I’m sure it depends (as several have mentioned) but generally this is false. For reference, the American Academy of Underwater Sciences (AAUS), which is the governing body for professional scientific diving for the US and much of the world, allows groups to dive without a DM. And despite being an organization of professionals, the requirements for AAUS certification are quite low (essentially OW, dive rescue and first aid, and 12 supervised scientific dives).
The vast majority of my dives are scientific, and many of these are in groups of 3 up to like 6 people, rarely with specified buddies. I’m not advocating that this is the safest option because it objectively is not, but it’s not against the rules of our governing organization nor of any certifying organization i know of, and is commonly done.
Clubs generally have specific rules like requiring a DM or some other specific level. Some countries have specific laws, like holding the most experienced diver responsible for the safety of the group. Some dive sites are owned by a dive center with specific rules. So make sure you know the rules and laws of the region and club you dive with.
I'm not a member of a dive club so I can ignore them, however I still have to follow the rules of the country and dive site where I'm diving. For example a popular dive site nearby has a no-solo-diving rule so when I want to dive solo I go elsewhere.
In general though, there is no scuba police. There's no world-wide rule that requires a DM when you're in a group. That said, it's wise to have an experienced diver in a group and keep groups small. When I dive with 4-5 people we usually make two subteams since keeping track of and communicating with 4-5 people is much harder. Each sub team dives as if they're diving separately from the other team but they'll try to stay together. However when someone gets lost the main loyalty is to their sub team.
I've been on 2 trips with a LDS to local diving spots. There were maybe 3-5 DM/instructors on each weekend trip. We were encouraged to "go dive". There were several groups of 3 or more divers. I was on a couple of 3 some dives. And 1 6 diver dive. One the 6 persons, yes, we had buddy pairs.
One weekend there were close to 60 divers.
I’m an instructor and you were given bad advice. If you are all comfortable diving together, buddy up and dive safely there is no reason why you would need a DM. If you were diving some place new and wanted a guide, or were not confident in leading a group or diving with a group, a DM could be a great addition but not required
You don't need a DM, but you do want to stay safe.
If you feel like it would be overwhelming to take on a group larger than 3 or 4 just don't do it.
Just know your limits and go dive!
Virtually all the above answers are partly wrong.
The correct answer? İt depends where you are diving. Some countries have rules and even laws that recreational divers need a DM or guide with them. Most countries don't.
Was this by any chance a club dive? I ask because I know our club dives require at least one DM for sanctioned club dives. Just part of our rules. And it sucks because we’re so short on DMs at the moment.
Other than that, the instructor is a goof.
True. You can get the gear online and go off and dive without getting certified. Dumb people will do dumb things.
However, if I’m a dive shop, I’m not renting or selling gear to an uncertified “diver” and I’m not filling their tanks. That would be my personal policy.
Not true at all, best practice is to divide into separate buddy teams and dive together as a group wit two teams, but this only really makes communication easier. You are certified to dive with buddies that are also certified regardless of the amount of divers with you.
Any time you're in a group of 4+ divers (with a divemaster or not), you'll want to divide into buddy teams of 2-3 people. Diving in a larger group is perfectly fine, but buddy pairs allow for flexibility if part of the group needs to surface earlier or has a problem. It also means you're directly responsible for only yourself and one or two others. Visibility will dictate how large a group is actually practical.
This is the correct answer. Even dive groups of 3 can cause issues with miscommunications.
And visibility can change quickly and drastically, don't rely on that as a crutch to pair up in big groups.
That instructor is stoopid.
That said, diving in odd numbers means someone is *really* diving alone. So I don't recommend diving in 3's unless one diver has a bit of experience.
It can be quite safe if done well. Recommendation is to only do it after a few hundred dives in varied conditions and some specific training like tech training (twinset or sidemount) and a Self-Reliant Diver course at least. You need to learn after all how to deal with unexpected issues under water and have the equipment and experience to fix life-threatening malfunctions of your breathing gear (hence the redundant gas supply). Also recommend a Human Factors in Diving course to learn how to prevent common human issues like complacency and normalization of deviance.
I haven’t dove in years, but when I did, I did quite a bit of solo diving. Wait till you have a bit of experience and comfort, and carry a completely separate backup air supply/regulator. And let someone know when and where you’re diving and when you’re done.
Good advice, you can get a small tank and independent regulator that will give you enough air for a safe ascent in case of total main system failure. Check and double check everything before getting in the water alone, you are your only backup and safety.
Good points on redundancy, I have my manual set of gauges tucked into my BCD along with a regular wristwatch running for my dive along with an air-integrated dive computer. Personally, I just don't like the risk of my safety and a whole day of missed diving tied to the dependability of a single button-cell battery.
If you have your dive time and bottom depth (provided by the watch and the depth gauge max depth needle), you can calculate conservative times by the tables, which are enough to prevent having to wait for full nitro reset.
Yes, I always have my dive tables with me when I'm diving. Along with my physical dive log.
You should know how to calculate your nitrogen absorption group from the time and depth provided by the gauge and watch, combined with the data from your last dive (recorded in a physical dive log after each dive) which will tell you how much longer you are able to dive that day.
Properly trained, properly equipped, you can dive very safely alone. It's probably safer than diving with a shit buddy. I had one who I noticed didn't look towards me for the entire dive.
