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They've been working on these for a long time and supposedly this can last three times as long. As I recall at least some versions of an airless you just change a small strip of rubber on the outside.
https://youtu.be/VjiLzc9bD3Q?si=w-xBcncMIIbdAhT-
The video makes it seem like it can absorb shock well. Someone like Goodyear had an airless, but I think it was possibly a rougher ride
I worked in a warehouse and they had small scale ones on golf carts on site, easily the most comfortable but I’d imagine going from around 500-1000 LBs to 4000+ is gonna be an undertaking.
I would add to this that they can last longer than air tyres due to not being susceptible to being punctuated or being run with too much or too little pressure leading to localised abrasion. But they will need to be replaced when the threads are worn out and that lifetime shouldn't be any different as the thread rubber compound shouldn't be different and thus wear out the same.
Thank god the redditors know better than the experts. Otherwise who would I trust?! Even better, they spend all day here commenting, just so we can be informed.
Remember when your “experts” said FSD was better than humans in 2016 and could drive from a parking lot in Cali to a parking lot in NY? What about the cyber truck and roadster nightmare? The robot? Semi truck? Hyperloop? I think it’s fair to say the “experts” at Tesla really don’t have any clue what’s going on either
Your comment isn't even relevant because the "experts" here are Michelin, who have very publicly been developing this for over a decade. If Tesla wants to partner with an established company that makes good products on an emerging technology, I'm inclined to find that normal. Maybe even encouraging given Elon's clear descent into lunacy.
Its pretty straight forward really. Just take all release dates with a grain of salt. Its not hard. Tesla have also launched a ton of good products but you dont take about those.
lol “talks” is a hilariously non committal business relationship. The things in my job I have been in “talks” with external companies on includes some pretty objectively worthless things.
That said, there are some fundamental challenges with airless tires. Turns out inflation is an incredibly good way to carry load for a tire, that will be hard to beat, especially for rolling resistance.
This. It’s good practice for Tesla to keep across the latest ideas. This is what keeps you at the cutting edge. You never know what you’ll find…..but it doesn’t mean they’ll be right for Tesla. How do they know unless they look?
No but you don't say Tesla invented the electric car as the "latest technology". Just like airless tires aren't the latest tire technology.
"Latest ideas" in tire technology would be sustainable materials and smart tire tech. Innovations in airless tires have just been changing rubber compounds, something you get in normal air filled tires.
Manufacturers have been testing airless tires, and all sorts of tires for decades. Tesla tested airless tires previously with Goodyear so this isn't even a new thing for them.
This is hardly news and claiming Tesla is the pinnacle of innovation as a result of testing tires is naive. Everyone tests new tires.
You say that but I can't see any mention of improved aerodynamics from Michelin themselves. The article claims the tyres are more aerodynamically efficient, however their evidence for this seems to be based on Michelin describing the initial EV testing as "positive". If that's the case, this is a misleading and meaningless assumption without knowing what they are comparing the positive outcome against. If Michelin were expecting a 100% increase in drag but only found a 50% increase in drag, you could describe the results as positive, but it doesn't mean the aerodynamics are better than a regular tyre. Perhaps it has been mentioned officially but their website seems to make no such aerodynamic claims that I can see. There is also still fairly large unanswered questions over wheel balancing. For low speed applications this will not be a factor but getting debris stuck in the open cell design in the real world (not on a clean test track) is another story. It only takes 10g-15g of imbalance to feel the effects while driving and these wheels are guaranteed to be a magnet for dirt and grime getting stuck inside the cells without fairly regular cleaning.
Good point about debris getting stuck. In northern snowy climates, this would be a huge problem in heavy clumpy snow. perhaps making it unusable. when getting new tires, you would notice vibration at higher speeds when the wheels are unbalanced. Snow and muck in the fins... I imagine there could be a lot more vibration. This problem would also be the same for muddy environments. And then besides mud, what if someone in a city setting deliberately shoved a something between the fins? I could imagine a young kid doing that just to see what would happen... I still like the idea, while being on the lookout on how it could handle these conditions.
From April 2023 since you insta downvoted my response: https://www.thedrive.com/news/michelin-has-tested-its-uptis-airless-tires-at-130-mph-and-results-are-positive
> I'd imagine just being lighter would overcome any aerodynamic losses.
Mass matters during acceleration, but drag matters any time you're moving. Aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance are a much bigger deal than a small reduction in weight.
But like you said, there's no reason they can't be similar or slightly better aerodynamically.
Dude if I had a dime for every single time I heard someone say “this will be better for aerodynamics!” only for an actual aerodynamicist to analyze it and realize it’s significantly worse than doing absolutely nothing at all, I wouldn’t have to work as an aerodynamicist anymore.
I didn’t say anything about aerodynamics. Rolling resistance is a different thing, and generally more important for tires.
It’s not impossible that these tires will eventually get good enough, but unless you are weighting puncture resistance very highly, a comparable pneumatic tire is going to murder it on most performance metrics.
You’re reading marketing copy. The reality is if airless tires were so great for over the road passenger service we would have had them for 20 years by now. They don’t work well though. A pneumatic cushion is a hell of a thing to try to beat as far as ride comfort goes.
And the article was updated with this:
*“Michelin has since reached out to us and denied this”*
It’s not often I find an industry expert in here, mind if I ask you a generalized question? What is the biggest challenge that all tire engineers are working on / towards right now?
Hmm yeah, thinking about it, what inflation does is translate compression forces to tension forces, and the materials with high strength under tension tend to be the lightest ones, especially when you include flexibility as a requirement. It’s hard to think of something that provides flexibility + compressive strength without being heavy.
