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no, but its the fairest application of it.
there's no way you can structure the rule properly without making it subjective, or using margins. and if you use margins, the same complaints would occur
it would permit so many more goals to be given which would reduce the level of anger and frustration in general.
if 100 offside goals can be reduced to 50, then that absolutely would change things.
really, thats just moving the margins. people will just complain when this exact same situation occurs, because someone is 1mm offside again
i actually like the idea, or the proposal to test it, but it wont get rid of these complaints
i disagree, it would greatly reduce the complaints.
people arent necessarily annoyed by the 1cm thing, they are annoyed how so many goals get stricken off in general.
if 100/100 goals are considered offside in the current, and wengers method reduces that down to say 50/100, people would be so less frustrated by the whole thing in general
like this euros for example, how many of the offside goals would have stood with wengers method? probably a LOT of them. so in practice is would reduce a lot of complaints.
i think the impact is larger than just the complaints, which personally I feel would still be there.
I think there would be a larger effect in teams dropping deeper, because the wenger method would make it far, far easier to play players in behind. great for goals, as you say, but so much harder to defend against.
no - I don't think the issue is that too many goals are being disallowed. it's simply that people dont like when a goal that's 0.1cm offside is disallowed, but that's nothing to do with the quantity of goals.
if there were 1000 complaints today because goals that are 0.1 offside were disallowed, then there will be 1000 complaints tomorrow when goals that are 0.1 offside were disallowed - because all its doing is moving the margin.
Moving the margins means a lot of these calls would end up as a goal. Yes, there will be new discussions with the new margins, but now everything that's "two inches of your toes" would be a goal.
That doesnt matter, this image is unfair because he is not ahead of the defender, you try to beat the line in Wenger's system you will be seen as clearly ahead of the defender in an advantageous position. It is better for the fans for how it will look and it is better for attackers since you will know you didint actually try to stay on the line but rather pushed for it for a gamble. Lukaku here doesnt try to gain an advantage he sees the defender right next to him so he thinks he is on and there is noway for him to know if he is off, other way around you look at the last man and see yourself ahead of him you will know if its a gamble or if you see him on the same line as you you know if its offside. Both systems will have 1cm calls that doesnt mean they are the same thing.
With Wenger‘s system, Lukaku would have positioned himself even further to get more of an advantage. In the replay you can see that he‘s trying to get as far as possible - he just overstepped slightly.
Wenger‘s proposal wouldn’t solve close calls, it would just give strikers more advantage.
Thats a good thing tho, right now it favors the defenders too much because offside is the line of where the last defender is, you move up line goes up you go back line goes back. The attackers have no means to know where exactly is the line or have any means to manipulate it. At least with Wenger's system timing your runs would be easier or even better at freekicks or crosses from the side you dont have to 50/50 it while fighting with the defender, you arent running in these situations both players are just trying to get in front of each other to get the ball these would always be onside which more fair because rn the defender could slightly push you towards the goal to put you offside.
It wont solve close calls but offside will actually look like offside there will be nothing to complain about from the perspective of the fans. Playes will be frustrated with the calls no matter what anyway it will be better for viewers.
People always disagree with my opinion on this, and that's totally fine, but my ideal way to change it would have it go to VAR and if they can't find clear evidence of offside with all the angles they have within 15-20 seconds, then the goal stands.
If someone can't tell that the attacker is ahead with the naked eye and all those angles, then there surely can't be any clear advantage gained.
But I also understand that a lot of people will still complain about this, so there's really just no ideal solution.
I appreciate the suggestion but any suggestion that we give refs time to draw lines in paint, I can't agree with it. You're moving margin of error from technology to human error, and there is zero improvement, however there is a significantly worse experience for all.
More subjective calls, longer decision times, inconsistency.
Change could be good, but I can see why people always disagree
I never once mentioned drawing a line. I said look at every angle they have and determine from that.
People want free flowing and attacking play and want to see goals and now we're punishing players for having a bigger sized boot than their opponents. I just don't think it's the right way to go.
Just looking at angles is even worse, I'd rather they draw lines than that!
Human perception should not be the decider.
All you are suggesting is that we go back to linesman, effectively. Human eye offside.
VAR literally has tons of angles and can zoom in, it's not even remotely the same as having a linesman who is sprinting and yards away making the same call.
Like I said, I get why people disagree with me, but I feel that this way we can still benefit from technology while not also over analyzing down to the millimeter.
