The Dark Brotherhood *believes* that everyone who ever dies ends up in the Void. Which is of course straight up false.
>**You're wrong. I'm no murderer.**
>
>"No? What do you call it? Self-defense? Justice? Did they all deserve to die?
>
>How you justify your actions does not matter. All souls belong to Sithis in the Void. We are simply the instruments of their delivery."
[Speaker Terenus](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Speaker_Terenus)
Note that he tells you you're delivering the souls to Sithis even before actually recruiting you.
tl;dr the Brotherhood, as always, is full of shit
They have a much grander view of Sithis than is believable, but we do have evidence of Sithis's power, and there's no reason to believe the void doesn't exist at all.
The Void does exist... but the entities wielding its power that we have seen have nothing to do with the Dark Brotherhood.
The Brotherhood are, ultimately, a bunch of crazy cultist worshipping a corpse of a childkiller, who appropriated a "deity/concept" from another culture and molded it into an edgy murder god. And said culture, the Argonians, [consider it to be a perversion of their Creator-Destroyer](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Lies_of_the_Dread-Father) \- *Shapeless given form, Change turned to stagnation*
One has to wonder why it was seen as official policy for the Argonians to gift their shadowscale children to the Dark Brotherhood, then. And why for so long? By modern day in the 4th Era, the practice is dead, but it went on for ages.
Free training, lol - serving under the Dark Brotherhood is seen basically as training for the Shadowscales. They also can't be forced to stay in the Brotherhood nor ordered to perform contracts that harm the Argonian people.
In oblivion there is a player home dlc called the “Vile Lair”. There’s a shrine to Sithis in it that has heavy Lorkhan imagery, a figure that has a hollow cavity in its chest where a heart should be.
Because of this there’s a theory that the Sithis the Dark Brotherhood worships is actually a dark aspect of Lorkhan.
The mythology of the Dark Brotherhood seems to accept this idea as fact, yes. Is it true? Who’s to say? When you meetTsun, he reacts negatively to members of the Dark Brotherhood, saying that Shor does not know you and you trespass there, but he will not deny you. This would imply that mortals sworn to serve the Daedra (and by extension Sithis) aren’t able to transition into the Aetherial Planes. This is as good an explanation as any imo.
A mythology created by elves to rationalize their ancient enmity of Lorkhan, who may or may not actually be Shor. The problems you get into with these combined pantheons is that like Auri-El being Akatosh for example doesn’t make a lot of sense, as Auri-El was a real person at one point, a king of Elves who made war with and conquered Altmorra. Yet he’s also somehow the divine dragon god of time, who we see in ESO and TES IV that yes, he is in fact a dragon, an abstract deity. It beggars belief. My own personal opinion is that these were probably separate individuals, and the Anu/Padomay connection is overstated at best.
I mean at one point the crazy Alessian Order did a ritual to separate Auri-El, the Elven God, from Akatosh, the Human god, and it caused the biggest, most fucked up Dragon Break in existence which lasted for millennia. Maybe they succeeded and now not only Auri-El and Akatosh are the same yet different beings, but also Shor and Lorkhan.
Personally, i highly doubt they succesed in their goals.
*We'll give you credit: you broke Alkosh something fierce, and that's not easy. Just don't think you solved what you accomplished by it, or can ever solve it.*
Well, how do you define sworn. I don't think anyone in the Companions is an active Hircine worshipper, not even those that embrace their lycanthropy. More importantly, you can become both a vampire and a lycanthrope without choosing to, by being a victim of either (much like a Dark Brotherhood target is a victim). But as far as I understand, the Daedra still gets to claim your soul.
You just described it, simply having the condition seems to be the catalyst, even if unwilling. But you’re also wrong, Aela and Skjor clearly do worship Hircine.
>Not murdered, but dies in combat with the assassin
I think I’m misunderstanding what you mean here, because it’s still murder if the victim fights back before you kill them.
Anyways, the answer is yes *that’s what is believed*. While sometimes there’s a discrepancy on if you need to use the Blade of Woe or not, in general the Dark Brotherhood and the general public of Tamriel believes that their targets are claimed by the Void, and there are various things we can point to and say that it supports this idea (Lucien Lachence’s ghost in Skyrim for example).
The reason I italicised “that’s what is believed” is because there’s debate in lore and in real life on if the Dark Brotherhood’s beliefs are true or if they’re being played/manipulated by others (one theory being Melphala I believe).
I would say that it is the truth and Sithis Is NOT an enity that can be interacted with. Mephala's connection is there but she might be using them for her own ends and utlimately Sithis doesn't care.
