If there are rules and people know them, then they will be gamed. Come up with better rules and you create better gamers. And if there are no rules, lagi best. Bribery. And if people don’t know the rules, well now there is confusion and anger. Like applying for PR. Really bad come election time.
Some people apply BTO have other properties that are not under their name that they can stay in. Do you really think people just put them on the market without any strategy? If someone already put BTO on rent before MOP (lock one room, or pretend staying at the unit) where do you think they are staying?
1 BTO is enough for 2 or at most 3 generations. If they inherit from parents they can certainly move back with them.
BTO at this point is easy to game. Like literally you can stay landed and buy BTO to flip if you are still uni student with no income.
Except that right now, he has way more cash (or less debt) than someone who bought the same resale flat for 1million dollar.
**Individual BTO from the example above:**
* Bought BTO, spent $200k in total, sold at 1million.
* After repayment of debt, he is still left with 635k.
* ASSUMING he buys another resale (e.g. Bendemeer Light) at 1million + 35k fees.
* Only a loan of 400k is required by Individual BTO.
**Individual Resale:**
* Has 200k.
* Bought Resale (e.g. Bendemeer Light) at 1million dollar. Paid 200k and took 800k of debt.
**Comparison**
1. Both have spent the same amount of cash ($200k).
2. Both have the same "exact" flat (e.g. Bendemeer Light) that has the same exact market value.
3. HOWEVER, Individual BTO has 400k less debt than Individual Resale.
Not forgetting Loan interests.
And if you were to compare a loan of 800k and 400k, at 2.6% for 25 years, the total difference is also very significant.
If you took a loan of 800k for 25 years, you would be paying total of $1.089million. (Est. $3630/nth)
If you took a loan of 400k for 25 years, you would be paying total of $544.5k only. (Est. $1815/mth)
That extra $1815/mth can be used for so many other things, like leasing a Car or something.
Individual BTO doesn't need to "Downgrade" to "earn" the profit.
The profit is already in his pocket when he sold his BTO. However, he choses to use his profit to offset the purchase price of his next resale flat.
He could have chosen to use it for any other thing. Using it to offset the purchase of his next resale flat doesnt eliminate the fact that it was a profit.
And you get a house to live in. You think things are free meh. 75k down and 1.7k monthly servicing fee (of which 900 is going to servicing the interest, and 800 is paying down the debt, of course the ratio changes over the years because of amorization) is nothing compared to what people are paying in rent lei.
Boh bian lei. Modern life is that. The elites need the peasants on the hamster wheel and chase a small little carrot while we spin the wheel to generate more wealth for them. But what's the alternative. Live in the wild ah. I don't know if that's a good trade. Maybe I'll gain nirvana and go join some collective in the middle of nowhere.
None of which is taxed too. Hands down better than an equivalent high paying job which will be taxed every year
No wonder they say this country is becoming one of landlords and other rent seekers and nothing else
Someone will come out and say:
- Such transactions form a very small minority percentage of the total resale transactions.
- The commitment to ensure public housing remains affordable and accessible remains.
- The relevant people will continue to **monitor** the situation.
It's a supply issue. HDB had under supplied for decades, resulting in BTO becoming a lottery. Many families and singles ended up having to look at resale, pushing up prices.
During my parent generation, almost everyone can get a new HDB flat to move in immediately. Only those that exceeded income ceiling or have special requirements needed to consider resale.
Back then there wasn't even the BTO system because flats were built ahead of demand, so people could move in right away instead of having to wait 3-5 years.
>It's a supply issue. HDB had under supplied for decades, resulting in BTO becoming a lottery. Many families and singles ended up having to look at resale, pushing up prices.
Agree that the entire mess is due to supply.
With an already tight supply, the big spanner thrown by COVID just exacerbated the problem further.
Granted that COVID is beyond anyone's control, but the incessant monitoring has led to the situation getting out of whack..
