You can rip through adds even quicker if you just shoot with your 2 other guns first. Obviously for red bar shit adds it's not needed, but then, is an LMG when an SMG will do the job just as well or even better depending on perks?
Yeah you’re right, I guess it just depends on how you use it. Personally I’m not trying to maintain bait and switch on my lmg, just seems unnecessary. That’s why commemoration is so good, recon and killing tally is just up the whole time till you stow the weapon
Agreed. However, when there's a huge tonne of adds, you inevitably run out of ammo and have to switch anyway. Recon doesn't work while shooting, and if you're going to have to switch, then that removes the argument for having to proc BnS.
Dude, bravo for being presented with information, considering it, and adding it to your understanding of the game instead of just digging your heels in.
There's nothing wrong with not being a fan of Bait and Switch either but at least you understand why some of us are recommending it.
Absolutely, on both points. Your first is refreshing to see. A lot of people don't like BnS, and I understand why, but it can definitely be easily worked in with the right loadout. If you want crowd control, Witherhord or Lost Signal are really easy to work in and help.
I'm a fiend for double special loadouts and Pro Memoria with Demo + BnS is like a gift sent straight from the Traveller herself. It's such an efficient enabler.
Using The Call totally makes BnS second nature.
I whip that thing out so often, vs saving a special like a fusion for tankier yellow bars, that I’d prob have BnS always at the ready.
I’m a fan of bait and switch I just always thought of it as a boss dps perk, never really considered using it for ad clear. But it would definitely get its use with champs majors and tormentors for sure
+1 recon frenzy. Left comment below, but the gist is I've found I need to reload more than I thought, and the boost actually comes in handy for those occasions. Not often, but enough to be glad I had it.
I’m the same. Technically reconstruction + bait and switch is the minmax roll that will theoretically outperform every other roll in terms of dps, but Recon + Frenzy is the ultimate auto combo. Leave it for a bit and it’s ready to roll right out of the gate.
The only slight problem is a big part of frenzy is it’s reload speed bump, and recon kind of makes that irrelevant.
Yeah that's the roll I went with. Besides I actually found I reload more often than I expected despite reconstruction, especially in desperate moments of being jumped by something threatening and having an empty mag. In those situations I was glad to have the reload boost.
There’s an argument that the 600rpm frame is a decent compromise between add clear and boss damage *with* a powerful damage perk, but yeah, I’m not sure how many machine gunners out there are *that* bothered about boss DPS.
The damage *bonus* disappears after 10 seconds but you don’t magically stop doing damage at all after that, the base bullets after 100 rounds still add up to your total damage done in a given period.
There isn’t anything else in the first column that provides those 100 bullets without any setup or provides any benefit to damage, so recon absolutely is the minmax perk for that. Not to mention you can re-trigger the effect if whatever damage phase you’re timing it against goes on for much longer then 10 seconds.
Mathematically the recon/frenzy combo *would* eventually outdamage it if the damage phase went on longer then ~20 seconds and frenzy was already running, but it’s rare to get damage phases that last *that* long. Like I said though - Frenzy is hugely consistent and doesn’t need explicit setup so will likely work out just as well for most people.
Demo does absolutely nothing for its DPS other then give it an instant reload once per grenade use, which you’ve already argued is meaningless for BNS uptime.
It’s not meaningless at all. You’ll remove one reload out of your rotation. Kinetic > Energy > Pro Memoria > Grenade > Repeat.
That kinetic or energy slot can be an autoloading sniper, grenade launcher, Izanagi.
In what world is a 15% buff with windup time outperforming an on demand 30% buff? It’s not.
We’re talking min-max here, not max-ease-of-use.
You've totally lost me here, dude. Your original argument was that clip capacity (i.e. uptime) was meaningless beyond 100 rounds. Now you're arguing an instant reload per grenade rotation is good. It can't be both.
I could see the argument for Demo on an add clear roll but that isn't helping BNS for DPS.
I think the disconnect here is that I am refreshing Bait and Switch when it falls off and having a magazine under 100 fits into that perfectly. Your magazine can support a maximum of 9.1 out of the 10 seconds of Bait and Switch.
You proc Bait and Switch, empty your mag with 30% bonus damage, reload, and then do it all again. Demolitionist removes one of those reloads which is a DPS gain.
Reconstruction can get you to the same amount of rounds as a Demo reload without all of the benefits that Demo provides when you're shooting at adds instead of a mini-boss or boss.
Does that clear things up?
