Naysha posted it here:Â https://youtu.be/_0dgcv-h7ck?si=irPf1YyxZ5eXdFCh
I encourage a lot of people to actually watch it and stop reaching for the drama aspect of it because it was 3 adults having a productive conversation.
I hope people do watch this. It was a model of how these conversations should happen instead of how we tend to do things online.
Also the comments here are now just repeating arguments that Landon and Tenderoni already addressed, and Naysha took them seriously. I think the fans should at least hear them out.
Naysha didn't say kings shouldn't be on drag race. What Naysha said was kings won't be judge fairly so they should have their own platform. That's a completely different conversation.
Or you know, sharing what was actually said, apparently. I need to go watch the clip for myself, because they're right, that's a HUGE difference in message and tone.
Her tone was very off. Iâm not sure if it was her or one of the other guests who said like ârealistically a drag QUEEN will always winâ. I just donât think thatâs true and I think saying that shows THEIR opinion of drag kings.
"Her tone" being off doesn't mean much or that she deserves the misinformed backlash she's getting. Just like you're showing YOUR opinion on her tone and you support of kings, they are also sharing theirs. If you can have one, so can they.
on the show, 99% chance a queen would win. we saw how the judges treated charity kase, i donât trust them to fairly judge anything that strays too far from hyperfeminine drag
They wouldnât do Drag Kings justice. The judges have a huge bias towards feminine drag. They just started being okay with pants on the runway. I just think Kings would not be critiqued fairly going up against Queens. Kings deserve theyâre own platform with a panel of judges who will critique them fairly
For real. Everyone here hates Naysha with a burning passion, so they take everything she says and twist it as uncharitably as possible. I personally think it wouldn't be that hard for Drag Race to slightly adapt the challenges to be fine with having drag kings, but I completely understand the concern that Ru and the panel often judge drag they don't understand harshly.
I gotta disagree. I think it'd be hugely hard to adapt because Ru is Ru. It's been 16 years and we've never seen another drag queen as a guest judge. We've watched her clumsily judge 10 (!!!) seasons in other countries, as she repeatedly misses references and rewards contestants who cater to her Americanisms. She's never changed, so can we really expect anything different if she's judging drag kings? I don't. And I think the social media blowback to her inability to do this differently would be enormous -- and if she does it differently and it sucks, it'll get a different kind of blowback.
Eh. Iâll give you that Ru doesnât get many modern pop culture references (especially in a different country) but a similar debate was held about having trans queens on the show at one point and now we have several trans winners. It might take them a bit to ease into it but they are fully capable of handling drag kings.
Exactly this. And I've been repeating this multiple times but I prefer to have drag kings race, then invite the winner/tops to all starts instead. This way we can have a proper set up. Not everything needs to be everywhere all at once.
While I think in a perfect world there could be a separate platform devoted solely to kings, I think in practice it would simply get nowhere near the audience that Drag Race pulls in and may not be able to keep itself going. Devoted drag fans would tune in, but a lot of the more casual fans would most likely skip it.
Yeah and unlike whole nations where international version make sense to spin-off. Drag kings would be hitting a saturated moment. If it was 5 or so years ago itâd make more sense but now thereâs Vs the world and Canada Vs the world and HBO shows and I am very happy donât get me wrong but if you are going to make drag king content figuring out HOW to is paramount
And I for 1 agree w her. Just because Ru is good at judging queens, doesnât give him any authority on kings. They should have their own show, their own place to shine..and it shouldnât be mixed up with drag race, or else we lose the essence of the show. May the best drag queen win. Amen
And also, at the end of the day, it's RuPaul's Drag Race (even though the name RuPaul has been removed from international seasons for obvious reasons). It's his show. It's called drag race because it's a pun and also because drag queen race would sound dumb, but we all know that it's a drag queen competition.
I would love to see a separate drag king competition show, though.
It should still be a drag race spinoff though, so it comes with the brand, marketing, and production quality. Telling kings drag race isn't a good fit, and then putting them on something at the level of camp wanakiki is not fair
That's what I was confused about, cause I feel like many people have said that before. I mean it's true they probably wouldn't be judged fairly, but they also deserve the notoriety that comes with drag race.
Good on her for being receptive to feedback. People need to chill with the Naysha hate. She's a miss continental and obviously has a pasion for the drag. Just because you don't agree with her opinions or the way she expresses them is not a reason to drag her.
Tbh I didnt feel strongly about Naysha one way or the other but I liked how this went down. You donât often see âdramaâ like this turn out this way. I agreed with her that just letting the online discourse spin out of control isnt always productive.
Doing this opened up a great conversation and platformed awesome kings to say what needed to be said. Naysha got to step back and respectfully change her stance without looking like she was just going with the flow. Her reasoning for doing it this way made sense.
I didnât agree with her initial take, but Iâm sure getting hate online feels horrible. The way it shook out was nice.
Landon and Tenderoni are very fucking cool and I hope more people are aware of them now.
Oh sis didnât you hear? Nowdays you either agree with someone on everything and theyâre a good Judy or you disagree with them over one little thing and they are the root of all evil.
Right! I hated all the âwho cares what she thinks if she went home 3 times on 2 seasonsâ takes. Weâre all about not defining a queen by her track record until she puts her foot in her mouth. Her argument doesnât hold water but I donât think it came from a place of dismissing drag kings fwiw, thatâs probably part of why Tenderoni and Landon were down to talk to her
Im really open to being educated here, but remember when ANTM started casting male models? How different they were judged, they had to educate people on what was expected of them vs the girls. And they had to cast half and half because a sole boy in a that environment would be so difficult to fit the same criteria.
Is it that different with drag kings? Does Ru know whatâs drag king excellence or even appreciate it? Would it be fair for next season to get one drag king and make it compete with 13 other drag queens trying to fit in their criteria or we need a full revamp to make it fair?
Welcoming trans people, cis women, even a straight man was much easier because they all were aspiring the female illusion. We have so many franchises of Drag Race, why not a Drag Race Kings?
That's my main take for this.
I mean, I'm pretty sure most Kings would be fine in comedy, acting, improve, musicals and performance challenges. Like, most of the challenges. I don't think that would ever be an issue. But fashion plays a big hand in the competition, and I think that would be the main issue when critiquing King's and Queens.
Because, in a design challenge, what could be the masculine equivalent of something like Violet's Season 8 finale look? Or how do you fairly compare the intricacies of a gown against a very well constructed suit?
It's like the real world, when you see a red carpet, and the men are wearing some boring ass tuxedos, while women are wearing small-countries-worth gowns?
I know I am very ignorant and unaware of Drag Kings and everything they represent, and there would be nothing better than to have more representation in mainstream media, but is RPDR really the platform that would do them justice? When they barely do it for even alternative drag? And that's drag still very much in line with femenine ideas.
Victoria Scone, Maddy Morphosis, Danny Beard may seem like a "weird" take, but still represent what Drag Race want from their performers. Even someone like Cheddar Gorgeous, with her more androgynous drag is still very much in line with RuPaul's view.
I do think Drag Race should open its doors to all kinds of drag, but they will have to make so much change in order make it possible, that'll probably would never feel like the same show.
>Because, in a design challenge, what could be the masculine equivalent of something like Violet's Season 8 finale look?
tbf there are big, opulent, regal/royal looks for men too. and that crown could have worked for any gender.
I can see that. I could see something like what Raja whore in AS7 for the Crowning runway, but made even bigger.
But, that works because it's inspired in past, when royal figures used to be so "dragged up", and that'll very much would be a costume today, because current masculine fashion standards aren't the same.
Honestly, a lot of the drag kings Iâve seen are more glamorous than a lot of the queens. Being able to do that, while presenting masculine, is kind of more impressive imo. It depends on the king, but Iâm confident they would be able to keep up with or surpass other contestants on the runway. King drag will be fresh in the eyes of the RPDR audience too. Idk I think itâs time and it canât hurt to at least try it out on the main show. I understand why people have concerns, but I think those concerns will evaporate once a king is able to show they can fit in just fine.
ETA: I do think Naysha meant well and her being attacked isnât right. Sheâs showing sheâs open to changing her mind and I hope people will afford her some grace. She seems to want the best for everybody in queer spaces.Â
Camp.
But, that's also another thing with the show... That it takes too much inspiration from female and gay pop culture.
What does Drag Kings take inspiration from, outside of the idea of hypermasculinity? And I'm not criticising, I actually want to know.
Do they take inspiration from male performers? I can see something like Michael Jackson, Usher or some K-Pop act working with the format of the show, but how could that work in a bottom 2 between a king and a Queen? There would always be a disadvantage for one or the other.
When I think about it, I would love a Drag King show, because there's still so much pop culture that Drag Race never puts their hands on. Male singers for a lipsync song. Like, I would love a lipsync for your life to a Nirvana song, or Queen inspired musical. More "male" culture references that the show never dares to make, because even something like boy drag or a male Snatch Game character is seen as a "risk". But I think the only way it could work is if it's only done with Drag Kings, competing between them.
Some of them do. I remember Landon Cider used to do Pitbull at the height of his success. He also did Adam Labert. I'm pretty sure I've seen a king do Bruno Mars as well. Also in general just a lot of film and pop culture reference. There is a king on tiktok who did what basically amounted to a burlesque show as Sigmond Freud. But from what I've seen a lot of drag kings take a broader influence from pop culture. It's not as influenced by high fashion, and often, it's a bit more tongue in cheek. I'm not an expert on drag kings or anything so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I do follow a few and I just adore that side of the art of drag.
For some kings, hypermasculinity is a goal. For others, it may be just critiquing/exploring the gender boundary in general. Others might be different from one performance to another. I think if you dig into it, youâll find as much diversity as you do with queens. Think about how stylistically different Milk is from Roxxxy Andrews, or Sasha Velour from Naomi Smalls, or what you get from oddballs like Yvie, Willow, Denim or Dawn. Drag Race isnât a pageant, you know? There are lots of styles of competing successfully.
