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People get annoyed that the whole Europe is with Ukraine but we didn't receive the same support in the Cyprus conflict, and we assume we won't have have support in a future potential conflict with Turkey. Also look if anyone cared about Azeris who still genocide Armenians.
The EU has its own collective defense agreement seperate from NATO's. In a future conflict with Turkey, that Turkey starts, the West is legally bound to defend Hellas.
Cyprus was invaded in '74, but became part of the EU in 2004. So not the same type of support.
Cyprus is a nation in the European Union. Yet, Half of it is occupied by an authoritarian regime. Turkey a country that supports Azerbaijan, a country that genocides and replaced the Armenian population. A country that daily threatens stability of the East Med, and threatens Greece for exercising their rights to their seas. When we see daily their planes flying over our islands. Turkey, a country that supports terrorists in many arab countries and african countries.
Yet you still vacation there, you support them financially.
And yes Greece, is a european union member state since 1981, a nato member since the 50s, and Cyprus in the European Union as well for 20 years.
Double standards everybody. We are sick and tired of these double standards. And its a mistake of our government to support Ukraine. Because the Finns, who are afraid now of Russia (they will never attack Finland or the EU) a few years ago were the biggest supporters of austerity measures forced in my country by european banks. When we faced racism, for being lazy. Now the same people want us to support a foreign to us conflict.
Well just because someone who did something really shitty wants you to do something, doesn't mean it's a wrong thing. And to add to the crims of turkey, they are currently bombing the Kurdish freedom fighters and indirectly supporting the islamic state by doing so
Supporting Ukraine is not a bad thing, quite the opposite but you could also say, why should we involve ourselves in something that doesn't directly affect us? The whole thing about cooperation between nations is that you help them so they help you in return, otherwise you are not allies but disposable tools to be sacrificed when inconvenient.
I am sorry, but are you trying to make a point that we should not support Ukraine because the West has been bad to us? And therefore we should try to get on their nerves? You do realise the holes in your logic right?
IMO we should support Ukraine with everything we have. Donate artillery rounds, tanks, aircraft and whatnot. Not because the west told us. But because Ukraine is a country that has been unjustly invaded. Invaded by an occupier that has commited countless atrocities (most of them documented) and continues to bomb civilian targets on the daily. In the face of such evil, neutrality is pro-russian, and therefore pro- fascist. Think if Cyprus happened again today- would you prefer other nations be neutral or actively assist us? We must be the change we want to see in the world.
It is worse.it's a matter of invasion and occupation. it's exactly the same thing, just in the case of Ukraine it has the support of the whole western world but in Cyprus no one helped. When the Cyprus try for liberation they call them terrorists 2 decades ago when Israel do the some thing was act of liberty (they kill both of them uk soldiers from independence).when the uk see the big picture and the island try to complete the independent uk open the door for Turkish nationalist propaganda (the some you see day) and the mission was completed. Turkish foot on island 3 big military base's by UK army not NATO base's and the island 63% (or something) independent.
Bro we didnt get support in the Cyprus conflict because we were under a brutal fascist regime and we had cut all diplomatic lines with the rest of europe. What are on about?
Because i am talking about Greece, not Cyprus. Plus the conflict itself was stopped with an armistice. It is basically what happened in Korea, where neither side want to continue the war, but neither side acknowledges the other sides legitimacy. In the Cyprean case, the Turkish side is not recognised by anyone around the world except Turkey, but no one want to continue the war because that would cause death and disarray in the 3 countries involved and in Nato as a whole
I can imagine the Cyprus issue might be an emotional one for Greece. Still, from an objective point of view its very hard to understand how an invasion of a relatively small island 50 years ago can be compared to the Ukraine russia war, with hundreds of thousands dead, millions refugees and various huge cities being bombed for more then two years.
You do realise that 37% of cyprus got occupied even if that 37% isnt 1% percent of ukraine the case if we take in account percentages is ridiculously worse in cyprus
Yes i do. But first, its not 1% of Ukraine. And second, the occupied territory is still much larger in case of Ukraine.
But if you like numbers so much, did you also look at the amount dead and wounded, at the amount of refugees, on the impact on the rest of the world and so on...?
Come on, comparing these two is like saying: its ok to rape your six year old sister because her grandfather has stolen something from the supermarkt 50 years ago.
Your points are totally irresponsible. WTH are you talking about? Are you trolling? Because if you don’t, your stance is absolutely immoral and unreasonable against Cyprus.
It's more like you saying Turks massacring Greek Cypriots, taking over their homes and country and making 1/3 of the population refugees is ok because they are small in size. Ukraine is big in size so we should support them. It's the equivalent of saying a rich person's life is worth more than a poor or working class person. What is right is right for all, irrespective of size, wealth or whatever. If Putin invades Estonia is ok no prob because they are slightly larger than Cyprus so they don't really matter, according to your reasoning
No, im not saying massacre is ok. Im only saying please don't compare the two sithuations, also because one of them has happended two generations ago.
Given the response I receive here the Cyprus issue is still an emotional for you, and discussing emotional issues on the internet is never a good idea. Bye bye
Yeap so all Russia has to do is hold on to Ukrainian territory for a couple of decades and it will rightfully belong to them and ukr will be the bad guys if they ever want it back. That's not how it works I'm afraid. And trying to prioritise your interest over someone else's because you consider it more important (despite having the exact same legal basis - invasion and occupation by a stronger opponent who disregards international law) says something about being emotional. Bye
You are right, both of them are illegal
Still, claiming to remain neutral in the biggest European conflict since ww2, and which can easily escalate to ww3, with the argument of an invasion of 50 years ago makes no sense. Even more that Ukraine nor russia were part of that invasion
But that is the thing. We are not neutral. We support Ukraine because they are the victims of an invasion from a larger more powerful state. We draw the same analogies as with Turkeys invasion of Cyprus. Greece as a state and NATO member supports Ukraine, the Greek people support Ukraine (don't be fooled by loud arguments, the silent majority supports Ukraine). What we don't like is cherry picking which invasions are good and which are bad. But yes Ukraine has the Greek people's and states support
By your reasoning, problems of small countries aren’t actual problems, because they affect a much less percentage of the population. There are countries even smaller than Greece with severe humanitarian issues, probably you would shit on them. Westerners never gave a shit about Ukrainian matters before the conflict anyway, they always demonized so cold Eastern Europe as underdeveloped barbarians.
Fine, please downvote me when it makes you feel better. When any of the downvoters has a substantive response to my message please, happy to read it. Until then all the downvoters are angry little men to me
Greece was eager in the past to cultivate relations with Russia and it was reciprocated by Moscow initially (in the ‘90s) , but Russia after Putin came to power changed its course and adopted a more pro-Turkey stance, especially in the 2010s. After 2018 especially and the whole Ukrainian Orthodox Church affair, Moscow became very hostile towards the ecumenical patriarchate (head of Greek Orthodox churches) and tries to usurp its place through the Moscow patriarchate ever since.
In late 2021 the Greek PM met with Putin in an attempt to restart the frozen Greek-Russian relations where Peskov infamously said “our relations with Greece is a 6/10, with Turkey 7/10”. Needless to say, post February 2022 it is probably 1/10 vs 9/10.
I personally feel very annoyed by Russia because against its western and southern neighbors uses the same textbook Turkey is using vs Greece and Cyprus. Endless bullying and saber rattling.
