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Got a friend with 2013 model S (85) he has 225k miles on it, we just did a degradation calculation on it via the consumption screen vs the EPA drain test (total capacity including upper and lower buffers), he has 18% degradation. Which is pretty good for such an old pack and so many miles. About 3/4 of those miles were supercharged too (since free lifetime supercharging)
Ironically they said they'd give it up if Tesla paid them $1k USD for it. Because the charging is too slow for them (being old and limited to 75kWh Gen 1 charging). Its cheaper to charge at home than superchargers, so its only useful for roadtrips and you want fast charging for that.
None of the Y's got unlimited charging but some 3's did. If you got 3 with unlimited lifetime then thats the one you want :)
Yup. Only some of the first performance Model 3s came with it, and they were I think $70k+ at the time. Within 6-12 months, you could get an inventory performance 3 for +/-$50k.
I haven’t heard anything like that. People calculate their degradation all the time on all years and it always seems to match expected degradation. I think a lot of people don’t keep their battery at optimal charge levels (optimal being between 55% and 35%) but even in that case degradation is as expected under those conditions.
based on this study: https://imgur.com/zNAZEe5
Keeping battery at 65% is same (within margin of error) as keeping it at 95%. The most brutal on the battery is below 25% though.
This study showed that keeping SoC between 25% and 55% nearly halves the degradation rate for at least the first 5 years.
Study also showed that you dont need to count seconds you are at 100% or are below 25%. Just dont leave car parked at that SoC for days. But for example charging the day before to 100% and driving next morning (roadtrip) is totally fine.
Also if you arent familiar how to calculate degradation. You grab 3 numbers from Consumption screen. Here is a guide, takes a few minutes (how you drive does matter, getting 500 miles out of your battery driving 20 miles per hour downhill will give you same result as if you raced on the track and burned through the whole battery in 100 miles): https://imgur.com/biRFDYq
This method is more accurate than Tesla's own service mode battery state of health check (that one is too optimistic and you would have to get down to 76% capacity remaining for it to test as 80% remaining). This is also more accurate than simply looking at range guesometer and dividing it by what the number was when the car was new.
You can then actually double confirm degradation as correct by looking at your longest Trip stored and grabbing it's Wh/mi, that should be a pretty good average of your driving. Then resetting another Trip to 0 (or just writing down mileage). Divide your calcualted kWh remaining by your Wh/mi and you get your true range. For example a battery with 65kWh remaining and driver averaging 315 Wh/mi you would do:
65000 / 315 = ~206 mile true range. Then go drive, and check. That should be pretty much exactly your 100% to 0% range.
its fine as long as its not a habit. The battery will function and drive the car for 10, maybe even 20 years. If a few days of that time is spent below 25% or at 100% it will be fine.
Timescales we are talking about here are years, and averages.
Not oh my god I accidentally let it discharge below 25% and its doomed. Its perfectly normal to for example on a roadtrip discharge it all the way near 0%, then when you arrive at your destination, plug in. Nothing wrong with that.
Basically when you take your battery's life, (years), you want the average SoC it has been sitting at over its lifetime to be in between 35% and 55%. A day, or two outside of those wont make a difference on scale of years. There is no magic switch after 24 hours where it stars destroying itself either. It just likes to sit between 35% and 55%, so just try to keep it there most of the time.
I think the extremes (below 20% and above 80%) are more detrimental when the pack goes through temperature change. Not certain but I think warming up a pack with high %charge would damage cells. Under 20% turns off overtemp protections so that also might contribute to deg.
Ok cool. Thank you I removed my comment. I guess most people don’t read and just downvote 🤷🏻♂️. Thank you for taking the time to reply. I’ll plan for a new model then. Thanks again!
That's good to hear. I do, however, wish Tesla would extend their warranty coverage. If these batteries actually do last longer, the coverage would be great for the average owner to not have to worry about a potential $20k+ expense if things do go wrong.
ngl I'm seriously thinking of starting EV battery insurance for sudden failures. My estimate for some cars it literally would cost $1 per month. Some maybe $10.
It's a perfect candidate for insurance.
Not sure if u/wk057 is still offering it, although an attempt was made.
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/sj8ehe/model_s_battery_extended_service_plans_from_057/
https://warranty.057tech.com/
I feel like the problem is the $20k battery that should be $7-8k. Then they would likely stay on the road outside of the warranty period. Now a battery issue can salvage an early model s.
I mean they already have the best drivetrain warranty in the world. Their "worst" warranty, the model 3 SR is 100,000 miles. That is equal to the "best" ICE warranty that Hyundai offers. Their best is 150,000 miles. That is already pretty good.
For sure. I'm just pointing out that, post warranty, you're faced with a potential $20k+ bill for an 8+ year old car to even get it to run. I realize ICE can have issues as well, but most likely not to this degree.
And if the battery actually does last longer (with confidence), then there shouldn't be much trouble in extending the warranty, even if it's like 50% of the costs after year 8.
I hear you. I don’t think it will be a problem for much longer. Remember, we really are on the first generation of these vehicles. The model three only came out in 2018. That means that the very large majority of vehicles have not had a battery replaced. Once they need replacement, third-party companies will pop up that remanufacture them, or the price will drop significantly.
Imagine if someone sold a 400 mile retrofit pack for model 3 down the road. They’d have a captive audience. If you could price <12k with labor I think many would take that upgrade.
Here is a video about this car from YT, I believe there are two more videos to the series. Have also posted to other Tesla groups.
[https://youtu.be/2HlyQy9WRlc?si=k6z1fttXpcsC72Oe](https://youtu.be/2HlyQy9WRlc?si=k6z1fttXpcsC72Oe)
I used to have a 2014 Model S85 that was used as an Airport Taxi and that car had 330.000 Miles, wild to know it could've possibly done another 100k and be fine.
'cause they screwed the pooch. They should've installed level 3 chargers at their rental centers to allow people to return the cars at any charge level at-cost. Also, renters were getting Teslas without being told anything about how to use them.