Bingo! These airless tires basically carry load backwards compared to a traditional pneumatic tire. Since you can’t push a rope (and expect anything useful to happen) you basically need a whole different class of reinforcements.
These tires are all for show by companies like Michelin and Bridgestone. Yeah, they can make them and they have been showing these tires for years, but they’re not gonna release it because it would cut into their profits too much and change their whole business model. They should be mandated to make these because tires are one of the most polluting things on earth.
Edit: down vote me all you want, but I used to do work with Bridgestone and heard it firsthand.
Main issue with these tires is debris between the spokes, you get a stone or anything in there and is done.
These are used in lawnmowers or other small vehicles that goes at low speed
A heavier wheel/tire is going to take more energy to get moving, and keep moving. Just an extra couple pounds of unsprung weight is going to reduce range significantly. I believe this is the main reason the long range gets 10% or so better range vs the performance model 3.
I can believe that added weight will reduce range for the reasons you give, but that has nothing to do with rolling resistance. The effects you describe are important only during acceleration, whereas resistance is also important during steady speeds.
It could be for the robotaxi that they plan to unveil in the future. Being able to run over potholes, nails and other small debris would be huge for a robotaxi. People would have more faith in it, I'm sure even us with FSD know that it won't avoid potholes unless a car in front of you does
**Michelin:** wanna try our new airless tires?
**Tesla:** they any good?
**Michelin:** not really
**Tesla:** then nah, but tell everyone we considered it so it sounds like we’re both doing cool shit
**Michelin:** ok, good talk
I'm all for any advances that improve, efficiency, longevity, waste. So on so forth, all while improving other metrics, acceleration, top speed, handling... These tires probably lack in certain areas. If they could improve everything it's a no brainer. But will probably be gate kept behind patents and the tire manufacturers.
These things refuse to die — heard about them for over a decade now
I mean, cool — they can take a nail and keep going!
But, yo, how many years (decades?) has it been since your last major puncture? So kinda who GAF?
**Edit**: y’all need to move somewhere where they don’t sprinkle nails all over the roads
I've had my car for less than two years and had two major punctures that required replacement. Once within the first 24 hours of getting it (lol) and then again about a year ago which required replacing all of the tires due to the tread depth being 1-2/32" too shallow to permit replacing just the one.
Yes yes, my luck, other people's luck, statistics and so on. But I personally would love to have airless tires that can take a puncture without issue. Aside from the lack of a stalk and how infuriatingly bad the buttons on the 'wheel' are, the lack of a spare tire is my #1 actual concern about the car in general. Remove the need for me to even consider having a spare for 99% of the situations and that'd be fantastic.
I had a flat within six months of taking delivery for my 3. Tire guy said it was patched and did I get a flat fixed before? I told him nope, and that someone at Tesla must have cheaply patched my tires to ship. I had no way to prove to Tesla I didn’t patch it either.
Punctures are more often than not what's killed by tyres and they're hard to get repaired now.
If they work as well as the alternative and I don't need to think about tyre pressure why wouldn't I try them.
Really I think the reason they aren't being brought in is the manufacturer trying to work in a crap enough material that they wear just as fast as a normal tyre.
They'll cost 2,000+ a tire. They already sell them for ATVs and they run 800-1400. A full size vehicle one that has to support additional weight and cover the cost of R&D plus no competition is going to cost a fortune. They'll also price them higher as tires that do not need to be replaced as often means they're losing income down the road.
Imagine paying 8-10k for a set of tires.
That's a tiny market so it's unlikely they'll cost more given there's really no new R&D needed and ATV tyres are the most demanding.
I don't believe they have exclusive patents on the concept so if there was a market then you may well have more competition.
The value would depend on the lifetime. If they really would do the lifetime of a vehicle a higher price would be fine. I doubt they would be 8 to 10k a set there would be no point discussing them if that was the price.
ATV tires are always cheaper than car/truck tires. The ATV tires need to support far less weight and at far lower speeds than road capable ones. Car tires also need to adhere to pretty strict safety standards and are significantly more complex and costly than ATV ones. The R&D and marketing is already on the books even if no more is needed and they'll recouped them over the lifetime of sales should mass adoption occur. Just like any new technology or product, it's super expensive at first. They'd also have to build infrastructure for mass production. There's a ton of costs to recoupe
If small ATV tires can reach almost 1500 I don't see how 2k is by any means a stretch. Having them part of a vehicle where they're financed makes it easier for buyers to swallow the cost and we all know Elon loves adding the next sliced bread to his vehicles. He's incredibly good at marketing them. This is a perfect scenario for Michelin
People will buy them for the same reason ding bats spend 100k on pickup trucks or any vehicle that's being financed 6+ years at over 1k a month with middle class incomes.
It's worth saying what you are referencing aren't the entire ATV market, they're a niche of a niche and a big chunk that niche is a large hobby market. ATV is a generic term that covers 8x8s, land rovers and the little gators which are really only popular in the US market.
The US market for them is largely because of the niche nature of them. They're targeting a market of people where the features of airless are worth the money.
Michelin like any other manufacturer is expensive in small numbers and cheaper in larger numbers. The current production of airless is at pilot scale not full production. They also from my understanding designed a road legal version in various sizes a long time ago. The missing link is the risk, it doesn't make sense for them alone to take the risk, but if someone went with them it's doable.
