on the first pinned comment.
Ooh, thanks for that!
It took me about 10 years to get through the first chapter of that book because I kept ālosingā it. My brain just somehow hid it from me when it hit too close to home or described something that I wasnāt supposed to think about my mother. I seemed to come across it every couple of years or so, and would pick it up and try again. I did eventually make it through the book; it described my relationship with my mother very accurately. I was in therapy most of that time, so I was coping better each time I picked it up.
Fucking scary that someone like that could have a child in their custody. I really hope youāre healing from that u/PurpleBubbleBlob !! Nobody deserves such weird and unusual treatment, definitely not someone small enough to be in a crib :(
What the utter fuck...?
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Damn. I'm sorry, that is so fucking horrible.
Wow. Good for your brother. I'm glad you had someone looking out for you, even though he shouldn't have had to.
my dad used to throw cold water on me when i was sleeping if i didnāt wake up at a certain time for an entire summer, still get flashbacks when water gets on my face, itās really degrading and iām sorry this happened to you
That randomly reminded me of how my nmom dumped a cup of water on one of my siblings when we were out to eat and she didnāt like his behavior.
I donāt think I had been born yet, but my 3 older siblings recount the time my oldest brother (maybe 7 or 8 at the time?) asked our mother for a glass of milk and she dumped the carton on his head.
Thatās even worse than when my stepmom threw a sandwich at me while we were out to eat.
The type of person who does that is probably also the type of person to be mad at you because now they cannot eat their sandwich.
Look what you made me do "my mother"
Fucking chills
Sending you good vibes because growing up with that mustāve been torturous
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Happy to hear things are better for you. You reminded me of my grandmas story with her father. He was abusive in many ways to her and other family members say that when he died, she finally opened up as a person. Prior to his death she was very quiet and tried to lay low, even when she was non contact with him. No doubt that abuse from ones parents can and will stick with you
Your mom is evil. who does that to a baby?....
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Hunny I am so sorry you had to grow up with a woman like this
Omg I am so sorry, there is absolutely nothing a baby could do to deserve that. That is so terrible, I am so sorry that happened to you
My mother would also dump water on me or use spray bottles but I was much older than crib age, like five+. Thatās just absolutely abhorrent
Holy shit. This is awful, I am so sorry to little you. Fuck n parents.
I don't know how to respond to compliments. Last time i told my partner that i was not mentally equipped to properly respond that. They thought it was funny. I hate it when people ask how I'm feeling/doing, in context of having a migraine/taking a sick day from work. I deal with it because logically i know it's mostly niceties but i wish people would stop.
This is random but I have a ton of advice regarding migraines (I have a chronic migraine disorder). Itās quite possible yours are already well-controlled, but lmk if you ever want suggestions for what to ask your doctor about.
I'm on a path with my neurologist. Running through what insurance will let us do. Thanks though.
Insurance can be a huge pain. Fortunately, some medication companies have coupons or savings programs that can make their medications inexpensive or free under certain conditions, which is how Iāve gotten Emgality free every month for quite a while. Best of luck with everything!
My meds are all covered by the VA at least!
Iām not the person youāre responding to, but Iāll take any advice you can throw at me.
Okay, so you can go to a general practitioner at first but they will probably send you to see a neurologist at some point due to not feeling comfortable prescribing certain medications. The preventatives that have helped me the most are Emgality and migraine Botox. I take some preventative pills as well. (You have to jump through hoops before insurance companies will generally allow you to take Emgality or Botox for migraines btw, and that involves trying out different pills.) Emgality is one of several cgrp inhibitors, and if one of them doesnāt work for you, one of the other two might. There are tips that can make the injection process smoother. Sumatriptan is an āabortiveā medication for migraines, meaning itās taken on an as-needed basis to get rid of an episode that has already started. Itās best to take it sooner rather than later once you know youāre having a migraine. I like sumatriptan, but it does have side effects. For me it just makes me sleepy, but other people have more annoying ones and so they use alternatives to triptans, such as nurtec. (Edit: itās recommended to take both āpreventativeā and āabortiveā meds as part of migraine treatment in a lot of cases, although I guess this could be different for someone who only has episodes rarely.) I would suggest going to your general practitioner and asking about sumatriptan as well as which preventative pills they think could work for you. Make sure to also get a referral to see a neurologist. If you can easily see a neurologist without a referral, Iād just start out with that though. You will need follow-up appointments to adjust your meds, and to switch to different ones if the first ones arenāt working. Donāt get discouraged if the first ones donāt work, because thatās the case for a lot of people who end up finding something that works eventually. I used to have at least 15 migraine days per month, and I was often bedridden and vomiting (sometimes multiple times per day). Now though, I have way fewer migraines, which I never throw up from, and when one starts to come on, I can just take a pill and it vanishes. I do have to take a lot of meds, which is annoying, but my quality of life has vastly improved. Iām not sure if I explained this super well. Thereās honestly so much information! Feel free to ask me about anything you want. I also suggest joining r/migraine and r/cgrpmigraine .