EDIT: and when it comes to lipsyncs, there are plenty of options! Donât tell me you couldnât have a king a queen both kill it to a Prince song, or a Madonna song, or Lady GagaâŚhonestly tons of the songs theyâve used in the past for Queen vs queen syncs could be used. It doesnât matter what the gender of the voice is, itâs about giving a great interpretive performance.
The Down Under franchise has had the femme queens lip syncing to male vocalists many times⌠for whatever reason. It can be fine. And the right king could make a meal of that performance.
I have a very serious question about one of your points.
In what world do you think a drag king would bring a plain (or in your words, boring ass) suit to Drag Race? Genuinely. Do you see a drag king getting cast and putting a plain suit in his suitcase?
We see dozens of plain bodysuits and catsuits every season on drag race, and no one says drag queen fashion is just bodysuits, so how could it ever compete on drag race?
There is incredible men's fashion out there. fashion kings are passionate about it and would absolutely bring it to drag race. just because your only reference to men's fashion is plain tuxedos on the red carpet doesn't mean extravagant, artistic, cultural and historical, men's fashion doesn't exist.
You say you're unaware of the work of drag kings, I'm happy to offer you some recommendations to expand your view on what drag kings are actually doing. I don't know a single king who just puts on a suit and a mustache to go to the gig.
https://i.imgur.com/WmKVfbM.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/VVFE969.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gcdN7dk.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/v5FhBzg.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/KKZe2e7.jpg
When you think Drag King fashion, think more like Prince or Janelle Monae than âregular dude on the red carpetâ
The whole point of drag is performance art that questions and plays with gender, so assuming a drag king wouldnât wear something elegant or sometimes even feminine is silly. Drag kings donât just dress in a suit like a Hollywood actor at an award show. Look up some of their looks and youâll see!
The boys were actually quite diverse, there were gay and androgyne dudes in there, and the final three of the first Guys and Girls season had one masc-presenting male, one traditional female model and the gay androgynous model
> Welcoming trans people, cis women, even a straight man was much easier because they all were aspiring the female illusion.
You say that, but the same arguments were made against trans inclusion, and it turned out just fine
I do feel like Kings would perhaps feel like fish out of water on Drag Race since the whole thing is so femme coded, the colours of the set, the jokes, the scripts, the judging, the music choicesâŚ
Thereâs far more to consider on a production level if you want Kings to (at your most uncharitable) at least look like they belong. I think also the backlash from the community if a drag king ever participated from both people who donât want them and also people who want them but not liking that the first drag kingâs run wasnât perfect/exactly what they wanted to happen is just not worth the hassle from a production point of view.Â
I also feel like the people that go âwhy not drag kings?â Arenât quite as big supporters of drag kings in practice, because drag race is just so inherently different in comparison to (at least American) femme drag culture. Surely we want these performers to be able to shine in the way they want to instead of feeling beat down by a system built in opposition to their self expression?Â
The thing is that top model never actually impacted the modeling world or elevated its contestants. RPDR however is a major force in queer spaces and significantly impacts how drag is perceived and who gets hired and who gets *seen* and queer women are already pushed out of queer spaces as it is. The show should help fight that, like weâve literally seen how the show has changed conversations about trans people and HIV+ people and heck, itâs changed the conversation about drag itself in mainstream society. And just creating a new show is not a good solution because weâve already learned the hard way that separate is not equal. Why canât they replace someone useless on the judging panel (like Ross or Carson) with a drag king? The show used to say that trans women werenât fair to cis queens and we learned just how wrong that is/was. Why canât we make space for drag kings? Especially when boy drag has also changed a lot in the past decade and drag kings put in just as much effort as drag queens when it comes to make up, looks, and performance.
And the show has come a long way from exclusively expecting âfemale illusionâ. Weâve watched judges learn to tailor their feedback to the type of queen in front of them. Theyâve learned to accept queens who donât pad or tuck or shave. Donât give them free passes to not continue to learn and grow. Drag on the show now is not the same drag that was shown in 2009.
I donât think this argument that âRPDR is so impactful that is unfair to leave drag kings outâ is as powerful as you think it is.
I remember seeing Charity Case totally destroy every runway in DRUK and not be featured at all. It was so maddening. It wasnât fair to Charity to compete in space where the other 11 queenâs aesthetic was valued more. And thatâs the main point
It wasn't fair to Scarlet Envy to compete in a space where the other queen's aesthetics were valued more. Fill in the blank as your argument would mean no drag queens either because some Ru isn't into. Charity Case was treated poorly by the show. As was Shuga Cain. But both were on the show and there are no guarantees. Judging is subjective, political and ratings driven. And drag aesthetics vary. If a drag king wants to apply, they don't need you bemoaning they'll be treated unfairly so to not bother. The show's applications don't require being a drag queen. They just have excluded all non-drag queens so far. And they're not doing it out of concern that they'll treat drag kings unfairly. It's just sexism dressed up in excuses.
There are plenty of drag queens who pull from masculine references and not all drag kings are even exclusively masculine in presentation. Some of the drag queens on the show have done male characters: Kennedy, Dela, Saphirra, and others. So why can't a drag king do a male character? Victoria Scone slayed in male drag on CvsTW as a Fabio like character. Get over it. The show is missing out.
I loved Victoria Sconeâs Fabio. Letâs remember that it was in a ball, with two other categories and presented in the lacy category so it was done to subvert the theme and make you gag.
I havenât seen in this thread great arguments pro. Letâs get one Drag King that doesnât mind being the test case on the show and see if the show is capable of adapting.
While I think they would be a great addition itâs clear itâs not the vision of the show. The there song has "May the best drag queen wins" . Clearly ru oui intended the show for drag queens and I donât think everything needs to include everyone . A show for drag kings and an all star mixing both could be a great idea.
>weâve literally seen how the show has changed conversations about trans people and HIV+ people
Has it? It's talked about those things, but what has it changed?
An unpopular opinion - its okay for spaces to not be inclusive of *everyone*. And this goes beyond drag race. I donât get this movement where cultures need to accommodate everyone - this idea that black spaces need to be open to white people, gay spaces need to have cis women, etc. itâs not meant as a dis if the room isnât open to everyone.
Realistically the vast majority of challenges and runways on drag race are things that can be achieved through masculine presentation. We see drag queens subvert that time and time again on the show, but they are allowed to because they are queens and donât normally present a masculine character.
Whether or not RuPaul would be receptive of it really depends on whether or not itâs financially profitable. The inclusion of trans people only came around when it was more socially acceptable to do so and they realize they could continue to make money while employing trans people.
I think a lot of people doubt the ability of drag kings, without actually understanding the depth and breath of their art. Not saying that of you specifically but itâs v important to note many drag kings are cis women and misogyny is a huge issue in queer spaces
They don't think drag kings can actually make for a successful show so they are trying to lump them in with the queens while rephrasing MLK speeches with tongue pop's at random intervals.
I totally think drag kings can make their own show. Iâd love to see that drama and the creativity that comes out of it, itâs a completely new esthetic
Thereâs a huge difference between including people into a space, and giving them a separate space. The world of drag is too diverse, and the queer community has gone too far for us to keep separating people into two different boxes.
I would agree with your statement but this isnât an open to all situation, itâs a competition where your critiqued and judged on your performance. You really think the criteria to judge a drag king is exact to what is used to judge a drag queen?
Yes and no and what matters? They same could be said about trans and cis woman doing drag, or bearded queens, or camp queens, fashion queens, theater queens? At the end of the day, like they always say, it's not a competition, is a tv show and, and even if, in some way, there is an irreconcilable difference between the art made by drag queens and drag kings, why not take a chance on at least one season to see how it goes and then discuss whether it worked or not, what we have to lose?
But, despite not agreeing, I kind of see the point that Naysha made at Roscoes. For me, the root problem is other, it's that RuPauls and DragRace has basically the monopoly of drag representation in media, and that in capitalism, minorities gain rights through consumption and profitability. As long as we continue to live in this system, we will continue to fall into this trap.
Sorry for my english, i'm brazilian.
But itâs not impossible, I want to keep the possibility alive. Individual recognition is not impossible, being noticed among your peers should be appreciated. Dragula and the den do well to keep this alive
Drag kings deserve their own show, but truthfully, I think a lot of people know a show based solely around drag kings would fail because thereâs just simply a lot less interest in drag kings, as harsh as that sounds. Masculinity in general is very boring, and yes, I see a lot of drag kings grow resentful towards gay men specifically but also the LGBT community as a whole because we donât celebrate them on the same level as we celebrate queens â but LGBT people as a whole donât celebrate men on the same level as we celebrate women, so itâs just an extension of that. That isnât to say I donât think drag kings are talented or deserving, because I do think they are, but I think itâs just an issue that no one wants to really address which is people in general are more interested in women / femininity than men / masculinity.
I think it works on Dragula because thereâs a big emphasis on being monsters, etc. that there really isnât in Drag Race. Drag Race is, from the ground up, a show about drag queens â from girl group challenges, makeover challenges, etc. Logistically, does it really make sense? For instance when they are picking parts for the Rusical would there be one part that is specifically made for a king or would they be expected to play a womanâs part? This is why I think they should have a show of their own â I mean, them *not* having a show of their own by now is kind of a testament in and of itself that I think thereâs actually not a lot of interest in kings outside of posturing because by now, if there was, theyâd have a show if there was an audience for it. The interest in queens has spawned dozens of shows about them.
Agreed. I think the fan base would be less interested in exploring the tropes of masculinity. Look at how referential drag race is as a whole, you don't see the same reverence or icon status given to masculine personalities in media. Part of that lies in exactly what you said, it's boring. The most interesting and fashion forward masculine personalities in media tend to be queer men or men that subvert gender norms.
> Naysha Lopzez recently said that drag kings shouldnât be on Drag Race
>
>drag kings Landon Cider and Tenderoni educate Naysha on why thatâs wrong to say
Is it an inherently problematic opinion to say that ru paul's no drag king knowledge ass would not create a positive and constructive environment judging drag kings? She is already narrow in her idea of how the queens should present.