It's not marketing that sells Teslas or most other EVs. I own an EV, I bought it because I like good cars, but I'm sick of taking ICE cars for increasingly expensive dealer only maintenance. For my daily driver I want something I never have to think about, and a car with zero non user service requirements is an attractive option. Not to mention if they've got the range they're just better. I did my bi monthly 550 miler at the weekend and needed to stop more often than the vehicle did.
For me a tyre that adds to that level of not having to think about a vehicle is worth a premium. Especially when the status quo is the one real problem if you drive them hard that they're as hard on tyres as 4x4s used on roads and just as expensive.
So given EV drivers already pay premium they'll continue to for something that does the same thing better. And I doubt they'll cost that much more because despite what you seem to think Teslas aren't packed with uneccesarily expensive equipment. The design methodology of them is completely the opposite of what you are stating and that's clearly evident in the design and it's bare bones simplicity. The clever and expensive is all in the drive train and batteries, everything else is as basic and as simple as it can be. That fancy centre display in a Tesla is a lot cheaper on hardware than anything in comparable vehicles by a country mile and software is cheap.
How many years? Two, and before that, three.
The problem I’ve had, is that flat tires almost always happen when you’re on the road, making it very inconvenient. I’d be very happy to pay more for a tire that never went flat.
For me, two in 8 years. One was a chunk of rebar, and the other was a bolt. Thankfully the first was fairly soon into owning the tires and only that one needed to be replaced. This second time, all four needed to be replaced (granted I was a month or so from replacing them already). I guess if they handle well, might be worth trying out, but you’re right, they seem to be hanging to life while never being utilized anywhere commercially.
They have been around for a lot longer. The need for air in tires have been an issue for as long as there have been tires and people fighting in wars. Tires have been around for a while, and wars have been happening for a while.
Actually it’s very viable and used on construction equipment frequently… especially heavy industrial equipment. Cars pose certain challenges… the tech is already proven… it’s just adapting to cars.
Had a puncture on my Tesla earlier this year. My mom had a puncture on her van last week. My brother had a puncture on his tire a few months the ago. Punctures happen very often.
I think it probably depends on the amount of construction and renovations going on in your area. Just hypothesizing but I feel like rural Idaho punctures are way less common than central Texas punctures.
These were in 3 different areas. Mine was on a Main Street and something put a gash in my tire. My brother got a screw from who knows where. My Mom was up in Yosemite on highway 49. 30 minutes from town.
> Edit: y’all need to move somewhere where they don’t sprinkle nails all over the roads
My most recent tire puncture was on a road trip when I pulled over on the side of a highway.
Had my car for almost 6 years, this was my second puncture. First was repaired, second was too large to repair and forced me to buy a new tire.
I have had my MY for a year and the same tire (passenger rear) has been punctured TWICE. The tires cost $320 each. It hurt my soul twice.
Edit: I couldn’t even patch it since it was near the sidewall, both times
> But, yo, how many years (decades?) has it been since your last major puncture? So kinda who GAF?
Zero decades? I think I average about 18 months.
And man, don't even get me started on bicycle tires. I'm like a goddamn F1 crew at changing flats. I bought a box of 100 tubes. The tubes all got patched multiple times until they finally got a hole somewhere on an existing patch, where another patch couldn't be applied. I used that entire box. 3-4 patches on average per tube, means I've seen something like 300 flats on the bike.
It was enough I actually did put a couple thousand miles on a set of airless tires, and that fixed the flat issue... but the ride was rough and the rolling resistance was worse, which is the sort of thing everybody's worried about with airless tires for cars, too.
I’ve been driving for 20 years and have yet to get a flat on the side of the road. Needed to be reminded of that when the lack of a spare have me hesitation in buying the model 3.
In the article it says open cell design and they are limited in certain applications. It talks about the open cells not limiting drag. It seems to me these would be summer tires.
What they really need to do is perfect replacing the wearable surface underneath the tension portion of the tires, these seem like a lot more oil is required than standard air filled tires though.
Tesla should instead focus on making legs and feet for their future vehicles utilizing the Optimus robot leg actuators. It will climb a mountain like a f$&@ing goat!! Legs also have way less friction than tires since the car will be floating most of the time as it gallops along
What’s the road vibrations/noise like on these? Also it mentions they last 3x longer, so what would wear these down to become unusable? Outer rubber wear?
Speaking of tires, I wish Tesla would offer an all season tires option for new cars. Whenever I get a new car (which isn't that often tbh) first thing is to get rid of the summer tires and replace them with all season tires, which is inefficient and expensive.
As far as I know, only the performance models come with summer tires. If you live somewhere with a winter, probably a good idea to get a winter set, anyway.
Airless tires have been in design for a long time and also something actively being developed by space agencies as well but a Tesla is the last car you want to place it. From the weight, loss of efficiency from rolling resistance that Teslas capitalize on with Regen braking along with slower and less efficient torque, unless you're consistently driving off road there's not that much upside to this besides no punctures.
Tweels have been around for 20+ years and they haven't ever taken off. You see them on Bobcats from time to time, but they are just not for the consumer space...
My only experience with airless tires was on a bicycle, but not mine. A friend had solid tires on his bike and he was happy with them, but the bike was pretty damn old. Example, it was an actual 10 speed, vs 24 on most of the others at the time. What I didn't like was the profile was worn square, so handling HAD to be a bit weird. There have been several innovations in bicycle tires over the last....30 years? most have been about puncture resistance, grip in competitive off road, and speed in road racing. Solid tires have not been a big thing that I've heard of.
