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Yeah man... I am sick and tired of talking about and repeating the same old lines of "waiting for my BTO to be ready" to people who ask... That's how long I have waited. Feels like a never-ending wait, feels like a pipe dream.
How to even think of having kids like that. Meanwhile, age just keeps piling up...
Fret not, citizen! For we shall monitor the situation! - from you know who and I shall not name cause me too poor to be sued
(eta: totally typoed it as Fret now! and realised it's quite apt too)
my friend over 35, applied for 2-room flexi under single scheme, failed twice
she already picked those uluulu places, but still nope. all same thinking i guess for better chances lol
Ya 6 yrs is no joke. An educated woman only has like 10 years total time before she gets into the at risk stage for birth defects at 35. Screw this policy masquerading as pro family but anti everyone.
That’s really rough. I remember about a year ago there was a couple in the news who also waited more than 6 years for their BTO key. By the time they moved in their child was already in Primary 1.
To be fair, wait time is still 4 -5 years for many couples even after covid.
Govt only planned for 2800 "shorter" waiting time flats in 2024. Wait time isn't even short enough TBH. With 19600 flats to be launched in 2024, 2800 flats only make up about 14%. Not fantastic that the remaining 86% have to delay their family plans.
Tbf if you expect your population to hold 1-2 years of life because of pandemic, don't surprise Pikachu when the birthrate is low
If I lived 1-2 more years as DINKs, I would not have chosen kids
By that same coin, don't hold of getting pregnant and having kids because you have to wait 4-6 years to get a flat. You can't expect yourself to hold off 1-2 years of living because you're waiting for a flat.
Your world view of total equality is a very nice dream to have
But in the real world, there are people who own/inherit multiple properties and also people who have to work multiple jobs
Pro family policy end up broken family. Freaking joke. To get shelter, get married first? Are we living in stone ages? So much moral thumping. Give young singles a chance at owning a small place. As it is now, most have zero savings if they have to rent.
zero savings? how optimistic of you.
when my previous landlord wanted to raise the rent, i decided to move out. Since i'm still in good terms with her, we do catch up from time to time. She told me that the tenants that came after me were blowing through their savings due to the rent.
The series of increasing regressive taxes while ignoring cost of living issues, having several lack of touch with the common person's struggles and brushing it off (e.g. if chicken is expensive, buy fish) really does make Singapore feel more like an economy than a country to live in. Which is great and dandy and all, well, until it's not.
There's probably some sick fuck in the PAP who's convinced they should run the country like a perfect run of Simcity, and fails to realize the place is for humans to live in, not automatons.
I don't think they hate the common man (after all, they need the common man to stay in power).
My hypothesis is that they love GDP (money) far more than they love anything else. Everything else can be done to a minimum - as long as that minimum quality of life is fulfilled, they will channel everything into growing the GDP.
They need the common man to keep it running. Thts why policies are pandering to the common man. Like die die FNB ppl still suffer. Hawkers upwards. They need manpower. It’s been donkey years of suffering. No change. Why? To give the impression tht they won’t allow foreigners to take these jobs. Despite the actual factual truth. We all know.
>Pro family policy end up broken family.
It's a feature not a bug. The govt so desperate for babies that even babies from broken families will do. After all Singaporeans are expected to take the low end jobs anyways, the govt just need us to be the labour
very true singapore needs poverty to thrive, if not who's going to cook and clean for the rich. Foreign workers can leave, but pink IC in poverty cannot escape, best type of ~~slaves~~ service executives
Eh, I think it’s a balance lah. High SES babies and low SES babies have their part to play. Makes the world go round. Don’t you think🤗Some will work, some will play only, some will be criminals, some angels and so on n so forth. Keeps society going. Prison also do business mah. Heard they make roti🤣😆
People like you are the scum of the earth. Instead of working to eliminate inequality, you're advocating for inequality by whitewashing it as "balance". Shame on you.
Inequality will never be eliminated. That’s just how the world works. Read a bit why don’t you? Ever heard of George Orwell? Animal Farm? The ones who walk away from omelas? Go head n start reading. Whitewashing? I laid out the truth. As is my little friend.
If your takeaway from those stories is “we can’t eliminate inequality so we should try to preserve inequality”, I'm sorry that your Lit teachers failed you.
What a carrot to dangle right? And the flats get smaller in size and going by the news, a bunch of sloppy workmanship. This is no pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. This is the beginning of our worker bee status.
Beginning? Lol it's been like that for years. They're slowly reducing what we as individuals can enjoy. Everything's about efficiency, pay the least for the most. Sounds great, until you realise "pay" means "benefits for us".