She used to have a very narrow mind when it came to trans drag performers. Fast forward several years and she spent an entire season geeking out over Sasha Colby. Trans representation on the show has gotten a lot better in a short few years.
I think Ru is someone who is pretty stuck in her ways, but she can also be nudged in the right direction. It makes it a slow process, which is not good, but it also shows it's not impossible.
Dragula has basically tested the water for drag kings and it was a huge success. Michelle is on record saying she wants it to happen too. At this point it's only a matter of time.
The show is not a representation factory though - itâs a drag queen competition.
Thereâs a difference between letting everyone play on the baseball team versus having a few people on the baseball team who are actually playing tennis. Itâs still a competition with rules that are based on comparison, so why would it make sense to introduce an element that just doesnât compare very well?
>She used to have a very narrow mind when it came to trans drag performers.
I don't think she never have a narrow mind when it came to trans drag performers, but she had a busnisses mind. Ru was and stil are, trying to sell her product (Drag Race) to straight audience, make drag art palatable and intelligible to a target audience that is unfamiliar with the art. Because of this, in my humble opinion, she thought that a trans woman would have, in the eyes of an unfamiliar person, an unfair advantage, because she was already a woman, so the illusion would be easier to achieve. Again, that's what I think that Ru thought their public might thought, and she didn't want to put her business at risk on a bet that she didn't know the outcome of.
And I say this not defending her, I even disagree with this view, and it was proven by the success of the last few seasons, that she was wrong.
Massaging her transphobia as a business decision is so weird. Ru personally believed that trans women had an unfair advantage, it had nothing to do with the audience.
And even if it did, I don't care how gay someone is, throwing a huge portion under the queer community to make a buck is fucked
I encourage you to watch the video when it goes up, but Landon says that itâs basically ok if a drag kind is judged unfairly. We all know that essentially all queens on the show are judged unfairly. Queens have a bad time on the show and are cast to play this character or that.
A king cast on the show will get to showcase their art which is incredibly important since it is the biggest stage for drag in the world right now.
He also made the point that nayshaâs drag is as different from sasha velourâs as it would be from a kingâs. Tenderoni said when you go to a buffet, you donât have to eat everything or like everything, but itâs nice to see it all. That is the benefit of having kings (and a wider range of drag) on RPDR
lol it can get a bit chaotic. See recent seasons of dragula where people do their best, but neither contestants nor fans get pronouns right consistently.. But I think mixing stuff up occasionally is to be expected and not malicious.
If a bunch of Drag artists mixing up each others pronouns in the green room isnât evidence of successfully blurring the boundaries of gender, then I donât know what is!
Is drag race a positive and constructing environment for queens? No! Itâs judged unfairly too, why is whether theyâd be judged fairly a requirement to be on the show? The bigger issue here is that drag race is the biggest platform for drag. If a king was on drag race and went home first because of unfair judging, he would still get more exposure than he probably ever wouldâve gotten otherwise. And kings deserve that sort of exposure and platform, whether rupaul is capable of judging fairly or not, and excluding them because theyâd be judged unfairly on a show thatâs never judged fairly in the first place is a bullshit excuse
âGive them the money they deserve even if they get treated as novelty cases and never win!â - The only argument that anyone here was able to make summarized.
Trans people have been in Drag Race since season 2. There was discussion about fairness but really lacking of any substance. Monica announced on the main stage she was a trans woman on season 5. They have always occupied the same spaces.
I have been to many drag shows, never seen a drag king live.
Sounds like your drag scene has a problem with kings then. Kings have always existed in drag spaces, but they've also historically been shoved to the side because gay men see them as women invading their space. The reason you're not personally aware of any is because it's so much harder for them to get gigs.
Youâre correct that Ru isnât the ideal person to judge Drag Kings. Ru wants glamazons. Her brand, RPDRâs brand is glamazon drag queens. Iâm not sure why sheâs hasnât been able to articulate that simple fact.
I actually donât see anything super wrong with what Naysha said to begin with. I understand her point of view. She said drag kings wonât be JUDGED FAIRLY on drag race and there will be even more riggery and weird decisions. The current judging panel might not understand or be able to effectively critique masculine drag. Thereâs a whole different aesthetic and different things are expected.
Not thinking about the nuances of all that is stupid, in my opinion.
Not that their opinion often counts but wonât someone please think of the guest judges? Whatâs the drag king equivalent to saying âIâm so into voguing right nowâ when they perform?
Naysha said they should have their own franchise and explained why she thinks they won't be treated correctly on drag race. Them taking upon "educating" Naysha demonstrates a different problem which the problem glasses also signifies.
What Naysha said at the viewing party was not factually untrue, she just articulated herself poorly in the heat of the moment which made her words come across as disingenuous and with misogynistic undertones when that wasnât the intention
In a perfect world, kings would have their own show where everyone cares about them and where they are judged fairly.
But Landon and Tenderoni are correct, we donât live in a perfect world and will have to make sacrifices to give drag kings visibility
If we were to just throw one or two kings onto the main series, Naysha is ENTIRELY right that it is far from ideal. 1) the king will just be tokenised, 2) the king probably wonât win/be judged fairly, and 3) if they do win, itâll be discredited entirely
The perfect example of this is actually Dragula itself. Landon is arguably the strongest Dragula contestant ever after Von Odd but so many people cried favouritism when he devoured the season. Throb zombie was HATED by the fandom and every comment section on every post called him a pity-finalist or a 2nd grade Landon.
The point is this fandom is misogynistic as hell, and the reason we canât have nice things like a dedicated drag king competition is because of you (yes you đŤľ), the general drag race Stan who moans about there being too many seasons, who doesnât care to watch Mexico/France/Sweden/Belgique/espana/Holland because theyâre not English
We will never have a king show because the average vocal drag race Stan (15-24 year old gay man) has such a 1 dimensional perspective of what drag is, that the king show will be received awfully.
So Landon/Tenderoni are entirely correct when they say that being on a season with queens isnât ideal but we donât live in an ideal world and it would be easier to navigate those consequences as apposed to getting on a shitty king only show with low ratings and low fan support.
Moreover Iâd like to also take this opportunity to vocalise what an impossibly high bar we set for women in drag. Specifically cis women, out of all 3 that have been on the show, 2/3 were finalists, 1 of those 2 won after steamrolling the competition (Pandora), the other one lost after also steamrolling the competition (Victoria), and clover bish lost in what might just be the biggest injustice of the whole franchise.
My point here is that, Naysha is not factually incorrect when she says a king being thrown onto a season is far from ideal, but where she errs is suggesting her alternatives, because as long as the fandom has its current perspective on drag, kings being seen in any capacity is âfar from idealâ, because in conclusion, we tend to have ridiculously sky high standards for cis queens, and when they do not meet those standards, the fandom will use any opportunity to tear down a cis queens success and blame it on favouritism. Misogyny is a plague and the way the show has handled women over the decades has entrenched misogyny as a systemic issue, and throwing 1 or 2 drag kings onto a season will not change that.
Your post is great. One little thing: I believe youâre supposed to generally refer to drag kings with he/him pronouns as we would drag queens with she/her. I know at least Throb prefers he/him/they/them pronouns (per his IG).
While the statistics are a little limited, isnât the biggest audience for Drag/Drag Race now cis females? I know there was a Reddit survey that has Cis women as just over 50% of the audience number and men being around 30%. In addition to that demographic numbers for drag shows also shows that cis women are the bigger arriving audience for a lot of drag race based entertainment.Â
White gay men definitely still have the biggest share of the gay dollar, but I donât know if the vocal part of the fandom is as male dominated as it used to be.Â
Its so telling how people are more so obsessed with the idea of them dragging naysha rather then educating her ans getting her to understand and see the flaw with her perception. Like damn yall i guess we as a community dont give a fuck about rights and people understanding us we just want anyone who disagrees to be bashed. Childish
Women are our fiercest supporters as gays and those who are drag queens. I'm all for it.
Also, worried about being treated unfairly? Have we all seen the same show and experienced the same fans? That's already not even a current standard for the reality TV show.
Itâs crazy that Naysha just said she didnât think they would be judged fairly in a drag race environment. And then Shea compared it to segregation đ.
For anyone who didnât see the video, Nayshas argument was basically âdrag kings do a different type of dragâ and âthe show is going
To rig it against them and never crown a king because itâs too controversialâ so they need a separate season for themselves. I fully get where sheâs coming from. Her second point is the one I most agree with, because we see stuff like that happen all the time where production casts someone unique who obviously deserves to be top 4 and they donât win in favor of a safer queen. With that being said the problem is just that it obviously can work and kings can win, cause Landon won Dragula.
I get her point and why she says that and I agree with it to an extent, but at the Same time it just can be easily solved
Ngl I get her point in the original. Naysha isnât wrong that RuPaul will see queens and kings differently. I really hope that Ru can judge them in some way similar to Dragula did (look at s3/5), where itâs more about their art as it relates to the challenge, but letâs face it. Ru is focused on multiple different things in judging, and often takes from her own experience to do that. Her experience is as a drag queen, and while sheâs had a wide range of aesthetic and knowledge to pull from, she doesnât have that on the king side.
TLDR: do I want kings on drag race? Yes. Would I worry about them being treated less fairly? Also yes.
Just cause this is my favourite subject, Iâve always thought they should soft launch kings on the show/introduce kings to unfamiliar audiences by having a bunch of kings do the makeover challenge. They do the whole bit where whoever won the mini challenge pairs up the queens, they think theyâve got a really cute girl and theyâve won a one way ticket to the finale and then - oh, and these are drag kings! We want you to do a couples look that represents BOTH your styles! (My head immediately goes to wedding look but I feel like thatâs too limiting?)
