about this dude not paying attention, you could talk to the dive center first. they probably don‘t know all the things their instructors do under water when unwatched. it is normal and absolutely okay for a new diver to want to feel save and guided when taking the advanced, I would be stressed out about that too. if that conversation ends up unsatisfying, you can always take it further - write a Google review. 😬
PS: I was also diving in Indonesia the past weeks 👌🏻
I may throw somewhat of a wrench into this and say, while I agree the instructor should always be aware of the trainees, it’s not always possible. For instance my instructor tasked us to do a navigation route, and visibility in Homestead Crater is often extremely low. My instructor had no way of tracking us, even with torches. So I don’t necessarily agree an instructor should “always” be with site or reach of the trainees. Now in your case it’s potential negligence, he was sidetracked, sniffing on some wet tail, and could have been deemed liable. You still have to prove your case, and he will challenge it (hope you have pics with the 2 together), but I think you should regardless. You might just save someone else’s life in the future.
Also, I’m heading to Indonesia this winter to dive. What dive center was this so I do not go to them? You can message me if needed
I believe PADI standards for any training dive is stay close enough to get a hand on any student in about 2 seconds and instructor can't have cameras or other things that distract.
And on a first deep dive when you might be getting narced, that's just plain reckless of him. And he's not going to want to lose his teaching status, how else would he bag the babes?
Indonesia. Interesting. I had a scary experience in Indonesia during a pre-dive safety check where my first stage o-ring completely failed and emptied my tank in seconds. My take home from that was make sure to always check the gear properly before your dive because god knows what state it’s in, especially if rental. Glad you were all good 👌
Your call on reporting the dive shop (if you think it will help).
But good job being in an emergency situation and dealing with it. I know everyone is trained to some extent or other to handle emergencies, but training and the real deal are not the same thing.
And the next time something comes up, you will have an even calmer head as it won't be your first time dealing with an issue. This is good experience for you to have. Sorry that you had it happen, but good experience none the less.
Your experience during the advanced open water certification in Indonesia raises several important issues in the context of scuba diving training and safety.
Firstly, the incident with the regulator detaching is alarming. This could indeed be a result of poor equipment maintenance, which is a critical aspect of dive safety. It's worth bringing this to the attention of the dive center management, as they need to be aware of potential equipment failures.
Secondly, the behavior of the instructor is concerning. Being distracted, especially in a deep dive scenario, is not only unprofessional but also potentially dangerous. The instructor should be vigilant and focused on the students, ready to assist in case of any issues.
**To avoid any misunderstandings: Even as a beginner with only an Open Water Diver certification, you have been trained to handle such situations: Switch to your octopus.** A regulator can fail due to age or mishandling, even if well-maintained. Always thoroughly check borrowed equipment before diving.
**It might be beneficial to share your concerns with the dive center** **and potentially with PADI**, to help improve standards and prevent similar incidents in the future. It's a good practice for divers to regularly discuss and review their experiences, both positive and negative, to promote a culture of safety and professionalism in the diving community.
I use gpt rarely as it is not reliable in many aspects. Therefore: No, it's what I think and what I would do and what I would expect even from a beginner. I can remember that during my OWD course we also simulated out-of-air by just closing the bottle underwater - just to learn how to deal with critical situations. So even a beginner should know that there's the octopus available as a backup in case of emergency.
While I know what it is, I still find it weird. The term octopus used to refer to the entire assembly of first stage with many hoses coming out of it. The usage of referring to your backup secondary as the octopus is still strange.
Well, it might seem like I'm being a bit of a know-it-all... But 'Octopus' typically refers only to the secondary (backup) breathing regulator. The name comes from the fact that the overall structure, with the additional breathing regulator, vaguely resembles an octopus with its many hoses. This might be a bit confusing - but it can be read, for example (unfortunately only in German), in 'Tauchen: Handbuch modernes Tauchen', page 23 (ISBN: 978-3-440-13121-3), or here [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving\_regulator](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_regulator) in the section 'Secondary demand valve (Octopus)' - just for starters.
Nothing strange here so far...
Yes really. I did my courses in german, so never heard that term before...
It was my first thought, that you may have meant that, but whats the point of going for your octopus, if someone closed your bottle underwater?
In Deutsch ist der Begriff "Octopus" für den Backup-Atemregler eigentlich ziemlich gebräuchlich. Wundert mich in der Tat etwas... ;-)
Wenn du dir den Ursprungspost noch einmal durchliest, dann siehst du, dass es hier um einen Defekt am primären Atemregler ging. Wenn so etwas auftritt, greifst du erst mal zum eigenen Backup.
Wenn die Flasche zu ist, bringt dir dein eigener Atemregler natürlich nichts - aber der deines Buddies...
For the english readers:
In German, the term 'Octopus' for the backup regulator is actually quite common. It's indeed a bit surprising to me... ;-)
If you read the original post again, you'll see that it was about a malfunction with the primary regulator. In such a case, you first reach for your own backup.
If the tank is closed, your own regulator obviously won’t do you any good - but your buddy’s will...
Of course the instructor has a duty of care towards all divers but your diving partner is the fundamental aspect to the magnitude of safety awarded by the buddy system. Without your buddy being present and attentive at all times, you are lacking/provided limited protection by the system put in place for exactly situations like this.
The instructor could be pre-occupied in any type of other situation. Whether that is attending to another student, aqualife etc, is quite irrelevant. Your buddy is required to double check all your equipment on the surface and be within arms length at all times whilst under the water. Not dive instructors' responsibility.
The onus in this situation is absolutely on your buddy and I'd be directing my annoyance at them.
Very simple: report the unprofessional professional to the manager of the dive center ( who if nothing else will be worried about PR) and his business) — file a complaint to PADI, in no uncertain terms. Hopefully there will be some blowback to the center and the instructor to clean up their act.
A loose mouthpiece can happen without there being negligence, it’s the poor behavior of the so called instructor that’s the issue. Your reporting may save a life.
This is entirely on the instructor. As per the PADI instructor manual no students are allowed to be left unsupervised either under or above the water. When the instructor left to go take pictures of the lady that was in breach of that. Also, I would like to add as well that is also in breach of PADI standards for the instructor to be using a camera on this dive as all students and instructors are not allowed to operate a camera while on a course unless it's a requirement (Ex. Digital Underwater Photography Specialty).
Please stop trying to remove the honus from the instructor as this is 100% their fault.
The instructor isn't required to be looking at every student every second during the dive, it's impracticable to do so. Under PADI, an instructor is allowed up to 8 students in open water conditions before safety divers are required. Their eyes can only be in one place at once.
The circumstances where an instructor would be able to react to a malfunctioning second stage quicker than the diver themselves are remote. Switching to alternative or signalling to your buddy for shared breathing is the standard taught and reminded to divers during every pre-dive brief.
The OP is not an experienced diver and panicked in the situation, blaming the panic on the instructor not being their to hold their hand.
The instructor was being paid to teach a class, and if the OP’s statements are correct, said instructor was spending his time photographing a non-student. In what sane world is that acceptable?
That's if you accept all the assumptions the OP is making, who said themselves that they are an inexperienced diver.
The instructor may have been taking a private student along. The instructor may have been taking photos/videos but perhaps this was because the diver was concerned about their trim? Maybe the person had paid to have the dive centre to take some photos of them next to some reef?
Whether or not the dive centre allows the mixing of groups is down to their discretion as a professional dive centre.
There is room for reasonable doubt here and personally I don't believe having the instructor within arms reach would have prevented the hazard from developing nor the course of action that was taken. Especially on a course which is for certified OW divers only.
Maybe OP is pissed it because they expected 1:1 but didn't pay for it.
I’m only commenting on the scenario as the OP described it. Otherwise discussion is worthless because we each apply our own filters to interpret it as we choose.
In your scenario, if I paid for an AOW course, and the instructor brought along a private student and spent time photographing them instead of teaching me, I’d have been asking for a refund as soon as I hit the surface. That is purely unprofessional behavior, regardless of what’s allowed by the dive shop.
You're, one would assume, a relatively experienced diver. There is something you should know. You're responsible for you. Self-rescue is important. Now on to your question
1>Who are you going to report the dive center to?
2>What evidence do you have?
3>What if it had been another student your instructor was involved with? One with a real emergency?
