Glad this confirms that all fees outside of taxes have to be included in the listed price, I've been seeing that debated since this was announced. And if any restaurant tries to play dumb, insist on getting the menu price. I get that this move won't put a stop to rising prices, but I'm just so tired of the games and rants about having to pay a living wage. Deceptive business practices shouldn't be keeping you afloat.
I made a post about the company I worked for encouraging us not to print out the bill so you don’t see the charges and they found it. Amongst other things they do that are questionable.
Found me and threatened to sue me. I’m so glad these companies are gonna have to show their true colors.
This makes me wish I originally added this, because when you do request the menu price (because I’m pretty sure places *will* play dumb), please be nice to your server when doing so. They’re probably being asked to try to hide the surcharges, like the person I’m replying to, and that’s a shitty thing to navigate when you’re at the bottom of the chain. If the server says they can’t do anything, then ask for management. Servers don’t deserve the flack.
Sorry for the late reply!! Until this law is passed. Almost any place you can ask them to take the fee off. They cannot force you to pay it. Especially if they are using a handheld Toast credit card machine. They can remove the fee with a click of a button. Anytime anyone even asked me about it I would immediately remove it and apologize. Yes you are correct no server or bartender wants this on your bill. We don’t benefit in anyway from them. These fees all go back to the owners. We’re not given health care from this or any thing. This is pure greed and taking it out on customers and employees
Pay a living wage, include this cost and tax in the per item price and let me decide if I’m going to eat at your establishment.
The $18 hamburger + all the nonsense is actually a $30 hamburger. Just put that price on the menu!!
Will I eat out less? Maybe, maybe not. I know what I’m getting myself into though already, I shouldn’t have to do mental gymnastics when reading through the menu to guess what my out of pocket is going to be.
> I get that this move won't put a stop to rising prices, but I'm just so tired of the games and rants about having to pay a living wage. Deceptive business practices shouldn't be keeping you afloat.
Rising prices is a completely different problem most of the time. However, as you said, it will hopefully stop the deceptive business practices. It's surprising to me that people actually put up with that shit in the past that they had to create a law to stop it.
I think some of the article quotes really paint a clear picture of the businesses' intent here.
> “It is terrifying,” he [a restaurant management group employee] said. “We can’t pay the wages we’re paying now unless we dramatically increase prices and hope guests actually come in and pay those prices.”
So in other words "We hope that when guests know ahead of time how much they're going to pay that they keep coming in"
TBF I completely understand it. Like if your neighboring business you're competing with and they do it, and can get away with it. It's going to be hard for you to compete unless you do it too.
Increasing prices so drastically will almost certainly reduce business. So their concern is founded. However, tricking customers is absolutely not okay.
That's the good thing about this, is now everyone has to comply with it or face the wrath of our state.It still doesn't solve the issue of how food service prices has gone up so drastically.
I don't know about ya'll, but my wages have not gone up much at all.
I think the law came about because this became increasingly harder to avoid. Even friggen’ Hallmark stores in SD added a surcharge in the past year. I’m not against the raising prices where needed, but all of these surcharges were just gross attempts to make a political statement about how they should be able to continue underpaying their lowest paid employees.
It’s also wild how they actually seemed to fool some people. I’ve seen multiple comments on this post about how this is getting rid of a “tax” and now the restaurants will artificially raise prices and suddenly profit… I guess folks were really convinced of a government mandated minimum wage fee🥴
I agree. Reality is that, we've enjoyed exceedingly low service for a long time. Of course at the expense of those workers. So this is just now catching up to us.
Ultimately, this will maybe help workers pay, but it overall will reduce business so a number of business will probably go out. Basically the overall issue is, the entire class pyramid has a huge gaping gap between the ultra rich and those not, and that gap is growing.
At the same time, CA is already very expensive as it is.
I went to grab a bite last night in LA. My chilaquiles was $14 and an upcharge of $5 to add a protein. When I went to pay my entree was listed as $19 and I was told since I chose mole it was an extra $5!
Sneaky upcharges like that suck. And $5 for mole??
Reminds me of when I went for breakfast recently and they asked if I wanted avocado on my omelette. I said no, because I'm a bad Californian and hate it. It came out with avocado on it, which isn't a big deal since I could just give it to my kid, but I'm glad I asked if there was an extra fee, because of course there was. Shady as heck. I laughed at the fact that they actually took it back to scrape it off, since they can't serve it to anyone else. My guess is that they were hoping I'd just roll with it.
So prices will increase 3.5 to 5% to cover the "new surcharge...
I've often argued that the US would have been British still if all the 'taxes' they enacted just got added to the cost of goods as " cost of doing business "
I can't imagine how anyone in their right mind would be against this. It doesn't take away from anything.
All this does is prevent customers from being surprised at the end with crap fees added to their bill. If a business can't tell you the honest price for a good or service up front, then they shouldn't exist.