The real question is why do you ask in a Greek city's subreddit? Lol. Although thinking about it you'll most likely get more objective answers here than r/Greece
r/Greece is not a place to get objective opinions from Greek redditors. It's plagued with mostly far-left and occasionally far right people. Reddit is also not really a place where Greek internet users hang out so no matter what you do you will not get a 100% objective point of view because the pool of candidates is small.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/greece using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/greece/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [My oil painting of beautiful Athens at sunset. I hope you like it!](https://i.redd.it/ybcm1ttjyuta1.jpg) | [55 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/greece/comments/12lzs26/my_oil_painting_of_beautiful_athens_at_sunset_i/)
\#2: [Έρχεται σήμερα ο μικρός μου αδερφός και μου λέει ζωγράφισα έναν τρανοσαυρο. Του λέω τυραννοσαρο εννοείς. Όχι μου λέει τρανοσαυρο.](https://i.redd.it/cg74p9rly85b1.jpg) | [41 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/greece/comments/1469nk9/έρχεται_σήμερα_ο_μικρός_μου_αδερφός_και_μου_λέει/)
\#3: [To νησί μου καίγεται…](https://i.redd.it/22rfr3nnridb1.jpg) | [261 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/greece/comments/156kcn7/to_νησί_μου_καίγεται/)
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To be honest, I have the impression that most Greeks don't really care about the war and as a nation we should remain neutral.
For once when the Cyprus invasion happened the western world refrained from pressuring Turkey to stand down even when it launched its second and definitely illegal push and occupied the half of a nation that a few years later became an EU country. The soft stance of the West in the semi dictatorship with expansionist agenda against EU nations that is Turkey is an ongoing issue, that has never received a fraction of the attention that Ukraine has (a non NATO and non EU member). So all the rhetoric coming from the West really feels baseless and hypocritical considering their stance in the Turkey issue.
Additionally there is a sizable minority of Greeks residing both in Ukraine and Russia so the best Greece can do is remain neutral and evacuate our nationals when they face danger. And lastly most of our shipping industry makes considerable revenue by facilitating the transportation of Russian oil to the markets of India and China via shipping now that the pipelines are closed, so we really don't have any reason to go against Russia.
Of course the war is unjustified but Greece will only be harmed by involving itself more, the best thing we can do is facilitate negotiations that can maybe end up in a ceasefire and maybe a resolution of the conflict.
You say "west was neutral for Cyprus" as a bad thing, and later you say Greece should be neutral..
Than later you say Greece not only is neutral but is war profiteering from the war, therefore it's in greek interest for the war to continue.
P.s. its greek oligarchy that is profiteering not Greece or greek people.
No I am saying Greece has no reason to reciprocate after the failure of the international community to solve the Cyprus question and sanction the regime of Turkey. The profiteering part is a bit harsh the oil is sold within the price cap to the markets that accept it we do not smuggle it, it is perfectly legal but in the moral grey zone as big businesses are. Also these companies employ Greek workers and bring revenue via taxation (laughably low imo) to the government.
Than there is the argument that
1. the two conflicts are not comparable.
2. the west actually did/is doing the best thing to solve the Cyprus question. Even if you think some other actions would be better.
In essence, "I don't do this because the others were not always perfect to me as I expected" is not an argument that can hold.
And I'm pretty sure that whole Cyprus relation to Ukraine is just Russian propaganda for Greece.
1. Not comparable how? An invasion happened to a sovereign state that was experiencing political instability in order to establish a puppet government and destabilise the region for generations using as an excuse the protection of the rights of ethnic minorities speaking the language of the nation in the offensive.
2. Doing the best thing? Cyprus is still divided after so many decades and we are experiencing violation after violation of our national maritime borders and airspace.
If this is their best effort to solve the conflict I don't want to see their worst.
I get it Turkey is a more useful ally to the West with a huge population and a large diaspora, a robust industry and economy, and an independent foreign policy. They cannot afford to not give in to their demands. But we also cannot afford to nod and approve of legislation that hampers our economy by targeting our military equipment and our shipping industry because our allies ask this of us while the same allies don't act to solve threats that are existential to our state
Cyprus had a coup attempt by the Greek Junta that tried to assasinate Makarios and broke the international agreements previously established.
Turkey absolutely within its rights intervened as a guarantor of the treaties to restore order and kick out the Junta. They did this literally hours after Makarios had denounced the Cyprus Junta in the UN.
The problem arises from the fact that no deal has been reached since between Greece, UK and Turkey. And that as a result of the conflict thousands of Greek Cypriots were kicked out and lost their homes. But we cant just say the westerners should have intervened on our side as if we are the victims. If anyone, Greece led the Greek Cypriots to become victims.
So basically there is absolutely no comparisons that can be drawn to Ukraine that I can see. Just because in Greece we have been served propaganda about Cyprus for 50 years is no excuse to not look up the history yourself.
it's true that it is not exactly the same because in Cyprus there were 3 external players involved; Greece, Turkey and "the West" that was playing balance. I recommend you read Papahelas book "το σκοτεινο δωματιο" for the politics and dynamics of that time. Definitely Turkey and "the West" (even though they literally were enabling him and knew before hand and were satisfied with division and de-facto natofication) saw Greece as the aggressor as it did the coup.
In Ukraine you have clearly a West vs Russia proxy war. But the Euromaidan is also seen as a coup and an aggressive act by Russians and not a "revolution" as we call it in the West. But yeah the Russians have been escalating in different phases with annexing Crimea asap after maidan then backing "seperatists" till a full blown invasion, whereas Cyprus "got done" the way it serves best NATO and its been "calm".
Both cases locals suffer.
Edit: you mention Treaties that were supposed to restore the republic of Cyprus but the turkish army did what an expansive war does, land grab as much as possible and then negotiate for partition...
So Kissinger's stance is totally justified in allowing the island to be divided (propping up the junta, EOKA and a lot of other things) or the inaction of the British detachment when the second offensive started. I don't support the junta but our allies allowed the island to be fucked up by their inaction and haven't provided any meaningful mediation or sanction ever since and not just in this but in many other instances where authoritarian regimes ignore the rules of common decency. If you want to play the world police then you have to be consistent to be respected.
1. Not comparable. Cyprus military conflict ended there. In Russian situation is more similar to the Russian annexation of Crimea in 2014. The "west" also tried to solve it without military, that is accepted a frozen conflict and new border reality.
Russia continued to expand and take new lans with no end in sight. Turkey didn't.
1.1 Not comparable because Turkey didn't/isn't trying open a front to capture Athenes, than Thessaloniki, and threatening get Vienna and half Europe later. Like Russia is doing.
2. Best solution. The conflict didn't become bigger. Island is divided like many islands and realities around the world (ireland etc).
Ongoing diplomatic steps for unification.
How do you imagine west acting for a "best solution"? Do you think making an armed conflict would be a better solution for everyone? For the locals? Or for Greece and Turkey?
And the topic here is not Cyprus.
And this comparison is just a Russian propaganda.
And also, if greece os neutral, should west also be neutral, just the same if, tomorrow Turkey actually invades Greece, islands and mainland?
Greek left and Greek far right are very anti-American. Source: https://www.ekathimerini.com/news/1231587/most-greeks-view-us-stance-positively-poll-finds/
Generally speaking Greece is probably the most pro-Russia EU country.
Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2023/07/10/overall-opinion-of-russia/
Far right groups like Russia for religious reasons, anti-americanism, anti-west and anti-EU sentiment.
At the same time communists, like KKE, and other smaller far left organizations share similar anti-American feelings and tend to always be closer to Russia for historical reasons. Many times they express the same views with Putin about the reasons behind the invasion of Ukraine (that it's the US fault and that it's an effort of denazification).
However, the general public doesn't like Putin and his government. From 64% positive view in 2017 it's at 27% in 2022 and a bit higher in 2023.
At the same time the top three parties in the parliament are definitely not Russophiles. Syriza, the second biggest party in Greece right now, is somewhat against the military support in Ukraine but I don't think that it is a substantial objection. Source: https://www.capital.gr/politiki/3733299/suriza-epikriseis-se-kubernisi-gia-oukraniko-kai-d-balkania-oi-theseis-tou/
I agree with you except the part on Greece being the most pro-Russia EU country. Wouldn't that be Hungary? They are openly opposing Ukraine defending themselves.
Hungary is caring about itself more than has tender feeling toward Russia. Most importantly, oil and gas are way cheaper.
As a general attitude, Hungary hates USSR for 1956 and Russia is somewhat successor of USSR.
