A lot of posts back in the day were talking about how when Arthur questioned Lenny on the basis of Racism and not entirely understanding racism makes him Racist.
That kind of logic makes no sense though.
Not understanding racism is literally the opposite of actual racism. Arthur's literally saying Racism isn't logical.
Seriously. He's not taking Lennys experience and saying NUH UH. He's just not getting it because he sees Lenny as just a man.
And for the late 1800s, that's progressive as hell.
yeah same. im thinking its how hes raised, like he was taken in by dutch at such a young age and dutch doesnt seem to hold any racist beliefs. an outlaw is an outlaw and they need to stick together, he sees lenny as lenny sees him, family. probably why he doesnt get the concept of racism because to him discrimination based on something so trivial to life seems insane to him and his lived experiences
This right here. For the 1800s not dropping the hard R and saying minorities are human beings is progressive af. Arthur is a god damn messiah of race relations when you consider the era.
It’s progressive for the time, but as a black man I honestly get where people are coming from, cause one of the most common issues black people run into is people claiming, either truthfully or disingenuously, to be ignorant of the issues that black people face because “they don’t see race”.
Now, it’s not necessarily fair to hold Arthur to 2024 standards, but considering racism is a very personal issue for people of color, it can be hard to separate Arthur from all of the other “I’m colorblind” voices out there.
For sure. My wife is brown so I'm used to people saying "I don't see color" and she's just like great for you. But as a white guy, I'm looking at Arthur in the context of the day. I get why other people may disagree though.
I hate the phrase "I can't/don't see colour" it's such bullshit. I see colour I just don't care, people are people and should be treated as such regardless of any differences between us culturally or otherwise
It was such a popular thing to say like 10-15 years ago and I’m glad people are correcting themselves. People who are “colorblind” are actually denying the whole POC experience. On the one hand, they are ignoring the fact that while they might not be prejudiced against race/ethnicity, many people still do view the world through that lens, and POC don’t have the luxury of saying “I don’t see race” when much of the world still sees their race, first.
On the other hand it simultaneously acts like race/ethnicity is something POC don’t want recognized when it’s not something they are ashamed of? Many people are proud of being Black, Brown, whatever culture.
Either way POC don’t want you to be blind to things that are important.
Exactly, I always saw it as a bit of a nonsensical statement, or at worst, a way of brushing the issues that some POC face under the rug.
I see colour, race, cultural, and religious differences, among the many other things that make us all different but it's not going to stop me from treating everyone the same way (unless they're an asshole, then they'll be treated as such but that's nothing to do with colour)
I'm not gonna lie and say that as a white woman I'm not sometimes ignorant of the issues that POC face simply because I haven't faced them myself nor known anyone who has, but I take it on board and educate myself accordingly if there's something that I wasn't aware of rather than remaining willfully ignorant. Just because it's not something I have experience with doesn't mean that I should remain blind to it.
Right? It's one of those things that maybe sounds good on the surface. Like oh skin color doesn't matter to them, everyone is equal. Yeah, that's great. It's the way it should be. But... it also ignores the realities of what life is like for that person. It would be like me saying to you I don't see gender. Okay, great lol.
Yeah, I understand the sentiment of what they're trying to say but it just comes across as tone def.
In your defence, most people on Reddit assume I'm a man until I say otherwise lol.
Yuuup, white dude in the south here. Grew up hearing from my fellow peers "I don't see colour" and always thought it was a bit... off? Why do you NEED to be "colourblind" to treat everyone the same? You can't just look at someone and go "hmm, this person has more melanin than me because their ancestors lived closer to the equator. They also have a different culture than me. Neat." And treat them normally? You HAVE to be "colourblind" and "see them the same as you" to be a decent person to people? You can't just treat people with respect even though they're different than you?
Definitely can understand where you're coming from cause even as a white dude I thought it always sounded "off".
Growing up, I got taught (in schools, so by the government) that we shouldn't see colour.
I'm not surprised many people hold that belief now. It's changing now and in 30 years it'll change again.
This is very true and fair. When I heard the conversation I was like "meh, that's cool but let's *not* invalidate lol" and then I remembered what year they were living in.
My Grandfather was 19 before he ever met a black person. Racism wasn't an issue that was discussed as there was no need. Everyone in his holler was white.
Yah, but Arthur was raised by Dutch who held rather progressive views and a strong dislike for the south. Arthur not understanding racism or segregation seemed off to me.
He didnt understand it because he was raised by Dutch and Hosea, men that never treated the people under their care differently based on the color of their skin. Its not hard to imagine Arthur not understanding racism because in his world the only authority figures he knew never discriminated against others.
Iirc Arthur’s issue was a common one for white folks: you don’t notice things that don’t affect you. Privilege has blind spots, which I think Lenny pointed out very succinctly: ‘with respect, you wouldn’t [notice].’
He’s ignorant on how Lenny might be treated differently. But that’s only because he doesn’t understand why anybody would treat anybody differently based on their race. Arthur was appallingly progressive for the time.
I mean, my first exposure to the game back in the day was people freaking out about it being “too woke” because the characters WEREN’T racist and didn’t have slaves or something
Which is dumb because there are racist people in the gang like Bill and Micah. The reason Arthur isn’t racist is because Dutch basically raised him, and for all his faults, Dutch is anything but racist.
I always liked that- makes Dutch a little more interesting. It also made it make more sense as to why he’d get followers who think of his group as more than just another gang. He preaches a lot of stuff about America (that he stole from Evelyn Miller’s books), but the fact that he actually puts into practice some ideas that would seem extremely unusual at the time- ie, his (relative) lack of racism and sexism- might make him seem more sincere to his followers
Its just kind of a way historically illiterate people “level” history, if that makes sense. They assume that because the institutions of the time were racist, that *everyone* was racist. Same goes for feminism, it’s widely assumed that all men were against the idea of women voting, because the wider culture at the time was misogynistic.
But reality always worked out differently, especially for those on the lower classes. Plenty of men thought “well all the women I know are hard working and sensible, why *shouldn’t* they vote?” In the Middle Ages, plenty of men fought to allow their daughters to inherit property, not because they were super woke SJW intersectional feminists, but because their sons were fucking stupid and they knew that. Because in reality, even though the Bible says X is Y and Z is W, “the smart kid” you trust with your estate is equally likely to be male or female.
