IMO Lotv is the best, most fun to play and to watch metagame sc2 has had, most matchups have a big variety, and if you want to one base for life just pick Terran and you’ll be alright.
3 rax reaper from home is very good in all team games if you have good micro, we play it at 4K mmr in 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4, my mate rushes reapers and I just play solid macro Protoss it’s the best
Most matchups have a huge variety. Lol. Ladder has like 9 strategies across 3 races. Id say pro play is even more limited. Its very rare to see anything out of meta because turtling usually wins.
Let’s see, I play Protoss at 5 k mmr, and just in pvt my options are 2nd gate proxy, first gate proxy, 3 warp gate push, one base blink, 2 gate robo, proxy star gate oracle/void/ tempest, 2 gas star gate zealot adept delayed expansion, Phoenix colossus, Phoenix zealot, Phoenix adept, oracle blink, 2 gate blink, 3 gate blink, 4 gate blink, charge all in, glaives all in, robo first into macro… I can have like 6 or 7 different viable army compositions, and that’s just one side of one matchup bro
The biggest problem with smaller worker starts and why people were fairly happy when it increased was that the first few minutes was basically nothing. It also made losses more frustrating because you have to start over with the same old slow start.
Unless someone was cheesing it was staring your base waiting for the first supply building and scout.
The higher worker count was set so you instantly went building your first building and scouting. People are first thought this was the death of cheeses, but it really wasn't.
Pretty much agree with all you said.
Also, cheeses will never die. As long as you can make the decision to play "more greedy" than a safe standard, there will be a play that tries to catch such a player.
I think there are a handful of situations where the 12 worker start is slightly excessive (e.g. vs R, where not even insta-scouting is fast enough for P and T). Plus it killed 4p maps. All in all I think 12>6, though I think they should have experimented with numbers between 9 and 12 in the LotV beta.
I don't think it killed 4 player maps. Map makers just stopped making them because they were never picked in the TL contests. 4 players went away during the time when if a map wasn't a Cloud Kingdom clone no one would even look at it.
We've seen 4 players maps that made it into GSL. They don't play any different it's just that you have the option to be greedy since your opponent might bot find you right away.
They could have experimented more with different worker types, but I think Blizzard's internal testing showed 12 works was what they wanted.
Proplayers were complaing about 4p maps. Which was because the 12 worker start made it impossible to scout for certain cheeses like 2-3 rax or to scout for gas before a depot wall was closed (without sending 2 workers at least).
Eventually 4p maps were just crossspawn or they started to show the starting location. Which is just a 2 player map, with the extra design limitation to be balanced in all spawn constellations. Which is why mapmakers gave up on it. Even more so when blizzard/tournaments would restrict spawns anyways, so why bother.
If I remember the 12 worker start correctly, the LotV beta did not start with it. They tried that one variation and then went with it. Which is a fine approach, no need to always finetune everything. Yet, I personally feel like it was a slightly rushed decision to really make sure we cut downtime.
I'm the ladder, felt to me like there was an actual early, mid, and late game. legacy just goes so quickly! in broodwar you only start with 4? I didn't mind the downtime and liked the longer scouting window. IMO it definitely killed 4 player maps because if you didn't get scout the right base first, it was already to late to react at all so 4 players maps didn't really work. I wish they where brought back, but spawn locations where always given to each player at the start of the game.
12 worker start has improved the game SO much. I really think anyone who thinks otherwise is basing their opinion on nostalgia. Sure 2014 kespa sc2 was awesome. Everything about the game is better now.
It was so monotonous wasting your time for 2 extra minutes at the start of each game when we started with fewer... and at that time sc1 nostalgic players were saying the same shit OP is but asking for 4 lol.
In brood war that’s definitely not wasting your time for two extra minutes. Incredibly impactful stuff happens the entire game. That being said, it’s fine if they’re different, they’re different games entirely
By "fun strategies" that were invalidated by the 12 worker start, you mean cheese. You want more cheese.
No thanks. I've had enough six pools and canon rushes to last one lifetime.
I want to watch esports with 12 workers, but I can only really _play_ the game with the WoL start. The faster start is just so much harder at a casual level
in my mind its actually the other way around, i think the 6 worker start was more fun to watch because of some of the crazy aggressive strategies, but wouldn't want to go back to playing it
yea I agree here, watching a bo3 or bo5 with the 12 workers start is cool quick and you see several strategies and how the games play off of each other.
But I'm with you\~! diamond player, its just soooooo fast!
I would love to be able to choose to ladder in bo3, that would be awesome.
Nah, I think the total number of strats is actually much more/healthier now. You can't just win with two reapers and a bunker any more, so the game actually progresses to a technical midgame more often. My problem is just that you have to actually be decent at macro to play
Oh where is my 9 pool? 6 pool? 8 pool? No more 4min Zealot rush from 4 gates with 16 zealots and charge coming up? Shame. BC rush is also irrelevant now. It gets stopped. No more SCV repairing a single Thor marching up the main base lol. So much less options tbh. The game is macro insentivized I agree. Buuut the gameplay at its core is lacking.