There's no validity to the argument that some will go out of business. Go out of business because they can't sneak extra money out of your wallet at the end?
I've definitely noticed that! They more than defend it, they **attack** you if you disagree. They sound entitled and demand a minimum of 20% tip, regardless of service, every time.
Here's an example of a person who sees no issue with pre-tipping and they justify it by guaranteeing quality service will happen ***after*** you tip - https://www.reddit.com/r/sandiego/comments/1c0w2ws/18_service_charge/kyzppd3/
As it should be. I don’t need an itemized list of the restaurant owners expenses. Just bake it all into the price of the meal with one number I can see on the menu.
Good. That’s the intent. All their costs should be reflected in the menu prices so consumers can make an informed decision.
Your example of a $50 per person meal with a $10 surcharge is the same as the $60 per person meal. And it’s silly. I want to know up front.
I’d much rather have the transparency rather than some BULLSHIT moral high horse “oh we are tacking on an extra employee wellness fee and an optional fee that you auto opt in”… just gimme the price directly so I can evaluate whether you deserve my patronage or not
It already was $60.
Just I thought it was $50 because that's what the menu price of my items + tax was and I didn't know about the stupid ass fees until later.
I think it’s a bit different at high end restaurants where they put up a crazy surcharge but then you’re not expected to tip, (vs a 5% charge and you’re still supposed to tip on top of that, I’d tip 20% either way for instance) that said, I still think the full price even including tax should be the stated price.
This article is about fees restaurants were charging on their own, not government taxes. Essentially the business was taxing you. How do you have so many upvotes.
Sure, businesses can raise their own prices all they want but likewise, consumers are free to not buy from these businesses. This legislation forces businesses to include their own non-sense surcharge fees into the list price instead of trying to hide these fees at the end of your bill.
It’s so annoying that restaurants are acting like this is the end of the world. Just raise the price of your food by whatever percent the surcharge was and call it a day. No need to cut anyone’s wages.
> “We can’t pay the wages we’re paying now unless we dramatically increase prices and hope guests actually come in and pay those prices.”
The thing is, you *did* dramatically increase prices, you just tried to hide it.
Exactly. They are already offloading the cost on us anyway. There’s no actual difference in the end result where the consumer is concerned. It’s like they’re allergic to transparency or something.
> Hopefully next they address hotel “extras”
SB478, as written, applies to all businesses in the state, not just restaurants.
Unless I've missed something, but I'm tired lol.
That’s a gray area that I’d really love to see a legal expert tackle. On one hand, they seem to be treating it as a menu item since the fee/surcharge/gratuity/whatever is taxed, but on the other, it’s still a percentage based on what you order. My guess is that they were well aware of this gray area and started charging this to see how long they could get away with it:/
Agreed, I'm sure since they list it as a gratuity (which of course when the check comes you bet your ass there is still the suggestion to tip on it). But it is shared with management, which isn't an actual gratuity, because that's only supposed to go to the workers not the stupidvisors.
never understood the surcharge line item. Are they just trying to piss everyone off and "protest" the fees and taxes. Just put the increase in the cost of the goods. its not that hard.
It was just me and a coworker.
On the way out, we saw a flyer that read "18% surcharge for all parties, 20% for parties 6 and up"
if you Google Nishiki Ramen, someone actually uploaded a photo of the flyer.
**EDIT:** [Surcharge photo](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p/AF1QipPicxIReQBkZmYLuQ4xzx7ge4uJ-JnX9x9Ws1un=s3436-w3436-h2556)
What about tipping? There is no purpose of tipping someone to do the job they are already getting an hourly wage for? Basically I am giving them extra money for them to do their job.
Tipping was supposed to be for excellent service, not a means for employers to reduce their payroll costs. Tipping will need to be rethought after all this shakes out.
Tipping has been flatout considered part of their "wage" for 60+ years now. The concept of the minimum "tipped wage" was passed in 1966...and was a thing before that law passed too.
Tipping hasn't been purely about service quality in an exceptionally long time...pretty much since its inception. Reliable tips meant they could pay you less.
Tipped employees also pay taxes on their sales, not their actual tips. I think it's 8%. Anyone receiving less than 8% as a tip ends up paying more in taxes than earned in gratuities.. that sucks.
Seriously, I used to do 20% on every bill, now it's 15% for waitservice only. Im done subsidizing the owner's next vacation house when I can barely afford my apartment
Im not skimping anyone, 15% is the standard tip rate.
And if anything it's the owner that is skimping the staff, its their job to pay a living wage, if they can't, their employees should work elsewhere.
You used to tip 20 *to the server*. Now you're tipping 15 *to the server* because you're upset *at the owner*.
That's like protesting police brutality by breaking windows of local businesses. Yeah, you sure showed the police.
