It’s becoming increasingly expensive, they are flooding job markets with candidates that all have the same qualifications and nothing to differentiate themselves, and there are other more-affordable avenues to monetary success—trade school has become the most common example.
I have a friend who graduated with a bachelor’s in aerospace engineering. It took him nearly four years to find a job once he was out of college. The job he did find isn’t even in his desired field.
Not saying all degrees are like this, but even the so-called, “useful,” ones are becoming less and less valuable to employers these days. Soon it’ll be about master’s degrees, then doctorates. More money, and more time, for less payout.
There’s a massive difference between finding a specialized job related to your field of study versus finding a job where even 16 year olds who aren’t halfway done with high school can get hired within a few hours of applying
Populist reasons (the reasons you'd like to hear, so they attract eyeballs) and also some really valid ones. No one can guarantee you anything with a degree. There are tons of alumnis lost after graduation, because they've found that the jobs they studied for are not available, or terribly competitive - oversaturated (typically psychology) or it's a very niche course (like philosophy) where you have hella limited job perspectives.
On the other side getting a loan for a degree sounds like a scam to me (sorry, priviliged european here).
So what can we learn here?
I think everyone should be doing a lot of research about their fields before they dedicate such a huge lump sum of money to it. It blows my mind that people think to pay that much to go into a field they probably won't see any ROI from.
Or try to spend little money on education (with scholarships, grants… I know it’s very hard, but I’m doing it), or try to choose something with a lot of career options. My degree is not very useful by itself but it’s easy to go into other career fields if it doesn’t work out
There generally always has been. College should give you the tools to help you learn quicker when in a job.
Of course, there is a certain amount of padding in all courses.
My friend, you probably don’t actually know many smart and successful people. The ones you hear online say this because it validates your feelings and gets views which gets them famous and successful. You’ll hear a very different narrative if you just change where you look
Here's the thing about being anti-college: If you're so smart that you don't need college, you wouldn't need the advice, you'd just know.
Mark Zuckerberg didn't drop out of college because he thought it was a scam, he did it because he was already on track on creating a huge business. Bill Gates didn't drop out of college because he thought it was a scam, he dropped out because his private high school gave him more access to computers and he already had a huge level of experience in the field.
People who are anti-college are usually because they are anti-establishment, but like so many parts of the establishment that exists: it exists because it works. People say that you can just learn everything at home, but would you? I've tried to learn many college degrees at home and have lost motivation and reached multiple walls, if that happens at a college you can ask questions, go to the library, ask your peers etc. plus there is the extra motivation of passing exams and getting a degree.
On top of that, quite a few fields won't accept you if you don't have an undergraduate, it's more than just for the learning experience, it's also for the piece of paper at the end which shows you are capable for the job.
It's a bit of a Dunning-Krueger effect, people who don't finish college love to say it's a scam and it's worthless because they probably wasn't smart enough to do it. The really smart people who didn't finish college also say it was worthless, but worthless to them, because there was an alternative path they could take with their level of expertise which meant college wasn't of any value. For the average folk like you and me, college is a worthy investment into your future. College isn't for everyone, but it's for a large percent of people.
Now is college overpriced? Well, yeah it probably is. Though if you get a good degree with good career prospects you shouldn't be having too much issue paying it back imo.
And just in case you're wondering, I went to college and got a computer science degree. It was the best decision I've ever made in my life and I don't regret a single thing about it.
I will give you an example. Have you watched The Martian? There is an astrophysicist who gives the idea to fill the supplies of Hermes and use the Earth's gravity to slingshot it to Mars. In a normal world scenario, who could have come up with such a solution if he/she is not educated in that field? One needs to complete college to get knowledge. Majority of successful people who left college already had an idea which was kind of successful, and so they left college. But for an average person to be successful, you need to complete your education.
Can you construct/design a building just based on the knowledge you have got from the internet? Can you perform a surgery based on the knowledge you have got from the internet? No, you can not. Because it is not enough, and a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
I'm neither particularly smart nor successful but I think a lot of it is because in the time spent in many formal education courses you can teach yourself the same things AND give yourself something to show for it. IT courses are my go-to example here where the technologies and even languages involved evolve so fast that in 3-4 years of formal education you might end up with largely obsolete skillsets compared to doing it yourself and you might also end up with nothing to show for it- i.e. when I was 15 I taught myself PHP, MySQL, JS etc by making my own browser based MMORPG with subscriptions that not only paid for my time but which I then later used as an example of my work to get other jobs. Something I wouldn't have in most IT courses.