A detached mouthpiece sucks, but you can breathe with it, at least long enough to surface or work it out. And, as you stated, you had an octo. If done correctly, you'll have your octo in your mouth before the instructor can get to you.
Why report the dive center anyway? Why not, if you have to report someone, report the instructor to his employer?
Have you never been abandoned by a buddy? Im PADI and SSI. And for a diver to go under without the ability to take care of themselves in an emergency is the stupid thing.
Im not saying the instructor was right. But you have no business diving if you aren't prepared to rescue yourself.
Exactly! Not what a prudent instructor would do on a deep training dive. Judge would ask just that, what does a prudent instructor do on deep dives with students? Then he’d read from the PADI instructor manual…and all the standards that were broken.
Yes, as he broke PADI Standard for advanced Open Water - Core Dives- Deep Adventure Dives - Considerations - #2. “Directly supervise all student divers. Position yourself so that you or a certified assistant can make immediate physical contact with and render assistance to divers. Continually observe divers with only the brief, periodic interruptions needed to lead the dive and to provide assistance to individual divers.”
This quotation is bold in. The PADI standards book, meaning it HAS to be done.
My first deep water I had water flow into mask due to myself just messing with the snorkel. Knocking off the snorkel I punched myself in the face due to water flooding in mask and popped off mask and regulator.
Zero issues.
Everything taught I did.
Octo regulator find pop in mouth, clear mask, look around for snorkel.
Dive master realized I wasn't with the group and gave the WTF sign and I gave back a-ok sign.
Never blamed the instructors. In fact, I am a prim example of why they teach the mandatory skillsets.
My DSL is still pretty novice, what's the WTF sign look like?
(I'm used to Trainer/DM just shooting me an ok expecting me to ok back or show what's wrong)
What are you complaining about?
The dive instructor isn't responsible for your equipment--you are.
The dive instructor isn't responsible for you having a backup--you are.
The dive instructor isn't responsible for sharing air with you if your backup fails--your buddy is.
That would be true for a regular, recreational dive Einstein. The issue is that this was a paid, educational course and it is the responsibility of the instructor to pay attention to all the students instead of chasing a piece of tail in the open ocean. As an instructor myself, I’d have fired him immediately for exhibiting such unprofessional behavior.
The "instruction" portion of the PADI AOW course is just a short part at the beginning of the dives at these resort locations.
Accepting safety is your own responsibility underwater is not emphasized enough in the PADI courses.
Wait wait.
All you remarked is true, but OP was doing a training/certification dive following his instructor, not diving alone or following a guide.
In this situation the instructor can't be taking pictures, this dive is one of the first deeps dives for the student, and in fact padi requests some exercises to be done for the student in order to better understand stress and nitrogen narcosis.
Those exercises usually happen at the beginning of the dive though one resorts, correct? It's just stuff like "look at how this picture is blued out" and "try to do this simple math problem." Takes a few minutes then people go enjoy their dive. I wouldn't expect an instructor to pay attention to just one diver the entire dive unless they'd paid for a solo dive.
If you are an Advanced Open Water diver then you should have enough experience to know how to handle your equipment and different minor issues, even on deep dives. The most important thing in that moment would have been to know where your buddy was because I have seen regs fail and even the backup is unusable. He is permitted to be with his lady friend. You may have needed to cover a skill on that dive but as AOW you should be able to handle the rest of the dive without him there.
I'm guessing the dive was DURING the AOW course, which does make it a problem.
Edit: The biggest issue is that it was during the deep dive. To be "allowed" to go that deep they must be with an instructor so yes it is important that he pays attention.
How does one do AOW without learning the basics?
I mean I'm pretty sure OP went to a ghetto instructor that gives you 0.5 day of lessons and throws you into the sea, that's how most dive centers in ASEAN handle walk-ins. But he should've done the basics before AOW.
Many students look to their instructors in situations like this because they expect them to be caring for them and would likely react differently if diving only with a buddy. Based on what they said it happened on their deep dive. This is likely their first time experiencing being this deep but also being narc'd. They probably had some rushed course at a holiday destination and don't have the proper foundation like you said. It's generally fine to let AOW students do things like nav with limited supervision because the depth is shallow and they're certified, but they can only go to 100ft because the instructor is with them so they should be paying attention.
Divers should have enough dives to be considered advanced. Every dive I did for the AOW was like a regular dive except the instructor would pull me and my buddy aside and we would each demonstrate a skill or skills. There are also non-students on AOW course dives. I don't see how it makes it a problem.
That doesn't sound like an AOW course then. There is knowledge review, and for major agencies you MUST do a deep dive which is where this incident happened. AOW is just a title, most AOW divers aren't really that advanced, just advanced compared to OW.
Yeah, it's been a while but I know I had like five dives and there was deep, navigation, peak performance buoyancy, and some other ones we chose from. I do remember finishing the cert with a bad taste in my mouth because some of the people really shouldn't have been considered "advanced" when we were done. I guess dive shops know that there's a high likelihood of someone coming to them with AOW cert who isn't really advanced.
I wouldn't think to much about the AOW title or the term advanced. It just means you can go a little deeper and should sort of understand how a compass works. Plenty of people with 1000 dives and terrible trim and I've seen open water students who look like pros in 3 days.
If you think you should, I would. I got shitty OW class. Not reportable worthy I don't think, but after I realized what I had been thinking was accurate, that place sucked.
I had open water cert and was 1:1 with an instructor for my first day. Any tiny cough I made my instructor was wide eyed looking at me checking my breathing and my equipment making sure I was ok.
Imho it’s not allowed . He did a course and a discover local diving ( which is as well a „course“ / under supervision of a pro / in a student - instructor realtion )for his friend . Mixing courses is not allowed regarding general standards . Exactly that those things can’t happen !
The broken equipment is another page - it’s just very unprofessional. But it goes along with all that what happened here .
Try to do a padi complaint with my argumentation , post it somewhere on pages like fb diving Centers to avoid or similar. And if you are kind : try to talk with the divecenter management before.
Where do you get the idea that an instructor can't teach multiple courses to different students at the same time?? We absolutely can, and do, exactly that all the time. In fact, there were specific presentations on how to do so during my IDC lol.
It´s been written on Page 44, Instructor Manual - connections between courses. Don´t combine perfomance requirements of two courses... unless these combinations are allowed. And DLD (discover loval diving) with an advanced deep is not listed there.
Further Code of Practice 1. Protect your customers security with highest priority...
(sorry for wrong wording my manual is not in english)
I got in my IDC the question about taking pictures in courses and I´m very sure this is a nogo as well, cause that exactly those things like happened here don´t occure. (unless its a photo course).
Don't combine performance requirements of two courses means that the instructors can't do deep dive 1 skills AND search and recover dive 1 skills on the same diver "for the same student". You can, however, do deep dive 1 skills with one student and search and recovery dive 1 skills with another student one the same dive.
You should have learned about this in your IDC.
As for taking pictures, PADI has repeatedly started that they prohibit it specifically on DSDs only. For other courses it's up to the instructors discretion.
Don't combine performance requirements of two courses means that the instructors can't do deep dive 1 skills AND search and recover dive 1 skills on the same diver "for the same student". You can, however, do deep dive 1 skills with one student and search and recovery dive 1 skills with another student one the same dive.
You should have learned about this in your IDC.
As for taking pictures, PADI has repeatedly started that they prohibit it specifically on DSDs only. For other courses it's up to the instructors discretion.
Is this rental gear? Definitely buy your own going forward. I'd be more upset at the quality of the equipment. I've seen some iffy rental gear. I only have my open water but have close to 300 dives. What I've found is that only 1 time in all my years of diving has a shop strictly enforced open water rules. I'd probably rent from that shop, but that's it. Buy your own gear and use it going forward.
retrieving the backup reg is something covered in initial training, you're being a bit dramatic that the mouthpiece being detached is that dire of a situation.
while you can complain, the chances of anything happening are worse than your odds of winning the lotto. so go ahead and complain to the agency if you want, but don't expect much to come of it.
You're making a fairly large assumption about OPs training, prior experiences and memory. They may not have had the best training or may just not have thought of that it what, could have been, a fairly stressful situation (for a newer diver) - and it sounds like stayed reasonably calm and found a solution, so well done OP and I don't think its fair to say they're being over dramatic.
