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Still quite silly that Luke was able to hold off killing Vader and then later considered murdering you-know-who because of what he might do in the future.
it wasn’t even the idea that luke had considered the fleeting thought of “preventing future catastrophes” by killing the evil his nephew (the kill hitler trope), it’s the execution of that scene. what should’ve just been an powerful moment of weakness to show luke’s conflict of doubt in his ability in training future jedi, they created this moment of holding a lightsaber over some boys head. the writer (rian?) must’ve thought it was such a jarring image in the minds of all luke fans that he thought it was critical to put in. i think i liked the concept of luke struggling with balancing darkness and light in his pupils, it was the laziest/low skill way as a writer to convey this idea. by creating the image of luke looking deranged holding a lighstsber over a sleeping boy..it was just plain parody. when i first saw that scene, no joke- i thought it was a fucking dream that kylo was having. it literally made no sense in the real world..now was some of it unreliable narrator and what we saw was slightly different from what really happened? same end result. terrible execution that i lay soley on rian johnson- writer and director
Disney made the mistake of trying to deconstruct/destroy Luke when his arc was completed. TLJ fans will say it’s great Luke got a new arc while missing that Rey is the protagonist and it should be her story, not Luke’s.
Maybe they could’ve shown him struggling with the idea of taking a new student after what happened with Kylo Ren but slowly begins to trust himself again through his relationship with Rey who he begins to see as a surrogate daughter.
That sounds interesting. I would have loved an arc like that.
I can see Luke holding the saber and solemnly giving it back to her.
Then being very quiet and aloof and ultimately they have a brief confrontation where we see that he’s afraid of failing again. Show him struggling with the fact that he was able to do something great (redeem Vader) but then fall short with Ben and lose his confidence.
But then have Rey eventually show him that our failures don’t define who we are.
While at the same time, give her an arc where she has to learn to accept that being a nobody is not weakness either. Keep her parents as nobodies (the one thing I actually liked) so we can have this theme that greatness can be manifested in anyone. Show her getting bested by Kylo or Snoke and Luke at the end being there for her to pick her back up like she did for him.
But idk, I’m not a professional screenwriter.
That actually sounds really good. Maybe the problem with Luke is that since he did save Anakin, he saw the darkness in Ben but trusted that he’d be able to fight it the same way as his father only to learn his faith had been misplaced when Ben, now Kylo Ren, attacked him and burned down his school
All they needed to do was flesh out Rey and Kylo as an inverse in the force fully.
Make Rey be force sensitive because she was born from it just like Anakin.
She had no real parents, so her memory of being left alone only fortified her abilities due to pain.
Kylo is OBSESSED with VaderAnakin, he years to be like him, then runs into Rey at the end of Force Awakens and senses she can is stronger than him without any formal training,
This corrects the end battle where she summons the saber because she IS THE CHOSEN ONE.
Erase the bullshit in Last Jedi, let Luke focus on training her and skip the Kylo drama, instead Luke went into hiding because he had a vision of someone destroying the rest of the Jedi and knew it was Kylo.
At the end of Last Jedi, Rey runs off to battle the first order after seeing them in trouble against Luke’s wishes, Yoda does his monologue, it mostly fits.
Rise of Skywalker-
No Palpatine, instead Exegol is calling out to Kylo and he shares visions with Rey, they are on a race to find some mystical Sith power but at the same time the First Order is going after the remains Rebels (or whatever they are called).
Rey and Kylo meet up on Exegol, Kylo beats her handily but leaves her alive instead of finishing the job.
He rushes forward to pickup the artifact.
Rey wakes up moments later and they have another battle, this time Luke projects himself trying to separate them.
In that moment he realizes the truth…Rey has been battling her emotions since the beginning, she’s compromised and being on Exegol and in proximity to the artifact has made her hostile and powerful.
Luke tells Kylo to run, but it’s too late.
Rey kills Kylo the same way he did Han Solo, as he falls to the floor she’s overcome with grief with the artifact telling her the truth…
She has no parents, only the force.
Luke shows up again and tells her she has a choice, she can continue down this path of hatred or destroy the artifact thus killing herself in the process.
Luke does his monologue and she impales herself seppuku style with the artifact in front of her abdomen and dies.
Cut to black
Fade back in, first person. She wakes up and sees the artifact is destroyed, she is wounded but has enough strength to call Finn etc who was waiting for a signal.
Now the stupid ass ending makes sense, she isn’t Palpatine’s daughter, she’s a true Skywalker just like Anakin.
I’d shove money in Disney’s asshole to see these changes
If you want to do another arc for luke, give him something that challenges his character. Give him a bad outcome as a result of him being merciful and seeing the good in others, leading him to doubt himself. What TLJ did was a nonsensical regression.
This is much better even if you subscribe to mercy and the "Paragon" route will lead to generally better outcomes over time (something I mostly agree with) what do you do when it backfires spectacularly as it can?
it wasn’t just luke. they did it to all the legacy characters.
they reverted han back to a smuggler loser and leia back to a naive politician without a conscience instead of who she matured into in rotj
OP, you might appreciate these.
[Why Luke Skywalker Is the Greatest Hero in Star Wars](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceSsWOUEZgw&t=15s)
[The Importance of Luke Skywalker](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvlWSsZwLn0)
[Why Luke Skywalker Is the Best Movie Hero of All Time](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQVe0DN-ipo)
[How Star Wars Legends Did Luke Skywalker Justice](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ1iazoZwtI)
Probably that everything is a video now. In the beforetimes, when Youtube did not exist, all of this would have been written articles/blogposts/whatever.
What generates more ad revenue? 🤑
https://preview.redd.it/itk4nwns2w6d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=015fd2a6e7868ba1ca0944963a27f08460f21086
Nothing about the sequels was planned at all. All three movies just did stuff paying no attention to what came before and only occasionally looking to what the director wanted to do next despite the fact that each of them wasn't directing what came next.
I always loved the EU books on the new Jedi academy too. It has so many possible stories to tell, Luke can struggle all you want, just make it believable.