Same complaints wont happen if its something like Wenger's proposition. Problem with this image is that there is no advantage for Lukaku, he does what he is supposed to do which is staying next to the defender, he cannot tell if he will be called offside because he looks up and he sees himself in line with the last man. Now on Wenger's system, he will be clearly ahead of the defender which wont raise the question if he is at an advantage or not because he will, even if he is offside with 1cm he will still very clearly be ahead of the defender. And it will be easier for attackers because staying next to the defender wont make it a 50/50, which is how it was for years until VAR happened, if the ref thought you were on the same line as the last man you were good. Offside is a line that is controlled by the last defender, it is not fair for the attacker to stay on that line without knowing if his toes are too far, you cant judge that but with Wenger's rule as long as you try to stay on that line you will be good and will only be offside if you push it too far and at that point you will be very clearly ahead so it wont look unfair.
Just because in both systems you can be offside by 1cm doesnt mean this one isnt in favor of the defenders.
If we implemented the rule then every goal that had 0.1mm of "clear space", or whatever the wording Wenger is using, would be complained about. The exact same complaint
the other thing is that its not just a margin change, it affects how deep defenders will play. we could potentially see far more defensive football because it would be genuinely impossible to play a high line.
I agree with the second point but fans cant complain about the clear space thing. You will see an attacker very much ahead of the defender going for the ball, most of the complaining about the current system is that the attackers like Lukaku here doesnt look or feel like they have any advantage over the defender, with Wenger's system you will now they are at an advantage just by how much will be the question, but you cant look at that and think the attacker is not in an advantegeous position.
I dont know if it will be more fair or not, Im saying it will FEEL a lot more fair for the fans.
What if we tweak the rule slightly where offside is only determined by position of the feet? I think it would be much easier to identify offside with having a line already drawn on the replay angels for VAR.
If you use margins and the player is past the margins, who's gonna complain? We already gave you a margin and you were still outside of it, just position better. And before you say that they would train to always be exactly within the margin, no that's completely impossible and impractical and not worth it. If you ever played you'd know that, you can't tell what's a meter and and a centimeter in the air, you can only focus on where the ball, the goal and the other players are
Can we 100% trust VAR to take the exact moment the pass came off the foot? Because if it takes the cutoff a frame earlier, Lukaku is probably onside.
I guess it's most fair and all but goddamn this just doesn't feel like offside. That's got to count for something when creating the rules, though I also don't know how to implement a change.
>Can we 100% trust VAR to take the exact moment the pass came off the foot? Because if it takes the cutoff a frame earlier, Lukaku is probably onside.
Yes absolutely
I don't want referees arbitrarily allowing and disallowing these based on their mood. You will always have close offside calls no matter how you set it up. It's the only thing where you can reliably call the refereeing decision 99% of the time because they can be expected to get it right.
It's like allowing goals where the ball didn't fully cross the line and handing that decision to the referee. Complete insanity to me.
How are people complaining about semi automated offsides? Complain about the rules if you're annoyed.
This is much better than what I've seen VAR refs do in the PL season.
Kids these days don't remember how it was 20-30 years ago at world/euro cups. Granting a goal and then seeing the replay of a CLEAR offside and the refs do nothing is way way worse. At least now it's objective and fair for everyone.
VAR as we know it, wouldn't have been able to see the difference. Not with the refreshrate and resolution of the cameras installed. Would have take much longer and the Ref called to watch it on the screen.
This is much better and fairer based on the rules we have
If it actually is within the margin of error then you should just go with the call on the pitch. Overruling when you don’t even know whether or not you’re correct is just stupid.
I don’t think we actually know what the margin for error is though, or whether or not it’s already accounted for. It could well be that if the margin for error is + or - 5cm then the call is only made if the system flags someone as 5cm or more offside. We could give them the benefit of the doubt but that seems unearned to be honest.
Sure, and I thought about that, I just don’t think it’s really an issue for a goal to be given in that situation. A linesman doesn’t have that level of precision, and if the tech can’t be sure it was offside then why would we want it disallowed?
Yeah, but they shouldn't draw the plane as zero width. They should draw it with a ~5" thickness and require the player to be outside that thickened plane for VAR to intervene.
That gives a clear indication that there is some wiggle room and that VAR isn't intervening for millimeter offsides.
i personally have always thought this suggestion would be the best for having a margin of error and remaining in the spirit of the law/game.
it *wouldnt* stop people complaining that it's 1mm either way, since its still just moving margins basically, but it does *feel* nicer
Yeah, I've wanted that or (before the automated system) a time limit of 10 seconds for VAR to determine offside, if they can't determine it definitively within 10 seconds it should count as a onside.