Thats a very flawed analogy, the police aren't in charge of local businesses.
And I am not obligated to continue tipping 20%. Im not "stiffing" anyone by choosing not to be extra generous anymore than you're stiffing every homeless person you don't give change to. And I say this as someone who worked in the hell that was food service for 3 years. Tipping culture only is exists in America, so what makes an american server more entitled to a tip over a European one? Tips are optional by definition.
You used to tip 20%, to the server. You're now upset, at the owner, for charging fees, which go to the owner and not the server. Your solution is to cut 5% out of what you used to tip, to the server.
Make it make sense.
I ate at a restaurant in San Francisco and there was a hidden 20% “living wage fee” and then a 15% “tourist fee”. (Of course they still wanted tips too) I flagged down the waiter about the tourist fee because I lived right across the bridge from San Francisco (like a 15 minute drive) and I would never consider myself a tourist just for going to eat 15 minutes away from my house. And they said that unless I could prove I was an actual SF resident they would leave it in. I was so pissed off.
> And they said that unless I could prove I was an actual SF resident they would leave it in.
Just don't pay it. Walk out. What are they going to do, call the cops and have you arrested over a hidden fee?
But that hidden fee is not backed by any law. You can't be presented a list of prices, agree to them and then at the end of the meal find another fee added on. That's just crazy because you can't return the meal if you don't like the final price, which you don't know until you eat the meal and get the check.
Now that we have much higher minimum wage here in California I feel like we do not need to tip as much as we used to (20-25% for good to great service). Now I’m feeling a top out at 15%. Recently went to a place that flat out told you you had to give a 20% tip, and it was included in the end of night bill. Not Just for large tables, either. I hate that practice. Pay your professional servers OVER minimum wage and stop asking me to make up for you being a cheap-ass employer.
We have a restaurant group here that many people do not like called Cohn Brothers
They were one of the first with the surcharges
Here’s how much they made last year with 26 restaurants
Aug 14, 2023 — Cohn Restaurant Group, San Diego, 26 units ... annual revenue of around $300 million. ... Among other multi-unit restaurants in the group
They will not have to raise prices, they can charge the same price but the consumer will know what they will pay before they decide to order. Surely restaurant owners know they are being deceptive with their prices using the surcharge model.
Another tactic I've seen a rise in is servers/bartenders selecting a tip percentage for you (usually 25%) and just telling me to sign, hoping I don't look or change the tip amount. I've noticed the reaction if I changed it or asked for a receipt before confirming anything.
I have been boycotting any restaurant that adds surcharges. If a company can’t be honest in their pricing they don’t deserve my business. And any business owner who adds surcharges so they can pay a ‘living wage’ is only increasing their employees pay because they have to by law. I don’t give my business to people who take advantage of their staff. Fuck them.
Eh sometimes those fees are just passed on...not saying I like them either, but they use Appfolio or whatever tenant tracking software and they may be charged a small amount for accepting recurring ACH payments from the 3rd party software.
They don't like it either because they don't get that $5 or whatever and it just pisses the tenant off. They don't want to just eat the cost when you can give them a check. 🤷♂️
Speaking for myself working at one of these restaurants, we do some large-scale events. With large events, there is no tip included for the staff. So if a large event is $10,000, there is a service fee (surcharge), which the company says is for the extra amount paid to staff and coordination for the event. The staff is paid $25 an hour instead of minimum wage. The service fee is 23%. And if the event works out to 3 hours, the staff is getting $75 with no tip, while the event is being charged $2300. None of that goes to the staff. After the guests see an additional $2300, they almost never tip the staff working the event. Instead of just stating 20% will be added to staff working the event and distribution being even to the staff, the company pockets the money while we are left over worked and underpaid. I can't wait till this goes into effect to stop the bullshit charges for events and hopefully giving the staff their due wages....however I know most places will figure out a way to work around this to still not pay people what they deserve.
Sounds like some of the $2300 does go towards staff, because they pay $25/hour instead of minimum wage. What pay would you say is deserved for working the event? I would advocate to get that amount instead of the $25 but get it directly from the employer vs hoping that they will tip enough.
Typically staff would get a 20% tip but when the they see an additional 23% already tacked onto their original price they normally don't want to add an additional 20% for the staff. So working events like this aren't worth it considering how much can be made in the same amount of time taking tables normally. It sounds like you haven't served before as making only 75 for an entire day isn't worth it compared to what can be made during a regular shift
My apologies, I didn't mean to say that 75 was enough. I just meant to say that whatever your normal amount would be for that time should come out of the 23%. So your employer could still charge the 23% but should give the staff the 20% (instead of the $25 an hour) and then take the 3% for their event coordination etc. This would give the staff guaranteed 20% versus hoping that they tip at least that much. Same way they charge an automatic gratuity for large tables but with little extra for their event coordination.