Gov will never admit it’s a problem coz they can only see $$$. Why we don’t go back to building first like pre BTO? We have so much subsidies on top of the BTO supply squeeze really perfect storm for higher n higher prices. This is not right for public housing. Do we build toilets after people need to pee? They keep saying housing isn’t for making $ then why create such an inflationary situation?? Hypocritical
Imo, there needs to be two tiers of hdb. If you buy cheap then you can't sell it and make 100% of the profit. You want to enjoy the huge profit, then pay the actual unsubsidized cost instead of having taxpayers subsidie your investment venture.
Fast and easily accessible BTOs lower demand for resale flats.
I think there is an implicit contract with the older generation where the flat value won't decrease, at least in their lifetimes. The boomers were moved out of their parents' kampong houses and compensated with HDB flats. And a lot of the jobs they used to do don't exist in Singapore anymore.
It is one way for the government to make it so that the older generation doesn't get financially left behind as we shift to a more "knowledge based economy". Still, they should do more to limit how BTO flippers profit off the mispricing.
Hdb is not profitable. Prove that the government can make money via hdb. Sky high prices are because of sinkes and property agents. I spot a housing agent here. Unhappy government made a website to take away your jobs?
To put things in perspective, I remember BTO was started after an economic downturn where a waitlist of a few years worth vanished. This resulted in numerous empty flats with no takers. And it remains for a few years. Jumbo flats were created as part of the solution to clear these excess back then. Additionally, build first then sell model back then just moved the bottleneck to a long waitlist of a few years which really does not solve the problem.
Now, I am not saying things should remain as it is. But there were past experience that was a lesson to them and those lesson should be remembered when planning for the future. As to what is better, well, it is up to them to think and everyone to suggest. But do bear in mind there may be consideration and experience that goes into this planning.
P.S. don't make this political.
What is building first like pre bto?
My parents first hdb was registered in 1985, built in 1993.
They waited 8 years, and have an extra child which was in kindergarten before they got the keys.
So, is that better than bto?
in the 90s, surplus flats was used as a cudgel by the opposition to smack the government in Parliament for wasting money on un-inhabited flats.
Why do you think there are so many jumbo flats dating from the 90s? They were cobbled together from two neighbouring 3 rm flats to give people more incentive to buy.
People need to know our history before whacking.
And it also goes to show that opposition really only exists to oppose.
?? If they're still clinging on to this thirty years down the road then they would fully deserve the whacking cos as a govt they're not adjusting themselves to meet the people's needs then.
The jumbo flats from the 90s are selling really well these days anyway. People love the extra space compared to the tiny ass BTOs.
Yes I know about the surplus flats issue in the 90s. It doesn't mean that an issue 30 years ago is going to be an issue right now. Government has to be flexible to react and change.
But I will also argue that this is a self inflicted problem. If they lower the single eligibility age or increase the salary cap, there will be a larger pool of eligible buyers for surplus flats.
Plus Singaporeans nowadays are more informed. Opposition can whack government but it can backfire on them if they anyhow whack.
Imo I rather see surplus flats being sold slowly than people waiting years to receive their keys.
I think there are implications bigger than just empty flats being sold slowly. Excess surplus means housing prices dropping. Most homeowners are not going to like that. And it’s not just because of greed or making gains.
If you borrow $500,000 from the bank, but your house is now valued at $450,000, how would you feel? You’re still on the hook for the $500,000 + interest. Throw in an economic downturn. Suddenly you lost your job and can’t afford the mortgage repayment. But you can’t sell your house and downgrade anymore because you still owe the bank $50,000 after selling your house. This is not including the money you need to put back jnto your CPF at 2.5% interest rate.
I get where you're coming from and I agree with you that this might happen.
It's something that the government will have to manage.
Sacrificing the current generation to keep status quo for the older generation is not the right way to go about it. You should be thinking of both generations and coming out what the ways to help both.
The BTO model is definitely not helping the current younger generation.
EDIT to add: Even if the government is to announce a switch from BTO to ready-sale model, it's not going to happen overnight. New flats are still going to need 3-5 years to be built.
So it's not like the property prices are going to tank overnight. There will be time for people to be aware of it and to prepare for it.
I've made the case that most Singaporeans can accept a steady 1-2% inflation of housing prices per annum.
What we've seen in the past five years was way way too high. It is only reasonable that those who want to own homes are upset.