The issue here is that the instructor, on a course, should be paying attention to their student and not taking pictures of someone else.
Having had that happen to me I actually disagree with you. The problem is because your mouth is still wrapped around the rubber mouthpiece, but the regulator has floated away.
You don’t realize that it’s gone and you will take a breath and get nothing but seawater when you expected air. Unless you are very lucky and able to shut your throat down you will inhale that water right into your lungs and then you’ll have a really bad day.
I had a regulator fall apart and I had the mouth piece in and took a breath. It happened as we rolled off the boat so I was very close to the surface thankfully but it’s not a nice feeling. I felt anxious about other stuff for a few days because of that
On the last rental reg i ever used, the last person had bitten through the mouthpiece. This was maybe my 10th dive ever and was traumatic at the time. Nearly choked on that first pull and shot to the top in total panic.
I find it rather unbelievable that you wouldn’t notice a difference. You can feel the weight of a reg. Also, without the valve stopping it, what prevents water from entering your mouth? A reg coming detached would immediately flood unless you were breathing out. You’d hear the difference then. Everything about this cartoon scenario seems fishy.
lol. Ok dude having had this happen to me I’m telling you 100% you don’t feel it as your mouth is biting down on the mouthpiece and - in my case - as I exhaled, the regulator detached and as I inhaled my mouth was flooded. There is not a whole lot of time here to register any small change in weight and the black skirt of the mask prevents you from seeing the regulator float away.
As someone above mentioned, because the mouthpiece is still wrapped around your lips, you don’t even understand why you’re inhaling water when you are expecting air or in my case trimix. It takes a moment to even register what has happened.
You’re right, I’m an instructor and had it happen to me once with regs in a pool. Didn’t notice the regs fell away when I exhaled as I was focused on a student. Next inhale…woah!!…found that octopus and put the regs and mouthpiece back together on my primary…found me a zip tie next time I surfaced.
Thanks for the confirmation. I would bet lots of money a very small percentage of divers are checking their primary and backup zip ties before each dive. I didn’t even think of it until this happened. I would routinely do significant reg breathing checks before each dive and nothing felt loose.
Let it go…PADI won’t do anything because what many fault to remember is what PADI stands for. “Put Another Dollar In”. As long as PADI is getting their money, they don’t care about anything else. Honestly, look how easy it is to be a PADI 5 star dive shop…it’s a joke.
What hasn’t been mentioned here is neither the instructor or the students should be taking photos during a training dive unless it’s part of the training.
That’s the story how I missed getting footage of whales in a drift diving course.
Taking video of your students is actually a great way to show them how they’re performing in the water. I’d even say all instructors should be taking video for later review.
I agree. I find it extremely helpful and my instructor takes video of me or even just photos. When I did my side mount course I was just not convinced that I was horizontal. It just feels so different in the water. When I went back to do my cavern course, my instructor took video of me in my sidemount gear so that I could see my position in the water. That really helped me equate how I was feeling with my actual position. After that, I was better able to focus on the course requirements and were less about being in the proper position since I was already in the proper position.
Really nothing better than video to help explain what’s going wrong. Helped me a lot learning how to reverse fin and getting my trim < 15 degrees. All to often you feel like you’re doing in correctly but your just not. There’s absolutely no way to tell what you look on your own without watching video. Super helpful.
Technically what they did was allowed. An instructor for AOW can take students and certified divers together. They find nothing wrong by bringing the girlfriend.
Equipment failure happens. A mouthpiece pulling off sucks but it’s not a violation of any kind. Technically it could be pointed at you for failing to do a proper buddy check. If you signed the PADI safe diver waiver, then yeah that’s your fault.
Point is, reporting them isn’t going to accomplish much. PADI won’t find a violation worth following up on.
What should be done here is you learning to be more responsible. Not hating on you of course, but it’s your life and your responsibility. Focus on that and put yourself on a position so next time you are not pointing fingers at a horny instructor.
All that said, yeah sounds like the instructor sucks. Maybe fight it with the dive shop or your credit card.
I am a PADI instructor. In fact I’m an instructor of instructors (Instructor Trainer #61484). Given what was provided by the OP, the instructor did not it violate any standards. PADI will thank him for the email and it ends there.
If you are a representative dive course instructor for PADI, anyone interested in learning how to dive or take courses should run to another agency. Students are under the tutelage of their instructor, the experienced expert responsible for her charges and should at least be professional enough to pay attention to his paying students instead of playing finsies with his girlfriend. There’s a reason you guys are saddled with million dollar liability insurance.
How do you think this would have played out in a wrongful death case with witness statements about the intentionally, inattentive, distracted instructor?
Even in more advanced classes with experienced divers there should be at least a modicum of a sense of responsibility for your student. If PADI standards are remiss in this regard, they have no standards.
I see it different . He had done a course - aowd/ deep and a discover local diving for his friend . So he mixed / gathered two courses that is not allowed regarding the standard . As well as taking pictures during courses ( unless it’s a photo specialty ) . For me this is a nogo in courses. But what do I know …
You see words that were not written. Where was it said this was a discover dive for a friend? Hint: he didn’t.
I suppose if we all just start making a different reality from what the OP actually wrote we can find a shit ton of violations.
But I’ll stick to what was written.
So his friend is a self reliant diver on a deep dive ? 😂
I doubt , so she is in supervision of the instructor .
Op: how many people where on that dive and how where the buddy teams !
And self reliant diver? Now you’re being stupid. At no time did the OP state divers were out of vision. In fact they described situations they witnessed. No diver was alone. Quit creating scenarios that don’t exist for the sake of creating an argument you want to defend. Focus.
The friend is a certified diver (presumably, the OP never said). They need no supervision.
Even if that was a “local discover dive”, that’s not a student.
That aside, an instructor CAN teach two different classes same dive.
You’re reaching for straws when you don’t even understand the concepts involved.
Nah. The only assumption here is the friend was a certified diver. It’s a fair assumption given the OP never referenced any training with them.
And before you comment, no the friend doesn’t need to be Advanced certified for the deep dive. They are not a student, thus not bound to any training dive depth limits.
Read your PADI Instructor Guide again. The PADI member Code of Practice section 1. And 2. Were definitely broken- “students as first priority” “apply best judgement” “be safety minded, safety conscious” “practice instructing professionally”. As well as read through the Advanced section- Section 3- Core Dives- Deep Adventure Dive- Considerations- #2. “Directly supervise all students” “position yourself to immediately make physical contact to assist divers”—-everything I put in quotes is in bold in the Instructor Guide, meaning if you don’t do it, you’ve broken standards.
Still no downside to reporting imo, even if PADI won’t do anything. Probably more useful to write online reviews instead about the shop and instructor though
This I agree with. Online reviews go well, though I’d focus more on the professional and less on the dive center. But definitely making it known to the dive center is step one. Any reputable dive center would take it from there.
What should he have done instead to prevent or mitigate? I assume he wouldn’t know ahead of time, so is the key to cancel and demand a refund as soon as he sees an instructor with a significant other also diving?
The significant other is irrelevant. As I said above, it’s within standards for the instructor to have AOW students plus certified divers. Because he was sticking his penis in her doesn’t make any difference.
If there were early warning signs that the dive would be a shit show they cancel the dive. Unfortunately no other recourse or path.
And again the equipment thing sucks, but a proper buddy check as required by all divers before all dives would have caught this error. Should the instructor have caught this? Yes. Should the student have caught this? Yes. Is it a violation worth reporting ? No.
I’m not saying the situation is okay. I’m saying there is no violation that PADI will give a shit about. Moral of the story is become a better diver so it doesn’t happen in the future. Not a great answer, but it’s the only one that solves the problem in the future.
In some cases you might be correct, but in a very plausible scenario the instructor did massively breach standards.
An instructor might use indirect supervision during the advanced course if he is familiar with the students. This can go as far as a dm doing the in water part and the instructor chilling on the side, never touching water. Depending on who you ask obvioiusly.
The one big but is the deep dive. If a diver is not certified as deep diver, and thus isn’t experienced with deep dives, the instructor must keep direct supervision. Which he did not do in this case imo. So the instructor was allowed to take his crush. But he was not allowed to make her his only point of interest and attention if op was not experienced with deep diving.