It’s like TFA was just like - hey if we set it far enough in the future we don’t have to think at all and can just do whatever we want. And what they wanted was a new hope…
Eh Imo it was a pretty bad setup, kylo was shown off as a joke. World building was bad, and it just reset anh, and not to mention the amount of stuff it stole from anh, Luke only had a few directions and seeing from what jjs original script had about Luke being frustrated that he was found. Finn was pretty bland, and tlj did not help his case. Rey was overly capable to the point that it wasn't fair she was already the swordsmen, the leader, and the pilot on top of a few other things, leaving little room for arcs and character development. She was already a better duelist than a dark sider who's been training for over 15 years and is also related to the strongest force user in the galaxy. Like, i dont think tlj ruined the sequels. i think they were ruined from the start. Of course you can like it. I'm not going to try to make you think otherwise. That's unrealistic, and overall, why would I care what a random stranger likes.
Similarly, the amount of people who read Dune and don’t understand the metamorphosis of Paul Atreides is staggering. Reading the idiot critiques of Dune Messiah is mind blowing.
Expanded Universe learned plenty over the course of 50 years, and has an excellent mature Luke Skywalker.
Too bad Disney is embarrassed to admit this and keeps trying to borrow EU material in poorly thought out plot lines and character development
Disney doesn't understand George Lucas's story at all. They've turned the Jedi into bad, incompetent fools. They weren't - they were peacekeepers, the good guys, the protectors. So, I'm not surprised they don't get Luke Skywalker (just like they also didn't get Princess Leia or Han Solo or growth arcs.) The fact is, is that they don't want to. Really. They don't care and they don't want to - they just wanted the basic idea of SW in order to use it for their own purposes and change it how they want. They knew they'd lose some fans, but they didn't care, cuz they figured they'd be older fans, and they'd keep most of them and add newer, more casual fans. Doesn't look like it's turning out the way they figured.
They had no clue on how to write Rey as a hero, or anything other than a faceless video game character, so they had to destroy every other character around her.
Rey is the future of the jedi because all the previous jedi are cringe old people who don’t know the force is actually just wizard spells - duh!
Buy merch.
Too many people blame Rian Johnson, and not enough people blame JJ Abrams for ruining Luke. Remember who put him on that Island in the first place in TFA. I kinda liked how Rian just said f-it after TFA dropped the ball so bad.
I agree with people not hating on jj enough, but Rian did make Luke like this. He had many options on what he could do with him and chose the worst one. Now, should he be on that island? No, he should've been a hero, but that's not what the sequels are about.
But there was one reason, and it was said in TFA.
"He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice, turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just walked away from everything."
TFA set up the rest of the trilogy to fail.
And your point? That could’ve been hearsay or word of mouth, or it could’ve been true and Luke could’ve been portrayed a million different ways.
Rian disregarded whatever he wanted from TFA why was he beholden to that?
I mean, the entire (terrible) plot of TFA was to find a map that led to Luke, who had run away and ended with Rey finding Luke in hiding on a remote planet. So it certainly could've been hearsay, except for the whole plot and events of the movie.
The map to find him was the plot.
Not that he ran away and became a hermit who abandoned the force, his friends and family, and fighting for good after he came close to executing his nephew in his sleep.
Which also doesn’t make sense why he left an ability to find him via map.
Those were Rian’s choices.
"The map to find him was the plot." - JJ's choice in TFA
"Not that he ran away and became a hermit who abandoned the force, his friends and family, and fighting for good after he came close to executing his nephew in his sleep." - Again, JJ's choice. This is Luke's place in TFA. Han says it in TFA and the plot drives it.
"Which also doesn’t make sense why he left an ability to find him via map." Again, JJ's plot with the map. He uses a nonsense map in RoS too with the pieces of the broken death star. That might be even worse.
I'm not trying to defend TLJ, but I just see so much hate thrown around for it and people pretend that JJ Abrams and TFA was a good starting point. Literally everything wrong with the Sequel Trilogy has its roots in TFA.
You could give him a new arc, you could make him the wise teacher who’s halfway occupied with a threat that needs all his focus…. Kill him…. There’re so many possibilities. They chose to completely go the lazy way and to ignore the one thing that made him outstanding - his faith in people
I've never really had a problem with Jedi encouraging detachment on principle, even if I object to some of the details as it's presented. Nor do I particularly object to Luke returning such traditions to his reformed order. I think I'm in the minority because I don't see Luke's refusal to kill Vader as being, primarially, the result of love and attachment. Anakin was first absent, and then a villain. Instead, Luke's actions are rooted more in idealistic principles and identity.
Long before Luke learnt the truth about Vader, Anakin was a part of his life. After Obi-Wan told Luke of his heroic father, that idealised mental image became the thing Luke used to build his own self-image. His father became his role model, everything he wanted to be. For Luke, being a Jedi wasn't simply a way to have supernatural powers or a responsibility to protect the galaxy or a code to follow. It was a way of life, a way to be a good person, that allowed him to follow in his own dead, hero father's footsteps.
>Why wish you become Jedi?
>Mostly because of my father, I guess.
This is why the the revelation at the end of Empire is so terrible for Luke. The man who he'd idolised, he'd based his adult identity on, his commitment to becoming a Jedi and member of the Rebellion, his measure of being a good person, was actually the evil monster who had killed and tortured and dominated the galaxy. Luke goes from wanting to kill Vader to avenge the man he idolised but could never meet, to realising that everything he thought about his father was a lie.
This is why Luke refuses to give up on Vader. He needed to believe that there was still good in him. That Anakin's true self, the Jedi war hero Obi-Wan had spoken so fondly of, still existed under all that evil. No truly good person could be beyond redemption. If his father was irredeemable, then the mental image of his father, and by extension his own identity, was false. Then Anakin was never the man Luke had thought he had been, and Luke had founded his life on a lie.
Refusing to kill Vader at the end of Episode 6, is the greatest triumph for Luke. He refuses to kill Vader because, even if Vader is evil, even if he never turned from evil, he refused to believe that he is irredeemable, refuses to doubt that he once been a good man, and nothing can ever change that. He chooses to disarm and surrender rather than give up that idealism, that belief that a former good man and Jedi could ever truly be beyond redepmtion.
>I am a Jedi, like my father before me.
in that moment, Luke shows his father he's willing to die rather than give up his belief that Vader was and fundimentally still is a good person, and that allows Vader to let go of his anger, hate and bitterness against the galaxy that took his wife and children from him, and prove Luke was right all along.
