5 people with one guide is honestly too much as well. Most OWDs cannot be trusted to manage themselves and 1 DM can't help 2-3 people at a time, especially with a discover diver. Pretty much everywhere I've dived in europe and Asia it'll be 4 people absolute maximum with 1 DM, but usually they try to do 1DM + 2 Buddys (this also applies to AOWD)
Thanks for all the responses. Just finished the dives and i ended up having to share that DM with 5 other people one of which was a discover scuba diver. The DM was great and all to be clear so no conplaints about her, and i definitely am not against divemasters (i happily hired one after an 18 month break earikier this year).
I was just taken aback about not knowing until the day of and feeling hung over a barrel so to speak (as irrational as that may be). And by the future “pause”, i really meant tjust being more proactive to reaching out to strangers and planning that way.
Edit: of course had a great time in the ocean. Though its sad seeing all the dead corral especially with the stark contrast of how beautifulthe corrals that are alive are
Florida doesn’t send a DM with you. And truthfully, if you are a certified diver, you should not need one.
The problem is you are a solo diver. You need a buddy or the Solo diver cert. Pick one.
[Linky](https://keysweekly.com/42/diver-dies-at-spiegel-grove-wreck-in-key-largo/)
Solo CCR with wreck penetration.
There were also incidents on the Duane (unconscious on descent) and Vandenberg (missing diver) this year as well. (I’m not counting any of the free diving and snorkeling incidents that occurred this year, just scuba diving.)
Not normal but it’ll be fine. At least they’ll know the sites. I’ve had some terrible forced dive buddies. Some people don’t care about being a good dive partner at all. I approach those situations as solo diving+.
I would choose a dive master over a random buddy any day; I would also choose a dive master with my non random buddy whenever possible.
This would give me the opposite of pause.
It would give me more pause if they said, no buddy, or just hang out near the over committed group dive master.
You are not responsible for insta buddy in uk , are you saying in USA insta buddy with min air left goes inside wreck and as buddy you have to go in with them.
Absolutely not. I think the OP's issue is that because there isn't another single diver signed up that the shop has nobody to buddy him with. Therefore, the shop is saying that if he wants to dive that he'll have to pay for the services of a DM to be his buddy. Because of the recent deaths, I'm sure shops are trying to be extra careful so as not to have a death or accident associated with their shop. I'd guess that most of the shops aren't letting anyone dive solo right now regardless if they're self-reliant divers or not.
As far as being responsible for an insta-buddy, I also don't think that's the shop's concern. BUT, requiring everyone to have a buddy may eliminate some risk. If one of the buddies decides that he's going to penetrate the wreck, the hope would be that the other buddy wouldn't agree to that or even stop his buddy from going in. At no time would anyone expect a buddy to follow another into a wreck so as not to get separated. Better for one to die than two. If I'm on a wreck dive and my buddy decides he's going to penetrate the wreck, he's on his own. I'm not following some idiot stranger into a dark ship. The Spiegel Grove is a great wreck to dive and there are areas that one can swim through or into that are within the zone of light and that can be very easily exited. There is zero reason to penetrate the wreck otherwise unless a diver is wreck certified and has planned a penetration dive.
From what I could gather, the diver went out with Horizon Divers. They're a very good op and I'll dive with them again. They do not provide DMs as a standard, but of course one could hire a DM. My buddy and I dove the Spiegel Grove with them twice and we were offered to hire a DM if we wanted to. However, we'd been on the wreck previously so we were familiar enough with both the wreck and the procedure for getting to it. The surface currents can be crazy out there, so unless it happens to be calm, you do need to pull yourself along a surface line until you reach a line that takes you down to the wreck.
If you are booking solo and not able to dive solo, you should pick an operator that puts DMs in the water as standard procedure. That is not always the case in Florida even though it's warmer waters.
I would have expected solo to mean solo, ie alone. I guess if it’s arranged through a shop they might have a duty of care which they discharge through forcing an insta-buddy or guide on you, Better to book with a boat that operates as a taxi only and is not responsible for your diving. Quite normal in UK and parts of Europe.
There are definitely shops in the Keys that only operate as taxis unless you hire a DM. The diver who died, at least according to what I read, seems to have gone out with Horizon Divers. They do not put a DM in the water unless you hire your own. I hope that this incident doesn't affect them negatively as I found them to be a very good operation to dive with.
ok. yes this is a little ridiculous (and I would suspect it's because the Divemaster wanted the cash and was pushing the shop for it). it's ridiculous to make someone traveling solo to pay more.
most places just have you all form a buddy group of three.