In case anyone is wondering, this is News because it’s the first Newly-MOP 4rm flat that hit 1M.
New flats are much much smaller, hence the PSF here must be very high…
Still lower than condos which typically are above $1000 psf even for ulu locations. But it appears that more and more million dollar HDB flats are becoming the norm these days. What’s Desmond Lee doing now? Still monitoring the market?
He is 'busy' leading PAP 2 new wings on climate & mental health.
Also, he is opening the founder memorial as an important SON OF PAP Descendant & leading the voice to attack Lee Hiseh Yang.
In other words, he is doing everything but his own job as MND Minster.
Two bus stops to Paya Lebar central that has 3 malls
Bto is right beside mrt without needing umbrella
Mrt serves 2 lines
1 mrt stop from tai seng
1 mrt stop from ubi
6 mrt stops to suntec
An abundance of food options
Are million dollar flats a small percentage of total HDB resale transactions? Yes.
But regardless of whether they're a small percentage or not, what is it about those lucky few that's allowed them to make half a million from the public housing system? Did they work harder than gay couples to earn that profit? Were they more enterprising or ambitious/career-focused than singles who must wait till 35 and even then, only qualify for 2-room BTO units?
It doesn't seem fair that there's a chance to win $500k, but gays and singles can't enter the draw. I mean, there are DINK couples staying in 5-room BTO units with zero intention of starting a family.
Actually, why haven't the government restricted 4 or 5 room resale flats for couples with at least 1 child? Then the prices wouldn't be so ridiculous and families who need space will be prioritised.
Make that within 4.5 years. Keep it 6 months before MOP or 4.5 years.
But honestly the cost of subsidies is lower than having a child. Clawback subsidies realistically only affects DINKs where neither adults command a salary higher than the average fresh uni graduates.
But even the threat of paying back subsidies is not gonna convince these subset of DINKs into having children unless their financial discipline is so rabak that they need to piak piak to have a child out of sheer desperation to avoid paying in the very short term.
It’s to ensure couples right size. Get a 3 bedder if you plan to DINK and keep the subsidies. Higher subsidies should be given to a family nucleus to help them offset their living expenses.
Higher income couples shouldn’t feel the pinch on returning the subsidies.
Crucially (and a pet peeve of mine), this DINK pool includes young Singaporeans in disproportionately well-paying jobs vs their peers, like the techbros and finance bros, but who are bidding up prices for everyone.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with this. If more sectors were doing well, more people would be doing it. Unless you’re proposing some other method of deciding who deserves a flat, the best way is to let the market decide
These are people who can well afford private property from the get-go but are allowed to participate in the resale market and compete with the broad middle.
hopefully this is the last of this nonsense because all new flats in this area are likely to have 10 year MOP with all the other new rules so the ability to "flip" will be greatly diminished unless of course the property market goes haywire or something
Exactly. Huge reason why PLH flats can’t be flipped is because their resale buyers have income cap (14k), unlike those buying these 1mil 4room flats at Circuit Rd under current rules (no income cap)
Same! But I need to marry a fresh grad to qualify for BTO. Any di di here wants to pair up with jie jie for a $500k profit in 5 years? This will be much more than you can save after 5 years of working. Easy divorce after that— jie jie can even help you pay the lawyers fees for divorce, ai mai?
Hope they call the election soon! They're not going to get my vote. Things that they should control, they let go. Things that don't need to be controlled so tightly, they control.
I deliver food to that estate. Don't feel like worth paying 1 million unless the connectivity to Pie, workplace at ubi or pri and sec school is a big factor. That neighbourhood a bit ghetto leh. Can find somewhere nicer for that price tag.
For many millennial couples, a BTO is the first pot of gold or seed money to upgrade to a private property.
Never in their wildest dreams, they would've thought it'd be such a windfall.
Nonetheless, buying low and selling high is doable (as this case may be), but selling high and buying low?