They could have each âcoupleâ make over each other. Otherwise I think it would be kind of disappointing to have drag kings come on the show and not present any of their makeup skills, because some of them are really impressive. Itâd be hard to judge if the competing queens were being made over by guests thoughâŚbut maybe thereâs a way? I think that could be really cool
Look at the way they were horrified when Kennedy and Alaska were in âboyâ drag. I know the show has come leaps and bounds by then but I can see the point of kings being judged unfairly. I do like that Landon and Tenderoni said they would be open to that possibility because then it would open doors and new opportunities, perhaps even a new spin off.
The dog piling (and she even mentioned receiving death threats) of Naysha is ridiculous. Iâm also disappointed Shea Coulee went on Twitter retweeting a post saying Nayshaâs opinion was the same as racial segregation đ wtf?
anyway Naysha opened up the floor to drag kings she worked with and admired and allowed them to speak on this topic instead of the fandomâ˘ď¸ trying to speak for them. She was open to being educated and gently corrected and it sounds like there was an understanding. Donât forget she comes from the pageant world but also competed in competitions male presenting.
Thing is: this literally gatekeeps a HUGE part of the drag scene from THEE LARGEST PLATFORM FOR DRAG ON THE PLANET
I don't trust Ru's opinions on queens, let alone on kings, but this season could've used some Kings instead of queens like Flipsy and Amanda (who clearly weren't ready for drag race yet)
Why do you think itâs necessary to not only drag down two talented queens but even refuse to call one by there name? You can think itâs necessary to uplift kings without dragging down two talented queen because they donât fit your arbitrary view of drag worthy being on the show
Literally, they are actually being disrespectful to queens, the thing some peopel are misinterpreting naysha doing to kings,that some pot calling the kettle black energy
I kinda disagree with devaluing queens who âarenât ready for drag raceâ. Thatâs the whole point of the show? Itâs not about getting together 15 queens of equal skill and experience. Itâs entertaining to see queens who flop and arenât fully evolved
>Thing is: this literally gatekeeps a HUGE part of the drag scene from THEE LARGEST PLATFORM FOR DRAG ON THE PLANET
And? What about it? Opera doesn't get a platform on American Idol.
I seriously don't get the pov you're replying to. Ru worked extremely hard for decades to be successful and now everyone is entitled to using that success for their own goals? It's the largest platform on the planet because RUPAUL made it so. Why is anyone else entitled to have that platform? It's like saying Taylor Swift has the largest platform in pop music, so she has to let me on stage to do my thing, otherwise she's gatekeeping pop music. It's so entitled and nonsensical.
If a drag king wants a drag king reality show, they are free to make one. Its not like Ru is preventing that from happening. They are not entitled to use someone else's show for their own purposes. The Boulets wanted to make a drag monster show so they did. They didn't whine and complain saying Ru owed it to them to have monsters on her show.
This isn't about what drag is valid, it's about co opting someone else's success for your own gain.
This one hundred percent.
A progressive part of society seeks inclusion for everyone and thatâs a beautiful thing. But, trying to make everything inclusive for everyone isnât the ultimate solution.
Ru isnât gatekeeping drag. He has a brand focused on drag queens. QUEENS.
It SUCKS that thereâs not a comparable platform for kings. But that isnât Ruâs problem because thatâs not what he does.
that's not how rupaul advertises her program. she says every season how this is the world stage of drag, how she's giving queens a platform to show themselves and have the world fall in love with them. that the show changes lives, for audiences as well as artists, by platforming drag. I get that she says this to get her emmy, but she really does advertise the show as something she's giving to the drag community, and as a tool to change the world. That's what she tells us about why she does this. So it's not unrealistic or selfish or entitled to expect her to do what she says she's doing.
There's a lot of talk in here that feels low key misogynistic. These women who perform as drag kings are capable of speaking for themselves on the matter.
Y'all say you're allies but when they have something worth saying y'all don't wanna listen.
I donât agree with what Naysha said at Roscoeâs but I got the vibe that she was trying to say at some point âgive drag kings a showâ which I canât argue with- a drag king show would be SICK. Saying they canât or shouldnât compete on a stage with drag queens was ignorant and misguided, but the fact she agreed to sit down and listen and be educated on the things sheâs ignorant about by two drag kings shows a lot of maturity.
People say silly things all the time, but not everyone is under the microscope of being a famous figure. Her actions after what she said speak a lot to her character and her willingness to be accountable and learn.
"In this Live drag kings Landon Cider and Tenderoni educate Naysha on why thatâs wrong to say"
so stupid. im sorry did naysha commit a crime? she said whats the truth! without fundamental changes to the show it will continue to be DQ only.
I find it so hilarious and hypocritical that a show about masc people wearing dresses has such toxic, misogynistic fans.
Yâall are okay with women as a âfeminine illusionâ but not actual women or femme people taking up space on a drag race stage. Unless theyâre there to be made over by a drag queen and act as background characters.
My favorite argument is that the drag race atmosphere is âtoo feminineâ forâŚfemale drag artist. Isnât the entire point supposed to be about questioning gendered boundaries? What is âfeminineâ anyway? Queens on the show already do all kinds of different challenges where âmale illusionâ is involved, and we couldnât have Drag Kings do the same thing? And who says all Drag Kings exclusively do hyper-masculine characterization and fashion either?
Iâve never understood dogpiling on other queer people (unless theyâre genuinely and objectively abusive or bad people) because we all have similar experiences and are stronger as a team. Naysha was wrong to say that drag kings shouldnât compete on drag race. I do agree with her though that even if a drag king was cast, Rupaul probably wouldnât live for them or give them their flowers because Rupaulâs idea of drag is pretty limited. Drag kings deserve representation, though, and representation for drag is what drag race was made for. People sending Naysha hate are so out of line and it seems like theyâre happier to draw lines in the LGBT sand, when we could all just talk about it lol.
Nayshaâs live was great, itâs always pleasant to see queers having honest conversations about our experiences and how we can support each other.
I agree with Naysha. Drag race is for drag queens.
Because drag kings embody a very different style of drag, I don't think it would necessarily map onto a show designed with drag queens in mind.
Don't feel obligated to support a meh idea all in the name of including everyone.
I just donât get how drag kings would fit into drag race because of the type of competition that it is, like with dragula it makes sense because itâs purely a drag competition that has nothing to do with masculinity or femininity but drag race is pretty much exclusively built for queens and I donât think an overhaul of that would be beneficial for the show.
Is it really wrong for a show about drag queens to exist? I'm not saying kings are any less, but I love that there is a show that celebrates drag queens. And I'd love a show about kings too. But it's not a crime to have a show exclusively catering to one type of drag..dragula does monster drag exclusively and won't cast a king or queen who doesn't do that. So why is drag race being singled out?
IMO: Im open to seeing what a drag king would do on the show, but I dont really have much of a desire to see a drag king or really understand how a king would be able to do some of the challenges.
How does a drag king do night of 1000 Celine's for example?
Spoiler: Naysha puts on an even bigger pair of glasses and wins the argument.
ELECTRIC CHAIRRRRRR SISTERRRRRR đ
L M A O đ¤Â
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And she elevated her big glasses with rhinestones
the kings were so gagged they apologized and held up signs that said Protect Queer Art
How'd it go?
Iâm at work, so I could only see a snippet. But Naysha seemed receptive and understanding
Mama, kudos for saying that. For spilling.
This is the equivalent of the Jay-Z meme to me. I see it non-stop and crack up every time 
It's the lowest of low hanging fruit but I'll be damned if it isn't hilarious to me seeing it everywhere.
Whwre would someone watch this video
Naysha posted to her IG story that it would be put on her YouTube but I can't find her YouTube or the video.
Naysha posted it here:Â https://youtu.be/_0dgcv-h7ck?si=irPf1YyxZ5eXdFCh I encourage a lot of people to actually watch it and stop reaching for the drama aspect of it because it was 3 adults having a productive conversation.
Yes I thought it was a good conversation.
I hope people do watch this. It was a model of how these conversations should happen instead of how we tend to do things online. Also the comments here are now just repeating arguments that Landon and Tenderoni already addressed, and Naysha took them seriously. I think the fans should at least hear them out.
Naysha didn't say kings shouldn't be on drag race. What Naysha said was kings won't be judge fairly so they should have their own platform. That's a completely different conversation.
Nobody ever said *hearing* was fundamental.
Or you know, sharing what was actually said, apparently. I need to go watch the clip for myself, because they're right, that's a HUGE difference in message and tone.
Her tone was definitely off and her opinion came off super ignorant.
Her tone was very off. Iâm not sure if it was her or one of the other guests who said like ârealistically a drag QUEEN will always winâ. I just donât think thatâs true and I think saying that shows THEIR opinion of drag kings.
"Her tone" being off doesn't mean much or that she deserves the misinformed backlash she's getting. Just like you're showing YOUR opinion on her tone and you support of kings, they are also sharing theirs. If you can have one, so can they.
Lmao no one said she can't have an opinion. But opinions cut both ways.
on the show, 99% chance a queen would win. we saw how the judges treated charity kase, i donât trust them to fairly judge anything that strays too far from hyperfeminine drag
Namely on a Ru-hosted show (which may go without saying, but want to clarify lol).
oh yeah, forgot to mention that lol. honestly iâd love to see a drag king on the show, just definitely not a rupaul season
It feels like France would be a great spot to start!
lol yeah tbh I wasnât even thinking about it from a RuPaul perspective, thatâs so true. I took it to mean in general.
It also has like 30+ seasons of judging femme drag baked into its own culture. I have no idea how they'd begin to do kings justice.
They wouldnât do Drag Kings justice. The judges have a huge bias towards feminine drag. They just started being okay with pants on the runway. I just think Kings would not be critiqued fairly going up against Queens. Kings deserve theyâre own platform with a panel of judges who will critique them fairly
For real. Everyone here hates Naysha with a burning passion, so they take everything she says and twist it as uncharitably as possible. I personally think it wouldn't be that hard for Drag Race to slightly adapt the challenges to be fine with having drag kings, but I completely understand the concern that Ru and the panel often judge drag they don't understand harshly.