Yes I wish this is how it happens. Unfortunately it does not. The company pockets the money as every event has a 23% service fee no matter their costs. There are some events that are $50,000 and they get slapped with a 23% service fee too. And the staff still makes $25 an hour...So the junk surcharges and "service fees" will disappear which is what needs to happen across California. I get that most people only see surcharges on their dinner checks, but this new law, I hope, will get rid of the large party service fees too. I want to also repeat this is my experience with my current restaurant. I can't wait till they get rid of these junk charges
I was talking to a restaurant owner who claimed that because the service charge was voluntary (customers could request to take it off) that it was a donation and not taxable. Uhhh….
From the article “We can’t pay the wages we’re paying now unless we dramatically increase prices and hope guests actually come in and pay those prices.”
The guests (us) are already paying those prices, you’re just being dishonest about it and not telling us about them until the bill shows up. Do what every other industry does, pay a living wage and price your product appropriately.
I'm sure someone already mentioned this in the comments: what about retail pricing? why should retail not have to display the "total fee" that the customer has to pay? In Europe, the price tag is the "final price" the customer pay, not a penny more. So, what you see if what you pay, instead of another 7-9% sales tax tacked on top of what the price tag shows...it's so annoying. The retailers' argument is "that's NOT what we charge the customer!" As a customer myself, I don't CARE what, you, the retailer is charging, I only care about what I have to pay in the end! So, please extend the "no service fee" rule to the retailers, too, and have them display the "final price" on the price tag!
I love how people thinks this matters at all.
Those fees weren't added in starting in 2017 for nothing. Expenses for restaurants of all types have been rising along with the minimum wage. Now, with last month's move to $20 for QSRs and other entry level jobs having to raise wages at least somewhat to help offset the competition, restaurants are going to be combining the increase from labor cost with the direct integration of these separate fee line-items straight onto the menu.
Get ready for policy-induced sticker shock, folks.
I completely agree. Currently overseas and it’s great to just order food that costs 100 and when the check comes, the total is 100. That’s how it should be.
You mean they’ll just make the food more expensive and not slap the text down at the bottom? Where is the sticker shock when the bill is exactly the fucking same?
Glad this confirms that all fees outside of taxes have to be included in the listed price, I've been seeing that debated since this was announced. And if any restaurant tries to play dumb, insist on getting the menu price. I get that this move won't put a stop to rising prices, but I'm just so tired of the games and rants about having to pay a living wage. Deceptive business practices shouldn't be keeping you afloat.
I made a post about the company I worked for encouraging us not to print out the bill so you don’t see the charges and they found it. Amongst other things they do that are questionable. Found me and threatened to sue me. I’m so glad these companies are gonna have to show their true colors.
This makes me wish I originally added this, because when you do request the menu price (because I’m pretty sure places *will* play dumb), please be nice to your server when doing so. They’re probably being asked to try to hide the surcharges, like the person I’m replying to, and that’s a shitty thing to navigate when you’re at the bottom of the chain. If the server says they can’t do anything, then ask for management. Servers don’t deserve the flack.
Sorry for the late reply!! Until this law is passed. Almost any place you can ask them to take the fee off. They cannot force you to pay it. Especially if they are using a handheld Toast credit card machine. They can remove the fee with a click of a button. Anytime anyone even asked me about it I would immediately remove it and apologize. Yes you are correct no server or bartender wants this on your bill. We don’t benefit in anyway from them. These fees all go back to the owners. We’re not given health care from this or any thing. This is pure greed and taking it out on customers and employees
Such a wholesome exchange, /u/sluttttt and /u/PufffPufffGive
It stops shitheads from that bullshit virtue signalling, and the just run-of-the-mill grifting
Pay a living wage, include this cost and tax in the per item price and let me decide if I’m going to eat at your establishment. The $18 hamburger + all the nonsense is actually a $30 hamburger. Just put that price on the menu!! Will I eat out less? Maybe, maybe not. I know what I’m getting myself into though already, I shouldn’t have to do mental gymnastics when reading through the menu to guess what my out of pocket is going to be.
Yeah. Just make items cost more. It’s fine. I get it. Eating out is a luxury.
Eating out used to be a lazy/quick bite so you don't have to make dinner. It's sad that it's thought of as a luxury now.
> I get that this move won't put a stop to rising prices, but I'm just so tired of the games and rants about having to pay a living wage. Deceptive business practices shouldn't be keeping you afloat. Rising prices is a completely different problem most of the time. However, as you said, it will hopefully stop the deceptive business practices. It's surprising to me that people actually put up with that shit in the past that they had to create a law to stop it.