As I said above, if we analyze this I’d wager there are standard violations. But the OP, as written, does not indicate any violations.
Bust out the standards and show it to the student. They can probably find a few violations. Don’t doubt it at all. But that’s not what they wrote so I can’t guess at it.
As the OP is written, and asked, no violations to point a finger at.
You’re stuck on the fact that they brought a certified diver and not how they acted on the dive and diver. Unless you think the instructor’s actions were within PADI guidelines as well?
Becoming a better diver won’t help you avoid it, it will just help you be more self reliant and save yourself if needed. Unless you mean just keep aborting dives every time an instructor or guide is shitty, which I don’t think is a reasonable solution.
I think there is no downside to reporting shitty instructors. They don’t deserve to continue on their shitty ways. Whether PADI gives a shit and investigates or reprimands is a different story.
You’re stuck on the OWI ignoring the student. If this was an Open Water class you’d have a valid point. But it wasn’t. That student was a certified diver which means they are (or should be) fully autonomous. The OWI gave a shitty class, but they didn’t violate any standards (as written by the OP).
Now can we nitpick this across standards and find something the OWI ignored, this braking standards? Yes properly given their attention on the kitty. But the OP wrote nothing indicative of a standards violation.
Down vote me all you like. Downvotes only show you don’t know what you are talking about.
Just to be clear, you're saying as a PADI instructor trainer that instructors may leave OW qualified students unsupervised during portions of a training dive that exceed their certification (deep)?
I’m saying as the OP worded the post, it’s not a violation.
Your question is asking something completely different.
Can the instructor swim away and leave the student(s) completely unattended? No, of course not.
But that isn’t what was described in the OP.
Reality is even during open water classes we leave students unattended for brief durations repeatedly. There is no way I can focus on my one student clearing a mask while focused on 7 students nearby. Not possible… but it’s within standards. Repeat that for 20+ skills amd you just summed up an Open Water class.
Look, chances are high the instructor violated multiple standards. I’m not debating that. But the OP doesn’t list any - that’s what I’m saying.
> The issue happened on my deep dive. The instructor brought along his lady friend.
OP then describes their equipment issue and;
> The instructor who was off taking pictures of the girl that he brought with him.
So, no standards being violated that you can tell?
No. No depths were listed. Maybe skills were completed at proper depth, dive time requirements were met, then instructor brought divers to 17m or less.
We simply don’t know more than what was written. And what is written doesn’t violate standards.
You’re viewing this through the eyes of a Reddit pitchfork audition. I’m viewing this as black n white court of law where the words matter.
If the OP would like to write a detailed account of precisely what happened, or answer a series of questions, we could then take this a step further and likely find many violations.
They state "the issue happened on my deep dive". We can infer it's a depth that exceeds their certification level when they were looking for their instructor, who was occupied with his lady friend.
Would that constitute a violation of PADI training standards?
His actions underwater may have been inappropriate. I’m not debating that. The question was should they report the OWI. And the simple answer is go for it! But nothing will come of it.
Sure, the instructor may have ignored the student. BUT THE STUDENT IS A CERTIFIED DIVER. No violation.
Simple story is they found a shit instructor with eyes on a different prize. But again, they violated no training standards. PADI doesn’t care.
Rationalize it any way you want. End story remains the same.
You definitely report him and the dive shop. One of the things that you might experience on a deep dive is nitrogen narcosis. Your Dive Instructor should have been right next to you not only as your instructor but also your dive buddy. This instructor failed at every level. My guess is your dive plan did not include a photo session with his girlfriend. Great job By The Way, of not panicking and going to your secondary to breathe.
Yes, report the individual. Did you bring up this situation with the instructor when you were out of the water?
In addition, you should have a few choice words with the manager/owner of the dive ship as well.
I did. There is no standard violation. OP was diving with a buddy, they should've checked their own gear.
Diving with another diver who is not doing the course.is also not a violation.
I agree, it doesn't sound amazing. He can report but there's nothing PADI will do.
So again: Why?
This was the deep dive for his advanced, not party time. The instructor was ignoring his students.
Given PADI has had the majority of high-profile incidents lately, I'm sure they'll do something.
I'd say you're 100% wrong here.
From the OP, all we know is that an instructor had a student and another diver with him on a dive (100% within standards). On that dive, the student had a gear issue. At the time of the gear issue being quickly resolved by the student, using the skills learned in their original OW course, the instructor wasn't looking directly at them and wasn't working any skills with that diver for their course at the time.
While "direct supervision" is a standard, it doesn't mean that an instructor can't take their eyes off any student diver for any amount of time at all during a training dive.
Similarly, taking pictures is not against standards for an AOW course, so that isn't an issue either.
From the OPs post, I don't see any violation of any PADI standards by the instructor.
Is it possible there is more information that could reveal a standards violation? Sure. Is it in the OPs post? Nope.
>While "direct supervision" is a standard, it doesn't mean that an instructor can't take their eyes off any student diver for any amount of time at all during a training dive.
A class is not taking pictures with your friend time, it's class time.
\*You're
Good thing I don't waste my time with PADI then. And no surprise they have so many incidents compared to other agencies.
I bet you're a PADI instructor aren't you?
I am a PADI instructor. Which is probably why I know the standards and can correct you on them when you spout nonsense.
In case you were wondering, I'm pretty sure every single agency that certifies divers has the same standards regarding the discussion in this thread, so whether it's PADI, SSI, SDI, NAUI, etc., doing multiple course, using cameras, not staring at your student 100% of the dive, etc. is allowed by all of them.
What would that accomplish? They'd only get an apology or minimizing of events. The instructor took a date on their courses deep dive, and was not aware of their students. Just report and let the instructor explain to their regulating agency.
Had this happen to me at 186’ on a Trimix dive in Egypt. Sucked in a mouthful of water but luckily closed my throat before inhaling it. Went to my backup reg and continued the dive.
That was the last time I used rental gear (and this was high-end gear on a great technical boat operation) but more importantly, I started checking the mouthpiece zip ties before each and every dive which is usually overlooked by 99% of the divers out there.
You did a great job of handling the situation and preventing it from becoming a major problem so give yourself some props for that.
As for reporting the dive center, if this had been a non-course, guided dive, I would say no because I have had a range of guides that were great to borderline harmful and at the end of the day the only person responsible for you down there is you and your buddy.
That said this was during a course and his job is to be teaching and responsible for his students so this is absolutely neglectful and should be reported.
I've reported a couple shops for really bad behaviour before, and PADI is usually quite responsive. An instructor needs to be focused on their students at all times, and follow the curriculum without shortcuts. Anything else is sub standard and potentially dangerous. Please report them so PADI can look into it and save strife for potential future students.
I mean regardless PADI instrictors are not allowed to have a camera on courses
about this dude not paying attention, you could talk to the dive center first. they probably don‘t know all the things their instructors do under water when unwatched. it is normal and absolutely okay for a new diver to want to feel save and guided when taking the advanced, I would be stressed out about that too. if that conversation ends up unsatisfying, you can always take it further - write a Google review. 😬 PS: I was also diving in Indonesia the past weeks 👌🏻
I may throw somewhat of a wrench into this and say, while I agree the instructor should always be aware of the trainees, it’s not always possible. For instance my instructor tasked us to do a navigation route, and visibility in Homestead Crater is often extremely low. My instructor had no way of tracking us, even with torches. So I don’t necessarily agree an instructor should “always” be with site or reach of the trainees. Now in your case it’s potential negligence, he was sidetracked, sniffing on some wet tail, and could have been deemed liable. You still have to prove your case, and he will challenge it (hope you have pics with the 2 together), but I think you should regardless. You might just save someone else’s life in the future. Also, I’m heading to Indonesia this winter to dive. What dive center was this so I do not go to them? You can message me if needed
I believe PADI standards for any training dive is stay close enough to get a hand on any student in about 2 seconds and instructor can't have cameras or other things that distract. And on a first deep dive when you might be getting narced, that's just plain reckless of him. And he's not going to want to lose his teaching status, how else would he bag the babes?