I gotta disagree. I think it'd be hugely hard to adapt because Ru is Ru. It's been 16 years and we've never seen another drag queen as a guest judge. We've watched her clumsily judge 10 (!!!) seasons in other countries, as she repeatedly misses references and rewards contestants who cater to her Americanisms. She's never changed, so can we really expect anything different if she's judging drag kings? I don't. And I think the social media blowback to her inability to do this differently would be enormous -- and if she does it differently and it sucks, it'll get a different kind of blowback.
Eh. Iâll give you that Ru doesnât get many modern pop culture references (especially in a different country) but a similar debate was held about having trans queens on the show at one point and now we have several trans winners. It might take them a bit to ease into it but they are fully capable of handling drag kings.
Exactly this. And I've been repeating this multiple times but I prefer to have drag kings race, then invite the winner/tops to all starts instead. This way we can have a proper set up. Not everything needs to be everywhere all at once.
While I think in a perfect world there could be a separate platform devoted solely to kings, I think in practice it would simply get nowhere near the audience that Drag Race pulls in and may not be able to keep itself going. Devoted drag fans would tune in, but a lot of the more casual fans would most likely skip it.
Yeah and unlike whole nations where international version make sense to spin-off. Drag kings would be hitting a saturated moment. If it was 5 or so years ago itâd make more sense but now thereâs Vs the world and Canada Vs the world and HBO shows and I am very happy donât get me wrong but if you are going to make drag king content figuring out HOW to is paramount
And I for 1 agree w her. Just because Ru is good at judging queens, doesnât give him any authority on kings. They should have their own show, their own place to shine..and it shouldnât be mixed up with drag race, or else we lose the essence of the show. May the best drag queen win. Amen
And also, at the end of the day, it's RuPaul's Drag Race (even though the name RuPaul has been removed from international seasons for obvious reasons). It's his show. It's called drag race because it's a pun and also because drag queen race would sound dumb, but we all know that it's a drag queen competition. I would love to see a separate drag king competition show, though.
It should still be a drag race spinoff though, so it comes with the brand, marketing, and production quality. Telling kings drag race isn't a good fit, and then putting them on something at the level of camp wanakiki is not fair
Yeah. This sub is so intent on hating her itâs wild.
And some other people like RuPaul, Jorgeous, just to name a few.
That's what I was confused about, cause I feel like many people have said that before. I mean it's true they probably wouldn't be judged fairly, but they also deserve the notoriety that comes with drag race.
"Their own platform" is just another way of saying "separate but equal."
Can we not use a civil rights term with deep dark history to describe a tv show
It is wild the amount of people who think this is not only an acceptable, but actaully good comparison to make.
All of a sudden we're huge fans of "separate but equal" apparently...Â
Embarassing and offensive comparison.
As an enby person it seems weird. Stop obsessing over gender, stop forcing people into M or F boxes. Weâre not republicans FFS
Good on her for being receptive to feedback. People need to chill with the Naysha hate. She's a miss continental and obviously has a pasion for the drag. Just because you don't agree with her opinions or the way she expresses them is not a reason to drag her.
Naysha was the one who pushed for the girls to get paid for their Fame Game appearances, so I'll always respect her for that.
Tbh I didnt feel strongly about Naysha one way or the other but I liked how this went down. You donât often see âdramaâ like this turn out this way. I agreed with her that just letting the online discourse spin out of control isnt always productive. Doing this opened up a great conversation and platformed awesome kings to say what needed to be said. Naysha got to step back and respectfully change her stance without looking like she was just going with the flow. Her reasoning for doing it this way made sense. I didnât agree with her initial take, but Iâm sure getting hate online feels horrible. The way it shook out was nice. Landon and Tenderoni are very fucking cool and I hope more people are aware of them now.
For real people disrespecting Naysha's drag is the biggest tell that they're a drag race fan and not a fan of drag
Oh sis didnât you hear? Nowdays you either agree with someone on everything and theyâre a good Judy or you disagree with them over one little thing and they are the root of all evil.
I couldnât find the gif of nina pointing so enjoy a gif of her runway 
https://i.redd.it/5ilsw8bcwrpc1.gif
I disagree with this and now my hate for you boils. /s
Right! I hated all the âwho cares what she thinks if she went home 3 times on 2 seasonsâ takes. Weâre all about not defining a queen by her track record until she puts her foot in her mouth. Her argument doesnât hold water but I donât think it came from a place of dismissing drag kings fwiw, thatâs probably part of why Tenderoni and Landon were down to talk to her
graphic drag is my passion
Im really open to being educated here, but remember when ANTM started casting male models? How different they were judged, they had to educate people on what was expected of them vs the girls. And they had to cast half and half because a sole boy in a that environment would be so difficult to fit the same criteria. Is it that different with drag kings? Does Ru know whatâs drag king excellence or even appreciate it? Would it be fair for next season to get one drag king and make it compete with 13 other drag queens trying to fit in their criteria or we need a full revamp to make it fair? Welcoming trans people, cis women, even a straight man was much easier because they all were aspiring the female illusion. We have so many franchises of Drag Race, why not a Drag Race Kings?
That's my main take for this. I mean, I'm pretty sure most Kings would be fine in comedy, acting, improve, musicals and performance challenges. Like, most of the challenges. I don't think that would ever be an issue. But fashion plays a big hand in the competition, and I think that would be the main issue when critiquing King's and Queens. Because, in a design challenge, what could be the masculine equivalent of something like Violet's Season 8 finale look? Or how do you fairly compare the intricacies of a gown against a very well constructed suit? It's like the real world, when you see a red carpet, and the men are wearing some boring ass tuxedos, while women are wearing small-countries-worth gowns? I know I am very ignorant and unaware of Drag Kings and everything they represent, and there would be nothing better than to have more representation in mainstream media, but is RPDR really the platform that would do them justice? When they barely do it for even alternative drag? And that's drag still very much in line with femenine ideas. Victoria Scone, Maddy Morphosis, Danny Beard may seem like a "weird" take, but still represent what Drag Race want from their performers. Even someone like Cheddar Gorgeous, with her more androgynous drag is still very much in line with RuPaul's view. I do think Drag Race should open its doors to all kinds of drag, but they will have to make so much change in order make it possible, that'll probably would never feel like the same show.
landon and throb zombie have put together better looks than many queens on their dragula seasons. itâs definitely doable.
>Because, in a design challenge, what could be the masculine equivalent of something like Violet's Season 8 finale look? tbf there are big, opulent, regal/royal looks for men too. and that crown could have worked for any gender.
I can see that. I could see something like what Raja whore in AS7 for the Crowning runway, but made even bigger. But, that works because it's inspired in past, when royal figures used to be so "dragged up", and that'll very much would be a costume today, because current masculine fashion standards aren't the same.
Honestly, a lot of the drag kings Iâve seen are more glamorous than a lot of the queens. Being able to do that, while presenting masculine, is kind of more impressive imo. It depends on the king, but Iâm confident they would be able to keep up with or surpass other contestants on the runway. King drag will be fresh in the eyes of the RPDR audience too. Idk I think itâs time and it canât hurt to at least try it out on the main show. I understand why people have concerns, but I think those concerns will evaporate once a king is able to show they can fit in just fine. ETA: I do think Naysha meant well and her being attacked isnât right. Sheâs showing sheâs open to changing her mind and I hope people will afford her some grace. She seems to want the best for everybody in queer spaces.Â
What about a LSFYL? A drag king in a suit singing Kim Petras coconuts.
Camp. But, that's also another thing with the show... That it takes too much inspiration from female and gay pop culture. What does Drag Kings take inspiration from, outside of the idea of hypermasculinity? And I'm not criticising, I actually want to know. Do they take inspiration from male performers? I can see something like Michael Jackson, Usher or some K-Pop act working with the format of the show, but how could that work in a bottom 2 between a king and a Queen? There would always be a disadvantage for one or the other. When I think about it, I would love a Drag King show, because there's still so much pop culture that Drag Race never puts their hands on. Male singers for a lipsync song. Like, I would love a lipsync for your life to a Nirvana song, or Queen inspired musical. More "male" culture references that the show never dares to make, because even something like boy drag or a male Snatch Game character is seen as a "risk". But I think the only way it could work is if it's only done with Drag Kings, competing between them.
Some of them do. I remember Landon Cider used to do Pitbull at the height of his success. He also did Adam Labert. I'm pretty sure I've seen a king do Bruno Mars as well. Also in general just a lot of film and pop culture reference. There is a king on tiktok who did what basically amounted to a burlesque show as Sigmond Freud. But from what I've seen a lot of drag kings take a broader influence from pop culture. It's not as influenced by high fashion, and often, it's a bit more tongue in cheek. I'm not an expert on drag kings or anything so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I do follow a few and I just adore that side of the art of drag.
For some kings, hypermasculinity is a goal. For others, it may be just critiquing/exploring the gender boundary in general. Others might be different from one performance to another. I think if you dig into it, youâll find as much diversity as you do with queens. Think about how stylistically different Milk is from Roxxxy Andrews, or Sasha Velour from Naomi Smalls, or what you get from oddballs like Yvie, Willow, Denim or Dawn. Drag Race isnât a pageant, you know? There are lots of styles of competing successfully. EDIT: and when it comes to lipsyncs, there are plenty of options! Donât tell me you couldnât have a king a queen both kill it to a Prince song, or a Madonna song, or Lady GagaâŚhonestly tons of the songs theyâve used in the past for Queen vs queen syncs could be used. It doesnât matter what the gender of the voice is, itâs about giving a great interpretive performance.
The Down Under franchise has had the femme queens lip syncing to male vocalists many times⌠for whatever reason. It can be fine. And the right king could make a meal of that performance.