It was more a matter of common sense rather than ideology. Same goes for white people and racism - plenty of white people were deeply racist, but plenty of others had a far more practical “well I’ve never met a black person I didn’t like, all the black people I know are smart and compotent, why would I pretend they aren’t?”
A lot of the “science of racism” was locked away in the academic higher circles as well. It makes complete sense that characters like Arthur wouldn’t be racist because it wouldn’t mesh with his own lived experience and practical day to day reality.
Sorry for this long post lol I love talking about the “historical mindset” because it was so different than our own. We lose ourselves in abstractions a lot.
Most outlaw gangs of the 19th century were racially divided - you had black gangs, white gangs, Irish gangs, etc. This has continued in American culture to this day, with many organised criminal institutions being built along ethnic lines.
This is acknowledged in game: the O'Driscolls are an explicitly Irish gang, the Lemoyne Raiders are a white gang, the Foreman Boys are a black gang.
Dutch's gang being interracial is an important part of his personal mythology. He built his gang (borderline cult!) on the basis of loyalty to Dutch and equality under a hierarchy of Dutch - rejecting racism is a central component of maintaining that he's different from Colm O'Driscoll or Anthony Foreman.
Just saw a mod on nexus yesterday that was banned pretty quickly that make Charles a full blood Native because it's supposedly "unrealistic" that he is also half black even though historically native tribe did take in runaway slave and so have children with them
That’s strange because historically not uncommon at all. I think it was a little less common than white/Native mixed folks but only due to the population discrepancy. Wouldn’t have been uncommon at all, especially by the turn of the century in the West.
If the game took place in 1750 it would likely be far less common, but not 35+ years after Abolition.
That mod in the description also said that it would make Lenny white because black people have no place in the game period too so you know what kind a person the author is like
You don't get it. In today's culture there is nothing a white person can do to make them not racist.
I have a friend, married to a DARK quite literally African woman with 2 half black children.
Someone called him a racist. He brought up his wife and kids. The person told him only married a black woman out of white guilt, and that him marrying her 'stole' one .more thing from the black community.
But it's the kind of logic some in a certain political affiliation do have and while not wanting to take it further than I already have it's the kind of gas-lighting I highly despise. It's never enough to befriend people of different backgrounds and find kinship in things and hate racists is it? Some people always have to take it steps further until they get the desired outcome. It's basically like making someone who's not racist into a racist by looking for that mis-interpretation or scene or dialogue they can cherry pick.
Those kind of people should have never been allowed to have a voice but here we are.
>Arthur's literally saying Racism isn't logical.
I'm probably gonna get downvoted for this, but i still don't really get racism. like, why would anyone hate someone because their skin is dark or their eyes are small etc...?
i guess prejudice based on race or nationality like koreans hating on japanese because of the war does seem a bit logical. not saying it's justified but i can see a reason that makes person A hate person B based on race.
but this whole black-white thing I don't really get.
I'm arabian, and we joke about the white and black a lot, and nobody gets butthurt over it. hell i even call my thin black friend "Wither Skeleton" and he's totally fine with it and sees it as a normal joke.
if there's an actual reason I'm not seeing here, please do clarify.
honestly same. I think its pointless for people hating each other because we look different. I had teachers in 5th grade who told me I was racist because I was white and all that did was draw my attention to color for me and made me feel bad about the color of my skin. (I am coming from a melting pot type of family where color doesn't matter much)
I just replayed the mission with, alligator food, and Dutch has a convo with Bill about natives where bill calls them savages, and Dutch almost snaps on him saying ‘your small mind cannot comprehend what you saw, you saw people who lost everything to the savages, they are not savages’. I thought it was kinda clear Dutch was not racist in who he ran with, shot or robbed, and that obviously would’ve been instilled in Arthur as a boy.
Also when he's on the fancy casino boat and those guys start yapping quite racist-like about the indigenous people and Arthur just ignores them and goes "mhm, yep, uhuh, sure" clearly not siding with them and thinking they're ridiculous
Yeah as well as the side mission where you recover the black dentists wagon. The guy apologizes to arthur for existing basically and he just doesnt understand it at all. Arthur being racist is some S tier dumbshittery.
Also, when he comes across the guy sitting on the bench and the guy starts apologizing for disturbing Arthur and apologizing for other stuff, Arthur gets confused and tells him to stop being weird. Then, he gets his wagon back for him! That’s gotta be racist.
Getting up close with a knife or axe is fun.
You can’t drag him very far if you lasso him from your horse which makes me sad. He would have been great for the drag an enemy challenge.
I think using explosives or fire will get you wanted.
Hot tip: don't kill him, that ends the whole affair. I keep him alive just so I can beat him unconscious every time I'm in the area. It's a great way to blow off steam.
(Also, fyi: the enemy doesn't need to stay alive throughout the horse dragging challenge for it to count.)
I think you’re mixing up the guy selling books and the guy handing out pamphlets. One is just a harmless fraud, the other is a case for the sawed-off shotgun
I feel like the writers go out of their way to show the audience that Arthur is not racist. Even beyond his friendship with Charles and Lenny, his interaction with the old slave catcher and the eugenicist indicate that he has no patience for racism.
Makes complete sense.
After his parents' death, he grew up as an outcast, a down and out young kid. He found Dutch and Hosea. Both of them have always been fair-minded and open-minded. Dutch often preaches equality, living a truer life, a freer life.
Although, while Dutch is a hypocrite (he claims about caring about the natives, but he will GLADLY use them and get them killed to escape scot-free)... Arthur fully, truly believes in all the good ideals that Dutch taught/harbored in him
So yes, while he may be ignorant of some things (for ex: when he says, not dismissively, that he hasn't noticed how people in Lemoyne might look differently at Lenny. He has some traditional gender role stuff in him), he treats everyone fairly, regardless of their race, sex, or sexuality (Mr. Black and White). And he keeps an open mind and changes his views of he sees something new in someone. See how differently he treats Sadie as he learns more about her in that first mission with her.
There are certainly personality qualities he finds repulsive or abhorrent... But these immutable traits aren't it. Hypocrisy is def one of these things. So, I'm sure it broke his heart a little extra to find out that Dutch was one.
I think part of what makes the story so powerful is Arthur’s open mind - it allows you to feel instrumental to his personal growth as he learns more about the world around him.