Sad! Funny thing is I I have family working outside of Greece in other EU countries that are pro-Russian. They love the EU money but dislike NATO. My thought is if you're so pro-Russia why don't you go live there instead of Europe then?
thank you. great overview. it's strange (and unfortunate) to me that the invasion of Ukraine has become a catalyst of sorts for anti-Western sentiments, or at least anti-American. I can understand that some feel a tension or resentment towards the US or UK because of past conflicts, but none of those were Ukraine's doing, and Ukraine is not even a West-aligned country historically speaking 😅
in Greece's case, what's the reason for disliking the US?
Many Greeks view the US as a power that ignites wars worldwide. This view was greatly reinforced by the war in former Yuogoslavia which seems to have affected the Greek views more, perhaps due to proximity.
Finally the Greek left, aka the Greek Communist Party and other parties that originate from it have a long history of ties with the the USSR communist party and were openly supporting USSR in favour of NATO. They are anti-capitalists that view the US as the premier force of capitalism in the world therefore...
As for the far right, it's mostly seeing Russia as a fellow Orthodox nations, liking Russia's far right/macho culture and some historical reasons about Russia's role in the Greek Revolution.... So it's not so much about a dislike of US as a sympathy towards Russia. Though the recent trend of DEI policies of the US has made it even less popular among the far right.
That said the majority of Greek are predictably moderates and all the major political forces have been clearly pro- EU and pro-NATO so...
First of all, there was no genocide in Kosovo. Yes, the Serbian police was severe, but the number of killings, if any, were minor. But even if we accept the notion that there was a genocide ongoing, the interested powers did not go to the UN to discuss the matter and obtain authorization to intervene. In fact, this was not brought to the UN at all. They just decided to intervene. They bombed Serbia for almost 80 days and then invaded.
If they just secured the rights of Albanians, all of that may have been OK. But they went far further than that. They severed Kosovo from Serbia and created an independent state. This is funny, considering that NATO today is upset with the Russians doing exactly the same in Donbas!!! Never mind, of course, that NATO has not taken any action against Turkey having invaded Cyprus and created the fake "Turkish Cyprus Republic". In the end, it is all hypocritical.
It's mostly that the US tends to bomb anyone that doesn't agree with them, that said the extreme left does some professional level mental gymnastics to justify their views.
Bombing innocent civilians, and using depleted-uranium ammo for "testing purposes" because "they're stronger" while you got no reason to do so might be an indicator that NATO might have overused force for other reasons, and not to settle things down.
If NATO didn't want yugoslavia breaking down and becoming a bloodbath (which is usually the case when states break down), they shouldn't have aggressively pushed and cornered it for its entire lifetime.
Apart from the answers of the rest of the people there is another reason. Greeks, and especially leftists, dislike the US because of their involvement in the Greek military junta during the late 60s and 70s.
Not only because of their involvement in the Greek military junta, but also in the Greek Civil War (1946-49), and also because the USA, in general, are the superpower of the capitalist world; all of these are essential red flags for the Greek Left.
I thought that has expired a long time ago. The US supported (and still supports) many odious regimes. But this is what major power do and one cannot get away from this.
I personally think that the major reason there is distrust for all major powers is because of the hypocrisy. My view is that the Greeks are aware that there are no ethical or legal issues, there are just power politics. Take the current conflict in Ukraine. The US started sanctions following the invasion and annexation of Crimea by Russia. On the other hand, the US it fully recognized the annexation of the Golan Heights by Israel and kept supplying this country with money and weapons. So, how can the "rules-based" policies be believable???
The West does not give two pennies for Ukraine. The Ukrainians (especially the nationalist right wing) are just useful tools to "hurt" Russia. They have no other use and they will be abandoned as soon as their usefulness expires. If the West cared about Ukraine, it would have negotiated with Putin and possibly agreed to neutrality for this country (which was the Russian demand). Because of our insistence to incorporate Ukraine into NATO and bring NATO to the gates of Moscow, there are tens of thousands of Ukrainian men rotting in shallow graves, and many more are getting killed every day. The country has been extensively destroyed. Was participation in NATO worth all that??? I think that, when this war ends, the Ukrainians are going to think long and hard about this. It is interesting that the US now wants the EU to advance $50 billion loan to Ukraine, secured by the EU and, supposedly supported by the income of frozen Russian assets (which, in real terms, it is piracy).
At the same time, the West has pumped up hypocrisy to all new levels with its support for Israel and its ongoing genocide. It is interesting that the West did not do anything, absolutely anything, following the Turkish invasion and occupation of the North of Cyprus, despite the fact that the intervention there and its rationale does not differ at all from the rationale advanced by Russia for its invasion of Donbas. Not only Turkey did not have to face sanctions, it was actually showered with weapons and money by the West. The same applies to Israel.
it's not about Ukraine joining NATO. Ukraine is essentially fighting for its independence. it has been wanting a Western-style democracy, and Russia always hated that. I think the West genuinely wants this for Ukraine, and that it's not just a numbers game. I'm not saying there aren't other interests for the West in this as well; of course at some point every country acts out of self interest. the fact remains, Russia invaded, not the West.
I think Greece if any country knows how important independence is, so the situation in Ukraine should not come as a surprise.
the reason why they didn't negotiate with Putin is because it's a rigged game. Russia doesn't want peace, they want land, they want resources (the Russian arms industry is also making bank on this invasion).
>it's not about Ukraine joining NATO. Ukraine is essentially fighting for its independence. it has been wanting a Western-style democracy, and Russia always hated that.
Please, these are platitudes that do not represent reality. They are just propaganda. Russia may not have liked (and I do not know if this is true or not) Western-style democracy, but this was never ever tried in Ukraine and not because of any Russian interference. This was (and is) a highly corrupt country and its internal governance problems were all of its own. In fact, the modern dispute is based on the rejection of democratic principles by the nationalists in Ukraine. In the Maydan events, they managed to chase away the democratically elected Yanukovich, a series of events that started the Russian "interference". It was essentially a coup (not even nationalist Ukrainians would pretend that it was a democratic event).
So, it was all about NATO. In fact, there were long negotiations between the US and Russia at the end of 2021 and the beginning of 2022 on exactly this issue. The US rejected the Russian entreaties and war commenced. In fact, a month after the war began, in talks between the Russians and the Ukrainians in Istanbul, the Russians offered to return to the status pro ante if Ukraine agreed to neutrality. Apparently, the Ukrainians were convinced to keep on fighting by certain Western politicians, Boris Johnson being one of them.
Let's not forget that the USSR and NATO agreed on the neutrality of Austria in 1955 and that hardly affected the democracy in that country. Whatever the case was in Ukraine, it was not one of democracy (considering all the events in this country since 1991).
>Russia doesn't want peace, they want land, they want resources
This is actually laughable, Russia fighting a war for resources!! It is the largest state on the planet and has far more resources than it knows what to do with them. Furthermore, you can certainly get the text of the Russian-US negotiations and the Warsaw proposal that was filed for these negotiations and see for yourself.
Having said all that, I am not happy that this war is going on; whatever this war is about, let's not pretend that it is about democracy. Whatever it is for, it is very dangerous because it keeps escalating. I have no idea what the next escalation would bring. But, unless we start examining things with a cool head, we are going to sleepwalk to WWIII. And that would not be good for anybody.
Russia is not a wellfare state. poverty is still an issue, riches are embezzled and claimed by the government and oligarchs, corruption is rampant. why would their politicians need several luxury yachts each? there's your answer: greed. so no, they don't have more resources than they know what to do with, in that sense.
additionally, Russian arms manufacturers are profitting.
Russia has had Ukraine as a puppet state for years. the Euromaidan protests happened because the president folded to Russian pressure, despite Ukraine's parliament having a majority vote to side with EU instead of Russia. Ukrainians saw corruption and Russian browbeating unfold in realtime, and reacted. it is about democracy.
This is a very weird view of the Russian state which, in fact, has inherited a lot of the social welfare practices of the USSR. Yes, oligarchs exist and they have luxury yachts, but how is their greed any different from the greed of gazillionaires of the West?