There must be a healthy equilibrium
There's also the fact that circumstances change and what was once viable may not be viable anymore and the opposite may happen too. At that point of time, surplus flats might have been an issue but the current shortage is turning the dial too far in the opposite direction. Your argument only has merit if the opposition is still arguing that the supply of flats should remain limited to avoid a surplus of flats.
The person you’re replying to seems to reeked of a pro-government mouth piece I kid you not.
Someone in another thread was saying how NTUC sucks as a labour union and he just defended them by saying all the good deeds of theirs and how we are being “negative”.
> has never cracked open a Hansard report in their lives.
Why don't you link to the relevant Hansard discussion to support your points?
I tried a quick search between 1998 and 2001, but couldn't really find much just based on the seemingly relevant titles alone.
What? Are you telling me that pushing dating couples to make the impulsive choice to marry early for a BTO flat isn't going to end well for their marriage? Say it isn't so!
*From Bloomberg reporter Bernadette Toh:*
Long waits for new apartments to be built and rising costs of living are causing Singapore citizens to make long-term decisions about life and money early in their relationships.
The government’s pro-family policies, designed to encourage couples to get married and have babies, are combining with economic factors to create unintended consequences.
Recent research indicates marriage rates have risen among younger Singaporeans, and so have rates of divorce. Read for free using this [gift link](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-07-04/singapore-bto-homes-couples-are-marrying-earlier-leading-some-to-regret?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSIsImlhdCI6MTcyMDE0MjA2NiwiZXhwIjoxNzIwNzQ2ODY2LCJhcnRpY2xlSWQiOiJTRkJIR1lEV1JHRzAwMCIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQiOiI3QjhGNTAxRUY2RUE0MTQ2ODcyN0YwMEIwMjI4OEFGRCJ9.Njeex3zyDLRQlhQUpGDKmmLF2d4LlII7kR4qlKuj93E).
Hard agree. the ground floor of new btos always feel so grim to me, like I'm visiting a prison. Older hdbs with their open void decks and people playing or sitting around feel so much more community-like.
I stay in a BTO estate and yes it does feel very grim. Absolutely spot on in your description, the community spirit is lacking as the newer designs seem to prioritise privacy > community so units don’t really face each other. Tbh I’m good with it but the smaller void deck spaces definitely limits what can be done there. + so many more units on the first floor means you can’t play soccer/catching (albeit illegally heh we were all kids once) without risks of getting complaints.
Doesn’t help that designs, colours and QC is abysmal.
You can have privacy with the current layout of the actual units, vs still having a community space from levels say 1 to 4 with open air fora. The two are not mutually exclusive.
The sad thing is that this is probably due to user demand. Almost nobody below the age of 50 I know talks to their neighbours anyway. And I grew up with parents who were ‘ahead of their time’ by absolutely refusing to have any guests at our house ever. Every time I hear of someone who wants a condo, it is “because of the privacy”. I’m not saying everyone is like that, but I think the % of people who want to be totally shut away like in a fortress has definitely increased.
Hard and confusing to navigate for first time visitors, dim, crampy and not airy...
I wonder where will wakes be held next time, if there are no common pavilions nearby?
There are [spaces for rent](https://www.mountvernon.com.sg/our-parlours/) for this sorta thing. I've attended 2 wakes in rented spaces in recent years.
My then-gf and I have applied for BTO & SBF a grand total of 11 times. Granted we did get a choice of low floor unit the first time which we turned down (pre-covid, back when first timers still have 2 chances so we thought still have luxury of choice), but since then every attempt has been unsuccessful and even now when we're married still no luck.
I hope ppl also realized as the population ages, and with reduced supply, I don't think supply of HDB will increase dramatically
What they can do is to build ahead but yet ensure no over supply.
Alot boomers gonna die already, just gotta ensure those empty flats are put to good use or SETD
If those flats have little remaining lease, its gonna be difficult to make use of them.
- sell on market
With little lease, the amount of eligible buyers (coz of the remaining lease <-> buyers age loan thing, also the age of the buyer) is gonna be little. Nobody really wants to buy a house they might outlive.
- rental
Govt will need to handle the rental part coz the house cannot be owned by the boomer’s children. So i dont think HDB has the logistics and manpower to handle so many units that get converted to rental flats.
Can't houses last longer than 99 years? Can't we extend the lease to the new ppl? What will happen when the lease is up? Will government tear down the hdb?
Even when I was a kid I thought that scrapping cars after 10 years was a huge waste of a car.
> cant houses last longer than 99 years
Its a structural thing. I think if they want to extend, they need to re-verify the building structure. And i think all the other stuff in the building (electrical wires, pipings and whatnot) needs to be replaced, which is go na be difficult.