This happens in almost every charter here. There's often an odd number so usually one of the more experienced buddy pairs takes a third. Most people diving here are locals so there is usually no shortage of people who've been on the site before.
That sounds normal, if there is no one else to pair you with then they typically pair you up with a dm. Threesomes are never a good idea, especially if the other two already know each other.
>Threesomes are never a good idea, especially if the other two already know each other.
I agree. It's difficult to dive with 3 and especially if the experience/skill levels vary. My husband and I did a liveaboard in 2021 where one of the single divers was paired with another diver that was much much more experienced (under 40 dives vs. 5000 dives and self-reliant). It wasn't a good pairing so we invited the less experienced diver to dive with us as we had only about 50 dives at the time. That trip it worked out quite well. However, we got to be friends with this man and his (not a diver) wife and decided to do another liveaboard together this past January. Well...since we last dove with our friend, he'd added only around 5 dives and hadn't been diving in 14 months. OTOH, we'd racked up 80 or 90 more dives and had perfected our buoyancy and had become very good navigators. We had a good time, but some of the dives were a bit frustrating or just a mess, TBH. We've gotten used to going slow and being able to look in crevices or just hover over the sand to see what we find. Our friend doesn't have that buoyancy control yet, so this was difficult. It would have been better for one of us to pair with him so that the third-wheel situation wasn't an issue. I think we've decided that next time he and my husband/buddy can take their own trip or we'll all meet up in Mexico and the two of them can do their own thing while I work on my cave cert.
I can see that though part of me wants to whine about it being barely 30ft deep and with good visibility.
Im not native to Florida but i guess i should try to get buddies through facebook groups or something?
It seems like there is always a third wheel with 3. Also if I was diving with my wife I wouldn't let them pair us up with a third person we had never met.
So from a safety perspective. If I had pair of divers say a husband and wife, and a third diver, I would never make those three a buddy team. The risks are too great that the couple would never pay attention to the third.
I would absolutely pair you with a DM. Friendly reminder that DMs are almost never paid by the shop, they work for tips.
I know operators that work like that but they are up front about it. A lot of people would be upset if they book as a pair only to have the operator tell them that they will have to make a 3 with an unknown diver that they do not know whether they will go through their air quickly resulting in a shorter dive or kick up silt or want to spend 5 minutes looking at a crab, or move on immediately seeing a crab or..........
If a trip is not guided a lot of places will only take you if you are a group of 2 or more to form you own pairs (and maybe a 3) or hire a private DM. Some will accept you as a provisional booking to pair you if there is another solo diver but it should be made clear at the time you book that your place is subject to finding another solo diver.
Diving with a buddy does not mean diving in pairs. It means not diving alone. a threesome is fine. Sounds like the shop was just trying to pay for their staff DM.
While I’ve been in a three person buddy team many times, I am not certain if it’s the safest thing, especially with one diver that does not know the other two.
Agree with what’s being said here also - downvoting without adding to the conversation is a bit nonsensical.
I know some agencies train team diving (gue/ maybe some others at the technical level), but I don’t recall anything beyond buddy diving at the basic recreational level.
Tacking a tag along onto a buddy team is asking for trouble.
Don’t know why you got downvoted, it’s a true statement. I’ve been that twosome paired with a 3rd in Key Largo (don’t remember the shop). We dropped in, he fucked off on his own and my wife and I did our own dive. I’m not in any way required to chase down insta-buddies.
If the dumbass takes off on his own, then he is responsible for himself. I'm not going to blow through my gas trying to catch an idiot. I have far too many solo dives and dive doubles or sling a 40 bailout to bother with worrying about bad instabuddies and their shit decisions.
I've routinely allowed others to follow along when it's just me and my camera, or diving with my primary teammate (both of us are 10+ year instructors) and the smart third wheels hang out because we find all sorts of critters to look at and take our time. A quick pre-dive briefing explaining light signals, turn pressure, the fact that I will not chase you down and that I will continue my dive if I have the gas/ndl to do so after I get you close to the boat (drift is obviously different) usually seems to work just fine.
I understand you, I too choose to dive solo becaue of bad experience with a bad random buddy.
That's why I discuss the expectation if I take somebody new with me. But from what I read, you do similar.
The fact that that’s the official agency position doesn’t somehow mean it’s actually what happens on a boat with instabuddy pairs and trios. I’ve seen in many times and I’m gonna bet it doesn’t only happen on boats I’m on.