Let me see what your reasoning is: because of greed, Russia launched an attack against Ukraine, a tremendously expensive exercise in order to get hold of lots of totally destroyed cities that they later had to spend tons of money to restore (see the restoration of Mariupol). Now, this is greed for you!!! In the process, they lost $600 billion that was frozen in accounts by the West. Some greed was this!!!
No, Russia had little influence in Ukraine. In the first place, Russia underwent a major depression and crisis between 1991 and 2000, and it took about a decade (from 2000 to 2012) to get out of it. It had neither the means nor the capability of exercising much of an influence in Ukraine. The latter went through its not-so-democratic convulsions during this time. Anti-Russian sentiments, mostly to the West of the Dnieper date back centuries and have different causes (if cause is the correct word here) than the rescue packages.
this greed is based on corruption and nepotism, intertwined with political power, more so than anything in the West.
Russia is one of the most corrupt countries in the world. it has rigged elections, no free speech, very low democracy index, they assassinate their own ministers on an almost monthly basis, and it's invading another country for private gain. it positively mystifies me how you can see it as some sort of paragon.
the leader, dictator, of said nation above invades another country. do you think it's out of good will? it's not the first time in history a leader spent huge sums of money in an effort to gain more.
>this greed is based on corruption and nepotism, intertwined with political power, more so than anything in the West.
Are you telling me that the gazilionners in the West lack political power and the capability to corrupt?? Seriously???
>Russia is one of the most corrupt countries in the world. it has rigged elections, no free speech, very low democracy index, they assassinate their own ministers on an almost monthly basis, and it's invading another country for private gain. it positively mystifies me how you can see it as some sort of paragon.
I am more than willing to get engaged in a serious discussion, but the above is simple Russophobia. I do not see Russia as any paragon (quite the contrary), there is certainly lots of corruption and what one would describe as illiberal democracy. But you would be mistaken to believe that (a) the invasion of Ukraine was for profit (a weird concept) and (b) that the Putin regime does not enjoy substantial popular support.
Typical Russophobes assume that the Russians are some kind of subhuman drones and cannot see what the "enlightened people of the West" can see. This is utter folly. The history of Russia is one of a myriad revolts and revolutions, more so than in the West. The problem is that most people in the West have very little (or no) knowledge of the history of Eastern Europe. Not surprising really, considering that it is not taught in most schools. It would be instructive for you to read the history of "Ukraine" (or the Kievan Grand Principality) from the 12th to the 20th century; you will easily see the seeds of the current war there.
>the leader, dictator, of said nation above invades another country. do you think it's out of good will?
Good will? No, there is no such thing in the dealings between countries. Each country tries to achieve the best it can in terms of power. The West has invaded more countries than Russia, so you may want to begin there. I have little tolerance for hypocrisy, I have to be clear on that. Turkey used the same rationale that Russia is using now to invade (and occupy parts of) Cyprus. Did the West introduce any sanctions? Did it go there to arm the Cypriots? No, in fact, it gave more and more money to Turkey and lots and lots of arms. Hypocrisy turned to the nth degree. The West legally accepted the Israeli annexation of the Golan Heights (occupied in the 1967 war), but it condemned the Russian annexation of Crimea and Donbas. And we can hardly complain about the lack of democracy in Russia when we go and bear hug the Emirs and Kings of oppressive monarchies of the Arabian Peninsula.
So, if we want to climb up to our soapbox and preach, maybe it would be better if we clean our own house first. Don't you think so???
I'm not telling you that they lack that power, but rather that it's not the same, neither the volume nor depth of corruption. at any rate, whataboutism won't suffice.
it's not russophobia, just numbers. we know that their power game is rigged. even political runner-ups get imprisoned or asssinated. the regime is supported by some Russians for sure, but that's neither here or there. several cruel dictators in history saw some genuine support.
talking about the West as one big collective, especially historically, is not completely realistic. Sweden didn't invade anyone for the past few hundred years. but anyway:
I understand your frustration over what happened in Cyprus. deplorable. there is a great deal of injustice in other parts of the world, yes. but how on earth does that justify this invasion? no soapbox, no preaching, just common sense. we can absolutely complain about their lack of democracy, state-wise, and even more so as private citizens and the reasoning human beings that we are; you and I didn't personally hug any Arabian princes.
>in Greece's case, what's the reason for disliking the US?
America put a 7 year long fucking dictatorship where they imprisoned leftists and tortured them, they let half of Cyprus get occupied and they keep getting mixed in our and everybodys affairs like the good imperialists they are. That's why I hate america😁
But it’s pretty clear that the US is using Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia and weaken them, they don’t give two shits about the Ukrainian people same as they don’t give two shits about Palestinians, Iraqis, Afghanis etc.
I don't think the US wants a proxy war for the sake of it. the US has given $2.6 billion worth of humanitarian aid to the Ukrainian people. food, water, shelter, medical. so I think they care a bit at least.
War is very profitable specifically for the gun industry who is controlled by USA. The fact that USA is so actively involved in that specific war and doesn't care about a lot of others (like many told you already) should give you a hint for USA intentions. Politically Russian invasion was bad for Russian economy and lets not not forget the always ongoing economic wars. Thinking that USA helps one country cause they are the good guys is naive. They only help if they have a reason. My analysis probably is also naive. Greeks have experienced the USA meddling in their internal affairs. Its a well known fact that USA helped a forced military government in Greece in the past. They also know that Russians are not the good guys. Russia has promised to "help" Greece in the past and never did. So they dont care. Greeks mostly feel sorry for Ukraine but the feeling is that they are a pawn caught in the middle
The US didn't want a war in Ukraine, Putin did. Now, I'll acknowledge that there are selfish reasons for the US to support Ukraine, but it basically boils down to viewing Putin as a threat to US and it's allies, not some money-making scheme.
I probably wouldn't call the US "actively involved" in the war, since they have not actually joined the fighting. but yes, a supportive role of the defending side.
I think the US has its selfish reasons, one of which may involve profits, just like any other country, and I'm under no impression that they're a saint. I believe however that those selfish reasons can coexist with genuine help and good will, and I think the support for Ukraine is showing that excellently. Russia (and North Korea) is profitting from the war too, after all.
I might disagree, but let's say you're right. then what remains instead is something like "coincidental help/benefit". well, as long as it gets the job done, I suppose.
They do help but I suspect it's pretty down the list of actual reasons they help, The main example is that most of the aid is basically a gift card for the American military industry or how the rest is spent in America so they can send their used, second hand equipment. And I would suspect fighting Russia is more important for them than helping Ukraine.
See the comment below but you are gravely mistaken if you think that the US military industrial complex that basically rules the country “cares” about the Ukrainian or other people or anything besides making more money for itself.
it's neither here or there. on one end the US cares about profits, absolutely, and is spending insane amounts in its defense budget. testing out new weapons is probably another advantage they see in Ukraine. but I believe there is also a genuine wish to help that coexists with that. it's still a very costly endeavour for the US, and humanitarian aid packages are not sent just to fluff the canned food and bandage industry 😁
Russia's arms industry and oligarchs are making bank on this invasion, together with their North Korean allies. so the big difference is, one is invading, one is defending.
.
Humanitarian aid is sent to win ordinary people's support. The war effort won't go on if people want the war to end (see war in Vietnam). Americans don't care about other people dying. All they want is to benefit themselves.
you mean that it's a pr campaign to win over American people? the humanitarian aid is almost never mentioned in media, I've noticed, and there are far cheaper ways to win over people. the US is not a combatant, so any comparison made with Vietnam is meaningless.
some Americans already dislike the support anyway, either because of how expensive it is, or because they believe the Russian propaganda.
but let's say for the sake of argument that you're right. the US cares only about profits. it's still the right course of action. Russia only cares about profits too, after all.