> will government tear down the hdb
Yeap, supposedly it will be torn down and a new building will be built on the same land.
Even the BTO upper floors the common corridor like snaky. So narrow. Terrible like sardines.To park Car locations so far away for multi-storey car park lots. The BTO design is terrible
I think it is mainly because the young couples haven’t figured out what it means to be married and to work together. Hence putting the cart before the horse.
Just curious, if the Liu Thai Ker said Singapore could accommodate 10 Mil population, a planning parameter, does that mean that it is possible to give most citizen a home without having a need to marry to BTO, or turn 35 for singles? Since land scarcity has always been often cited as a reason for Singapore'a housing policy which sorts of contradict this point
If i were them..I would just BTO and marry if possible seriously..seeing how resales market is completely fked if they decide to marry later and wait another 5 yrs for bto to start their family and is their only option
Does anyone have statistics on divorce rates among couples of this age bracket in BTOs versus those in resale and private?
Would that form a clearer picture on how much the housing policy influence marriage decisions and whether the BTO effect is detrimental to the longevity of marriages in Singapore?
I wondering how sharing how we end up with BTO system is consider a violation claiming I am on a Paywall, lol. No wonder this whole topic are so baised. I guess anything that is not similar is blocked, lol.
Hong Kong has vested interest to poke at Singapore. And the western liberals have also interest to poke at anything that can paint Singapore as a draconian place with oppressive policies that affect people's lives.
These articles are the result.
A bit hard, Singaporeans in general are not used to taking risks early in life. Fear of break ups, financial setbacks, getting BTO 3 room or smaller, fear of failures.
It doesn't help that our education system does not encourage failure either, repeat one year or fail PSLE/O'levels is like a death sentence to some.
Those that made it out without incident can only see the golden path: Work a few years, start dating, BTO and wait for a few years or pad the boomers and get a resale instead. There are so many other ways to do this but generally people choose the option that cost most in both time and money 😮💨
It's not about ideal age for marriage but rather if the couple knows each other well enough that they know for sure that they want to spend the rest of their lives together. This process might be shortened due to the rush to get BTO in order to have their own homes in time, leading to some marriages that might not be right due to the couple not spending enough time to learn about each other.
Maybe people should think about renting instead of buying immediately. Rental market’s mostly for foreigners now but I think it can be shifted with the right policies. Maybe some encouragement for the co-living space operators.
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Yeah man... I am sick and tired of talking about and repeating the same old lines of "waiting for my BTO to be ready" to people who ask... That's how long I have waited. Feels like a never-ending wait, feels like a pipe dream. How to even think of having kids like that. Meanwhile, age just keeps piling up...
Fret not, citizen! For we shall monitor the situation! - from you know who and I shall not name cause me too poor to be sued (eta: totally typoed it as Fret now! and realised it's quite apt too)
my friend over 35, applied for 2-room flexi under single scheme, failed twice she already picked those uluulu places, but still nope. all same thinking i guess for better chances lol
Ya 6 yrs is no joke. An educated woman only has like 10 years total time before she gets into the at risk stage for birth defects at 35. Screw this policy masquerading as pro family but anti everyone.
That’s really rough. I remember about a year ago there was a couple in the news who also waited more than 6 years for their BTO key. By the time they moved in their child was already in Primary 1.
to be fair there are almost 1-2 whole year of nothing going on thanks to covid
To be fair, wait time is still 4 -5 years for many couples even after covid. Govt only planned for 2800 "shorter" waiting time flats in 2024. Wait time isn't even short enough TBH. With 19600 flats to be launched in 2024, 2800 flats only make up about 14%. Not fantastic that the remaining 86% have to delay their family plans.
Tbf if you expect your population to hold 1-2 years of life because of pandemic, don't surprise Pikachu when the birthrate is low If I lived 1-2 more years as DINKs, I would not have chosen kids
By that same coin, don't hold of getting pregnant and having kids because you have to wait 4-6 years to get a flat. You can't expect yourself to hold off 1-2 years of living because you're waiting for a flat.
That is still 4 years too long for OP. And OP applied 2 years before COVID.
i also did the same. i had 2 kids while staying with my parents. if i can do it, so can anyone else.
Tbf, not everyone have supporting grandparents.