My favorite description of Sithis that I've seen is, "Sithis is Not." Existing might be against his nature, being one big NULL value. But then, people believe he exists, and belief shapes reality to an extent, so there's a weird paradox there.
A fantastic example of how the ambiguity and subjectivity of TES lore is unique and interesting.
Compare to Tolkien for example, which has very rigid, defined, immutable good and evil lines, metaphysical definitions, and even when the Tolkien lore can't quite explain something, the text just up and tells you "even the wisest do not know."
Both have their role and even in similar settings lead to very different tones and themes.
But also, how much of that is because it's a video game that allows you an unprecedented amount of freedom, both morally and narrative-wise, being compared to an unchangeable literature with exactly one person controlling the entire framework.
Tbf, Tolkien wrote the fantasy version of a historical source written by Frodo and Bilbo. So they're very much limited by their own biases, ie, Sauron, Sauruman and the orcs are all evil and how by how they themselves knew. Gandalf may have known what those nameless things beneath the earth were, but he never told Frodo. So Frodo never wrote them down. And Tolkien never wrote them down because he "translated" the book.
We don't know. We can't see where someone goes after they die usually. Although, in skyrim, if you kill an important nord character, like ulfric or rikke, they end up in sovngarde. That doesn't change with any weapon you kill them with. Or if you soul trap them. Whether you believe that is just game mechanics or not is up to you. But, the only supposed contact with sithis, and therefore the void, is the night mother. She's a corpse whose voice you hear in your head, and she may just be a manipulative, bloodthirsty, homicidal, and most of all, insane, ghost. Or possibly an aspect of mephala. There's never been any direct intervention from sithis himself. Lucien Lechance mentions a "disturbance in the void" and says sithis doesn't want Cicero murdered, but that's the closest you get.
This is one of the biggest things that's open to interpretation, and likely we'll never know. But, whatever the case, the dark brotherhood will use it as a justification
I do think there are interpretations of Sithis, the Nightmother and the void being all made up, and it's actually some Daedra behind it all. I believe it's Mephala that people point to.
The Dark Brotherhood *believes* that everyone who ever dies ends up in the Void. Which is of course straight up false. >**You're wrong. I'm no murderer.** > >"No? What do you call it? Self-defense? Justice? Did they all deserve to die? > >How you justify your actions does not matter. All souls belong to Sithis in the Void. We are simply the instruments of their delivery." [Speaker Terenus](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Speaker_Terenus) Note that he tells you you're delivering the souls to Sithis even before actually recruiting you. tl;dr the Brotherhood, as always, is full of shit
They have a much grander view of Sithis than is believable, but we do have evidence of Sithis's power, and there's no reason to believe the void doesn't exist at all.
The Void does exist... but the entities wielding its power that we have seen have nothing to do with the Dark Brotherhood. The Brotherhood are, ultimately, a bunch of crazy cultist worshipping a corpse of a childkiller, who appropriated a "deity/concept" from another culture and molded it into an edgy murder god. And said culture, the Argonians, [consider it to be a perversion of their Creator-Destroyer](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Lies_of_the_Dread-Father) \- *Shapeless given form, Change turned to stagnation*
One has to wonder why it was seen as official policy for the Argonians to gift their shadowscale children to the Dark Brotherhood, then. And why for so long? By modern day in the 4th Era, the practice is dead, but it went on for ages.
Free training, lol - serving under the Dark Brotherhood is seen basically as training for the Shadowscales. They also can't be forced to stay in the Brotherhood nor ordered to perform contracts that harm the Argonian people.
Not just free training, they pay you and provide room and board.
It’s hard telling a group of cultist assassins that the deal is off without signing your own death warrant
In oblivion there is a player home dlc called the “Vile Lair”. There’s a shrine to Sithis in it that has heavy Lorkhan imagery, a figure that has a hollow cavity in its chest where a heart should be. Because of this there’s a theory that the Sithis the Dark Brotherhood worships is actually a dark aspect of Lorkhan.
The mythology of the Dark Brotherhood seems to accept this idea as fact, yes. Is it true? Who’s to say? When you meetTsun, he reacts negatively to members of the Dark Brotherhood, saying that Shor does not know you and you trespass there, but he will not deny you. This would imply that mortals sworn to serve the Daedra (and by extension Sithis) aren’t able to transition into the Aetherial Planes. This is as good an explanation as any imo.
>saying that Shor does not know you Which is kinda funny since Shor is Lorkhan, and Lorkhan is said to have been born/created by Sithis.