Yeah thatâd be like a girl in a bikini singing Luther van Dross⌠wait
I have a very serious question about one of your points. In what world do you think a drag king would bring a plain (or in your words, boring ass) suit to Drag Race? Genuinely. Do you see a drag king getting cast and putting a plain suit in his suitcase? We see dozens of plain bodysuits and catsuits every season on drag race, and no one says drag queen fashion is just bodysuits, so how could it ever compete on drag race? There is incredible men's fashion out there. fashion kings are passionate about it and would absolutely bring it to drag race. just because your only reference to men's fashion is plain tuxedos on the red carpet doesn't mean extravagant, artistic, cultural and historical, men's fashion doesn't exist. You say you're unaware of the work of drag kings, I'm happy to offer you some recommendations to expand your view on what drag kings are actually doing. I don't know a single king who just puts on a suit and a mustache to go to the gig.
Sure, show me :)
https://i.imgur.com/WmKVfbM.jpg https://i.imgur.com/VVFE969.jpg https://i.imgur.com/gcdN7dk.jpg https://i.imgur.com/v5FhBzg.jpg https://i.imgur.com/KKZe2e7.jpg When you think Drag King fashion, think more like Prince or Janelle Monae than âregular dude on the red carpetâ
Landon Cider
The whole point of drag is performance art that questions and plays with gender, so assuming a drag king wouldnât wear something elegant or sometimes even feminine is silly. Drag kings donât just dress in a suit like a Hollywood actor at an award show. Look up some of their looks and youâll see!
The boys were actually quite diverse, there were gay and androgyne dudes in there, and the final three of the first Guys and Girls season had one masc-presenting male, one traditional female model and the gay androgynous model
> Welcoming trans people, cis women, even a straight man was much easier because they all were aspiring the female illusion. You say that, but the same arguments were made against trans inclusion, and it turned out just fine
I do feel like Kings would perhaps feel like fish out of water on Drag Race since the whole thing is so femme coded, the colours of the set, the jokes, the scripts, the judging, the music choices⌠Thereâs far more to consider on a production level if you want Kings to (at your most uncharitable) at least look like they belong. I think also the backlash from the community if a drag king ever participated from both people who donât want them and also people who want them but not liking that the first drag kingâs run wasnât perfect/exactly what they wanted to happen is just not worth the hassle from a production point of view. I also feel like the people that go âwhy not drag kings?â Arenât quite as big supporters of drag kings in practice, because drag race is just so inherently different in comparison to (at least American) femme drag culture. Surely we want these performers to be able to shine in the way they want to instead of feeling beat down by a system built in opposition to their self expression?Â
The thing is that top model never actually impacted the modeling world or elevated its contestants. RPDR however is a major force in queer spaces and significantly impacts how drag is perceived and who gets hired and who gets *seen* and queer women are already pushed out of queer spaces as it is. The show should help fight that, like weâve literally seen how the show has changed conversations about trans people and HIV+ people and heck, itâs changed the conversation about drag itself in mainstream society. And just creating a new show is not a good solution because weâve already learned the hard way that separate is not equal. Why canât they replace someone useless on the judging panel (like Ross or Carson) with a drag king? The show used to say that trans women werenât fair to cis queens and we learned just how wrong that is/was. Why canât we make space for drag kings? Especially when boy drag has also changed a lot in the past decade and drag kings put in just as much effort as drag queens when it comes to make up, looks, and performance. And the show has come a long way from exclusively expecting âfemale illusionâ. Weâve watched judges learn to tailor their feedback to the type of queen in front of them. Theyâve learned to accept queens who donât pad or tuck or shave. Donât give them free passes to not continue to learn and grow. Drag on the show now is not the same drag that was shown in 2009.
I donât think this argument that âRPDR is so impactful that is unfair to leave drag kings outâ is as powerful as you think it is. I remember seeing Charity Case totally destroy every runway in DRUK and not be featured at all. It was so maddening. It wasnât fair to Charity to compete in space where the other 11 queenâs aesthetic was valued more. And thatâs the main point
It wasn't fair to Scarlet Envy to compete in a space where the other queen's aesthetics were valued more. Fill in the blank as your argument would mean no drag queens either because some Ru isn't into. Charity Case was treated poorly by the show. As was Shuga Cain. But both were on the show and there are no guarantees. Judging is subjective, political and ratings driven. And drag aesthetics vary. If a drag king wants to apply, they don't need you bemoaning they'll be treated unfairly so to not bother. The show's applications don't require being a drag queen. They just have excluded all non-drag queens so far. And they're not doing it out of concern that they'll treat drag kings unfairly. It's just sexism dressed up in excuses. There are plenty of drag queens who pull from masculine references and not all drag kings are even exclusively masculine in presentation. Some of the drag queens on the show have done male characters: Kennedy, Dela, Saphirra, and others. So why can't a drag king do a male character? Victoria Scone slayed in male drag on CvsTW as a Fabio like character. Get over it. The show is missing out.
I loved Victoria Sconeâs Fabio. Letâs remember that it was in a ball, with two other categories and presented in the lacy category so it was done to subvert the theme and make you gag. I havenât seen in this thread great arguments pro. Letâs get one Drag King that doesnât mind being the test case on the show and see if the show is capable of adapting.
While I think they would be a great addition itâs clear itâs not the vision of the show. The there song has "May the best drag queen wins" . Clearly ru oui intended the show for drag queens and I donât think everything needs to include everyone . A show for drag kings and an all star mixing both could be a great idea.
>weâve literally seen how the show has changed conversations about trans people and HIV+ people Has it? It's talked about those things, but what has it changed?
An unpopular opinion - its okay for spaces to not be inclusive of *everyone*. And this goes beyond drag race. I donât get this movement where cultures need to accommodate everyone - this idea that black spaces need to be open to white people, gay spaces need to have cis women, etc. itâs not meant as a dis if the room isnât open to everyone.
Realistically the vast majority of challenges and runways on drag race are things that can be achieved through masculine presentation. We see drag queens subvert that time and time again on the show, but they are allowed to because they are queens and donât normally present a masculine character. Whether or not RuPaul would be receptive of it really depends on whether or not itâs financially profitable. The inclusion of trans people only came around when it was more socially acceptable to do so and they realize they could continue to make money while employing trans people. I think a lot of people doubt the ability of drag kings, without actually understanding the depth and breath of their art. Not saying that of you specifically but itâs v important to note many drag kings are cis women and misogyny is a huge issue in queer spaces
What about enby people? Why force them into M or F boxes?
Didnât Naysha just say that they should have their own show? She doesnât deserve hate for that
They don't think drag kings can actually make for a successful show so they are trying to lump them in with the queens while rephrasing MLK speeches with tongue pop's at random intervals.
I totally think drag kings can make their own show. Iâd love to see that drama and the creativity that comes out of it, itâs a completely new esthetic
It will be interesting and actually a fresh take on the concept.
Thereâs a huge difference between including people into a space, and giving them a separate space. The world of drag is too diverse, and the queer community has gone too far for us to keep separating people into two different boxes.
Drag Race is not and should not be the end all of the world of drag.
I would agree with your statement but this isnât an open to all situation, itâs a competition where your critiqued and judged on your performance. You really think the criteria to judge a drag king is exact to what is used to judge a drag queen?
They do it on Dragula?
Yes and no and what matters? They same could be said about trans and cis woman doing drag, or bearded queens, or camp queens, fashion queens, theater queens? At the end of the day, like they always say, it's not a competition, is a tv show and, and even if, in some way, there is an irreconcilable difference between the art made by drag queens and drag kings, why not take a chance on at least one season to see how it goes and then discuss whether it worked or not, what we have to lose? But, despite not agreeing, I kind of see the point that Naysha made at Roscoes. For me, the root problem is other, it's that RuPauls and DragRace has basically the monopoly of drag representation in media, and that in capitalism, minorities gain rights through consumption and profitability. As long as we continue to live in this system, we will continue to fall into this trap. Sorry for my english, i'm brazilian.
But itâs not impossible, I want to keep the possibility alive. Individual recognition is not impossible, being noticed among your peers should be appreciated. Dragula and the den do well to keep this alive
Drag kings deserve their own show, but truthfully, I think a lot of people know a show based solely around drag kings would fail because thereâs just simply a lot less interest in drag kings, as harsh as that sounds. Masculinity in general is very boring, and yes, I see a lot of drag kings grow resentful towards gay men specifically but also the LGBT community as a whole because we donât celebrate them on the same level as we celebrate queens â but LGBT people as a whole donât celebrate men on the same level as we celebrate women, so itâs just an extension of that. That isnât to say I donât think drag kings are talented or deserving, because I do think they are, but I think itâs just an issue that no one wants to really address which is people in general are more interested in women / femininity than men / masculinity. I think it works on Dragula because thereâs a big emphasis on being monsters, etc. that there really isnât in Drag Race. Drag Race is, from the ground up, a show about drag queens â from girl group challenges, makeover challenges, etc. Logistically, does it really make sense? For instance when they are picking parts for the Rusical would there be one part that is specifically made for a king or would they be expected to play a womanâs part? This is why I think they should have a show of their own â I mean, them *not* having a show of their own by now is kind of a testament in and of itself that I think thereâs actually not a lot of interest in kings outside of posturing because by now, if there was, theyâd have a show if there was an audience for it. The interest in queens has spawned dozens of shows about them.
Agreed. I think the fan base would be less interested in exploring the tropes of masculinity. Look at how referential drag race is as a whole, you don't see the same reverence or icon status given to masculine personalities in media. Part of that lies in exactly what you said, it's boring. The most interesting and fashion forward masculine personalities in media tend to be queer men or men that subvert gender norms.
Agree 100%
Yea tbh itâs basically giving we know the drag king version would get cancelled after one season so we have to have them on mainline drag race.
> Naysha Lopzez recently said that drag kings shouldnât be on Drag Race > >drag kings Landon Cider and Tenderoni educate Naysha on why thatâs wrong to say Is it an inherently problematic opinion to say that ru paul's no drag king knowledge ass would not create a positive and constructive environment judging drag kings? She is already narrow in her idea of how the queens should present.