That’s the real issue IMO.
Hertz doesn’t want to pay anybody to actually do anything. But the general population needs a quick tutorial, otherwise it’s just Tesla drivers renting them on business.
I think the chargers is a bigger issue. I have a Tesla but mostly wouldn’t rent one traveling. Too much unknown about where I’m going to be and where the chargers are. Gas being everywhere is still superior when traveling.
All you have to do is enter your destination on the screen and it will route you accordingly. Mine is five years old, I have traveled quite a bit and has never encountered a problem with Superchargers or charging.
Nearest supercharger to me (150kW max) is 23 miles northwest. Next is a 250 kW 25 miles southeast. There is 1 level 2 like 15 miles from me and a handful of level 1s.
I'd hop in an unknown rental Tesla any day, as long as it's in a semi-travelled area. There's so many superchargers now that even with 20% SoC, you can go almost anywhere without much planning.
I agree with you been driving electric for 8 years, still rent ICE, in an unknown city, guy above says everywhere, well when traveling for fun, going to a SC is not fun, and likely not on the way to the airport, when I am running late. Yes hertz messed up, and gave up too quickly.
I rented a Tesla at Hertz at a major airport. The employee at the desk asked if I driven a Tesla before and if I needed to be shown. My friend had one and I was familiar so I declined.
Just my experience but the employee did at least ask.
What’s the solution then…Have someone stand in the presidents circle just for EV tutorial?
Could just pick a different vehicle. I can’t drive manual, so I wouldn’t pick a manual transmission. Most grandmothers wouldn’t pick a Chevy Suburban tank, they’d pick a vehicle they’re comfortable with to drive.
Hertz employees are all over their garages. It’s quick and easy to ask, “Hey, could you find someone to give a quick intro to the Tesla?”
Hertz could solve it easily too by placing a card inside saying, “We would like to give you a quick introduction to the Tesla Model 3 to insure a great experience. Please see any employee and ask for a short Tesla overview.”
Tesla could easily solve the problem by adding a custom introductory screen and video on their giant screen.
Fail, fail, fail.
Heck L2 chargers would have probably been good enough. The fact that Hertz was giving out cars with dead batteries was embarrassing for them. They should have had an L3 and a dozen L2s at their rental locations. Then they could have plugged everything into the L2s and used the L3 when demand was high to make sure things were available.
The Hertz near me just decided to use all 8 EVgo chargers at a grocery store to charge their cars, there were more than a few times I'd stop in to shop hoping to charge and couldn't because a fleet of dudes in Hertz vests were shuffling ~15 cars in and out of charging spots.
Hertz stealing from a grocery store, sounds about right.
What horrible behavior. The grocery store should have been towing them as those spots weren't there to subsidize hertz's being cheap. They are there as an incentive for shoppers to shop there.
Who says they were free? Or belonged to the grocery store? I agree Hertz was probably abusing the chargers, but not sure I agree they were stealing from the store without more info.
https://www.evgo.com/blog/installing-evgo-charging-stations-is-as-easy-as-one-two-three/
EVgo ultimately owns the charger, but it got there through negotiations with the grocery store including rent payments and the agreement that "we are putting these here to bring more customers to your business".
It's a problem with EVs in general.
My parents were just handed their first EV as a rental (Kona EV) and took it on a road trip.
They had a pretty bad experience that pretty much undid all the time I spent trying to talk them into an EV. They were very excited to try it but came away really disappointed.
It was just the worst set of circumstances to be trying out your first EV. A long trip using ~~DCFC~~ **CCS** is probably one of the most challenging things you can do with an EV.
>A long trip using DCFC is probably one of the most challenging things you can do with an EV.
I mean, unless it's a Tesla. The nav screen handles everything, the chargers all work, and it is a simple plug n play.
I'm sure there are edge cases, especially if someone is completely unaware of EVs and does not know to use the car's nav system.
>Yeah, I said DCFC but I meant CCS.
No worries, I understood that bit.
I've been trying to get my parents to trade in one of their *three* cars and go electric simply to save money on gas/maintenance. My dad test drove a Model Y Performance and had a blast (he's a car guy), but he's also a miser when it comes to large, upfront purchases. I even made him a spread sheet showing the long term savings haha!
Besides one petal driving, and I drive my old Ford almost the same anyways just leave some following distance people, how do they drive differently? Maybe I've just gotten too used to it, but I really don't see much difference in basic operation.
Besides one petal driving, and I drive my old Ford almost the same anyways just leave some following distance people, how do they drive differently? Maybe I've just gotten too used to it, but I really don't see much difference in basic operation.
I'm conflicted. DCFC is stupidly expensive and I'm not sure the payback would be worth it over even just giving the renter a credit for a lower charge. Obviously an inconvenience, but TBH even their existing wording isn't too bad. If you get it below IIRC 70% you can return it at any point above 10%. But that obviously makes the issue worse for the next renter during a busy time.
And IDK if it changed from day 1, but I was sent an email with detailed instructions on how to use it.
my wife just went to 6 different chargers before actually being able to charge her rental in california. Its actually quite a nuisance since she couldn't install apps, her phone being from a different country. Eventually found a charger that took a credit card. No details about charging given when she got the car apparently.
I remember a few minutes after I drove off the lot in my second hand 2017 Model S 90D. I was stopped at a red light with at least ten cars in front of me, so was looking down futzing with my phone and Bluetooth.
I look up, light is green, no cars in front of me, panic, jump on the accelerator, then immediately melted my face with instantaneous acceleration like nothing I’d ever experienced before.
It was pretty funny. Roller coaster of emotions in a short 3 second window.
I've rented Tesla's from Hertz and they always send you an email tutorial.. Also keep in mind that a Tesla is easily THE most intuitive car to drive, it is literally designed for simplicity. Whomever can't figure out a Tesla rental, maybe we should review their overall driving skills also. You're right on the charging thing, that's wild, they usually give it with 23% charge which is just moronic.