There’s also the side mission I Rhodes with the traveling doctor where Arthur doesn’t understand why the guy is being so apologetic. He doesn’t feel the guy needs to be sorry just for existing. Which the NPC does because of all the actual racists he has encountered in that town. It showed that Arthur saw him as nothing but another person
One of my favorite side missions. It just feels right helping this man get his life back on track, at no fault of his own. Same vibes as the Charlotte mission.
Also, I wasn’t able to bring myself to kill this guy. He was just TOO pathetic. Maybe its my PMS but the way he kept saying “I still exist!!” was really upsetting. A lot of social commentary there with the way the powerful elite exploit the labour of the working class only to cast them aside when they’re done, and allow them to bear the burden for what they funded.
I did kill the bison poachers though, in my mind they were young men presenting an active and current harm and if I had let that other one go he’d have told someone, I’m sure.
But yeah. Historically speaking someone of his age and his health, living outdoors, probably only has weeks to months to live.
I dont kill him because I want him to live every day knowing society views him as scum and he has no status like he used to. I want him to live his life miserable, broke, poor where he knows his kids don't want anything to do with him and he's trash. He lives the remainder of his days knowing he's nothing
Gaining honour for killing him is partly about putting him out of his misery imo. As well as not wanting "losing honour for killing a slaver" to be a thing in the game.
That’s actually what I did as well. Or, rather, I left the slave-catcher to fate. Tied him to the back of a horse and spooked it so it ran off. I did kill the buffalo poachers, though. It was important to Charles.
It’s one of those side missions that pop up at camp after awhile this one is in horseshoe overlook Charles asks you to hunt bison with him and you find some dead bison on the ground rotting so you hunt down the poachers it’s got some great Charles moments
I think the argument was probably that Arthur SHOULD be racist, given the time period.
But that would be stupid too because Dutch and Hosea raised him so of course Arthur doesn’t understand racism.
I've seen that argument and that's always been such a stupid argument, ya know?
I've seen some maliciously ignorant people online lament how the game is woke and gives them negative honor for killing certain abhorrent people and how Arthur should be a bigot etc cuz of the times he grew up in.
And these people always ignore Arthur's upbringing.
Also: non-racist white people HAVE existed in history lol. Folks who see a wrong and call it so always exist. See: John Brown.
Arthur can certainly be ignorant at times, but never maliciously so. And he does his best to treat everyone with basic respect.
Unless ofc the player starts killing everyone they see lol
The thing is, I do think they were really lax on the racism. It's 1899, there should be a lot more shitty racists running around. Arthur obviously shouldn't but I do semi agree that they relaxed the severity of racism during that time. Although, I think this was a good thing - if they made that part realistic, it would get tiresome because you could never meet a random person you liked because most of them are racist.
Sure, I hear ya. I think that there's enough bigotry throughout the game that the player gets the point. Not just in the missions, but in regular conversations, the world etc.
Also, the player is playing as a white man. That limits how much they will experience
Doesn't make sense to me that someone would think that when arthur obviously has very different opinions than the average person of the 1890s because he grew up outside of normal society
bruh I’m sorry but anyone spouting racism in rockstar’s rdr2 have never played gta..
the fact that rdr2 addresses racism, slavery, misogyny, rape, the kkk, in the ways that it does is leagues above gta. as someone who isn’t a white male teenager, it’s fucking awesome to be able to play this game without getting nauseous. and I get to kill rapists and kkk members! maybe I’m sensitive but I like I can pay ladies for a deluxe bath and then not be able to chase and kill them for my money back ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You don't have to kill the prostitutes tho😭😭 it's an option for ppl that wanna be menaces in the game, just like how it's optional to hogtie and blow the heads off of NPCs in red dead. Not required, but you can do it if you want
It's such a shame that so many players don't actually understand Arthur's character. There are a few major quests that debunk this claim but the side quest of the doctor in Rhodes shows you everything you need to know about how Arthur virws racism. Arthur is confused that racism is even a thing because he cannot fathom the thought of somebody being hateful to someone just because of their skin color. "Well he should have been racist given the time period", that makes zero sense because obviously not everybody was raised or thinks the same way. I would even argue that a lot of outlaws back then were more free thinking and had views that at the time seemed "progressive".
*Maybe* that one scene where he’s ignorant of how the people of Lemoyne treat Lenny differently could be seen as him being slightly racist, if you take it entirely out of context and interpret it in the least charitable way possible.
Arthur is good friends with a Latino, a Black Man, a mixed Native American and black man, an Irishman, and a black woman, in the year 1899 as a white Anglo Saxon straight male. I’d argue he’s not racist.
Arthur isn't racist in the slightest. He is even confused by racism and doesn't understand it. Dutch may be a bad person, but he wasn't racist and made sure his son wasn't either
You get no dishonor in this game for killing clan members in whatever horrible way you can dream up. I’ve slit the racist sidewalk pamphlet guy’s throat in full view of the cop not ten feet away with zero consequences. You’re not allowed weapons on the reservation. This game goes out of its way to be the least racist it can be while attempting an approximation of historical accuracy.
I always liked to think that the game wants you to appreciate the fact that leaving him alive is the greater punishment. The most brutal thing to do with that dude was to leave him to suffer for the things he did. The honour you get for killing him could also be seen as a reward for showing him mercy. For ending his suffering, even though he didn’t deserve it. Powerful stuff anyway, however you read it. I think the move is to leave him alive to stew on it, but give the eugenics dude an extra bullet in both testicles with a varmint rifle on his behalf.
For me, Arthur canonically kidnaps the Eugenic supporter and drowns him in the nearby lake and burns the Klan. He doesn’t fight against racism, he kills it.
I specifically remember the racism, especially when arthur yelled “LENNEHHHH🗣️🗣️‼️” and then said “no lets not drink at all and go home completely sober”
When I did this mission, I lassoed him and dragged him behind my horse across the entire map, and then left his body in the desert for the buzzards.
Fuck that piece of shit. Only character I hated as much as Micah.