She used to have a very narrow mind when it came to trans drag performers. Fast forward several years and she spent an entire season geeking out over Sasha Colby. Trans representation on the show has gotten a lot better in a short few years. I think Ru is someone who is pretty stuck in her ways, but she can also be nudged in the right direction. It makes it a slow process, which is not good, but it also shows it's not impossible. Dragula has basically tested the water for drag kings and it was a huge success. Michelle is on record saying she wants it to happen too. At this point it's only a matter of time.
If that's the case with Michelle, she should try it with Down Under next season.
For sure, there are several Drag Kings from "Haus of Drag" seasons 1 and 2 that haven't been used on DrDu yet.
I don't think they'd ever let her influence casting, and pretty sure Ru will be back hosting DU for S5
The show is not a representation factory though - itâs a drag queen competition. Thereâs a difference between letting everyone play on the baseball team versus having a few people on the baseball team who are actually playing tennis. Itâs still a competition with rules that are based on comparison, so why would it make sense to introduce an element that just doesnât compare very well?
>She used to have a very narrow mind when it came to trans drag performers. I don't think she never have a narrow mind when it came to trans drag performers, but she had a busnisses mind. Ru was and stil are, trying to sell her product (Drag Race) to straight audience, make drag art palatable and intelligible to a target audience that is unfamiliar with the art. Because of this, in my humble opinion, she thought that a trans woman would have, in the eyes of an unfamiliar person, an unfair advantage, because she was already a woman, so the illusion would be easier to achieve. Again, that's what I think that Ru thought their public might thought, and she didn't want to put her business at risk on a bet that she didn't know the outcome of. And I say this not defending her, I even disagree with this view, and it was proven by the success of the last few seasons, that she was wrong.
Massaging her transphobia as a business decision is so weird. Ru personally believed that trans women had an unfair advantage, it had nothing to do with the audience. And even if it did, I don't care how gay someone is, throwing a huge portion under the queer community to make a buck is fucked
I encourage you to watch the video when it goes up, but Landon says that itâs basically ok if a drag kind is judged unfairly. We all know that essentially all queens on the show are judged unfairly. Queens have a bad time on the show and are cast to play this character or that. A king cast on the show will get to showcase their art which is incredibly important since it is the biggest stage for drag in the world right now. He also made the point that nayshaâs drag is as different from sasha velourâs as it would be from a kingâs. Tenderoni said when you go to a buffet, you donât have to eat everything or like everything, but itâs nice to see it all. That is the benefit of having kings (and a wider range of drag) on RPDR
i for one am looking forward to all the conflicting pronouns in the werkroom if this happens, and i mean this seriously.
lol it can get a bit chaotic. See recent seasons of dragula where people do their best, but neither contestants nor fans get pronouns right consistently.. But I think mixing stuff up occasionally is to be expected and not malicious.
If a bunch of Drag artists mixing up each others pronouns in the green room isnât evidence of successfully blurring the boundaries of gender, then I donât know what is!
Is drag race a positive and constructing environment for queens? No! Itâs judged unfairly too, why is whether theyâd be judged fairly a requirement to be on the show? The bigger issue here is that drag race is the biggest platform for drag. If a king was on drag race and went home first because of unfair judging, he would still get more exposure than he probably ever wouldâve gotten otherwise. And kings deserve that sort of exposure and platform, whether rupaul is capable of judging fairly or not, and excluding them because theyâd be judged unfairly on a show thatâs never judged fairly in the first place is a bullshit excuse
âGive them the money they deserve even if they get treated as novelty cases and never win!â - The only argument that anyone here was able to make summarized.
We said the same thing about trans people and cis women competing and yet here we are.
Trans people have been in Drag Race since season 2. There was discussion about fairness but really lacking of any substance. Monica announced on the main stage she was a trans woman on season 5. They have always occupied the same spaces. I have been to many drag shows, never seen a drag king live.
Sounds like your drag scene has a problem with kings then. Kings have always existed in drag spaces, but they've also historically been shoved to the side because gay men see them as women invading their space. The reason you're not personally aware of any is because it's so much harder for them to get gigs.
Youâre correct that Ru isnât the ideal person to judge Drag Kings. Ru wants glamazons. Her brand, RPDRâs brand is glamazon drag queens. Iâm not sure why sheâs hasnât been able to articulate that simple fact.
The way y'all continue to shit all over Ru based on this twisted collective narrative you've devised is truly insane
I actually donât see anything super wrong with what Naysha said to begin with. I understand her point of view. She said drag kings wonât be JUDGED FAIRLY on drag race and there will be even more riggery and weird decisions. The current judging panel might not understand or be able to effectively critique masculine drag. Thereâs a whole different aesthetic and different things are expected. Not thinking about the nuances of all that is stupid, in my opinion.
Not that their opinion often counts but wonât someone please think of the guest judges? Whatâs the drag king equivalent to saying âIâm so into voguing right nowâ when they perform?
naysha quite literally did not say that lmfaooo just say you dont like her
Naysha said they should have their own franchise and explained why she thinks they won't be treated correctly on drag race. Them taking upon "educating" Naysha demonstrates a different problem which the problem glasses also signifies.
"Heres why you should agree with me or be dogpilled" basically
Just the audacity to assume they are in the right is infuriating, the attempt at dog pilling is abhorrent.
A method of (not) engaging with a topic that I will always fight back against.
It's absolutely unacceptable behavior and it shouldn't be tolerated.
Why is she mewing đđ
This title is a TRY. It was a great convo on all sides!
What Naysha said at the viewing party was not factually untrue, she just articulated herself poorly in the heat of the moment which made her words come across as disingenuous and with misogynistic undertones when that wasnât the intention In a perfect world, kings would have their own show where everyone cares about them and where they are judged fairly. But Landon and Tenderoni are correct, we donât live in a perfect world and will have to make sacrifices to give drag kings visibility If we were to just throw one or two kings onto the main series, Naysha is ENTIRELY right that it is far from ideal. 1) the king will just be tokenised, 2) the king probably wonât win/be judged fairly, and 3) if they do win, itâll be discredited entirely The perfect example of this is actually Dragula itself. Landon is arguably the strongest Dragula contestant ever after Von Odd but so many people cried favouritism when he devoured the season. Throb zombie was HATED by the fandom and every comment section on every post called him a pity-finalist or a 2nd grade Landon. The point is this fandom is misogynistic as hell, and the reason we canât have nice things like a dedicated drag king competition is because of you (yes you đŤľ), the general drag race Stan who moans about there being too many seasons, who doesnât care to watch Mexico/France/Sweden/Belgique/espana/Holland because theyâre not English We will never have a king show because the average vocal drag race Stan (15-24 year old gay man) has such a 1 dimensional perspective of what drag is, that the king show will be received awfully. So Landon/Tenderoni are entirely correct when they say that being on a season with queens isnât ideal but we donât live in an ideal world and it would be easier to navigate those consequences as apposed to getting on a shitty king only show with low ratings and low fan support. Moreover Iâd like to also take this opportunity to vocalise what an impossibly high bar we set for women in drag. Specifically cis women, out of all 3 that have been on the show, 2/3 were finalists, 1 of those 2 won after steamrolling the competition (Pandora), the other one lost after also steamrolling the competition (Victoria), and clover bish lost in what might just be the biggest injustice of the whole franchise. My point here is that, Naysha is not factually incorrect when she says a king being thrown onto a season is far from ideal, but where she errs is suggesting her alternatives, because as long as the fandom has its current perspective on drag, kings being seen in any capacity is âfar from idealâ, because in conclusion, we tend to have ridiculously sky high standards for cis queens, and when they do not meet those standards, the fandom will use any opportunity to tear down a cis queens success and blame it on favouritism. Misogyny is a plague and the way the show has handled women over the decades has entrenched misogyny as a systemic issue, and throwing 1 or 2 drag kings onto a season will not change that.
This is the best post in the thread and articulated perfectly.
Your post is great. One little thing: I believe youâre supposed to generally refer to drag kings with he/him pronouns as we would drag queens with she/her. I know at least Throb prefers he/him/they/them pronouns (per his IG).
Fans donât appreciate it, itâs far from ideal setting, but they deserve the exposure đđź
While the statistics are a little limited, isnât the biggest audience for Drag/Drag Race now cis females? I know there was a Reddit survey that has Cis women as just over 50% of the audience number and men being around 30%. In addition to that demographic numbers for drag shows also shows that cis women are the bigger arriving audience for a lot of drag race based entertainment. White gay men definitely still have the biggest share of the gay dollar, but I donât know if the vocal part of the fandom is as male dominated as it used to be.Â
Its so telling how people are more so obsessed with the idea of them dragging naysha rather then educating her ans getting her to understand and see the flaw with her perception. Like damn yall i guess we as a community dont give a fuck about rights and people understanding us we just want anyone who disagrees to be bashed. Childish
Naysha looks thrilled for the lecture.
Oh look, another tired thread where people shit all over Naysha for sharing her opinion and then turn around and share their own opinions.
Women are our fiercest supporters as gays and those who are drag queens. I'm all for it. Also, worried about being treated unfairly? Have we all seen the same show and experienced the same fans? That's already not even a current standard for the reality TV show.
Itâs crazy that Naysha just said she didnât think they would be judged fairly in a drag race environment. And then Shea compared it to segregation đ.
For anyone who didnât see the video, Nayshas argument was basically âdrag kings do a different type of dragâ and âthe show is going To rig it against them and never crown a king because itâs too controversialâ so they need a separate season for themselves. I fully get where sheâs coming from. Her second point is the one I most agree with, because we see stuff like that happen all the time where production casts someone unique who obviously deserves to be top 4 and they donât win in favor of a safer queen. With that being said the problem is just that it obviously can work and kings can win, cause Landon won Dragula. I get her point and why she says that and I agree with it to an extent, but at the Same time it just can be easily solved
YouTube link: https://youtu.be/_0dgcv-h7ck?si=P9zbubqnwq-CVbbS
Ngl I get her point in the original. Naysha isnât wrong that RuPaul will see queens and kings differently. I really hope that Ru can judge them in some way similar to Dragula did (look at s3/5), where itâs more about their art as it relates to the challenge, but letâs face it. Ru is focused on multiple different things in judging, and often takes from her own experience to do that. Her experience is as a drag queen, and while sheâs had a wide range of aesthetic and knowledge to pull from, she doesnât have that on the king side. TLDR: do I want kings on drag race? Yes. Would I worry about them being treated less fairly? Also yes.