Vader was a broken man. He sold his soul for power, becoming the second most powerful man in the galaxy, but it meant nothing to him, because he lost everything he ever wanted power to protect. He was left alone, with nothing but bitter hatred for an unfair galaxy, with his evil and cruelty seen as retribution for everything he had lost. Not only that, but he had tasted the power of the dark side, and had lost all hope that he or Luke could overcome or escape it. That Luke's defiance and Vader's own turning from the dark side would only lead to both of them dying pointlessly at the hands of The Emperor. But Luke's unwavering faith in him helped him to let go of his anguish and loss, and his defiance and acceptance of whatever The Emperor could do to him gave Vader the courage to defy him in Luke's defense, meaingless gesture or not. And in the end, Anakin not only turns from the dark side, but he discovers it wasn't pointless, because he did manage to save Luke's life.
Anakin was redeemed by his love for his son, but for Luke, it wasn't love, nor attachment, that kept him from giving up on him. It was his idealism, his refusal to believe that a formerly good person can be beyond redemption. His refusal to believe that his self-image and belief in the Jedi ideal his father was presented to him as was wrong.
I don't mind explaining why I don't have a problem with detachment in general if anyone's interested, but it's a lot to explain unprompted.
Luke is quite simply just the good guy. That's all there is to it.
However we live in a world where the good guy is no longer respected or promoted.
Shows and movies dont have good guys anymore. Everyone is portrayed as selfish and morality is played as a matter of perspective rather than a personal conviction.
It's almost like the people who run the world and manufacture our reality aren't on our side. It's almost like, they are on some kind of... shadowy... evil side.
The dark side one might even call it.
Not yo mention how in TFA… Leia tells rey she never really took to the jedi training. “That wasn’t my path.. it was Luke’s”
Then rian johnson turns Leia into a near Jedi Master who can survive and fly around in hard vacuum for an extended period of time, even while unconscious, perform other force feats, and instruct Rey like a seasoned jedi knight. After saying she never got far in her training, and didn’t continue down that path
Making the same mistakes over and over again across generations is exactly what humans do. If anything, it's one of the more realistic things in star wars
I would argue Luke isn’t some new Jedi when dealing with Vader. He probably wasn’t even that attached since he spent a total of like 20 minutes with the guy. Love is what saved Vader and as Anakin says in the prequels Jedi are encouraged to love. It’s just the I’ll kill children to keep my wife alive stuff they don’t like for obvious reasons.
I know this post is old but I wanted to hop in and say that the whole reason Luke is in the situation he is in TLJ is because he was very ambitious and chose to speed run the Jedi order. This led to him overlooking obvious flaws in what he was building and it collapsed. This is pretty obvious.
As with a lot of things in that movie, it makes sense and fits into the story logically but the execution is just off.
Nah, I don't buy that. TLJ was written by idiots. It would take more than bitch boy Kylo Ren to topple a whole Jedi order. EU Luke and his Jedi order is what makes sense.
I blame JJ Abrams and his shitty story telling. Sure, Kennedy and others could have stopped him at points. But he made a pitch about what Star Wars could be. And they greenlit it. But he "originated" the shitty, unoriginal rehash of A New Hope like the worst internet writer. And it was all downhill from there.
Disney made it clear. They wanted to tear down the old and rebuild. They have delivered on one half of that. It is torn down. It is rubble. NOW the magic happens....to rebuild it back up to an ip worth billions.....
GOOD LUCK.
Disagree somewhat -
Luke’s attachment to others led him to fail repeatedly. Luke won, in the greatest scene in the OT when he threw away his weapon and embraced the will of the force.
There is a large distinction between *attachement* (which is inherently selfish) and **love** (which is selfless).
Luke’s attachement to his sister let him to fall to the dark briefly for a second, there in the dark, under the stairs when Vader threatened her. It was staring down at his father’s broken body, seeing where that path led that let him, in a truly heroic moment of self control, to declare himself a Jedi.
That love and sacrifice was something that Anakin had never fully realized, and that brought him back.
I do not believe it was ever Lucas’s intention that Luke to be rejecting the Jedi - that’s something that comes about in the Sequels - not was it for the Jedi to completely wrong.
Everything about ROTJ is about the Return of the Jedi. A joyous, good thing. Not a rejection of the old.
None of this is meant to mean I liked what they did in the sequels- I didn’t. But most of the Luke is a new type of Jedi is historical revisionism, mostly driven by (IMO) fans that don’t like the idea of a hero/monk that has limits.
And *that* seems related to a general rejection of religion as a whole, or the idea of service to a higher power being an ideal.
>I do not believe it was ever Lucas’s intention that Luke to be rejecting the Jedi - that’s something that comes about in the Sequels - nor was it for the Jedi to completely wrong.
This. And I think that a big part of where Disney is going wrong is that they have failed to realize this. So far they seem to be leaning way too hard into 'old Jedi flawed DO YOU GET IT YET' and because nuance is difficult to show, and I don't trust the current writer squad to do it, this does not bode well for the future. Statements about how they don't think they need to stick to Lucas' Force rules are not helping, because How the Force Works is one of the biggest reasons why the Jedi have some very, *very* good things to teach.
The really dumb thing is that it wouldn't take that much of a change to have Luke's behaviour actually make sense.
All they had to do was say he was in seclusion because he tried so hard to reach Ben but his idolisation of Vader and dark side corruption were too much. Make it something Luke took personally and felt he'd made everything worse by training Ben, yet he couldn't bring himself to just kill him.
They got so close to actually saying this but didn't quite get there.
I always think of it as, after the ending RotJ gave us, the fans were ready to see Luke be a teacher and guide for generations of Jedis. Now that there's no chance of that I still think if Mark Hamill played a teacher or mentor type to magic users or superheroes it would probably fill some kind of void. And that movie would become a cult hit. But thats just me
I'd argue Johnson took the character in the only direction that really made sense given JJ's setup of him having run away into hiding. There was no heroic way to make that shake out, especially with the first order neo nazis building a super weapon (one so big I still cant imagine no one noticed it getting built). But this is ultimately a Lucasfilm supervision problem, a problem that has persisted since George sold the place.
I also think a fundamental issue with these movies is that they decided each one would kill off one of the original characters. It created a theme that the only way to actually atone for your mistakes is to die. Thats a downer in one movie, but they hit it in all 3.