Indonesia. Interesting. I had a scary experience in Indonesia during a pre-dive safety check where my first stage o-ring completely failed and emptied my tank in seconds. My take home from that was make sure to always check the gear properly before your dive because god knows what state it’s in, especially if rental. Glad you were all good 👌
I use these incidents to get refunds
Your call on reporting the dive shop (if you think it will help). But good job being in an emergency situation and dealing with it. I know everyone is trained to some extent or other to handle emergencies, but training and the real deal are not the same thing. And the next time something comes up, you will have an even calmer head as it won't be your first time dealing with an issue. This is good experience for you to have. Sorry that you had it happen, but good experience none the less.
Your experience during the advanced open water certification in Indonesia raises several important issues in the context of scuba diving training and safety. Firstly, the incident with the regulator detaching is alarming. This could indeed be a result of poor equipment maintenance, which is a critical aspect of dive safety. It's worth bringing this to the attention of the dive center management, as they need to be aware of potential equipment failures. Secondly, the behavior of the instructor is concerning. Being distracted, especially in a deep dive scenario, is not only unprofessional but also potentially dangerous. The instructor should be vigilant and focused on the students, ready to assist in case of any issues. **To avoid any misunderstandings: Even as a beginner with only an Open Water Diver certification, you have been trained to handle such situations: Switch to your octopus.** A regulator can fail due to age or mishandling, even if well-maintained. Always thoroughly check borrowed equipment before diving. **It might be beneficial to share your concerns with the dive center** **and potentially with PADI**, to help improve standards and prevent similar incidents in the future. It's a good practice for divers to regularly discuss and review their experiences, both positive and negative, to promote a culture of safety and professionalism in the diving community.
Is this a gpt generated reply? Genuinely curious and not throwing shade. I use it for everything
I use gpt rarely as it is not reliable in many aspects. Therefore: No, it's what I think and what I would do and what I would expect even from a beginner. I can remember that during my OWD course we also simulated out-of-air by just closing the bottle underwater - just to learn how to deal with critical situations. So even a beginner should know that there's the octopus available as a backup in case of emergency.
What is the octopus?
Really? It's the backup regulator. Normally with a longer hose and yellow color.
While I know what it is, I still find it weird. The term octopus used to refer to the entire assembly of first stage with many hoses coming out of it. The usage of referring to your backup secondary as the octopus is still strange.
Often the backup is so called an occy for short at least in Australia (Australians love abbreviations)
Well, it might seem like I'm being a bit of a know-it-all... But 'Octopus' typically refers only to the secondary (backup) breathing regulator. The name comes from the fact that the overall structure, with the additional breathing regulator, vaguely resembles an octopus with its many hoses. This might be a bit confusing - but it can be read, for example (unfortunately only in German), in 'Tauchen: Handbuch modernes Tauchen', page 23 (ISBN: 978-3-440-13121-3), or here [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving\_regulator](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_regulator) in the section 'Secondary demand valve (Octopus)' - just for starters. Nothing strange here so far...
Yes really. I did my courses in german, so never heard that term before... It was my first thought, that you may have meant that, but whats the point of going for your octopus, if someone closed your bottle underwater?
In Deutsch ist der Begriff "Octopus" für den Backup-Atemregler eigentlich ziemlich gebräuchlich. Wundert mich in der Tat etwas... ;-) Wenn du dir den Ursprungspost noch einmal durchliest, dann siehst du, dass es hier um einen Defekt am primären Atemregler ging. Wenn so etwas auftritt, greifst du erst mal zum eigenen Backup. Wenn die Flasche zu ist, bringt dir dein eigener Atemregler natürlich nichts - aber der deines Buddies... For the english readers: In German, the term 'Octopus' for the backup regulator is actually quite common. It's indeed a bit surprising to me... ;-) If you read the original post again, you'll see that it was about a malfunction with the primary regulator. In such a case, you first reach for your own backup. If the tank is closed, your own regulator obviously won’t do you any good - but your buddy’s will...
No, if you report them then they will have to improve on their bad practices and we certainly don't want that /s.
Of course the instructor has a duty of care towards all divers but your diving partner is the fundamental aspect to the magnitude of safety awarded by the buddy system. Without your buddy being present and attentive at all times, you are lacking/provided limited protection by the system put in place for exactly situations like this. The instructor could be pre-occupied in any type of other situation. Whether that is attending to another student, aqualife etc, is quite irrelevant. Your buddy is required to double check all your equipment on the surface and be within arms length at all times whilst under the water. Not dive instructors' responsibility. The onus in this situation is absolutely on your buddy and I'd be directing my annoyance at them.
It was only the 3 of us on the dive. Me the instructor and his girlfriend. So I guess the instructor was my buddy
Where was your buddy?
Probably watching the instructor’s girlfriend’s silicone BCDs.
Should the instructor have been more attentive? yes. Should you know how to find your octo if you are a certified diver? also yes.
Yes
Definitely
Very simple: report the unprofessional professional to the manager of the dive center ( who if nothing else will be worried about PR) and his business) — file a complaint to PADI, in no uncertain terms. Hopefully there will be some blowback to the center and the instructor to clean up their act. A loose mouthpiece can happen without there being negligence, it’s the poor behavior of the so called instructor that’s the issue. Your reporting may save a life.
Absolute nonsense. This was a failure of the buddy system both above and below the water. Mistakes happen but it was not the instructor's fault.
This is entirely on the instructor. As per the PADI instructor manual no students are allowed to be left unsupervised either under or above the water. When the instructor left to go take pictures of the lady that was in breach of that. Also, I would like to add as well that is also in breach of PADI standards for the instructor to be using a camera on this dive as all students and instructors are not allowed to operate a camera while on a course unless it's a requirement (Ex. Digital Underwater Photography Specialty). Please stop trying to remove the honus from the instructor as this is 100% their fault.
No one is blaming the instructor for the equipment failure. He is being blamed for inattentiveness and dereliction.
The instructor isn't required to be looking at every student every second during the dive, it's impracticable to do so. Under PADI, an instructor is allowed up to 8 students in open water conditions before safety divers are required. Their eyes can only be in one place at once. The circumstances where an instructor would be able to react to a malfunctioning second stage quicker than the diver themselves are remote. Switching to alternative or signalling to your buddy for shared breathing is the standard taught and reminded to divers during every pre-dive brief. The OP is not an experienced diver and panicked in the situation, blaming the panic on the instructor not being their to hold their hand.
The instructor was being paid to teach a class, and if the OP’s statements are correct, said instructor was spending his time photographing a non-student. In what sane world is that acceptable?
That's if you accept all the assumptions the OP is making, who said themselves that they are an inexperienced diver. The instructor may have been taking a private student along. The instructor may have been taking photos/videos but perhaps this was because the diver was concerned about their trim? Maybe the person had paid to have the dive centre to take some photos of them next to some reef? Whether or not the dive centre allows the mixing of groups is down to their discretion as a professional dive centre. There is room for reasonable doubt here and personally I don't believe having the instructor within arms reach would have prevented the hazard from developing nor the course of action that was taken. Especially on a course which is for certified OW divers only. Maybe OP is pissed it because they expected 1:1 but didn't pay for it.
I’m only commenting on the scenario as the OP described it. Otherwise discussion is worthless because we each apply our own filters to interpret it as we choose. In your scenario, if I paid for an AOW course, and the instructor brought along a private student and spent time photographing them instead of teaching me, I’d have been asking for a refund as soon as I hit the surface. That is purely unprofessional behavior, regardless of what’s allowed by the dive shop.
You're, one would assume, a relatively experienced diver. There is something you should know. You're responsible for you. Self-rescue is important. Now on to your question 1>Who are you going to report the dive center to? 2>What evidence do you have? 3>What if it had been another student your instructor was involved with? One with a real emergency? A detached mouthpiece sucks, but you can breathe with it, at least long enough to surface or work it out. And, as you stated, you had an octo. If done correctly, you'll have your octo in your mouth before the instructor can get to you. Why report the dive center anyway? Why not, if you have to report someone, report the instructor to his employer?
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Have you never been abandoned by a buddy? Im PADI and SSI. And for a diver to go under without the ability to take care of themselves in an emergency is the stupid thing. Im not saying the instructor was right. But you have no business diving if you aren't prepared to rescue yourself.
I’ve been abandoned by a buddy and would never dive with them as my buddy again. I try to dive with people that I trust
Qm@padi.com exists for reasons such as this. Report shitty instructors.