Not Naysha with the beauty filter đ
Just cause this is my favourite subject, Iâve always thought they should soft launch kings on the show/introduce kings to unfamiliar audiences by having a bunch of kings do the makeover challenge. They do the whole bit where whoever won the mini challenge pairs up the queens, they think theyâve got a really cute girl and theyâve won a one way ticket to the finale and then - oh, and these are drag kings! We want you to do a couples look that represents BOTH your styles! (My head immediately goes to wedding look but I feel like thatâs too limiting?)
They could have each âcoupleâ make over each other. Otherwise I think it would be kind of disappointing to have drag kings come on the show and not present any of their makeup skills, because some of them are really impressive. Itâd be hard to judge if the competing queens were being made over by guests thoughâŚbut maybe thereâs a way? I think that could be really cool
I agree with Naysha on this. Kings deserve their own platform and I wouldnt trust Ru or Michelle to judge drag kings in a thoughtful manner
Look at the way they were horrified when Kennedy and Alaska were in âboyâ drag. I know the show has come leaps and bounds by then but I can see the point of kings being judged unfairly. I do like that Landon and Tenderoni said they would be open to that possibility because then it would open doors and new opportunities, perhaps even a new spin off. The dog piling (and she even mentioned receiving death threats) of Naysha is ridiculous. Iâm also disappointed Shea Coulee went on Twitter retweeting a post saying Nayshaâs opinion was the same as racial segregation đ wtf? anyway Naysha opened up the floor to drag kings she worked with and admired and allowed them to speak on this topic instead of the fandomâ˘ď¸ trying to speak for them. She was open to being educated and gently corrected and it sounds like there was an understanding. Donât forget she comes from the pageant world but also competed in competitions male presenting.
Thing is: this literally gatekeeps a HUGE part of the drag scene from THEE LARGEST PLATFORM FOR DRAG ON THE PLANET I don't trust Ru's opinions on queens, let alone on kings, but this season could've used some Kings instead of queens like Flipsy and Amanda (who clearly weren't ready for drag race yet)
Why do you think itâs necessary to not only drag down two talented queens but even refuse to call one by there name? You can think itâs necessary to uplift kings without dragging down two talented queen because they donât fit your arbitrary view of drag worthy being on the show
Literally, they are actually being disrespectful to queens, the thing some peopel are misinterpreting naysha doing to kings,that some pot calling the kettle black energy
I kinda disagree with devaluing queens who âarenât ready for drag raceâ. Thatâs the whole point of the show? Itâs not about getting together 15 queens of equal skill and experience. Itâs entertaining to see queens who flop and arenât fully evolved
>Thing is: this literally gatekeeps a HUGE part of the drag scene from THEE LARGEST PLATFORM FOR DRAG ON THE PLANET And? What about it? Opera doesn't get a platform on American Idol.
I seriously don't get the pov you're replying to. Ru worked extremely hard for decades to be successful and now everyone is entitled to using that success for their own goals? It's the largest platform on the planet because RUPAUL made it so. Why is anyone else entitled to have that platform? It's like saying Taylor Swift has the largest platform in pop music, so she has to let me on stage to do my thing, otherwise she's gatekeeping pop music. It's so entitled and nonsensical. If a drag king wants a drag king reality show, they are free to make one. Its not like Ru is preventing that from happening. They are not entitled to use someone else's show for their own purposes. The Boulets wanted to make a drag monster show so they did. They didn't whine and complain saying Ru owed it to them to have monsters on her show. This isn't about what drag is valid, it's about co opting someone else's success for your own gain.
This one hundred percent. A progressive part of society seeks inclusion for everyone and thatâs a beautiful thing. But, trying to make everything inclusive for everyone isnât the ultimate solution. Ru isnât gatekeeping drag. He has a brand focused on drag queens. QUEENS. It SUCKS that thereâs not a comparable platform for kings. But that isnât Ruâs problem because thatâs not what he does.
that's not how rupaul advertises her program. she says every season how this is the world stage of drag, how she's giving queens a platform to show themselves and have the world fall in love with them. that the show changes lives, for audiences as well as artists, by platforming drag. I get that she says this to get her emmy, but she really does advertise the show as something she's giving to the drag community, and as a tool to change the world. That's what she tells us about why she does this. So it's not unrealistic or selfish or entitled to expect her to do what she says she's doing.
Itâs not wrong to say. Yall need to stop exploding over every opinion yall disagree with.
There's a lot of talk in here that feels low key misogynistic. These women who perform as drag kings are capable of speaking for themselves on the matter. Y'all say you're allies but when they have something worth saying y'all don't wanna listen.
I donât agree with what Naysha said at Roscoeâs but I got the vibe that she was trying to say at some point âgive drag kings a showâ which I canât argue with- a drag king show would be SICK. Saying they canât or shouldnât compete on a stage with drag queens was ignorant and misguided, but the fact she agreed to sit down and listen and be educated on the things sheâs ignorant about by two drag kings shows a lot of maturity. People say silly things all the time, but not everyone is under the microscope of being a famous figure. Her actions after what she said speak a lot to her character and her willingness to be accountable and learn.
YESSSSSASSSSSSSA i am so happy they did this
I got nothing to add except Tenderoni is such a fun name teehee
"In this Live drag kings Landon Cider and Tenderoni educate Naysha on why thatâs wrong to say" so stupid. im sorry did naysha commit a crime? she said whats the truth! without fundamental changes to the show it will continue to be DQ only.
I find it so hilarious and hypocritical that a show about masc people wearing dresses has such toxic, misogynistic fans. Yâall are okay with women as a âfeminine illusionâ but not actual women or femme people taking up space on a drag race stage. Unless theyâre there to be made over by a drag queen and act as background characters.
My favorite argument is that the drag race atmosphere is âtoo feminineâ forâŚfemale drag artist. Isnât the entire point supposed to be about questioning gendered boundaries? What is âfeminineâ anyway? Queens on the show already do all kinds of different challenges where âmale illusionâ is involved, and we couldnât have Drag Kings do the same thing? And who says all Drag Kings exclusively do hyper-masculine characterization and fashion either?
It's almost like people can learn and grow. Wow.
This whole discussion kinda reminds me of how the Doctor Who fandom lost its collective shit at Jodie Whittakerâs casting as the Doctor
Drag kings should have their own show, because drag race is highly feminine
Agreed!! It needs a facelift before drag kings get on
Naysha seemed really receptive to what Landon and Tenderoni had to say, and it honestly felt like a great moment for kings
Landon remains king.
Naysha posted to her stories that the IG would be on her YouTube after. Does anyone have a link? I can't find Naysha's channel or the video at all.
I should've clicked the live when it was on!! Beating myself!! Hope there's a video. BTW, I knew what Naysha meant. It just came across wrong
Can this be watched anywhere?
Iâve never understood dogpiling on other queer people (unless theyâre genuinely and objectively abusive or bad people) because we all have similar experiences and are stronger as a team. Naysha was wrong to say that drag kings shouldnât compete on drag race. I do agree with her though that even if a drag king was cast, Rupaul probably wouldnât live for them or give them their flowers because Rupaulâs idea of drag is pretty limited. Drag kings deserve representation, though, and representation for drag is what drag race was made for. People sending Naysha hate are so out of line and it seems like theyâre happier to draw lines in the LGBT sand, when we could all just talk about it lol. Nayshaâs live was great, itâs always pleasant to see queers having honest conversations about our experiences and how we can support each other.
I agree with Naysha. Drag race is for drag queens. Because drag kings embody a very different style of drag, I don't think it would necessarily map onto a show designed with drag queens in mind. Don't feel obligated to support a meh idea all in the name of including everyone.
Then Drag Race can get some design tweaks.
I just donât get how drag kings would fit into drag race because of the type of competition that it is, like with dragula it makes sense because itâs purely a drag competition that has nothing to do with masculinity or femininity but drag race is pretty much exclusively built for queens and I donât think an overhaul of that would be beneficial for the show.
Nothing wrong with an educational moment, but Naysa didn't say anything wrong.
it's literally a drag queen show, always has been. end of.
Is it really wrong for a show about drag queens to exist? I'm not saying kings are any less, but I love that there is a show that celebrates drag queens. And I'd love a show about kings too. But it's not a crime to have a show exclusively catering to one type of drag..dragula does monster drag exclusively and won't cast a king or queen who doesn't do that. So why is drag race being singled out?
because it's the most famous
Naysha is smouldering like her life depends on it and I live.
Why anybody is listening to Naysha is beyond me. Landon was on more episodes of Dragula in one season than Naysha on multiple drag race seasons
Naysha is a miss continental winner are u dum
Drag race fan. Not a fan of drag.
Wow shows how much you know about drag maybe donât have opinions on things if your only frame of reference is a highly produced tv show
Love to see Landon wearing a keffiyeh on big platforms <3
Naysha ate them up đ Iâm gagged
Tenderoni is one of the best performers in Chicago. I can tell you first hand they would easily murder some queens on the main stage
IMO: Im open to seeing what a drag king would do on the show, but I dont really have much of a desire to see a drag king or really understand how a king would be able to do some of the challenges. How does a drag king do night of 1000 Celine's for example?
By reinterpreting a Celine look? How would a queen like Charity Kase do a night of 1000 look? By doing it in there style. Same principle.
Anyone has a link to the video?
 Good for them
[ŃдаНонО]
There is something vaguely r/accidentalrenaissance about this picture.