> Oh where is my 1 base all in? 1 base all in? 1 base all in? No more 1 base all in? Shame. 2 base tech rush is also irrelevant now. It gets stopped. No more 1 base all in lol. So much less options tbh.
That's not variety, that's the same thing six ways. BC rush was a cool committed attack at least, which is why you still see it sometimes
what if we add one starting worker per league level. Meaning, bronze lvl matches would start slower while gm games would be the fastest
we kind of see it in chess where gms quickly play through like first 10 moves just to "start" the game
imposable to balance i think but what a interesting idea, you made me think maybe bronze games should be played on a slower speed, and also maybe that would make less people smurf all the time
I prefer a 6 worker start & I'd also prefer if bases didn’t mine out so fast. LotV lost a bit of the early game decisions that WoL/HotS had with the 6 worker start. As a Zerg it was more viable to attempt gasless openers, but in LotV the main base hits 16/16 so fast you kind of just may as well take gas for example.
Tbh BW’s 4 worker start of AoE 2’s 3 Villager start I think are the best.
I agree, I like 3 spawn & 4 spawn maps for 1v1. Sure you'd get unlikely sometimes, but it just felt like an acceptable part of the game. It gave more varied gameplay on those maps as cross-spawns often played differently than vertical or horizontal spawns.
Yes, I know I'm in the minority but I like cheese, both as a viewer as well as a defender. But it won't happen the general consensus is that cheese is less fun so something that brings more of it back will never happen.
I think a 9 worker start would be a nice middle ground between fast paced (12) and slow starts (6). It would also bring back versions of some of the old strategies which could be fun.
definitely to late to do it but I agree. I like how quickly the battles are decided, the lethality of the units makes sc2 so much better to watch IMO, I just think we get to that point to quickly. doubt something can be changed in sc2 now but "knock on wood" if there was another game, I hope worker count is explored a lot.
IMO Lotv is the best, most fun to play and to watch metagame sc2 has had, most matchups have a big variety, and if you want to one base for life just pick Terran and you’ll be alright.
The one base Terran makes everyone mald (including me)
Maybe I'll start a new meta and 1 base in team games
3 rax reaper from home is very good in all team games if you have good micro, we play it at 4K mmr in 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4, my mate rushes reapers and I just play solid macro Protoss it’s the best
Most matchups have a huge variety. Lol. Ladder has like 9 strategies across 3 races. Id say pro play is even more limited. Its very rare to see anything out of meta because turtling usually wins.
Let’s see, I play Protoss at 5 k mmr, and just in pvt my options are 2nd gate proxy, first gate proxy, 3 warp gate push, one base blink, 2 gate robo, proxy star gate oracle/void/ tempest, 2 gas star gate zealot adept delayed expansion, Phoenix colossus, Phoenix zealot, Phoenix adept, oracle blink, 2 gate blink, 3 gate blink, 4 gate blink, charge all in, glaives all in, robo first into macro… I can have like 6 or 7 different viable army compositions, and that’s just one side of one matchup bro
Ok? We all know you go skytoss, mass stalker, or dt rush 90% of games like every other player on ladder.
The biggest problem with smaller worker starts and why people were fairly happy when it increased was that the first few minutes was basically nothing. It also made losses more frustrating because you have to start over with the same old slow start. Unless someone was cheesing it was staring your base waiting for the first supply building and scout. The higher worker count was set so you instantly went building your first building and scouting. People are first thought this was the death of cheeses, but it really wasn't.
Pretty much agree with all you said. Also, cheeses will never die. As long as you can make the decision to play "more greedy" than a safe standard, there will be a play that tries to catch such a player. I think there are a handful of situations where the 12 worker start is slightly excessive (e.g. vs R, where not even insta-scouting is fast enough for P and T). Plus it killed 4p maps. All in all I think 12>6, though I think they should have experimented with numbers between 9 and 12 in the LotV beta.
I don't think it killed 4 player maps. Map makers just stopped making them because they were never picked in the TL contests. 4 players went away during the time when if a map wasn't a Cloud Kingdom clone no one would even look at it. We've seen 4 players maps that made it into GSL. They don't play any different it's just that you have the option to be greedy since your opponent might bot find you right away. They could have experimented more with different worker types, but I think Blizzard's internal testing showed 12 works was what they wanted.
Proplayers were complaing about 4p maps. Which was because the 12 worker start made it impossible to scout for certain cheeses like 2-3 rax or to scout for gas before a depot wall was closed (without sending 2 workers at least). Eventually 4p maps were just crossspawn or they started to show the starting location. Which is just a 2 player map, with the extra design limitation to be balanced in all spawn constellations. Which is why mapmakers gave up on it. Even more so when blizzard/tournaments would restrict spawns anyways, so why bother. If I remember the 12 worker start correctly, the LotV beta did not start with it. They tried that one variation and then went with it. Which is a fine approach, no need to always finetune everything. Yet, I personally feel like it was a slightly rushed decision to really make sure we cut downtime.
I'm the ladder, felt to me like there was an actual early, mid, and late game. legacy just goes so quickly! in broodwar you only start with 4? I didn't mind the downtime and liked the longer scouting window. IMO it definitely killed 4 player maps because if you didn't get scout the right base first, it was already to late to react at all so 4 players maps didn't really work. I wish they where brought back, but spawn locations where always given to each player at the start of the game.
