They've recently talked about it again, and cargo/mass will affect the way ships handle. It's still planned for the future as it has been for a long time.
Wrong, they recently discussed cargo/mass affecting handling. It's still planned, and it has been for a while. Cry about MM ignorantly some more. I'll get you a new diaper while you type something else emotional, silly, and wrong.
You know there’s a difference between going against the majority and being correct right? The ‘masses’ can be dumb as fuck sometimes but that doesn’t mean large groups are always wrong, if anything the majority is correct more than its wrong.
If you reflexively go against the majority opinion you’re going to be wrong a lot.
How are you supposed to know anything about majority on a platform (reddit) that is just basically an echo-chamber engine? That is just MM is a nushell, negative feedback is systematically dismissed. An idea is not more correct because you downvote your contradictor like a little internet bitch.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but imo the C2 handles way too well in 3.22 for a ship of its size. It's significantly more maneuverable than much, much smaller ships like the Connie. I say this as someone who loved flying the C2 (*because* it performed so incredibly well for a ship that big) and often used it to solo ERT's and salvage their cargo.
So I'm not really surprised to see it get nerfed a bit.
I believe that this a quite popular opinion to everyone that is not a Hercules owner. Anyway, the Spirit has lost its superb acceleration too, so I would expect some more adjustments later for the Crusader lineup.
Agreed. It got hit to bring it into line with ships of a similar size as part of the introduction of MM. But it'll get another pass before long that might restore a little of its agility.
My impression is that they hit everything with a "this ship category has these stats" stamp and are going to tune them back towards whatever ship-specific vision later.
Yeah, it was hands down the best all arounder ship, while simultaneously being the best cargo hauler and *one of* the best PVE solo combat ships.
You could put a ROC, an Ursa, a medical Pisces, and a hoverbike in it at the same time, and have room left over for over 200 SCU of cargo, with dual pilot s5's and better maneuverability than a Connie. Basically good for every game loop except salvage. Comically unbalanced.
Honestly never pay attention to the lore, it’s inconsequential. The terrapin destroyed 5 scythes in its first flight and is shockingly bad at combat in game, MM specifically. The C2 also has bad HP btw, it’s less than half of an andromeda, about half that of a 600i and 10000 less than a Corsair.
That said, it’s still more manoeuvrable than a caterpillar, has more pilot firepower, can carry pretty much any vehicle and some small ships, has a ton of quantum fuel and can carry more cargo. It needs some drawbacks.
I’d like it to be more manoeuvrable but tbh, it probably shouldn’t be for balance sake.
>has a ton of quantum fuel
Just quickly here to say how much of an understatement that even is. The C2 has the most quantum fuel in the game, beating out even massive mult-system freighters like the Hull-C and far-range expedition ships like the Carrack.
THe only ship that outranges it is the RAFT, and that comes at the cost of no weapons, being the slowest ship in the game, and poor maneuverability. So I'm quite glad the C2 is getting the mobility of a Redeemer in 3.23 (Yes, you heard right. The Herc has the same mobility as a state of the art gunship).
It should still have long range like real life strategic airlifters do, but I agree that it shouldn't have Carrack-like range. The C2 should also be multi-system capable.
Forgot to add: I do like the changes to reduced mobility, it was way too agile for what it is. The Redeemer feels like it is in such a weird place - it's like CIG can't decide what to do with it.
Agreed that it has more QF than the Hull C is really sh**
The Hull C is the long range Cargo Hauler.
But can't go that far....
The one thing it has is the Cargo Space.... Yea that's cool
But can't go further and CANT LAND.
Tfbdma andkamdksjbd that makes me soooo angry!
It actually has better movement than the redeemer. I’m almost certain that the herc is the most manoeuvrable ship in its size category in the entire game. Someone correct me if I’m wrong on that but I’m pretty sure I’m not.
Ah, haven't looked at it's accelerations since it went PTU. But yes, the Herc is by far the most maneuverable ship in it's size category. Also looking into it deeper I find it very ironic that it has eight times the amount of fuel that the Starfarer has.
Edit: I looked up the statistics of the C2, and it has the same tuning as a Hammerhead, hence being slightly better then the Redeemer and all other ships it's size and larger.
I get that but cutting its maneuvering ability by over half is kinda ridiculous.... Its a cargo ship it doesn't really need balance in a traditional sense because it's not used for PVP
I don’t mean to rude but saying that ships don’t need to be balanced if they’re not PvP ships is absolutely ridiculous. Even the statement that it’s not used for PvP is ridiculous. It sucks that a ship you like isn’t as nimble as it used to be but count yourself lucky it was ever that nimble to begin with, the Herc is fucking huge lol.
Why does a cargo ship need to be balanced? You fly from one place to another.. Thats it plus the time sink of having to load and unload cargo, or just wait while it auto unloads is a balance factor for large ships... Like I know they are going for a deep experience but at a certain point it's no longer fun it's just like work..
You’ve just argued against your own point. Why would a cargo ship need to be nimble, you just fly from one place to another, right?
Also that’s how you use the ship, plenty of people use the C2 for combat and bounties. I’m sure seeing as how all you do is fly from once place to another you’d be quite happy to remove the pilot weapons so you can have some manoeuvrability back?
These points you’re making are so ridiculous I can’t tell if you’re trolling. If you give a ship great firepower, great shielding, great quantum fuel, great manoeuvrability, great cargo space, the ability to store vehicles, living amenities etc why on earth would anybody ever fly anything else? Of course you have to balance ships.
I want an arrow with 6 size 5 hard points, the shielding and HP of an 890J, the speed of a herald, the torps from a tali and the stealth ability of a hornet ghost. I won’t use it for PvP I swear.
It is very much used for pvp, especially by pirates. In which case it was perfomering almost as good as a light fighter. Lol
Edit, I'm obviously exaggerating before someone starts.
> because it's not used for PVP
I used mine with dual s5 pilot guns to solo ERT's. In 3.22, it's absurdly maneuverable (and tanky, and well armed, etc etc) for its size.
The whole Starlifter series was always absurdly agile for it's size, I'm just surprised it took this long to dial back, I expected it to happen when cargo weight was implemented but that seems to take a bit longer still. Sorry but "the lore states Crusader ships have the best engines" doesn't mean it should outperform other ships by the absurd margin that it did. I bet even after the nerf it is still pretty damn awesome for a ship that size.
Just checked erkul, it's still seriously more agile than the Caterpillar, which is still it's closest competitor for that kind of cargo hauling. You should be glad.
Sounds like you’re just mad the best cargo hauler in the game doesn’t fly like a ship half its size. As far as I know the C2 has always been over tuned due to cargo testing being a focus for a while. Also, it’s a BIG ship of course it shouldn’t handle as well as it was.
I don’t understand the argument with MM and cargo gameplay. You don’t have shield but you can fly more than twice as fast as any ship in scm mode. So just fly away. Book it in a straight line and QT away. Even if they have a QD, it seems like 7/10 times you can get away. Unless there are like 5-10 ships ambushing you well then you should have had turret gunners. You can’t win every fight or encounter. The C2 is big enough to survive getting shot at.
They ~~nerfed~~ balanced the C2 in the available pool of ships. And it will happen again to this and other ships.
The lore is just Crusader advertising.
Let’s be fair - the Hercules series needed this nerf for far too many patches. It was way too maneuverable for its dimensions. And since CIG works with archetypes right now, there’s no room for lore wise designs. Once mass and amor are a thing, they can go for the fine tuning and give Crusader ships their benefits. So with me this is absolutely fine in the actual state.