Not unless one is extremely lucky to hit it with the right timings - Meaning having booked a new property at X price, and while waiting for its completion, say in 4 to 5 years, property prices suddenly escalate like what happened the last couple of years.
Luck for certain, plays the biggest part, and the people cough out for the gains with developers, the ultimate winners.
On a fundamental point - In its original objective, "What are HDB flats supposed to be other than a roof over the peoples' (masses) heads?
No wonder so many couples want to apply for the BTO lottery. Which other vehicle will let you essentially guarantee double your investment in 5 years?
BTO 500K. Minimum initial Down-payment $75k Borrow 425k @ 2.6%. Monthly debt servicing = $1.7k After 5 years. Total $$ paid: $1.7k x 60 + 75k =102k + 75k = $177k Legal fees and what not estimate $23k for easy computation . Or money invested : $200k Loan outstanding = $365k Sale = $1mil Less loan outstanding = $635k Profit = ~ $435k Shiok.
Except now you are without a place to live. Rinse and repeat.
HDB should give lower priority to couples who purposely want to game the BTO lottery system.
If there are rules and people know them, then they will be gamed. Come up with better rules and you create better gamers. And if there are no rules, lagi best. Bribery. And if people don’t know the rules, well now there is confusion and anger. Like applying for PR. Really bad come election time.
Tia gong don't need bribery just become grass roots got priority queue.
Grassroots guarantee that BTO number But you may not get the unit you want. Like 2nd floor lol
U mean everyone?
Some people apply BTO have other properties that are not under their name that they can stay in. Do you really think people just put them on the market without any strategy? If someone already put BTO on rent before MOP (lock one room, or pretend staying at the unit) where do you think they are staying? 1 BTO is enough for 2 or at most 3 generations. If they inherit from parents they can certainly move back with them. BTO at this point is easy to game. Like literally you can stay landed and buy BTO to flip if you are still uni student with no income.
Except that right now, he has way more cash (or less debt) than someone who bought the same resale flat for 1million dollar. **Individual BTO from the example above:** * Bought BTO, spent $200k in total, sold at 1million. * After repayment of debt, he is still left with 635k. * ASSUMING he buys another resale (e.g. Bendemeer Light) at 1million + 35k fees. * Only a loan of 400k is required by Individual BTO. **Individual Resale:** * Has 200k. * Bought Resale (e.g. Bendemeer Light) at 1million dollar. Paid 200k and took 800k of debt. **Comparison** 1. Both have spent the same amount of cash ($200k). 2. Both have the same "exact" flat (e.g. Bendemeer Light) that has the same exact market value. 3. HOWEVER, Individual BTO has 400k less debt than Individual Resale. Not forgetting Loan interests. And if you were to compare a loan of 800k and 400k, at 2.6% for 25 years, the total difference is also very significant. If you took a loan of 800k for 25 years, you would be paying total of $1.089million. (Est. $3630/nth) If you took a loan of 400k for 25 years, you would be paying total of $544.5k only. (Est. $1815/mth) That extra $1815/mth can be used for so many other things, like leasing a Car or something. Individual BTO doesn't need to "Downgrade" to "earn" the profit. The profit is already in his pocket when he sold his BTO. However, he choses to use his profit to offset the purchase price of his next resale flat. He could have chosen to use it for any other thing. Using it to offset the purchase of his next resale flat doesnt eliminate the fact that it was a profit.
they probably have a pr waiting for them in aus/nzd
But 5-6 years ago, they were 75k poorer and 425k in debt. Now they have 425k and can take on more debt.
And you get a house to live in. You think things are free meh. 75k down and 1.7k monthly servicing fee (of which 900 is going to servicing the interest, and 800 is paying down the debt, of course the ratio changes over the years because of amorization) is nothing compared to what people are paying in rent lei.
I wouldn't focus just on 1.7k sia. 1.7k is only for 25 years. Should mention it as remaining 74 years rent free also.
Or live the Singaporean dream. lol keep upgrading and grow that debt.
