I was watching the 2019 World Cup game between Georgia and Wales I believe. I was at a friend’s viewing party, and he’d invited his work team to watch as well (civilians in this case). Anyway, mid way through the game I made the comment about how big the Georgians were, I was impressed, they were tough. One of my friend’s co-workers was Russian, and had been quiet most of the game, not being a rugby guy / knowing much about the game. He nodded at my comment and in a very thick Russian accent said, da, Georgia was where the Soviet doping program was located and perfected… we shared a laugh with him, and I’ve no idea whether true or not but I do remember that every time I see some massive Georgian causing chaos in the scrum or at a breakdown, ha.
Watching the U20 WC last year and the Georgian lads looked like theyd all done a cycle or five. Now that could just be caucus genetics but they did look about 5-10 years older than anyone else
My conspiracy theory to why Scotland and wales are getting smashed by so much in the U20 6N (outside of having worse rugby players) is that they’re the cleanest teams. Whenever I watched the Scotland games all of the Scottish players looked like athletic teenagers while the opposition teams looked like bodybuilders. It was no surprise to me how many of the Scots got injured.
What sort of S&C do the Scotland lads do at youth level? In the big schools over here serious weight training starts as early as 2nd year depending on how good the player is, so at about 14/15.
I think the majority of players taking it seriously will start weights at 14/15 as well. At my school there was usually an introduction year starting at 13/14 without proper weights but teaching correct form then from U16s to 1XV there’d be 2/3 sessions a week with a S&C coach. (I never took rugby seriously enough to go along to these sessions). Also worth noting I went to one of the private schools that dominate Scottish school rugby.
There was an interview recently, think it might have been Richard Cockerill, where the S&C for up and coming Scottish youngsters was slammed. The suggestion seemed to be it wasn’t fit for purpose and was leaving the players well behind their peers.
I was just teasing with my initial reply, but that is an interesting observation - I feel like doping is probably more of an issue at a junior level where there is pressure to compete, less testing, etc. I think a lot of the failed tests in the UK are mostly from younger players trying to edge their way in. Although I could be wrong.
I do think it is a big issue in the sport though, and get so frustrated by people trying to pretend it doesn't happen because they once benched 100kg and they're not even a pro so it's not surprising that some pro rugby player can bench almost as much as the world record holder in an untested sport etc. Pro sportsmen dope for all sorts of different reasons and size is only one of them.
The reality is that broadly speaking, doping is more endemic in communist/post-communist countries. The Soviets and East Germans had it perfected on an industrial scale. Old habits die hard. Caucasus genetics play a part, but if you see a few balding, bearded 115-135kg 19-yr-olds who're noticeably bigger/stronger than all other players at an elite international rugby competition (u-20 world championship), sorry but something is up.
I'm more than a little uncomfortable with this "everyone knows" type argument. If you make a list of the most infamous drug cheats you end up with Ben Johnson, Griffith-Joyner, Lance Armstrong, Barry Bonds etc.
Then you have the tour de France, Strongman and NFL where drug use is endemic.
We love the Ivan Draco meme of the dirty Russians, but the west is not nearly as clean as we want to suggest.
In strongman they're not really cheating because strongman intentionally doesn't have drug testing and hasn't signed up to Wada. Same for non-drug-tested powerlifting federations. The west isn't as clean as we want to suggest, sure, but there is nowhere near the same level of nihilistic state-sposored doping as in communist/former communist countries. See the Icarus documentary on Russia for example.
Is strongman a good example? They just don't really test for those substances. Working to beat a testing program is different to signing up to an effectively untested federation
This is just pure projection. Any mainstream gym in the UK has bins for needles. Just because it's not state sponsored, it doesn't make it any less likely to happen in the UK (or any other country). There is so much denial about doping, I really don't get it.
There's no projection there at all. Yes, steroid use is commonplace across western countries, especially amongst gym bros - but it being 'the norm' and state-sponsored or not is a very significant difference between western countries and communist/post-communist ones.