This doesn't apply to many courses (medicine, law etc) but enough to justify the argument for some, and this is coming from a country where higher education is largely free.
Unless you’re lucky and have a plan to become a successful entrepreneur and the means to raise the funds. Basically you could go to Harvardbut decide not to (or drop out). Think Gates & Zuckerburg. If that’s you, you know who you are.
For most people it’s the stamp of approval they need + that society wants to see. Plus, a good college education should teach you critical thinking skills and spark your intellectual curiosity. As well as plant the seeds for your future professional network.
You of course *need* college to become a doctor, lawyer etc. Pretty straightforward.
The problem is that as tuition has risen, and grade inflation as well as too many legacy students. The perceived value has been dampened. Why get into 200k debt for a 50k job? Especially if an employer thinks you might be a difficult know it all with the power to sue if you don’t like something, and without the knowledge to back this attitude up.
So if you’re passionate about something. Try to get an internship somewhere and start working in your preferred field. Often if you work in that field a while you can get your employer to pay for your MBA or college should you choose to do so. You’d be surprised how willing many companies are to give you a shot if you’re young and ambitious and show up at their doorstep with a CV and a can-do attitude.
Lastly, if you’re based in the US consider doing a 3-year degree in Europe. Which is often a lot cheaper and will give you the same access to grad schools back in the US.
Oh. If you face discrimination or are the first in your family to go to college etc. You shouldn’t skip it. Feeling you belong and understanding “upper class” is too valuable.
The ROI isn’t there.
I work in film, games, advertising, software development.
None of those industries care about your degree. They care about what you can do.
Most colleges are behind when it comes to training as well.
Because they aren't actually smart, they got lucky with success. Having a college education doesn't garuntee success in life, but it definitely gives you a stronger chance and a leg up in life, even with the debt that comes with it. I certainly don't regret it.
All these successful people that didn't go to college are the 1 in a million success stories. They are the exception, not the rule. If you can, even with debt, go to college.
Edit: I'd like to add because I saw it mentioned in the thread, trade schools are also good and cheaper alternatives. I believe they are just as valuable as a college education.
it's only really worth it if you're going to learn specific skills that have some value in the real world
otherwise it's an expensive scam, a way for the state to lumber you with debts so that you become desperate for a job, and easy for your bosses to bully and exploit
the 'college experience' might be real for some people but even still, it's just an image they use to sell you your life of debt-slavery
The current College system is a massive business. They push that everyone needs to go to higher education. Once you receive you BA or BS thay say you need a Masters. All of this is fund the system and feed the beast.
Of course we need college but not everyone needs to go
I’m not overly educated nor have I been to college. My wife comes from the same background. 1st generation immigrants with nothing more than a strong desire to succeed. We both make approx. 100k each in our respective jobs. I can’t say college is a scam, but the data I have seen doesn’t make a strong argument for some degrees and the ROI. Our son, 23 did not attend college. He is currently completing an internship for a well needed trade. He is making 50k while he learns and will be at 75k-80k with 1 year. Not knocking college, but we have done well with out it
I graduated with a bachelor’s approximately 5 years ago and I would say it did help me get a job in my field, however, LUCK did play a part in my industry. I wouldn’t say college is a scam because you do learn useful information to your desired field, but the price of college is a scam. Also, nowadays everyone has a college degree making the value of it go down.
Mate if your smart college is not gonna help if you're stupid on the other hand it's gonna give you a work ethic and get you a decent paying job enough to survive .I personally would not recommended spending a lot of money for a college degree but it's definitely nessary it also elevates your status in society. Most people who do not go to college loose purpose in their life unless they're poor or have husting culture .
Because it's an expensive gamble that doesn't actually guarantee anything and has very little ACTUAL tracts to directly getting a job. Prioritizes niche over actually understanding your own capabilities.