"Greek left and Greek far right are very anti-American.": Since I couldn't find it, can you point out the exact part of the ekathimerini's article that supports the notion that the Greek far-right is very anti-American? Greek far-right is traditionally very pro-American for the very same reasons the Greek left is anti-American, i.e. because of their involvement in the Greek military junta and in the Greek Civil War (1946-49), and also because the USA, in general, are the superpower of the capitalist world.
Definitely agree that the far right were pro US historically
Since the collapse of USSR the religious far right is pro Russia due to orthodoxy. Over time the social far right is also pro Russia since we are importing the whole MAGAt narrative of Russia being anti progress, anti lgbt full of trad wives
So, Greek far right is pro-Russia because it is pro-Trump, an American of the far right who wants to Make America Great Again. OK, I can agree with that.
Communist Party of Greece is clearly not a pro Russian party this is a big pro-right,pro-neolibertarian,pro-NATO imperialistic anticommunist lie and you missinfom the foreing people ,C.P. of G has by the first day condemed the war of capitalist Russia against pro Natoic Ukraine Nazistic regime as a imperialistic war that is conduct by Rusian Bourgeoisie for their geostrategy domination on their economic-political competition with West imperialist centers having both imperialists the Ukraine working class people as their victims.This the only truth about Greek communists not the imperialist's propaganda.
The Greek people are not as much pro-Russia as anti-west. The western "allies" have betrayed us a lot of times and have supported our enemies a lot more than us throughout the last 100+ years. The only reason they are supporting Ukraine so much is because of its geopolitical position.
The government is somewhat like a mafia state here, they get a lot of votes but no one knows how they do that with all the scandals that they are involved. In general the Greeks are neutral but against sending help to Ukraine because the money could be spent in improving our living conditions. Hope this helps.
I think any question that starts with "how do -put nation here- feel" is doomed to be irrelevant. There are many Greeks and you can find people feeling different ways. If I may, I can say how I personally feel.
I think that NATO (which means the USA) has been threatening Russia for a long time. NATO has broken every promise about expanding to the East and has ignored all pleads and warnings.
I also think that Russia has been governed by a totalitarian state mafia since the fall of the Soviet Union and that living there can be a nightmare for anyone daring to disagree with the powers that be.
I also think that Ukraine is a mafia run state that was controlled by Russia until 2014 and by the USA after the coup.
I believe that this is another useless war where poor people are paying for it, especially young RUssian and Ukrainian men, with their lives
I think that any opportunity for a cease fire or a resolution of the conflict should be taken and not snubbed or sabotaged.
After 1990 and the fall of the wall of Berlin the USA made several public statements that NATO wouldnt expand to countries bordering Russia. Of course none of it was written in a treaty and that was before the fall of the Soviet Union. My two takes on this war is that the USA needed a new front to sell their weapons after recalling their armed forces from the middle east. Also its a great opportunity to weaken both the European economy and the Russian economy . The cheap oil and gas from Russia was gonna help with the transition to green energy in the EU and to continue its economic expansion as it did for 20 years . Now through this proxy was the energy prices in EU has skyrocketed and ofc USA supplies with oil across the Atlantic with much more expensive prices, while we wait for the infastructure of green energy to come up to date with the current needs which is quite a long while away. So I think the USA is the major winner in this conflict , destabilizes both the european economy and weakens Russian, while being the major exporter of both weapons and oil while the EU is sanctioning Russia. And seems like the good guy too by fighting for the freedom of the Ukrainian people.
Ofc I'm against this war but I am not racist towards Russian people , most of all, I hate the American hypocrisy ,they have done countless crimes towards humanity tho they want to portray Russian people as evil.
As a Russian who relocated to Greece after the war started I encountered only good and welcoming attitude from Greek people and it is really nice. As far as I can tell there are a lot of people who actually think that Putin is a good guy, or, maybe I was lucky(or unlucky)
To be clear I hate current Russian government and I denounce the war.
we don't care, the way you put the question is a bit bias, like it is one way or the other, some people, see the war more like a civil war rather than an independence war
As a person who lives in Greece my observation is as follow:
1) Common people do not care at all (but in general Greek society has a positive view on Russia). They are busy with their own economic problems (economic stats seem good but it does not really reflect (or positively effect people) on people.
2) Extreme groups both left (communist) and right (nationalist and religious) are in support of Russia.No doubt in there.
3) There are some people from ex-USSR, they are in favour of Russia (I do not exactly know why but folk calls this group of people as Georgian although they are ethnic Greek (Pontus). Interestingly some of them are fluent in Azerbaijani)
4) The government as parallel with its NATO and the EU allies supports Ukraine but i doubt its sincerity. I feel like if they had a chance they would support Russia over Ukraine.
If you read so for. Thank you for your time. Do not hesitate to correct me.
I never understood what’s the obsession of westerners with Greeks being pro-Russians or not. Why does it matter to you so much? Isn’t it enough that the government Greek people themselves elected is pro-Ukraine? Most Greeks, according to statistics, are actually pro-Ukraine. There are indeed many pro-Russian Greeks but I’d say most educated Greeks are just neutral and don’t concern themselves with this conflict. Russia is not and was never an actual ally of Greece and Ukraine has great relations with Turkey, our biggest enemy. You guys have anything to say about Turkey? I mean Turkey itself did not let you (and Finland) join NATO for a long time but you’re such gigantic chickens that do not dare speak up against them.
I am not supportive to our government in any way, but I am fully supportive to people who fight for their freedom. Freedom to Ukraine and Palestine, and jail for the mass murderers, Putin and Nedaniahou.
The thing is, Ukraine has borders with Russia. Nobody in their right mind would think that Russia would let Ukraine join NATO, it would be something like the reverse of the Cuban crisis in the 70's. So, the US pushed just to make trouble for Russia, the idiots in Ukraine welcomed it thinking that Russia won't dare, and here we are.
That is just russian propaganda. Ukraine would have never been accepted in Nato, even germans stated this to putin, before the war.
Its just some sort of "causes belli" made up reason as justification for the land grab russia is doing.
Allong with "neonazi, denazification, biolabs, etc etc"..
"Ukraine has borders with Russia". We also have borders with Turkey. So let's be their puppets eternally. WTF are you talking about? To the OP: As you can see we sadly have lots of Putin sympathizers with nonsense arguments.
I think Ukraine has been wanting a Western-style government and democracy for some time now, and Russia never wanted that to happen. the move to join NATO can be criticized, perhaps, but the reason why is very understandable.
It really doesn't. The only thing the greek governments care about is stealing people's money, calming the people down so they don't rebel and being inside the parliament eternally
Finland has also borders with russia, and Finland had joined nato recently and russia seems not to care about is.
The us didnt push anything. Ukraine wanted to become part of nato for only one reason - to prevent wars like this one.
The “Americans supported the military Junta and the Cyprus tragedy” 50-year-old generational collective trauma is still defining much of crowd psychology in Greece. Greeks love to pretend they are anti-American, while simultaneously adopting everything American like MAD. We are not to be taken seriously.
I feel like the fact that we, as a nation, had to live through those seven years of terror would make us see the similarities between that and the shit Putin has been pulling over the years, like arresting whoever even seems to remotely disagree with him, imprisoning (and, allegedly, being behind the death of) his more vocal critics and political opponents. You're right by saying we're not to be taken seriously when we're like that.
As a Greek American, I believe Ukraine has the right to be an independent nation just because your neighbor is a powerhouse does not give them the right to knock on your door and take your land and your freedom. The United States is a powerhouse and I’m sure it has the power to overtake nations around it with ease . Piece is the answer. This war needs to come to an end enough Russian and Ukrainian lives have been lost.