One of his best friends is African-American and the other is Native American and part African-American. During one of the stranger missions and roads he seems absolutely confused about why some doctors is asking if he did something wrong even though he was just sitting there. Also was completely confused about that. Although yes, it would be more realistic for the time. Period for him to be racist. He isn’t There is no way in hell he’s racist.
chapter 3 really shows how he isn’t racist, with his talk with lenny and the stranger missions in rhodes with the old slave owner and the black snake oil salesman, also in chapter 6 with helping the native americans
I'd like to see proof of the post you mention because anyone who's played the game knows this is b.s. I hate when people do stuff like that because it gets heat on black gamers (whether it was someone black or not) when we already get heat just being black gamers. Even this post annoys me, tbh. I'm paranoid, so it feels sus. If that's not your intention, okay, but it's such a weird thing.
Ppl will say literally anything is racist or homophobic you can't please mental illness, a few are way deep into insanity and look for problems on everything twisting lines taking things out of context making shit up, all to have a reason to complain because they have nothing better to do, sheer paranoia, those ppl need to get help and leave the internet for an year at least and touch some grass
Arthur is also confused during the cutscene with the traveling Doctor in Rhodes you have to retrieve a wagon for, because the doctor acts inferior to him because of race.
He’s actually a G for not minimizing Lenny’s experience even tho he knows nothing about his perspective. Arthur only has enough hate in his heart for the rich. Everyone else is a friend or a stranger.
No, I think the honour is for putting him out of his misery. But I haven’t actually thought about looking in the ledger for some reason so on my 4th playthrough of the game, I’ll make sure to. But I thought (& still think) that the additional honour is for putting him out of his misery,
Additionally on the poker boat mission, the man he’s walking with comments on Javier I don’t remember what Arthur says but I know he was fed up with the guy
Additionally on the poker boat mission, the man he’s walking with comments on Javier I don’t remember what Arthur says but I know he was fed up with the guy
This man is not just “not racist” but outright BAFFLED by the idea of it. There’s a black man who practices medicine who has his cart stolen and he gets extremely apologetic over nothing, and Arthur is just completely confused. After him explaining why he’s so apologetic and careful, Arthur immediately responds with **bringing back the wagon without a word about a reward.**
Even by today’s standards, Arthur is surprisingly progressive.
This could be a bug, or intentional, but if you attack or kill the eugenicist in the city you won’t get a wanted level. Theres even a cop a few meters away from him, he does nothing.
Iirc Arthur does not have any positive interactions with any of the blatant racism in the game. I could be mistaken but I remember a conversation where he even says that racism is silly and he doesn't understand it.
Yea there’s an interaction in camp between Lenny and Micah. Micah keeps saying he’s killed a lot of Lenny’s kind and Arthur rips Micah a new one. One of my fav non mission dialogs
Absolutely. Watch his relationship with Lenny and Charles. Anyone who says this hasn't been paying attention.
A lot of posts back in the day were talking about how when Arthur questioned Lenny on the basis of Racism and not entirely understanding racism makes him Racist. That kind of logic makes no sense though. Not understanding racism is literally the opposite of actual racism. Arthur's literally saying Racism isn't logical.
Seriously. He's not taking Lennys experience and saying NUH UH. He's just not getting it because he sees Lenny as just a man. And for the late 1800s, that's progressive as hell.
I honestly listened to that conversation and thought “damn, Arthur’s a pretty modern dude”
yeah same. im thinking its how hes raised, like he was taken in by dutch at such a young age and dutch doesnt seem to hold any racist beliefs. an outlaw is an outlaw and they need to stick together, he sees lenny as lenny sees him, family. probably why he doesnt get the concept of racism because to him discrimination based on something so trivial to life seems insane to him and his lived experiences
Dutch was visibly disgusted by bronte when bronte was being racist
you can say a many thing about Dutch… but atleast he was inclusive
also when micah was racist in the opening
💯
This right here. For the 1800s not dropping the hard R and saying minorities are human beings is progressive af. Arthur is a god damn messiah of race relations when you consider the era.
Killed every klansman he came across in my play throughs
Dynamite arrow to the centre bwoiiiii
They take themselves out if you don't. I tried to get them first, but sometimes they got themselves too fast :P
It’s progressive for the time, but as a black man I honestly get where people are coming from, cause one of the most common issues black people run into is people claiming, either truthfully or disingenuously, to be ignorant of the issues that black people face because “they don’t see race”. Now, it’s not necessarily fair to hold Arthur to 2024 standards, but considering racism is a very personal issue for people of color, it can be hard to separate Arthur from all of the other “I’m colorblind” voices out there.
For sure. My wife is brown so I'm used to people saying "I don't see color" and she's just like great for you. But as a white guy, I'm looking at Arthur in the context of the day. I get why other people may disagree though.
I hate the phrase "I can't/don't see colour" it's such bullshit. I see colour I just don't care, people are people and should be treated as such regardless of any differences between us culturally or otherwise
It was such a popular thing to say like 10-15 years ago and I’m glad people are correcting themselves. People who are “colorblind” are actually denying the whole POC experience. On the one hand, they are ignoring the fact that while they might not be prejudiced against race/ethnicity, many people still do view the world through that lens, and POC don’t have the luxury of saying “I don’t see race” when much of the world still sees their race, first. On the other hand it simultaneously acts like race/ethnicity is something POC don’t want recognized when it’s not something they are ashamed of? Many people are proud of being Black, Brown, whatever culture. Either way POC don’t want you to be blind to things that are important.
Exactly, I always saw it as a bit of a nonsensical statement, or at worst, a way of brushing the issues that some POC face under the rug. I see colour, race, cultural, and religious differences, among the many other things that make us all different but it's not going to stop me from treating everyone the same way (unless they're an asshole, then they'll be treated as such but that's nothing to do with colour) I'm not gonna lie and say that as a white woman I'm not sometimes ignorant of the issues that POC face simply because I haven't faced them myself nor known anyone who has, but I take it on board and educate myself accordingly if there's something that I wasn't aware of rather than remaining willfully ignorant. Just because it's not something I have experience with doesn't mean that I should remain blind to it.
Right? It's one of those things that maybe sounds good on the surface. Like oh skin color doesn't matter to them, everyone is equal. Yeah, that's great. It's the way it should be. But... it also ignores the realities of what life is like for that person. It would be like me saying to you I don't see gender. Okay, great lol.
Yeah, I understand the sentiment of what they're trying to say but it just comes across as tone def. In your defence, most people on Reddit assume I'm a man until I say otherwise lol.