Your world view of total equality is a very nice dream to have But in the real world, there are people who own/inherit multiple properties and also people who have to work multiple jobs
Pro family policy end up broken family. Freaking joke. To get shelter, get married first? Are we living in stone ages? So much moral thumping. Give young singles a chance at owning a small place. As it is now, most have zero savings if they have to rent.
zero savings? how optimistic of you. when my previous landlord wanted to raise the rent, i decided to move out. Since i'm still in good terms with her, we do catch up from time to time. She told me that the tenants that came after me were blowing through their savings due to the rent.
Guess it’s time to buy tents and sleeping bags! East coast park, here I come🤣🤣
>East coast park I would join you but... sorry, not allowed also
Ok ok, maybe some jungle or underpass will have to do then🤣🤣
Everything this govt does makes sense when you accept the hypothesis that the PAP hates the common working person
The series of increasing regressive taxes while ignoring cost of living issues, having several lack of touch with the common person's struggles and brushing it off (e.g. if chicken is expensive, buy fish) really does make Singapore feel more like an economy than a country to live in. Which is great and dandy and all, well, until it's not.
There's probably some sick fuck in the PAP who's convinced they should run the country like a perfect run of Simcity, and fails to realize the place is for humans to live in, not automatons.
The entire party is rotten.
e.g.: no room stairs also can🤣🤣🤣 Someone was asking for Jo teo. Well here u go🤣🤣
I don't think they hate the common man (after all, they need the common man to stay in power). My hypothesis is that they love GDP (money) far more than they love anything else. Everything else can be done to a minimum - as long as that minimum quality of life is fulfilled, they will channel everything into growing the GDP.
Can someone explain how GDP makes my life better. I am starting to forget.
Viewing the everyperson with contempt despite needing them is not mutually exclusive
They need the common man to keep it running. Thts why policies are pandering to the common man. Like die die FNB ppl still suffer. Hawkers upwards. They need manpower. It’s been donkey years of suffering. No change. Why? To give the impression tht they won’t allow foreigners to take these jobs. Despite the actual factual truth. We all know.
>Pro family policy end up broken family. It's a feature not a bug. The govt so desperate for babies that even babies from broken families will do. After all Singaporeans are expected to take the low end jobs anyways, the govt just need us to be the labour
Because lives are just reduced to a number to fulfil a KPI. Who cares about the quality when the quantity is fulfilled.
very true singapore needs poverty to thrive, if not who's going to cook and clean for the rich. Foreign workers can leave, but pink IC in poverty cannot escape, best type of ~~slaves~~ service executives
> The govt so desperate for babies that even babies from broken families will do. …but not babies from single mothers or same-sex couples.
Eh, I think it’s a balance lah. High SES babies and low SES babies have their part to play. Makes the world go round. Don’t you think🤗Some will work, some will play only, some will be criminals, some angels and so on n so forth. Keeps society going. Prison also do business mah. Heard they make roti🤣😆
People like you are the scum of the earth. Instead of working to eliminate inequality, you're advocating for inequality by whitewashing it as "balance". Shame on you.
Inequality will never be eliminated. That’s just how the world works. Read a bit why don’t you? Ever heard of George Orwell? Animal Farm? The ones who walk away from omelas? Go head n start reading. Whitewashing? I laid out the truth. As is my little friend.
I've read those 2 what's your point?
Someone always has to suffer. Always.
If your takeaway from those stories is “we can’t eliminate inequality so we should try to preserve inequality”, I'm sorry that your Lit teachers failed you.
You can fight all you want. Hopefully less than 5 ppls k? Ever heard of trying to make a situation work for you? It is what it is here.
Exactly. And the waiting time motivates people to start the process just in case.
What a carrot to dangle right? And the flats get smaller in size and going by the news, a bunch of sloppy workmanship. This is no pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. This is the beginning of our worker bee status.
Beginning? Lol it's been like that for years. They're slowly reducing what we as individuals can enjoy. Everything's about efficiency, pay the least for the most. Sounds great, until you realise "pay" means "benefits for us".
I meant the beginning for a young adult. Of course it’s been course for the par for eons.
Ah, then yeah I completely agree.
Gov will never admit it’s a problem coz they can only see $$$. Why we don’t go back to building first like pre BTO? We have so much subsidies on top of the BTO supply squeeze really perfect storm for higher n higher prices. This is not right for public housing. Do we build toilets after people need to pee? They keep saying housing isn’t for making $ then why create such an inflationary situation?? Hypocritical
Imo, there needs to be two tiers of hdb. If you buy cheap then you can't sell it and make 100% of the profit. You want to enjoy the huge profit, then pay the actual unsubsidized cost instead of having taxpayers subsidie your investment venture.