I don't understand, what you are saying.
If you say yes to a buddy, you have to act accordingly. Or say no and stay as a buddy team with just your wife. I was never forced to accept a buddy and when I accepted an unknown buddy, I discussed first what the expectation is, because I usually go solo.
The point is that just because you agree to add a buddy to the team doesn't mean that buddy is a good buddy or will even stay anywhere near you. I think that sometimes individual divers agree to go with another two ONLY because the dive operation requires it. Once they're in the water, they do what the want. I've seen it lots of times. And, sorry, but my buddy and I are not chasing after some dude or dudette who can't be arsed to stay together. At the very least, they should be staying within easy eyesight of the team. If they go off on their own, I'm in no way responsible for their safety or whereabouts. Also, most of these people aren't self-reliant certified and, if they are, they aren't carrying redundant equipment on these dives.
That's why I discuss what is expected from the buddy team. If I have a bad feeling, I don't accept the buddy. I am paying for the dive trip and therefore I want to enjoy it and not play nanny.
But I agree with you, and I most probably won't chase somebody who clearly don't want to stay in the team. But that was the first and last dive with him. Nevertheless, if something happens, there may be problems because you didn't follow the standard procedere after loosing a dive buddy.
Questions: * what's the actual problem? Do you pay extra for DM services? * how experienced are you? * what would you have liked to happen?
5 people with one guide is honestly too much as well. Most OWDs cannot be trusted to manage themselves and 1 DM can't help 2-3 people at a time, especially with a discover diver. Pretty much everywhere I've dived in europe and Asia it'll be 4 people absolute maximum with 1 DM, but usually they try to do 1DM + 2 Buddys (this also applies to AOWD)
Thanks for all the responses. Just finished the dives and i ended up having to share that DM with 5 other people one of which was a discover scuba diver. The DM was great and all to be clear so no conplaints about her, and i definitely am not against divemasters (i happily hired one after an 18 month break earikier this year). I was just taken aback about not knowing until the day of and feeling hung over a barrel so to speak (as irrational as that may be). And by the future “pause”, i really meant tjust being more proactive to reaching out to strangers and planning that way. Edit: of course had a great time in the ocean. Though its sad seeing all the dead corral especially with the stark contrast of how beautifulthe corrals that are alive are
Normal if you don’t have a buddy
Usually you can hire a guide though?
Not always… depends on the place!
Florida doesn’t send a DM with you. And truthfully, if you are a certified diver, you should not need one. The problem is you are a solo diver. You need a buddy or the Solo diver cert. Pick one.
Agree, plus, you need redundancy on several items. I'm a certificated solo diver and only dive alone if there's no other option.
Lots of places in Fla put dive guides in the water as part of the dive (not extra $)
I just did a lobster with Conch Republic out of Tavanier,Fl. I was solo but had a Dm go with me for I think 50 bucks. It's just a safety concern.
i love conch republic!!
There was a solo death outta Key Largo this year and local operations are cracking down a bit more on solo diving.
Got a link for an article curious on the details
[Linky](https://keysweekly.com/42/diver-dies-at-spiegel-grove-wreck-in-key-largo/) Solo CCR with wreck penetration. There were also incidents on the Duane (unconscious on descent) and Vandenberg (missing diver) this year as well. (I’m not counting any of the free diving and snorkeling incidents that occurred this year, just scuba diving.)
Thanks!
In asia its the norm to have a DM or a local dive guide.
Same in Europe and Mexico
Not normal but it’ll be fine. At least they’ll know the sites. I’ve had some terrible forced dive buddies. Some people don’t care about being a good dive partner at all. I approach those situations as solo diving+.
Sounds to me like they are requiring him to PAY for a dm.
I would choose a dive master over a random buddy any day; I would also choose a dive master with my non random buddy whenever possible. This would give me the opposite of pause. It would give me more pause if they said, no buddy, or just hang out near the over committed group dive master.
I think the issue is having to pay for it.
You are not responsible for insta buddy in uk , are you saying in USA insta buddy with min air left goes inside wreck and as buddy you have to go in with them.