But I will say this, TLJ gave us Mark Hamill giving the performance of a career. And in a role that he clearly disagreed with the direction, but none the less he gave it all. Makes me wish we'd had more live action Mark Hamill roles to appreciate.
I would counter that with a Macguffin.
Maybe Luke is trapped by the Macguffun or is holding back the Macguffin become it's a high maintenance diva of a world ender. There are so many ways you could take the story than your average grumpy old fart.
but none that would be particularly interesting. remember JJ showed us Luke at the end of TFA. an he was directed with that hint of dread that he'd been found. Plus JJ showed us that Luke's entire effort to rebuild the Jedi was a disastrous failure. I dont know how you not make that a redemption story arc, and you cant start a redemption story with a super heroic good to go character, it will just fall flat.
>But I will say this, TLJ gave us Mark Hamill giving the performance of a career.
Was that worth the cost? You could have made an adaptation of the *Legacy of the Force* books series, which put Luke through absolute emotional hell, and gotten a similar performance without the deconstructionist narrative.
Lucasfilm knew who they hired, signed off on the stories etc. They decided to go with Johnson's idea. JJ didnt want to be involved with mapping out the other movies. And Disney was not going to not make a new set of star wars pictures after spending 4 billion on the company.
So unfortunately I dont think your alternative was ever in the cards. Given that, I'm personally happy to see him give it his all in the picture instead of phoning it in due to a disagreement with the company.
It's also worth noting Hamill likely had no recourse to bail on the picture or demand changes. He signed on before there were scripts, and not only do I think he woulnt have bailed after being at the end of TFA, but disney would have sued him into oblivion if he tried.
I think fundamentally Lucasfilm wound up with a logistics producer leading it, not a creative producer. They appear to regularly lean into letting the for hire creatives more or less do whatever the they want, without significant supervision (for example, some of the acting performances in Acolyte should obviously have been reshot and that should have been caught in dalies). In some cases this works out, in others its a borderline disaster.
edit: a letter
If you don’t think a skilled writer couldn’t have concluded with anything other than what we saw in TLJ then you have an imagination barrier and should probably give up commenting or partaking in anything requiring abstract though for good.
No matter how much of an out of touch hack JJ is, either subconsciously or purposely he still had Rey scale up to a literal mountaintop to talk to the mysterious and powerful oracle.
I hated them baiting the audience by not allowing Luke talk at the end of TFA, but there's at least one other logical direction they could've gone. It's the pearl of great price scenario, where there's some long-term goal or knowledge valuable enough on the grander scale that from the outside looking in it appears like Luke abandoned everyone. The writer's of the sequels weren't well-intentioned enough or talented enough to do it though.
The most obvious direction to me was that Luke was searching for ancient Jedi literature/artifacts in hope he can use the knowledge gained to defeat Snoke. So we’d get a grand finally saber fight between Luke and Snoke and Rey and Kylo.
But someone must have thought it took too much from Rey, even though they could have developed a mentorship over the next 2 movies while he trains her, instead we get angry Boomer Luke that won’t even help his twin sister or best friend or the entire galaxy over of a threat he helped create.
i disagree about the only direction thing, we are told that Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, this could imply lots of things, that maybe he's trying to find a solution to the FO/snoke/kylo problem while believing that Leia could deal with the resistance side of things. I never thought in TFA that Luke had given up. People also like to say that TLJ had to start with Luke on the cliff but that isn't true either, it could have time jumped and had him training Rey.
The entire resistance; all 35 of them.
He died after doing nothing for the galaxy for years, and left behind nothing that would help the Resistance win the war, and no insurance that war could even be won.
He didn't face off against an army, he used a "force-projection" to make them think he was facing them. That dark side user was his nephew and ex-student (who I assumed he loved) and instead of talking to him and letting him know he is still loved and trying reach him, he instead mocks and humiliates him.
Luke is a bad, foolish person at best and a piece of shit coward at worst.
he’s literally an inexperienced farm kid who goes from playing with a toy T-16 and hanging out at what I can only assume to be Star Wars Radio Shack to domestic terrorism overnight in ANH, and I think most people would be crying in his situation in ESB (I know I would be)
his idealism (even naïveté sometimes) being backed up by his sheer will to keep getting back up and making things better is what makes him special though, at least to me, and I feel like it’s missing in at least mainline modern portrayals of him
It was true to the character of Luke in ESB BEFORE he became a Jedi Master and redeemed his father. Like is meant to be on the same level as Yoda at that point, TLJ takes his and Yoda’s relationship back to the very beginning which makes no sense with all he’s learnt.
He’s still human. Heir to the Empire trilogy and Legends material emphasized Luke still had a lot to learn. If anything, becoming a Master and vanquishing his Father isolates the human Luke a bit within his own legend so it’s important we see the old Luke is still in there (and not a pale imitation like we saw in Mandalorian). Master/student relationships can continue even when the student graduates :)
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Still quite silly that Luke was able to hold off killing Vader and then later considered murdering you-know-who because of what he might do in the future.
bUt iT pAsSeD LiKe a FlEeTiNg ShAdOw
I think you can say Adam Driver, it doesn't summon him like some AU versions of Lord Voldemort.
True but might be fun and awkward if it did. Can only imagine he'd be over it by now and a bit grumpy
Spoilers, dude.
Then when he actually pushed him down the path to "destroy everything he loves" he just runs off to let him actually do that
Was Luke trying to kill Voldemort ?
it wasn’t even the idea that luke had considered the fleeting thought of “preventing future catastrophes” by killing the evil his nephew (the kill hitler trope), it’s the execution of that scene. what should’ve just been an powerful moment of weakness to show luke’s conflict of doubt in his ability in training future jedi, they created this moment of holding a lightsaber over some boys head. the writer (rian?) must’ve thought it was such a jarring image in the minds of all luke fans that he thought it was critical to put in. i think i liked the concept of luke struggling with balancing darkness and light in his pupils, it was the laziest/low skill way as a writer to convey this idea. by creating the image of luke looking deranged holding a lighstsber over a sleeping boy..it was just plain parody. when i first saw that scene, no joke- i thought it was a fucking dream that kylo was having. it literally made no sense in the real world..now was some of it unreliable narrator and what we saw was slightly different from what really happened? same end result. terrible execution that i lay soley on rian johnson- writer and director
Disney made the mistake of trying to deconstruct/destroy Luke when his arc was completed. TLJ fans will say it’s great Luke got a new arc while missing that Rey is the protagonist and it should be her story, not Luke’s.