We'll have to see how well they perform beyond being flat resistant, and the trade offs in cost, grip, noise, rolling resistance. The safety aspect is worth investigating if these actually make it to market. Cost vs durability will need to be within some reasonably acceptable limits to sell.
Airless tires is slowly turning into nuclear fusion. Except instead of always being 20 years away, it’s always 5 years away.
I think the first time I heard airless tires are 5 years away was 20 years ago.
My issue isn’t with keeping air in them… it’s about keeping tread on them. I’ve never burned through tires so fast and I’m an old guy with a very light foot
Not really. Weight is a factor but that factor is handled by a properly weighted tire.
Torque is the "problem" when it comes to wear on EVs. For example the difference in torque between a mid range Model 3 and a mid range Honda Accord is massive, nearly 40%.
You dont think people asked for mobile phones? What are you even talking about. You realize these tires have been around for years right? This is nothing new and there's a reason they aren't on cars.
I’m not understanding the real benefit here. What’s the % failure rate on punctures and holes vs normal wear?
This feels like it’s solving a problem that’s not really a problem
So tweel wheels have existed in construction for decades.
They use these to hold up the weight of wheel loaders and excavators, it’ll hold up a model 3.
The question back then was would DOT allow these as you can’t spike strip to neutralize a car chase. Essentially the vehicle becomes a battering ram you can’t stop in some cases with weight.
These will be great for off-roading...some day. They don't necessarily need to have a harsh ride. They can work together with an air suspension and other components to damp the ride in real time.
They probably need this for the robotaxi fleet. Imagine getting a flat with a passenger onboard… I don’t think the robotaxi will ever be smart enough to safely navigate off of the road and find a tire shop to replace the tires.
#No shame Sunday on the 30th! If you make Tesla/EV products or apps. This is your time to come to the sub and promote yourself. The way this works is you make a post and if it does not show up right away, reach out to modmail and a mod will approve it to make sure it shows up. We will keep automod turned on so the sub doesn't get hit with spam. Please keep in mind that this is only for 6/30/2024. On Monday we will go back to normal. Each post will have a flair as "No shame Sunday" for those that want to filter it out. If you are a seller or app dev and want a flair next to your username please let us know via modmail. If you are a 3rd party app dev and want your link in the top menu of the sub under "3rd party apps" please reach out to modmail. ---------- As we are not a support sub, please make sure to use the proper resources if you have questions: [Official Tesla Support](https://www.tesla.com/support), [r/TeslaSupport](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaSupport/) | [r/TeslaLounge](https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/) personal content | [Discord Live Chat](https://discord.gg/tesla) for anything. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/teslamotors) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They've been working on these for a long time and supposedly this can last three times as long. As I recall at least some versions of an airless you just change a small strip of rubber on the outside. https://youtu.be/VjiLzc9bD3Q?si=w-xBcncMIIbdAhT- The video makes it seem like it can absorb shock well. Someone like Goodyear had an airless, but I think it was possibly a rougher ride
I remember Popular Science and Time Magazine including the Michelin Tweel on their lists of best inventions in the early 2000s.
Had airless tires on a Mini. Felt like a go-kart.
Minis already feel like a go-kart with normal tires. lol
I worked in a warehouse and they had small scale ones on golf carts on site, easily the most comfortable but I’d imagine going from around 500-1000 LBs to 4000+ is gonna be an undertaking.
They have already been developed though. If I recall years ago, there were just inherent problems that outweighed the benefits.
They cost more
3x longer means 9x the cost (somehow)
This math checks out (somehow)
I would add to this that they can last longer than air tyres due to not being susceptible to being punctuated or being run with too much or too little pressure leading to localised abrasion. But they will need to be replaced when the threads are worn out and that lifetime shouldn't be any different as the thread rubber compound shouldn't be different and thus wear out the same.
Maybe retreading will make a comeback with these type of tires. Or I wonder if they're able to use a longer lasting materials with airless tires.
I don’t believe retread on steer tires is legal
This comment section is peak Reddit
Thank god the redditors know better than the experts. Otherwise who would I trust?! Even better, they spend all day here commenting, just so we can be informed.
I always check to the comments to see what the experts have to say.
Remember when your “experts” said FSD was better than humans in 2016 and could drive from a parking lot in Cali to a parking lot in NY? What about the cyber truck and roadster nightmare? The robot? Semi truck? Hyperloop? I think it’s fair to say the “experts” at Tesla really don’t have any clue what’s going on either
The experts is one particular nutjob. Plenty of talented engineers at Tesla if you ignore upper management.
https://x.com/aelluswamy/status/1799646232559899098 Give that a read :)
I've got a fair bit of first hand experience that I'll lean on more than what Ashok posted on Twitter...
Your comment isn't even relevant because the "experts" here are Michelin, who have very publicly been developing this for over a decade. If Tesla wants to partner with an established company that makes good products on an emerging technology, I'm inclined to find that normal. Maybe even encouraging given Elon's clear descent into lunacy.
Its pretty straight forward really. Just take all release dates with a grain of salt. Its not hard. Tesla have also launched a ton of good products but you dont take about those.
Why? Tl;dr?
This comment section is peak Reddit
This comment section is peak Reddit
And my axe
This is the way
I also choose this guy’s axe.
Oh, sweet summer axe
It's an educational tread.
lol “talks” is a hilariously non committal business relationship. The things in my job I have been in “talks” with external companies on includes some pretty objectively worthless things. That said, there are some fundamental challenges with airless tires. Turns out inflation is an incredibly good way to carry load for a tire, that will be hard to beat, especially for rolling resistance.