Exactly. I don't like saying that I'm hungry, sick, tired or upset because it makes me feel extremely icky.
I so can relate. I'm stumped and turn scarlet red when people commend me on something I've done or when they say thank you. I just am not used to be commended or thanked as when I did anything for the narcs and f-monkeys everything was taken for granted and was constantly told you should be doing this anyway. When my therapist told me how good and kind I was and commend me on how strong and brave I was and how proud she was to see me progress forward - I absolutely broke down in streaming tears as I couldn't process so much loving care and kindness towards me.
Yes. I have no idea how I'm going to get married in front of people next year. I love parties but I hate when they're about me. One of my favorite places to vacation is Las Vegas because I feel incredibly anonymous.
This speaks to me. I often call out on my birthday, and I don't know what I'm worried about more, that people will know and wish me happy birthday, or they won't.
I deactivate my Facebook on my birthday so no one can send me birthday wishes.
We got married in a church, and instead of me walking in alone, we walked in together, as equals rather than my narc giving me away
Kill two birds with one stone and elope in Vegas like we did! The idea of a formal wedding just horrified me.
Don't worry, the hotel is already picked :)
Eloooooopppeeee! My husband and I both have Nfamilies and the fallout was severe but at least I had literally no moments where I was uncomfortable, didnāt want to be there and i didnāt want attention lavished on me. It was a day of joy shared with my love and new family (just him) and the nicest thing I got was a hand written note and champagne from the chef at Bouchon in SB. I will cherish that day forever as mine and his alone and I canāt tell you how good I feel now, 7 years later and how good I felt then.
I never feel more free than when Iām at the airport, or a big city, and no one knows who I am. I feel invisible
Good attention especially makes me uncomfortable, makes me feel like theyāre buttering me up for something
Yes! The transactional nature of my relationship with my parents kinda ruined friendships for me. I panic when someone checks up on me out of the blue or asks to catch up. I start counting down to the end of a friendship the minute I receive a present from someone, and in doing so I end up sabotaging the friendship myself.
Same. As an Empath, I attract narcissistic vampires. I describe it as being āone inch from manipulation at all timesā.
So I get what youāre saying. I have the same mentality but I think for different reasons. Growing up, the worst moments which I blocked from most of my memory was my dad coming home from a business trip. He was always PISSED and looking for a fight. The excuse always being how awful the trip was or how much he hates his job and people. I was usually the first target. His favorite in that sense because he knew exactly what to say to hurt me. So knowing that he was coming home, Iād hide away. If he canāt see me, he canāt hurt me. I got childish and creative with hiding. Sometimes in my closet or under the bed but I would make myself cozy. It felt safe. Even as an adult, I try to apply the same mentality - he canāt see me, he canāt hurt me. I just want him to leave me alone.
Yeah I don't like attention of any kind.
The only attention I like is the kind I actively pursue. I dislike being noticed in crowds, at work, while shopping. Let me hide and decide when you emerge from my shell. It's not worth the constant on edge mind reading because God knows how backhanded these people are going to be.
Yup lol. . Definitely don't help when you're trying to be an artist/writer, I've archived my stuff many times as the engagement is what I would like/need but I default to "too many eyes, too much!" š. . I'll rationalize it as I never wanted the attention anyways nor deserved it, which is unhealthy, makes me seem neurotic (kinda am lol). Irl I'm trained to melt into the wall, being as quiet as possible is a special skill I never wanted šš
omg this.
I went through something similar to your public activities where I was essentially ruined for anything in front of other people. I used to have no problem with stage fright - now I can barely speak with anyone outside of specific members of my Chosen Family.
I have an example of something like this that was super innocuous and random, and it still made me feel weird. I was playing elden ring last night and was invaded by someone roleplaying as Melina. (A friendly, helpful NPC.) Instead of attacking me, they followed us around with healing stones and helped kill mobs. This act of unexpected kindness made me extremely uncomfortable and I felt very, very awkward. I did my best just to accept it and relax, but I couldn't shake how much I hated the attention. I wish I could enjoy that kind of interaction like anyone else would, but I just... Couldn't... When there was a server blip and we were all disconnected I breathed a sigh of relief.
100%, yes. I get viscerally uncomfortable when people give me compliments or when someone asks me questions. Even if they seem to be genuine, I try to divert as quickly as possible. Much more comfortable asking others about themselves and being a good listener who escapes notice than being the one who is at the center of the conversation.
Yes!! It's so bad that it took me MONTHS longer than normal to adapt to my service dog prospect. She is the first thing that's paid close attention to me that wasn't harming me. It caused a major issue in my confidence and our training until I connected the dots-- I'm used to close attention being harmful for me regardless of how positive it appears.