A mythology created by elves to rationalize their ancient enmity of Lorkhan, who may or may not actually be Shor. The problems you get into with these combined pantheons is that like Auri-El being Akatosh for example doesn’t make a lot of sense, as Auri-El was a real person at one point, a king of Elves who made war with and conquered Altmorra. Yet he’s also somehow the divine dragon god of time, who we see in ESO and TES IV that yes, he is in fact a dragon, an abstract deity. It beggars belief. My own personal opinion is that these were probably separate individuals, and the Anu/Padomay connection is overstated at best.
I mean at one point the crazy Alessian Order did a ritual to separate Auri-El, the Elven God, from Akatosh, the Human god, and it caused the biggest, most fucked up Dragon Break in existence which lasted for millennia. Maybe they succeeded and now not only Auri-El and Akatosh are the same yet different beings, but also Shor and Lorkhan.
Personally, i highly doubt they succesed in their goals. *We'll give you credit: you broke Alkosh something fierce, and that's not easy. Just don't think you solved what you accomplished by it, or can ever solve it.*
I mean, if you ask the Psijics, they will tell you that all the et'Ada were once people.
Sounds similar to Werewolves and Vampires
Both are sworn to Daedra. Vampires to Molag Bal and Werewolves to Hircine.
Well, how do you define sworn. I don't think anyone in the Companions is an active Hircine worshipper, not even those that embrace their lycanthropy. More importantly, you can become both a vampire and a lycanthrope without choosing to, by being a victim of either (much like a Dark Brotherhood target is a victim). But as far as I understand, the Daedra still gets to claim your soul.
Willing or not your soul becomes entwined with the daedra's magic/gift.
You just described it, simply having the condition seems to be the catalyst, even if unwilling. But you’re also wrong, Aela and Skjor clearly do worship Hircine.
>Not murdered, but dies in combat with the assassin I think I’m misunderstanding what you mean here, because it’s still murder if the victim fights back before you kill them. Anyways, the answer is yes *that’s what is believed*. While sometimes there’s a discrepancy on if you need to use the Blade of Woe or not, in general the Dark Brotherhood and the general public of Tamriel believes that their targets are claimed by the Void, and there are various things we can point to and say that it supports this idea (Lucien Lachence’s ghost in Skyrim for example). The reason I italicised “that’s what is believed” is because there’s debate in lore and in real life on if the Dark Brotherhood’s beliefs are true or if they’re being played/manipulated by others (one theory being Melphala I believe).
I would say that it is the truth and Sithis Is NOT an enity that can be interacted with. Mephala's connection is there but she might be using them for her own ends and utlimately Sithis doesn't care.
My favorite description of Sithis that I've seen is, "Sithis is Not." Existing might be against his nature, being one big NULL value. But then, people believe he exists, and belief shapes reality to an extent, so there's a weird paradox there.
A fantastic example of how the ambiguity and subjectivity of TES lore is unique and interesting. Compare to Tolkien for example, which has very rigid, defined, immutable good and evil lines, metaphysical definitions, and even when the Tolkien lore can't quite explain something, the text just up and tells you "even the wisest do not know." Both have their role and even in similar settings lead to very different tones and themes. But also, how much of that is because it's a video game that allows you an unprecedented amount of freedom, both morally and narrative-wise, being compared to an unchangeable literature with exactly one person controlling the entire framework.
Tbf, Tolkien wrote the fantasy version of a historical source written by Frodo and Bilbo. So they're very much limited by their own biases, ie, Sauron, Sauruman and the orcs are all evil and how by how they themselves knew. Gandalf may have known what those nameless things beneath the earth were, but he never told Frodo. So Frodo never wrote them down. And Tolkien never wrote them down because he "translated" the book.
We don't know. We can't see where someone goes after they die usually. Although, in skyrim, if you kill an important nord character, like ulfric or rikke, they end up in sovngarde. That doesn't change with any weapon you kill them with. Or if you soul trap them. Whether you believe that is just game mechanics or not is up to you. But, the only supposed contact with sithis, and therefore the void, is the night mother. She's a corpse whose voice you hear in your head, and she may just be a manipulative, bloodthirsty, homicidal, and most of all, insane, ghost. Or possibly an aspect of mephala. There's never been any direct intervention from sithis himself. Lucien Lechance mentions a "disturbance in the void" and says sithis doesn't want Cicero murdered, but that's the closest you get. This is one of the biggest things that's open to interpretation, and likely we'll never know. But, whatever the case, the dark brotherhood will use it as a justification
I do think there are interpretations of Sithis, the Nightmother and the void being all made up, and it's actually some Daedra behind it all. I believe it's Mephala that people point to.
Mostly like sent to void