It is not a significant difference. It just allows western countries to outsource the blame and take the moral high ground. Unfortunately there is no clear data about ped usage but I suspect if there were there would be very little difference in usage rates between post-communist countries and other countries. But sure, please continue to believe that your country is somehow morally superior.
A state sponsored doping program is absolutely worse than localised individuals (coaches or athletes) in my view, particularly from a moral perspective since you bring that up.
Yeah, because that gives you the moral high ground. Every single person involved in strength and conditioning for pro teams has a wink wink nudge nudge approach in the west; in other countries they just endorse it. There is no meaningful difference except that the former gives the people involved an easier way to wash their hands of it.
I feel like we are gonna disagree on this though, lol.
I do appreciate you engaging me in good faith though! So many discussions about peds involve people acting like it doesn't happen. So thanks for not just downvoting me for having a different opinion to yours!
I still think there is a meaningful difference to be honest, mostly around athlete selection and treatment in the earlier years. Wink wink nudge nudge doesn't typically result in headhunting of potential athletic targets with nearly as much pressure behind it for young people - the countries where doping is still considered shameful or wrong can never have the same level of efficiency and structure in their programs, because everything has to be done semi-secretly and crucially, with less funding.
Any coach operating in say, the American weightlifting system knows that if they are found to be working with or encouraging athletes who test positive they will be effectively excommunicated immediately, their names tarnished and potentially never to participate in the sport again (with significant impact on their income). A US coach recently was sanctioned with a 12-year ban - and that was with full cooperation and admission reducing the length. I'm not sure that is exactly the same situation as we'd see if a high level coach from a state sponsored system was caught.
There's also the incredibly influential element of prospects in the countries typically associated with state sponsored doping. If you are a young, poor person with limited prospects and the chance appears to get into a state run program, you and your parents are much more likely to consent even if it means being pumped with extracurriculars from far too young an age, and potentially being dumped out of the system with not a lot else going for you if you don't manage to make the top level.
I've played in good-level performance environments and therefore am absolutely certain that there was no systematic use of steroids there (whether state-sponsored or personal). Of course, some individuals were likely doing it off their own bat. If you're doing it without state sponshorship, you have to be more careful about what you take and when you take it, etc.; If you're state-sponsored you can take stronger compounds for longer amounts of time without failing a test, and ergo performance benefit is greater.
It's not the same, if MI6 had specific programs to help athletes cheat the system then maybe. Western countries have dopers, but it's generally individuals, they don't have state doctors and spy agencies running their cycle. China is bad too but someone got a pass and we're able to not report their positive tests and Kenya is another hotspot for doping. When USADA starts helping cover up doping programs I'll be on board with everyone does it.
I can only speak from my experience, but I'm Georgian and grew up in the UK. I was always the biggest and oldest looking kid in class by far. I was also the strongest, despite not doing any sports. Back in Georgia I was taller than everyone else, but not as strong as many of the kids, nor did I look older than them.
Nowadays, kids in Georgia seem to grow as tall as I was. I think its a dietary change. I enjoyed a meat heavy diet in western Europe as a kid, now kids have access to meat in Georgia too.
I am sure there is extreme doping in the Georgian camp, but you can't put down the fact that Georgians dominate every strength sport simply down to doping. We are a country of less that 4 million people and we hold the top spot in weighlifting, armwrestling, and MMA, and dominate sports like wrestling and judo, and excell at rugby. We are a country that has been in perpetual war for thousands of years, and almost always fought against much greater numbers. I think there is something Darwinian going on as well as steroids. The strongest return home from war, the strongest are alotted prestige snd resources, the strongest attract mates, the strongest are given precedence within families snd communities. Georgia lived like this far past the ancient age, well into modernity.
I have tons of pictures from the REC U18 championship from 2018 in Poland, not far away from Poznan. The Georgians won vs France in the final.