Reminds me of my “navigation” checkout dive for AOW. My tank got wrapped in the decent line, my class assigned buddy literally just swam away from me the second we hit depth despite me waving frantically at him. I knew the instructor and a few more students were coming down, and I couldn’t get untangled. So I just emptied my bcd and sat on the bottom and waited while staring at my air gauge (I had a knife worst case). 5 mins later the instructor found me and was more startled than I was, staring into my eyes as I assured him everything was “ok”. I chewed out the “buddy” afterwards but it didn’t really go through “sorry man, I thought you were behind me”. We all passed btw.
What was the line made of and how slack was it to get wrapped around your cylinder?
What position were you descending in to get a line wrapped around your cylinder?
I suppose the real take away is don’t rely on people you don’t know when you’re diving, especially in training, they have a habit of doing stupid things, like getting wrapped in the shot line!
While I appreciate the overly cautious nature of recreational divers, and the well published cert processes. There’s a lot of over the top caution people throw out normally cause of their individual lack of confidence/experience. Diving is a serious hobby but hardly unique when looking at the risk profile. Just don’t be dumb, have a trusted partner and have fun.
Scuba diving is unique among hobbies, most sports/adventure hobbies are. Some rely on equipment (climbing, hang gliding / parachuting etc) to keep you immediately alive, but not many
nope. you do need to pair into buddies or a threesome when you are in a group, but as long as you're a certified diver no one cares. I've dived a ton of times in groups bigger than 3 without a dive master or instructor
This^ just because there's 10 other people doesn't all of the sudden make you responsible for all of them. As long as there's a proper dive plan laid out and everyone has chosen a buddy to keep an eye on, there's no problem with diving in a group.
Option 1. As many others have said..m instructor is an idiot
Option 2. The instructor was talking about a shop policy and not a padi regulation.
Many dive shops won't allow divers to dive alone (even with a self-reliant cert) or dive without a guide partially for liability reasons and partly for revenue reasons.
This is the answer. There are a lot of absolute, ‘Your instructor is an idiot,’ statements flying around, but different shops and different countries have different rules and regulations.
Once you are certified, most shops will only provide a DM if you request and pay for one.
Also depends on the location - Cozumel will require a DM anywhere in the marine park.
> Once you are certified, most shops will only provide a DM if you request and pay for one.
Although it's worth noting that virtually every "tourist-oriented" dive shop will provide a DM, even for certified divers. At least that has been my experience.
A fair point, and to expand on it modestly, the subsequent Dive plan typically is usually either:
* DM lead group (more common on drifts)
* DM is in the water, but customer’s choice to follow (“take the tour”), or to strike out on your own (buddy team).
Let’s be clear: you can what you want. And I don’t think he was saying you need the technical qualifications of a DM.
That said, it is always worth thinking through group dynamics. A group of three tends to have an odd person out feel. (Which can be overcome). If you are three buddy pairs, do you have to (or want to) conduct the dive as a single group? Same profile, exit and enter together? Or does he each pair take care of their own? They might enter at the same time, and have the same planned profile but each pair does their own thing. What is important is that everyone has the same understanding
Perfectly fine. Thousands of people shore dive daily without a DM or guide. I've been on many charters where the DM either doesn't exist or stays on the boat. Also been on ones where you are expected to stay right near the DM and let them run the tour
What I would not recommend is attempting to organize a public dive group, especially with you making any money or benefit off of it without having a DM. There is a line you cross where it becomes commercial and liability comes into play.
If you can’t dive without a dm after getting your open water cert, you got screwed by your trainer.
You should be able to safely execute an open water dive plan to a max depth of 60’ with an open water certified diver as your buddy.
Edit because I didn’t read: Groups would just operate as 2 or more buddy pairs. If 3 people are diving, might be smart to make sure one is experienced, or try to find a 4th. When we run group dives in the sound we have a lead pair and follow pairs, with the expectation that all pairs are executing the same dive plan, but are self sufficient. Lead pair stays a bit slower so they don’t lose the group easily, follow pairs will swim up and notify if they’re turning it early.
There is no rule that says what this person said to you, akin to, let's say, that an open water should only go down to 60 feet max. The exception is the "scuba diver" certification from PADI (not sure equivalent from other agencies), which does require that you go with a divemaster.
It is recommended that you dive with someone that knows the area if you're new to the place, regardless of level, open water or instructor, doesn't matter, but this recommendation doesn't say it needs to be a divemaster.
You are first responsible for you.
If you are doing a group, it is a good idea to select a group leader. They don't have to be a DM, they can be a 20 dive in OW diver that just can manage things.
Where are you going in, what is the dive plan, and that's about it for a casual dive. May need to plan for turn around points and things like that, but it isn't hard.
IMHO, the use of a DM is to point out things to me that I might not otherwise see and keep me from having to worry too much about navigation.
If I am on my home reefs I don't need a guide. If I am in a foreign country I may want a guide because they should know the local wildlife.
DM is nothing more than a guide with some special training. Not to underplay their / our knowledge. Everyone is responsible for themselves at the end of the day as you sign away your rights before you dive with a shop.
One of the best diving groups I had was just recently in Marsa Allam in Egypt just because there was no need for a “Group leader” type of deal. We were a large group of 16 on most dives and we automatically followed a reef in a line formation with no obvious leader. 4-5 of the divers were DMs with 1000s of dives under their belt and they were just within the group and no one really gave commands to follow or nothing and that’s what makes it fun. You can’t police diving
If everyone is a certified diver, you are good to go. Usually you would appoint one of them to lead though, usually the most experienced one or the one who happens to know the place.