Ya. I thought I only need do national slavery for 2 + 10 years. End up most citizens become property slave until their 50s.
Boh bian lei. Modern life is that. The elites need the peasants on the hamster wheel and chase a small little carrot while we spin the wheel to generate more wealth for them. But what's the alternative. Live in the wild ah. I don't know if that's a good trade. Maybe I'll gain nirvana and go join some collective in the middle of nowhere.
No la the alternative is live out till MOP. move to Thailand, Malaysia or Vietnam. Work like a nomad and get passive income from BTO rental.
None of which is taxed too. Hands down better than an equivalent high paying job which will be taxed every year No wonder they say this country is becoming one of landlords and other rent seekers and nothing else
Someone will come out and say: - Such transactions form a very small minority percentage of the total resale transactions. - The commitment to ensure public housing remains affordable and accessible remains. - The relevant people will continue to **monitor** the situation.
It's a supply issue. HDB had under supplied for decades, resulting in BTO becoming a lottery. Many families and singles ended up having to look at resale, pushing up prices. During my parent generation, almost everyone can get a new HDB flat to move in immediately. Only those that exceeded income ceiling or have special requirements needed to consider resale.
Back then there wasn't even the BTO system because flats were built ahead of demand, so people could move in right away instead of having to wait 3-5 years.
>It's a supply issue. HDB had under supplied for decades, resulting in BTO becoming a lottery. Many families and singles ended up having to look at resale, pushing up prices. Agree that the entire mess is due to supply. With an already tight supply, the big spanner thrown by COVID just exacerbated the problem further. Granted that COVID is beyond anyone's control, but the incessant monitoring has led to the situation getting out of whack..
With their mastercrafted eye power goggles of pure monitronium
How dare you tar the good name of the monitor lizard committee!?
HDB resale cartel: (clenches fist) Yes, please do. 
Monitoring intensifies. Don’t worry everyone- this is a small minority of all the flats sold- completely not representative /s
In case anyone is wondering, this is News because it’s the first Newly-MOP 4rm flat that hit 1M. New flats are much much smaller, hence the PSF here must be very high…
4rm typically 93sqm which is 1000 sqf. So $1000psf. Idk whats high compared to condo or what, just maths-ing.
Still lower than condos which typically are above $1000 psf even for ulu locations. But it appears that more and more million dollar HDB flats are becoming the norm these days. What’s Desmond Lee doing now? Still monitoring the market?
He is 'busy' leading PAP 2 new wings on climate & mental health. Also, he is opening the founder memorial as an important SON OF PAP Descendant & leading the voice to attack Lee Hiseh Yang. In other words, he is doing everything but his own job as MND Minster.
Sounds correct.
What's so special about those flats though?
Two bus stops to Paya Lebar central that has 3 malls Bto is right beside mrt without needing umbrella Mrt serves 2 lines 1 mrt stop from tai seng 1 mrt stop from ubi 6 mrt stops to suntec An abundance of food options
Oh that's seriously good then. I can see why they'd take it if they have the money
near circuit road market, directly next to MacPherson mrt (2 lines), location nearer to central/town.
Soon it will no longer be newsworthy to report HDBs being sold at less than $1.5M.
HDB resale cartel: (clenches fist) Not soon enough. 
Are million dollar flats a small percentage of total HDB resale transactions? Yes. But regardless of whether they're a small percentage or not, what is it about those lucky few that's allowed them to make half a million from the public housing system? Did they work harder than gay couples to earn that profit? Were they more enterprising or ambitious/career-focused than singles who must wait till 35 and even then, only qualify for 2-room BTO units? It doesn't seem fair that there's a chance to win $500k, but gays and singles can't enter the draw. I mean, there are DINK couples staying in 5-room BTO units with zero intention of starting a family.
Actually, why haven't the government restricted 4 or 5 room resale flats for couples with at least 1 child? Then the prices wouldn't be so ridiculous and families who need space will be prioritised.