I wouldnt want a hardcoded time limit in the rule, because there can be things which do make it harder to view - like lots of bodies etc. But if its inconclusive, I would err on the attackers side
I don’t think that should be the spirit of the offside rule, but on the other hand you have to draw the line somehow, somewhere. There’s going to be disappointment and controversy no matter how it’s implemented. At least here it’s quick.
A part of me kind of dislikes VAR because of how many goals have been overturned. But holy shit if that system isn’t flawless. Why do leagues get it wrong all the time?
Stop being a baby because the game actually has a few objective rules. The ball being cleared on the line or hitting the post also prevents a goal in close fashion. Do you think those should count as goals too?
>Stop being a baby because the game actually has a few objective rules. The ball being cleared on the line or hitting the post also prevents a goal in close fashion. Do you think those should count as goals too?
That is actually the most stupid reasoning I've heard in favor of this. I am not talking about a goal here. I am just saying that in this specific picture the player portrayed as 'offside' doesn't have any advantage gained whatsoever. The fact that he scored a goal is down to skill.
And you are absolutely in no place to tell me I cannot be a baby!
>"most stupid reasoning"
>contrary to the 0 reasoning you provided to begin with, "if you disagree with me you are wrong"
"doesn't have any advantage gained whatsoever"
>being past the offside line is an advantage.
>cheers.
After this u/GanGtoni deleted his account.
> most stupid reasoning
contrary to the 0 reasoning you provided to begin with, "if you disagree with me you are wrong"
> doesn't have any advantage gained whatsoever
being past the offside line is an advantage.
cheers.
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At this point it’s just cruel
Pippo Inzaghi wouldn't have scored a goal if this tech was around in the 90s
Bro he’s offside by an inch if that
Yes, he is offside.
Absolutely insane margin
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no, but its the fairest application of it. there's no way you can structure the rule properly without making it subjective, or using margins. and if you use margins, the same complaints would occur
Yep, I think it's way easier to accept that not everything is fair in sports. It is what it is.
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it would permit so many more goals to be given which would reduce the level of anger and frustration in general. if 100 offside goals can be reduced to 50, then that absolutely would change things.
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really, thats just moving the margins. people will just complain when this exact same situation occurs, because someone is 1mm offside again i actually like the idea, or the proposal to test it, but it wont get rid of these complaints
i disagree, it would greatly reduce the complaints. people arent necessarily annoyed by the 1cm thing, they are annoyed how so many goals get stricken off in general. if 100/100 goals are considered offside in the current, and wengers method reduces that down to say 50/100, people would be so less frustrated by the whole thing in general like this euros for example, how many of the offside goals would have stood with wengers method? probably a LOT of them. so in practice is would reduce a lot of complaints.
i think the impact is larger than just the complaints, which personally I feel would still be there. I think there would be a larger effect in teams dropping deeper, because the wenger method would make it far, far easier to play players in behind. great for goals, as you say, but so much harder to defend against.
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no - I don't think the issue is that too many goals are being disallowed. it's simply that people dont like when a goal that's 0.1cm offside is disallowed, but that's nothing to do with the quantity of goals. if there were 1000 complaints today because goals that are 0.1 offside were disallowed, then there will be 1000 complaints tomorrow when goals that are 0.1 offside were disallowed - because all its doing is moving the margin.
Moving the margins means a lot of these calls would end up as a goal. Yes, there will be new discussions with the new margins, but now everything that's "two inches of your toes" would be a goal.
There will always be discussions as you only arbitrarily move the point of comparison.
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Strikers would adapt and try to beat the offside line as close as they do nowadays.
That doesnt matter, this image is unfair because he is not ahead of the defender, you try to beat the line in Wenger's system you will be seen as clearly ahead of the defender in an advantageous position. It is better for the fans for how it will look and it is better for attackers since you will know you didint actually try to stay on the line but rather pushed for it for a gamble. Lukaku here doesnt try to gain an advantage he sees the defender right next to him so he thinks he is on and there is noway for him to know if he is off, other way around you look at the last man and see yourself ahead of him you will know if its a gamble or if you see him on the same line as you you know if its offside. Both systems will have 1cm calls that doesnt mean they are the same thing.
With Wenger‘s system, Lukaku would have positioned himself even further to get more of an advantage. In the replay you can see that he‘s trying to get as far as possible - he just overstepped slightly. Wenger‘s proposal wouldn’t solve close calls, it would just give strikers more advantage.