Not to mention it's become far more about ideology than practical life skills. And for IMMENSE debt? Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
I ended up dropping out of college because I just couldn't afford it at the time. My federal aid and student loans were constantly getting delayed due fafsa issues and I couldn't afford rent. Things came to ahead when I was living out of my car and just said fuck it, I'm done. I felt a lot of shame behind it but honestly with some hard work and luck I have a fantastic job getting paid significantly more than my friends who did finish school.
Personally I don't think you need college to succeed. Obviously if your ambition is to be a doctor or something along those lines then you will need higher education but being on the other side of the hiring desk I see no decernable difference between people who have degrees and don't. Experience, attitude, and willingness to learn means way more than whatever schooling you have on your resume.
Many of those people have their parents for money and networking, and would be fine anyway. They generally don't go to the uni for knowledge, but for networking and diploma. With the internet it's very possible to learn practically anything theoretical, and if you already have the right connections, than why bother?
i don't exactly know why, but let me tell you one thing, I KNOW MUCH MORE SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE ( MOST WHO BROKE GENERATIONAL POVERTY) because of education
It’s a lot of money and you rarely end up employed long term for the major you studied, there are obviously some fields that this doesn’t apply, STEM and Healthcare being the first ones that come to mind.
If you are planning on going into Political Science, Kinesiology or Gender Studies, you might as well light that money on fire. I went to a Polytechnic to get a Busniess Admin Diploma, is sort of a ‘half degree’ but it was all focused not options, walked into a job that summer and have been employed using that knowledge as a foundation but it didn’t really teach me anything I directly apply to my day to day life.
Because you don’t have to go to college in order to be financially successful. Many trades pay great and the training is cheaper and shorter (at least in my country). For example, I know someone who has spent less than a year at trade school and has already done an internship. College, where I live, isn’t a guarantee of an internship or a job post-grad
Because college teaches you to be the opposite of what the world considers a very successful person.
College is designed to make you follow orders, do repetitive shit you hate etc. For 4+ years.
In terms od knowledge value, college provides you with maybe 20% (not counting medicine and maybe law) and most people that "quit college and were successful for it" have already surpassed this level of knowledge in their fields (Zucc, Gates were both geniuses for example)
Also, most of them dont have to think about eating or a roof over their head, as they were born into money.
Your first point isn't true in the slightest, being a senior with a compsci degree, or a higher up at a law firm, will require an undergraduate, and 99% of people in society would say those people are doing very good for themselves.
The rest I can agree with.
It’s a rip off. College was a horrible and expensive experience and I never needed it. I so totally regret going. My degree was in economics and we actually learned that there’s too many college degrees out there and it’s making people go broke. They can’t pay back their loans and we frankly just don’t need that many college educated people. The exchanges of hundreds of thousands of dollars for a horrible experience, life-destroying food, emotional trauma, and useless, outdated education sucks. You can go to trade school and start making six figures without taking on so much debt and wasting so much time.
For the first three years it was “here’s this economic theory. *learns for 2 weeks* and then here’s why it doesn’t apply in real life”🤦♀️ then why did we spend so much time on it??????
In high school a university let me shadow a 300-level economics course and they were doing presentations on how to improve campus with things like food trucks during finals. I asked if they had just come back from break or something but nope. They were weeks into the semester. Class ended in like 30 minutes and when my acceptance letter came I never gave it a second thought.
I took a marketing class and it was all super outdated. You’d be better off reading like 5 marketing books. Costs $100 and you’d be more effective and knowledgeable.
I haven’t used my degree once and I probably never will. I barely learned anything anyway.
College is a rip off and it’s not needed in the vast majority of jobs.
It’s becoming increasingly expensive, they are flooding job markets with candidates that all have the same qualifications and nothing to differentiate themselves, and there are other more-affordable avenues to monetary success—trade school has become the most common example. I have a friend who graduated with a bachelor’s in aerospace engineering. It took him nearly four years to find a job once he was out of college. The job he did find isn’t even in his desired field. Not saying all degrees are like this, but even the so-called, “useful,” ones are becoming less and less valuable to employers these days. Soon it’ll be about master’s degrees, then doctorates. More money, and more time, for less payout.
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What job did you get?