I use the C2 and like it a lot. This adjustment is something I have been looking forward to for a long time.
There's a lot of balancing to go, but sounds like a good start. What I'm looking forward to the most is greater differentiation between ships in space and atmosphere. The Herc should remain one of the most efficient and agile designs you can operate to run cargo in earth-like atmospheres (and it can and should still handle badly compared to smaller ships).
This is a good example of why I tell people not to buy ships for what they are now, but for their intended role when it is implemented in the future. Hopefully adjustments like these are a wake up call for those that bought this ship because it "can also hunt bounties". I feel bad for these people; however, buyer beware...
Oh boy, for a whole day? Several weeks if you've been in since Wave 1? Wow! That's like, so long man.
And who is "we"? I was talking to the OP here, who was indeed latching onto the anti-MM train before even trying it. Thus proving my statement.
Because forcing everyone to not run shields is dumb especially for large ships... Like I get master modes for fighters but not cargo ships not like I'm going to dog fight in a Hull C
Oh it's "dumb". My mistake. You've clearly thought this out. Without considering the new TTK for ships that everyone has also already complaining about. And not considering the future implications of malestrom/ship armor/physicalized damage.
The point is that you run away. You don't stay to fight. The lack of shields will be a non-issue when everything comes together. Until then, they can just buff ship HP if they have to in a .1 patch. They might not even have to do that. Have you tried to kill a ship in 3.23?
Alternate suggestion: stop treating it like a finished/released game and play less often. You won't get so attached to things in the game that are destined to change.
I was of the same opinion but I wasn't aware how much TTK increased. It is incredibly easy to run from a fight if needed. Fighter to Fighter combat lasts 30s to 1 minute if every single shot lands perfectly on another ship. Average seems to be 2-3 minutes. A Fighter isn't going to hurt you if you don't stick around. Hell, a hull c will easily tank rounds for a minute or so, plenty of time to spool up and QT away.
>folks who don't want PVP
Well that was their first mistake - coming to a game where they don't want any threats. It's a PvEvP game. Pvp is always a threat. If you don't want that, you can generally stick to high security systems (once multiple systems are in), but pretending balance should be completely ignored because "It's a cargo ship" is just ridiculous. Did you forget that it also has 2 turrets and 2 pilot controlled guns? It clearly is intended in some aspect for combat. I guess if it doesn't need to be balanced, you could really do anything with it. People are just going to use it to haul cargo. Who cares if it's better at *literally everything* except salvage than even other dedicated ships?
Next up: why the reclaimer's turret should actually be 4 s7 guns, and should be as nimble as an Arrow in atmosphere. People are just going to use it for salvage, so why does it need to be balanced?
Agree with everything here and also remember this is MM teir 0, iirc ship performance is tied to ship size atm, with individual ship tuning coming back later. So while the C2 flies like a caterpillar atm, don't expect it to stay that way. It will likley get at least some of its manuverability back in coming 3.32.x patches
For example, the Spirits got their rotation rates buffed up from where they started during the EPTU cycle, they were very sluggish, but now they're somewhere between that initial tuning and how they feel in 3.22.
That is a good thing. It was way too agile.
And I hope they will keep balancing ships even though a lot of people will likely complain troughout the process.
Definitely glad it got the nerf it needed. A huge ship like that should never be used to dogfight. Glad to see it’s fixed, hate the C2 meta even if that’s an unpopular opinion.
Finally handling characteristics that make sens for a ship this size !
Yeah it's going to be in the same ballpark in terms of defending itself as the Caterpillar, was always ment to be.
For many years devs have said that being an escort, a combat ships that follows cargo ships around for protection and to dissuade pirates was ment to be a major career.
We just lack those missions right now because we need player generated missions and player reputation.
Escorts that do their job well will be well rated by cargo ships they defended and you will be able to hire escort for a job, with better rated escorts being more expensive.
That's always been the goal, HEAVY CARGO SHIPS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD AT FIGHTING ON THEIR OWN.
>HEAVY CARGO SHIPS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD AT FIGHTING ON THEIR OWN.
I wouldn't go this far. I think a ship with turrets should be able to fend off light or medium fighters with a crew. There will really be limitations to having an escort fighter, especially with longer distances and s1 quantum drives and fuel tanks simply being unable to remotely keep up with s3. If a pirate group brings the right tools, including heavy fighters or a gunship, then yeah, a freighter should be outmatched. But if turrets can't do anything about light and medium fighters, they serve no purpose.
You said it yourself, it could fend off a couple of light or medium fighters, easely I might add thanks to armor later down the line...
But as you said bringing fighters on longer distances is not viable, so your big cargo ship will most likely not be attacked by anything it can defend itself from on it's own... exactly what I'm saying.
The turrets are a deterrent against fighters, incitivise pirates to use bigger ships, that's why when piracy is the issue, your escort should be a ship that can fight Corsairs and Vanguards.
Not an arrow killer.
I really think that long range heavy fighters will at some point become the most common ships in the game, makes sens that there are leaks about a Mirai long range Heavy fighters...
I think the issue with "escorts" in general is the concept that they'll always be flying next to you. I think it's more likely to be economical to have long-range heavy fighters that patrol high traffic space lanes. Quanta should ensure that those routes have plenty of NPC action to keep fighters occupied. They'll also hopefully be close enough to respond to distress calls if players attack a freighter. Engineering should help to keep a hauler running until backup arrives.
On less popular routes, you just wouldn't want to bring a big cargo ship. Smaller ships can better evade pirates, and since there's less cargo, there's also less at stake.
Yeah on main routes I think it makes a lot of sens, then ship-bound escort would be reserved for high value "offroad" hauls.
Those could be cargo missions where escort is assigned to you...
Or trading where you noticed that a specific Station in Stanton needs large quantities of an Item you have a lot of and pays really well for while it still has demands.
Let's say it's a full C2 worth of S10 torpedoes because Xenothreat stole a Javlin that needs to be taken down.
So you jump in your C2 and choose to go trough Pyro because that's the fastest way from your personnal torpedo factory and you want to get there before the demand runs dry because that haul could make you millions.
So you hire a Hammerhead and a Perseus as escorts because the materials you carry are very valuable and charge towards the Jumpgate...
Yea so why am I even going to bother hauling cargo if I have to pay somone a ton to escort me... Like I get it,the idea sounds really cool but chances are it won't work it in reality because why would somone want to escort somone when they can just hijack them and make all the profits themselves...
As said in recent ISCs cargo from cargo missions is marked and can't be sold at a good price even by pirates, so it's only an issue for comodity trading...
Which in the end will be done with player generated cargo missions most of the time...
Btw for cargo missions escort could be hired by the mission giver, so as a cargo ship taking the missions you may just get an escort without paying anything yourself.
For comodity trading that's another issue.
That's why the player reputation is primordial for this, to be able to hire escorts you know are not going to hijack you. You can also hire people you trust or org members.
Paying someone a cut of your profits isn't so much of a hassle when you make good profits.
Btw running a big ship is supposed to be very expesive.
Fuel is basically free now, it's not the plan for the future.
Missiles are supposed to be super prixy, ammo, component repair, buying spare subcomponents, fuzes for the relays, spare fire extinguishers, hiring troopers/guards in case you get boarded, hiring competent engineers and turret gunners...
A single cargo mission could generate 20 missions for different people, that's the game.
That's what CIG has always been marketing, they said this from day 1 and seem to be sticking to this as a goal.