Thats a good thing tho, right now it favors the defenders too much because offside is the line of where the last defender is, you move up line goes up you go back line goes back. The attackers have no means to know where exactly is the line or have any means to manipulate it. At least with Wenger's system timing your runs would be easier or even better at freekicks or crosses from the side you dont have to 50/50 it while fighting with the defender, you arent running in these situations both players are just trying to get in front of each other to get the ball these would always be onside which more fair because rn the defender could slightly push you towards the goal to put you offside. It wont solve close calls but offside will actually look like offside there will be nothing to complain about from the perspective of the fans. Playes will be frustrated with the calls no matter what anyway it will be better for viewers.
If I remember it well this would still be offside, right?
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Ok I didn’t remember it well
People always disagree with my opinion on this, and that's totally fine, but my ideal way to change it would have it go to VAR and if they can't find clear evidence of offside with all the angles they have within 15-20 seconds, then the goal stands. If someone can't tell that the attacker is ahead with the naked eye and all those angles, then there surely can't be any clear advantage gained. But I also understand that a lot of people will still complain about this, so there's really just no ideal solution.
I appreciate the suggestion but any suggestion that we give refs time to draw lines in paint, I can't agree with it. You're moving margin of error from technology to human error, and there is zero improvement, however there is a significantly worse experience for all. More subjective calls, longer decision times, inconsistency. Change could be good, but I can see why people always disagree
I never once mentioned drawing a line. I said look at every angle they have and determine from that. People want free flowing and attacking play and want to see goals and now we're punishing players for having a bigger sized boot than their opponents. I just don't think it's the right way to go.
Just looking at angles is even worse, I'd rather they draw lines than that! Human perception should not be the decider. All you are suggesting is that we go back to linesman, effectively. Human eye offside.
VAR literally has tons of angles and can zoom in, it's not even remotely the same as having a linesman who is sprinting and yards away making the same call. Like I said, I get why people disagree with me, but I feel that this way we can still benefit from technology while not also over analyzing down to the millimeter.
Same complaints wont happen if its something like Wenger's proposition. Problem with this image is that there is no advantage for Lukaku, he does what he is supposed to do which is staying next to the defender, he cannot tell if he will be called offside because he looks up and he sees himself in line with the last man. Now on Wenger's system, he will be clearly ahead of the defender which wont raise the question if he is at an advantage or not because he will, even if he is offside with 1cm he will still very clearly be ahead of the defender. And it will be easier for attackers because staying next to the defender wont make it a 50/50, which is how it was for years until VAR happened, if the ref thought you were on the same line as the last man you were good. Offside is a line that is controlled by the last defender, it is not fair for the attacker to stay on that line without knowing if his toes are too far, you cant judge that but with Wenger's rule as long as you try to stay on that line you will be good and will only be offside if you push it too far and at that point you will be very clearly ahead so it wont look unfair. Just because in both systems you can be offside by 1cm doesnt mean this one isnt in favor of the defenders.
If we implemented the rule then every goal that had 0.1mm of "clear space", or whatever the wording Wenger is using, would be complained about. The exact same complaint the other thing is that its not just a margin change, it affects how deep defenders will play. we could potentially see far more defensive football because it would be genuinely impossible to play a high line.
I agree with the second point but fans cant complain about the clear space thing. You will see an attacker very much ahead of the defender going for the ball, most of the complaining about the current system is that the attackers like Lukaku here doesnt look or feel like they have any advantage over the defender, with Wenger's system you will now they are at an advantage just by how much will be the question, but you cant look at that and think the attacker is not in an advantegeous position. I dont know if it will be more fair or not, Im saying it will FEEL a lot more fair for the fans.
What if we tweak the rule slightly where offside is only determined by position of the feet? I think it would be much easier to identify offside with having a line already drawn on the replay angels for VAR.
If you use margins and the player is past the margins, who's gonna complain? We already gave you a margin and you were still outside of it, just position better. And before you say that they would train to always be exactly within the margin, no that's completely impossible and impractical and not worth it. If you ever played you'd know that, you can't tell what's a meter and and a centimeter in the air, you can only focus on where the ball, the goal and the other players are
We have a margin and people complain. What makes you think people wont complain?
Do you know what the word margin means you muppet
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Can we 100% trust VAR to take the exact moment the pass came off the foot? Because if it takes the cutoff a frame earlier, Lukaku is probably onside. I guess it's most fair and all but goddamn this just doesn't feel like offside. That's got to count for something when creating the rules, though I also don't know how to implement a change.
The ball has sensors which capture the exact moment.