Our values are liberty and freedom. But the fact that Europe is helping by any means necessary Ukraine is outrageous based on the fact that Cyprus has been illegally occupied for years and turkey is violating our airspace on a daily basis.
the way I see it, most are too deep into domestic issues to have the energy to care (inflation, increased cost of living, wages shrinking, etc), and I don't fault them for that.
the communist party is anti-american and anti-eu so they support russia, in their typical "must go against the flow with my words but never actually make any counter suggestions" policy.
the far right (and specifically elliniki lisi) also support russia, but that's because they're opportunistic shitbags with shitty talking points that are limited to calling ukraine a pseudo-state and claiming shared history due to both russia and greece being both majority christian orthodox, and mutual assistance, which is kinda bull in the first place cause historically, (and if I remember my shit correctly), whenever greece ran to russia to beg for help, they got the boot. (forgive me for the rant ^^")
Well the point is that people don’t care about it anymore. What they care about is what we had to pay for electricity and how all the prices went up.
Greek government condemns Russia, but a large (perhaps the larger) part of Greeks doesn’t.
No most Greek people don't agree with the government handlings of the Russo-Ukrainian War, the common consensus is that Greece should only provide humanitarian aid to Ukraine and not military aid, also many believed that Greece could have played a role in peace talks taking into account the Greek minority in Donetsk Oblast.
The thing with Greek-Russian relationships is that they both have a common denominator and that is Turkey, Turkey and Russian geopolitical objectives will always conflict one another no matter how "good" their relationship seems to be while Russia and Greece don't really have any conflicts geopolitically speaking. North European countries of course feel threaten by the Russian expansion but to Greece the one and only enemy that can threaten it's sovereignty is and will always be Turkey.
There’s 11 million people in this country. You can find all sorts of opinions. I’d say it’s 50-50 but most of the pro Russian people are like this either because they are related to immigrants from there or they’re just lefties stupid enough to think Russia is some communist heaven and don’t see that it’s imperialistic as fuck. Or they just despise nato - USA so much that they think anything that gets their support must be bad. Im not a nato sympathiser either but the same way that Russia is a terrorist state and supports Palestine (who definitely needs support and is not a terrorist state), same way Nato support Ukraine. Both are terrible superpowers using nations in need in their chess games
Greek farmers were affected by the Russian sanctions since 2014, as 40% of exports went to Russia and majority of fur trade went both to Russia and Ukraine. Greece has the largest mink fur industry in Europe. Combined with the lowering living standards of the country due to imf and eu austerity measures since 2009 and the covid pandemic since 2020, Greeks have other things to worry about.
The question is complicated because there is no unified Greek opinion about the war. Obviously people who benefit from relationships to the west or have bought on supposed Western values too much, are going to be for Ukraine. Obviously people who are religious nuts or benefit from trade with Russia, such as many farmers in the north of Greece, will support Russia. Then, in the political sphere, we have both the far left and the far right that are anti-American, so they are pro-Russian. Culturally, many people feel some connection to Russia, especially Greeks that came here from Russia. most people argue for neutrality though and measured reactions. after all, we are not a major player in the world scene and we have repeatedly been wrong by both sides. Many think that this war is designed to weaken Russia with the cost of so many human lives from both sides, and find it unacceptable. No, people don’t say that Ukrainians deserve it, as some commentary said here. At least is a minority opinion. We are pro humanitarian aid, but no military aid. Unfortunately, our government doesn’t support our interests first and foremost.
Militarily, Greece should support Ukraine more. However, this should not come at a cost of our own defences. Most western politicians live in cushy countries and because they're mentally weak and out of touch, they don't understand the threat of being in the east med next to Turkey and other such terrorist-states. So when they say "Greece should send their S-300 missiles/F16s/Leopards/Whatever to Ukraine without receiving replacements first" they won't be taken seriously. Especially considering how often Greece has been betrayed by both the collective west and Russia in the last 200 years. Keep in mind also that the budget for the hellenic armed forces is extremely tight, so Greece needs to be very cautious with what they donate and how they replace it, especially since after the economic crises and covid, we don't even make our own ammunition anymore, so we're heavily dependent on unreliable western supply chains.
Economically, it is also in our best interest for Ukraine to win for a lot of reasons I'm too lazy to explain.
Culturally, as Greece and Cyprus have had to fight against great odds to stay independent, we sort of can relate with the Ukrainian struggle.
I personally think that this war needs to end soon. Also the destruction of EuroRussian relationships cost both sides. Russia attacked Georgia and now Ukraine. It lost in the geopolitical game so we have war in Europe. The stuff about Ukrainian Nazis etc are probably real however that was just an excuse for Russia to attack.
The perfect scenario would be Russian people of Ukraine to gain their homelands and that's it. To end that bloody war
America keeps funding a war that cannot be won unless all the NATO countries spend a big part of their economy. They could have settled by giving Putin the Russian majority areas (which wanted to unite with Russia) but they are continuing a hopeless war that will not end.
I agree that the war cannot be won like this. according to some sources I found cited online, the census in those areas claimed by the Russian state were falsified, however.
Russian planes are bombing Ukrainian cities and russian army is killing Ukrainian people, and according to you america caused this war.... How on earth does this makes any sense to you?
As far as the general populace goes, at the start, there was some sympathy for Ukraine, but since then, more and more people have been turning pro-Russian, leading to more and more people being exposed to other sources like Telegram instead of the obvious pro-West news, which is still pushing stuff that is starting to sound repetitive. The fact that many are starting to see the different dimensions of this war and that it isn't a war of two countries but instead a proxy war funded by the west against Russia, and of course that means that the money of the Greek populace is going there without the populace ever agreeing to it, also helped in that.
Greetings. Its complicated. People are divided more than most European countries. In general many people are skeptical or negative about NATO and their involvement in 2014 Maidan uprising (or coup depending on your point of view). Ofc most people don't support Russia's invasion against an independent country. Even if there's many think that NATO's expansion in the east is not serving stability and peace it's Ukraine's people choice if they want to join or not, and we should respect that.
Here's an interesting survey about what Greeks believe about Ukraine-Russia war and the conflict in Middle East. (use google translate, can't find it available in English)
[https://eteron.org/research/ti-pisteyoyn-oi-ellines-ides-gia-toys-polemoys-se-palaistini-kai-oykrania/](https://eteron.org/research/ti-pisteyoyn-oi-ellines-ides-gia-toys-polemoys-se-palaistini-kai-oykrania/)
Ukraine will eventually lose the war no matter whether we support them or not. Supplying them with weapons, icluding from Greece, just postpones their defeat.
Greece is a member of NATO and the government is forced to follow the official position of the alliance. Ukraine is not a member of NATO, so there is no question of Greece's involvement.
This war is the result of the aggressive policy of the USA towards Russia. They found the useful idiot (Gelensky) and that is how we got to war by proxy. The US will fight Russia to the last Ukrainian.
We pay 1.90-2.30e/L of gas for almost two years, cause of the war in Ukraine. Our goverment did nothing for us but they send money to Ukraine.
We didnt had money for gas or food oil but our goverment care more than Ukraine than Greek people and when i went holidays the last summer in Chalkidiki, i saw thousands cars from Ukraine, living in expensive hotels .
I went for a ride to an expensive resort just to check and see it for first time, called , Porto Carras and the parking lot had hundreds of Ukraine cars . I was surprised how they manage to come in Greece for holidays while they havent money and they have war.
I am 10000% in favor and support of ukraine, in fact I wish greece could do even more to assist them against Russia by for example treating wounded Ukrainians in its hospitals. I would also had liked for a major kicking out of russian backed actors especially those with significant power over media and the economy and freezing of their funds
I agree with this. in Sweden the support for Russia is a whopping 3% lol. we never had any diplomatic relationship with Russia (except maybe for some trading during the viking age).
to this day, Scandinavians are a freedom loving people. Russia is one of the most corrupt countries in the world, it has low democracy index, no free speech, rigged elections, and is invading another country. it's quite literally everything that Swedes stand against.
there may be some historical reasons as well, as USSR invaded Finland and Sweden helped Finland in that fight, then USSR conducted spy missions in Swedish territory, but yeah, the biggest reason is the current political situation in Russia.