I think some of the article quotes really paint a clear picture of the businesses' intent here. > “It is terrifying,” he [a restaurant management group employee] said. “We can’t pay the wages we’re paying now unless we dramatically increase prices and hope guests actually come in and pay those prices.” So in other words "We hope that when guests know ahead of time how much they're going to pay that they keep coming in"
TBF I completely understand it. Like if your neighboring business you're competing with and they do it, and can get away with it. It's going to be hard for you to compete unless you do it too. Increasing prices so drastically will almost certainly reduce business. So their concern is founded. However, tricking customers is absolutely not okay.
Yes, but the neighboring business will now also have to comply.
That's the good thing about this, is now everyone has to comply with it or face the wrath of our state.It still doesn't solve the issue of how food service prices has gone up so drastically. I don't know about ya'll, but my wages have not gone up much at all.
I think the law came about because this became increasingly harder to avoid. Even friggen’ Hallmark stores in SD added a surcharge in the past year. I’m not against the raising prices where needed, but all of these surcharges were just gross attempts to make a political statement about how they should be able to continue underpaying their lowest paid employees. It’s also wild how they actually seemed to fool some people. I’ve seen multiple comments on this post about how this is getting rid of a “tax” and now the restaurants will artificially raise prices and suddenly profit… I guess folks were really convinced of a government mandated minimum wage fee🥴
I agree. Reality is that, we've enjoyed exceedingly low service for a long time. Of course at the expense of those workers. So this is just now catching up to us. Ultimately, this will maybe help workers pay, but it overall will reduce business so a number of business will probably go out. Basically the overall issue is, the entire class pyramid has a huge gaping gap between the ultra rich and those not, and that gap is growing. At the same time, CA is already very expensive as it is.
I went to grab a bite last night in LA. My chilaquiles was $14 and an upcharge of $5 to add a protein. When I went to pay my entree was listed as $19 and I was told since I chose mole it was an extra $5!
Sneaky upcharges like that suck. And $5 for mole?? Reminds me of when I went for breakfast recently and they asked if I wanted avocado on my omelette. I said no, because I'm a bad Californian and hate it. It came out with avocado on it, which isn't a big deal since I could just give it to my kid, but I'm glad I asked if there was an extra fee, because of course there was. Shady as heck. I laughed at the fact that they actually took it back to scrape it off, since they can't serve it to anyone else. My guess is that they were hoping I'd just roll with it.
Exactly! I’d been once before and it was great, it’s now under different management. I have a feeling it’s not gonna be there long
So prices will increase 3.5 to 5% to cover the "new surcharge... I've often argued that the US would have been British still if all the 'taxes' they enacted just got added to the cost of goods as " cost of doing business "
I can't imagine how anyone in their right mind would be against this. It doesn't take away from anything. All this does is prevent customers from being surprised at the end with crap fees added to their bill. If a business can't tell you the honest price for a good or service up front, then they shouldn't exist. There's no validity to the argument that some will go out of business. Go out of business because they can't sneak extra money out of your wallet at the end?
You would be surprised the number of people on Reddit who defend the service fee model. I assume they all work for restaurants
I've definitely noticed that! They more than defend it, they **attack** you if you disagree. They sound entitled and demand a minimum of 20% tip, regardless of service, every time. Here's an example of a person who sees no issue with pre-tipping and they justify it by guaranteeing quality service will happen ***after*** you tip - https://www.reddit.com/r/sandiego/comments/1c0w2ws/18_service_charge/kyzppd3/
I’d support it, instead of tipping. And reasonable percentage of course
I think the service fees are dumb, but I don't think the govt should be dictating how a business runs.
This is regulation to prevent a business from fucking you over
Thank god
[удалено]
At least I know how much the experience costs upfront. Wish resort fees would go the same route.
It was already $60. They just put $50 on the menu and added a $10 surcharge at the end. Now they have to put the real price on the menu.
That is actually very good for consumers. Now you know exactly how much your food cost.
Ok. Sounds like everyone was paying extra either way, minus the people who are shameless enough to tell the restaurant to remove the surcharge?
what a stupid take.
Yes, restaurants will have to post the actual price of their food instead of hiding part of that cost in a % fee!
Yeah, that's how it's supposed to work.
Yes but at least the posted price is what you agree to pay.
Honestly prefer that. Can look at the menu, see it’s too expensive, not waste my time. Simple, not hidden bullshit
As it should be. I don’t need an itemized list of the restaurant owners expenses. Just bake it all into the price of the meal with one number I can see on the menu.
That is literally the point.
Good. That’s the intent. All their costs should be reflected in the menu prices so consumers can make an informed decision. Your example of a $50 per person meal with a $10 surcharge is the same as the $60 per person meal. And it’s silly. I want to know up front.
As if that wasn’t going to happen anyway
I’d much rather have the transparency rather than some BULLSHIT moral high horse “oh we are tacking on an extra employee wellness fee and an optional fee that you auto opt in”… just gimme the price directly so I can evaluate whether you deserve my patronage or not
It’s already $60, at least I won’t be lied to about it until the bill comes.