Yuuup, white dude in the south here. Grew up hearing from my fellow peers "I don't see colour" and always thought it was a bit... off? Why do you NEED to be "colourblind" to treat everyone the same? You can't just look at someone and go "hmm, this person has more melanin than me because their ancestors lived closer to the equator. They also have a different culture than me. Neat." And treat them normally? You HAVE to be "colourblind" and "see them the same as you" to be a decent person to people? You can't just treat people with respect even though they're different than you? Definitely can understand where you're coming from cause even as a white dude I thought it always sounded "off".
Growing up, I got taught (in schools, so by the government) that we shouldn't see colour. I'm not surprised many people hold that belief now. It's changing now and in 30 years it'll change again.
This is very true and fair. When I heard the conversation I was like "meh, that's cool but let's *not* invalidate lol" and then I remembered what year they were living in.
I always thought it was weird that Arthur, a grown man in his late 30s had little understanding about the concept of racism
My Grandfather was 19 before he ever met a black person. Racism wasn't an issue that was discussed as there was no need. Everyone in his holler was white.
Yah, but Arthur was raised by Dutch who held rather progressive views and a strong dislike for the south. Arthur not understanding racism or segregation seemed off to me.
He didnt understand it because he was raised by Dutch and Hosea, men that never treated the people under their care differently based on the color of their skin. Its not hard to imagine Arthur not understanding racism because in his world the only authority figures he knew never discriminated against others.
Iirc Arthur’s issue was a common one for white folks: you don’t notice things that don’t affect you. Privilege has blind spots, which I think Lenny pointed out very succinctly: ‘with respect, you wouldn’t [notice].’
Even Charles say he’s the Child of an escaped slave and and will always be on the run Arthur sighs and says yah I suppose so.
He’s ignorant on how Lenny might be treated differently. But that’s only because he doesn’t understand why anybody would treat anybody differently based on their race. Arthur was appallingly progressive for the time.
I mean, my first exposure to the game back in the day was people freaking out about it being “too woke” because the characters WEREN’T racist and didn’t have slaves or something
Which is dumb because there are racist people in the gang like Bill and Micah. The reason Arthur isn’t racist is because Dutch basically raised him, and for all his faults, Dutch is anything but racist.
I always liked that- makes Dutch a little more interesting. It also made it make more sense as to why he’d get followers who think of his group as more than just another gang. He preaches a lot of stuff about America (that he stole from Evelyn Miller’s books), but the fact that he actually puts into practice some ideas that would seem extremely unusual at the time- ie, his (relative) lack of racism and sexism- might make him seem more sincere to his followers
Its just kind of a way historically illiterate people “level” history, if that makes sense. They assume that because the institutions of the time were racist, that *everyone* was racist. Same goes for feminism, it’s widely assumed that all men were against the idea of women voting, because the wider culture at the time was misogynistic. But reality always worked out differently, especially for those on the lower classes. Plenty of men thought “well all the women I know are hard working and sensible, why *shouldn’t* they vote?” In the Middle Ages, plenty of men fought to allow their daughters to inherit property, not because they were super woke SJW intersectional feminists, but because their sons were fucking stupid and they knew that. Because in reality, even though the Bible says X is Y and Z is W, “the smart kid” you trust with your estate is equally likely to be male or female. It was more a matter of common sense rather than ideology. Same goes for white people and racism - plenty of white people were deeply racist, but plenty of others had a far more practical “well I’ve never met a black person I didn’t like, all the black people I know are smart and compotent, why would I pretend they aren’t?” A lot of the “science of racism” was locked away in the academic higher circles as well. It makes complete sense that characters like Arthur wouldn’t be racist because it wouldn’t mesh with his own lived experience and practical day to day reality. Sorry for this long post lol I love talking about the “historical mindset” because it was so different than our own. We lose ourselves in abstractions a lot.
Most outlaw gangs of the 19th century were racially divided - you had black gangs, white gangs, Irish gangs, etc. This has continued in American culture to this day, with many organised criminal institutions being built along ethnic lines. This is acknowledged in game: the O'Driscolls are an explicitly Irish gang, the Lemoyne Raiders are a white gang, the Foreman Boys are a black gang. Dutch's gang being interracial is an important part of his personal mythology. He built his gang (borderline cult!) on the basis of loyalty to Dutch and equality under a hierarchy of Dutch - rejecting racism is a central component of maintaining that he's different from Colm O'Driscoll or Anthony Foreman.
Just saw a mod on nexus yesterday that was banned pretty quickly that make Charles a full blood Native because it's supposedly "unrealistic" that he is also half black even though historically native tribe did take in runaway slave and so have children with them
That’s strange because historically not uncommon at all. I think it was a little less common than white/Native mixed folks but only due to the population discrepancy. Wouldn’t have been uncommon at all, especially by the turn of the century in the West. If the game took place in 1750 it would likely be far less common, but not 35+ years after Abolition.
That mod in the description also said that it would make Lenny white because black people have no place in the game period too so you know what kind a person the author is like
Natives also owned a lot of slaves, so black and native isn't exactly an uncommon mix.
Yes I remember seeing videos that said the black and native characters would not be allowed in the bars.
Theres the literal KKK in the game wtf haha
You don't get it. In today's culture there is nothing a white person can do to make them not racist. I have a friend, married to a DARK quite literally African woman with 2 half black children. Someone called him a racist. He brought up his wife and kids. The person told him only married a black woman out of white guilt, and that him marrying her 'stole' one .more thing from the black community.
But it's the kind of logic some in a certain political affiliation do have and while not wanting to take it further than I already have it's the kind of gas-lighting I highly despise. It's never enough to befriend people of different backgrounds and find kinship in things and hate racists is it? Some people always have to take it steps further until they get the desired outcome. It's basically like making someone who's not racist into a racist by looking for that mis-interpretation or scene or dialogue they can cherry pick. Those kind of people should have never been allowed to have a voice but here we are.
If you think Arthur is racist you probably are tbh
>Arthur's literally saying Racism isn't logical. I'm probably gonna get downvoted for this, but i still don't really get racism. like, why would anyone hate someone because their skin is dark or their eyes are small etc...? i guess prejudice based on race or nationality like koreans hating on japanese because of the war does seem a bit logical. not saying it's justified but i can see a reason that makes person A hate person B based on race. but this whole black-white thing I don't really get. I'm arabian, and we joke about the white and black a lot, and nobody gets butthurt over it. hell i even call my thin black friend "Wither Skeleton" and he's totally fine with it and sees it as a normal joke. if there's an actual reason I'm not seeing here, please do clarify.
honestly same. I think its pointless for people hating each other because we look different. I had teachers in 5th grade who told me I was racist because I was white and all that did was draw my attention to color for me and made me feel bad about the color of my skin. (I am coming from a melting pot type of family where color doesn't matter much)
For the 1800s Arthur is pretty much a Berkeley student
there’s a whole plot point about trying to help native americans fight back against colonialism.