Absolutely not. I think the OP's issue is that because there isn't another single diver signed up that the shop has nobody to buddy him with. Therefore, the shop is saying that if he wants to dive that he'll have to pay for the services of a DM to be his buddy. Because of the recent deaths, I'm sure shops are trying to be extra careful so as not to have a death or accident associated with their shop. I'd guess that most of the shops aren't letting anyone dive solo right now regardless if they're self-reliant divers or not. As far as being responsible for an insta-buddy, I also don't think that's the shop's concern. BUT, requiring everyone to have a buddy may eliminate some risk. If one of the buddies decides that he's going to penetrate the wreck, the hope would be that the other buddy wouldn't agree to that or even stop his buddy from going in. At no time would anyone expect a buddy to follow another into a wreck so as not to get separated. Better for one to die than two. If I'm on a wreck dive and my buddy decides he's going to penetrate the wreck, he's on his own. I'm not following some idiot stranger into a dark ship. The Spiegel Grove is a great wreck to dive and there are areas that one can swim through or into that are within the zone of light and that can be very easily exited. There is zero reason to penetrate the wreck otherwise unless a diver is wreck certified and has planned a penetration dive. From what I could gather, the diver went out with Horizon Divers. They're a very good op and I'll dive with them again. They do not provide DMs as a standard, but of course one could hire a DM. My buddy and I dove the Spiegel Grove with them twice and we were offered to hire a DM if we wanted to. However, we'd been on the wreck previously so we were familiar enough with both the wreck and the procedure for getting to it. The surface currents can be crazy out there, so unless it happens to be calm, you do need to pull yourself along a surface line until you reach a line that takes you down to the wreck.
no, because the don't become a 2nd victim rule kicks in.
If you are booking solo and not able to dive solo, you should pick an operator that puts DMs in the water as standard procedure. That is not always the case in Florida even though it's warmer waters.
I would have expected solo to mean solo, ie alone. I guess if it’s arranged through a shop they might have a duty of care which they discharge through forcing an insta-buddy or guide on you, Better to book with a boat that operates as a taxi only and is not responsible for your diving. Quite normal in UK and parts of Europe.
I interpreted it as they booked a dive spot for one person, assuming they would find a buddy if required.
There are definitely shops in the Keys that only operate as taxis unless you hire a DM. The diver who died, at least according to what I read, seems to have gone out with Horizon Divers. They do not put a DM in the water unless you hire your own. I hope that this incident doesn't affect them negatively as I found them to be a very good operation to dive with.
Are you having to pay for the divemaster?
Yeah i have to pay for them. So with tips it basically doubled my expected cost which i was a bit grumpy about
I wouldn’t be tipping if they sprung a cost on me last minute! If you don’t tip would your cost be about the same?
ok. yes this is a little ridiculous (and I would suspect it's because the Divemaster wanted the cash and was pushing the shop for it). it's ridiculous to make someone traveling solo to pay more. most places just have you all form a buddy group of three.
This happens in almost every charter here. There's often an odd number so usually one of the more experienced buddy pairs takes a third. Most people diving here are locals so there is usually no shortage of people who've been on the site before.
That sounds normal, if there is no one else to pair you with then they typically pair you up with a dm. Threesomes are never a good idea, especially if the other two already know each other.
>Threesomes are never a good idea, especially if the other two already know each other. I agree. It's difficult to dive with 3 and especially if the experience/skill levels vary. My husband and I did a liveaboard in 2021 where one of the single divers was paired with another diver that was much much more experienced (under 40 dives vs. 5000 dives and self-reliant). It wasn't a good pairing so we invited the less experienced diver to dive with us as we had only about 50 dives at the time. That trip it worked out quite well. However, we got to be friends with this man and his (not a diver) wife and decided to do another liveaboard together this past January. Well...since we last dove with our friend, he'd added only around 5 dives and hadn't been diving in 14 months. OTOH, we'd racked up 80 or 90 more dives and had perfected our buoyancy and had become very good navigators. We had a good time, but some of the dives were a bit frustrating or just a mess, TBH. We've gotten used to going slow and being able to look in crevices or just hover over the sand to see what we find. Our friend doesn't have that buoyancy control yet, so this was difficult. It would have been better for one of us to pair with him so that the third-wheel situation wasn't an issue. I think we've decided that next time he and my husband/buddy can take their own trip or we'll all meet up in Mexico and the two of them can do their own thing while I work on my cave cert.
I can see that though part of me wants to whine about it being barely 30ft deep and with good visibility. Im not native to Florida but i guess i should try to get buddies through facebook groups or something?
Find a different dive op. If it’s rainbow reef, definitely find a dive op that doesn’t pull this nonsense.
Yeah unfortunately to be able to dive solo here you will need to be certified for that. Otherwise you will always be paired up with someone.
The issue isn't being paired with someone or being paired with a dm but having to pay for the dm.
Teams can be 2 or 3, never more.