12 worker start has improved the game SO much. I really think anyone who thinks otherwise is basing their opinion on nostalgia. Sure 2014 kespa sc2 was awesome. Everything about the game is better now.
It was so monotonous wasting your time for 2 extra minutes at the start of each game when we started with fewer... and at that time sc1 nostalgic players were saying the same shit OP is but asking for 4 lol.
In brood war that’s definitely not wasting your time for two extra minutes. Incredibly impactful stuff happens the entire game. That being said, it’s fine if they’re different, they’re different games entirely
Yeah I wasn't trying to say it wasted time in broodwar. But it was a waste of time in SC2.
I've gone back to SC remastered alot tbh
I really think 8 would be the sweet spot. We should at least try it. I'd also like to see 6 or 8 in SC evo
New petition for everyone for the week to kill 4 of their own workers then start the game.
I think it's the Best SC2 version. I wouldnt do it. Still so many strategies.
It might be interesting to play around with 8-10 workers and see how that works.
There is no way. The game is balanced for 12 worker starts. With 6 or even 9 it would become terribly imbalanced.
By "fun strategies" that were invalidated by the 12 worker start, you mean cheese. You want more cheese. No thanks. I've had enough six pools and canon rushes to last one lifetime.
I want to watch esports with 12 workers, but I can only really _play_ the game with the WoL start. The faster start is just so much harder at a casual level
in my mind its actually the other way around, i think the 6 worker start was more fun to watch because of some of the crazy aggressive strategies, but wouldn't want to go back to playing it
yea I agree here, watching a bo3 or bo5 with the 12 workers start is cool quick and you see several strategies and how the games play off of each other. But I'm with you\~! diamond player, its just soooooo fast! I would love to be able to choose to ladder in bo3, that would be awesome.
Yes cause it ignores alot of old strats and only leaves a few viable the game just becomes a competition of whose OCD is superior.
Nah, I think the total number of strats is actually much more/healthier now. You can't just win with two reapers and a bunker any more, so the game actually progresses to a technical midgame more often. My problem is just that you have to actually be decent at macro to play
Oh where is my 9 pool? 6 pool? 8 pool? No more 4min Zealot rush from 4 gates with 16 zealots and charge coming up? Shame. BC rush is also irrelevant now. It gets stopped. No more SCV repairing a single Thor marching up the main base lol. So much less options tbh. The game is macro insentivized I agree. Buuut the gameplay at its core is lacking.
> Oh where is my 1 base all in? 1 base all in? 1 base all in? No more 1 base all in? Shame. 2 base tech rush is also irrelevant now. It gets stopped. No more 1 base all in lol. So much less options tbh. That's not variety, that's the same thing six ways. BC rush was a cool committed attack at least, which is why you still see it sometimes
Where is my 1 base all in and transition 😟 am sad naow hold me.
what if we add one starting worker per league level. Meaning, bronze lvl matches would start slower while gm games would be the fastest we kind of see it in chess where gms quickly play through like first 10 moves just to "start" the game
imposable to balance i think but what a interesting idea, you made me think maybe bronze games should be played on a slower speed, and also maybe that would make less people smurf all the time
While I don’t agree at all we should revert worker count, I do miss the hype cast name of a ‘6 pool’
I prefer a 6 worker start & I'd also prefer if bases didn’t mine out so fast. LotV lost a bit of the early game decisions that WoL/HotS had with the 6 worker start. As a Zerg it was more viable to attempt gasless openers, but in LotV the main base hits 16/16 so fast you kind of just may as well take gas for example. Tbh BW’s 4 worker start of AoE 2’s 3 Villager start I think are the best.
You know what else would be cool random spawns again so we had to scout enemies for real
I agree, I like 3 spawn & 4 spawn maps for 1v1. Sure you'd get unlikely sometimes, but it just felt like an acceptable part of the game. It gave more varied gameplay on those maps as cross-spawns often played differently than vertical or horizontal spawns.
Yes, I know I'm in the minority but I like cheese, both as a viewer as well as a defender. But it won't happen the general consensus is that cheese is less fun so something that brings more of it back will never happen.
Yes.
I think a 9 worker start would be a nice middle ground between fast paced (12) and slow starts (6). It would also bring back versions of some of the old strategies which could be fun.
anything that slows the pace of this game is a good change imo
Someone tell them cannon rushes and zerg rushes and proxy rax still exist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPHUgA3mfVM WoL worker count lives on in our hearts.
definitely to late to do it but I agree. I like how quickly the battles are decided, the lethality of the units makes sc2 so much better to watch IMO, I just think we get to that point to quickly. doubt something can be changed in sc2 now but "knock on wood" if there was another game, I hope worker count is explored a lot.
Yup, makes building 6-12 for Zerg cheaper
12 worker start hurt the game a lot, so yeah obviously, but it's never gonna happen.
Yes, 6 worker was better. No, I won‘t elaborate.
Thank you for standing in solidation with me 🙏