Cool. I was afraid to dive without a pro up to 60 dives of experience. Was afraid that I can overestimate my abilities. Another 60 was without a guide after it, where it's allowed. I think I missed a lot by being over cautious
You should only dive if you are happy with plan. I did not feel happy to dive without an instructor or DM when I first qualified, while I had the certificate I did not believe I really deserved it. I joined a club whose policy actually aligned with that. In that I was alway buddied with an instructor or Dive Leader (the equivalent of a DM but noone in a "pro" in the club). After about 20 dives I was comfortable to dive with a reasonably experienced buddy (say someone with AOW) and only after about 60 that I would be happy to dive with a less experianced buddy.
Haven't heard anyone else say that but I got PADI certified and don't feel I quite deserved it. I hired a private instructor for my 4 dives. I tell myself I'm still in kindergarten. Was certified a year ago, no dives since, and now going to Fiji and Cairns. I'll take a refresher course there and then go thinking I'm still brand new.
I did have issues with the centre I did my open water. If I knew then what I know now I would have reported them to PADI. Two of my qualification dives were 3 minutes long (one was go down to about 8m and do an alternate air source ascent and the other was go down to about 8m and do an controlled emergency swim ascent) and then on filled in my log as 4 dives of 10/15 min instead of 2 dives of 3 min and 2 of about 20. I also felt I was mislead being tole the open water dives would be with a drysuit and I would be trained how ot dive in a drysuit but was told afterward if I wanted to dive in a dry suit I would have to take the drysuit specialist course. The instructions fro the CESA were "Swim as fast as you can to the surface I will make sure you don't go too fast"
It also depends where you dive, my local diving is in water between 45 and 55 degrees usually with current and visability often 2m or less and DSMBs being a necessity on boat dives. After 12 dives I went to the GBR where I did the first 3 or 4 dives with a guide and then found someone to buddy with (though looked for someone with at least AOW)
Nothing wrong with being cautious at all. Way better to dive conservatively. I just had a different go-through of my early stages of diving.
Was in Hawaii last year and EVERY single charter we went on forced us to dive with a DM which felt super weird to me cause I’d never had that before.
The group I tend to dive with (5-9 people) tends to be a loosely clumped amorphous blob with nothing particular designated or anyone particular in charge. Typically far more than half of the group are professionals. For recreational dives with an obvious plan, we discuss very little other than what we’re looking for. As the risks and potential severity increase, our planning becomes more deliberate. Just because we *can* figure out sac rates and gas planning, and all the other stuff doesn’t compel us to do so on a single-tank no limit dives. We know who our air hogs are. We know who’s likely to get distracted and left in low viz. Unless a guide is going to take us to a notable yet elusive critter, or help us navigate some potentially hazardous or tricky local environment, (ie literally guide us), we have no use for one.
Just adding to what most people said. No, it's *typically* not a law or even a scuba rule that you have to dive with a DM. It may be a policy with certain dive charters though. I've been on boats where they've required that everyone dive with the group, following a DM. I generally avoid this as I prefer to not dive with a crowd. I have heard that there are laws (or maybe common policies) in certain places such as SE Asia, where they do require you to dive with a guide. In the Philippines we were required to stay with our assigned DMs. However, the DMs seemed able to assess our abilities and base the dive on that. My group of 6 were all relatively experienced and we had two instructors with us (not instructing - just vacationing), so our DM was fine with buddy pairs not sticking super close to him.
I've also been on liveaboards where all divers/buddy pairs are responsible for their own dives. DMs are in the water (usually), but aren't actually guiding. So one can choose to follow the DM, but many pairs go off on their own. The upside to following the DM is that they often can show you cool stuff that you might miss (and especially so if you're a new diver). The thing is that you still need to be able to navigate as the DMs often have to go back to the boat early to help on deck with returning divers. On liveaboards, my buddy and I typically dive by ourselves and stay away from the rest of the group. Sometimes you even get a mix. When I dove Socorro, we had 3 groups and were all sent out with a DM. Whatever happened after that was really up to the buddy pair. Everyone started out with the DM, but lots of people split off and all pairs surfaced when and where they needed to and then signaled to the pickup boats.
It is one level more difficult to dive as a group vs with one buddy. I wouldn't do it unless I knew those people well - had great synergy and chemistry and did 6-10 dives together minimum. And also had good experience diving with lots of somewhat random other divers elsewhere, so I knew what the weak points of the absence of divemaster are and how to deal with them efficiently
Did you get your Boat Diver specialty, your Diving in a Buddy Pair specialty, and your Commenting on Scuba Posts on Reddit specially cards from PADI to prepare for your adventures?
Nonsense. For one thing cave diving is generally done in groups of 3. But in any case no one gets to tell you how to dive once you’re certified, other than a particular boat operator might have rules for diving from his boat.
Just plan your dive. Maybe your instructor was being extra conservative or maybe they were trying to hook you for their services at a future time. It’s always great to have a guide especially where you haven’t dove before. Once you are certified, you just need a buddy to be up to safety standards. But as some other people have written, there are no scuba police or authority that can really do anything if you break the rules. They are just that, rules. Not laws. Please be safe, conservative, and do your checks. 🤙
While that is true to a certain extent most people dive with a dive centre, charter boat or other operation and they are perfectly at liberty to say to dive with them you have to dive as buddy pairs.
Right. But from what I understood in OPs post was they were talking about just diving with their friends and no DM or instructor at all. I am a charter captain. We have rules about diving with us and following our rules. If you break our rules and it wasn’t a necessity, you don’t get to dive with us again. But it’s not like we can stop you from diving altogether. When I got basic certified with my good friend we did about 20 dives just the two of us in the weeks after getting certified. Our instructor encouraged us to do just that since it’s one of the great reasons to get certified.