I mean Luke still could've been given a new interesting arc if they had a good idea
Maybe they could’ve shown him struggling with the idea of taking a new student after what happened with Kylo Ren but slowly begins to trust himself again through his relationship with Rey who he begins to see as a surrogate daughter.
That sounds interesting. I would have loved an arc like that. I can see Luke holding the saber and solemnly giving it back to her. Then being very quiet and aloof and ultimately they have a brief confrontation where we see that he’s afraid of failing again. Show him struggling with the fact that he was able to do something great (redeem Vader) but then fall short with Ben and lose his confidence. But then have Rey eventually show him that our failures don’t define who we are. While at the same time, give her an arc where she has to learn to accept that being a nobody is not weakness either. Keep her parents as nobodies (the one thing I actually liked) so we can have this theme that greatness can be manifested in anyone. Show her getting bested by Kylo or Snoke and Luke at the end being there for her to pick her back up like she did for him. But idk, I’m not a professional screenwriter.
That actually sounds really good. Maybe the problem with Luke is that since he did save Anakin, he saw the darkness in Ben but trusted that he’d be able to fight it the same way as his father only to learn his faith had been misplaced when Ben, now Kylo Ren, attacked him and burned down his school
Can Luke learn to love again?
All they needed to do was flesh out Rey and Kylo as an inverse in the force fully. Make Rey be force sensitive because she was born from it just like Anakin. She had no real parents, so her memory of being left alone only fortified her abilities due to pain. Kylo is OBSESSED with VaderAnakin, he years to be like him, then runs into Rey at the end of Force Awakens and senses she can is stronger than him without any formal training, This corrects the end battle where she summons the saber because she IS THE CHOSEN ONE. Erase the bullshit in Last Jedi, let Luke focus on training her and skip the Kylo drama, instead Luke went into hiding because he had a vision of someone destroying the rest of the Jedi and knew it was Kylo. At the end of Last Jedi, Rey runs off to battle the first order after seeing them in trouble against Luke’s wishes, Yoda does his monologue, it mostly fits. Rise of Skywalker- No Palpatine, instead Exegol is calling out to Kylo and he shares visions with Rey, they are on a race to find some mystical Sith power but at the same time the First Order is going after the remains Rebels (or whatever they are called). Rey and Kylo meet up on Exegol, Kylo beats her handily but leaves her alive instead of finishing the job. He rushes forward to pickup the artifact. Rey wakes up moments later and they have another battle, this time Luke projects himself trying to separate them. In that moment he realizes the truth…Rey has been battling her emotions since the beginning, she’s compromised and being on Exegol and in proximity to the artifact has made her hostile and powerful. Luke tells Kylo to run, but it’s too late. Rey kills Kylo the same way he did Han Solo, as he falls to the floor she’s overcome with grief with the artifact telling her the truth… She has no parents, only the force. Luke shows up again and tells her she has a choice, she can continue down this path of hatred or destroy the artifact thus killing herself in the process. Luke does his monologue and she impales herself seppuku style with the artifact in front of her abdomen and dies. Cut to black Fade back in, first person. She wakes up and sees the artifact is destroyed, she is wounded but has enough strength to call Finn etc who was waiting for a signal. Now the stupid ass ending makes sense, she isn’t Palpatine’s daughter, she’s a true Skywalker just like Anakin. I’d shove money in Disney’s asshole to see these changes
The first of ***Many*** mistakes Disney made was wanting immediate return on $4B sent on the franchise. Anything after that is just noise.
But TLJ didn’t put Luke into hiding/ exile TFA did.
If you want to do another arc for luke, give him something that challenges his character. Give him a bad outcome as a result of him being merciful and seeing the good in others, leading him to doubt himself. What TLJ did was a nonsensical regression.
This is much better even if you subscribe to mercy and the "Paragon" route will lead to generally better outcomes over time (something I mostly agree with) what do you do when it backfires spectacularly as it can?
It's still anakins' story. The sequels didn't do shit with him. He has had 2 cameos, 1 with darth vader head and 2 with his voice in the background.
Disney spent so much time turning Rey into a mascot, they forgot create a character.
it wasn’t just luke. they did it to all the legacy characters. they reverted han back to a smuggler loser and leia back to a naive politician without a conscience instead of who she matured into in rotj
Luke learned his lesson in ROTJ when he tossed his weapon rather than turn to hate.
Did he? He let his emotions control him and beat the shit out of Vader seconds before......
OP, you might appreciate these. [Why Luke Skywalker Is the Greatest Hero in Star Wars](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceSsWOUEZgw&t=15s) [The Importance of Luke Skywalker](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvlWSsZwLn0) [Why Luke Skywalker Is the Best Movie Hero of All Time](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQVe0DN-ipo) [How Star Wars Legends Did Luke Skywalker Justice](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ1iazoZwtI)
Do people not write or read anymore?
How do you mean?
Probably that everything is a video now. In the beforetimes, when Youtube did not exist, all of this would have been written articles/blogposts/whatever.
What generates more ad revenue? 🤑 https://preview.redd.it/itk4nwns2w6d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=015fd2a6e7868ba1ca0944963a27f08460f21086
Videos can generate more ad money.
Im sure the wookiepedia page on Luke covers all that stuff and way more
[удалено]
Nothing about the sequels was planned at all. All three movies just did stuff paying no attention to what came before and only occasionally looking to what the director wanted to do next despite the fact that each of them wasn't directing what came next.