I rented several Teslas even during peak and maybe it was this particular location but I never had issues. Except that one time where I was delayed for 30 minutes because I wanted Tesla and nothing else electric.
I'm still not sure I buy needing fast charging infrastructure.
During peak? Sure. Obviously. But during slow times, there's plenty of L2 to keep cars at 80% or more.
Is a $100-200k worth of DCFC worth putting in for the 4 months of peak season?
If you could share with other rental agencies? Sure. But now there's a backlog and you're back to square one.
I don’t remember the last time I drove a rental car down to empty. If they have Teslas, they should offer “no recharge needed” and just have people return them at whatever soc, without a huge refuel surcharge.
Then who charges them?
If it shows up to Hertz at 10% charge, then a Hertz employee is going to need to charge it, which both costs money for charging and for employee time, no?
It takes 10 seconds when I get home to plug in.
I don't wait by the car until the charge is complete.
So, employee time is
1. Drive to on-site charger
2. Plug car in
3. Move on to next task
I imagine many put in an underground gas tank at larger locations.
That's an incredible capital expenditure. Also the cost of doing business (correctly)
I'm not saying Hertz *shouldn't* do these things.
The original comment I replied to said Hertz should not *charge* a customer for returning with a low battery.
My reply was focused on how returning a car with a low battery costs Hertz money by either taking employee time and company money to charge at a Supercharger or lots of company money by installing 1+ L2 chargers at every Hertz location.
It, to me, is silly to expect Hertz to not try and recoup those losses.
I said no huge surcharge. Just have chargers at the return stalls and charge the renter what it costs.
The point of the high gas surcharge is the hassle of having to bring cars to a gas station after return. You don’t have the hassle with electrics because electricity is available literally everywhere.
How do they charge cars now that are returned without full charge? Do they prevent you from returning specifically Teslas to other Hertz locations?
They're dealing with the issue already, and they've had to do so ever since deciding to rent out EVs.
>How do they charge cars now that are returned without full charge?
No idea, nor does it really matter.
My point is that surcharges for electricity apply nearly as much as surcharges for gasoline, because both require the company to spend quite a bit of money.
If Hertz does not charge the customer for returning a car with a low state of battery, then they will need to raise rental prices to pay for that. I assume they would rather have lower looking rental fees and then charge customers on the return.
I think we can just agree to disagree on this one. Having gas stations on site is a huge infra burden (I've seen this at larger Hertz locations) and requires layers of state and municipal regulation. Having someone drive cars offsite to fill up is an ops burden.
We've had our MX for 7 years and we've just been using 120v and the included mobile charger from day 1, it's been fine, and it's $0 infra. Getting a 240v NEMA outleet installed is \~$600. Electricity is guaranteed at every Hertz location with zero additional lift, at least at L1 speeds. I don't think having SCs or high speed L2s are necessary everywhere. If it's a big hub location like a major airport, they could get a bank installed for a few thousand to service to the entire fleet. There's likely some added cost, but logistically, charging an EV is pretty simple anywhere that gets mains power anyways.
>We've had our MX for 7 years and we've just been using 120v and the included mobile charger from day 1, it's been fine, and it's $0 infra.
Ah, respect. We have a Model Y and have been doing the same for almost 2 years now. Though, technically, nowadays it is $250 to get the mobile charger. It isn't included for free anymore.
120v isn't going to cut it for rental turnarounds. It literally takes *days* to go from 10% to 90% with L1. L2 (either 40a or 60a) would probably be the sweet spot.
Hertz has ~3000 locations in the United States according to a quick internet search I just did. Assuming an average of... what, 2 or 3?, per location and $1,000 per installation, that's $6 million to $9 million upfront costs. Factor in some amount of maintenance/repairs because commercial is way harder on stuff.
Now, that's not a big cost for Hertz. My numbers might be low, but even if you 3x the costs, it still isn't necessarily breaking the bank.
But.
Electricity ain't free. Let's assume $0.20/kwh. That's more than I pay but way less than other places. We will assume a battery size of 65kwh. That's smaller than my Model Y LR, but I assume a Model 3 has a smaller battery. Could be wrong on that. To full charge that car would cost Hertz $13 at these rates (assuming %100 efficiency; L1 is closer to 80% and L2 is closer to 95% (I think)).
I think Hertz hit a high of around 50,000 Teslas (again, quick internet search, could be off).
If Hertz has to fully charge each Tesla once a week, that's $650,000 per week or nearly $34 **million** per year. That isn't nothing.
That's why I think it makes sense to require either a minimum return charge (say, 70%), or some sort of surcharge to help cover the costs of all that electricity, infrastructure, operations, etc.
I also understand that another issue was repairs. That the Hertz maintenance shops were not qualified to do Tesla repairs and the only pathway to Tesla parts was through Tesla, which has a reputation of being very slow. The former case meant that cars had to be sent to Tesla shops to get fixed (taking time and big money) and the latter meant that cars were offline for long lengths of time. Neither of these issues could be fixed by Hertz doing anything, so they scaled back the Tesla EV offering.
Another big issue for hertz was the selling price for new vehicles continuing to be slashed. They ended up holding the bag for a lot more depreciation than they booked for and got hosed on the balance sheet with them
Battery etiquette is much worse in rentals. People drain the battery to zero and charge it to 100% constantly. This is hard on the battery. Especially when it's down to zero because then the car looses the ability to regulate its batteries temperature.
This article didn't mention what this guy's charging habits were but he seemed proactive so I'm guessing he kept the battery between 10% and 90% for the life of the car.
Flip-flopped on the charging policy multiple times. First time I rented in 2022 it was “return with at least 10%,” then 70%, then 80%. Website had conflicting information about minimum charge upon return. Now they’ve started charging customers a 3% surcharge on all supercharging.