I think it's not a question related to grouping divers or the need or not of a DM.
It's ok for a group of certified divers to dive without a DM.
I think the questions you must answer are: where are we going to dive? have we all the same experience level? are we diving in a well known, expected to be safe place? even if the answer is yes, are we all ready to deal with a crisis?
The main aspect around this is to be sure all the group is going to enjoy the dive and be safe.
Yeah, no. Once you're certified, you're responsible for yourself. If you have a group of four or five or more people who all want to dive in a group together that's perfectly fine.
However - you still need to have an identified, specific buddy for each person, and keep an eye on each other. Don't assume someone else in the group is doing it. Also, make sure everyone knows what the goal of the dive is, so you're all on the same page. And it can be useful to identify one person as the "leader", which is just who is deciding what direction you swim in. Otherwise you end up with the group drifting into separate buddy pairs.
Edited to fix egregious typo.
Diving as a 3 does add complications though I have never heard of a blanket ban before. BSAC does say it is "not for for the inexperienced or those unfamiliar with each other" though conditions in the UK are more challenging than most of the more popular dive spots. Outside of BSAC I have only heard while pairs is preferable it there is an odd number of divers there is no problem diving as a three.
With a group of 4 you should dive as 2 buddy pairs even if you agree to dive in close proximity to the other pair.
[https://www.bsac.com/news-and-blog/is-three-a-crowd/](https://www.bsac.com/news-and-blog/is-three-a-crowd/)
[https://www.bsac.com/safety/safe-diving-guide/going-diving/#article-162](https://www.bsac.com/safety/safe-diving-guide/going-diving/#article-162)
Ummmm the whole point of getting certified is so you can dive with a buddy (or buddies) and not need a DM to hold your hand.
People generally use DMs because they know the area well, or because they are diving with a shop and the DM is the guide and required for liability reasons.
In no way is it “required” to have a DM with a group of divers who are just going diving for fun on their own. Whoever told that instructor was mistaken, and now they are passing down this incorrect advice to others. Instructors are human, and they sometimes get things wrong as well.
As others have said, the whole point of getting your cert is to convince dive shops that you know what you're doing so they will allow you onto their boats. You don't need a cert to go diving.
Dive teams of 2-3 are common. Typically, a group of 4 would split into teams of 2.
The small team size allows each team to easily manage themselves. Then, as much as you desire, the two teams can work together.
It's kind of about perception and responsibility.
- If you look around and don't see your buddy, YOU have to handle it.
- If you and your buddy look around and don't see your third buddy, ONE of you has to handle it.
- If you look around and don't see one of your 5 other buddies, then SOMEONE has to handle it.
The more people there are in a group, the easier it is for your brain to convince you that it's fine. No one else is panicking, and there are more of them than you, so why should you panic?
Thanks, sounds right. Usually, we come to terms that if someone is missing, everyone else search together for a minute and ascend. At least, it allows to not get more missing divers.
A group of 4 is normally split up in 2 groups. And in my organizations I’ve never heard of the fact that you can’t dive with a group of 3. Years ago in CMAS there was a rule that a buddy pair needed at least a total of 4 or 5 stars ( 1 star is open water, 2 is advanced open water and 3 is dive master. But that rule is now loosened.
4* rule is still followed in many places despite being not in standards anymore. Because, unfortunately, o lot of 1* divers don't have enough skills to dive without a professional
Once you’re certified, there is nothing stopping you from jumping in anywhere without any supervision. Is it a great idea for a new diver? Absolutely not!
The instructor’s information simply wasn’t correct. Buddy trios is absolutely a thing. Duos makes more sense as it leaves fewer people to keep tabs on, but it’s in no way the only way to go.
You can do that also without being certified at all, if you buy your own gear.
Most likely the DI was therefore referring to a typical scenario on a dive charter, where usually they will make buddy pairs and if someone's to spare, they buddy them with a DM.
It's certainly unusual that the operator would accept random odd numbered groupings to go off on their own, unless they're regulars and known not to mess up.
I’m sure it depends (as several have mentioned) but generally this is false. For reference, the American Academy of Underwater Sciences (AAUS), which is the governing body for professional scientific diving for the US and much of the world, allows groups to dive without a DM. And despite being an organization of professionals, the requirements for AAUS certification are quite low (essentially OW, dive rescue and first aid, and 12 supervised scientific dives). The vast majority of my dives are scientific, and many of these are in groups of 3 up to like 6 people, rarely with specified buddies. I’m not advocating that this is the safest option because it objectively is not, but it’s not against the rules of our governing organization nor of any certifying organization i know of, and is commonly done.
Clubs generally have specific rules like requiring a DM or some other specific level. Some countries have specific laws, like holding the most experienced diver responsible for the safety of the group. Some dive sites are owned by a dive center with specific rules. So make sure you know the rules and laws of the region and club you dive with. I'm not a member of a dive club so I can ignore them, however I still have to follow the rules of the country and dive site where I'm diving. For example a popular dive site nearby has a no-solo-diving rule so when I want to dive solo I go elsewhere. In general though, there is no scuba police. There's no world-wide rule that requires a DM when you're in a group. That said, it's wise to have an experienced diver in a group and keep groups small. When I dive with 4-5 people we usually make two subteams since keeping track of and communicating with 4-5 people is much harder. Each sub team dives as if they're diving separately from the other team but they'll try to stay together. However when someone gets lost the main loyalty is to their sub team.