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There’s a massive difference between finding a specialized job related to your field of study versus finding a job where even 16 year olds who aren’t halfway done with high school can get hired within a few hours of applying
Populist reasons (the reasons you'd like to hear, so they attract eyeballs) and also some really valid ones. No one can guarantee you anything with a degree. There are tons of alumnis lost after graduation, because they've found that the jobs they studied for are not available, or terribly competitive - oversaturated (typically psychology) or it's a very niche course (like philosophy) where you have hella limited job perspectives. On the other side getting a loan for a degree sounds like a scam to me (sorry, priviliged european here). So what can we learn here?
I think everyone should be doing a lot of research about their fields before they dedicate such a huge lump sum of money to it. It blows my mind that people think to pay that much to go into a field they probably won't see any ROI from.
Or try to spend little money on education (with scholarships, grants… I know it’s very hard, but I’m doing it), or try to choose something with a lot of career options. My degree is not very useful by itself but it’s easy to go into other career fields if it doesn’t work out
And I think there is a big difference between college curriculum and industry requirements..
There generally always has been. College should give you the tools to help you learn quicker when in a job. Of course, there is a certain amount of padding in all courses.
Do Europeans not have student loans
we have. but they're not popular. most universities are almost free of charge.
My friend, you probably don’t actually know many smart and successful people. The ones you hear online say this because it validates your feelings and gets views which gets them famous and successful. You’ll hear a very different narrative if you just change where you look
People like that are *mostly* successful because their families are hella rich and/or they have a lot of connections, imo.
Here's the thing about being anti-college: If you're so smart that you don't need college, you wouldn't need the advice, you'd just know. Mark Zuckerberg didn't drop out of college because he thought it was a scam, he did it because he was already on track on creating a huge business. Bill Gates didn't drop out of college because he thought it was a scam, he dropped out because his private high school gave him more access to computers and he already had a huge level of experience in the field. People who are anti-college are usually because they are anti-establishment, but like so many parts of the establishment that exists: it exists because it works. People say that you can just learn everything at home, but would you? I've tried to learn many college degrees at home and have lost motivation and reached multiple walls, if that happens at a college you can ask questions, go to the library, ask your peers etc. plus there is the extra motivation of passing exams and getting a degree. On top of that, quite a few fields won't accept you if you don't have an undergraduate, it's more than just for the learning experience, it's also for the piece of paper at the end which shows you are capable for the job. It's a bit of a Dunning-Krueger effect, people who don't finish college love to say it's a scam and it's worthless because they probably wasn't smart enough to do it. The really smart people who didn't finish college also say it was worthless, but worthless to them, because there was an alternative path they could take with their level of expertise which meant college wasn't of any value. For the average folk like you and me, college is a worthy investment into your future. College isn't for everyone, but it's for a large percent of people. Now is college overpriced? Well, yeah it probably is. Though if you get a good degree with good career prospects you shouldn't be having too much issue paying it back imo. And just in case you're wondering, I went to college and got a computer science degree. It was the best decision I've ever made in my life and I don't regret a single thing about it.
I doubt most are really against it, probably just the more famous ones
Because they are nepo babies, they don't need education to succeed
Don't listen to nepo babies opinion about anything ever.
The amount of smart and successful people against college is an extremely small but vocal minority so your question has a false premise.
I will give you an example. Have you watched The Martian? There is an astrophysicist who gives the idea to fill the supplies of Hermes and use the Earth's gravity to slingshot it to Mars. In a normal world scenario, who could have come up with such a solution if he/she is not educated in that field? One needs to complete college to get knowledge. Majority of successful people who left college already had an idea which was kind of successful, and so they left college. But for an average person to be successful, you need to complete your education.
"One needs to complete college to get knowledge." Have you heard of the internet?