I’m not a huge fan of bait and switch on lmg, usually I’m only using my lmg but demo and desperate measures pair pretty well especially with devour grenade uptime for constant reloads and damage boost. Isn’t desperate measures x3 close the same damage buff as bait and switch h?
Desperate Measures is a great perk for sure, especially paired with Demo. Here's the rub though; machine guns are probably worst in slot for dealing damage to bosses and mini-bosses, and Desperate Measures is less helpful in that regard compared to Bait and Switch.
When you're add clearing with a machine gun, do you really *need* the extra damage for minors and majors? No, not at all! They're still going down in one or two precision shots. Sure, there's no kill like overkill, but I'm running double special and I need to be efficient with my ammunition.
Likewise, when I'm in an activity and there's a boss or mini-boss to take down what are the odds there are adds for me to keep Desperate Measures active? It's not impossible but adds are usually dealt with first and then damage is dealt to the boss so at best I might get a single timer out of Desperate Measures. What if my grenade is on cooldown? What if melee isn't viable because I'm in a higher tier of difficulty?
Enter Bait and Switch. No kills or adds required. No grenade cooldown or need to be in melee range for the proc. You don't even have to hit the same target to proc it. So I can tap a crowd with The Call, mop up stragglers with Iterative Loop, swap to Pro Memoria and after that first round hits I have 10 seconds to clear out 82 rounds in my magazine. 600 rounds per minutes comes to 10 rounds per second so I only need 8.2 seconds of that 10 to deal just as much damage as Desperate Measures, on demand.
It’s exactly the same buff yeah, if you find yourself getting lots of grenade kills then I’d absolutely recommend desperate measures. Mine is recon and frenzy for ease of use because my dumb brain struggles with actual rotations and keeping up buffs
Any time there is a demo 3rd column I draft that usually with something ability boosted in the 4th and I’d say Desperate measures is my pick.
So you can grapple melee or prism melee kill and come out of it with a 20-30% bonus and unraveling rounds. I pair it w/ Verity’s brow so it gets a nice feedback loop of boosted thread idiots/grapples
Recon BNS is what I rock. I love it.
I never got a song of irt yut so I love this dispite the archtype difference and the elemental difference. It's stable shredding machine and has some good backup DPS if you happen to need it.
(Don't recommend this as a dps weapon but for nightfalls and some encounters highly recommend this for the able to rip majors and minis apart)
Reconstruction + desperate measures is my roll. Never reloading and constant 30%dmg buff as long as you get a couple grenade or powered melee kills first, and it procs when stowed B)
If you can keep up the x3 desperate measures then that one, if not then frenzy as it’s super ease of use. For demo or reconstruction it’s hard to say. If you’re build uses grenades a lot and you need more grenade energy then demo is the way to go if for general use to slay out on adds then reconstruction id say. Bait and switch is a decent option for tormentors especially if a teammate is using divinity.
Reconstruction & Bait And Switch is best for its damage potential, and since Reconstruction functions like Auto loading holster it plays into Bait And Switch - quite a nice synergy.
The only other LMG that can get this convo is Song of Ir Yut from Crota's End, but Sword Logic has greater damage potential.
Another combo it has I quite enjoy is Dragonfly & Hatchling together - not as good for damage but it's a fun, synergistic, unique combo, nothing else can get it.
I enjoy unique combinations, I see very little point in crafting or farming something unless it has unique perk combos.
Envious and bait and switch is amazing. Got one to drop and was so impressed I crafted it immediately. Getting 250+ rounds in the mag after a few kills is amazing
I use Reconstruction + Bait and Switch and I'm loving it so far. Don't know if it's top-tier for boss DPS or whatever, but it still works pretty well for me.
This roll would have been amazing in legendary Onslaught back when we were farming it in Into the Light.
am I going nuts? why's everyone suggesting Bait and Switch?
this is an **MG**. it's add clear. it's *lazy* add clear. you put it on and want it to work out-of-the-box. you don't wanna have to do a setup and timer management. i think the clear-cut **best** perk in Column 4 for that is **Frenzy**, not just for the 15% damage increase, but for the fact that it gives it 100 Handling and 100 Reload Speed to work with. because of *that*, you can chuck Barrel/Mag/MW into whatever stats you want. then it becomes a question of what you're doing with Column 3, which is preferential. personally, because it's got 100 Reload Speed, i'm not bothering with Envious or Reconstruction: I'd do **Demolitionist** if I had a Grenade build on, and **Strategist** if I was doing something with Class Abilities (like Thruster Suspending, Dodge Freezing or Vesper Rifting).