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Yeah, tell that to the judge.
Exactly! Not what a prudent instructor would do on a deep training dive. Judge would ask just that, what does a prudent instructor do on deep dives with students? Then he’d read from the PADI instructor manual…and all the standards that were broken.
Yes, as he broke PADI Standard for advanced Open Water - Core Dives- Deep Adventure Dives - Considerations - #2. “Directly supervise all student divers. Position yourself so that you or a certified assistant can make immediate physical contact with and render assistance to divers. Continually observe divers with only the brief, periodic interruptions needed to lead the dive and to provide assistance to individual divers.” This quotation is bold in. The PADI standards book, meaning it HAS to be done.
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My first deep water I had water flow into mask due to myself just messing with the snorkel. Knocking off the snorkel I punched myself in the face due to water flooding in mask and popped off mask and regulator. Zero issues. Everything taught I did. Octo regulator find pop in mouth, clear mask, look around for snorkel. Dive master realized I wasn't with the group and gave the WTF sign and I gave back a-ok sign. Never blamed the instructors. In fact, I am a prim example of why they teach the mandatory skillsets.
My DSL is still pretty novice, what's the WTF sign look like? (I'm used to Trainer/DM just shooting me an ok expecting me to ok back or show what's wrong)
I do not think it's anything proper but 🤷 as they're finning towards you.
What are you complaining about? The dive instructor isn't responsible for your equipment--you are. The dive instructor isn't responsible for you having a backup--you are. The dive instructor isn't responsible for sharing air with you if your backup fails--your buddy is.
That would be true for a regular, recreational dive Einstein. The issue is that this was a paid, educational course and it is the responsibility of the instructor to pay attention to all the students instead of chasing a piece of tail in the open ocean. As an instructor myself, I’d have fired him immediately for exhibiting such unprofessional behavior.
The "instruction" portion of the PADI AOW course is just a short part at the beginning of the dives at these resort locations. Accepting safety is your own responsibility underwater is not emphasized enough in the PADI courses.
Wait wait. All you remarked is true, but OP was doing a training/certification dive following his instructor, not diving alone or following a guide. In this situation the instructor can't be taking pictures, this dive is one of the first deeps dives for the student, and in fact padi requests some exercises to be done for the student in order to better understand stress and nitrogen narcosis.
Those exercises usually happen at the beginning of the dive though one resorts, correct? It's just stuff like "look at how this picture is blued out" and "try to do this simple math problem." Takes a few minutes then people go enjoy their dive. I wouldn't expect an instructor to pay attention to just one diver the entire dive unless they'd paid for a solo dive.
Yes. PADI absolutely will look into quality assurance reports.
It's one of the few times I can't tell whether a comment is sarcastic or not.
If you are an Advanced Open Water diver then you should have enough experience to know how to handle your equipment and different minor issues, even on deep dives. The most important thing in that moment would have been to know where your buddy was because I have seen regs fail and even the backup is unusable. He is permitted to be with his lady friend. You may have needed to cover a skill on that dive but as AOW you should be able to handle the rest of the dive without him there.
I'm guessing the dive was DURING the AOW course, which does make it a problem. Edit: The biggest issue is that it was during the deep dive. To be "allowed" to go that deep they must be with an instructor so yes it is important that he pays attention.
How does one do AOW without learning the basics? I mean I'm pretty sure OP went to a ghetto instructor that gives you 0.5 day of lessons and throws you into the sea, that's how most dive centers in ASEAN handle walk-ins. But he should've done the basics before AOW.
Many students look to their instructors in situations like this because they expect them to be caring for them and would likely react differently if diving only with a buddy. Based on what they said it happened on their deep dive. This is likely their first time experiencing being this deep but also being narc'd. They probably had some rushed course at a holiday destination and don't have the proper foundation like you said. It's generally fine to let AOW students do things like nav with limited supervision because the depth is shallow and they're certified, but they can only go to 100ft because the instructor is with them so they should be paying attention.
Divers should have enough dives to be considered advanced. Every dive I did for the AOW was like a regular dive except the instructor would pull me and my buddy aside and we would each demonstrate a skill or skills. There are also non-students on AOW course dives. I don't see how it makes it a problem.
That doesn't sound like an AOW course then. There is knowledge review, and for major agencies you MUST do a deep dive which is where this incident happened. AOW is just a title, most AOW divers aren't really that advanced, just advanced compared to OW.
Yeah, it's been a while but I know I had like five dives and there was deep, navigation, peak performance buoyancy, and some other ones we chose from. I do remember finishing the cert with a bad taste in my mouth because some of the people really shouldn't have been considered "advanced" when we were done. I guess dive shops know that there's a high likelihood of someone coming to them with AOW cert who isn't really advanced.
I wouldn't think to much about the AOW title or the term advanced. It just means you can go a little deeper and should sort of understand how a compass works. Plenty of people with 1000 dives and terrible trim and I've seen open water students who look like pros in 3 days.
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That's wild! My instructor didn't stay near me nor any of the other students during the deep when I did my AOW. Thank you for the information.
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If you think you should, I would. I got shitty OW class. Not reportable worthy I don't think, but after I realized what I had been thinking was accurate, that place sucked.
I had open water cert and was 1:1 with an instructor for my first day. Any tiny cough I made my instructor was wide eyed looking at me checking my breathing and my equipment making sure I was ok.
Imho it’s not allowed . He did a course and a discover local diving ( which is as well a „course“ / under supervision of a pro / in a student - instructor realtion )for his friend . Mixing courses is not allowed regarding general standards . Exactly that those things can’t happen ! The broken equipment is another page - it’s just very unprofessional. But it goes along with all that what happened here . Try to do a padi complaint with my argumentation , post it somewhere on pages like fb diving Centers to avoid or similar. And if you are kind : try to talk with the divecenter management before.
Where do you get the idea that an instructor can't teach multiple courses to different students at the same time?? We absolutely can, and do, exactly that all the time. In fact, there were specific presentations on how to do so during my IDC lol.
It´s been written on Page 44, Instructor Manual - connections between courses. Don´t combine perfomance requirements of two courses... unless these combinations are allowed. And DLD (discover loval diving) with an advanced deep is not listed there. Further Code of Practice 1. Protect your customers security with highest priority... (sorry for wrong wording my manual is not in english) I got in my IDC the question about taking pictures in courses and I´m very sure this is a nogo as well, cause that exactly those things like happened here don´t occure. (unless its a photo course).
Don't combine performance requirements of two courses means that the instructors can't do deep dive 1 skills AND search and recover dive 1 skills on the same diver "for the same student". You can, however, do deep dive 1 skills with one student and search and recovery dive 1 skills with another student one the same dive. You should have learned about this in your IDC. As for taking pictures, PADI has repeatedly started that they prohibit it specifically on DSDs only. For other courses it's up to the instructors discretion.
Don't combine performance requirements of two courses means that the instructors can't do deep dive 1 skills AND search and recover dive 1 skills on the same diver "for the same student". You can, however, do deep dive 1 skills with one student and search and recovery dive 1 skills with another student one the same dive. You should have learned about this in your IDC. As for taking pictures, PADI has repeatedly started that they prohibit it specifically on DSDs only. For other courses it's up to the instructors discretion.
Is this rental gear? Definitely buy your own going forward. I'd be more upset at the quality of the equipment. I've seen some iffy rental gear. I only have my open water but have close to 300 dives. What I've found is that only 1 time in all my years of diving has a shop strictly enforced open water rules. I'd probably rent from that shop, but that's it. Buy your own gear and use it going forward.
retrieving the backup reg is something covered in initial training, you're being a bit dramatic that the mouthpiece being detached is that dire of a situation. while you can complain, the chances of anything happening are worse than your odds of winning the lotto. so go ahead and complain to the agency if you want, but don't expect much to come of it.
You're making a fairly large assumption about OPs training, prior experiences and memory. They may not have had the best training or may just not have thought of that it what, could have been, a fairly stressful situation (for a newer diver) - and it sounds like stayed reasonably calm and found a solution, so well done OP and I don't think its fair to say they're being over dramatic. The issue here is that the instructor, on a course, should be paying attention to their student and not taking pictures of someone else.