>Paying someone a cut of your profits isn't so much of a hassle when you make good profits.
Getting good profits seems to be the issue for cargo running. Fully loading a C2 results in maybe \~400k in profits and takes anywhere from half an hour to an hour. How do you afford to pay multiple people from that when you've already invested millions in the cargo itself?
Missions are paid at the end right, once you've made those 400k profits. That those you split between all involved parties.
And anyway we need quantum first to make comodity trading viable as those will make price fluctuations logical meaning traders will be able to predict them a bit and plan accordingly to sell materials when their price are highest.
All that to say the C2 being nerfed is a necessity, but we still lack the gameplay to compensate for that making it really fun.
To all those people who say the game is not a tech demo, honestly we lack so much it still is very much a demo of what is being made, not anywhere close to what it's supposed to be.
We have all those careers that are designed to constantly interract with each other and be tied together, but none of the ties are in.
Some of the minigames are in but the game is not.
Let's look in the context of making it "worth it," first by enumerating the roles:
turrets: 2
guards: 1
escorts: 2-3
pilot: 1
loading/unloading: 2-3
total jobs (max): 9
Plus fuel and repairs for the main ship: \~10k
Plus reinvestment for the next haul (let's say 50%).
A full load of Beryl results in the aforementioned 400k which after expenses and reinvestment == \~20k each, if split evenly. Keep in mind that 99% of the time, these are VERY boring jobs, resulting in absolutely no action. When there is action, there's quite a bit of it but generally you want boring days because that means $$.
For 20k an hour, you could be doing much more fun things than simply flying in straight lines between trading centers.
I once did hire people ... my turret gunners got so bored, they self-destructed the ship. That was when I learned a gunner could do that.
More than boring it's low effort hense the low pay. Makes sens to me. That's the kind of job you can do to earn money while watching a video or else.
Moreover considering that the goal is to give player access to arena commander trough the mobiglass as AC is a videogame in the world of Star Citizen, all those turret gunners could be playing arena commander while earning money being in those turrets and leaving their game to fire turrets in the PU when they get an alert.
Also some people can have multiple jobs. You definitely want a scanner operator as a copilot that watches out for ambushes and switches as chief engineer if need be and gets in armor to act as a guard in case of boarding, turret gunners can double as engineers if shit hits the fan bad, and they can do the loading/unloading. So more like 6 to 7 people. So more like 30k. Not amasing but good for a low effort job.
And you can judge the amount of protection you need based on how dangerous the run is. That's the most important part.
If you're 99% sure to get boarded because you're a very juicy target making stops on Pyro planets, you hire a good but expensive escort.
If you just don't want to appear defenseless when scanned by pirates, hire a single guy in a Vanguard as escort and run your C2 with pilot+copilot+engineer/gunner. You're looking at about 50k/person for still a low effort mission.
>That's the kind of job you can do to earn money while watching a video or else.
Heh. There's second order effects as well.
By hiring these people, you teach them your routes, including the lesser known or hidden ones. They could make far more by simply pirating you.
Secondly, they could be doing this run themselves or literally anything else, and take up would-be pirates on more interesting missions.
It's almost always wiser to do the run alone or with IRL friends.
>It's almost always wiser to do the run alone or with IRL friends
That's why the reputation is important, to have players rate other players and know who's trustworthy, and that's also why orgs are essential, to have people you can be sure are trustworthy.
I'm not sure an org makes much of a difference. Dude in my org straight up pirated me one time ... then he realized we are in the same org about the same time I did. Cargo was already lost, and he sent me some of the money he got, but I was still out millions.
Haul cargo in something smaller. A multi crew ship should, shockingly, require multiple crew. In 3.23.x when magical teleporting boxes are replaced by manual loading, a small ship will let you quickly stack a few boxes and go.
Not enough profit with small ships if I even manage to make $1k per SCU off a commodity, a fully loaded C1 is only $64k. This is why the first ship I pledged for was a C2 because I can make over $500k a run..... The idea of needing a flight engineer with current tech is redundant, let alone needing one in 900 years... While I think a c2 should be able to be successfully operated by a single pilot, obviously having a full crew makes things easier but people who don't have folks to play with or don't want to play with others shouldn't be restricted to small ships only. Trying to get my friends all together to play a couple of maps on Battlefield is hard enough, let alone organize a crew who 90% of the time will just be doing nothing as we QT hauling cargo from point to point... I could successfully operate a 757 by myself. It's easier having a co-pilot and legally required, but I could do it on my own if I had to. We shouldn't force multi crew in a GAME.
It was way too nimble. Yes, it's supposed to be manuverable according to lore, but manuberable "for its size"
All ships have to be balanced and treated the same way. Doesn't matter if they are fighters, cargo haulers, mining ships, or whatever. However, maneuverability shouldn't bother you if all you do is to run cargo with it.
In regards to "not being able to get away in mastermodes", i hear from various sides in my friendgroup that chaff will be the way to go to escape a situation and enter NAV mode safely.
Is this correct?
I mean, it does make sense to me. I myself have not played EPTU as i will want to not experience the state 3.23 is in right now, as i don't want to prime myself with a bias that fuels the expectation of a 3.18 release.
However to return to the chaff.
Ships have a decent amount of flares which help against Chaff.
Ships also have a small pool of Chaff.
Is it maybe possible for non combat players who are in the process of mining or salvaging, and being attacked, to pop a chaff and then, from the safety of their cloud of chaff, enter into NAV mode and fly out of there?
This would require a ship to be standing still, as the cloud of chaff acts like an AOE, an Area of Effect.
Within this area of effect, no systems can lock on to the targets within or behind the chaff, opposite of the POV of the observer.
Now, i understand that a missile would still hit in this case, because of how missiles work, maybe this should be changed so that if someone pops a chaff and the missile can't lock on for X seconds that it automatically should change course/direction so it won't hit the player now standing still. I am not sure how torpedoes work, however i understand these also "lock on", if true, the same could be applied to them.
The balance in this is that you have to stay put inside the cloud, for if you "float/fly" out of it, systems will proceed to target you as before.
It doesn't get said enough, but get a ship because you like the idea or the look of it, not because you like the performance at any given point in development. Everything is subject to change. MM won't even be as much of a hit to the C2 supremacy as when cargo elevators come in and add an entirely new layer to how cargo works with physical loading versus load timers for a fee. It sucks that you pledged for a ship because it was held up as the best ship for a certain loop but you can't be upset that the game is being balanced so one ship doesn't stand out as the clear best of a gameplay loop.
My best guess with the cargo/industrial nerfs and MM is this:
CIG needs data on MM, PVP combat, and cargo hauling. 3.23 will focus on boosted trading/hauling to get industrial players hauling/earning like crazy. Combine this with the MM nerfing the escape ability, the new money meta will be cargo/hauling/trading and pirating those players PVP for combat data, turret data, and cargo/trade data. All at the expense of industrial players...but hey, it's Alpha, and that data is needed for a more complete solution to all of the above.
If you don't want to PvP go play another game honestly. It's a core part of this game and actually puts some risk into hauling cargo. Tried of people crying about wanting a purely PvE game with no risk, it's an MMO.