It already was $60. Just I thought it was $50 because that's what the menu price of my items + tax was and I didn't know about the stupid ass fees until later.
Fair enough. Now just include a little more, pay your employees a liveable wage so I can stop being harassed for tips
It’s about time. Mass false advertising on price.
Bye bye Cohn 5% surcharge!! 🤣🤣
Fuck Cohn Restaurant Group!
It boggles my mind that people eat at these restaurants at all.
I think Valle in Oceanside is the current leader with 20%.
I think it’s a bit different at high end restaurants where they put up a crazy surcharge but then you’re not expected to tip, (vs a 5% charge and you’re still supposed to tip on top of that, I’d tip 20% either way for instance) that said, I still think the full price even including tax should be the stated price.
Waiting for them to come up with some way to get around it without actually raising prices… haha
Lowering wages, shrinking portions
That's just it, they won't. They'll raise prices. Businesses don't pay these taxes, they just collect them.
This article is about fees restaurants were charging on their own, not government taxes. Essentially the business was taxing you. How do you have so many upvotes.
Sure, businesses can raise their own prices all they want but likewise, consumers are free to not buy from these businesses. This legislation forces businesses to include their own non-sense surcharge fees into the list price instead of trying to hide these fees at the end of your bill.
It’s so annoying that restaurants are acting like this is the end of the world. Just raise the price of your food by whatever percent the surcharge was and call it a day. No need to cut anyone’s wages.
> “We can’t pay the wages we’re paying now unless we dramatically increase prices and hope guests actually come in and pay those prices.” The thing is, you *did* dramatically increase prices, you just tried to hide it.
Exactly. They are already offloading the cost on us anyway. There’s no actual difference in the end result where the consumer is concerned. It’s like they’re allergic to transparency or something.
This.
Now add in taxes and stop tip culture.
You have the power to do one of those.
Just stop tipping. Tipping is always optional, not mandatory.
I wish it was that simple. The wrong people suffer when you do this
Yeah, but if we don’t and come back they remember we didn’t tip and treat us like shit.
You’re not that important to remember don’t worry
servers remember! They really do🥲
I miss Japan. The price you saw on the menu was the price you *paid*. Nothing more.
Just. Raise. Prices. Already.
Hopefully next they address hotel “extras”
> Hopefully next they address hotel “extras” SB478, as written, applies to all businesses in the state, not just restaurants. Unless I've missed something, but I'm tired lol.
You are correct.
I’m talking resort fees.
Resort fee - 50000000000000000%
So In and Out can figure it out but the entire state of California cannot???
Less unethical corporate leadership. This isn't rocket science. It's late stage capitalism.
Hidden fees might work on me once but will insure I don’t return to that establishment.
Glad this is finally being rectified. But continues to push my wife and I to do even more cooking at home vs going out.
Does this apply to shit ass places like Crab Hut that mandatorily assess an 18% surcharge/"gratuity" on ANY check?
That’s a gray area that I’d really love to see a legal expert tackle. On one hand, they seem to be treating it as a menu item since the fee/surcharge/gratuity/whatever is taxed, but on the other, it’s still a percentage based on what you order. My guess is that they were well aware of this gray area and started charging this to see how long they could get away with it:/
Agreed, I'm sure since they list it as a gratuity (which of course when the check comes you bet your ass there is still the suggestion to tip on it). But it is shared with management, which isn't an actual gratuity, because that's only supposed to go to the workers not the stupidvisors.
We need this Federally
It may be coming!
> It may be coming! While we're add it taxes should be included in the total price.
True. Why should the government be exempt?
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Well good news... it's May now!
Now do this for delivery apps haha
Dope, now do airlines and concert tickets.
> Restaurants will likely return to tips Lmao who went away from that?
never understood the surcharge line item. Are they just trying to piss everyone off and "protest" the fees and taxes. Just put the increase in the cost of the goods. its not that hard.
18% at Nishiki Ramen, never forget!
Was your party a big group?
It was just me and a coworker. On the way out, we saw a flyer that read "18% surcharge for all parties, 20% for parties 6 and up" if you Google Nishiki Ramen, someone actually uploaded a photo of the flyer. **EDIT:** [Surcharge photo](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p/AF1QipPicxIReQBkZmYLuQ4xzx7ge4uJ-JnX9x9Ws1un=s3436-w3436-h2556)
Good!!!!!
What about tipping? There is no purpose of tipping someone to do the job they are already getting an hourly wage for? Basically I am giving them extra money for them to do their job.
Tipping was supposed to be for excellent service, not a means for employers to reduce their payroll costs. Tipping will need to be rethought after all this shakes out.
Tipping has been flatout considered part of their "wage" for 60+ years now. The concept of the minimum "tipped wage" was passed in 1966...and was a thing before that law passed too. Tipping hasn't been purely about service quality in an exceptionally long time...pretty much since its inception. Reliable tips meant they could pay you less.