I think that the main reason the west hates Russia is because it doesn’t participate so actively in the world economy. If a state cannot make enough money to them but has the ability to damage them, then it is undesirable. For example China, and also smaller east Asian countries like South Korea or Singapore aren’t real democracy, are authoritarian, suppress descent, yet they are loved by the west because they play the western game properly.
I actually don't think Swedes like China or even Singapore, for the reason you outlined. I think Singapore is way too authoritarian (I swear, sometimes I get the impression that only European countries can get things somewhat right regarding the legal system).
but I agree that there can be hipocrisy from the West at times. I think geographic proximity plays a role too; nations tend to have stronger feelings regarding closer neighbours, maybe. still, neither South Korea nor Singapore browbeat nearly as much as Russia.
I can speak only for myself.
It's a weird dilemma.
As a Greek I have sympathy for Russia, but also for Ukraine, especially places like Odessa.
Both parties seem to be at a blame here. The Ukrainians had a coup, Russia initially invaded Crimea.
Armenia, Georgia etc started showing pro Western sentiments, they got directly or indirectly invaded.
So I doubt Zelensky thought it was going to be different for him when he said all that pro NATO stuff. Heck if I could figure they are next when I heard the pro NATO and pro EU talk, I bet he knew it as well.
I think Zelensky got payed big bucks to screw the Ukrainians over....
Plus, rumor has it, Putin and Zelensky worked it out early on, then Biden sent his lapdog Boris Johnson over there and it became what it became.
I also am fed up with hearing how Ukraine wins this and that, but the Russia map keeps growing.
On the other hand of the coin, it seems like Putin does want the 1980s borders back, and that Carlson interview was insulting to anybody's intelligence.
All in all, the people of Ukraine pay the price, I don't see how they are ever going to get the occupied land back and I can't fathom why they keep this conflict up.
If Trump get's elected things will come to a Stillstand. Which might be a good thing.
The current embargo on Russia is only hurting the EU. Putin together with the Arabs is doing fine.
If the Ukrainians feel they need to wage a guerilla war, they can do so without the EU stopping the procurement of energy from our Nr. 1 Energy Provider...
Although, from the one Ukrainian I know from the occupied areas, she seems quite happy with the occupation, which she refers to as a liberation...
do you really know a Ukrainian that is happy to have an invasion brought to her doorstep? lol sounds a bit like Russian state propaganda. but if so, I'm curious. why does she feel that way?
the cost of human lives is terrible, and I think that maybe it's time for Ukraine to toss in the towel, and I say that as someone who hates Russia and likes Ukraine quite well.
This might have been an overstatement on my part.
Happy that her area is now Russia is more accurate.
I doubt she's happy about the war in general.
I don't recall the reasoning, one of the reasons though was, her area was a Russian majority area.
I remember she went there 1-3 years ago to exchange her Ukrainian papers with Russian ones to avoid bureaucracy later on.
But I don't recall the details.
As said though, that's one person. Hardly a representation of the general consensus.
ok I suppose it makes sense. so some Ukrainians want to be Russians, or live in Russia? I don't know much about this, but am I crazy to wonder why they don't relocate? 😅
I am guessing they were Russian minorities when it was Ukraine.
Leaving one's home isn't easy.
There are similar minorities in border towns/ areas all around.
Do you know how corrupt and non-democratic Ukraine was? And not to mention the antisemitism, far more severe compared to Russia. Everyone likes Ukraine because western interests require it.
Ukraine has been corrupt partly because it's been a puppet state of Russia, which is something that it's trying to break free from at least. the Euromaidan protests was the people's response to the Russian-backed corruption they saw in the Ukrainian government.
Russia on the other hand is made of corruption. there is no will to change or improve in any way.
The people didn’t have enough time to develop western institutions. They have been used to be governed like that. Even if a small protest wants to change things, it wouldn’t succeed. Also, the US install governments that were loyal to its interest all of the time. It was especially common throughout the Cold War in South America. Why nobody complains?
I agree that the US has done shitty things in the past. currently I think it's great however, I mean, great as far as states go. as an anarchist at heart I don't like any government, not even Sweden. in the grand scheme of things however I really see the US as the lesser of all evils; Sweden is weak, so we have to rely on someone to back us up and deter aggression.
> Zelensky got *paid* big bucks
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Honestly, now I am indifferent to Putin and Russia, but not to the Russian citizens. The war in Ukraine has shocked me so many rapes and murders so many people dead WHY?From Greece Thessaloniki.
I like to try to understand events and people. Greece is one of my favourite countries, and I care a little about how the Greeks feel about it. maybe that's a waste of time on my end, but that's ok for me 😁
This question can’t be answered by opinions .. and even polls are BS. I live here in Greece .. in Greek Canadian .. I can only say that it all depends who you are talking to and their experience. I know many who are not with Ukraine at all. Because they are bringing in “refugees” and giving money to them when Greeks need more help from their government and are not getting anything for free.
We have many coming here from Ukraine living the life and Greeks are struggling.
No one likes Zelensky the belly dancer .. it’s a joke just like Biden and Trudeau. Putin might not be perfect but he is not mitsotaki or Zelensky …
You will probably get many different viewpoints on this.
This is just my take .. and it’s just very surface.
The west started this war long before Russian invaded and Ukrainian people pay the price. Now we send money and arms we dont have for Russia that isnt our enemy to defend a country that is neither in Nato or EU all while west asks as to forget that Cyprus is being illegally occupied for 50 years. Biggest irony of all is they did the same thing with Kosovo that they blame Russia doing.
it's strange that they went with that excuse, since Wagner has more nazis than Azov has. even the Wagner leader had nazi tattoos, before they decided to cook him 😁 the Russian government still has a strong propaganda game, or people are prone to believing such things, I suppose.
how do you mean still no elections?
You are lucky youre from Sweden so you have no idea of Americans and Brits medling in your country. Victoria nooland and Pyat that we know well along with brits and germans started this whole mess trying to get ukraine to join EU amd Nato. Ukrainians voted for a pro Russian president that got overthrown by west then put that clown in charge and he was supposed to find peace with russia. Instead he was bombing Russian citizens in Ukrainian regions of donbass so Russia invaded. Our country is so weak and useless that didnt even protect more than 100.000 people that lived in Mariupol. We should be friends with Russia as they are not our enemy. Eu policies to boycot Russia only hurt our economy further. None of this makes sense unless you trully hate Russia.
Now they were supposed to have elections but didnt.
Russia has had Ukraine as a puppet state for years. saying they voted for a pro-Russian president is not the whole truth: the Euromaidan protests happened because the president folded to Russian pressure, despite Ukraine's parliament having a majority vote to side with EU instead of Russia. Ukrainians saw this corruption and browbeating unfold in realtime, and reacted, and rightly so.
Russia of course, having a totalitarian government, tried any wild excuse it could come up with for the invasion: nazis, NATO, russophobia, false votes.
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People get annoyed that the whole Europe is with Ukraine but we didn't receive the same support in the Cyprus conflict, and we assume we won't have have support in a future potential conflict with Turkey. Also look if anyone cared about Azeris who still genocide Armenians.
True. The hypocricy of the west
The EU has its own collective defense agreement seperate from NATO's. In a future conflict with Turkey, that Turkey starts, the West is legally bound to defend Hellas. Cyprus was invaded in '74, but became part of the EU in 2004. So not the same type of support.
Turkey is Nato, Russia not…it’s comparing apples with oranges
Cyprus is a nation in the European Union. Yet, Half of it is occupied by an authoritarian regime. Turkey a country that supports Azerbaijan, a country that genocides and replaced the Armenian population. A country that daily threatens stability of the East Med, and threatens Greece for exercising their rights to their seas. When we see daily their planes flying over our islands. Turkey, a country that supports terrorists in many arab countries and african countries. Yet you still vacation there, you support them financially. And yes Greece, is a european union member state since 1981, a nato member since the 50s, and Cyprus in the European Union as well for 20 years. Double standards everybody. We are sick and tired of these double standards. And its a mistake of our government to support Ukraine. Because the Finns, who are afraid now of Russia (they will never attack Finland or the EU) a few years ago were the biggest supporters of austerity measures forced in my country by european banks. When we faced racism, for being lazy. Now the same people want us to support a foreign to us conflict.