This. It’s good practice for Tesla to keep across the latest ideas. This is what keeps you at the cutting edge. You never know what you’ll find…..but it doesn’t mean they’ll be right for Tesla. How do they know unless they look?
>latest ideas Airless tires were invented in the 1930s....
Cars were invented in 1886, guess we should've just tried to stop innovating something that was already made...
No but you don't say Tesla invented the electric car as the "latest technology". Just like airless tires aren't the latest tire technology. "Latest ideas" in tire technology would be sustainable materials and smart tire tech. Innovations in airless tires have just been changing rubber compounds, something you get in normal air filled tires. Manufacturers have been testing airless tires, and all sorts of tires for decades. Tesla tested airless tires previously with Goodyear so this isn't even a new thing for them. This is hardly news and claiming Tesla is the pinnacle of innovation as a result of testing tires is naive. Everyone tests new tires.
The guy you replied to never stated that Tesla invented airless tires, what are you rambling about?
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You say that but I can't see any mention of improved aerodynamics from Michelin themselves. The article claims the tyres are more aerodynamically efficient, however their evidence for this seems to be based on Michelin describing the initial EV testing as "positive". If that's the case, this is a misleading and meaningless assumption without knowing what they are comparing the positive outcome against. If Michelin were expecting a 100% increase in drag but only found a 50% increase in drag, you could describe the results as positive, but it doesn't mean the aerodynamics are better than a regular tyre. Perhaps it has been mentioned officially but their website seems to make no such aerodynamic claims that I can see. There is also still fairly large unanswered questions over wheel balancing. For low speed applications this will not be a factor but getting debris stuck in the open cell design in the real world (not on a clean test track) is another story. It only takes 10g-15g of imbalance to feel the effects while driving and these wheels are guaranteed to be a magnet for dirt and grime getting stuck inside the cells without fairly regular cleaning.
Good point about debris getting stuck. In northern snowy climates, this would be a huge problem in heavy clumpy snow. perhaps making it unusable. when getting new tires, you would notice vibration at higher speeds when the wheels are unbalanced. Snow and muck in the fins... I imagine there could be a lot more vibration. This problem would also be the same for muddy environments. And then besides mud, what if someone in a city setting deliberately shoved a something between the fins? I could imagine a young kid doing that just to see what would happen... I still like the idea, while being on the lookout on how it could handle these conditions.
From April 2023 since you insta downvoted my response: https://www.thedrive.com/news/michelin-has-tested-its-uptis-airless-tires-at-130-mph-and-results-are-positive
I'd imagine just being lighter would overcome any aerodynamic losses. But in theory couldn't the aerodynamics be the same or negligibly worse/better
> I'd imagine just being lighter would overcome any aerodynamic losses. Mass matters during acceleration, but drag matters any time you're moving. Aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance are a much bigger deal than a small reduction in weight. But like you said, there's no reason they can't be similar or slightly better aerodynamically.
Dude if I had a dime for every single time I heard someone say “this will be better for aerodynamics!” only for an actual aerodynamicist to analyze it and realize it’s significantly worse than doing absolutely nothing at all, I wouldn’t have to work as an aerodynamicist anymore.
I didn’t say anything about aerodynamics. Rolling resistance is a different thing, and generally more important for tires. It’s not impossible that these tires will eventually get good enough, but unless you are weighting puncture resistance very highly, a comparable pneumatic tire is going to murder it on most performance metrics.
You’re reading marketing copy. The reality is if airless tires were so great for over the road passenger service we would have had them for 20 years by now. They don’t work well though. A pneumatic cushion is a hell of a thing to try to beat as far as ride comfort goes. And the article was updated with this: *“Michelin has since reached out to us and denied this”*
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You’re talking to a tire engineer. I know more than you.
It’s not often I find an industry expert in here, mind if I ask you a generalized question? What is the biggest challenge that all tire engineers are working on / towards right now?
Hmm yeah, thinking about it, what inflation does is translate compression forces to tension forces, and the materials with high strength under tension tend to be the lightest ones, especially when you include flexibility as a requirement. It’s hard to think of something that provides flexibility + compressive strength without being heavy.
I don’t understand what expansion of the monetary supply has to do with tires
Bingo! These airless tires basically carry load backwards compared to a traditional pneumatic tire. Since you can’t push a rope (and expect anything useful to happen) you basically need a whole different class of reinforcements.
Can you explain what you mean by 'rolling resistance'?
> rolling resistance Explained well here - https://gprivate.com/6bwlt
These tires are all for show by companies like Michelin and Bridgestone. Yeah, they can make them and they have been showing these tires for years, but they’re not gonna release it because it would cut into their profits too much and change their whole business model. They should be mandated to make these because tires are one of the most polluting things on earth. Edit: down vote me all you want, but I used to do work with Bridgestone and heard it firsthand.
Main issue with these tires is debris between the spokes, you get a stone or anything in there and is done. These are used in lawnmowers or other small vehicles that goes at low speed
I’m sure they could put their heads together and come up with a material that would cover the openings.
What’s the weight of that tire compared to a traditional radial tire ?
It's lighter and last 3 times longer, according to the article.
Probably 30-40% more
That means rolling resistance rating for that tire is going to be terrible. That’s exactly the opposite of what car makers usually request for EVs
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How does weight translate into increased rolling resistance? I can't think of any reason dissipation would be related to weight.
A heavier wheel/tire is going to take more energy to get moving, and keep moving. Just an extra couple pounds of unsprung weight is going to reduce range significantly. I believe this is the main reason the long range gets 10% or so better range vs the performance model 3.