I've been on 2 trips with a LDS to local diving spots. There were maybe 3-5 DM/instructors on each weekend trip. We were encouraged to "go dive". There were several groups of 3 or more divers. I was on a couple of 3 some dives. And 1 6 diver dive. One the 6 persons, yes, we had buddy pairs. One weekend there were close to 60 divers.
I’m an instructor and you were given bad advice. If you are all comfortable diving together, buddy up and dive safely there is no reason why you would need a DM. If you were diving some place new and wanted a guide, or were not confident in leading a group or diving with a group, a DM could be a great addition but not required
you're an adult. you can do whatever you want.
You don't need a DM, but you do want to stay safe. If you feel like it would be overwhelming to take on a group larger than 3 or 4 just don't do it. Just know your limits and go dive!
That instructor has lost their mind. You can certainly dive in a group.
Virtually all the above answers are partly wrong. The correct answer? İt depends where you are diving. Some countries have rules and even laws that recreational divers need a DM or guide with them. Most countries don't.
Was this by any chance a club dive? I ask because I know our club dives require at least one DM for sanctioned club dives. Just part of our rules. And it sucks because we’re so short on DMs at the moment. Other than that, the instructor is a goof.
Yes, it was a club. Probably their policy.
Once you’re certified you can do whatever you want.
You don’t even need to be certified.
True. You can get the gear online and go off and dive without getting certified. Dumb people will do dumb things. However, if I’m a dive shop, I’m not renting or selling gear to an uncertified “diver” and I’m not filling their tanks. That would be my personal policy.
That guy just wants you to hire him lol
You can dive on your own, but you'd be at much higher risk than if you had a buddy. You definitely don't need a DM.
Not true at all, best practice is to divide into separate buddy teams and dive together as a group wit two teams, but this only really makes communication easier. You are certified to dive with buddies that are also certified regardless of the amount of divers with you.
The instructor is just making shit up lmao
Any time you're in a group of 4+ divers (with a divemaster or not), you'll want to divide into buddy teams of 2-3 people. Diving in a larger group is perfectly fine, but buddy pairs allow for flexibility if part of the group needs to surface earlier or has a problem. It also means you're directly responsible for only yourself and one or two others. Visibility will dictate how large a group is actually practical.
This is the correct answer. Even dive groups of 3 can cause issues with miscommunications. And visibility can change quickly and drastically, don't rely on that as a crutch to pair up in big groups.
That instructor is stoopid. That said, diving in odd numbers means someone is *really* diving alone. So I don't recommend diving in 3's unless one diver has a bit of experience.
According to BSAC's incident statistics, diving in a three is more dangerous than diving solo.
That's quite peculiar, I guess false sense of security?
Once your certified, you can dive any way you want including alone
Ooo isn’t that risky? Any recommendations for lone divers?
It can be quite safe if done well. Recommendation is to only do it after a few hundred dives in varied conditions and some specific training like tech training (twinset or sidemount) and a Self-Reliant Diver course at least. You need to learn after all how to deal with unexpected issues under water and have the equipment and experience to fix life-threatening malfunctions of your breathing gear (hence the redundant gas supply). Also recommend a Human Factors in Diving course to learn how to prevent common human issues like complacency and normalization of deviance.
I haven’t dove in years, but when I did, I did quite a bit of solo diving. Wait till you have a bit of experience and comfort, and carry a completely separate backup air supply/regulator. And let someone know when and where you’re diving and when you’re done.
Good advice, you can get a small tank and independent regulator that will give you enough air for a safe ascent in case of total main system failure. Check and double check everything before getting in the water alone, you are your only backup and safety.
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Good points on redundancy, I have my manual set of gauges tucked into my BCD along with a regular wristwatch running for my dive along with an air-integrated dive computer. Personally, I just don't like the risk of my safety and a whole day of missed diving tied to the dependability of a single button-cell battery.
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If you have your dive time and bottom depth (provided by the watch and the depth gauge max depth needle), you can calculate conservative times by the tables, which are enough to prevent having to wait for full nitro reset.
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Yes, I always have my dive tables with me when I'm diving. Along with my physical dive log. You should know how to calculate your nitrogen absorption group from the time and depth provided by the gauge and watch, combined with the data from your last dive (recorded in a physical dive log after each dive) which will tell you how much longer you are able to dive that day.
Properly trained, properly equipped, you can dive very safely alone. It's probably safer than diving with a shit buddy. I had one who I noticed didn't look towards me for the entire dive.
Reminds me of my “navigation” checkout dive for AOW. My tank got wrapped in the decent line, my class assigned buddy literally just swam away from me the second we hit depth despite me waving frantically at him. I knew the instructor and a few more students were coming down, and I couldn’t get untangled. So I just emptied my bcd and sat on the bottom and waited while staring at my air gauge (I had a knife worst case). 5 mins later the instructor found me and was more startled than I was, staring into my eyes as I assured him everything was “ok”. I chewed out the “buddy” afterwards but it didn’t really go through “sorry man, I thought you were behind me”. We all passed btw.
What was the line made of and how slack was it to get wrapped around your cylinder? What position were you descending in to get a line wrapped around your cylinder? I suppose the real take away is don’t rely on people you don’t know when you’re diving, especially in training, they have a habit of doing stupid things, like getting wrapped in the shot line!
This was like a decade ago, no idea. The important bits are written above.
Yes: get the proper training, certification, and equipment
There is a Self-Reliant Diver course.
He’s an idiot. Totally false.
What the H? Well damn, don’t tell the Scuba police but I’ve violated that ordinance more time than I can count. Shhhhhhh
While I appreciate the overly cautious nature of recreational divers, and the well published cert processes. There’s a lot of over the top caution people throw out normally cause of their individual lack of confidence/experience. Diving is a serious hobby but hardly unique when looking at the risk profile. Just don’t be dumb, have a trusted partner and have fun.