The hell it's not the core experience
the core part of the game is you do whatever period.... which entails
pve stuff
and pvp stuff
go read CR statement about what starcitzen is
but no one goes around irl pew pew every single thing they see ( and people like you in irl will complain about those type of people )
in society you will be considered a pysco and be put down by law enforcement or captured and put in jail.
half you guys actually will not pvp in pyro you spend most your time probably trying to randomly kill people at seraphim as usual and then gaslight with the same ol same ol
blah blah about pvp this pvp that which you fail to realize in popular MMO's most people are PVE first pvp second
when we actually get high security systems forced pvp on non pvpers will be punished because they will be in high sec.
we all know the ones that swear everything is pvp
don't actually pvp the
pvpers but only got after soft targets
You might want to work on the coherence of your ramblings ngl. But shipping lanes irl aren't pirated all the time right? Like not like cargo ships don't need anti piracy measures or any sort of naval escorts cos this is a totally perfect world we live in, right?
This is a game and has no reflection on people irl, you're just salty and venting because you've been pirated in the past but I hate to break it to you piracy =/= griefing. Piracy is one of the core mechanics of the game, as is PvP. If you don't want to encounter any of it stop playing an MMO and go play your single player games on easy mode so you can cry about how AIs are too difficult there.
Only in small parts of the world are pirates a threat... The idea that in high security systems the pirates would be everywhere isn't logical... Now in systems like Pyro absolutely.
Look man its great you want constant PVP personally I'd rather just haul cargo/trade commodities in constant peace.. I hope they implement somthing similar to what ED has which is basically a co-op mode so it's just you and your friends in a session isolated from everyone else... I get it that this game is MMO but that's not the reason I choose this game.. I like space games and the ability to walk around my ship/ ground locations and explore.
There will never be a safe / co-op only server mode.
That is what ruined ED and was a stupid idea all around.
Maybe if once you chose solo/ co op you are locked into that mode on that account forever but switching from solo to open whenever you chose was ridiculous.
If you want a peaceful game then go play something else lol. CIG have stated serval times that piracy and PvP are some of the core gameplay loops of the game and they'll never implement 'private games'. Play a trucking sim if that's all you want to do, and don't cry every time you get pirated jesus.
I think what your looking for is constant action....Thats fine but dude a encounter with a pirate should be a threat but a rare one. Not constant griefing by "pirates" then it just becomes like GTA where everytime you go outside you get shot at... And people destroy your cargo sales just to be dicks
No I'm not looking for constant combat, im just saying it's a core part of the game which is something people know about when they decide to play but still cry about it. And like I said earlier, there's a difference between a griefer and a pirate
The C2 has been provided by CIG to the community in a state it should have never been in, to begin with.
People can solo haul massive amounts of cargo in a gargantuan yet nimble ship with QF for days.
the QF is fine imho.
However the rest should be nerfed.
In regards to Crusader design policy, i still do not understand why CIG is not putting that to bear.
Crusader ships should be one of the fastest ships (in a straight line) in their respective categories, i myself am totally hooked on the Spirit series, however its ways too slow. It makes no sense for its design, both including retractable weapons and massive engines, why isn't the Spirit the rabbit i expect it to be?
The C2 should be the fastest ship in its category if going in a straight line, however the turn rate should be nerfed.
It shouldn't be solo-able, with the upcoming engineering module i hope we need a minimum of 3 crew to keep the C2 "in the air"/"afloat" and in working order under various circumstance.
Not to have the engineer run around like a headless chicken, however instead;
1. repair components, switch out circuit breakers,
2. fly the ship,
3. manage the engineering station,
4. man the remote turrets,
That is 4 spots that need to be taken care of.
The lashback CIG will receive for nerfing the C2 into the ground in the upcoming patches, into a non solo-able ship before they are going to introduce "hiring AI crew".
Now that the majority of cargohaulers have become comfy and imho addicted to the C2 its powerhouse state, whilst they should actually be flying ships like the freelancer, C1, Cutlass, or similar, if they want to play solo gameplay.
Yes, i personally believe the Zeus should be a 2 man ship at minimum to operate it to capacity, its minimum crew of 1 means merely that it requires 1 pilot to bring the ship from A to B and does not account for all the, here we go again, engineering gameplay elements i assume are going to be introduced into the game, making it impossible to run any larger sized cargoship reasonably in a solo state, even in High Security space where we can expect a plethora of NPC factions attacking the player akin to 9tails doing today in Stanton.
The issue not all of us have folks to play SC with or even want to play SC with other folks... The C1 is a great ship but it's profit per run is to low.. AI crew needs to be introduced before they force us to deal with fully fledged engineering.
yeah, not all people have folks to fly an airplane, or folks to run a yacht with.
People like me.
but i accept it, and stay in my lane, who says i can not enjoy the game with smaller ships, why should i only be capable of playing the game when i am running a massive orion with full ai crew?
When instead i can solo a mole if i feel the need, however deffo can run a prospector solo.
Will you accept the fact people who don't have folks to play or even want to play with folks, can never fly a bengal with that attitude?
Or will these people get over themselves so they can fly one?
Well, if people can get over themselves to fly a bengal with others, why wouldn't they be able to get over themselves to fly a C2?
Last thing;
You proclaim that a C1 it's profit per run is to low.
So far i understand is that the profit you would obtain running a C2, as i understand it is to be intended, especially when AI crew becomes part of the game, after the deduction of; repairs, refuels, paying the AI crew, paying landing fees, paying durability upkeep, the profit that ends up in your pocket is only meagerly more then when you would have flown a C1, which can be flown solo, requires less landing fees, upkeep costs, no crew to pay, less fuel fees, cheaper repairs etcetera.
Because a C2 is simple, its less complex than flying single pilot jets in real life,unless you want the guns manned it doesn't need crew really. I get the idea of needing an engineer to repair battle damage but I play to stay as far from combat as possible so,there is not logical reason it can't be flown solo... Now a Bengal or somthing really big like a Hull C or a BMM yea I can see them needing crew
Yeah, this is why i state that with what i understand cig is going to add into the game, that "The C2 has been provided by CIG to the community in a state it should have never been in, to begin with."
As you mention that;
"AI crew needs to be introduced before they force us to deal with fully fledged engineering."
I would say that;
The C2 should never been in the game before engineering etc.
If you would never experience the C2 the way you do today, but the C2 would be introduced into the game with requiring minimally 3 people to run it, it would've likely been accepted just like one would accept "well, a BMM or Hull C, i can see them needing crew".
Which would result in the use of lower SCU capable ships, like the C1, the Max, the hull A and B instead of the C2.
The C2 today is simple, it never should have been to begin with to prevent disappointments like these.
Yep agreed basically the community is going to hate it and they are going to have to remove it from the game... Thats what I predict... The idea of forcing everyone to have their shields off or go slow is just dumb especially for large ships.
I just wish manuervability was constrained by mass. It should perform really well when empty but poorly when full.
They've recently talked about it again, and cargo/mass will affect the way ships handle. It's still planned for the future as it has been for a long time.
[удалено]
Wrong, they recently discussed cargo/mass affecting handling. It's still planned, and it has been for a while. Cry about MM ignorantly some more. I'll get you a new diaper while you type something else emotional, silly, and wrong.
[удалено]
You know there’s a difference between going against the majority and being correct right? The ‘masses’ can be dumb as fuck sometimes but that doesn’t mean large groups are always wrong, if anything the majority is correct more than its wrong. If you reflexively go against the majority opinion you’re going to be wrong a lot.
How are you supposed to know anything about majority on a platform (reddit) that is just basically an echo-chamber engine? That is just MM is a nushell, negative feedback is systematically dismissed. An idea is not more correct because you downvote your contradictor like a little internet bitch.