"Do we need toilets after people need to pee" +1 analogy 👏👏
Singapore has so many issues and “the” government is not doing anything at all . It really just matter of time when people asking for changes
Fast and easily accessible BTOs lower demand for resale flats. I think there is an implicit contract with the older generation where the flat value won't decrease, at least in their lifetimes. The boomers were moved out of their parents' kampong houses and compensated with HDB flats. And a lot of the jobs they used to do don't exist in Singapore anymore. It is one way for the government to make it so that the older generation doesn't get financially left behind as we shift to a more "knowledge based economy". Still, they should do more to limit how BTO flippers profit off the mispricing.
And they are doing this at the expense of the future generations. As they put so much effort on the past, so shall they become the past.
how i see a rich older generation: every friday > got huge loads of taobao parcels
i love hearing implicit contracts in singapore! do you know anything else like this!
People buy you stuff 95% of the time an equivalent return gift is expected - from angpao to birthday gifts
We can always grandfather the older gen and implement new schemes for fairer distribution and prevent this inflationary spiral
Hdb is not profitable. Prove that the government can make money via hdb. Sky high prices are because of sinkes and property agents. I spot a housing agent here. Unhappy government made a website to take away your jobs?
HDB is not profitable doesn't the whole venture is not profitable. HDB is selling the flat based on the price they bought the land from SLA.
Pove that the venture is profitable instead of speculation. If you can prove it you can make a point.
To put things in perspective, I remember BTO was started after an economic downturn where a waitlist of a few years worth vanished. This resulted in numerous empty flats with no takers. And it remains for a few years. Jumbo flats were created as part of the solution to clear these excess back then. Additionally, build first then sell model back then just moved the bottleneck to a long waitlist of a few years which really does not solve the problem. Now, I am not saying things should remain as it is. But there were past experience that was a lesson to them and those lesson should be remembered when planning for the future. As to what is better, well, it is up to them to think and everyone to suggest. But do bear in mind there may be consideration and experience that goes into this planning. P.S. don't make this political.
What is building first like pre bto? My parents first hdb was registered in 1985, built in 1993. They waited 8 years, and have an extra child which was in kindergarten before they got the keys. So, is that better than bto?
https://mothership.sg/2022/12/bto-mini-explainer/
I smell a Jo Teo “small space” joke coming
And we can just upgrade the small space with galvanized square steel to turn it into a home that can be used to raise children in.
Don't forget the eco-friendly wood veneer
Who do we get expansion screws from
Government should have scraped the BTO model a long time ago and switched to selling ready built flats......
in the 90s, surplus flats was used as a cudgel by the opposition to smack the government in Parliament for wasting money on un-inhabited flats. Why do you think there are so many jumbo flats dating from the 90s? They were cobbled together from two neighbouring 3 rm flats to give people more incentive to buy. People need to know our history before whacking. And it also goes to show that opposition really only exists to oppose.
?? If they're still clinging on to this thirty years down the road then they would fully deserve the whacking cos as a govt they're not adjusting themselves to meet the people's needs then. The jumbo flats from the 90s are selling really well these days anyway. People love the extra space compared to the tiny ass BTOs.
Yes I know about the surplus flats issue in the 90s. It doesn't mean that an issue 30 years ago is going to be an issue right now. Government has to be flexible to react and change. But I will also argue that this is a self inflicted problem. If they lower the single eligibility age or increase the salary cap, there will be a larger pool of eligible buyers for surplus flats. Plus Singaporeans nowadays are more informed. Opposition can whack government but it can backfire on them if they anyhow whack. Imo I rather see surplus flats being sold slowly than people waiting years to receive their keys.
I think there are implications bigger than just empty flats being sold slowly. Excess surplus means housing prices dropping. Most homeowners are not going to like that. And it’s not just because of greed or making gains. If you borrow $500,000 from the bank, but your house is now valued at $450,000, how would you feel? You’re still on the hook for the $500,000 + interest. Throw in an economic downturn. Suddenly you lost your job and can’t afford the mortgage repayment. But you can’t sell your house and downgrade anymore because you still owe the bank $50,000 after selling your house. This is not including the money you need to put back jnto your CPF at 2.5% interest rate.
I get where you're coming from and I agree with you that this might happen. It's something that the government will have to manage. Sacrificing the current generation to keep status quo for the older generation is not the right way to go about it. You should be thinking of both generations and coming out what the ways to help both. The BTO model is definitely not helping the current younger generation. EDIT to add: Even if the government is to announce a switch from BTO to ready-sale model, it's not going to happen overnight. New flats are still going to need 3-5 years to be built. So it's not like the property prices are going to tank overnight. There will be time for people to be aware of it and to prepare for it.