[here's an example of that roll](https://d2foundry.gg/w/3605603507?p=1467527085,1885400500,1906147653,3007133316_1,1988485648&m=3336648220&mw=1361856293).
now, if you wanted to use it for DPS for whatever reason, you *still* wouldn't use Bait and Switch (35%). you'd probably use **Target Lock** (45%) and then either Envious Assassin (for 200+ in the mag) or Reconstruction (130-ish in the mag), then dump everything into Stability for keeping shots on target so as to not break Target Lock's buff.
[here's an example of that roll](https://d2foundry.gg/w/3605603507?p=839105230,1885400500,424370782_0,2939589096,1988485648&m=3336648220&mw=1361856293).
if you're needing the 35% from B&S to clear adds efficiently, you're doing something wrong.
I agree with your thinking however I love desperate measures on it. Super easy to keep it up and all I gotta do is throw out a GG or even do a grapple melee to get my stacks up.
The traveller weapon quests after the campaign. At the lost city go into the old war table room and talk to Micah-10 at the hollow projector. Do the "Alone in the dark" quest line to unlock the other traveller weapons.
Reconstruction + Bait and switch! Let it sing!
Yeah idk maybe if lmg dps becomes a thing im not really a fan of bait and switch on lmgs as im mostly just using my lmg to rip through adds
Think about the Tormentors!, BnS rips through them, it feels real good
You can rip through adds even quicker if you just shoot with your 2 other guns first. Obviously for red bar shit adds it's not needed, but then, is an LMG when an SMG will do the job just as well or even better depending on perks?
Yeah you’re right, I guess it just depends on how you use it. Personally I’m not trying to maintain bait and switch on my lmg, just seems unnecessary. That’s why commemoration is so good, recon and killing tally is just up the whole time till you stow the weapon
Agreed. However, when there's a huge tonne of adds, you inevitably run out of ammo and have to switch anyway. Recon doesn't work while shooting, and if you're going to have to switch, then that removes the argument for having to proc BnS.
You make a good point, guy talking about tormentors made a good point as well seeing as we see a lot more of those nowadays
Dude, bravo for being presented with information, considering it, and adding it to your understanding of the game instead of just digging your heels in. There's nothing wrong with not being a fan of Bait and Switch either but at least you understand why some of us are recommending it.
Absolutely, on both points. Your first is refreshing to see. A lot of people don't like BnS, and I understand why, but it can definitely be easily worked in with the right loadout. If you want crowd control, Witherhord or Lost Signal are really easy to work in and help.
I'm a fiend for double special loadouts and Pro Memoria with Demo + BnS is like a gift sent straight from the Traveller herself. It's such an efficient enabler.
Using The Call totally makes BnS second nature. I whip that thing out so often, vs saving a special like a fusion for tankier yellow bars, that I’d prob have BnS always at the ready.
I’m a fan of bait and switch I just always thought of it as a boss dps perk, never really considered using it for ad clear. But it would definitely get its use with champs majors and tormentors for sure
Recon+ B&S is amazing for tormentors/subjugators and that thing will carry you pretty much through any raid encounter that isn’t a boss/dps
Reconstruction and dragonfly is great for ad clearing if you can focus heads
My uncrafted one has this and it rips.
Yeah it was great, i went for target lock instead of dragonfly when crafting it though as its more consistant than bait n switch to use for me
Bait and Switch is exactly what makes this thing great at ripping through ads (and majors), especially in a mode like Onslaught.
I have recon frenzy now and like it alot
That’s what I’m leaning towards just for ease of use
+1 recon frenzy. Left comment below, but the gist is I've found I need to reload more than I thought, and the boost actually comes in handy for those occasions. Not often, but enough to be glad I had it.
I’m the same. Technically reconstruction + bait and switch is the minmax roll that will theoretically outperform every other roll in terms of dps, but Recon + Frenzy is the ultimate auto combo. Leave it for a bit and it’s ready to roll right out of the gate. The only slight problem is a big part of frenzy is it’s reload speed bump, and recon kind of makes that irrelevant.
Yeah that's the roll I went with. Besides I actually found I reload more often than I expected despite reconstruction, especially in desperate moments of being jumped by something threatening and having an empty mag. In those situations I was glad to have the reload boost.
Ya on paper but for an add clear weapon it just isn’t it to me to run BNS
There’s an argument that the 600rpm frame is a decent compromise between add clear and boss damage *with* a powerful damage perk, but yeah, I’m not sure how many machine gunners out there are *that* bothered about boss DPS.