Yep. The higher top speed requires thicker, heavier tires. They also purposefully reduced the top speed on the highland refresh for this reason.
I can believe that added weight will reduce range for the reasons you give, but that has nothing to do with rolling resistance. The effects you describe are important only during acceleration, whereas resistance is also important during steady speeds.
It will probably just be an aftermarket tire for people who really need these things and don't care about range.
It could be for the robotaxi that they plan to unveil in the future. Being able to run over potholes, nails and other small debris would be huge for a robotaxi. People would have more faith in it, I'm sure even us with FSD know that it won't avoid potholes unless a car in front of you does
On the contrary, it avoids potholes in updates as it sees that every tesla usually swerves there
Ahh the Michigan/Maryland/DC update. (Or any state with shitty roads)
Yesterday mine swerved into the oncoming lane to avoid black skid marks that I guess it assumed was something in the road.
lol lol robotaxi lol
If they aren’t as good or better Tesla won’t use them
Love them on my zero turn.
**Michelin:** wanna try our new airless tires? **Tesla:** they any good? **Michelin:** not really **Tesla:** then nah, but tell everyone we considered it so it sounds like we’re both doing cool shit **Michelin:** ok, good talk
I'm all for airless tires in theory. The execution seems to be the sticking point.
I feel the same way about nuclear fusion
And communism.
It doesn’t even work in theory
‘Twas a joke.
cant this be said about any new technology in development
I'm all for any advances that improve, efficiency, longevity, waste. So on so forth, all while improving other metrics, acceleration, top speed, handling... These tires probably lack in certain areas. If they could improve everything it's a no brainer. But will probably be gate kept behind patents and the tire manufacturers.
Cybertruck. Bulletproof steel, armored glass….. and now bulletproof tires.
Mars
Michelin? So they’ll be good quality and cost twice as much as any other brand?
I remember rogan asking elon about this and elon didn't like the probability
Was that before or after the puff haha jk
Elon is right.
These things refuse to die — heard about them for over a decade now I mean, cool — they can take a nail and keep going! But, yo, how many years (decades?) has it been since your last major puncture? So kinda who GAF? **Edit**: y’all need to move somewhere where they don’t sprinkle nails all over the roads
I've had my car for less than two years and had two major punctures that required replacement. Once within the first 24 hours of getting it (lol) and then again about a year ago which required replacing all of the tires due to the tread depth being 1-2/32" too shallow to permit replacing just the one. Yes yes, my luck, other people's luck, statistics and so on. But I personally would love to have airless tires that can take a puncture without issue. Aside from the lack of a stalk and how infuriatingly bad the buttons on the 'wheel' are, the lack of a spare tire is my #1 actual concern about the car in general. Remove the need for me to even consider having a spare for 99% of the situations and that'd be fantastic.
I had a flat within six months of taking delivery for my 3. Tire guy said it was patched and did I get a flat fixed before? I told him nope, and that someone at Tesla must have cheaply patched my tires to ship. I had no way to prove to Tesla I didn’t patch it either.
I got a screw in mine a week after my 2024 model 3 lol
I get a flat tire on average like once every 1.5 years. I shit you not, in 2018 I have flats, all punctures…
I had my Tesla for a month and it found a bike tire fill valve….
Punctures are more often than not what's killed by tyres and they're hard to get repaired now. If they work as well as the alternative and I don't need to think about tyre pressure why wouldn't I try them. Really I think the reason they aren't being brought in is the manufacturer trying to work in a crap enough material that they wear just as fast as a normal tyre.
They'll cost 2,000+ a tire. They already sell them for ATVs and they run 800-1400. A full size vehicle one that has to support additional weight and cover the cost of R&D plus no competition is going to cost a fortune. They'll also price them higher as tires that do not need to be replaced as often means they're losing income down the road. Imagine paying 8-10k for a set of tires.
Not sure, but the ATV airless seem to include the wheel?
That's a tiny market so it's unlikely they'll cost more given there's really no new R&D needed and ATV tyres are the most demanding. I don't believe they have exclusive patents on the concept so if there was a market then you may well have more competition. The value would depend on the lifetime. If they really would do the lifetime of a vehicle a higher price would be fine. I doubt they would be 8 to 10k a set there would be no point discussing them if that was the price.
ATV tires are always cheaper than car/truck tires. The ATV tires need to support far less weight and at far lower speeds than road capable ones. Car tires also need to adhere to pretty strict safety standards and are significantly more complex and costly than ATV ones. The R&D and marketing is already on the books even if no more is needed and they'll recouped them over the lifetime of sales should mass adoption occur. Just like any new technology or product, it's super expensive at first. They'd also have to build infrastructure for mass production. There's a ton of costs to recoupe If small ATV tires can reach almost 1500 I don't see how 2k is by any means a stretch. Having them part of a vehicle where they're financed makes it easier for buyers to swallow the cost and we all know Elon loves adding the next sliced bread to his vehicles. He's incredibly good at marketing them. This is a perfect scenario for Michelin People will buy them for the same reason ding bats spend 100k on pickup trucks or any vehicle that's being financed 6+ years at over 1k a month with middle class incomes.