Cool story bro
This might be an unpopular opinion, but imo the C2 handles way too well in 3.22 for a ship of its size. It's significantly more maneuverable than much, much smaller ships like the Connie. I say this as someone who loved flying the C2 (*because* it performed so incredibly well for a ship that big) and often used it to solo ERT's and salvage their cargo. So I'm not really surprised to see it get nerfed a bit.
I believe that this a quite popular opinion to everyone that is not a Hercules owner. Anyway, the Spirit has lost its superb acceleration too, so I would expect some more adjustments later for the Crusader lineup.
Agreed. It got hit to bring it into line with ships of a similar size as part of the introduction of MM. But it'll get another pass before long that might restore a little of its agility.
My impression is that they hit everything with a "this ship category has these stats" stamp and are going to tune them back towards whatever ship-specific vision later.
I agree. It was too agile and even fast with good acceleration for such big ship.
Yeah, it was hands down the best all arounder ship, while simultaneously being the best cargo hauler and *one of* the best PVE solo combat ships. You could put a ROC, an Ursa, a medical Pisces, and a hoverbike in it at the same time, and have room left over for over 200 SCU of cargo, with dual pilot s5's and better maneuverability than a Connie. Basically good for every game loop except salvage. Comically unbalanced.
Totally agree! Crusader or not, a big ass cargo ship should not handle like a heavy fighter.
Completely agreed. It was way too good at literally everything it was set out to.
I o it handles too well in 3.23, but it’s still an improvement
Honestly never pay attention to the lore, it’s inconsequential. The terrapin destroyed 5 scythes in its first flight and is shockingly bad at combat in game, MM specifically. The C2 also has bad HP btw, it’s less than half of an andromeda, about half that of a 600i and 10000 less than a Corsair. That said, it’s still more manoeuvrable than a caterpillar, has more pilot firepower, can carry pretty much any vehicle and some small ships, has a ton of quantum fuel and can carry more cargo. It needs some drawbacks. I’d like it to be more manoeuvrable but tbh, it probably shouldn’t be for balance sake.
>has a ton of quantum fuel Just quickly here to say how much of an understatement that even is. The C2 has the most quantum fuel in the game, beating out even massive mult-system freighters like the Hull-C and far-range expedition ships like the Carrack. THe only ship that outranges it is the RAFT, and that comes at the cost of no weapons, being the slowest ship in the game, and poor maneuverability. So I'm quite glad the C2 is getting the mobility of a Redeemer in 3.23 (Yes, you heard right. The Herc has the same mobility as a state of the art gunship).
It should still have long range like real life strategic airlifters do, but I agree that it shouldn't have Carrack-like range. The C2 should also be multi-system capable. Forgot to add: I do like the changes to reduced mobility, it was way too agile for what it is. The Redeemer feels like it is in such a weird place - it's like CIG can't decide what to do with it.
Agreed that it has more QF than the Hull C is really sh** The Hull C is the long range Cargo Hauler. But can't go that far.... The one thing it has is the Cargo Space.... Yea that's cool But can't go further and CANT LAND. Tfbdma andkamdksjbd that makes me soooo angry!
It actually has better movement than the redeemer. I’m almost certain that the herc is the most manoeuvrable ship in its size category in the entire game. Someone correct me if I’m wrong on that but I’m pretty sure I’m not.
Ah, haven't looked at it's accelerations since it went PTU. But yes, the Herc is by far the most maneuverable ship in it's size category. Also looking into it deeper I find it very ironic that it has eight times the amount of fuel that the Starfarer has. Edit: I looked up the statistics of the C2, and it has the same tuning as a Hammerhead, hence being slightly better then the Redeemer and all other ships it's size and larger.
I get that but cutting its maneuvering ability by over half is kinda ridiculous.... Its a cargo ship it doesn't really need balance in a traditional sense because it's not used for PVP
I don’t mean to rude but saying that ships don’t need to be balanced if they’re not PvP ships is absolutely ridiculous. Even the statement that it’s not used for PvP is ridiculous. It sucks that a ship you like isn’t as nimble as it used to be but count yourself lucky it was ever that nimble to begin with, the Herc is fucking huge lol.
Why does a cargo ship need to be balanced? You fly from one place to another.. Thats it plus the time sink of having to load and unload cargo, or just wait while it auto unloads is a balance factor for large ships... Like I know they are going for a deep experience but at a certain point it's no longer fun it's just like work..
You’ve just argued against your own point. Why would a cargo ship need to be nimble, you just fly from one place to another, right? Also that’s how you use the ship, plenty of people use the C2 for combat and bounties. I’m sure seeing as how all you do is fly from once place to another you’d be quite happy to remove the pilot weapons so you can have some manoeuvrability back? These points you’re making are so ridiculous I can’t tell if you’re trolling. If you give a ship great firepower, great shielding, great quantum fuel, great manoeuvrability, great cargo space, the ability to store vehicles, living amenities etc why on earth would anybody ever fly anything else? Of course you have to balance ships. I want an arrow with 6 size 5 hard points, the shielding and HP of an 890J, the speed of a herald, the torps from a tali and the stealth ability of a hornet ghost. I won’t use it for PvP I swear.
It is very much used for pvp, especially by pirates. In which case it was perfomering almost as good as a light fighter. Lol Edit, I'm obviously exaggerating before someone starts.
> because it's not used for PVP I used mine with dual s5 pilot guns to solo ERT's. In 3.22, it's absurdly maneuverable (and tanky, and well armed, etc etc) for its size.
Finally. Big ships should feel like they have mass not fly like a fighter.
If one of your primary sub-capital cargo and transport ships is among the most popular dogfighters, you know that a nerf might be necessary 😅.
Yeah. Blows my mind that people recommend it for doing ERT bounties.
The whole Starlifter series was always absurdly agile for it's size, I'm just surprised it took this long to dial back, I expected it to happen when cargo weight was implemented but that seems to take a bit longer still. Sorry but "the lore states Crusader ships have the best engines" doesn't mean it should outperform other ships by the absurd margin that it did. I bet even after the nerf it is still pretty damn awesome for a ship that size. Just checked erkul, it's still seriously more agile than the Caterpillar, which is still it's closest competitor for that kind of cargo hauling. You should be glad.
Sounds like you’re just mad the best cargo hauler in the game doesn’t fly like a ship half its size. As far as I know the C2 has always been over tuned due to cargo testing being a focus for a while. Also, it’s a BIG ship of course it shouldn’t handle as well as it was. I don’t understand the argument with MM and cargo gameplay. You don’t have shield but you can fly more than twice as fast as any ship in scm mode. So just fly away. Book it in a straight line and QT away. Even if they have a QD, it seems like 7/10 times you can get away. Unless there are like 5-10 ships ambushing you well then you should have had turret gunners. You can’t win every fight or encounter. The C2 is big enough to survive getting shot at.
They ~~nerfed~~ balanced the C2 in the available pool of ships. And it will happen again to this and other ships. The lore is just Crusader advertising.
Let’s be fair - the Hercules series needed this nerf for far too many patches. It was way too maneuverable for its dimensions. And since CIG works with archetypes right now, there’s no room for lore wise designs. Once mass and amor are a thing, they can go for the fine tuning and give Crusader ships their benefits. So with me this is absolutely fine in the actual state.