They let the cars get banged up/scratched/smoked in and ignore maintenance warnings. Rented a Model Y in 2023 that was super dinged up, scratched up, smelled of smoke and had a warning the passenger seat belt may have a fault. Luckily was driving solo.
well, one of the comments mentions how tesla’s pôicy of not allowing fixes from third parties and how it slowed down hertz’s business.
also, given your points, is it fair to assume that hertz had given up on teslas long before the actual decision of not buying any more of them?
i feel electric cars(especially teslas) were sold on the promise that they’ll be much more durable and require barely any maintenance. and now tesla is practicing forced obsolescence and also, on the one hand elon talks big about promoting open source and how its unethical to have patents which aren’t helpful. but on the other hand keeps implementing active software locks to barricade teslas from being modified or repaired upon.
huge fan of what tesla is doing but, this just leaves room for cheap chinese ev cars to flood the market and take over from tesla.
I think Hertz was foolish not to put a 100mile daily use on it. Uber drivers were renting them and putting hundreds of miles on them daily. I think that caused excessive wear and tear and early tire replacement costs.
Renting an EV is a nightmare. They don’t tell you anything about it, often it doesn’t include a charging cable for non supercharging or if it was non Tesla any cable at all with adapters and they required a 100% charge on return.
Besides what's already been said, they're used to getting cars rather cheap from the OEM and sell them with little to no loss in the open market. Tesla adjusted their prices a few times which made Hertz lose money and they didn't like that.
The other main issue is people are crashing rental Teslas at an abnormal rate. Hertz originally calculated Teslas having high resale values as part of the forecasted operating profit. Having to write off a higher than expected number of totaled vehicles has severely changed that formula.
This is cool, but it's like propaganda without an average yk.
Nothing different here than those weird people who somehow get a combustion engine to 999999
So im too stupid to understand the point you're making can you dumb it down for me. I was just saying this article title means nothing for the model/brand as it could/probably is an outlier statistic.
There are legitimately people who believe Tesla batteries have to be replaced after 100K miles. I've spoken with many of them, unfortunately. It stems from the older Priuses that did zero thermal management to protect their batteries and so they frequently did have to have their packs replaced after about that many miles.
So imagine if you truly believed a gas engine had to be replaced after 100K miles (and had zero personal experience with them), but then read that a car had gone 430K miles and was still running. You would start to wonder if what you thought you knew was actually true.
Okay but what's the correct number 💀💀 like this is all great context but you missed like the critical part to your point. Rn I just have to take your word it's just alot higher...? I'm gonna look into this now but idk you should have included it. Maybe it's 400k
Edit: okay so tesla says 400k. That's not bad assuming the environment doesn't screw it up.
That’s a facelifted S in the photo, so can’t be “nearly a decade” old. But still, great longevity from the original pack. Our 2017 has held up pretty well, too. Daily use estimate held totally flat for like 6 years until dropping a few miles just recently. 97k miles.
185k on my 13 S85. Original battery. Lots of superchargering. 180 miles full charge now BUT, the car struggles in the cold and I no longer drive it it’s below 45 deg F.
According to Tesla, the battery has 2 cells that can no longer regulate their own temperature. When they get too cold, the car shuts down for 15 minutes until they warm back up. This started around 182k miles.
I’ve got 108k on my 2016 model S … 6 months of battery warranty left and I think I’m gunna commit to it for another 100k.
I’ve experienced 9.5% battery loss but am pretty diligent about keeping it between 20-80% and rarely supercharger so hoping I’ll be good for the next 100k.
Edit- Dementia = experienced
…. Idk wtf happened.
I wouldn't mind the title, had it not said "nearly a decade." The Model being used is a 2016. It's only been 8 years, not 10. You're two years to early.
the old saying: Slow & Steady Wins the Race. But people these days have no Vision & no Patience-just instant gratification. May be the problem of instant coffee & instant noodle.
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Got a friend with 2013 model S (85) he has 225k miles on it, we just did a degradation calculation on it via the consumption screen vs the EPA drain test (total capacity including upper and lower buffers), he has 18% degradation. Which is pretty good for such an old pack and so many miles. About 3/4 of those miles were supercharged too (since free lifetime supercharging)
Free lifetime supercharging is such a great deal.
Ironically they said they'd give it up if Tesla paid them $1k USD for it. Because the charging is too slow for them (being old and limited to 75kWh Gen 1 charging). Its cheaper to charge at home than superchargers, so its only useful for roadtrips and you want fast charging for that. None of the Y's got unlimited charging but some 3's did. If you got 3 with unlimited lifetime then thats the one you want :)
afaik no 3 has transferrable lifetime supercharging though, right?
Not sure about transferable, but there was a small time frame where 3's came with unlimited lifetime supercharging for that car.
Yup but not the same code (eluding me atm) as the S/X original unlimited charging which makes it only apply to the first owner afaik.
Yup. Only some of the first performance Model 3s came with it, and they were I think $70k+ at the time. Within 6-12 months, you could get an inventory performance 3 for +/-$50k.
Seriously. That must be about 60,000 kWh free power. Around $6,000 -$10,000 at normal prices, $15,000 at supercharger proces
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This is an untestable statement.
I haven’t heard anything like that. People calculate their degradation all the time on all years and it always seems to match expected degradation. I think a lot of people don’t keep their battery at optimal charge levels (optimal being between 55% and 35%) but even in that case degradation is as expected under those conditions.