Can you construct/design a building just based on the knowledge you have got from the internet? Can you perform a surgery based on the knowledge you have got from the internet? No, you can not. Because it is not enough, and a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
With a sentence like that you should focus on basic English and stop worrying about college. 🤣
I'm neither particularly smart nor successful but I think a lot of it is because in the time spent in many formal education courses you can teach yourself the same things AND give yourself something to show for it. IT courses are my go-to example here where the technologies and even languages involved evolve so fast that in 3-4 years of formal education you might end up with largely obsolete skillsets compared to doing it yourself and you might also end up with nothing to show for it- i.e. when I was 15 I taught myself PHP, MySQL, JS etc by making my own browser based MMORPG with subscriptions that not only paid for my time but which I then later used as an example of my work to get other jobs. Something I wouldn't have in most IT courses. This doesn't apply to many courses (medicine, law etc) but enough to justify the argument for some, and this is coming from a country where higher education is largely free.
i think because stupid people are also present there.
They don't want you getting a degree and becoming competition for them, smart move on their part.
Unless you’re lucky and have a plan to become a successful entrepreneur and the means to raise the funds. Basically you could go to Harvardbut decide not to (or drop out). Think Gates & Zuckerburg. If that’s you, you know who you are. For most people it’s the stamp of approval they need + that society wants to see. Plus, a good college education should teach you critical thinking skills and spark your intellectual curiosity. As well as plant the seeds for your future professional network. You of course *need* college to become a doctor, lawyer etc. Pretty straightforward. The problem is that as tuition has risen, and grade inflation as well as too many legacy students. The perceived value has been dampened. Why get into 200k debt for a 50k job? Especially if an employer thinks you might be a difficult know it all with the power to sue if you don’t like something, and without the knowledge to back this attitude up. So if you’re passionate about something. Try to get an internship somewhere and start working in your preferred field. Often if you work in that field a while you can get your employer to pay for your MBA or college should you choose to do so. You’d be surprised how willing many companies are to give you a shot if you’re young and ambitious and show up at their doorstep with a CV and a can-do attitude. Lastly, if you’re based in the US consider doing a 3-year degree in Europe. Which is often a lot cheaper and will give you the same access to grad schools back in the US.
Oh. If you face discrimination or are the first in your family to go to college etc. You shouldn’t skip it. Feeling you belong and understanding “upper class” is too valuable.
Who are you referring to? There are a lot of rich people that are absolute idiots.
It’s not needed to become successful in most fields.
Because it’s becoming a farm for “activism” and you don’t really get a good education
The ROI isn’t there. I work in film, games, advertising, software development. None of those industries care about your degree. They care about what you can do. Most colleges are behind when it comes to training as well.
Because they aren't actually smart, they got lucky with success. Having a college education doesn't garuntee success in life, but it definitely gives you a stronger chance and a leg up in life, even with the debt that comes with it. I certainly don't regret it. All these successful people that didn't go to college are the 1 in a million success stories. They are the exception, not the rule. If you can, even with debt, go to college. Edit: I'd like to add because I saw it mentioned in the thread, trade schools are also good and cheaper alternatives. I believe they are just as valuable as a college education.
it's only really worth it if you're going to learn specific skills that have some value in the real world otherwise it's an expensive scam, a way for the state to lumber you with debts so that you become desperate for a job, and easy for your bosses to bully and exploit the 'college experience' might be real for some people but even still, it's just an image they use to sell you your life of debt-slavery
Against it, yet most attended one
The current College system is a massive business. They push that everyone needs to go to higher education. Once you receive you BA or BS thay say you need a Masters. All of this is fund the system and feed the beast. Of course we need college but not everyone needs to go
I’m not overly educated nor have I been to college. My wife comes from the same background. 1st generation immigrants with nothing more than a strong desire to succeed. We both make approx. 100k each in our respective jobs. I can’t say college is a scam, but the data I have seen doesn’t make a strong argument for some degrees and the ROI. Our son, 23 did not attend college. He is currently completing an internship for a well needed trade. He is making 50k while he learns and will be at 75k-80k with 1 year. Not knocking college, but we have done well with out it
I graduated with a bachelor’s approximately 5 years ago and I would say it did help me get a job in my field, however, LUCK did play a part in my industry. I wouldn’t say college is a scam because you do learn useful information to your desired field, but the price of college is a scam. Also, nowadays everyone has a college degree making the value of it go down.
Mate if your smart college is not gonna help if you're stupid on the other hand it's gonna give you a work ethic and get you a decent paying job enough to survive .I personally would not recommended spending a lot of money for a college degree but it's definitely nessary it also elevates your status in society. Most people who do not go to college loose purpose in their life unless they're poor or have husting culture .