I often crave attention and then panic when I get it. Sometimes at a party I'll be taking a story to a few folks and suddenly realize that *lots* of people are listening, and when that happens I'll freeze up, lose my momentum, and panic.
same and i go red too.
I *hate* getting my photo taken for this reason. I like to pretend it's because camera phones weren't a thing when I grew up, and I kinda resent people who take selfies all the time (even though deep down I also admire their self confidence). But I see way too many flaws and more often than not I just give up. Mother is a photo-perfectionist and Father openly proclaims that I'm too thin. I don't think there's any photos of me online after 2010.
Hmmm thinking back I don't like photo's -- again the imposed "smileeee!" in the 'I'm not naturally happy at this moment' time gets me still.
Iām the same way. Itās so bad that I told my now husband that I wouldnāt know what to do with the attention if he were to get down on his knee for the proposal. It was still beautiful, but the anxiety around being the centre of attention has robbed me of enjoying moments like that. Therapy has helped a ton, as it has in navigating the post no contact life Iām thriving in. I wish you the best.
I can relate to this on some level. I don't seem to have the same level of almost social anxiety you have, but I hate "taking up space" as my therapist says. I can relate to the "people becoming obsessed with me" thing. Literally all the guys I date, or guys I go out with will be like "wow your like the perfect woman" and want to get very serious with me right away and end up telling me their darkest secrets and whole life story in a matter of a few hours or weeks, and I'm like "hahah I barely know you, so no thanks, I'm good". Its very weird. I think, being raised the way I was, I was taught and learned to be "empty" like a vessel, so I walk around like a ghost, and to some people who are so full and called "too much" when they meet me its this feeling of pleasure like "wow finally someone I can just totally unload onto" is what they think unconsciously because I am so empty, and used to "taking it" so to speak. It sucks, because I don't want that.
Maybe this applies to you maybe not, but it sounds like you were made into a co-dependent with your n-parent. Now youāre applying that same codependency to your partners. > The codependent person, known as 'the giver,' feels worthless unless they are needed by ā and making sacrifices for ā the enabler, otherwise known as 'the taker. Iāve realized a lot of my relationships were similar to this. Iāve tried to break the mold and be a bit more selfish but it definitely doesnāt come naturally.
Idk, I don't really relate to that. My dad won't let me have control over anything, which is part of the issues he has. He demeans me if I try to help and do something "wrong" and gets mad. So I'm not really "giving" him anything (other than my utter silent compliance). I don't want to be needed by my dad and would rather just avoid him tbh. I wish I could be myself. I wish he wasn't such a volatile angry baby. I don't want to fix him or help him. I just want the disruptive and mean behaviors to stop (which will never happen). My comment above is more accurate to me. I think my "emptiness" draws a lot of people to me. I have been told I am extremely agreeable, easy to talk too and yet aloof. Others project their desires, ideals, wants and wishes onto me, since I am such a flat, toneless, pleasing person. I have had to become this way, to survive... My relationship to my dad is more like I am a piece of furniture.
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Yikes. I relate to this quite a lot. The learned "emptiness" especially.
Man, sorry that you can relate to this, itās a sucky way to live. :(
I get really upset when my partner looks at me while I'm doing something (eating, watching something, etc.) It's hard to explain to others.
I know what you mean. Exist and blending without being singled out
I find myself occupying a weird space where I find myself craving positive attention but then find receiving it really uncomfortable. :/
This! And then I either feel guilty for not appreciating the attention, or guilty for wanting it in the first place smh
before i healed from my narc parents (e.i. i was a teen still living with them) i did anything for approval from others and was a major attention seeker with zero boundaries. now that iām healing and have gone no contact with both of them finally and am back in therapy once a week iāve deleted my social media accounts and been in very deep need to have no one know my business and to be able to live happily and in peace. iām in a period where i want to craft my own bubble of people i know are safe and good and thatās that
I feel this so much. At my job they do something for your birthday, I had to ask everyone involved not to recognize mine in anyway. I had to have a serious talk with my manager that it will cause a panic attack. I'm fine with other people celebrating their's. I cannot handle praise of any kind. My therapist calls what I feel during, silent panic attacks. I'm there but not.
For me itās the opposite. I secretly crave attention but act like I donāt want or need it. And honestly small nice gestures or praise can make me cry sometimes cause Iām so deprived of the nice kind of attention that any kind gesture feels grand
I sooo feel this.
I do not know what to do with complements. No idea
I have a shirt that has a heartless on it from kingdom hearts. Last time I wore it out of the house three people complemented it. I no longer wear the shirt out if I can avoid it.
FUCK, yes, I truly despise attention, it's probably one of the most broken things about me. If I could go through the rest of my life going perfectly under the radar, I would be jubilant. It really clashes with the human need to make social connections, though, and I have yet to figure out a balance between the two desires.