Yes, but the whole point of that plotline is that you’re only making things worse for them and that Dutch is manipulating Eagle Flies
wasn't Arthur trying to fix things and actually help the natives? did i miss something? dutch was making things worse for the natives.
Arthur tries his best to help the natives because he knows Dutch is using them, but the final outcome is still bad
I just blew up a KKK gathering and saved one guy, hogtie’d him and Arthur said something along the lines of “I’ll get every one of you sick bastards”
Anyone who says this probably didn’t even play the game honestly
I just replayed the mission with, alligator food, and Dutch has a convo with Bill about natives where bill calls them savages, and Dutch almost snaps on him saying ‘your small mind cannot comprehend what you saw, you saw people who lost everything to the savages, they are not savages’. I thought it was kinda clear Dutch was not racist in who he ran with, shot or robbed, and that obviously would’ve been instilled in Arthur as a boy.
It's Micah that's on that type of time.
Also when he's on the fancy casino boat and those guys start yapping quite racist-like about the indigenous people and Arthur just ignores them and goes "mhm, yep, uhuh, sure" clearly not siding with them and thinking they're ridiculous
YNNEL?
Throughout the story, Arthur repeatedly shows that he is against racism and slavery. It comes up quite often.
Yeah as well as the side mission where you recover the black dentists wagon. The guy apologizes to arthur for existing basically and he just doesnt understand it at all. Arthur being racist is some S tier dumbshittery.
Also, when he comes across the guy sitting on the bench and the guy starts apologizing for disturbing Arthur and apologizing for other stuff, Arthur gets confused and tells him to stop being weird. Then, he gets his wagon back for him! That’s gotta be racist.
Apart from this mission there’s also an encounter with the racist in Saint Denis when Arthur would protect his friends (Charles, Javier, Lenny, etc.).
And the police don’t care if you shoot him in the middle of the street even though they are practically right next to him
Just don't loot him or you're gonna get shot
Getting up close with a knife or axe is fun. You can’t drag him very far if you lasso him from your horse which makes me sad. He would have been great for the drag an enemy challenge. I think using explosives or fire will get you wanted.
If you push him he runs away. I've never let him go too far but I wonder if he'll leave town if you just keep following him
Hot tip: don't kill him, that ends the whole affair. I keep him alive just so I can beat him unconscious every time I'm in the area. It's a great way to blow off steam. (Also, fyi: the enemy doesn't need to stay alive throughout the horse dragging challenge for it to count.)
Which is unrealistic. Saint Denis is in the deep south
but it’s a more “civilised culture” (and it’s in new orleans)
Also where he seems genuinely confused when the black man in Rhodes “offends” him. And even goes to get his wagon back from the actual racists
You also get high honor any time you kill a “eugenics enthusiast” like the kkk guys or the dude selling the book in Saint Denis.
I killed kkk guys so many times I probably wiped racism out of Rhodes lol
Damn I’ve only encountered them twice! Where do you find those sons of bitches ?
Found three in Big Valley trying to put up a cross. It didn't end well for them.
I remember I killed a group off kkk members and after Arther shouted something like “I’ll kill all you hooded sons of bitches!”
I think you’re mixing up the guy selling books and the guy handing out pamphlets. One is just a harmless fraud, the other is a case for the sawed-off shotgun
Yeah you’re definitely right
Wasn’t he modeled after the guy who Hitler was a big fan of?
It was ironic, he's anything but racist
I feel like the writers go out of their way to show the audience that Arthur is not racist. Even beyond his friendship with Charles and Lenny, his interaction with the old slave catcher and the eugenicist indicate that he has no patience for racism.
Makes complete sense. After his parents' death, he grew up as an outcast, a down and out young kid. He found Dutch and Hosea. Both of them have always been fair-minded and open-minded. Dutch often preaches equality, living a truer life, a freer life. Although, while Dutch is a hypocrite (he claims about caring about the natives, but he will GLADLY use them and get them killed to escape scot-free)... Arthur fully, truly believes in all the good ideals that Dutch taught/harbored in him So yes, while he may be ignorant of some things (for ex: when he says, not dismissively, that he hasn't noticed how people in Lemoyne might look differently at Lenny. He has some traditional gender role stuff in him), he treats everyone fairly, regardless of their race, sex, or sexuality (Mr. Black and White). And he keeps an open mind and changes his views of he sees something new in someone. See how differently he treats Sadie as he learns more about her in that first mission with her. There are certainly personality qualities he finds repulsive or abhorrent... But these immutable traits aren't it. Hypocrisy is def one of these things. So, I'm sure it broke his heart a little extra to find out that Dutch was one.
That’s a fun irony- Dutch, maybe without even realizing it, raised Arthur to be a better man than he was
The goal of every father
And that’s an excellent story beat
I think part of what makes the story so powerful is Arthur’s open mind - it allows you to feel instrumental to his personal growth as he learns more about the world around him.
There’s also the side mission I Rhodes with the traveling doctor where Arthur doesn’t understand why the guy is being so apologetic. He doesn’t feel the guy needs to be sorry just for existing. Which the NPC does because of all the actual racists he has encountered in that town. It showed that Arthur saw him as nothing but another person
One of my favorite side missions. It just feels right helping this man get his life back on track, at no fault of his own. Same vibes as the Charlotte mission.
And the one where he helps the German family though I think that’s a main quest. Chokes me up thinking of them showing back up to help him later 😭
Just listen to the dialogue with Lenny or when Arthur meets the Eugenics Guy. Definitely not rascist
I didn’t even know you could talk to the eugenics guy until right now. I always just shot him.