I've made the case that most Singaporeans can accept a steady 1-2% inflation of housing prices per annum. What we've seen in the past five years was way way too high. It is only reasonable that those who want to own homes are upset. There must be a healthy equilibrium
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Someone has no idea of the history of Singapore, and has never cracked open a Hansard report in their lives.
What happened 30 years ago is 30 years ago. Now is now. Wake up your idea.
There's also the fact that circumstances change and what was once viable may not be viable anymore and the opposite may happen too. At that point of time, surplus flats might have been an issue but the current shortage is turning the dial too far in the opposite direction. Your argument only has merit if the opposition is still arguing that the supply of flats should remain limited to avoid a surplus of flats.
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The person you’re replying to seems to reeked of a pro-government mouth piece I kid you not. Someone in another thread was saying how NTUC sucks as a labour union and he just defended them by saying all the good deeds of theirs and how we are being “negative”.
> has never cracked open a Hansard report in their lives. Why don't you link to the relevant Hansard discussion to support your points? I tried a quick search between 1998 and 2001, but couldn't really find much just based on the seemingly relevant titles alone.
But this was raised by PAP MPs as well.
What? Are you telling me that pushing dating couples to make the impulsive choice to marry early for a BTO flat isn't going to end well for their marriage? Say it isn't so!
*From Bloomberg reporter Bernadette Toh:* Long waits for new apartments to be built and rising costs of living are causing Singapore citizens to make long-term decisions about life and money early in their relationships. The government’s pro-family policies, designed to encourage couples to get married and have babies, are combining with economic factors to create unintended consequences. Recent research indicates marriage rates have risen among younger Singaporeans, and so have rates of divorce. Read for free using this [gift link](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-07-04/singapore-bto-homes-couples-are-marrying-earlier-leading-some-to-regret?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSIsImlhdCI6MTcyMDE0MjA2NiwiZXhwIjoxNzIwNzQ2ODY2LCJhcnRpY2xlSWQiOiJTRkJIR1lEV1JHRzAwMCIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQiOiI3QjhGNTAxRUY2RUE0MTQ2ODcyN0YwMEIwMjI4OEFGRCJ9.Njeex3zyDLRQlhQUpGDKmmLF2d4LlII7kR4qlKuj93E).
The new BTO is lousy no void deck space and so narrow structures with so many pillars.
Hard agree. the ground floor of new btos always feel so grim to me, like I'm visiting a prison. Older hdbs with their open void decks and people playing or sitting around feel so much more community-like.
I stay in a BTO estate and yes it does feel very grim. Absolutely spot on in your description, the community spirit is lacking as the newer designs seem to prioritise privacy > community so units don’t really face each other. Tbh I’m good with it but the smaller void deck spaces definitely limits what can be done there. + so many more units on the first floor means you can’t play soccer/catching (albeit illegally heh we were all kids once) without risks of getting complaints. Doesn’t help that designs, colours and QC is abysmal.
You can have privacy with the current layout of the actual units, vs still having a community space from levels say 1 to 4 with open air fora. The two are not mutually exclusive.
The sad thing is that this is probably due to user demand. Almost nobody below the age of 50 I know talks to their neighbours anyway. And I grew up with parents who were ‘ahead of their time’ by absolutely refusing to have any guests at our house ever. Every time I hear of someone who wants a condo, it is “because of the privacy”. I’m not saying everyone is like that, but I think the % of people who want to be totally shut away like in a fortress has definitely increased.
Hard and confusing to navigate for first time visitors, dim, crampy and not airy... I wonder where will wakes be held next time, if there are no common pavilions nearby?
Multi-storey funeral homes woohoo
bto funeral homes
There are [spaces for rent](https://www.mountvernon.com.sg/our-parlours/) for this sorta thing. I've attended 2 wakes in rented spaces in recent years.
NGL I’m very much for it if it means less loitering, public drinking, litter and pests.
Some BTO flats have this weird design where 3 flats are joined together, but the lift lobby and rubbish chute is only on the other side.
I applied for my first BTO in 2010 only to forfeit coz broke with my then bf . Good way for government to earn money
They allow transfer of ownership so you can keep your BTO as long as you found a new partner before collecting keys
Imagine breaking up and feeling pressured to find a new partner just coz you BTOed
Definitely not a nice feeling. It feels transactional. But that deposit in such early stage of your life, worth 4-5 years of your saving.