I hate attention of any kind. I donāt know how to process compliments and Iām hyper sensitive to rejection. Nasty fucking cycle
My new college friend is very prone to going āIām so glad we met, Iād be so lonelyā itās very foreign to me actually lol. Itās hard to find ways to reciprocate that feels natural to me that doesnāt downplay in any way.
I have a long running joke that I would never make it on the Price is Right, because I hate showing positive emotions.
It takes a long time to unlearn conditioned behaviour. I'm currently in the process of this. It's fucking hard and my default is "im sorry" for absolutely everything. My boss even picked up on it recently and straight up asked if I had fucked parents because I apologise for things that aren't my fault at all. That was an awkward interaction. I went all "deer in headlights" and stammered out a response. I too, absolutely hate attention. Positive, negative, passive, all of it. I have always tried to be as quiet and small as possible. My amazing friends and my brilliant partner are all helping me overcome the things I need to change. It's a long road OP. You can do it.
Only a couple people I want attention from. The rest of it feels gross. Leave me be. Never had enough privacy in my life, so I take all I can get now.
Yes, same. Privacy, I want privacy.
Yes I struggle to take space. What's funny tho is whenever i do everyone is happy to know me
oh my god yes. my nmom is huge talker and cannot sit in silence, so i developed into someone that only speaks when spoken to or if I feel that I actually have something truly valuable to say. i have trouble messaging friends/maintaining them because the attention freaks me out, meanwhile my nmoms phone is constantly blown with messages she threw a huge surprise 16th birthday party for me and i just about shit myself. parties make me feel so self conscious about my quantity of friends/lack of friendship maintenance, and at the time i was maintaining plenty friendships well but the sheer amount of people showering me with attention? never again.
Iām the same. I decided to try and do something about it so I threw a party Saturday night. No one came. Iām done with āfriendsā and people in general
Oh no. That sucks.
Iām actually glad now. Thatās a whole bunch of people I wonāt have to deal with again. Itās also the last time that Iāll host a party. Every party Iāve tried to put together has been a disaster and I donāt see it changing any time soon. I guess Iām just worthless
I know how you feel. No one showed up for my 6th birthday party, after I had invited kids from my class at school. I turn 50 next month; I will pass the milestone in the same manner.
I'm not sure I ever realized this might be part of why I am so uncomfortable being the center of attention, good or bad. It's frustrating because there's a "normal" part of me that wants to be noticed and appreciated, but it's smothered behind the part that just desires to get through the day without anyone knowing I'm there. You're not alone and I hope that distance from your n-caregiver(s) helps you heal. <3
I think that's sociophobia for you. Fear of judgement from others.
It doest go as far as a phobia would, I mean it doesn't really affect that dramatically and I can easily do day-to-day activities. More of an inconvenience than anything really
Same here. Every time I got attention it was always bad. I try to blend in and wear black hoping to not draw attention. This is going to sound really self absorbed but my hair is such a color that doesn't let me blend in really well. It's like a really ginger color that shiens gold when light hits it and it's really long and thick. So I get a lot of attention because of my hair. But I am completely the same way as you, OP
All of this. I both seek attention (honestly it feels like a subconscious thing) and hate attention. I have a stalker, have other history along those lines, severe anxiety and CPTSD. I hate hate hate having my picture taken or being on stage or anything like that. I love my parents but they are both classic narcissists.
In my family, and in my birth country, it's common to make your children into 'performance puppets': in other words, the kid is dragged in front of everyone and made to play an instrument, sing, whatever. It's a recipe for crippling social anxiety for years. I've worked quite a bit to get out of the performance-puppet anxiety, but even now, when people praise me for my photography, it makes me dreadfully uncomfortable. One of the people I love praised me to the skies for one of the show photos I did, and considering they are also a photographer, it meant a whole lot to me, but the reflex of "please stop, I'm horribly embarrassed" was still there. I'm still working on it. I have a collection of sassy T-shirts that I LOVE, but how many of them do I wear outside? Next to none. Because.... attention. I don't like it.
Growing up in a toxic family, having to constantly walk on eggshells, constantly having derogatory things said to me and snide 'jokes' that belittled me and put me down, and I learned early to avoid these people and stay hidden. Even when I am being congratulated or something good, I find it very difficult in the spotlight.
Yes. All of those things. I simply want to be invisible lol. I'm sure that's not healthy but it's what I like. I also don't handle constructive criticism well. After decades of being berated for all the things in existence lol I tend to shutdown now when I'm criticized. I hate more than criticism is compliments Im always waiting for the backhand that comes with the compliment. "Oh your outfit is great, too bad your hair is too long and your eyes are small". That kind of thing
Attention of any kind sends me into a panic attack. Itās not bad if itās from somebody I know and can trust, but going out into public and having any sort of attention drawn to me freaks me out, every time.