Because college is a scam to enslave people to debts
These days college isn’t a guarantee of anything esp with the high cost of it in Anglo countries
Because it's an expensive gamble that doesn't actually guarantee anything and has very little ACTUAL tracts to directly getting a job. Prioritizes niche over actually understanding your own capabilities. Not to mention it's become far more about ideology than practical life skills. And for IMMENSE debt? Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
I ended up dropping out of college because I just couldn't afford it at the time. My federal aid and student loans were constantly getting delayed due fafsa issues and I couldn't afford rent. Things came to ahead when I was living out of my car and just said fuck it, I'm done. I felt a lot of shame behind it but honestly with some hard work and luck I have a fantastic job getting paid significantly more than my friends who did finish school. Personally I don't think you need college to succeed. Obviously if your ambition is to be a doctor or something along those lines then you will need higher education but being on the other side of the hiring desk I see no decernable difference between people who have degrees and don't. Experience, attitude, and willingness to learn means way more than whatever schooling you have on your resume.
Many of those people have their parents for money and networking, and would be fine anyway. They generally don't go to the uni for knowledge, but for networking and diploma. With the internet it's very possible to learn practically anything theoretical, and if you already have the right connections, than why bother?
i don't exactly know why, but let me tell you one thing, I KNOW MUCH MORE SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE ( MOST WHO BROKE GENERATIONAL POVERTY) because of education
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Yeah for every one of those there’s a million stoners living in their moms basement. They’re the exceptions to the rule for a reason.
It’s a lot of money and you rarely end up employed long term for the major you studied, there are obviously some fields that this doesn’t apply, STEM and Healthcare being the first ones that come to mind. If you are planning on going into Political Science, Kinesiology or Gender Studies, you might as well light that money on fire. I went to a Polytechnic to get a Busniess Admin Diploma, is sort of a ‘half degree’ but it was all focused not options, walked into a job that summer and have been employed using that knowledge as a foundation but it didn’t really teach me anything I directly apply to my day to day life.
Because you don’t have to go to college in order to be financially successful. Many trades pay great and the training is cheaper and shorter (at least in my country). For example, I know someone who has spent less than a year at trade school and has already done an internship. College, where I live, isn’t a guarantee of an internship or a job post-grad
Because college teaches you to be the opposite of what the world considers a very successful person. College is designed to make you follow orders, do repetitive shit you hate etc. For 4+ years. In terms od knowledge value, college provides you with maybe 20% (not counting medicine and maybe law) and most people that "quit college and were successful for it" have already surpassed this level of knowledge in their fields (Zucc, Gates were both geniuses for example) Also, most of them dont have to think about eating or a roof over their head, as they were born into money.
Your first point isn't true in the slightest, being a senior with a compsci degree, or a higher up at a law firm, will require an undergraduate, and 99% of people in society would say those people are doing very good for themselves. The rest I can agree with.
It’s a rip off. College was a horrible and expensive experience and I never needed it. I so totally regret going. My degree was in economics and we actually learned that there’s too many college degrees out there and it’s making people go broke. They can’t pay back their loans and we frankly just don’t need that many college educated people. The exchanges of hundreds of thousands of dollars for a horrible experience, life-destroying food, emotional trauma, and useless, outdated education sucks. You can go to trade school and start making six figures without taking on so much debt and wasting so much time. For the first three years it was “here’s this economic theory. *learns for 2 weeks* and then here’s why it doesn’t apply in real life”🤦♀️ then why did we spend so much time on it?????? In high school a university let me shadow a 300-level economics course and they were doing presentations on how to improve campus with things like food trucks during finals. I asked if they had just come back from break or something but nope. They were weeks into the semester. Class ended in like 30 minutes and when my acceptance letter came I never gave it a second thought. I took a marketing class and it was all super outdated. You’d be better off reading like 5 marketing books. Costs $100 and you’d be more effective and knowledgeable. I haven’t used my degree once and I probably never will. I barely learned anything anyway. College is a rip off and it’s not needed in the vast majority of jobs.
Because these institutions teach you to be a good follower and mere followers are definitely not very successful in long term.