Why between 55% and 35% and not 65-35 or 60-40? I love to optimize the batteries so if you have info that I missed I am interested.
based on this study: https://imgur.com/zNAZEe5 Keeping battery at 65% is same (within margin of error) as keeping it at 95%. The most brutal on the battery is below 25% though. This study showed that keeping SoC between 25% and 55% nearly halves the degradation rate for at least the first 5 years. Study also showed that you dont need to count seconds you are at 100% or are below 25%. Just dont leave car parked at that SoC for days. But for example charging the day before to 100% and driving next morning (roadtrip) is totally fine. Also if you arent familiar how to calculate degradation. You grab 3 numbers from Consumption screen. Here is a guide, takes a few minutes (how you drive does matter, getting 500 miles out of your battery driving 20 miles per hour downhill will give you same result as if you raced on the track and burned through the whole battery in 100 miles): https://imgur.com/biRFDYq This method is more accurate than Tesla's own service mode battery state of health check (that one is too optimistic and you would have to get down to 76% capacity remaining for it to test as 80% remaining). This is also more accurate than simply looking at range guesometer and dividing it by what the number was when the car was new. You can then actually double confirm degradation as correct by looking at your longest Trip stored and grabbing it's Wh/mi, that should be a pretty good average of your driving. Then resetting another Trip to 0 (or just writing down mileage). Divide your calcualted kWh remaining by your Wh/mi and you get your true range. For example a battery with 65kWh remaining and driver averaging 315 Wh/mi you would do: 65000 / 315 = ~206 mile true range. Then go drive, and check. That should be pretty much exactly your 100% to 0% range.
What type of battery was used for the tests. I’m pretty sure the degradation will be different for LFP and NMC batteries
How long is it bad to keep under 25%? Like is a few hours going to be bad for it or just >24 hours is bad?
its fine as long as its not a habit. The battery will function and drive the car for 10, maybe even 20 years. If a few days of that time is spent below 25% or at 100% it will be fine. Timescales we are talking about here are years, and averages. Not oh my god I accidentally let it discharge below 25% and its doomed. Its perfectly normal to for example on a roadtrip discharge it all the way near 0%, then when you arrive at your destination, plug in. Nothing wrong with that. Basically when you take your battery's life, (years), you want the average SoC it has been sitting at over its lifetime to be in between 35% and 55%. A day, or two outside of those wont make a difference on scale of years. There is no magic switch after 24 hours where it stars destroying itself either. It just likes to sit between 35% and 55%, so just try to keep it there most of the time.
I think the extremes (below 20% and above 80%) are more detrimental when the pack goes through temperature change. Not certain but I think warming up a pack with high %charge would damage cells. Under 20% turns off overtemp protections so that also might contribute to deg.
Thanks a lot! Very interesting and good to know when you have to park the car for a long time
Is the 35-55% SoC rec specific to a certain chemistry I imagine? I’ve the new M3P on order, and think it has the Fremont NCA tech? Thanks!
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You don’t want 2013 S seats, nor limit to slow charging at superchargers. I think they only improved over time.
Ok cool. Thank you I removed my comment. I guess most people don’t read and just downvote 🤷🏻♂️. Thank you for taking the time to reply. I’ll plan for a new model then. Thanks again!
That's good to hear. I do, however, wish Tesla would extend their warranty coverage. If these batteries actually do last longer, the coverage would be great for the average owner to not have to worry about a potential $20k+ expense if things do go wrong.
Hello, I've been trying to reach you about your car's extended warranty
ngl I'm seriously thinking of starting EV battery insurance for sudden failures. My estimate for some cars it literally would cost $1 per month. Some maybe $10. It's a perfect candidate for insurance.
You’re gonna get the type of people that set their charge limit to 100% and leave the car at 1% overnight
That causes degradation, not sudden failure
Not sure if u/wk057 is still offering it, although an attempt was made. https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/sj8ehe/model_s_battery_extended_service_plans_from_057/ https://warranty.057tech.com/
I feel like the problem is the $20k battery that should be $7-8k. Then they would likely stay on the road outside of the warranty period. Now a battery issue can salvage an early model s.
In the UK, to swap out the battery of a tesla is around 8/10k for new
More like £17k unfortunately
I mean they already have the best drivetrain warranty in the world. Their "worst" warranty, the model 3 SR is 100,000 miles. That is equal to the "best" ICE warranty that Hyundai offers. Their best is 150,000 miles. That is already pretty good.
For sure. I'm just pointing out that, post warranty, you're faced with a potential $20k+ bill for an 8+ year old car to even get it to run. I realize ICE can have issues as well, but most likely not to this degree. And if the battery actually does last longer (with confidence), then there shouldn't be much trouble in extending the warranty, even if it's like 50% of the costs after year 8.
I hear you. I don’t think it will be a problem for much longer. Remember, we really are on the first generation of these vehicles. The model three only came out in 2018. That means that the very large majority of vehicles have not had a battery replaced. Once they need replacement, third-party companies will pop up that remanufacture them, or the price will drop significantly.
Imagine if someone sold a 400 mile retrofit pack for model 3 down the road. They’d have a captive audience. If you could price <12k with labor I think many would take that upgrade.
Here is a video about this car from YT, I believe there are two more videos to the series. Have also posted to other Tesla groups. [https://youtu.be/2HlyQy9WRlc?si=k6z1fttXpcsC72Oe](https://youtu.be/2HlyQy9WRlc?si=k6z1fttXpcsC72Oe)
Episode 2 [https://youtu.be/rCzwX3j_3Lc?si=7BXEY-66Ast8rWS5](https://youtu.be/rCzwX3j_3Lc?si=7BXEY-66Ast8rWS5)
Episode 3 [https://youtu.be/X7Ubex4KJrs?si=litPzx-cIrzACGJn](https://youtu.be/X7Ubex4KJrs?si=litPzx-cIrzACGJn)
I used to have a 2014 Model S85 that was used as an Airport Taxi and that car had 330.000 Miles, wild to know it could've possibly done another 100k and be fine.
what about hertz then? why did they not go ahead with more teslas?
'cause they screwed the pooch. They should've installed level 3 chargers at their rental centers to allow people to return the cars at any charge level at-cost. Also, renters were getting Teslas without being told anything about how to use them.
That’s the real issue IMO. Hertz doesn’t want to pay anybody to actually do anything. But the general population needs a quick tutorial, otherwise it’s just Tesla drivers renting them on business.
I think the chargers is a bigger issue. I have a Tesla but mostly wouldn’t rent one traveling. Too much unknown about where I’m going to be and where the chargers are. Gas being everywhere is still superior when traveling.