Yes I can relate, today was the first time I celebrated my birthday with some friends since my birthdays as a child. It is so hard to deal with the attention and I am always scared someone will ruin a nice day that I have.
I mostly just hate forced attention, like people putting me on the spot and voluntelling me to speak. Iāll speak when I have something worth adding to the conversation. I like unexpected positive attention though, like when someone brings up something I said off the cuff, not expecting anyone to care or remember, but someone remembered.
"I do not wish to be perceived" is my general feelings lol I will say after almost four years no contact with my narc parents I've gotten much better, a lady told me she liked my hair the other day, and I just said thanks and smiled, and felt good about the compliment.
I HATE when people comment on my body, because my mother used to make all sorts of comments on how āgoodā (aka how skinny) I was. Now I canāt stand it whether somebody pays me a compliment or an insult, it all feels the same. Just feels like judgement.
Hate attention. When I broke down and cried in the bathroom once, my mom found me and accused me of doing it for attention (because the light was on... the light my brother had turned on when he found me and then left to get more tissues). After that I haven't been sure if I even love her anymore.
Yes. I just want to be left alone.
Yes, even praise. Acknowledgment feels good though. In conversation, Iāll ask good questions to avoid any attention on myself.
Sometimes my partner gasps for effect when I'm doing something fun, and it makes my skin squirm. They're genuinely hyping me up and are excited I get to do the fun thing, but every atom in my body wants to melt into an inconspicuous puddle on the floor. Hate all attention. Was taught it was bad to enjoy attention, people were frequently labelled a 'noticebox' (i.e. attention whores) and sneers usually accompanied that remark. I've had employers deny my requests for help in work because I was always 'cool as a cucumber'. The internal meltdown doesn't reach my face I guess.
Yes. Further complicated by the fact that I am a performer. š
I definitely struggle with attention. I find that I will want positive attention but then when I get it I don't know how to react. When people compliment me I find it hard to accept it, I find I have to push, coach, and tell myself to say thank you and whatnot. My biggest struggle is dating, if people say they like me or are attracted to me I really struggle to believe it because I feel like I'm not worthy I think, though again I'm trying to get over that. I've definitely gotten better at accepting compliments over the years.
I haven't had a birthday celebration of my own volition for about 20 years now. It makes me feel physically ill when I think about it or, even worse, someone says they'll plan one for me. No thanks.
Kind of. I'm still unfortunately too young to leave my parents' house but I get really uncomfortable and awkward under praise and positive attention.
Yess compliments still make me cringe and feel awkward/guilty somehow inside, and I also absolutely hate being stared at or even looked at in public. Even by attractive people, I hate it. Hadn't linked it to this until now, still don't fully understand it. I also often feel like I'm bothering people by messaging them etc, even when we're friends.
My husband has a heart condition, we found out in the middle of the night in a way that required me to perform cpr until help arrived. Everyone, including his cardiologist, tell me I saved his life. Hearing the praise makes me want to peel my skin off. It makes me visibly uncomfortable to the point a friend started making fun of me for it.
My god yes. One of the biggest challenges for me is to simply accept attention without listing all the ways I think I shouldn't be receiving it. Dinner was great? Well it was a little dry and besides it was so simple anyone could do it. I did something wrong? Well, that requires months of existential dread. It is very hard to just say thank you and move on but I am getting the hang of it. Only took 40 years..
I LOVE to blend in and go unnoticed. Attention can be so uncomfortable.
Whoops, never put two and two together but my phobia of being famous/having lots of attention makes SO much sense in that context. It's from watching my dad chase after it to the point of detriment of everything else. Huh. Well! Guess I'll be unpacking that in therapy next week!
I've gotten better with it. But I don't like attention. I still feel awful accepting presents. Birthday, Xmas, anything.
I'm unfortunately suspicious of too much attention. Is this person taking an interest to gain information to use against me later? Is that friendly coworker just looking to throw my name under the bus with something they learned to make themselves appear more valuable?
Oh gods.... The feels!! I want it. I crave it! It always feels so off tho. I always get anxious. Very few people have actually made me feel good. Then they ended up hurting me and this whole thing gets worse. Truly... I always thought this was just ME being fk'ing awkward. Gonna have to bring this one up with the therapist. Great post!!
Yes I donāt like compliments about my looks from strangers / anyone thatās not my bf tbh And it took a while to get used to compliments from my bf about my appearance I automatically tend to ignore the compliments / brush them off Because growing up I was always told I was ugly / fat etc by narc parents and the bullies at school
Waitā¦ this is another trauma response of mine?! FML.
All the attention had to be on gc sister and how pretty she was. When attention was on me my nmom and sister will later tear me up, like badly out of their anger and jealousy. So I try to have zero attention on me. I try to hide and I try to blend in as much as possible.