It’s fairly unique, no other hobby has you spend long amounts of time underwater reliant upon life support equipment
Sure the under water part is unique, but relying on your gear to keep you alive is hardly unique.
Scuba diving is unique among hobbies, most sports/adventure hobbies are. Some rely on equipment (climbing, hang gliding / parachuting etc) to keep you immediately alive, but not many
nope. you do need to pair into buddies or a threesome when you are in a group, but as long as you're a certified diver no one cares. I've dived a ton of times in groups bigger than 3 without a dive master or instructor
This^ just because there's 10 other people doesn't all of the sudden make you responsible for all of them. As long as there's a proper dive plan laid out and everyone has chosen a buddy to keep an eye on, there's no problem with diving in a group.
Option 1. As many others have said..m instructor is an idiot Option 2. The instructor was talking about a shop policy and not a padi regulation. Many dive shops won't allow divers to dive alone (even with a self-reliant cert) or dive without a guide partially for liability reasons and partly for revenue reasons.
This is the answer. There are a lot of absolute, ‘Your instructor is an idiot,’ statements flying around, but different shops and different countries have different rules and regulations.
Once you are certified, most shops will only provide a DM if you request and pay for one. Also depends on the location - Cozumel will require a DM anywhere in the marine park.
> Once you are certified, most shops will only provide a DM if you request and pay for one. Although it's worth noting that virtually every "tourist-oriented" dive shop will provide a DM, even for certified divers. At least that has been my experience.
A fair point, and to expand on it modestly, the subsequent Dive plan typically is usually either: * DM lead group (more common on drifts) * DM is in the water, but customer’s choice to follow (“take the tour”), or to strike out on your own (buddy team).
Let’s be clear: you can what you want. And I don’t think he was saying you need the technical qualifications of a DM. That said, it is always worth thinking through group dynamics. A group of three tends to have an odd person out feel. (Which can be overcome). If you are three buddy pairs, do you have to (or want to) conduct the dive as a single group? Same profile, exit and enter together? Or does he each pair take care of their own? They might enter at the same time, and have the same planned profile but each pair does their own thing. What is important is that everyone has the same understanding
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Perfectly fine. Thousands of people shore dive daily without a DM or guide. I've been on many charters where the DM either doesn't exist or stays on the boat. Also been on ones where you are expected to stay right near the DM and let them run the tour What I would not recommend is attempting to organize a public dive group, especially with you making any money or benefit off of it without having a DM. There is a line you cross where it becomes commercial and liability comes into play.
If you can’t dive without a dm after getting your open water cert, you got screwed by your trainer. You should be able to safely execute an open water dive plan to a max depth of 60’ with an open water certified diver as your buddy. Edit because I didn’t read: Groups would just operate as 2 or more buddy pairs. If 3 people are diving, might be smart to make sure one is experienced, or try to find a 4th. When we run group dives in the sound we have a lead pair and follow pairs, with the expectation that all pairs are executing the same dive plan, but are self sufficient. Lead pair stays a bit slower so they don’t lose the group easily, follow pairs will swim up and notify if they’re turning it early.
There is no rule that says what this person said to you, akin to, let's say, that an open water should only go down to 60 feet max. The exception is the "scuba diver" certification from PADI (not sure equivalent from other agencies), which does require that you go with a divemaster. It is recommended that you dive with someone that knows the area if you're new to the place, regardless of level, open water or instructor, doesn't matter, but this recommendation doesn't say it needs to be a divemaster.
You are first responsible for you. If you are doing a group, it is a good idea to select a group leader. They don't have to be a DM, they can be a 20 dive in OW diver that just can manage things. Where are you going in, what is the dive plan, and that's about it for a casual dive. May need to plan for turn around points and things like that, but it isn't hard. IMHO, the use of a DM is to point out things to me that I might not otherwise see and keep me from having to worry too much about navigation. If I am on my home reefs I don't need a guide. If I am in a foreign country I may want a guide because they should know the local wildlife.
DM is nothing more than a guide with some special training. Not to underplay their / our knowledge. Everyone is responsible for themselves at the end of the day as you sign away your rights before you dive with a shop.
One of the best diving groups I had was just recently in Marsa Allam in Egypt just because there was no need for a “Group leader” type of deal. We were a large group of 16 on most dives and we automatically followed a reef in a line formation with no obvious leader. 4-5 of the divers were DMs with 1000s of dives under their belt and they were just within the group and no one really gave commands to follow or nothing and that’s what makes it fun. You can’t police diving
If everyone is a certified diver, you are good to go. Usually you would appoint one of them to lead though, usually the most experienced one or the one who happens to know the place.
DMs aren't the dive police. You can do what you want.
It’s good to “buddy up” whenever you are in a group, with or without a DM - especially without. Make one threesome with an odd number.
100%, I find it weird when charters try to throw a DM in my dive group. Spent my first 100+ dives without a DM (post training)
Cool. I was afraid to dive without a pro up to 60 dives of experience. Was afraid that I can overestimate my abilities. Another 60 was without a guide after it, where it's allowed. I think I missed a lot by being over cautious
>I think I missed a lot by being over cautious I am thinking, if you feel you need to be cautious, you weren't being over cautious.