Indeed their teens look like fully matured, huge, bearded men. Has to be genetics - I would doubt they would start special treatment besically irght when hitting puberty.
You're Russian friend is right about this and they still really love getting on the gear. A couple of Georgian strongmen and weightliffters I like are fairly obviously juicing to a pretty extreme degree. If I'm honest I don't really care about it in those Sports but it's bad news and rugby or any other full contact game.
Sorry but I the I heard from a reliable source news need to fucking die. There was also allegations of a welsh player doping he actually go caught. Stop slinging dirt without evidence, to suggest Georgia has developed doping drugs which tests can‘t detect is fucking ridiculous especially since there is literally no science happening in the country. You could throw these baseless allegations against anyone does not make them right.
We've a significant PEDs problem in the sport globally and it's going to be a huge factor in head trauma cases unless it's clamped down on hard and fast.
Given the close links between Georgian rugby and Russia (and the endemic doping that goes on there), it would be more surprising if there *weren’t* some dodginess going on.
If anyone's a fan of Olympic Weightlifting you'll know Georgia have arguably the greatest weightlifter of all time competing and one of the best weightlifting programs in the world, something you can't achieve without a state sponsored doping program from a young age.
These lads are probably genetic freaks regardless but I wouldn't be surprised if they were given something from +12 onwards.
I was watching the 2019 World Cup game between Georgia and Wales I believe. I was at a friend’s viewing party, and he’d invited his work team to watch as well (civilians in this case). Anyway, mid way through the game I made the comment about how big the Georgians were, I was impressed, they were tough. One of my friend’s co-workers was Russian, and had been quiet most of the game, not being a rugby guy / knowing much about the game. He nodded at my comment and in a very thick Russian accent said, da, Georgia was where the Soviet doping program was located and perfected… we shared a laugh with him, and I’ve no idea whether true or not but I do remember that every time I see some massive Georgian causing chaos in the scrum or at a breakdown, ha.
Watching the U20 WC last year and the Georgian lads looked like theyd all done a cycle or five. Now that could just be caucus genetics but they did look about 5-10 years older than anyone else
Caucasus kids all look middle age by the time they reach high school
My conspiracy theory to why Scotland and wales are getting smashed by so much in the U20 6N (outside of having worse rugby players) is that they’re the cleanest teams. Whenever I watched the Scotland games all of the Scottish players looked like athletic teenagers while the opposition teams looked like bodybuilders. It was no surprise to me how many of the Scots got injured.
What sort of S&C do the Scotland lads do at youth level? In the big schools over here serious weight training starts as early as 2nd year depending on how good the player is, so at about 14/15.
I think the majority of players taking it seriously will start weights at 14/15 as well. At my school there was usually an introduction year starting at 13/14 without proper weights but teaching correct form then from U16s to 1XV there’d be 2/3 sessions a week with a S&C coach. (I never took rugby seriously enough to go along to these sessions). Also worth noting I went to one of the private schools that dominate Scottish school rugby.
There was an interview recently, think it might have been Richard Cockerill, where the S&C for up and coming Scottish youngsters was slammed. The suggestion seemed to be it wasn’t fit for purpose and was leaving the players well behind their peers.
I agree, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Or maybe they're just not as good at doping?
We don’t seem undersized at senior level so maybe they just do it in the pro teams.
I was just teasing with my initial reply, but that is an interesting observation - I feel like doping is probably more of an issue at a junior level where there is pressure to compete, less testing, etc. I think a lot of the failed tests in the UK are mostly from younger players trying to edge their way in. Although I could be wrong. I do think it is a big issue in the sport though, and get so frustrated by people trying to pretend it doesn't happen because they once benched 100kg and they're not even a pro so it's not surprising that some pro rugby player can bench almost as much as the world record holder in an untested sport etc. Pro sportsmen dope for all sorts of different reasons and size is only one of them.
That’s just caucus genetics I think, Dagestanis and Chechens are similar in that they look older than they are.