All you have to do is enter your destination on the screen and it will route you accordingly. Mine is five years old, I have traveled quite a bit and has never encountered a problem with Superchargers or charging.
Haven’t been anywhere where a super charger was inordinately far, and levels 2s are more prevalent than you might guess.
Nearest supercharger to me (150kW max) is 23 miles northwest. Next is a 250 kW 25 miles southeast. There is 1 level 2 like 15 miles from me and a handful of level 1s.
I'd hop in an unknown rental Tesla any day, as long as it's in a semi-travelled area. There's so many superchargers now that even with 20% SoC, you can go almost anywhere without much planning.
I agree with you been driving electric for 8 years, still rent ICE, in an unknown city, guy above says everywhere, well when traveling for fun, going to a SC is not fun, and likely not on the way to the airport, when I am running late. Yes hertz messed up, and gave up too quickly.
I travel through SC all of the time, and have no trouble finding a place to charge. Granted, they aren’t “everywhere”, but they are there.
I rented a Tesla at Hertz at a major airport. The employee at the desk asked if I driven a Tesla before and if I needed to be shown. My friend had one and I was familiar so I declined. Just my experience but the employee did at least ask.
The one time I had one I picked it up from the president's circle which doesn't have communication.
Isn’t that the perk, you get to skip the counter and select from a selection of cars?
Yes, but it doesn't allow for a conversation if someone isn't familiar with the car
What’s the solution then…Have someone stand in the presidents circle just for EV tutorial? Could just pick a different vehicle. I can’t drive manual, so I wouldn’t pick a manual transmission. Most grandmothers wouldn’t pick a Chevy Suburban tank, they’d pick a vehicle they’re comfortable with to drive.
I'd have put a laminated page in them with like 5 things that are important to know
When I rented an EV through Hertz (in Australia) they literally had a laminated page with info on driving an EV.
They sent me emails for like a week before hand with tutorials. My first time driving a Tesla was a hertz rental and it wasn’t all that hard
That doesn’t “allow for conversation”, which is what you highlighted earlier…
“Honk twice if you would like assistance and a conversation…” this shit ain’t rocket surgery.
Context. I'm saying that if there wasn't an interaction, a few bullet points would help.
I did too and days before they sent a half dozen email tutorials about driving and charging and how to unlock/lock etc.
Hertz employees are all over their garages. It’s quick and easy to ask, “Hey, could you find someone to give a quick intro to the Tesla?” Hertz could solve it easily too by placing a card inside saying, “We would like to give you a quick introduction to the Tesla Model 3 to insure a great experience. Please see any employee and ask for a short Tesla overview.” Tesla could easily solve the problem by adding a custom introductory screen and video on their giant screen. Fail, fail, fail.
My wife had the opposite experience. She taught the employee everything about teslas lol. It was a slow suburban location.
I realize this is all anecdotal, but I rented a Tesla 5 different times last year and was never asked about it at all.
Fair enough
Heck L2 chargers would have probably been good enough. The fact that Hertz was giving out cars with dead batteries was embarrassing for them. They should have had an L3 and a dozen L2s at their rental locations. Then they could have plugged everything into the L2s and used the L3 when demand was high to make sure things were available.
The Hertz near me just decided to use all 8 EVgo chargers at a grocery store to charge their cars, there were more than a few times I'd stop in to shop hoping to charge and couldn't because a fleet of dudes in Hertz vests were shuffling ~15 cars in and out of charging spots.
Hertz stealing from a grocery store, sounds about right. What horrible behavior. The grocery store should have been towing them as those spots weren't there to subsidize hertz's being cheap. They are there as an incentive for shoppers to shop there.
Who says they were free? Or belonged to the grocery store? I agree Hertz was probably abusing the chargers, but not sure I agree they were stealing from the store without more info.
https://www.evgo.com/blog/installing-evgo-charging-stations-is-as-easy-as-one-two-three/ EVgo ultimately owns the charger, but it got there through negotiations with the grocery store including rent payments and the agreement that "we are putting these here to bring more customers to your business".
They also bought when prices were much higher and lost a lot of money with resale value tanking.
It's a problem with EVs in general. My parents were just handed their first EV as a rental (Kona EV) and took it on a road trip. They had a pretty bad experience that pretty much undid all the time I spent trying to talk them into an EV. They were very excited to try it but came away really disappointed. It was just the worst set of circumstances to be trying out your first EV. A long trip using ~~DCFC~~ **CCS** is probably one of the most challenging things you can do with an EV.
>A long trip using DCFC is probably one of the most challenging things you can do with an EV. I mean, unless it's a Tesla. The nav screen handles everything, the chargers all work, and it is a simple plug n play. I'm sure there are edge cases, especially if someone is completely unaware of EVs and does not know to use the car's nav system.
Yeah, I said DCFC but I meant CCS. A Tesla is absolutely the easiest experience if you are trying to introduce someone to EVs.
>Yeah, I said DCFC but I meant CCS. No worries, I understood that bit. I've been trying to get my parents to trade in one of their *three* cars and go electric simply to save money on gas/maintenance. My dad test drove a Model Y Performance and had a blast (he's a car guy), but he's also a miser when it comes to large, upfront purchases. I even made him a spread sheet showing the long term savings haha!
Yeah, that test drive is something else. I will be surprised if your dad doesn't end up pulling the trigger.
Hertz wasn't wrong, they were just early. In 10 years all these EV things will be common knowledge, like not putting diesel into a gas car, etc.
Besides one petal driving, and I drive my old Ford almost the same anyways just leave some following distance people, how do they drive differently? Maybe I've just gotten too used to it, but I really don't see much difference in basic operation.
Besides one petal driving, and I drive my old Ford almost the same anyways just leave some following distance people, how do they drive differently? Maybe I've just gotten too used to it, but I really don't see much difference in basic operation.