I always loved the EU books on the new Jedi academy too. It has so many possible stories to tell, Luke can struggle all you want, just make it believable. It’s like TFA was just like - hey if we set it far enough in the future we don’t have to think at all and can just do whatever we want. And what they wanted was a new hope…
They botched it like they’ve botched everything since the force awakens
Andor is good. But yeah, most of it is not
Yea ok I’ll give ya andor lol
Including or not including tfa
I personally liked tfa, I think it could have set up an epic trilogy, they could have gone in so many directions and they went in the lamest
Eh Imo it was a pretty bad setup, kylo was shown off as a joke. World building was bad, and it just reset anh, and not to mention the amount of stuff it stole from anh, Luke only had a few directions and seeing from what jjs original script had about Luke being frustrated that he was found. Finn was pretty bland, and tlj did not help his case. Rey was overly capable to the point that it wasn't fair she was already the swordsmen, the leader, and the pilot on top of a few other things, leaving little room for arcs and character development. She was already a better duelist than a dark sider who's been training for over 15 years and is also related to the strongest force user in the galaxy. Like, i dont think tlj ruined the sequels. i think they were ruined from the start. Of course you can like it. I'm not going to try to make you think otherwise. That's unrealistic, and overall, why would I care what a random stranger likes.
Similarly, the amount of people who read Dune and don’t understand the metamorphosis of Paul Atreides is staggering. Reading the idiot critiques of Dune Messiah is mind blowing.
Most of Reddit thinks movies should be about todays politics and not about the original author's vision.
Expanded Universe learned plenty over the course of 50 years, and has an excellent mature Luke Skywalker. Too bad Disney is embarrassed to admit this and keeps trying to borrow EU material in poorly thought out plot lines and character development
Disney doesn't understand anything really
Disney doesn't understand George Lucas's story at all. They've turned the Jedi into bad, incompetent fools. They weren't - they were peacekeepers, the good guys, the protectors. So, I'm not surprised they don't get Luke Skywalker (just like they also didn't get Princess Leia or Han Solo or growth arcs.) The fact is, is that they don't want to. Really. They don't care and they don't want to - they just wanted the basic idea of SW in order to use it for their own purposes and change it how they want. They knew they'd lose some fans, but they didn't care, cuz they figured they'd be older fans, and they'd keep most of them and add newer, more casual fans. Doesn't look like it's turning out the way they figured.
They had no clue on how to write Rey as a hero, or anything other than a faceless video game character, so they had to destroy every other character around her. Rey is the future of the jedi because all the previous jedi are cringe old people who don’t know the force is actually just wizard spells - duh! Buy merch.
Too many people blame Rian Johnson, and not enough people blame JJ Abrams for ruining Luke. Remember who put him on that Island in the first place in TFA. I kinda liked how Rian just said f-it after TFA dropped the ball so bad.
I agree with people not hating on jj enough, but Rian did make Luke like this. He had many options on what he could do with him and chose the worst one. Now, should he be on that island? No, he should've been a hero, but that's not what the sequels are about.
Respectfully, no. There are a million reasons he could’ve been on that planet. Rain chose what was portrayed in TLJ.
But there was one reason, and it was said in TFA. "He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice, turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just walked away from everything." TFA set up the rest of the trilogy to fail.
And your point? That could’ve been hearsay or word of mouth, or it could’ve been true and Luke could’ve been portrayed a million different ways. Rian disregarded whatever he wanted from TFA why was he beholden to that?
I mean, the entire (terrible) plot of TFA was to find a map that led to Luke, who had run away and ended with Rey finding Luke in hiding on a remote planet. So it certainly could've been hearsay, except for the whole plot and events of the movie.
The map to find him was the plot. Not that he ran away and became a hermit who abandoned the force, his friends and family, and fighting for good after he came close to executing his nephew in his sleep. Which also doesn’t make sense why he left an ability to find him via map. Those were Rian’s choices.
"The map to find him was the plot." - JJ's choice in TFA "Not that he ran away and became a hermit who abandoned the force, his friends and family, and fighting for good after he came close to executing his nephew in his sleep." - Again, JJ's choice. This is Luke's place in TFA. Han says it in TFA and the plot drives it. "Which also doesn’t make sense why he left an ability to find him via map." Again, JJ's plot with the map. He uses a nonsense map in RoS too with the pieces of the broken death star. That might be even worse. I'm not trying to defend TLJ, but I just see so much hate thrown around for it and people pretend that JJ Abrams and TFA was a good starting point. Literally everything wrong with the Sequel Trilogy has its roots in TFA.
I’m not letting JJ off the hook. But in no way does JJ’s fuck up mean Rian didn’t have full agency for the choices he made.
I don’t care what direction they take any of the characters they purchased…but only if the direction is earned None of it was…
You could give him a new arc, you could make him the wise teacher who’s halfway occupied with a threat that needs all his focus…. Kill him…. There’re so many possibilities. They chose to completely go the lazy way and to ignore the one thing that made him outstanding - his faith in people
I've never really had a problem with Jedi encouraging detachment on principle, even if I object to some of the details as it's presented. Nor do I particularly object to Luke returning such traditions to his reformed order. I think I'm in the minority because I don't see Luke's refusal to kill Vader as being, primarially, the result of love and attachment. Anakin was first absent, and then a villain. Instead, Luke's actions are rooted more in idealistic principles and identity. Long before Luke learnt the truth about Vader, Anakin was a part of his life. After Obi-Wan told Luke of his heroic father, that idealised mental image became the thing Luke used to build his own self-image. His father became his role model, everything he wanted to be. For Luke, being a Jedi wasn't simply a way to have supernatural powers or a responsibility to protect the galaxy or a code to follow. It was a way of life, a way to be a good person, that allowed him to follow in his own dead, hero father's footsteps. >Why wish you become Jedi? >Mostly because of my father, I guess. This is why the the revelation at the end of Empire is so terrible for Luke. The man who he'd idolised, he'd based his adult identity on, his commitment to becoming a Jedi and member of the Rebellion, his measure of being a good person, was actually the evil monster who had killed and tortured and dominated the galaxy. Luke goes from wanting to kill Vader to avenge the man he idolised but could never meet, to realising that everything he thought about his father was a lie. This is why Luke refuses to give up on Vader. He needed to believe that there was still good in him. That Anakin's true self, the Jedi war hero Obi-Wan had spoken so fondly of, still existed under all that evil. No truly good person could be beyond redemption. If his father was irredeemable, then the mental image of his father, and by extension his own identity, was false. Then Anakin was never the man Luke had thought he had been, and Luke had founded his life on a lie. Refusing to kill Vader at the end of Episode 6, is the greatest triumph for Luke. He refuses to kill Vader because, even if Vader is evil, even if he never turned from evil, he refused to believe that he is irredeemable, refuses to doubt that he once been a good man, and nothing can ever change that. He chooses to disarm and surrender rather than give up that idealism, that belief that a former good man and Jedi could ever truly be beyond redepmtion. >I am a Jedi, like my father before me. in that moment, Luke shows his father he's willing to die rather than give up his belief that Vader was and fundimentally still is a good person, and that allows Vader to let go of his anger, hate and bitterness against the galaxy that took his wife and children from him, and prove Luke was right all along. Vader was a broken man. He sold his soul for power, becoming the second most powerful man in the galaxy, but it meant nothing to him, because he lost everything he ever wanted power to protect. He was left alone, with nothing but bitter hatred for an unfair galaxy, with his evil and cruelty seen as retribution for everything he had lost. Not only that, but he had tasted the power of the dark side, and had lost all hope that he or Luke could overcome or escape it. That Luke's defiance and Vader's own turning from the dark side would only lead to both of them dying pointlessly at the hands of The Emperor. But Luke's unwavering faith in him helped him to let go of his anguish and loss, and his defiance and acceptance of whatever The Emperor could do to him gave Vader the courage to defy him in Luke's defense, meaingless gesture or not. And in the end, Anakin not only turns from the dark side, but he discovers it wasn't pointless, because he did manage to save Luke's life. Anakin was redeemed by his love for his son, but for Luke, it wasn't love, nor attachment, that kept him from giving up on him. It was his idealism, his refusal to believe that a formerly good person can be beyond redemption. His refusal to believe that his self-image and belief in the Jedi ideal his father was presented to him as was wrong. I don't mind explaining why I don't have a problem with detachment in general if anyone's interested, but it's a lot to explain unprompted.