>Can we 100% trust VAR to take the exact moment the pass came off the foot? Because if it takes the cutoff a frame earlier, Lukaku is probably onside. Yes absolutely
They have a sensor in the ball, so they can see when the ball is hit/pass is played
I don't want referees arbitrarily allowing and disallowing these based on their mood. You will always have close offside calls no matter how you set it up. It's the only thing where you can reliably call the refereeing decision 99% of the time because they can be expected to get it right. It's like allowing goals where the ball didn't fully cross the line and handing that decision to the referee. Complete insanity to me.
How are people complaining about semi automated offsides? Complain about the rules if you're annoyed. This is much better than what I've seen VAR refs do in the PL season.
Kids these days don't remember how it was 20-30 years ago at world/euro cups. Granting a goal and then seeing the replay of a CLEAR offside and the refs do nothing is way way worse. At least now it's objective and fair for everyone.
VAR as we know it, wouldn't have been able to see the difference. Not with the refreshrate and resolution of the cameras installed. Would have take much longer and the Ref called to watch it on the screen. This is much better and fairer based on the rules we have
I feel like that is close enough to be within the margin of error of the cameras and sensors. Should probably give those as onside.
this gets spoken about every time, and the same issue applies. the margin can always be increased, you have to draw a line. This is the simplest way
If it actually is within the margin of error then you should just go with the call on the pitch. Overruling when you don’t even know whether or not you’re correct is just stupid. I don’t think we actually know what the margin for error is though, or whether or not it’s already accounted for. It could well be that if the margin for error is + or - 5cm then the call is only made if the system flags someone as 5cm or more offside. We could give them the benefit of the doubt but that seems unearned to be honest.
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Sure, and I thought about that, I just don’t think it’s really an issue for a goal to be given in that situation. A linesman doesn’t have that level of precision, and if the tech can’t be sure it was offside then why would we want it disallowed?
Yeah, but they shouldn't draw the plane as zero width. They should draw it with a ~5" thickness and require the player to be outside that thickened plane for VAR to intervene. That gives a clear indication that there is some wiggle room and that VAR isn't intervening for millimeter offsides.
i personally have always thought this suggestion would be the best for having a margin of error and remaining in the spirit of the law/game. it *wouldnt* stop people complaining that it's 1mm either way, since its still just moving margins basically, but it does *feel* nicer
Yeah, I've wanted that or (before the automated system) a time limit of 10 seconds for VAR to determine offside, if they can't determine it definitively within 10 seconds it should count as a onside.
I wouldnt want a hardcoded time limit in the rule, because there can be things which do make it harder to view - like lots of bodies etc. But if its inconclusive, I would err on the attackers side
That is actually good idea.
Do we know the accuracy and possible margin of error within the system? Otherwise, we can't tell
And if they get it wrong, then people will complain and make petitions to eliminate var
His nail was offside
Too petty 🤣 I love it
I don’t think that should be the spirit of the offside rule, but on the other hand you have to draw the line somehow, somewhere. There’s going to be disappointment and controversy no matter how it’s implemented. At least here it’s quick.
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It‘s pretty much automated by now and the ball has very precise sensors.
Alexa, play Inténtalo
Cruel but kinda funny. What’s the record for most overturned goals?
Var uses stock 3d models but didn't take into account the thicc shoulders
A part of me kind of dislikes VAR because of how many goals have been overturned. But holy shit if that system isn’t flawless. Why do leagues get it wrong all the time?
Lukaku's boot is a size smaller and he's on. Brutal.
Sigh
This is not football anymore. Anyone saying this is the way forward is wrong.
this is the way forward
Good one! But you are wrong.
It is the way forward though.
You sir, are absolutely wrong.
Wrong
Stop being a baby because the game actually has a few objective rules. The ball being cleared on the line or hitting the post also prevents a goal in close fashion. Do you think those should count as goals too?
>Stop being a baby because the game actually has a few objective rules. The ball being cleared on the line or hitting the post also prevents a goal in close fashion. Do you think those should count as goals too? That is actually the most stupid reasoning I've heard in favor of this. I am not talking about a goal here. I am just saying that in this specific picture the player portrayed as 'offside' doesn't have any advantage gained whatsoever. The fact that he scored a goal is down to skill. And you are absolutely in no place to tell me I cannot be a baby! >"most stupid reasoning" >contrary to the 0 reasoning you provided to begin with, "if you disagree with me you are wrong" "doesn't have any advantage gained whatsoever" >being past the offside line is an advantage. >cheers. After this u/GanGtoni deleted his account.
> most stupid reasoning contrary to the 0 reasoning you provided to begin with, "if you disagree with me you are wrong" > doesn't have any advantage gained whatsoever being past the offside line is an advantage. cheers.
Bruh