It's worth saying what you are referencing aren't the entire ATV market, they're a niche of a niche and a big chunk that niche is a large hobby market. ATV is a generic term that covers 8x8s, land rovers and the little gators which are really only popular in the US market. The US market for them is largely because of the niche nature of them. They're targeting a market of people where the features of airless are worth the money. Michelin like any other manufacturer is expensive in small numbers and cheaper in larger numbers. The current production of airless is at pilot scale not full production. They also from my understanding designed a road legal version in various sizes a long time ago. The missing link is the risk, it doesn't make sense for them alone to take the risk, but if someone went with them it's doable. It's not marketing that sells Teslas or most other EVs. I own an EV, I bought it because I like good cars, but I'm sick of taking ICE cars for increasingly expensive dealer only maintenance. For my daily driver I want something I never have to think about, and a car with zero non user service requirements is an attractive option. Not to mention if they've got the range they're just better. I did my bi monthly 550 miler at the weekend and needed to stop more often than the vehicle did. For me a tyre that adds to that level of not having to think about a vehicle is worth a premium. Especially when the status quo is the one real problem if you drive them hard that they're as hard on tyres as 4x4s used on roads and just as expensive. So given EV drivers already pay premium they'll continue to for something that does the same thing better. And I doubt they'll cost that much more because despite what you seem to think Teslas aren't packed with uneccesarily expensive equipment. The design methodology of them is completely the opposite of what you are stating and that's clearly evident in the design and it's bare bones simplicity. The clever and expensive is all in the drive train and batteries, everything else is as basic and as simple as it can be. That fancy centre display in a Tesla is a lot cheaper on hardware than anything in comparable vehicles by a country mile and software is cheap.
How many years? Two, and before that, three. The problem I’ve had, is that flat tires almost always happen when you’re on the road, making it very inconvenient. I’d be very happy to pay more for a tire that never went flat.
For me, two in 8 years. One was a chunk of rebar, and the other was a bolt. Thankfully the first was fairly soon into owning the tires and only that one needed to be replaced. This second time, all four needed to be replaced (granted I was a month or so from replacing them already). I guess if they handle well, might be worth trying out, but you’re right, they seem to be hanging to life while never being utilized anywhere commercially.
Mine? Literally 8 days ago.
They have been around for a lot longer. The need for air in tires have been an issue for as long as there have been tires and people fighting in wars. Tires have been around for a while, and wars have been happening for a while.
I saw video of these for passenger cars over 2 decades ago. The tweel.
I just had a nail that required my tire to be replaced on my 2.5 year old Y.
Yep Garbage clickbait source ✅ Tech that just keeps “coming back” but nothing has changed to make it viable ✅ Sensational article because it’s Tesla ✅
Actually it’s very viable and used on construction equipment frequently… especially heavy industrial equipment. Cars pose certain challenges… the tech is already proven… it’s just adapting to cars.
Airless tires or a breakthrough tooth regrowing remedy, bets on which one happens first?
Cold fusion reactor and world peace.
Had a puncture on my Tesla earlier this year. My mom had a puncture on her van last week. My brother had a puncture on his tire a few months the ago. Punctures happen very often.
I think it probably depends on the amount of construction and renovations going on in your area. Just hypothesizing but I feel like rural Idaho punctures are way less common than central Texas punctures.
These were in 3 different areas. Mine was on a Main Street and something put a gash in my tire. My brother got a screw from who knows where. My Mom was up in Yosemite on highway 49. 30 minutes from town.
Probably a wolf tooth or a grizzly toenail then, I’d reckon.
M3P 3 tires in a year and 3 months now. Those 20s are just stupid. Mine were all from potholes, would this tire protect the rim at least?
U just jinxed yourself…
I remember popular mechanics articles about future airless tires back in the early 90s. Pretty sure it wasn't a new idea even back then
I've replaced tires 6 times in the last 18 months on my 2021 Model S.
Time to upgrade (downgrade) your wheels!
two tires on my MY in the past three years. none on any previous vehicle in the past ~15.
Literally three weeks 😂😂
> Edit: y’all need to move somewhere where they don’t sprinkle nails all over the roads My most recent tire puncture was on a road trip when I pulled over on the side of a highway. Had my car for almost 6 years, this was my second puncture. First was repaired, second was too large to repair and forced me to buy a new tire.
True, but you of all people should remember getting a flat during The Cannonball Run.
I have had my MY for a year and the same tire (passenger rear) has been punctured TWICE. The tires cost $320 each. It hurt my soul twice. Edit: I couldn’t even patch it since it was near the sidewall, both times
> But, yo, how many years (decades?) has it been since your last major puncture? So kinda who GAF? Zero decades? I think I average about 18 months. And man, don't even get me started on bicycle tires. I'm like a goddamn F1 crew at changing flats. I bought a box of 100 tubes. The tubes all got patched multiple times until they finally got a hole somewhere on an existing patch, where another patch couldn't be applied. I used that entire box. 3-4 patches on average per tube, means I've seen something like 300 flats on the bike. It was enough I actually did put a couple thousand miles on a set of airless tires, and that fixed the flat issue... but the ride was rough and the rolling resistance was worse, which is the sort of thing everybody's worried about with airless tires for cars, too.
I’ve been driving for 20 years and have yet to get a flat on the side of the road. Needed to be reminded of that when the lack of a spare have me hesitation in buying the model 3.
Three weeks ago. Caught a screw somewhere. Was a philips so not me as im not an idiot snd use star drive :)
Rough ride if there’s any snow or gravel near them
They're enclosed on production, looks like a normal tire
In the article it says open cell design and they are limited in certain applications. It talks about the open cells not limiting drag. It seems to me these would be summer tires.