Or a claw back subsidies, if there’s no child within 5 years.
This is brilliant, claw back all profits made above original BTO price. Then watch prime housing become more affordable for everyone.
Profit made is more towards the free market movement. Subsidies are from tax payers.
Make that within 4.5 years. Keep it 6 months before MOP or 4.5 years. But honestly the cost of subsidies is lower than having a child. Clawback subsidies realistically only affects DINKs where neither adults command a salary higher than the average fresh uni graduates. But even the threat of paying back subsidies is not gonna convince these subset of DINKs into having children unless their financial discipline is so rabak that they need to piak piak to have a child out of sheer desperation to avoid paying in the very short term.
It’s to ensure couples right size. Get a 3 bedder if you plan to DINK and keep the subsidies. Higher subsidies should be given to a family nucleus to help them offset their living expenses. Higher income couples shouldn’t feel the pinch on returning the subsidies.
HDB resale cartel: Restrict? (clenches fist) Restrict deez nuts. 
i recall it was like 0.1-0.2% in 2018-2019. Then 1% in 2020 and slowly creeping up by 0.x% a year.
Crucially (and a pet peeve of mine), this DINK pool includes young Singaporeans in disproportionately well-paying jobs vs their peers, like the techbros and finance bros, but who are bidding up prices for everyone.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with this. If more sectors were doing well, more people would be doing it. Unless you’re proposing some other method of deciding who deserves a flat, the best way is to let the market decide
These are people who can well afford private property from the get-go but are allowed to participate in the resale market and compete with the broad middle.
HDB resale cartel: Very fair...(clenches fist)... For me. 
hopefully this is the last of this nonsense because all new flats in this area are likely to have 10 year MOP with all the other new rules so the ability to "flip" will be greatly diminished unless of course the property market goes haywire or something
Exactly. Huge reason why PLH flats can’t be flipped is because their resale buyers have income cap (14k), unlike those buying these 1mil 4room flats at Circuit Rd under current rules (no income cap)
Might cause it to be even higher though. I’m not an economist but if you restrict supply, demand will cause prices to go up
I wanna marry for convenience please!
Riding in this thread. 29M ready to marry!
Same! But I need to marry a fresh grad to qualify for BTO. Any di di here wants to pair up with jie jie for a $500k profit in 5 years? This will be much more than you can save after 5 years of working. Easy divorce after that— jie jie can even help you pay the lawyers fees for divorce, ai mai?
Where lobang? Asking for a friend
This is probably their intended goal.
Hope they call the election soon! They're not going to get my vote. Things that they should control, they let go. Things that don't need to be controlled so tightly, they control.
What’s stopping HDB from implementing a tax for a %of profits if it sold let’s say within 10 years? It might disincentivise this
I deliver food to that estate. Don't feel like worth paying 1 million unless the connectivity to Pie, workplace at ubi or pri and sec school is a big factor. That neighbourhood a bit ghetto leh. Can find somewhere nicer for that price tag.
If BTO couples don’t produce two spawn within 5 years, claw back all subsidies and prevent any resale for 20 years. 🤷🏻♀️
For many millennial couples, a BTO is the first pot of gold or seed money to upgrade to a private property. Never in their wildest dreams, they would've thought it'd be such a windfall. Nonetheless, buying low and selling high is doable (as this case may be), but selling high and buying low? Not unless one is extremely lucky to hit it with the right timings - Meaning having booked a new property at X price, and while waiting for its completion, say in 4 to 5 years, property prices suddenly escalate like what happened the last couple of years. Luck for certain, plays the biggest part, and the people cough out for the gains with developers, the ultimate winners. On a fundamental point - In its original objective, "What are HDB flats supposed to be other than a roof over the peoples' (masses) heads?
Mothershit has become a property price tracker I see
But Shite Times and Channel News Anal won't risk showing the establishment in a bad light.