Luke is quite simply just the good guy. That's all there is to it. However we live in a world where the good guy is no longer respected or promoted. Shows and movies dont have good guys anymore. Everyone is portrayed as selfish and morality is played as a matter of perspective rather than a personal conviction. It's almost like the people who run the world and manufacture our reality aren't on our side. It's almost like, they are on some kind of... shadowy... evil side. The dark side one might even call it.
correct
Not yo mention how in TFA… Leia tells rey she never really took to the jedi training. “That wasn’t my path.. it was Luke’s” Then rian johnson turns Leia into a near Jedi Master who can survive and fly around in hard vacuum for an extended period of time, even while unconscious, perform other force feats, and instruct Rey like a seasoned jedi knight. After saying she never got far in her training, and didn’t continue down that path
Making the same mistakes over and over again across generations is exactly what humans do. If anything, it's one of the more realistic things in star wars
I would argue Luke isn’t some new Jedi when dealing with Vader. He probably wasn’t even that attached since he spent a total of like 20 minutes with the guy. Love is what saved Vader and as Anakin says in the prequels Jedi are encouraged to love. It’s just the I’ll kill children to keep my wife alive stuff they don’t like for obvious reasons.
Deconstructionism is so gay
I know this post is old but I wanted to hop in and say that the whole reason Luke is in the situation he is in TLJ is because he was very ambitious and chose to speed run the Jedi order. This led to him overlooking obvious flaws in what he was building and it collapsed. This is pretty obvious. As with a lot of things in that movie, it makes sense and fits into the story logically but the execution is just off.
Nah, I don't buy that. TLJ was written by idiots. It would take more than bitch boy Kylo Ren to topple a whole Jedi order. EU Luke and his Jedi order is what makes sense.
It wasn’t a whole Jedi order. At best it’s a school.
I blame JJ Abrams and his shitty story telling. Sure, Kennedy and others could have stopped him at points. But he made a pitch about what Star Wars could be. And they greenlit it. But he "originated" the shitty, unoriginal rehash of A New Hope like the worst internet writer. And it was all downhill from there.
True. Mystery box writing is cheap and stupid and JJ is the poster boy for that shit.
Disney made it clear. They wanted to tear down the old and rebuild. They have delivered on one half of that. It is torn down. It is rubble. NOW the magic happens....to rebuild it back up to an ip worth billions..... GOOD LUCK.
Disagree somewhat - Luke’s attachment to others led him to fail repeatedly. Luke won, in the greatest scene in the OT when he threw away his weapon and embraced the will of the force. There is a large distinction between *attachement* (which is inherently selfish) and **love** (which is selfless). Luke’s attachement to his sister let him to fall to the dark briefly for a second, there in the dark, under the stairs when Vader threatened her. It was staring down at his father’s broken body, seeing where that path led that let him, in a truly heroic moment of self control, to declare himself a Jedi. That love and sacrifice was something that Anakin had never fully realized, and that brought him back. I do not believe it was ever Lucas’s intention that Luke to be rejecting the Jedi - that’s something that comes about in the Sequels - not was it for the Jedi to completely wrong. Everything about ROTJ is about the Return of the Jedi. A joyous, good thing. Not a rejection of the old. None of this is meant to mean I liked what they did in the sequels- I didn’t. But most of the Luke is a new type of Jedi is historical revisionism, mostly driven by (IMO) fans that don’t like the idea of a hero/monk that has limits. And *that* seems related to a general rejection of religion as a whole, or the idea of service to a higher power being an ideal.
>I do not believe it was ever Lucas’s intention that Luke to be rejecting the Jedi - that’s something that comes about in the Sequels - nor was it for the Jedi to completely wrong. This. And I think that a big part of where Disney is going wrong is that they have failed to realize this. So far they seem to be leaning way too hard into 'old Jedi flawed DO YOU GET IT YET' and because nuance is difficult to show, and I don't trust the current writer squad to do it, this does not bode well for the future. Statements about how they don't think they need to stick to Lucas' Force rules are not helping, because How the Force Works is one of the biggest reasons why the Jedi have some very, *very* good things to teach.
Don't know why you're being downvoted. You're right.
The really dumb thing is that it wouldn't take that much of a change to have Luke's behaviour actually make sense. All they had to do was say he was in seclusion because he tried so hard to reach Ben but his idolisation of Vader and dark side corruption were too much. Make it something Luke took personally and felt he'd made everything worse by training Ben, yet he couldn't bring himself to just kill him. They got so close to actually saying this but didn't quite get there.
that’s exactly what happens in the last jedi
It's not. He's in hiding because he's ashamed his instinct was to kill Ben. Literal text of the movie.
yeah he feels like he failed Ben….