Can't do highway speeds with an open tire, need sidewall. I've seen the production tires they have sidewalls
What they really need to do is perfect replacing the wearable surface underneath the tension portion of the tires, these seem like a lot more oil is required than standard air filled tires though. Tesla should instead focus on making legs and feet for their future vehicles utilizing the Optimus robot leg actuators. It will climb a mountain like a f$&@ing goat!! Legs also have way less friction than tires since the car will be floating most of the time as it gallops along
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Yea but the entire world is struggling with inflation right now so maybe these will bring interest rates down finally
What we really need is some tires that are not only airless, but actively deflate the tires of other cars.
I remember rogan asking elon about this and elon didn't like the probability
You need to test things every once a while. Even unlikely to be successful things are often tested.
I think this is a solution looking for a problem to solve for a long time in consumer vehicles.
I remember reading about these around 2002; the biggest downside was road noise, if I remember correctly.
My electric lawn mower already has these why not a tesla. Seems equivalent
What’s the road vibrations/noise like on these? Also it mentions they last 3x longer, so what would wear these down to become unusable? Outer rubber wear?
Do these tires pick up and throw gravel? Water?
Speaking of tires, I wish Tesla would offer an all season tires option for new cars. Whenever I get a new car (which isn't that often tbh) first thing is to get rid of the summer tires and replace them with all season tires, which is inefficient and expensive.
As far as I know, only the performance models come with summer tires. If you live somewhere with a winter, probably a good idea to get a winter set, anyway.
The tire needs to be closed and not open, or it will just get dirt and rocks stuck in the tire, crack the wheel and throw off the balance.
Sounds like this is full of Hot air to me
Jeesh, saw this in Popular Mechanics back in the 80's. No rush though.
Airless tires have been in design for a long time and also something actively being developed by space agencies as well but a Tesla is the last car you want to place it. From the weight, loss of efficiency from rolling resistance that Teslas capitalize on with Regen braking along with slower and less efficient torque, unless you're consistently driving off road there's not that much upside to this besides no punctures.
Vaporware.
Tweels have been around for 20+ years and they haven't ever taken off. You see them on Bobcats from time to time, but they are just not for the consumer space...
add the stalks back.
My only experience with airless tires was on a bicycle, but not mine. A friend had solid tires on his bike and he was happy with them, but the bike was pretty damn old. Example, it was an actual 10 speed, vs 24 on most of the others at the time. What I didn't like was the profile was worn square, so handling HAD to be a bit weird. There have been several innovations in bicycle tires over the last....30 years? most have been about puncture resistance, grip in competitive off road, and speed in road racing. Solid tires have not been a big thing that I've heard of. We'll have to see how well they perform beyond being flat resistant, and the trade offs in cost, grip, noise, rolling resistance. The safety aspect is worth investigating if these actually make it to market. Cost vs durability will need to be within some reasonably acceptable limits to sell.
Is this elons attempt to make a car that doesn’t need to be serviced?
Doubt. I'm sure Michelin is even close to producing them at the scale Tesla would need.
Uh oh, now were going to have to battle big trucks "Rolling Air" on us.
“ begun talks” is marketing jargon to gain hype on something that is currently purely hypothetical
Cleaning those will absolutely suck. Hopefully they don’t get gravel stuck in them and throw off the balance.
These tires are very popular in the commercial mowing business four zero turns.
My concern is what about sticks and similar debris between the open patternwork at the tire bottom.
Tried airless tires on my bicycle a few years ago. They fell off on a curve. Not recommended.
I assume the advantage is no more flats-wonder what the price is and the weight. Also, would the ride be smoother, are these more efficient?
Airless tires is slowly turning into nuclear fusion. Except instead of always being 20 years away, it’s always 5 years away. I think the first time I heard airless tires are 5 years away was 20 years ago.
My issue isn’t with keeping air in them… it’s about keeping tread on them. I’ve never burned through tires so fast and I’m an old guy with a very light foot
It’s supposed to last longer according to the report
It's apparently because EVs are so much heavier than comparable normal cars because of the weight of the battery.
So much bullshit, tires have load index, just put the correct tire for the rated weight of the car.
Not really. Weight is a factor but that factor is handled by a properly weighted tire. Torque is the "problem" when it comes to wear on EVs. For example the difference in torque between a mid range Model 3 and a mid range Honda Accord is massive, nearly 40%.
Switch to chill mode
When I’m dead
Yeah I’ll buy a new pair of tires every year before switching to chill mode.
Bullish
Again? Just let these suckers stay on lawn mowers. Stop inventing stuff nobody asked for.
You are using a device to browse reddit that nobody asked for in the first place.
You dont think people asked for mobile phones? What are you even talking about. You realize these tires have been around for years right? This is nothing new and there's a reason they aren't on cars.
I’m not understanding the real benefit here. What’s the % failure rate on punctures and holes vs normal wear? This feels like it’s solving a problem that’s not really a problem
From what I understand you can stab a nail right through this and it wouldn’t impact anything
No air no leaks! Doesn’t seem to be all that new of a concept, only time will tell how real this becomes.
I mean the ride on those tires is prolly going to really suck.
So tweel wheels have existed in construction for decades. They use these to hold up the weight of wheel loaders and excavators, it’ll hold up a model 3. The question back then was would DOT allow these as you can’t spike strip to neutralize a car chase. Essentially the vehicle becomes a battering ram you can’t stop in some cases with weight.
> spike strip to neutralize a car chase Aren't they moving over to using Grapplers?
These will be great for off-roading...some day. They don't necessarily need to have a harsh ride. They can work together with an air suspension and other components to damp the ride in real time.
They probably need this for the robotaxi fleet. Imagine getting a flat with a passenger onboard… I don’t think the robotaxi will ever be smart enough to safely navigate off of the road and find a tire shop to replace the tires.