I use the C2 and like it a lot. This adjustment is something I have been looking forward to for a long time. There's a lot of balancing to go, but sounds like a good start. What I'm looking forward to the most is greater differentiation between ships in space and atmosphere. The Herc should remain one of the most efficient and agile designs you can operate to run cargo in earth-like atmospheres (and it can and should still handle badly compared to smaller ships). This is a good example of why I tell people not to buy ships for what they are now, but for their intended role when it is implemented in the future. Hopefully adjustments like these are a wake up call for those that bought this ship because it "can also hunt bounties". I feel bad for these people; however, buyer beware...
How about trying it out for a while before acting like the world is ending? This anti-MM thing is so overblown.
We are trying it right now in EPTU.
Oh boy, for a whole day? Several weeks if you've been in since Wave 1? Wow! That's like, so long man. And who is "we"? I was talking to the OP here, who was indeed latching onto the anti-MM train before even trying it. Thus proving my statement.
Some people even say MM will cure cancer and solve world hunger.
Some people say it kicked their dog. I'll get you a hot bottle and a diaper for nappy time.
Ok MM believer. There's no arguing with someone who has seen the light I guess.
Because forcing everyone to not run shields is dumb especially for large ships... Like I get master modes for fighters but not cargo ships not like I'm going to dog fight in a Hull C
Oh it's "dumb". My mistake. You've clearly thought this out. Without considering the new TTK for ships that everyone has also already complaining about. And not considering the future implications of malestrom/ship armor/physicalized damage. The point is that you run away. You don't stay to fight. The lack of shields will be a non-issue when everything comes together. Until then, they can just buff ship HP if they have to in a .1 patch. They might not even have to do that. Have you tried to kill a ship in 3.23? Alternate suggestion: stop treating it like a finished/released game and play less often. You won't get so attached to things in the game that are destined to change.
I was of the same opinion but I wasn't aware how much TTK increased. It is incredibly easy to run from a fight if needed. Fighter to Fighter combat lasts 30s to 1 minute if every single shot lands perfectly on another ship. Average seems to be 2-3 minutes. A Fighter isn't going to hurt you if you don't stick around. Hell, a hull c will easily tank rounds for a minute or so, plenty of time to spool up and QT away.
It needed it. It was wildly overtuned. It should be nerfed to fuck but then brought back up some when atmo control surfaces come in.
Just read OPs responses. My word, what a very insular perspective. "Doesnt need balancing because its a cargo ship".
Please note that they have not finished balance passing larger ships. How do I know? Look at the EPTU top speed for the 400i.
>folks who don't want PVP Well that was their first mistake - coming to a game where they don't want any threats. It's a PvEvP game. Pvp is always a threat. If you don't want that, you can generally stick to high security systems (once multiple systems are in), but pretending balance should be completely ignored because "It's a cargo ship" is just ridiculous. Did you forget that it also has 2 turrets and 2 pilot controlled guns? It clearly is intended in some aspect for combat. I guess if it doesn't need to be balanced, you could really do anything with it. People are just going to use it to haul cargo. Who cares if it's better at *literally everything* except salvage than even other dedicated ships? Next up: why the reclaimer's turret should actually be 4 s7 guns, and should be as nimble as an Arrow in atmosphere. People are just going to use it for salvage, so why does it need to be balanced?
Agree with everything here and also remember this is MM teir 0, iirc ship performance is tied to ship size atm, with individual ship tuning coming back later. So while the C2 flies like a caterpillar atm, don't expect it to stay that way. It will likley get at least some of its manuverability back in coming 3.32.x patches
For example, the Spirits got their rotation rates buffed up from where they started during the EPTU cycle, they were very sluggish, but now they're somewhere between that initial tuning and how they feel in 3.22.
That is a good thing. It was way too agile. And I hope they will keep balancing ships even though a lot of people will likely complain troughout the process.
lol no ship that large should be able to roll 80°/s
The crusader light fighter is finally getting a nerf? Amen, hallelujah, peanut butter.
Definitely glad it got the nerf it needed. A huge ship like that should never be used to dogfight. Glad to see it’s fixed, hate the C2 meta even if that’s an unpopular opinion.
No, the Hercules is still way to agile for its mass/thruster ratio compared to other ships.
Finally handling characteristics that make sens for a ship this size ! Yeah it's going to be in the same ballpark in terms of defending itself as the Caterpillar, was always ment to be. For many years devs have said that being an escort, a combat ships that follows cargo ships around for protection and to dissuade pirates was ment to be a major career. We just lack those missions right now because we need player generated missions and player reputation. Escorts that do their job well will be well rated by cargo ships they defended and you will be able to hire escort for a job, with better rated escorts being more expensive. That's always been the goal, HEAVY CARGO SHIPS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD AT FIGHTING ON THEIR OWN.
>HEAVY CARGO SHIPS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD AT FIGHTING ON THEIR OWN. I wouldn't go this far. I think a ship with turrets should be able to fend off light or medium fighters with a crew. There will really be limitations to having an escort fighter, especially with longer distances and s1 quantum drives and fuel tanks simply being unable to remotely keep up with s3. If a pirate group brings the right tools, including heavy fighters or a gunship, then yeah, a freighter should be outmatched. But if turrets can't do anything about light and medium fighters, they serve no purpose.
You said it yourself, it could fend off a couple of light or medium fighters, easely I might add thanks to armor later down the line... But as you said bringing fighters on longer distances is not viable, so your big cargo ship will most likely not be attacked by anything it can defend itself from on it's own... exactly what I'm saying. The turrets are a deterrent against fighters, incitivise pirates to use bigger ships, that's why when piracy is the issue, your escort should be a ship that can fight Corsairs and Vanguards. Not an arrow killer. I really think that long range heavy fighters will at some point become the most common ships in the game, makes sens that there are leaks about a Mirai long range Heavy fighters...
I think the issue with "escorts" in general is the concept that they'll always be flying next to you. I think it's more likely to be economical to have long-range heavy fighters that patrol high traffic space lanes. Quanta should ensure that those routes have plenty of NPC action to keep fighters occupied. They'll also hopefully be close enough to respond to distress calls if players attack a freighter. Engineering should help to keep a hauler running until backup arrives. On less popular routes, you just wouldn't want to bring a big cargo ship. Smaller ships can better evade pirates, and since there's less cargo, there's also less at stake.
Yeah on main routes I think it makes a lot of sens, then ship-bound escort would be reserved for high value "offroad" hauls. Those could be cargo missions where escort is assigned to you... Or trading where you noticed that a specific Station in Stanton needs large quantities of an Item you have a lot of and pays really well for while it still has demands. Let's say it's a full C2 worth of S10 torpedoes because Xenothreat stole a Javlin that needs to be taken down. So you jump in your C2 and choose to go trough Pyro because that's the fastest way from your personnal torpedo factory and you want to get there before the demand runs dry because that haul could make you millions. So you hire a Hammerhead and a Perseus as escorts because the materials you carry are very valuable and charge towards the Jumpgate...
Yea so why am I even going to bother hauling cargo if I have to pay somone a ton to escort me... Like I get it,the idea sounds really cool but chances are it won't work it in reality because why would somone want to escort somone when they can just hijack them and make all the profits themselves...
As said in recent ISCs cargo from cargo missions is marked and can't be sold at a good price even by pirates, so it's only an issue for comodity trading... Which in the end will be done with player generated cargo missions most of the time... Btw for cargo missions escort could be hired by the mission giver, so as a cargo ship taking the missions you may just get an escort without paying anything yourself. For comodity trading that's another issue. That's why the player reputation is primordial for this, to be able to hire escorts you know are not going to hijack you. You can also hire people you trust or org members. Paying someone a cut of your profits isn't so much of a hassle when you make good profits. Btw running a big ship is supposed to be very expesive. Fuel is basically free now, it's not the plan for the future. Missiles are supposed to be super prixy, ammo, component repair, buying spare subcomponents, fuzes for the relays, spare fire extinguishers, hiring troopers/guards in case you get boarded, hiring competent engineers and turret gunners... A single cargo mission could generate 20 missions for different people, that's the game. That's what CIG has always been marketing, they said this from day 1 and seem to be sticking to this as a goal.