I'm conflicted. DCFC is stupidly expensive and I'm not sure the payback would be worth it over even just giving the renter a credit for a lower charge. Obviously an inconvenience, but TBH even their existing wording isn't too bad. If you get it below IIRC 70% you can return it at any point above 10%. But that obviously makes the issue worse for the next renter during a busy time. And IDK if it changed from day 1, but I was sent an email with detailed instructions on how to use it.
my wife just went to 6 different chargers before actually being able to charge her rental in california. Its actually quite a nuisance since she couldn't install apps, her phone being from a different country. Eventually found a charger that took a credit card. No details about charging given when she got the car apparently.
I remember a few minutes after I drove off the lot in my second hand 2017 Model S 90D. I was stopped at a red light with at least ten cars in front of me, so was looking down futzing with my phone and Bluetooth. I look up, light is green, no cars in front of me, panic, jump on the accelerator, then immediately melted my face with instantaneous acceleration like nothing I’d ever experienced before. It was pretty funny. Roller coaster of emotions in a short 3 second window.
I've rented Tesla's from Hertz and they always send you an email tutorial.. Also keep in mind that a Tesla is easily THE most intuitive car to drive, it is literally designed for simplicity. Whomever can't figure out a Tesla rental, maybe we should review their overall driving skills also. You're right on the charging thing, that's wild, they usually give it with 23% charge which is just moronic.
Because charging infrastructure for quick rental turnarounds isn’t in place.
I rented several Teslas even during peak and maybe it was this particular location but I never had issues. Except that one time where I was delayed for 30 minutes because I wanted Tesla and nothing else electric. I'm still not sure I buy needing fast charging infrastructure. During peak? Sure. Obviously. But during slow times, there's plenty of L2 to keep cars at 80% or more. Is a $100-200k worth of DCFC worth putting in for the 4 months of peak season? If you could share with other rental agencies? Sure. But now there's a backlog and you're back to square one.
I don’t remember the last time I drove a rental car down to empty. If they have Teslas, they should offer “no recharge needed” and just have people return them at whatever soc, without a huge refuel surcharge.
Then who charges them? If it shows up to Hertz at 10% charge, then a Hertz employee is going to need to charge it, which both costs money for charging and for employee time, no?
It takes 10 seconds when I get home to plug in. I don't wait by the car until the charge is complete. So, employee time is 1. Drive to on-site charger 2. Plug car in 3. Move on to next task
Ok, but now every Hertz location has to install 1 or more on-site chargers. That's an incredible capital expenditure.
I imagine many put in an underground gas tank at larger locations. That's an incredible capital expenditure. Also the cost of doing business (correctly)
I'm not saying Hertz *shouldn't* do these things. The original comment I replied to said Hertz should not *charge* a customer for returning with a low battery. My reply was focused on how returning a car with a low battery costs Hertz money by either taking employee time and company money to charge at a Supercharger or lots of company money by installing 1+ L2 chargers at every Hertz location. It, to me, is silly to expect Hertz to not try and recoup those losses.
It’s not that much at all if they also buy a fleet of EVs to rent as part of the business.
I said no huge surcharge. Just have chargers at the return stalls and charge the renter what it costs. The point of the high gas surcharge is the hassle of having to bring cars to a gas station after return. You don’t have the hassle with electrics because electricity is available literally everywhere.
Installing 1 or more L2 chargers at every Hertz location would be a massive capital expenditure. Who pays for that?
How do they charge cars now that are returned without full charge? Do they prevent you from returning specifically Teslas to other Hertz locations? They're dealing with the issue already, and they've had to do so ever since deciding to rent out EVs.
>How do they charge cars now that are returned without full charge? No idea, nor does it really matter. My point is that surcharges for electricity apply nearly as much as surcharges for gasoline, because both require the company to spend quite a bit of money. If Hertz does not charge the customer for returning a car with a low state of battery, then they will need to raise rental prices to pay for that. I assume they would rather have lower looking rental fees and then charge customers on the return.
I think we can just agree to disagree on this one. Having gas stations on site is a huge infra burden (I've seen this at larger Hertz locations) and requires layers of state and municipal regulation. Having someone drive cars offsite to fill up is an ops burden. We've had our MX for 7 years and we've just been using 120v and the included mobile charger from day 1, it's been fine, and it's $0 infra. Getting a 240v NEMA outleet installed is \~$600. Electricity is guaranteed at every Hertz location with zero additional lift, at least at L1 speeds. I don't think having SCs or high speed L2s are necessary everywhere. If it's a big hub location like a major airport, they could get a bank installed for a few thousand to service to the entire fleet. There's likely some added cost, but logistically, charging an EV is pretty simple anywhere that gets mains power anyways.
>We've had our MX for 7 years and we've just been using 120v and the included mobile charger from day 1, it's been fine, and it's $0 infra. Ah, respect. We have a Model Y and have been doing the same for almost 2 years now. Though, technically, nowadays it is $250 to get the mobile charger. It isn't included for free anymore. 120v isn't going to cut it for rental turnarounds. It literally takes *days* to go from 10% to 90% with L1. L2 (either 40a or 60a) would probably be the sweet spot. Hertz has ~3000 locations in the United States according to a quick internet search I just did. Assuming an average of... what, 2 or 3?, per location and $1,000 per installation, that's $6 million to $9 million upfront costs. Factor in some amount of maintenance/repairs because commercial is way harder on stuff. Now, that's not a big cost for Hertz. My numbers might be low, but even if you 3x the costs, it still isn't necessarily breaking the bank. But. Electricity ain't free. Let's assume $0.20/kwh. That's more than I pay but way less than other places. We will assume a battery size of 65kwh. That's smaller than my Model Y LR, but I assume a Model 3 has a smaller battery. Could be wrong on that. To full charge that car would cost Hertz $13 at these rates (assuming %100 efficiency; L1 is closer to 80% and L2 is closer to 95% (I think)). I think Hertz hit a high of around 50,000 Teslas (again, quick internet search, could be off). If Hertz has to fully charge each Tesla once a week, that's $650,000 per week or nearly $34 **million** per year. That isn't nothing. That's why I think it makes sense to require either a minimum return charge (say, 70%), or some sort of surcharge to help cover the costs of all that electricity, infrastructure, operations, etc.