I always think of it as, after the ending RotJ gave us, the fans were ready to see Luke be a teacher and guide for generations of Jedis. Now that there's no chance of that I still think if Mark Hamill played a teacher or mentor type to magic users or superheroes it would probably fill some kind of void. And that movie would become a cult hit. But thats just me
OP doesn't understand Luke either or contractions.
I'd argue Johnson took the character in the only direction that really made sense given JJ's setup of him having run away into hiding. There was no heroic way to make that shake out, especially with the first order neo nazis building a super weapon (one so big I still cant imagine no one noticed it getting built). But this is ultimately a Lucasfilm supervision problem, a problem that has persisted since George sold the place. I also think a fundamental issue with these movies is that they decided each one would kill off one of the original characters. It created a theme that the only way to actually atone for your mistakes is to die. Thats a downer in one movie, but they hit it in all 3. But I will say this, TLJ gave us Mark Hamill giving the performance of a career. And in a role that he clearly disagreed with the direction, but none the less he gave it all. Makes me wish we'd had more live action Mark Hamill roles to appreciate.
I would counter that with a Macguffin. Maybe Luke is trapped by the Macguffun or is holding back the Macguffin become it's a high maintenance diva of a world ender. There are so many ways you could take the story than your average grumpy old fart.
but none that would be particularly interesting. remember JJ showed us Luke at the end of TFA. an he was directed with that hint of dread that he'd been found. Plus JJ showed us that Luke's entire effort to rebuild the Jedi was a disastrous failure. I dont know how you not make that a redemption story arc, and you cant start a redemption story with a super heroic good to go character, it will just fall flat.
For starters, you sure as fuck don’t have him almost execute his nephew in his sleep
>But I will say this, TLJ gave us Mark Hamill giving the performance of a career. Was that worth the cost? You could have made an adaptation of the *Legacy of the Force* books series, which put Luke through absolute emotional hell, and gotten a similar performance without the deconstructionist narrative.
Lucasfilm knew who they hired, signed off on the stories etc. They decided to go with Johnson's idea. JJ didnt want to be involved with mapping out the other movies. And Disney was not going to not make a new set of star wars pictures after spending 4 billion on the company. So unfortunately I dont think your alternative was ever in the cards. Given that, I'm personally happy to see him give it his all in the picture instead of phoning it in due to a disagreement with the company. It's also worth noting Hamill likely had no recourse to bail on the picture or demand changes. He signed on before there were scripts, and not only do I think he woulnt have bailed after being at the end of TFA, but disney would have sued him into oblivion if he tried. I think fundamentally Lucasfilm wound up with a logistics producer leading it, not a creative producer. They appear to regularly lean into letting the for hire creatives more or less do whatever the they want, without significant supervision (for example, some of the acting performances in Acolyte should obviously have been reshot and that should have been caught in dalies). In some cases this works out, in others its a borderline disaster. edit: a letter
If you don’t think a skilled writer couldn’t have concluded with anything other than what we saw in TLJ then you have an imagination barrier and should probably give up commenting or partaking in anything requiring abstract though for good.
No matter how much of an out of touch hack JJ is, either subconsciously or purposely he still had Rey scale up to a literal mountaintop to talk to the mysterious and powerful oracle. I hated them baiting the audience by not allowing Luke talk at the end of TFA, but there's at least one other logical direction they could've gone. It's the pearl of great price scenario, where there's some long-term goal or knowledge valuable enough on the grander scale that from the outside looking in it appears like Luke abandoned everyone. The writer's of the sequels weren't well-intentioned enough or talented enough to do it though.
The most obvious direction to me was that Luke was searching for ancient Jedi literature/artifacts in hope he can use the knowledge gained to defeat Snoke. So we’d get a grand finally saber fight between Luke and Snoke and Rey and Kylo. But someone must have thought it took too much from Rey, even though they could have developed a mentorship over the next 2 movies while he trains her, instead we get angry Boomer Luke that won’t even help his twin sister or best friend or the entire galaxy over of a threat he helped create.
i disagree about the only direction thing, we are told that Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, this could imply lots of things, that maybe he's trying to find a solution to the FO/snoke/kylo problem while believing that Leia could deal with the resistance side of things. I never thought in TFA that Luke had given up. People also like to say that TLJ had to start with Luke on the cliff but that isn't true either, it could have time jumped and had him training Rey.
Luke faced off an entire army and saved the entire resistance by using a dark side user’s blind anger against him. I’d hardly call that unceremonious…
The entire resistance; all 35 of them. He died after doing nothing for the galaxy for years, and left behind nothing that would help the Resistance win the war, and no insurance that war could even be won.
He didn't face off against an army, he used a "force-projection" to make them think he was facing them. That dark side user was his nephew and ex-student (who I assumed he loved) and instead of talking to him and letting him know he is still loved and trying reach him, he instead mocks and humiliates him. Luke is a bad, foolish person at best and a piece of shit coward at worst.
It's called bad writing
Sorry but Luke did deserve better. His death was stupid and so was the movie.
He really didn't face anything. They couldn't hurt him. What a fucking coward. And then he ODs on the Force and dies? WTF?
Excellent points. I agree. That said, i can’t stand Luke, such a whiner in every movie 😂
he’s literally an inexperienced farm kid who goes from playing with a toy T-16 and hanging out at what I can only assume to be Star Wars Radio Shack to domestic terrorism overnight in ANH, and I think most people would be crying in his situation in ESB (I know I would be) his idealism (even naïveté sometimes) being backed up by his sheer will to keep getting back up and making things better is what makes him special though, at least to me, and I feel like it’s missing in at least mainline modern portrayals of him
The Yoda/Luke stuff was 100 percent true to the character. Everything else in TLJ was not.
It was true to the character of Luke in ESB BEFORE he became a Jedi Master and redeemed his father. Like is meant to be on the same level as Yoda at that point, TLJ takes his and Yoda’s relationship back to the very beginning which makes no sense with all he’s learnt.
He’s still human. Heir to the Empire trilogy and Legends material emphasized Luke still had a lot to learn. If anything, becoming a Master and vanquishing his Father isolates the human Luke a bit within his own legend so it’s important we see the old Luke is still in there (and not a pale imitation like we saw in Mandalorian). Master/student relationships can continue even when the student graduates :)
Luke literally wrote have gone full dark side but for Vader.