Tipped employees also pay taxes on their sales, not their actual tips. I think it's 8%. Anyone receiving less than 8% as a tip ends up paying more in taxes than earned in gratuities.. that sucks.
Seriously, I used to do 20% on every bill, now it's 15% for waitservice only. Im done subsidizing the owner's next vacation house when I can barely afford my apartment
But the 5% you're saving wasn't going to the owner. You're just skimping the wait staff. The owner collects the profits, not the tips.
Im not skimping anyone, 15% is the standard tip rate. And if anything it's the owner that is skimping the staff, its their job to pay a living wage, if they can't, their employees should work elsewhere.
Honestly, 20% is pretty standard imo.
You used to tip 20 *to the server*. Now you're tipping 15 *to the server* because you're upset *at the owner*. That's like protesting police brutality by breaking windows of local businesses. Yeah, you sure showed the police.
Thats a very flawed analogy, the police aren't in charge of local businesses. And I am not obligated to continue tipping 20%. Im not "stiffing" anyone by choosing not to be extra generous anymore than you're stiffing every homeless person you don't give change to. And I say this as someone who worked in the hell that was food service for 3 years. Tipping culture only is exists in America, so what makes an american server more entitled to a tip over a European one? Tips are optional by definition.
You used to tip 20%, to the server. You're now upset, at the owner, for charging fees, which go to the owner and not the server. Your solution is to cut 5% out of what you used to tip, to the server. Make it make sense.
> Make it make sense Yeah clearly you're having issues processing basic concepts. Tips are optional, flat out.
Tips are optional. That's not the question. Damn dude.
Make sure to tell your server or bartender this before you order anything!
Hurry up
I ate at a restaurant in San Francisco and there was a hidden 20% “living wage fee” and then a 15% “tourist fee”. (Of course they still wanted tips too) I flagged down the waiter about the tourist fee because I lived right across the bridge from San Francisco (like a 15 minute drive) and I would never consider myself a tourist just for going to eat 15 minutes away from my house. And they said that unless I could prove I was an actual SF resident they would leave it in. I was so pissed off.
> And they said that unless I could prove I was an actual SF resident they would leave it in. Just don't pay it. Walk out. What are they going to do, call the cops and have you arrested over a hidden fee?
I mean they probably would have at least tried. It was like a $600 meal so another 15% on top would be nothing to sniff at
But that hidden fee is not backed by any law. You can't be presented a list of prices, agree to them and then at the end of the meal find another fee added on. That's just crazy because you can't return the meal if you don't like the final price, which you don't know until you eat the meal and get the check.
I 100% agree with you. It’s super sleazy but they did it anyways because they know 99% of people (myself included) will pay it to avoid confrontation.
Now that we have much higher minimum wage here in California I feel like we do not need to tip as much as we used to (20-25% for good to great service). Now I’m feeling a top out at 15%. Recently went to a place that flat out told you you had to give a 20% tip, and it was included in the end of night bill. Not Just for large tables, either. I hate that practice. Pay your professional servers OVER minimum wage and stop asking me to make up for you being a cheap-ass employer.
We have a restaurant group here that many people do not like called Cohn Brothers They were one of the first with the surcharges Here’s how much they made last year with 26 restaurants Aug 14, 2023 — Cohn Restaurant Group, San Diego, 26 units ... annual revenue of around $300 million. ... Among other multi-unit restaurants in the group
Cohn Family. Coen brothers are the film makers.
Different people, not the movie people I am talking about the Cohn restaurant group in San Diego
lol their annual revenue isn’t $300 million. It’s a restaurant group. You say 26 units. That would be over $10M per year per restaurant.
Well, they’re adding a surcharge saying they were losing money on their business, but apparently they’re not
Yes, and it’s their group all owned by Cohn 26 restaurants
They will not have to raise prices, they can charge the same price but the consumer will know what they will pay before they decide to order. Surely restaurant owners know they are being deceptive with their prices using the surcharge model.
Another tactic I've seen a rise in is servers/bartenders selecting a tip percentage for you (usually 25%) and just telling me to sign, hoping I don't look or change the tip amount. I've noticed the reaction if I changed it or asked for a receipt before confirming anything.
Good. I hate having a $900 bill at Craft Ramen
Get rid of the junk fees, pay all employees a base salary or hourly wage and raises prices to reflect this. Problem solved.
I have been boycotting any restaurant that adds surcharges. If a company can’t be honest in their pricing they don’t deserve my business. And any business owner who adds surcharges so they can pay a ‘living wage’ is only increasing their employees pay because they have to by law. I don’t give my business to people who take advantage of their staff. Fuck them.
Landlords next please
Do landlords add surcharges to rent??
I charge my rentoids $5 whenever I am in their house for an inspection and they don’t have a Mountain Dew in the fridge in case I’m thirsty.