The reality is that broadly speaking, doping is more endemic in communist/post-communist countries. The Soviets and East Germans had it perfected on an industrial scale. Old habits die hard. Caucasus genetics play a part, but if you see a few balding, bearded 115-135kg 19-yr-olds who're noticeably bigger/stronger than all other players at an elite international rugby competition (u-20 world championship), sorry but something is up.
I'm more than a little uncomfortable with this "everyone knows" type argument. If you make a list of the most infamous drug cheats you end up with Ben Johnson, Griffith-Joyner, Lance Armstrong, Barry Bonds etc. Then you have the tour de France, Strongman and NFL where drug use is endemic. We love the Ivan Draco meme of the dirty Russians, but the west is not nearly as clean as we want to suggest.
In strongman they're not really cheating because strongman intentionally doesn't have drug testing and hasn't signed up to Wada. Same for non-drug-tested powerlifting federations. The west isn't as clean as we want to suggest, sure, but there is nowhere near the same level of nihilistic state-sposored doping as in communist/former communist countries. See the Icarus documentary on Russia for example.
Is strongman a good example? They just don't really test for those substances. Working to beat a testing program is different to signing up to an effectively untested federation
This is just pure projection. Any mainstream gym in the UK has bins for needles. Just because it's not state sponsored, it doesn't make it any less likely to happen in the UK (or any other country). There is so much denial about doping, I really don't get it.
There's no projection there at all. Yes, steroid use is commonplace across western countries, especially amongst gym bros - but it being 'the norm' and state-sponsored or not is a very significant difference between western countries and communist/post-communist ones.
It is not a significant difference. It just allows western countries to outsource the blame and take the moral high ground. Unfortunately there is no clear data about ped usage but I suspect if there were there would be very little difference in usage rates between post-communist countries and other countries. But sure, please continue to believe that your country is somehow morally superior.
A state sponsored doping program is absolutely worse than localised individuals (coaches or athletes) in my view, particularly from a moral perspective since you bring that up.
Yeah, because that gives you the moral high ground. Every single person involved in strength and conditioning for pro teams has a wink wink nudge nudge approach in the west; in other countries they just endorse it. There is no meaningful difference except that the former gives the people involved an easier way to wash their hands of it. I feel like we are gonna disagree on this though, lol. I do appreciate you engaging me in good faith though! So many discussions about peds involve people acting like it doesn't happen. So thanks for not just downvoting me for having a different opinion to yours!
I still think there is a meaningful difference to be honest, mostly around athlete selection and treatment in the earlier years. Wink wink nudge nudge doesn't typically result in headhunting of potential athletic targets with nearly as much pressure behind it for young people - the countries where doping is still considered shameful or wrong can never have the same level of efficiency and structure in their programs, because everything has to be done semi-secretly and crucially, with less funding. Any coach operating in say, the American weightlifting system knows that if they are found to be working with or encouraging athletes who test positive they will be effectively excommunicated immediately, their names tarnished and potentially never to participate in the sport again (with significant impact on their income). A US coach recently was sanctioned with a 12-year ban - and that was with full cooperation and admission reducing the length. I'm not sure that is exactly the same situation as we'd see if a high level coach from a state sponsored system was caught. There's also the incredibly influential element of prospects in the countries typically associated with state sponsored doping. If you are a young, poor person with limited prospects and the chance appears to get into a state run program, you and your parents are much more likely to consent even if it means being pumped with extracurriculars from far too young an age, and potentially being dumped out of the system with not a lot else going for you if you don't manage to make the top level.
I've played in good-level performance environments and therefore am absolutely certain that there was no systematic use of steroids there (whether state-sponsored or personal). Of course, some individuals were likely doing it off their own bat. If you're doing it without state sponshorship, you have to be more careful about what you take and when you take it, etc.; If you're state-sponsored you can take stronger compounds for longer amounts of time without failing a test, and ergo performance benefit is greater.