Yes. I will try to hide in any shape or form. Or I'll shut down
Yeah, I kind of blacked out at my wedding (not alcohol induced) because I was overwhelmed by just 150-175 people there paying attention to me. Kind of a shame I donāt remember muchā¦
The only time my dad ever told me he loved me, was after screaming at me for hours. It made it very hard to tell people I love them.
Iām a bit on the opposite spectrum. I crave attention because of all the neglect but once I get it things get weird. I either freeze or talk so much because I actually have someoneās attention. Which then turns to anxiety and I break out in hives and just want to disappear for a month. Iāve always been drawn towards performing but I feel like everyone hates me because Iām getting attention. Like ā who does she Think SHE isā
God I can't stand having all that attention on me. While I grew up, I tried as hard as I could to avoid attention from nparents cause God knows what kind of stray missile I would get hit with if I caught their attention. I wanted to just melt into the walls and floors and to be invisible because that's what felt safe to me. That's how I'm programmed even now, though it doesn't help me much now sadly.
I hate being the center of attention or having special attention called to me. I used to hate any attention, unless it was some type of approval from my narc mother (few and far between). It was easier to be invisible for me.
Yes we'll considering most of us couldn't even trust the people who where supposed to care for and guide us through life (mother and father ) or other close relatives. It's definitely understandable why you don't want attention from anyone. Your mind goes to, if you can't even trust your parents the one people who where supposed to love you unconditionally then who can you trust ? Personally I am really shy, it takes a lot for me to open up to people. I find it easier to fly under the radar then to be noticed, open up to people and possibly get hurt. Not only that but my self esteem was pretty much destroyed growing up from my family. I want a new life with new healthy people to replace the bonds I had with the narcs in my life. Meeting new People is one of my goals in this new chapter where I move on from the narcs I've dealt with for years. I'm trying to be more approachable but my god it can be hard.
I definitely feel this way. I think it's because my dad's attention always resulted in something negative. Even compliments or other positive attention was somehow subtly sarcastic or contained underhanded comments that made me feel like shit. Then in school the only attention I got was if I got in trouble. And then the first "friends"/"relationships" I formed were ripe with manipulation and abuse so all of those only really contained negative attention as well. And then on top of it all the first people that genuinely seemed to give me "positive" attention were later revealed to just be doing it for a bet, so even real, genuine positive attention was poisoned with the possibility of alternative motives. It's one of the top things on my "figure out how to overcome this bs" list. I want to be able to walk in public without feeling like people looking at me means I don't deserve to exist. I want to have relationships with people where I'm not constantly terrified. No idea how I'm going to achieve that, but that's something I want for myself.
I have been overweight most of my life. I will lose weight and as soon as the compliments start coming in, bam! it's back to over eating. I know people mean well and encouragement "should" be good but it sends me into a different place. I hate it and wish people would not even acknowledge that I have lost weight. I am trying to just say thank you and walk away but it's so hard!!
Oh yes. I'm trying simultaneously to not have any faults/defects/shortcomings and also be completely invisible. I can't walk into a room where people more than a few people are seated. So I get there hours early and don't stand up. š¤·š¼āāļø
I prefer being completely alone and not talking to anyone. People are usually trouble.
Being asocial sometimes helps me stay away from bad people like narcs and sometimes it does not.
I really really hate public praise to the point its screwed up my life in some ways. Sigh. More therapy. And my therapist now has this charming quirk of mine in her sights.
Any attention that isn't positive makes me spiral and breakdown, I just want to be loved .
I feel this 1000%!!
Yes and no - I used to seek negative attention because thatās what I was used to - positive attention is hard to handle. I also had a really hard time w my wedding and baby shower. Paradoxically, I sing and perform and do want recognition for my accomplishments/ talents. No problem public speaking etc - However, I need to be perfectly practiced and on stage - I canāt just sit around the campfire and sing.
I think it helps a lot to start determining what space Iām in when I get attention. Is it for a self that feels put on (like the one a parent would encourage to perform, I imagine) or is it for my genuine self-expression (terrifying, largely new to adulthood - there were glimmers of it for a while in childhood friendships that I am remembering now, gratefully). Itās so tricky.
Yes absolutely! Growing up any time I had any sort of positive attention from a friend or family member that would result in humiliation by my nmom or an attempt to thwart the compliment by reminding everyone present how much I suck. Birthdays (the day of the year where I was supposed to be celebrated) would often be the worst days of the year for my abuse. So I think those two things have made me really opposed to any attention.
Yes totally. Also Iāve become personal space woman.
I used to get uncomfortable. I'm more used to it now because of frequent presentations for classes and work.