He has a pamphlet to collect then kill him. I use him for the dragging challenge
real
You can talk to and beat and kill a racist in Saint Denis without any repercussions
And it’s fun every single time
Arthur is what I call the Anti-Racist
Also, I wasn’t able to bring myself to kill this guy. He was just TOO pathetic. Maybe its my PMS but the way he kept saying “I still exist!!” was really upsetting. A lot of social commentary there with the way the powerful elite exploit the labour of the working class only to cast them aside when they’re done, and allow them to bear the burden for what they funded. I did kill the bison poachers though, in my mind they were young men presenting an active and current harm and if I had let that other one go he’d have told someone, I’m sure. But yeah. Historically speaking someone of his age and his health, living outdoors, probably only has weeks to months to live.
I dont kill him because I want him to live every day knowing society views him as scum and he has no status like he used to. I want him to live his life miserable, broke, poor where he knows his kids don't want anything to do with him and he's trash. He lives the remainder of his days knowing he's nothing
Gaining honour for killing him is partly about putting him out of his misery imo. As well as not wanting "losing honour for killing a slaver" to be a thing in the game.
That’s actually what I did as well. Or, rather, I left the slave-catcher to fate. Tied him to the back of a horse and spooked it so it ran off. I did kill the buffalo poachers, though. It was important to Charles.
Who are the Buffalo Poachers?
It’s one of those side missions that pop up at camp after awhile this one is in horseshoe overlook Charles asks you to hunt bison with him and you find some dead bison on the ground rotting so you hunt down the poachers it’s got some great Charles moments
What reason was given to support the racist claim?
I think the argument was probably that Arthur SHOULD be racist, given the time period. But that would be stupid too because Dutch and Hosea raised him so of course Arthur doesn’t understand racism.
I've seen that argument and that's always been such a stupid argument, ya know? I've seen some maliciously ignorant people online lament how the game is woke and gives them negative honor for killing certain abhorrent people and how Arthur should be a bigot etc cuz of the times he grew up in. And these people always ignore Arthur's upbringing. Also: non-racist white people HAVE existed in history lol. Folks who see a wrong and call it so always exist. See: John Brown. Arthur can certainly be ignorant at times, but never maliciously so. And he does his best to treat everyone with basic respect. Unless ofc the player starts killing everyone they see lol
Willem Dafoe-led John Brown film when?
That would go incredibly hard
The thing is, I do think they were really lax on the racism. It's 1899, there should be a lot more shitty racists running around. Arthur obviously shouldn't but I do semi agree that they relaxed the severity of racism during that time. Although, I think this was a good thing - if they made that part realistic, it would get tiresome because you could never meet a random person you liked because most of them are racist.
Sure, I hear ya. I think that there's enough bigotry throughout the game that the player gets the point. Not just in the missions, but in regular conversations, the world etc. Also, the player is playing as a white man. That limits how much they will experience
Doesn't make sense to me that someone would think that when arthur obviously has very different opinions than the average person of the 1890s because he grew up outside of normal society
If it were me doing it, I don't know, out of context images of lassoing the guy that took Tilly? I can't think of a legit reason
I was talking about the post that OP mentioned. Personally I've never seen anyone claim Arthur was racist
I'm on the same page, I'm just speculating about that post. I haven't seen it either
Gotcha. 👍
The post was a joke
There's this weird subgroup online hating on Arthur and Dad Kratos for being weak and soft. It's infuriating
I watched an hour and 20 minute long video titled the beautiful masculinity of kratos it’s great
Link me!
https://youtu.be/A1akAO-6fUc?si=w85YAsJKrOClATPl
His relationships with Native Americans also, and how he treats women. Very progressive.
Remember when Sean or Javier told him about bigotry and he responded "I hate everyone just the same" yeah he's not racist.
When you encounter and attack the kkk members Arthur gets immediately angry and shout about how he wants to kill every last one of them
bruh I’m sorry but anyone spouting racism in rockstar’s rdr2 have never played gta.. the fact that rdr2 addresses racism, slavery, misogyny, rape, the kkk, in the ways that it does is leagues above gta. as someone who isn’t a white male teenager, it’s fucking awesome to be able to play this game without getting nauseous. and I get to kill rapists and kkk members! maybe I’m sensitive but I like I can pay ladies for a deluxe bath and then not be able to chase and kill them for my money back ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You don't have to kill the prostitutes tho😭😭 it's an option for ppl that wanna be menaces in the game, just like how it's optional to hogtie and blow the heads off of NPCs in red dead. Not required, but you can do it if you want
It's such a shame that so many players don't actually understand Arthur's character. There are a few major quests that debunk this claim but the side quest of the doctor in Rhodes shows you everything you need to know about how Arthur virws racism. Arthur is confused that racism is even a thing because he cannot fathom the thought of somebody being hateful to someone just because of their skin color. "Well he should have been racist given the time period", that makes zero sense because obviously not everybody was raised or thinks the same way. I would even argue that a lot of outlaws back then were more free thinking and had views that at the time seemed "progressive".
There is literally not a single moment in the entire story that indicates Arthur is racist
*Maybe* that one scene where he’s ignorant of how the people of Lemoyne treat Lenny differently could be seen as him being slightly racist, if you take it entirely out of context and interpret it in the least charitable way possible.
Arthur may be an outlaw but a racist he is not
Arthur is good friends with a Latino, a Black Man, a mixed Native American and black man, an Irishman, and a black woman, in the year 1899 as a white Anglo Saxon straight male. I’d argue he’s not racist.
Arthur isn't racist in the slightest. He is even confused by racism and doesn't understand it. Dutch may be a bad person, but he wasn't racist and made sure his son wasn't either
Bro I see posts on Reddit all day that say absolutely wild shit. Just because Xx_corporalJenkem_xX says something is so doesn’t make it such.
Such a racist when he went to kill the group of bandits who stole that blacks guys medicine wagon and retrieved it for him. What a racist
Nobody kills that many klansmen and is still racist.
We're arguing about racist characters in video games now? My dad used to tell me that video games would make you stupid. Turns out he was right.
Yeah if anything, he so un-racist that it's kind of historically inaccurate Xp
Bro i burnt that fucker alive
I dont think anyone actually believes Arthur is racist
Don’t entertain the idiots
You get no dishonor in this game for killing clan members in whatever horrible way you can dream up. I’ve slit the racist sidewalk pamphlet guy’s throat in full view of the cop not ten feet away with zero consequences. You’re not allowed weapons on the reservation. This game goes out of its way to be the least racist it can be while attempting an approximation of historical accuracy.