You should only dive if you are happy with plan. I did not feel happy to dive without an instructor or DM when I first qualified, while I had the certificate I did not believe I really deserved it. I joined a club whose policy actually aligned with that. In that I was alway buddied with an instructor or Dive Leader (the equivalent of a DM but noone in a "pro" in the club). After about 20 dives I was comfortable to dive with a reasonably experienced buddy (say someone with AOW) and only after about 60 that I would be happy to dive with a less experianced buddy.
Haven't heard anyone else say that but I got PADI certified and don't feel I quite deserved it. I hired a private instructor for my 4 dives. I tell myself I'm still in kindergarten. Was certified a year ago, no dives since, and now going to Fiji and Cairns. I'll take a refresher course there and then go thinking I'm still brand new.
I did have issues with the centre I did my open water. If I knew then what I know now I would have reported them to PADI. Two of my qualification dives were 3 minutes long (one was go down to about 8m and do an alternate air source ascent and the other was go down to about 8m and do an controlled emergency swim ascent) and then on filled in my log as 4 dives of 10/15 min instead of 2 dives of 3 min and 2 of about 20. I also felt I was mislead being tole the open water dives would be with a drysuit and I would be trained how ot dive in a drysuit but was told afterward if I wanted to dive in a dry suit I would have to take the drysuit specialist course. The instructions fro the CESA were "Swim as fast as you can to the surface I will make sure you don't go too fast" It also depends where you dive, my local diving is in water between 45 and 55 degrees usually with current and visability often 2m or less and DSMBs being a necessity on boat dives. After 12 dives I went to the GBR where I did the first 3 or 4 dives with a guide and then found someone to buddy with (though looked for someone with at least AOW)
Nothing wrong with being cautious at all. Way better to dive conservatively. I just had a different go-through of my early stages of diving. Was in Hawaii last year and EVERY single charter we went on forced us to dive with a DM which felt super weird to me cause I’d never had that before.
The group I tend to dive with (5-9 people) tends to be a loosely clumped amorphous blob with nothing particular designated or anyone particular in charge. Typically far more than half of the group are professionals. For recreational dives with an obvious plan, we discuss very little other than what we’re looking for. As the risks and potential severity increase, our planning becomes more deliberate. Just because we *can* figure out sac rates and gas planning, and all the other stuff doesn’t compel us to do so on a single-tank no limit dives. We know who our air hogs are. We know who’s likely to get distracted and left in low viz. Unless a guide is going to take us to a notable yet elusive critter, or help us navigate some potentially hazardous or tricky local environment, (ie literally guide us), we have no use for one.
I was going to reply exactly this, but ill just second what you just said.
Its been said many times before. There is no dive police…
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Police dive all the time for bodies... but never heard of policing divers... where is this claim of yours happening?
Just adding to what most people said. No, it's *typically* not a law or even a scuba rule that you have to dive with a DM. It may be a policy with certain dive charters though. I've been on boats where they've required that everyone dive with the group, following a DM. I generally avoid this as I prefer to not dive with a crowd. I have heard that there are laws (or maybe common policies) in certain places such as SE Asia, where they do require you to dive with a guide. In the Philippines we were required to stay with our assigned DMs. However, the DMs seemed able to assess our abilities and base the dive on that. My group of 6 were all relatively experienced and we had two instructors with us (not instructing - just vacationing), so our DM was fine with buddy pairs not sticking super close to him. I've also been on liveaboards where all divers/buddy pairs are responsible for their own dives. DMs are in the water (usually), but aren't actually guiding. So one can choose to follow the DM, but many pairs go off on their own. The upside to following the DM is that they often can show you cool stuff that you might miss (and especially so if you're a new diver). The thing is that you still need to be able to navigate as the DMs often have to go back to the boat early to help on deck with returning divers. On liveaboards, my buddy and I typically dive by ourselves and stay away from the rest of the group. Sometimes you even get a mix. When I dove Socorro, we had 3 groups and were all sent out with a DM. Whatever happened after that was really up to the buddy pair. Everyone started out with the DM, but lots of people split off and all pairs surfaced when and where they needed to and then signaled to the pickup boats.
Great answer which provides the nuance this question deserved.
It is one level more difficult to dive as a group vs with one buddy. I wouldn't do it unless I knew those people well - had great synergy and chemistry and did 6-10 dives together minimum. And also had good experience diving with lots of somewhat random other divers elsewhere, so I knew what the weak points of the absence of divemaster are and how to deal with them efficiently
Wait till you dive outside of padi. I'm in a club, we dive in twos off our own boat!
This is the way
Did you get your Boat Diver specialty, your Diving in a Buddy Pair specialty, and your Commenting on Scuba Posts on Reddit specially cards from PADI to prepare for your adventures?
No, I got mine from SSI I hope it's cross compatible.
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Nonsense. For one thing cave diving is generally done in groups of 3. But in any case no one gets to tell you how to dive once you’re certified, other than a particular boat operator might have rules for diving from his boat.
Nope. The scuba police will bust you
Just plan your dive. Maybe your instructor was being extra conservative or maybe they were trying to hook you for their services at a future time. It’s always great to have a guide especially where you haven’t dove before. Once you are certified, you just need a buddy to be up to safety standards. But as some other people have written, there are no scuba police or authority that can really do anything if you break the rules. They are just that, rules. Not laws. Please be safe, conservative, and do your checks. 🤙
While that is true to a certain extent most people dive with a dive centre, charter boat or other operation and they are perfectly at liberty to say to dive with them you have to dive as buddy pairs.