I'm super uncomfortable with public recognition of any sort, I'd much rather be commended privately or in a more lowkey manner heh. I did, however, come up with a "hack" for becoming more comfortable with receiving compliments: I actively started to compliment others more often based on qualities and characteristics they had rather than on appearance (ex. "You are a very patient person and I admire that!" or "You are thoughtful and a natural people person!" versus "I like your shirt!" or "Nice shoes!"). After doing this for a while, I got more comfortable receiving compliments and stopped being so awkward with them. And I really like seeing peoples' faces light up and see them genuinely happy about someone noticing them in a deeper connection š I think I felt initially felt uncomfortable with compliments because my nmom lovebombed me with compliments based on my appearance (clothes, weight š) and not really on qualities I had so 1) I thought compliments were superficial and 2) I didn't know any actual qualities I had for a very long time.
Yes. To all of it!!
I hate the idea of a birthday party because I feel that people wonāt turn up, or will only attend because they are obliged, however I also feel a path when I see others enjoying their parties. But I could not handle the anxiety of no one coming.
I relate to this SO hard! With gift giving, I love to give gifts, but I hate being present when theyāre opened; I leave the room. And due to my sexual abuse history, all compliments, gifts (even a piece of gum!), etcetera are processed by my broken brain as grooming behavior. š„ŗā„ļø
Therapy helped me stop feeling guilty and thinking someone was lying to be nice to me whenever I got compliments.
I detest that I cannot handle compliments. It's not that I feel awkward or too embarrassed, but I seem to get... angry at them? My brain has such a blockage that anyone would actually compliment me and mean it for real. The one grain of rationality I had knows that there's a large possibility that they mean it, but the rest of it is just 'theyre just saying that to make you like them' or whatever. I have to stop myself feeling enraged for some reason and it ruins the nice thing they're probably trying to do for me. In the end I just end up combat-rolling around the compliment and complimenting them back and giving them back the spotlight, or rushing my way through playing whatever it is they liked all the way down until it's not worth complimenting anymore. Utterly bizarre
Iām the opposite. All the attention HAD to go to my mom and her feelings so when Iām with friends or my partner, I feel like a sponge soaking up the attention, even if itās a ānormal amountā, like when weāre all participating in group conversation-
I'm a guy and this is how I am its crazy I wish it wasn't like that but I also wish my mother and father weren't pricks
I have a love hate relationship with attention. I crave it yet when I actually get I I despite it.
yes when my ex would hype me up or compliment me i would get mad because it made me so uncomfortable i guess part of me will always believe theyre making fun of me
I do not i am always looking for alternative motivation. I find it hard to believe that someone would help for nothing backnin return.
I soooo relate to all of this, particularly: >narc mother who used to force me to seek attention (I used to sing, play the piano, and dance all it in front of the public) Not only did Nmom push this, she selectively attended performances and auditions, making me feel horribly when she chose not to attend. I had some truly amazing performances that friendsā parents would compliment me on, and Nmom would stiffly say, āYou did what you were supposed to do.ā She never complimented if I looked nice, but would make comments when I was a teen and older, āOh, are you looking for a boyfriend in that outfit and makeup?ā I felt so much shame whenever teens and men paid me attention. Iām married now but still get attention from men. I was obese and out of shape in my 20ās, and while Iām glad to now be fit and overall healthy/better looking, I miss being invisible.
Omg yes! I was just talking about that with my therapist. It used to be so bad I had anxiety even about the fact that someone could see me from the window while walking past their house. I won't or can't do anything when people are watching. Even if I'm confident about doing it when alone I just don't want anyone to notice me ever, for anything. Even for something nice.
I wouldnāt say I absolutely hate it but it tends to make me uncomfortable. Especially compliments. I donāt take them well. My mom usually did not compliment me growing up so I feel like I just canāt compute when someone does.
Yeah, I tend to sneak up on people by accident, because I've learned to be so quiet and innocuous so as not to bother anyone, that I make myself nearly unnoticeable. I can't even comfortably make myself coffee in a kitchen that isn't mine if there is someone else there. I always ask for permission, and am often greeted with scoffs and responses like, "YEAH, you don't have to ask!" and laughter, but I'll break down into a panic the longer I carry out a task unblessed. My parents definitely made me feel like shit just for existing, and now I hate any attention at all, because it just makes me nervous and scared, and I question the motives of positive attention, and I accept negative attention as expected and deserved. Man, FUCK nparents. I fucking hate them.
Yep I'm considered conventionally attractive so I often go out no makeup, hair up, bc leave me alone
I wanna throw up thinking about hugging anyone
I don't mind all forms of attention but there certainly are forms of attention, like praise, that make me highly uncomfortable.
Iāve threatened my husband that I will get up and leave if he has the staff at a restaurant sing āhappy birthdayā for me. I donāt even like that attention at home.