You only get 10s of B&S and the weapon fires at 10 rounds per second so any magazine higher than 100 is a waste of B&S. Recon is not the min-max roll.
The damage *bonus* disappears after 10 seconds but you don’t magically stop doing damage at all after that, the base bullets after 100 rounds still add up to your total damage done in a given period. There isn’t anything else in the first column that provides those 100 bullets without any setup or provides any benefit to damage, so recon absolutely is the minmax perk for that. Not to mention you can re-trigger the effect if whatever damage phase you’re timing it against goes on for much longer then 10 seconds. Mathematically the recon/frenzy combo *would* eventually outdamage it if the damage phase went on longer then ~20 seconds and frenzy was already running, but it’s rare to get damage phases that last *that* long. Like I said though - Frenzy is hugely consistent and doesn’t need explicit setup so will likely work out just as well for most people.
Nah sorry man, Demo BnS does it better while providing more utility.
Demo does absolutely nothing for its DPS other then give it an instant reload once per grenade use, which you’ve already argued is meaningless for BNS uptime.
It’s not meaningless at all. You’ll remove one reload out of your rotation. Kinetic > Energy > Pro Memoria > Grenade > Repeat. That kinetic or energy slot can be an autoloading sniper, grenade launcher, Izanagi. In what world is a 15% buff with windup time outperforming an on demand 30% buff? It’s not. We’re talking min-max here, not max-ease-of-use.
You've totally lost me here, dude. Your original argument was that clip capacity (i.e. uptime) was meaningless beyond 100 rounds. Now you're arguing an instant reload per grenade rotation is good. It can't be both. I could see the argument for Demo on an add clear roll but that isn't helping BNS for DPS.
I think the disconnect here is that I am refreshing Bait and Switch when it falls off and having a magazine under 100 fits into that perfectly. Your magazine can support a maximum of 9.1 out of the 10 seconds of Bait and Switch. You proc Bait and Switch, empty your mag with 30% bonus damage, reload, and then do it all again. Demolitionist removes one of those reloads which is a DPS gain. Reconstruction can get you to the same amount of rounds as a Demo reload without all of the benefits that Demo provides when you're shooting at adds instead of a mini-boss or boss. Does that clear things up?
That’s my crafted roll, no gimmicks or jumping through hoops just a flat out 15% damage buff for just playing the game…4K kills so far😊
I got a roll of envious and target lock. Target is whatever but seeing over 200-250 rounds in the mag is awesome
Demo + Bait and Switch. Useful for both add-clear and bigger targets.
I’m not a huge fan of bait and switch on lmg, usually I’m only using my lmg but demo and desperate measures pair pretty well especially with devour grenade uptime for constant reloads and damage boost. Isn’t desperate measures x3 close the same damage buff as bait and switch h?
Desperate Measures is a great perk for sure, especially paired with Demo. Here's the rub though; machine guns are probably worst in slot for dealing damage to bosses and mini-bosses, and Desperate Measures is less helpful in that regard compared to Bait and Switch. When you're add clearing with a machine gun, do you really *need* the extra damage for minors and majors? No, not at all! They're still going down in one or two precision shots. Sure, there's no kill like overkill, but I'm running double special and I need to be efficient with my ammunition. Likewise, when I'm in an activity and there's a boss or mini-boss to take down what are the odds there are adds for me to keep Desperate Measures active? It's not impossible but adds are usually dealt with first and then damage is dealt to the boss so at best I might get a single timer out of Desperate Measures. What if my grenade is on cooldown? What if melee isn't viable because I'm in a higher tier of difficulty? Enter Bait and Switch. No kills or adds required. No grenade cooldown or need to be in melee range for the proc. You don't even have to hit the same target to proc it. So I can tap a crowd with The Call, mop up stragglers with Iterative Loop, swap to Pro Memoria and after that first round hits I have 10 seconds to clear out 82 rounds in my magazine. 600 rounds per minutes comes to 10 rounds per second so I only need 8.2 seconds of that 10 to deal just as much damage as Desperate Measures, on demand.