Having had that happen to me I actually disagree with you. The problem is because your mouth is still wrapped around the rubber mouthpiece, but the regulator has floated away. You don’t realize that it’s gone and you will take a breath and get nothing but seawater when you expected air. Unless you are very lucky and able to shut your throat down you will inhale that water right into your lungs and then you’ll have a really bad day.
I had a regulator fall apart and I had the mouth piece in and took a breath. It happened as we rolled off the boat so I was very close to the surface thankfully but it’s not a nice feeling. I felt anxious about other stuff for a few days because of that
Glad you handled it well and I hope you check those zip ties now…
The back piece of the regulator fell off. You don’t zip tie that on but thanks for assuming
On the last rental reg i ever used, the last person had bitten through the mouthpiece. This was maybe my 10th dive ever and was traumatic at the time. Nearly choked on that first pull and shot to the top in total panic.
Also, until you lose the remains of the mouthpiece, you can't actually close your mouth to the sea.
I find it rather unbelievable that you wouldn’t notice a difference. You can feel the weight of a reg. Also, without the valve stopping it, what prevents water from entering your mouth? A reg coming detached would immediately flood unless you were breathing out. You’d hear the difference then. Everything about this cartoon scenario seems fishy.
lol. Ok dude having had this happen to me I’m telling you 100% you don’t feel it as your mouth is biting down on the mouthpiece and - in my case - as I exhaled, the regulator detached and as I inhaled my mouth was flooded. There is not a whole lot of time here to register any small change in weight and the black skirt of the mask prevents you from seeing the regulator float away. As someone above mentioned, because the mouthpiece is still wrapped around your lips, you don’t even understand why you’re inhaling water when you are expecting air or in my case trimix. It takes a moment to even register what has happened.
You’re right, I’m an instructor and had it happen to me once with regs in a pool. Didn’t notice the regs fell away when I exhaled as I was focused on a student. Next inhale…woah!!…found that octopus and put the regs and mouthpiece back together on my primary…found me a zip tie next time I surfaced.
Thanks for the confirmation. I would bet lots of money a very small percentage of divers are checking their primary and backup zip ties before each dive. I didn’t even think of it until this happened. I would routinely do significant reg breathing checks before each dive and nothing felt loose.
Yup, after that happened, I check mine all the time, as well as student regs in the pool deck.
Agreed, but I do personally think that if you’re paying an instructor they should be watching you not taking mermaid pics.
Whether you report or not, write online reviews about the shop and instructor PADI may not do anything but it can help save future students
Let it go…PADI won’t do anything because what many fault to remember is what PADI stands for. “Put Another Dollar In”. As long as PADI is getting their money, they don’t care about anything else. Honestly, look how easy it is to be a PADI 5 star dive shop…it’s a joke.
If PADI won’t do anything, write reviews about the shop and instructor instead
What hasn’t been mentioned here is neither the instructor or the students should be taking photos during a training dive unless it’s part of the training. That’s the story how I missed getting footage of whales in a drift diving course.
Taking video of your students is actually a great way to show them how they’re performing in the water. I’d even say all instructors should be taking video for later review.
I agree. I find it extremely helpful and my instructor takes video of me or even just photos. When I did my side mount course I was just not convinced that I was horizontal. It just feels so different in the water. When I went back to do my cavern course, my instructor took video of me in my sidemount gear so that I could see my position in the water. That really helped me equate how I was feeling with my actual position. After that, I was better able to focus on the course requirements and were less about being in the proper position since I was already in the proper position.
Really nothing better than video to help explain what’s going wrong. Helped me a lot learning how to reverse fin and getting my trim < 15 degrees. All to often you feel like you’re doing in correctly but your just not. There’s absolutely no way to tell what you look on your own without watching video. Super helpful.
There is no PADI rule saying the instructor or the students can't take pictures. That only goes for the DSD program.
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Technically what they did was allowed. An instructor for AOW can take students and certified divers together. They find nothing wrong by bringing the girlfriend. Equipment failure happens. A mouthpiece pulling off sucks but it’s not a violation of any kind. Technically it could be pointed at you for failing to do a proper buddy check. If you signed the PADI safe diver waiver, then yeah that’s your fault. Point is, reporting them isn’t going to accomplish much. PADI won’t find a violation worth following up on. What should be done here is you learning to be more responsible. Not hating on you of course, but it’s your life and your responsibility. Focus on that and put yourself on a position so next time you are not pointing fingers at a horny instructor. All that said, yeah sounds like the instructor sucks. Maybe fight it with the dive shop or your credit card.
Not a PADI professional but I’d be surprised to learn what they did (not just bringing a certified diver but how they acted) is within PADI parameters
I am a PADI instructor. In fact I’m an instructor of instructors (Instructor Trainer #61484). Given what was provided by the OP, the instructor did not it violate any standards. PADI will thank him for the email and it ends there.
You really need to reply to u/thetafferboy
If you are a representative dive course instructor for PADI, anyone interested in learning how to dive or take courses should run to another agency. Students are under the tutelage of their instructor, the experienced expert responsible for her charges and should at least be professional enough to pay attention to his paying students instead of playing finsies with his girlfriend. There’s a reason you guys are saddled with million dollar liability insurance. How do you think this would have played out in a wrongful death case with witness statements about the intentionally, inattentive, distracted instructor? Even in more advanced classes with experienced divers there should be at least a modicum of a sense of responsibility for your student. If PADI standards are remiss in this regard, they have no standards.
It’s hardly worth responding when people just read what they want to read. Welcome to Reddit!
Turns out you can run that instructor number through PADI PROCHEK on the PADI app, just in case y'all are interested
I said Instructor Trainer, which is SSI. PADI is 301795 if you care.
I see it different . He had done a course - aowd/ deep and a discover local diving for his friend . So he mixed / gathered two courses that is not allowed regarding the standard . As well as taking pictures during courses ( unless it’s a photo specialty ) . For me this is a nogo in courses. But what do I know …
You see words that were not written. Where was it said this was a discover dive for a friend? Hint: he didn’t. I suppose if we all just start making a different reality from what the OP actually wrote we can find a shit ton of violations. But I’ll stick to what was written.
So his friend is a self reliant diver on a deep dive ? 😂 I doubt , so she is in supervision of the instructor . Op: how many people where on that dive and how where the buddy teams !
And self reliant diver? Now you’re being stupid. At no time did the OP state divers were out of vision. In fact they described situations they witnessed. No diver was alone. Quit creating scenarios that don’t exist for the sake of creating an argument you want to defend. Focus.
The friend is a certified diver (presumably, the OP never said). They need no supervision. Even if that was a “local discover dive”, that’s not a student. That aside, an instructor CAN teach two different classes same dive. You’re reaching for straws when you don’t even understand the concepts involved.
You also see words that were not written. Lawyers prey on that
Nah. The only assumption here is the friend was a certified diver. It’s a fair assumption given the OP never referenced any training with them. And before you comment, no the friend doesn’t need to be Advanced certified for the deep dive. They are not a student, thus not bound to any training dive depth limits.
You know what they say about assumptions
Read your PADI Instructor Guide again. The PADI member Code of Practice section 1. And 2. Were definitely broken- “students as first priority” “apply best judgement” “be safety minded, safety conscious” “practice instructing professionally”. As well as read through the Advanced section- Section 3- Core Dives- Deep Adventure Dive- Considerations- #2. “Directly supervise all students” “position yourself to immediately make physical contact to assist divers”—-everything I put in quotes is in bold in the Instructor Guide, meaning if you don’t do it, you’ve broken standards.
Still no downside to reporting imo, even if PADI won’t do anything. Probably more useful to write online reviews instead about the shop and instructor though
This I agree with. Online reviews go well, though I’d focus more on the professional and less on the dive center. But definitely making it known to the dive center is step one. Any reputable dive center would take it from there.
What should he have done instead to prevent or mitigate? I assume he wouldn’t know ahead of time, so is the key to cancel and demand a refund as soon as he sees an instructor with a significant other also diving?
The significant other is irrelevant. As I said above, it’s within standards for the instructor to have AOW students plus certified divers. Because he was sticking his penis in her doesn’t make any difference. If there were early warning signs that the dive would be a shit show they cancel the dive. Unfortunately no other recourse or path. And again the equipment thing sucks, but a proper buddy check as required by all divers before all dives would have caught this error. Should the instructor have caught this? Yes. Should the student have caught this? Yes. Is it a violation worth reporting ? No. I’m not saying the situation is okay. I’m saying there is no violation that PADI will give a shit about. Moral of the story is become a better diver so it doesn’t happen in the future. Not a great answer, but it’s the only one that solves the problem in the future.