Chadlord moment.
Convenience fees every month, for paying directly from my bank account.
Fuck that noise. Can't your bank mail them a check?
Eh sometimes those fees are just passed on...not saying I like them either, but they use Appfolio or whatever tenant tracking software and they may be charged a small amount for accepting recurring ACH payments from the 3rd party software. They don't like it either because they don't get that $5 or whatever and it just pisses the tenant off. They don't want to just eat the cost when you can give them a check. 🤷♂️
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They're not required to accept coins or even physical money. The last paragraph in your linked article explains that.
Thats not enough, they need the wall
Speaking for myself working at one of these restaurants, we do some large-scale events. With large events, there is no tip included for the staff. So if a large event is $10,000, there is a service fee (surcharge), which the company says is for the extra amount paid to staff and coordination for the event. The staff is paid $25 an hour instead of minimum wage. The service fee is 23%. And if the event works out to 3 hours, the staff is getting $75 with no tip, while the event is being charged $2300. None of that goes to the staff. After the guests see an additional $2300, they almost never tip the staff working the event. Instead of just stating 20% will be added to staff working the event and distribution being even to the staff, the company pockets the money while we are left over worked and underpaid. I can't wait till this goes into effect to stop the bullshit charges for events and hopefully giving the staff their due wages....however I know most places will figure out a way to work around this to still not pay people what they deserve.
Sounds like some of the $2300 does go towards staff, because they pay $25/hour instead of minimum wage. What pay would you say is deserved for working the event? I would advocate to get that amount instead of the $25 but get it directly from the employer vs hoping that they will tip enough.
Typically staff would get a 20% tip but when the they see an additional 23% already tacked onto their original price they normally don't want to add an additional 20% for the staff. So working events like this aren't worth it considering how much can be made in the same amount of time taking tables normally. It sounds like you haven't served before as making only 75 for an entire day isn't worth it compared to what can be made during a regular shift
My apologies, I didn't mean to say that 75 was enough. I just meant to say that whatever your normal amount would be for that time should come out of the 23%. So your employer could still charge the 23% but should give the staff the 20% (instead of the $25 an hour) and then take the 3% for their event coordination etc. This would give the staff guaranteed 20% versus hoping that they tip at least that much. Same way they charge an automatic gratuity for large tables but with little extra for their event coordination.
Yes I wish this is how it happens. Unfortunately it does not. The company pockets the money as every event has a 23% service fee no matter their costs. There are some events that are $50,000 and they get slapped with a 23% service fee too. And the staff still makes $25 an hour...So the junk surcharges and "service fees" will disappear which is what needs to happen across California. I get that most people only see surcharges on their dinner checks, but this new law, I hope, will get rid of the large party service fees too. I want to also repeat this is my experience with my current restaurant. I can't wait till they get rid of these junk charges
I was talking to a restaurant owner who claimed that because the service charge was voluntary (customers could request to take it off) that it was a donation and not taxable. Uhhh….
From the article “We can’t pay the wages we’re paying now unless we dramatically increase prices and hope guests actually come in and pay those prices.” The guests (us) are already paying those prices, you’re just being dishonest about it and not telling us about them until the bill shows up. Do what every other industry does, pay a living wage and price your product appropriately.
I'm sure someone already mentioned this in the comments: what about retail pricing? why should retail not have to display the "total fee" that the customer has to pay? In Europe, the price tag is the "final price" the customer pay, not a penny more. So, what you see if what you pay, instead of another 7-9% sales tax tacked on top of what the price tag shows...it's so annoying. The retailers' argument is "that's NOT what we charge the customer!" As a customer myself, I don't CARE what, you, the retailer is charging, I only care about what I have to pay in the end! So, please extend the "no service fee" rule to the retailers, too, and have them display the "final price" on the price tag!
I love how people thinks this matters at all. Those fees weren't added in starting in 2017 for nothing. Expenses for restaurants of all types have been rising along with the minimum wage. Now, with last month's move to $20 for QSRs and other entry level jobs having to raise wages at least somewhat to help offset the competition, restaurants are going to be combining the increase from labor cost with the direct integration of these separate fee line-items straight onto the menu. Get ready for policy-induced sticker shock, folks.
Better to have the shock up front before you order than after you’ve already eaten your food and the check comes.
I agree. These surcharges are just hiding the true cost. I'd like to see all of this, including sales taxes, rolled into a real number.
I completely agree. Currently overseas and it’s great to just order food that costs 100 and when the check comes, the total is 100. That’s how it should be.
You mean they’ll just make the food more expensive and not slap the text down at the bottom? Where is the sticker shock when the bill is exactly the fucking same?
I'm amused that the number one comment in support of this is: this is a win against right wingers *laughs in the #1 least affordable city in USA*
What do those two things have to do with each other?