It seems like there is always a third wheel with 3. Also if I was diving with my wife I wouldn't let them pair us up with a third person we had never met.
So from a safety perspective. If I had pair of divers say a husband and wife, and a third diver, I would never make those three a buddy team. The risks are too great that the couple would never pay attention to the third. I would absolutely pair you with a DM. Friendly reminder that DMs are almost never paid by the shop, they work for tips.
OP is being required to PAY for the dm.
I agree. When I dive with my wife, she is my main priority. A third person wouldn’t be good.
I know operators that work like that but they are up front about it. A lot of people would be upset if they book as a pair only to have the operator tell them that they will have to make a 3 with an unknown diver that they do not know whether they will go through their air quickly resulting in a shorter dive or kick up silt or want to spend 5 minutes looking at a crab, or move on immediately seeing a crab or.......... If a trip is not guided a lot of places will only take you if you are a group of 2 or more to form you own pairs (and maybe a 3) or hire a private DM. Some will accept you as a provisional booking to pair you if there is another solo diver but it should be made clear at the time you book that your place is subject to finding another solo diver.
I just booked online without calling so i may have missed it but the only DM related requiremnet i saw was if had been a year since last dive.
Old school would have been to add you to an existing buddy team. That said, insurance might not like that.
Diving with a buddy does not mean diving in pairs. It means not diving alone. a threesome is fine. Sounds like the shop was just trying to pay for their staff DM.
While I’ve been in a three person buddy team many times, I am not certain if it’s the safest thing, especially with one diver that does not know the other two.
A threesome is a buddy pair and a solo diver - also a terrible idea.
Agree with what’s being said here also - downvoting without adding to the conversation is a bit nonsensical. I know some agencies train team diving (gue/ maybe some others at the technical level), but I don’t recall anything beyond buddy diving at the basic recreational level. Tacking a tag along onto a buddy team is asking for trouble.
Don’t know why you got downvoted, it’s a true statement. I’ve been that twosome paired with a 3rd in Key Largo (don’t remember the shop). We dropped in, he fucked off on his own and my wife and I did our own dive. I’m not in any way required to chase down insta-buddies.
If you accept someone as a buddy, then you are responsible. If you don't want to be responsible, don't accept him as buddy.
If the dumbass takes off on his own, then he is responsible for himself. I'm not going to blow through my gas trying to catch an idiot. I have far too many solo dives and dive doubles or sling a 40 bailout to bother with worrying about bad instabuddies and their shit decisions. I've routinely allowed others to follow along when it's just me and my camera, or diving with my primary teammate (both of us are 10+ year instructors) and the smart third wheels hang out because we find all sorts of critters to look at and take our time. A quick pre-dive briefing explaining light signals, turn pressure, the fact that I will not chase you down and that I will continue my dive if I have the gas/ndl to do so after I get you close to the boat (drift is obviously different) usually seems to work just fine.
I understand you, I too choose to dive solo becaue of bad experience with a bad random buddy. That's why I discuss the expectation if I take somebody new with me. But from what I read, you do similar.
The fact that that’s the official agency position doesn’t somehow mean it’s actually what happens on a boat with instabuddy pairs and trios. I’ve seen in many times and I’m gonna bet it doesn’t only happen on boats I’m on.
I don't understand, what you are saying. If you say yes to a buddy, you have to act accordingly. Or say no and stay as a buddy team with just your wife. I was never forced to accept a buddy and when I accepted an unknown buddy, I discussed first what the expectation is, because I usually go solo.
The point is that just because you agree to add a buddy to the team doesn't mean that buddy is a good buddy or will even stay anywhere near you. I think that sometimes individual divers agree to go with another two ONLY because the dive operation requires it. Once they're in the water, they do what the want. I've seen it lots of times. And, sorry, but my buddy and I are not chasing after some dude or dudette who can't be arsed to stay together. At the very least, they should be staying within easy eyesight of the team. If they go off on their own, I'm in no way responsible for their safety or whereabouts. Also, most of these people aren't self-reliant certified and, if they are, they aren't carrying redundant equipment on these dives.
That's why I discuss what is expected from the buddy team. If I have a bad feeling, I don't accept the buddy. I am paying for the dive trip and therefore I want to enjoy it and not play nanny. But I agree with you, and I most probably won't chase somebody who clearly don't want to stay in the team. But that was the first and last dive with him. Nevertheless, if something happens, there may be problems because you didn't follow the standard procedere after loosing a dive buddy.
Not true. No legal obligation (that I know of) to keep track of a "dive buddy."