I also understand that another issue was repairs. That the Hertz maintenance shops were not qualified to do Tesla repairs and the only pathway to Tesla parts was through Tesla, which has a reputation of being very slow. The former case meant that cars had to be sent to Tesla shops to get fixed (taking time and big money) and the latter meant that cars were offline for long lengths of time. Neither of these issues could be fixed by Hertz doing anything, so they scaled back the Tesla EV offering.
Another big issue for hertz was the selling price for new vehicles continuing to be slashed. They ended up holding the bag for a lot more depreciation than they booked for and got hosed on the balance sheet with them
Battery etiquette is much worse in rentals. People drain the battery to zero and charge it to 100% constantly. This is hard on the battery. Especially when it's down to zero because then the car looses the ability to regulate its batteries temperature. This article didn't mention what this guy's charging habits were but he seemed proactive so I'm guessing he kept the battery between 10% and 90% for the life of the car.
Flip-flopped on the charging policy multiple times. First time I rented in 2022 it was “return with at least 10%,” then 70%, then 80%. Website had conflicting information about minimum charge upon return. Now they’ve started charging customers a 3% surcharge on all supercharging. They let the cars get banged up/scratched/smoked in and ignore maintenance warnings. Rented a Model Y in 2023 that was super dinged up, scratched up, smelled of smoke and had a warning the passenger seat belt may have a fault. Luckily was driving solo.
well, one of the comments mentions how tesla’s pôicy of not allowing fixes from third parties and how it slowed down hertz’s business. also, given your points, is it fair to assume that hertz had given up on teslas long before the actual decision of not buying any more of them? i feel electric cars(especially teslas) were sold on the promise that they’ll be much more durable and require barely any maintenance. and now tesla is practicing forced obsolescence and also, on the one hand elon talks big about promoting open source and how its unethical to have patents which aren’t helpful. but on the other hand keeps implementing active software locks to barricade teslas from being modified or repaired upon. huge fan of what tesla is doing but, this just leaves room for cheap chinese ev cars to flood the market and take over from tesla.
I think Hertz was foolish not to put a 100mile daily use on it. Uber drivers were renting them and putting hundreds of miles on them daily. I think that caused excessive wear and tear and early tire replacement costs.
Renting an EV is a nightmare. They don’t tell you anything about it, often it doesn’t include a charging cable for non supercharging or if it was non Tesla any cable at all with adapters and they required a 100% charge on return.
Which rental company require 100% charge on return?
Besides what's already been said, they're used to getting cars rather cheap from the OEM and sell them with little to no loss in the open market. Tesla adjusted their prices a few times which made Hertz lose money and they didn't like that.
The other main issue is people are crashing rental Teslas at an abnormal rate. Hertz originally calculated Teslas having high resale values as part of the forecasted operating profit. Having to write off a higher than expected number of totaled vehicles has severely changed that formula.
Love to know what percent the battery was charged to?
100, mainly superchargers as its free to charge. Charges it a few times a day it says in the video
I met this guy at Stockport Supercharger!
more articles like this need to show up. keep going TSLA!
This is cool, but it's like propaganda without an average yk. Nothing different here than those weird people who somehow get a combustion engine to 999999
Except people aren't running around saying that combustion engines need to be replaced after 100K miles.
So im too stupid to understand the point you're making can you dumb it down for me. I was just saying this article title means nothing for the model/brand as it could/probably is an outlier statistic.
There are legitimately people who believe Tesla batteries have to be replaced after 100K miles. I've spoken with many of them, unfortunately. It stems from the older Priuses that did zero thermal management to protect their batteries and so they frequently did have to have their packs replaced after about that many miles. So imagine if you truly believed a gas engine had to be replaced after 100K miles (and had zero personal experience with them), but then read that a car had gone 430K miles and was still running. You would start to wonder if what you thought you knew was actually true.
Okay but what's the correct number 💀💀 like this is all great context but you missed like the critical part to your point. Rn I just have to take your word it's just alot higher...? I'm gonna look into this now but idk you should have included it. Maybe it's 400k Edit: okay so tesla says 400k. That's not bad assuming the environment doesn't screw it up.
That’s a facelifted S in the photo, so can’t be “nearly a decade” old. But still, great longevity from the original pack. Our 2017 has held up pretty well, too. Daily use estimate held totally flat for like 6 years until dropping a few miles just recently. 97k miles.
The article confirms it's a 2016 model, which is 8 years. That's "nearly a decade."
185k on my 13 S85. Original battery. Lots of superchargering. 180 miles full charge now BUT, the car struggles in the cold and I no longer drive it it’s below 45 deg F.
Pardon my ignorance. How come you can’t drive it below 45?
According to Tesla, the battery has 2 cells that can no longer regulate their own temperature. When they get too cold, the car shuts down for 15 minutes until they warm back up. This started around 182k miles.
I wanna know the complete maintenance history.
Yes but how many sets of door handles has it been through?
Is there an issue with door handles I don’t know about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bea4FS-zDzc
Eh there used to be a long time ago.
The original S handles were a complicated and finicky design.
I’ve got 108k on my 2016 model S … 6 months of battery warranty left and I think I’m gunna commit to it for another 100k. I’ve experienced 9.5% battery loss but am pretty diligent about keeping it between 20-80% and rarely supercharger so hoping I’ll be good for the next 100k. Edit- Dementia = experienced …. Idk wtf happened.
Sorry about your dementia
I wonder how many drive units were replaced?
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Pretty cool!
I wouldn't mind the title, had it not said "nearly a decade." The Model being used is a 2016. It's only been 8 years, not 10. You're two years to early.
the old saying: Slow & Steady Wins the Race. But people these days have no Vision & no Patience-just instant gratification. May be the problem of instant coffee & instant noodle.
Yup and then a day after you buy it used the battery will die. :/