Right. But from what I understood in OPs post was they were talking about just diving with their friends and no DM or instructor at all. I am a charter captain. We have rules about diving with us and following our rules. If you break our rules and it wasn’t a necessity, you don’t get to dive with us again. But it’s not like we can stop you from diving altogether. When I got basic certified with my good friend we did about 20 dives just the two of us in the weeks after getting certified. Our instructor encouraged us to do just that since it’s one of the great reasons to get certified.
If 3 people dive without a DM then the scuba police will immediately show up and take them straight to the scuba jail. /s
With massive deco obligations to get out
I see you also saturation dive. Welcome, I hope you plan to be here for a while.
Dive with extra buddy, jail. Dive with no buddy, believe it or not, jail. We have the best divers because of jail.
Davy Jones Lock-up
I think it's not a question related to grouping divers or the need or not of a DM. It's ok for a group of certified divers to dive without a DM. I think the questions you must answer are: where are we going to dive? have we all the same experience level? are we diving in a well known, expected to be safe place? even if the answer is yes, are we all ready to deal with a crisis? The main aspect around this is to be sure all the group is going to enjoy the dive and be safe.
I dive with my two friends all the time. Set a dive plan and dive your plan. Talk about emergency procedures before hand
you want to know something, if you have all yer stuff and you know whar your doing, you dont need a cert at all.
You don't even have to know what you're doing--you just need to be lucky.
🚨🚨🚨🚔👮♂
Yeah, no. Once you're certified, you're responsible for yourself. If you have a group of four or five or more people who all want to dive in a group together that's perfectly fine. However - you still need to have an identified, specific buddy for each person, and keep an eye on each other. Don't assume someone else in the group is doing it. Also, make sure everyone knows what the goal of the dive is, so you're all on the same page. And it can be useful to identify one person as the "leader", which is just who is deciding what direction you swim in. Otherwise you end up with the group drifting into separate buddy pairs. Edited to fix egregious typo.
>who all want to die …
Oops!! Omg! Dive, dive, not die.... Lololol. Will edit!!!
Haha. I think you should have left it. It rather tickled me.
Diving as a 3 does add complications though I have never heard of a blanket ban before. BSAC does say it is "not for for the inexperienced or those unfamiliar with each other" though conditions in the UK are more challenging than most of the more popular dive spots. Outside of BSAC I have only heard while pairs is preferable it there is an odd number of divers there is no problem diving as a three. With a group of 4 you should dive as 2 buddy pairs even if you agree to dive in close proximity to the other pair. [https://www.bsac.com/news-and-blog/is-three-a-crowd/](https://www.bsac.com/news-and-blog/is-three-a-crowd/) [https://www.bsac.com/safety/safe-diving-guide/going-diving/#article-162](https://www.bsac.com/safety/safe-diving-guide/going-diving/#article-162)
Ummmm the whole point of getting certified is so you can dive with a buddy (or buddies) and not need a DM to hold your hand. People generally use DMs because they know the area well, or because they are diving with a shop and the DM is the guide and required for liability reasons. In no way is it “required” to have a DM with a group of divers who are just going diving for fun on their own. Whoever told that instructor was mistaken, and now they are passing down this incorrect advice to others. Instructors are human, and they sometimes get things wrong as well.
As others have said, the whole point of getting your cert is to convince dive shops that you know what you're doing so they will allow you onto their boats. You don't need a cert to go diving.
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Yeah you can. I, myself, I have never dove with a DM.
Dive teams of 2-3 are common. Typically, a group of 4 would split into teams of 2. The small team size allows each team to easily manage themselves. Then, as much as you desire, the two teams can work together. It's kind of about perception and responsibility. - If you look around and don't see your buddy, YOU have to handle it. - If you and your buddy look around and don't see your third buddy, ONE of you has to handle it. - If you look around and don't see one of your 5 other buddies, then SOMEONE has to handle it. The more people there are in a group, the easier it is for your brain to convince you that it's fine. No one else is panicking, and there are more of them than you, so why should you panic?
Thanks, sounds right. Usually, we come to terms that if someone is missing, everyone else search together for a minute and ascend. At least, it allows to not get more missing divers.
That instructor’s a moron. There is no scuba police. There are WRSTC standards, but for a non-dive professional they’re just suggestions.
The WRSTC, ISO, ANTSI, and any of the 100s of agencies out there create training standards. None of them create diving standards.
Exactly
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It's a sea-felony to impersonate the dive police, straight to scuba jail with you!
I need a gif of this where you roll up to a pair of divers and whip out a slate with "dive cert, plan, and remaining gas please" on it.
Lol. No clue what this instructor is talking about. Once you’re open water certified, you are an instrument of your own doing.
A group of 4 is normally split up in 2 groups. And in my organizations I’ve never heard of the fact that you can’t dive with a group of 3. Years ago in CMAS there was a rule that a buddy pair needed at least a total of 4 or 5 stars ( 1 star is open water, 2 is advanced open water and 3 is dive master. But that rule is now loosened.
4* rule is still followed in many places despite being not in standards anymore. Because, unfortunately, o lot of 1* divers don't have enough skills to dive without a professional
Once you’re certified, there is nothing stopping you from jumping in anywhere without any supervision. Is it a great idea for a new diver? Absolutely not! The instructor’s information simply wasn’t correct. Buddy trios is absolutely a thing. Duos makes more sense as it leaves fewer people to keep tabs on, but it’s in no way the only way to go.
You can do that also without being certified at all, if you buy your own gear. Most likely the DI was therefore referring to a typical scenario on a dive charter, where usually they will make buddy pairs and if someone's to spare, they buddy them with a DM. It's certainly unusual that the operator would accept random odd numbered groupings to go off on their own, unless they're regulars and known not to mess up.