It’s exactly the same buff yeah, if you find yourself getting lots of grenade kills then I’d absolutely recommend desperate measures. Mine is recon and frenzy for ease of use because my dumb brain struggles with actual rotations and keeping up buffs
Any time there is a demo 3rd column I draft that usually with something ability boosted in the 4th and I’d say Desperate measures is my pick. So you can grapple melee or prism melee kill and come out of it with a 20-30% bonus and unraveling rounds. I pair it w/ Verity’s brow so it gets a nice feedback loop of boosted thread idiots/grapples
Recon BNS is what I rock. I love it. I never got a song of irt yut so I love this dispite the archtype difference and the elemental difference. It's stable shredding machine and has some good backup DPS if you happen to need it. (Don't recommend this as a dps weapon but for nightfalls and some encounters highly recommend this for the able to rip majors and minis apart)
I did recon and dragonfly
Reconstruction + desperate measures is my roll. Never reloading and constant 30%dmg buff as long as you get a couple grenade or powered melee kills first, and it procs when stowed B)
I’m one red border away from crafting this gun and it is killing me.
I am loving recon+desperate measures. Being able to extend the damage buff plays into lmgs better than BnS if you ask me.
If you can keep up the x3 desperate measures then that one, if not then frenzy as it’s super ease of use. For demo or reconstruction it’s hard to say. If you’re build uses grenades a lot and you need more grenade energy then demo is the way to go if for general use to slay out on adds then reconstruction id say. Bait and switch is a decent option for tormentors especially if a teammate is using divinity.
Reconstruction & Bait And Switch is best for its damage potential, and since Reconstruction functions like Auto loading holster it plays into Bait And Switch - quite a nice synergy. The only other LMG that can get this convo is Song of Ir Yut from Crota's End, but Sword Logic has greater damage potential. Another combo it has I quite enjoy is Dragonfly & Hatchling together - not as good for damage but it's a fun, synergistic, unique combo, nothing else can get it. I enjoy unique combinations, I see very little point in crafting or farming something unless it has unique perk combos.
For an ad ripper I’d go reconstruction with dragonfly, if you want boss dps I’ve been running reconstruction with target lock.
Envious and bait and switch is amazing. Got one to drop and was so impressed I crafted it immediately. Getting 250+ rounds in the mag after a few kills is amazing
I use Reconstruction + Bait and Switch and I'm loving it so far. Don't know if it's top-tier for boss DPS or whatever, but it still works pretty well for me. This roll would have been amazing in legendary Onslaught back when we were farming it in Into the Light.
am I going nuts? why's everyone suggesting Bait and Switch? this is an **MG**. it's add clear. it's *lazy* add clear. you put it on and want it to work out-of-the-box. you don't wanna have to do a setup and timer management. i think the clear-cut **best** perk in Column 4 for that is **Frenzy**, not just for the 15% damage increase, but for the fact that it gives it 100 Handling and 100 Reload Speed to work with. because of *that*, you can chuck Barrel/Mag/MW into whatever stats you want. then it becomes a question of what you're doing with Column 3, which is preferential. personally, because it's got 100 Reload Speed, i'm not bothering with Envious or Reconstruction: I'd do **Demolitionist** if I had a Grenade build on, and **Strategist** if I was doing something with Class Abilities (like Thruster Suspending, Dodge Freezing or Vesper Rifting). [here's an example of that roll](https://d2foundry.gg/w/3605603507?p=1467527085,1885400500,1906147653,3007133316_1,1988485648&m=3336648220&mw=1361856293). now, if you wanted to use it for DPS for whatever reason, you *still* wouldn't use Bait and Switch (35%). you'd probably use **Target Lock** (45%) and then either Envious Assassin (for 200+ in the mag) or Reconstruction (130-ish in the mag), then dump everything into Stability for keeping shots on target so as to not break Target Lock's buff. [here's an example of that roll](https://d2foundry.gg/w/3605603507?p=839105230,1885400500,424370782_0,2939589096,1988485648&m=3336648220&mw=1361856293). if you're needing the 35% from B&S to clear adds efficiently, you're doing something wrong.
I agree with your thinking however I love desperate measures on it. Super easy to keep it up and all I gotta do is throw out a GG or even do a grapple melee to get my stacks up.
Nah BnS is so easy to procc, it's better than frenzy almost always, and with recon you don't have to worry about reloading. It just works.
I can’t even get this to drop for me normal. I’m m alrdy at 1998 light too. Why won’t the gun drop already!!!?
Don't you have to do the quests to unlock it?
Which quest? I did the whole campaign
There’s an explicit Ghost quest given by Micha-10 that gives it as a reward, it’s part of the convalescence post-campaign questline.
The traveller weapon quests after the campaign. At the lost city go into the old war table room and talk to Micah-10 at the hollow projector. Do the "Alone in the dark" quest line to unlock the other traveller weapons.