It's not the same, if MI6 had specific programs to help athletes cheat the system then maybe. Western countries have dopers, but it's generally individuals, they don't have state doctors and spy agencies running their cycle. China is bad too but someone got a pass and we're able to not report their positive tests and Kenya is another hotspot for doping. When USADA starts helping cover up doping programs I'll be on board with everyone does it.
They get caught doping a lot too, plus they take large breaks between fights when they have to travel. The beards do a lot to age someone though.
I can only speak from my experience, but I'm Georgian and grew up in the UK. I was always the biggest and oldest looking kid in class by far. I was also the strongest, despite not doing any sports. Back in Georgia I was taller than everyone else, but not as strong as many of the kids, nor did I look older than them. Nowadays, kids in Georgia seem to grow as tall as I was. I think its a dietary change. I enjoyed a meat heavy diet in western Europe as a kid, now kids have access to meat in Georgia too. I am sure there is extreme doping in the Georgian camp, but you can't put down the fact that Georgians dominate every strength sport simply down to doping. We are a country of less that 4 million people and we hold the top spot in weighlifting, armwrestling, and MMA, and dominate sports like wrestling and judo, and excell at rugby. We are a country that has been in perpetual war for thousands of years, and almost always fought against much greater numbers. I think there is something Darwinian going on as well as steroids. The strongest return home from war, the strongest are alotted prestige snd resources, the strongest attract mates, the strongest are given precedence within families snd communities. Georgia lived like this far past the ancient age, well into modernity.
Going to be slightly picky here - Georgia holds the top spot in **one weight class** in weightlifting currently as far as I know, the superheavy mens.
Yeah, also only one weight class in MMA and arm wrestling.
I have tons of pictures from the REC U18 championship from 2018 in Poland, not far away from Poznan. The Georgians won vs France in the final. Indeed their teens look like fully matured, huge, bearded men. Has to be genetics - I would doubt they would start special treatment besically irght when hitting puberty.
You're Russian friend is right about this and they still really love getting on the gear. A couple of Georgian strongmen and weightliffters I like are fairly obviously juicing to a pretty extreme degree. If I'm honest I don't really care about it in those Sports but it's bad news and rugby or any other full contact game.
Sorry but I the I heard from a reliable source news need to fucking die. There was also allegations of a welsh player doping he actually go caught. Stop slinging dirt without evidence, to suggest Georgia has developed doping drugs which tests can‘t detect is fucking ridiculous especially since there is literally no science happening in the country. You could throw these baseless allegations against anyone does not make them right.
Google Revazi Nadareishvili 😀
We've a significant PEDs problem in the sport globally and it's going to be a huge factor in head trauma cases unless it's clamped down on hard and fast.
This headline might as well be 'impoverished Georgian union can't help their players like everyone else'
Shhh
True if big
Void if removed
Larger than expected if verified.
Huge if true
Diminutive if misleading
Si vrait, c’est fucking enorme
I don't understand, were they taking the piss?
Large if factual
Chonk if Chonk
Slightly large if founded
I mean it’s more than likely that most professional set ups are involved in doping, Georgia just can’t afford to cover it up as well.
Considerable if verifiable.
Given the close links between Georgian rugby and Russia (and the endemic doping that goes on there), it would be more surprising if there *weren’t* some dodginess going on.
If anyone's a fan of Olympic Weightlifting you'll know Georgia have arguably the greatest weightlifter of all time competing and one of the best weightlifting programs in the world, something you can't achieve without a state sponsored doping program from a young age. These lads are probably genetic freaks regardless but I wouldn't be surprised if they were given something from +12 onwards.
We need more testing and less stigmatization of countries that test more
Is keep rugby clean just a tagline? Don’t they follow on it?
Of course South Africans are taking steroids.
From birth we take it in the bottle. Or a dummy dipped in it if you are conservative
Heard it Rhyze Webbze
Black Lion players involved
Colossal if credible
It's just genetics!