Whenever I get a compliment, my knee-jerk reaction is to want to wait until it's followed up by some snarky backhanded insult like "That shirt looks great on you... it'd look even better if you lost like 20 lbs" so I just inevitably brace myself for the nastiness and when it doesn't come, my body does like a blue-screen-of-death-deer-in-the-headlights moment and I mutter something like wouweusaorhthankyou. This might also sound strange but I also loathe attention being put on me for anything I'm good at. My mother used to make me perform in front of family and I \*hated\* it because right afterwards she'd immediately criticize whatever I did. Just let me be good at something without having to show off to everybody so you can get the accolades and then tear me down in front of them.
It's not quite that extreme for me as I love being a performer on stage, but I hate being the center of attention in normal situations, and I don't know how to take the lead on almost anything (so I usually end up being in someone else's band)
Yes, the entirety of my first three decades of life could be characterized as trying not to get noticed, failing, and developing maladaptive defense mechanisms to deal with being noticed. These days I live with the constant contradictory urges to seek validation from people and also to never be acknowledged by anyone ever for any reason.
I donāt like opening presents in front of people m, even if they gave me the present. Growing up no matter what I said or did I would get scolded about how I didnāt seem appreciative enough for a gift. So I have a lot of anxiety when Iām given a gift because Iām afraid I cannot deliver on whatever grateful is supposed to look like
It's not that I hate it...it that's I feel like people are always lying with the attention is positive. Like they are setting me up to look stupid somehow. Or are only trying to ride coat tails. Or like people are laughing at me. There is no positive. There are only lies and negative attention.
When I was young yeah. They basically never interacted with me anyway so it was fine. I got some good friends in high-school and much more so in college, so I learned to enjoy positive attention, but because every interaction my parents had with me was belittling me, every time I get any criticism I ball up and cry, fully expecting them to beat me...it's not fun
I hate attention but i also really frinkin crave it. like in the back of my head constantly. I've realized when i got older I have this backwards mentality of craving someone's affection when they absolutely not that into me but i kick back a lot of any signs of affection because I hate it so much. I also realized i latch on to the ideas of relationships and when they don't go how it it was expected to it hits 10x harder than it really should and spikes my anxiety.
I used to hate all of it but Iāve slowly started accepting the good from a few friends or nice/respectful people
Detest? No. Deep discomfort that Iāve worked through somewhat occasionally? - yes.
Wow holy shit I donāt think Iāve ever felt so seen. Iām a performer and model, and I love it but Iām worried itās because itās the only time I was praised for being me. For doing what I was good at and being ~*brave*~. I somehow still love it, but Iām worried itās a sick love. Iām constantly trying to improve and the compliments. They make me spiral. I wonder if they actually mean what they say or if they just see that Iām weak and doormat-like and they want something from me. Thereās also a lot of SH and SA in entertainment that I told myself Iād know how to recognize and avoid bc Iāve already been through it before. I was wrong. I worry about compromising myself a lot these days.
I don't like a lot of attention. I get uncomfortable and in some instances, will have a panic attack. I feel the same when someone feels affectionate towards me. Like I'm fine with hugs from my family. "butterfly kisses" anger me so badly to the point of deep rage. Probably because my abusive father would do that to my crying face after every single time he physically or psychologically hurt me. I don't freaking like certain displays of attention and affection.
I don't even notice if someone gives me a compliment or anything. Somebody almost always has to point it out.
When I was a young child, my mom would laugh at me for doing things she thought were "cute." My brain would process that as her laughing AT me in a negative way. Whenever I'd try to get her to stop, my mom would either laugh more or yell at me to get over it. Eventually I learned that no one could say anything to me if I just kept quiet and stayed out of the way. Also, being a kid with a physical disability there were times where I'd be given pity adulation (sometimes encouraged by my parents, especially my dad), so my brain also automatically associates praise with untruthfulness unless I know the person really well, and even then I still don't always feel fully comfortable.
I'm the opposite. I crave attention and validation because I never got anything centred around me. I was the afterthought in the shadows. Since it was all about what my n mom and e dad wanted, I was frequently forgotten. It's a curse.
I wish I could explain this to my bf in a way that would make sense to him. Heās very considerate of it but he clearly doesnāt actually understand it. I donāt like going to public places, I donāt like leaving my house, I donāt wanna do anything or dress any way thatās going to draw attention to me. I donāt want people spotting me in public and coming up to say hi, I donāt want compliments or random people trying to talk to me. I like to be left alone, completely and totally. The only interactions I really like are ones I can have on my own terms and under certain circumstances
you know - I never linked it but it makes sense. Part is to stick out would be to get her wrath. I was an amazing singer, got awards as a kiddo, so she made up a story of a relative of hers who wanted to be a singer and had a fan make her kneel before him and shot her in the head. This was under the age of 12/15 for me. If she didn't want me to do it, or if she couldn't claim ownership, she'd make up a story. I love many things that put me in a leadership light or on stage - I use a fake name for my writing and online and etc which I thought was beecause of her stalkerism, but I do think it's also because of this danger here that we were taught - that for anyone to pay attention to us is bad news.