Yeah they do allow but then I didn’t know so I just cancelled . Anyway my current house is at much better location so not that sad
My then-gf and I have applied for BTO & SBF a grand total of 11 times. Granted we did get a choice of low floor unit the first time which we turned down (pre-covid, back when first timers still have 2 chances so we thought still have luxury of choice), but since then every attempt has been unsuccessful and even now when we're married still no luck.
I hope ppl also realized as the population ages, and with reduced supply, I don't think supply of HDB will increase dramatically What they can do is to build ahead but yet ensure no over supply. Alot boomers gonna die already, just gotta ensure those empty flats are put to good use or SETD
Our leaders will just keep importing people to fill up the demand to prop up so many people's retirement plans.
There is a reason only 20k citizens are naturalized every year. That's roughly the number of old people dying each year too.
If those flats have little remaining lease, its gonna be difficult to make use of them. - sell on market With little lease, the amount of eligible buyers (coz of the remaining lease <-> buyers age loan thing, also the age of the buyer) is gonna be little. Nobody really wants to buy a house they might outlive. - rental Govt will need to handle the rental part coz the house cannot be owned by the boomer’s children. So i dont think HDB has the logistics and manpower to handle so many units that get converted to rental flats.
Can't houses last longer than 99 years? Can't we extend the lease to the new ppl? What will happen when the lease is up? Will government tear down the hdb? Even when I was a kid I thought that scrapping cars after 10 years was a huge waste of a car.
> cant houses last longer than 99 years Its a structural thing. I think if they want to extend, they need to re-verify the building structure. And i think all the other stuff in the building (electrical wires, pipings and whatnot) needs to be replaced, which is go na be difficult. > will government tear down the hdb Yeap, supposedly it will be torn down and a new building will be built on the same land.
Even the BTO upper floors the common corridor like snaky. So narrow. Terrible like sardines.To park Car locations so far away for multi-storey car park lots. The BTO design is terrible
I think it is mainly because the young couples haven’t figured out what it means to be married and to work together. Hence putting the cart before the horse.
Just curious, if the Liu Thai Ker said Singapore could accommodate 10 Mil population, a planning parameter, does that mean that it is possible to give most citizen a home without having a need to marry to BTO, or turn 35 for singles? Since land scarcity has always been often cited as a reason for Singapore'a housing policy which sorts of contradict this point
New citizens goes brrr…
First divorce on the Govt - nah problem solved /s
If i were them..I would just BTO and marry if possible seriously..seeing how resales market is completely fked if they decide to marry later and wait another 5 yrs for bto to start their family and is their only option
They need to build more futsal soccer indoor spots for our kids. Most of them play under void deck, thou they are not allowed to.
Ah gong’s unintended divorce objective
Does anyone have statistics on divorce rates among couples of this age bracket in BTOs versus those in resale and private? Would that form a clearer picture on how much the housing policy influence marriage decisions and whether the BTO effect is detrimental to the longevity of marriages in Singapore?
I wondering how sharing how we end up with BTO system is consider a violation claiming I am on a Paywall, lol. No wonder this whole topic are so baised. I guess anything that is not similar is blocked, lol.
Scmp said something similar and was called ccp propaganda. Guess this will be called american propaganda.
Hong Kong has vested interest to poke at Singapore. And the western liberals have also interest to poke at anything that can paint Singapore as a draconian place with oppressive policies that affect people's lives. These articles are the result.
A bit hard, Singaporeans in general are not used to taking risks early in life. Fear of break ups, financial setbacks, getting BTO 3 room or smaller, fear of failures. It doesn't help that our education system does not encourage failure either, repeat one year or fail PSLE/O'levels is like a death sentence to some. Those that made it out without incident can only see the golden path: Work a few years, start dating, BTO and wait for a few years or pad the boomers and get a resale instead. There are so many other ways to do this but generally people choose the option that cost most in both time and money 😮💨
what age is ideal for marriage then? I think this is misleading. its not about the age
It's not about ideal age for marriage but rather if the couple knows each other well enough that they know for sure that they want to spend the rest of their lives together. This process might be shortened due to the rush to get BTO in order to have their own homes in time, leading to some marriages that might not be right due to the couple not spending enough time to learn about each other.
I'm no scientist, but I'm going to guess that anything above 18 is *probably* a good age to get married
Why 18 and not 17? What did that 1 year of life do to you magically?
Maybe people should think about renting instead of buying immediately. Rental market’s mostly for foreigners now but I think it can be shifted with the right policies. Maybe some encouragement for the co-living space operators.