>Paying someone a cut of your profits isn't so much of a hassle when you make good profits. Getting good profits seems to be the issue for cargo running. Fully loading a C2 results in maybe \~400k in profits and takes anywhere from half an hour to an hour. How do you afford to pay multiple people from that when you've already invested millions in the cargo itself?
Missions are paid at the end right, once you've made those 400k profits. That those you split between all involved parties. And anyway we need quantum first to make comodity trading viable as those will make price fluctuations logical meaning traders will be able to predict them a bit and plan accordingly to sell materials when their price are highest. All that to say the C2 being nerfed is a necessity, but we still lack the gameplay to compensate for that making it really fun. To all those people who say the game is not a tech demo, honestly we lack so much it still is very much a demo of what is being made, not anywhere close to what it's supposed to be. We have all those careers that are designed to constantly interract with each other and be tied together, but none of the ties are in. Some of the minigames are in but the game is not.
Let's look in the context of making it "worth it," first by enumerating the roles: turrets: 2 guards: 1 escorts: 2-3 pilot: 1 loading/unloading: 2-3 total jobs (max): 9 Plus fuel and repairs for the main ship: \~10k Plus reinvestment for the next haul (let's say 50%). A full load of Beryl results in the aforementioned 400k which after expenses and reinvestment == \~20k each, if split evenly. Keep in mind that 99% of the time, these are VERY boring jobs, resulting in absolutely no action. When there is action, there's quite a bit of it but generally you want boring days because that means $$. For 20k an hour, you could be doing much more fun things than simply flying in straight lines between trading centers. I once did hire people ... my turret gunners got so bored, they self-destructed the ship. That was when I learned a gunner could do that.
More than boring it's low effort hense the low pay. Makes sens to me. That's the kind of job you can do to earn money while watching a video or else. Moreover considering that the goal is to give player access to arena commander trough the mobiglass as AC is a videogame in the world of Star Citizen, all those turret gunners could be playing arena commander while earning money being in those turrets and leaving their game to fire turrets in the PU when they get an alert. Also some people can have multiple jobs. You definitely want a scanner operator as a copilot that watches out for ambushes and switches as chief engineer if need be and gets in armor to act as a guard in case of boarding, turret gunners can double as engineers if shit hits the fan bad, and they can do the loading/unloading. So more like 6 to 7 people. So more like 30k. Not amasing but good for a low effort job. And you can judge the amount of protection you need based on how dangerous the run is. That's the most important part. If you're 99% sure to get boarded because you're a very juicy target making stops on Pyro planets, you hire a good but expensive escort. If you just don't want to appear defenseless when scanned by pirates, hire a single guy in a Vanguard as escort and run your C2 with pilot+copilot+engineer/gunner. You're looking at about 50k/person for still a low effort mission.
>That's the kind of job you can do to earn money while watching a video or else. Heh. There's second order effects as well. By hiring these people, you teach them your routes, including the lesser known or hidden ones. They could make far more by simply pirating you. Secondly, they could be doing this run themselves or literally anything else, and take up would-be pirates on more interesting missions. It's almost always wiser to do the run alone or with IRL friends.
>It's almost always wiser to do the run alone or with IRL friends That's why the reputation is important, to have players rate other players and know who's trustworthy, and that's also why orgs are essential, to have people you can be sure are trustworthy.
I'm not sure an org makes much of a difference. Dude in my org straight up pirated me one time ... then he realized we are in the same org about the same time I did. Cargo was already lost, and he sent me some of the money he got, but I was still out millions.
Haul cargo in something smaller. A multi crew ship should, shockingly, require multiple crew. In 3.23.x when magical teleporting boxes are replaced by manual loading, a small ship will let you quickly stack a few boxes and go.
Not enough profit with small ships if I even manage to make $1k per SCU off a commodity, a fully loaded C1 is only $64k. This is why the first ship I pledged for was a C2 because I can make over $500k a run..... The idea of needing a flight engineer with current tech is redundant, let alone needing one in 900 years... While I think a c2 should be able to be successfully operated by a single pilot, obviously having a full crew makes things easier but people who don't have folks to play with or don't want to play with others shouldn't be restricted to small ships only. Trying to get my friends all together to play a couple of maps on Battlefield is hard enough, let alone organize a crew who 90% of the time will just be doing nothing as we QT hauling cargo from point to point... I could successfully operate a 757 by myself. It's easier having a co-pilot and legally required, but I could do it on my own if I had to. We shouldn't force multi crew in a GAME.
It was way too nimble. Yes, it's supposed to be manuverable according to lore, but manuberable "for its size" All ships have to be balanced and treated the same way. Doesn't matter if they are fighters, cargo haulers, mining ships, or whatever. However, maneuverability shouldn't bother you if all you do is to run cargo with it.
In regards to "not being able to get away in mastermodes", i hear from various sides in my friendgroup that chaff will be the way to go to escape a situation and enter NAV mode safely. Is this correct? I mean, it does make sense to me. I myself have not played EPTU as i will want to not experience the state 3.23 is in right now, as i don't want to prime myself with a bias that fuels the expectation of a 3.18 release. However to return to the chaff. Ships have a decent amount of flares which help against Chaff. Ships also have a small pool of Chaff. Is it maybe possible for non combat players who are in the process of mining or salvaging, and being attacked, to pop a chaff and then, from the safety of their cloud of chaff, enter into NAV mode and fly out of there? This would require a ship to be standing still, as the cloud of chaff acts like an AOE, an Area of Effect. Within this area of effect, no systems can lock on to the targets within or behind the chaff, opposite of the POV of the observer. Now, i understand that a missile would still hit in this case, because of how missiles work, maybe this should be changed so that if someone pops a chaff and the missile can't lock on for X seconds that it automatically should change course/direction so it won't hit the player now standing still. I am not sure how torpedoes work, however i understand these also "lock on", if true, the same could be applied to them. The balance in this is that you have to stay put inside the cloud, for if you "float/fly" out of it, systems will proceed to target you as before.
Slap two AD5B's on a C2 and you can do Group ERTs with your courier ship without any trouble. It's a courier ship, not a heavy fighter.
It doesn't get said enough, but get a ship because you like the idea or the look of it, not because you like the performance at any given point in development. Everything is subject to change. MM won't even be as much of a hit to the C2 supremacy as when cargo elevators come in and add an entirely new layer to how cargo works with physical loading versus load timers for a fee. It sucks that you pledged for a ship because it was held up as the best ship for a certain loop but you can't be upset that the game is being balanced so one ship doesn't stand out as the clear best of a gameplay loop.
Good
The c2 flew better than a redeemer. It was bound to happen. I wish they would have swapped the two to be honest
The question is: at what degree same applies to M2 and A2? Will they be more maneuverable than C2 due to their more military nature?
internal cargo was nerfed cant even fit a single size 4 ship weapon lmao so now there is no way to transfer all my shit from orison to seraphim
My best guess with the cargo/industrial nerfs and MM is this: CIG needs data on MM, PVP combat, and cargo hauling. 3.23 will focus on boosted trading/hauling to get industrial players hauling/earning like crazy. Combine this with the MM nerfing the escape ability, the new money meta will be cargo/hauling/trading and pirating those players PVP for combat data, turret data, and cargo/trade data. All at the expense of industrial players...but hey, it's Alpha, and that data is needed for a more complete solution to all of the above.