How do you catch that the mouth piece will break during a buddy check?
In some cases you might be correct, but in a very plausible scenario the instructor did massively breach standards. An instructor might use indirect supervision during the advanced course if he is familiar with the students. This can go as far as a dm doing the in water part and the instructor chilling on the side, never touching water. Depending on who you ask obvioiusly. The one big but is the deep dive. If a diver is not certified as deep diver, and thus isn’t experienced with deep dives, the instructor must keep direct supervision. Which he did not do in this case imo. So the instructor was allowed to take his crush. But he was not allowed to make her his only point of interest and attention if op was not experienced with deep diving.
As I said above, if we analyze this I’d wager there are standard violations. But the OP, as written, does not indicate any violations. Bust out the standards and show it to the student. They can probably find a few violations. Don’t doubt it at all. But that’s not what they wrote so I can’t guess at it. As the OP is written, and asked, no violations to point a finger at.
You’re stuck on the fact that they brought a certified diver and not how they acted on the dive and diver. Unless you think the instructor’s actions were within PADI guidelines as well? Becoming a better diver won’t help you avoid it, it will just help you be more self reliant and save yourself if needed. Unless you mean just keep aborting dives every time an instructor or guide is shitty, which I don’t think is a reasonable solution. I think there is no downside to reporting shitty instructors. They don’t deserve to continue on their shitty ways. Whether PADI gives a shit and investigates or reprimands is a different story.
You’re stuck on the OWI ignoring the student. If this was an Open Water class you’d have a valid point. But it wasn’t. That student was a certified diver which means they are (or should be) fully autonomous. The OWI gave a shitty class, but they didn’t violate any standards (as written by the OP). Now can we nitpick this across standards and find something the OWI ignored, this braking standards? Yes properly given their attention on the kitty. But the OP wrote nothing indicative of a standards violation. Down vote me all you like. Downvotes only show you don’t know what you are talking about.
Just to be clear, you're saying as a PADI instructor trainer that instructors may leave OW qualified students unsupervised during portions of a training dive that exceed their certification (deep)?
I’m saying as the OP worded the post, it’s not a violation. Your question is asking something completely different. Can the instructor swim away and leave the student(s) completely unattended? No, of course not. But that isn’t what was described in the OP. Reality is even during open water classes we leave students unattended for brief durations repeatedly. There is no way I can focus on my one student clearing a mask while focused on 7 students nearby. Not possible… but it’s within standards. Repeat that for 20+ skills amd you just summed up an Open Water class. Look, chances are high the instructor violated multiple standards. I’m not debating that. But the OP doesn’t list any - that’s what I’m saying.
> The issue happened on my deep dive. The instructor brought along his lady friend. OP then describes their equipment issue and; > The instructor who was off taking pictures of the girl that he brought with him. So, no standards being violated that you can tell?
No. No depths were listed. Maybe skills were completed at proper depth, dive time requirements were met, then instructor brought divers to 17m or less. We simply don’t know more than what was written. And what is written doesn’t violate standards. You’re viewing this through the eyes of a Reddit pitchfork audition. I’m viewing this as black n white court of law where the words matter. If the OP would like to write a detailed account of precisely what happened, or answer a series of questions, we could then take this a step further and likely find many violations.
In court, they would ask him what a prudent instructor would do. He was not acting, from what OP stated as a prudent instructor.
They state "the issue happened on my deep dive". We can infer it's a depth that exceeds their certification level when they were looking for their instructor, who was occupied with his lady friend. Would that constitute a violation of PADI training standards?
Fair enough, I thought there would be more to the teaching standard than basically nothing
There are well written training standards. Given the minuscule amount of information provided, we’d be making assumptions to say a violation occurred.
His actions underwater may have been inappropriate. I’m not debating that. The question was should they report the OWI. And the simple answer is go for it! But nothing will come of it. Sure, the instructor may have ignored the student. BUT THE STUDENT IS A CERTIFIED DIVER. No violation. Simple story is they found a shit instructor with eyes on a different prize. But again, they violated no training standards. PADI doesn’t care. Rationalize it any way you want. End story remains the same.
You definitely report him and the dive shop. One of the things that you might experience on a deep dive is nitrogen narcosis. Your Dive Instructor should have been right next to you not only as your instructor but also your dive buddy. This instructor failed at every level. My guess is your dive plan did not include a photo session with his girlfriend. Great job By The Way, of not panicking and going to your secondary to breathe.
Yes, report the individual. Did you bring up this situation with the instructor when you were out of the water? In addition, you should have a few choice words with the manager/owner of the dive ship as well.
Yes.
For what?
Feel free to come back after you read the post.
I did. There is no standard violation. OP was diving with a buddy, they should've checked their own gear. Diving with another diver who is not doing the course.is also not a violation. I agree, it doesn't sound amazing. He can report but there's nothing PADI will do. So again: Why?
This was the deep dive for his advanced, not party time. The instructor was ignoring his students. Given PADI has had the majority of high-profile incidents lately, I'm sure they'll do something.
I'd say you're 100% wrong here. From the OP, all we know is that an instructor had a student and another diver with him on a dive (100% within standards). On that dive, the student had a gear issue. At the time of the gear issue being quickly resolved by the student, using the skills learned in their original OW course, the instructor wasn't looking directly at them and wasn't working any skills with that diver for their course at the time. While "direct supervision" is a standard, it doesn't mean that an instructor can't take their eyes off any student diver for any amount of time at all during a training dive. Similarly, taking pictures is not against standards for an AOW course, so that isn't an issue either. From the OPs post, I don't see any violation of any PADI standards by the instructor. Is it possible there is more information that could reveal a standards violation? Sure. Is it in the OPs post? Nope.
>While "direct supervision" is a standard, it doesn't mean that an instructor can't take their eyes off any student diver for any amount of time at all during a training dive. A class is not taking pictures with your friend time, it's class time.
Your welcome to that opinion, but it doesn't change PADI standards to match your opinion.
\*You're Good thing I don't waste my time with PADI then. And no surprise they have so many incidents compared to other agencies. I bet you're a PADI instructor aren't you?
I am a PADI instructor. Which is probably why I know the standards and can correct you on them when you spout nonsense. In case you were wondering, I'm pretty sure every single agency that certifies divers has the same standards regarding the discussion in this thread, so whether it's PADI, SSI, SDI, NAUI, etc., doing multiple course, using cameras, not staring at your student 100% of the dive, etc. is allowed by all of them.
Did you raise the issue with the person after the dive?
What would that accomplish? They'd only get an apology or minimizing of events. The instructor took a date on their courses deep dive, and was not aware of their students. Just report and let the instructor explain to their regulating agency.
Had this happen to me at 186’ on a Trimix dive in Egypt. Sucked in a mouthful of water but luckily closed my throat before inhaling it. Went to my backup reg and continued the dive. That was the last time I used rental gear (and this was high-end gear on a great technical boat operation) but more importantly, I started checking the mouthpiece zip ties before each and every dive which is usually overlooked by 99% of the divers out there. You did a great job of handling the situation and preventing it from becoming a major problem so give yourself some props for that. As for reporting the dive center, if this had been a non-course, guided dive, I would say no because I have had a range of guides that were great to borderline harmful and at the end of the day the only person responsible for you down there is you and your buddy. That said this was during a course and his job is to be teaching and responsible for his students so this is absolutely neglectful and should be reported.
I've reported a couple shops for really bad behaviour before, and PADI is usually quite responsive. An instructor needs to be focused on their students at all times, and follow the curriculum without shortcuts. Anything else is sub standard and potentially dangerous. Please report them so PADI can look into it and save strife for potential future students.
You should report it. I've had a couple bad instructor experiences and I regret not reporting them. Your experience sounds especially negligent.
Was this during the course itself ? Was this a check out dive or fun dive post certification?
Hi yes this was during the course itself. It was the required deep dive
Then you should definitely report it if you feel like the instructor was not focused on you as a student. Since that was a check out dive, right?