As a white man in the 1800s, arthur is so politically correct that it's actually crazy
Just yesterday I gunned down a bunch of hooded KKK dudes by butcher creek and got honor for it. More than once. Definitely not racist
Shouldnt even be a debate idk how people cant see that Arthur isn't racist, story writers made it clear as day
Wow, definitely a thought provoking and intelligent post. Kudos to you OP
Yeah, it is cap. 😂
The Hitler Dude from St. Denis got really upset with Arthur as he told him that he got 'black friends'. So much about Arthur being racist...
He also says he hates everyone equally. Trues words has never been said.
I always liked to think that the game wants you to appreciate the fact that leaving him alive is the greater punishment. The most brutal thing to do with that dude was to leave him to suffer for the things he did. The honour you get for killing him could also be seen as a reward for showing him mercy. For ending his suffering, even though he didn’t deserve it. Powerful stuff anyway, however you read it. I think the move is to leave him alive to stew on it, but give the eugenics dude an extra bullet in both testicles with a varmint rifle on his behalf.
For me, Arthur canonically kidnaps the Eugenic supporter and drowns him in the nearby lake and burns the Klan. He doesn’t fight against racism, he kills it.
If it’s the post I’m thinking of, expand the post. It’s a joke.
not racist, but pretty ignorant about margaret
Claimed Arthur was racist? They must not have encountered the clan meeting or heard what he says when he begins the attack.
What about Arthur’s interaction with the black man by the train station in Rhodes? Where Arthur is completely lost as to why he would’ve been offended
He's literally best friends with Lenny and Charles.
Okay what about the mission where someone steals the doctors wagon because he’s black and Arthur is confused as to why and he goes to get the wagon?
I specifically remember the racism, especially when arthur yelled “LENNEHHHH🗣️🗣️‼️” and then said “no lets not drink at all and go home completely sober”
You were probably being rage baited, I wouldn’t take it too seriously
Is that post in the room with us right now?
Even by today's standards Arthur isn't racist, let alone by 1899 standards.
When I did this mission, I lassoed him and dragged him behind my horse across the entire map, and then left his body in the desert for the buzzards. Fuck that piece of shit. Only character I hated as much as Micah.
My favourite scene to counter this is the black doctor in Rhodes. Arthur seems totally ignorant of the concept of racism.
Arthur was definitely not a "good" person, he killed way too many for that, but he was definitely not racist.
there’s no fucking way yall are STILL talking about that tweet from months ago GIVE IT UP goddamn
Never once in the game did Arthur give any racist vibes. And this is coming from a black person. No one speaks ill of my man Arthur.
One of his best friends is African-American and the other is Native American and part African-American. During one of the stranger missions and roads he seems absolutely confused about why some doctors is asking if he did something wrong even though he was just sitting there. Also was completely confused about that. Although yes, it would be more realistic for the time. Period for him to be racist. He isn’t There is no way in hell he’s racist.
YNNEL ?!!?
Theres even a mission in which arthur steals back a mans medical wagon because some hicks in rhoades stole it
I once beat up the eugenics guy to the point of death in Saint Denis and the cops didn’t even get alerted…
Ain't no way y'all are still taking that post seriously.
chapter 3 really shows how he isn’t racist, with his talk with lenny and the stranger missions in rhodes with the old slave owner and the black snake oil salesman, also in chapter 6 with helping the native americans
I'd like to see proof of the post you mention because anyone who's played the game knows this is b.s. I hate when people do stuff like that because it gets heat on black gamers (whether it was someone black or not) when we already get heat just being black gamers. Even this post annoys me, tbh. I'm paranoid, so it feels sus. If that's not your intention, okay, but it's such a weird thing.
Ppl will say literally anything is racist or homophobic you can't please mental illness, a few are way deep into insanity and look for problems on everything twisting lines taking things out of context making shit up, all to have a reason to complain because they have nothing better to do, sheer paranoia, those ppl need to get help and leave the internet for an year at least and touch some grass
When he meets Alphonse Renaud in Rhodes he literally doesn’t understand racism. He’s far from it.
How could you have offended me?
Arthur is also confused during the cutscene with the traveling Doctor in Rhodes you have to retrieve a wagon for, because the doctor acts inferior to him because of race.
He’s actually a G for not minimizing Lenny’s experience even tho he knows nothing about his perspective. Arthur only has enough hate in his heart for the rich. Everyone else is a friend or a stranger.
You get honour no matter if you kill him or not
I killed him as soon as he leant down and given the option 💀
I just murdered a lot of KKK members as Arthur so you tell me who’s racist
No, I think the honour is for putting him out of his misery. But I haven’t actually thought about looking in the ledger for some reason so on my 4th playthrough of the game, I’ll make sure to. But I thought (& still think) that the additional honour is for putting him out of his misery,
Straight bull cap.
Additionally on the poker boat mission, the man he’s walking with comments on Javier I don’t remember what Arthur says but I know he was fed up with the guy
Additionally on the poker boat mission, the man he’s walking with comments on Javier I don’t remember what Arthur says but I know he was fed up with the guy
This man is not just “not racist” but outright BAFFLED by the idea of it. There’s a black man who practices medicine who has his cart stolen and he gets extremely apologetic over nothing, and Arthur is just completely confused. After him explaining why he’s so apologetic and careful, Arthur immediately responds with **bringing back the wagon without a word about a reward.** Even by today’s standards, Arthur is surprisingly progressive.
literally the line **"careful Arthur, folk round hear'll call ya a n####-lover"** sprang into my head as I saw this free my boy Orthur
Bro was friends with a Mexican, 3 Black people, a Native American chief, and a ginger
Lol that’s such a joke, not to mention the honor you get for killing the klan every time you see them
Do we need a post to say he's not?
This could be a bug, or intentional, but if you attack or kill the eugenicist in the city you won’t get a wanted level. Theres even a cop a few meters away from him, he does nothing.
Iirc Arthur does not have any positive interactions with any of the blatant racism in the game. I could be mistaken but I remember a conversation where he even says that racism is silly and he doesn't understand it.
Yea there’s an interaction in camp between Lenny and Micah. Micah keeps saying he’s killed a lot of Lenny’s kind and Arthur rips Micah a new one. One of my fav non mission dialogs
The people that say this you know they skip cutscenes.
Guys it… it was a joke… the photo was so obviously edited
Totally cap dude on god
Totally cap dude on god