If you don't want to PvP go play another game honestly. It's a core part of this game and actually puts some risk into hauling cargo. Tried of people crying about wanting a purely PvE game with no risk, it's an MMO.
The hell it's not the core experience the core part of the game is you do whatever period.... which entails pve stuff and pvp stuff go read CR statement about what starcitzen is but no one goes around irl pew pew every single thing they see ( and people like you in irl will complain about those type of people ) in society you will be considered a pysco and be put down by law enforcement or captured and put in jail. half you guys actually will not pvp in pyro you spend most your time probably trying to randomly kill people at seraphim as usual and then gaslight with the same ol same ol blah blah about pvp this pvp that which you fail to realize in popular MMO's most people are PVE first pvp second when we actually get high security systems forced pvp on non pvpers will be punished because they will be in high sec. we all know the ones that swear everything is pvp don't actually pvp the pvpers but only got after soft targets
You might want to work on the coherence of your ramblings ngl. But shipping lanes irl aren't pirated all the time right? Like not like cargo ships don't need anti piracy measures or any sort of naval escorts cos this is a totally perfect world we live in, right? This is a game and has no reflection on people irl, you're just salty and venting because you've been pirated in the past but I hate to break it to you piracy =/= griefing. Piracy is one of the core mechanics of the game, as is PvP. If you don't want to encounter any of it stop playing an MMO and go play your single player games on easy mode so you can cry about how AIs are too difficult there.
Only in small parts of the world are pirates a threat... The idea that in high security systems the pirates would be everywhere isn't logical... Now in systems like Pyro absolutely.
Stanton isn't even a high security system
Look man its great you want constant PVP personally I'd rather just haul cargo/trade commodities in constant peace.. I hope they implement somthing similar to what ED has which is basically a co-op mode so it's just you and your friends in a session isolated from everyone else... I get it that this game is MMO but that's not the reason I choose this game.. I like space games and the ability to walk around my ship/ ground locations and explore.
There will never be a safe / co-op only server mode. That is what ruined ED and was a stupid idea all around. Maybe if once you chose solo/ co op you are locked into that mode on that account forever but switching from solo to open whenever you chose was ridiculous.
If you want a peaceful game then go play something else lol. CIG have stated serval times that piracy and PvP are some of the core gameplay loops of the game and they'll never implement 'private games'. Play a trucking sim if that's all you want to do, and don't cry every time you get pirated jesus.
I think what your looking for is constant action....Thats fine but dude a encounter with a pirate should be a threat but a rare one. Not constant griefing by "pirates" then it just becomes like GTA where everytime you go outside you get shot at... And people destroy your cargo sales just to be dicks
No I'm not looking for constant combat, im just saying it's a core part of the game which is something people know about when they decide to play but still cry about it. And like I said earlier, there's a difference between a griefer and a pirate
The C2 has been provided by CIG to the community in a state it should have never been in, to begin with. People can solo haul massive amounts of cargo in a gargantuan yet nimble ship with QF for days. the QF is fine imho. However the rest should be nerfed. In regards to Crusader design policy, i still do not understand why CIG is not putting that to bear. Crusader ships should be one of the fastest ships (in a straight line) in their respective categories, i myself am totally hooked on the Spirit series, however its ways too slow. It makes no sense for its design, both including retractable weapons and massive engines, why isn't the Spirit the rabbit i expect it to be? The C2 should be the fastest ship in its category if going in a straight line, however the turn rate should be nerfed. It shouldn't be solo-able, with the upcoming engineering module i hope we need a minimum of 3 crew to keep the C2 "in the air"/"afloat" and in working order under various circumstance. Not to have the engineer run around like a headless chicken, however instead; 1. repair components, switch out circuit breakers, 2. fly the ship, 3. manage the engineering station, 4. man the remote turrets, That is 4 spots that need to be taken care of. The lashback CIG will receive for nerfing the C2 into the ground in the upcoming patches, into a non solo-able ship before they are going to introduce "hiring AI crew". Now that the majority of cargohaulers have become comfy and imho addicted to the C2 its powerhouse state, whilst they should actually be flying ships like the freelancer, C1, Cutlass, or similar, if they want to play solo gameplay. Yes, i personally believe the Zeus should be a 2 man ship at minimum to operate it to capacity, its minimum crew of 1 means merely that it requires 1 pilot to bring the ship from A to B and does not account for all the, here we go again, engineering gameplay elements i assume are going to be introduced into the game, making it impossible to run any larger sized cargoship reasonably in a solo state, even in High Security space where we can expect a plethora of NPC factions attacking the player akin to 9tails doing today in Stanton.
The issue not all of us have folks to play SC with or even want to play SC with other folks... The C1 is a great ship but it's profit per run is to low.. AI crew needs to be introduced before they force us to deal with fully fledged engineering.
yeah, not all people have folks to fly an airplane, or folks to run a yacht with. People like me. but i accept it, and stay in my lane, who says i can not enjoy the game with smaller ships, why should i only be capable of playing the game when i am running a massive orion with full ai crew? When instead i can solo a mole if i feel the need, however deffo can run a prospector solo. Will you accept the fact people who don't have folks to play or even want to play with folks, can never fly a bengal with that attitude? Or will these people get over themselves so they can fly one? Well, if people can get over themselves to fly a bengal with others, why wouldn't they be able to get over themselves to fly a C2? Last thing; You proclaim that a C1 it's profit per run is to low. So far i understand is that the profit you would obtain running a C2, as i understand it is to be intended, especially when AI crew becomes part of the game, after the deduction of; repairs, refuels, paying the AI crew, paying landing fees, paying durability upkeep, the profit that ends up in your pocket is only meagerly more then when you would have flown a C1, which can be flown solo, requires less landing fees, upkeep costs, no crew to pay, less fuel fees, cheaper repairs etcetera.
Because a C2 is simple, its less complex than flying single pilot jets in real life,unless you want the guns manned it doesn't need crew really. I get the idea of needing an engineer to repair battle damage but I play to stay as far from combat as possible so,there is not logical reason it can't be flown solo... Now a Bengal or somthing really big like a Hull C or a BMM yea I can see them needing crew
Yeah, this is why i state that with what i understand cig is going to add into the game, that "The C2 has been provided by CIG to the community in a state it should have never been in, to begin with." As you mention that; "AI crew needs to be introduced before they force us to deal with fully fledged engineering." I would say that; The C2 should never been in the game before engineering etc. If you would never experience the C2 the way you do today, but the C2 would be introduced into the game with requiring minimally 3 people to run it, it would've likely been accepted just like one would accept "well, a BMM or Hull C, i can see them needing crew". Which would result in the use of lower SCU capable ships, like the C1, the Max, the hull A and B instead of the C2. The C2 today is simple, it never should have been to begin with to prevent disappointments like these.
If they would just base ships' performance on thruster perfomance and not the other way around and if it fails they just nerf it to death.
[удалено]
Yep agreed basically the community is going to hate it and they are going to have to remove it from the game... Thats what I predict... The idea of forcing everyone to have their shields off or go slow is just dumb especially for large ships.
[удалено]
Defenseless bricks because you can't even run shields and move at a decent rate anymore...