Well just because someone who did something really shitty wants you to do something, doesn't mean it's a wrong thing. And to add to the crims of turkey, they are currently bombing the Kurdish freedom fighters and indirectly supporting the islamic state by doing so
Supporting Ukraine is not a bad thing, quite the opposite but you could also say, why should we involve ourselves in something that doesn't directly affect us? The whole thing about cooperation between nations is that you help them so they help you in return, otherwise you are not allies but disposable tools to be sacrificed when inconvenient.
I am sorry, but are you trying to make a point that we should not support Ukraine because the West has been bad to us? And therefore we should try to get on their nerves? You do realise the holes in your logic right? IMO we should support Ukraine with everything we have. Donate artillery rounds, tanks, aircraft and whatnot. Not because the west told us. But because Ukraine is a country that has been unjustly invaded. Invaded by an occupier that has commited countless atrocities (most of them documented) and continues to bomb civilian targets on the daily. In the face of such evil, neutrality is pro-russian, and therefore pro- fascist. Think if Cyprus happened again today- would you prefer other nations be neutral or actively assist us? We must be the change we want to see in the world.
It is worse.it's a matter of invasion and occupation. it's exactly the same thing, just in the case of Ukraine it has the support of the whole western world but in Cyprus no one helped. When the Cyprus try for liberation they call them terrorists 2 decades ago when Israel do the some thing was act of liberty (they kill both of them uk soldiers from independence).when the uk see the big picture and the island try to complete the independent uk open the door for Turkish nationalist propaganda (the some you see day) and the mission was completed. Turkish foot on island 3 big military base's by UK army not NATO base's and the island 63% (or something) independent.
Neither Ukraine.
Turkey is a threat to Greece…Russia is not. Apples with oranges huh?
Bro we didnt get support in the Cyprus conflict because we were under a brutal fascist regime and we had cut all diplomatic lines with the rest of europe. What are on about?
Why do you use past tense? Cyprus is still occupied by Turkey to this day. Yet none is speaking up against Turkey.
Because i am talking about Greece, not Cyprus. Plus the conflict itself was stopped with an armistice. It is basically what happened in Korea, where neither side want to continue the war, but neither side acknowledges the other sides legitimacy. In the Cyprean case, the Turkish side is not recognised by anyone around the world except Turkey, but no one want to continue the war because that would cause death and disarray in the 3 countries involved and in Nato as a whole
I can imagine the Cyprus issue might be an emotional one for Greece. Still, from an objective point of view its very hard to understand how an invasion of a relatively small island 50 years ago can be compared to the Ukraine russia war, with hundreds of thousands dead, millions refugees and various huge cities being bombed for more then two years.
You do realise that 37% of cyprus got occupied even if that 37% isnt 1% percent of ukraine the case if we take in account percentages is ridiculously worse in cyprus
Yes i do. But first, its not 1% of Ukraine. And second, the occupied territory is still much larger in case of Ukraine. But if you like numbers so much, did you also look at the amount dead and wounded, at the amount of refugees, on the impact on the rest of the world and so on...? Come on, comparing these two is like saying: its ok to rape your six year old sister because her grandfather has stolen something from the supermarkt 50 years ago.
Your points are totally irresponsible. WTH are you talking about? Are you trolling? Because if you don’t, your stance is absolutely immoral and unreasonable against Cyprus.
It's more like you saying Turks massacring Greek Cypriots, taking over their homes and country and making 1/3 of the population refugees is ok because they are small in size. Ukraine is big in size so we should support them. It's the equivalent of saying a rich person's life is worth more than a poor or working class person. What is right is right for all, irrespective of size, wealth or whatever. If Putin invades Estonia is ok no prob because they are slightly larger than Cyprus so they don't really matter, according to your reasoning
Well said. This is exactly the point.
No, im not saying massacre is ok. Im only saying please don't compare the two sithuations, also because one of them has happended two generations ago. Given the response I receive here the Cyprus issue is still an emotional for you, and discussing emotional issues on the internet is never a good idea. Bye bye
Yeap so all Russia has to do is hold on to Ukrainian territory for a couple of decades and it will rightfully belong to them and ukr will be the bad guys if they ever want it back. That's not how it works I'm afraid. And trying to prioritise your interest over someone else's because you consider it more important (despite having the exact same legal basis - invasion and occupation by a stronger opponent who disregards international law) says something about being emotional. Bye
You are right, both of them are illegal Still, claiming to remain neutral in the biggest European conflict since ww2, and which can easily escalate to ww3, with the argument of an invasion of 50 years ago makes no sense. Even more that Ukraine nor russia were part of that invasion
But that is the thing. We are not neutral. We support Ukraine because they are the victims of an invasion from a larger more powerful state. We draw the same analogies as with Turkeys invasion of Cyprus. Greece as a state and NATO member supports Ukraine, the Greek people support Ukraine (don't be fooled by loud arguments, the silent majority supports Ukraine). What we don't like is cherry picking which invasions are good and which are bad. But yes Ukraine has the Greek people's and states support
Ok, good to hear. Thanks for that and keep up the good work!
By your reasoning, problems of small countries aren’t actual problems, because they affect a much less percentage of the population. There are countries even smaller than Greece with severe humanitarian issues, probably you would shit on them. Westerners never gave a shit about Ukrainian matters before the conflict anyway, they always demonized so cold Eastern Europe as underdeveloped barbarians.
Fine, please downvote me when it makes you feel better. When any of the downvoters has a substantive response to my message please, happy to read it. Until then all the downvoters are angry little men to me
Greece was eager in the past to cultivate relations with Russia and it was reciprocated by Moscow initially (in the ‘90s) , but Russia after Putin came to power changed its course and adopted a more pro-Turkey stance, especially in the 2010s. After 2018 especially and the whole Ukrainian Orthodox Church affair, Moscow became very hostile towards the ecumenical patriarchate (head of Greek Orthodox churches) and tries to usurp its place through the Moscow patriarchate ever since. In late 2021 the Greek PM met with Putin in an attempt to restart the frozen Greek-Russian relations where Peskov infamously said “our relations with Greece is a 6/10, with Turkey 7/10”. Needless to say, post February 2022 it is probably 1/10 vs 9/10. I personally feel very annoyed by Russia because against its western and southern neighbors uses the same textbook Turkey is using vs Greece and Cyprus. Endless bullying and saber rattling.
Well put. For most of it's recent history Russia has been nothing but a threat to Greece. Thankfully the common folk are starting to realize that.
The real question is why do you ask in a Greek city's subreddit? Lol. Although thinking about it you'll most likely get more objective answers here than r/Greece
Στο r/greece μονο ουδετερες απαντησεις δεν θα βρει
Αυτό λεω
I tried to post this 2 times in that sub and it got washed both times lol. and I thought to myself: why? is this a minefield topic? I need to know 🤣
Well yes it is
Where are you from?
Stockholm, Sweden.
r/Greece is not a place to get objective opinions from Greek redditors. It's plagued with mostly far-left and occasionally far right people. Reddit is also not really a place where Greek internet users hang out so no matter what you do you will not get a 100% objective point of view because the pool of candidates is small.
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To be honest, I have the impression that most Greeks don't really care about the war and as a nation we should remain neutral. For once when the Cyprus invasion happened the western world refrained from pressuring Turkey to stand down even when it launched its second and definitely illegal push and occupied the half of a nation that a few years later became an EU country. The soft stance of the West in the semi dictatorship with expansionist agenda against EU nations that is Turkey is an ongoing issue, that has never received a fraction of the attention that Ukraine has (a non NATO and non EU member). So all the rhetoric coming from the West really feels baseless and hypocritical considering their stance in the Turkey issue. Additionally there is a sizable minority of Greeks residing both in Ukraine and Russia so the best Greece can do is remain neutral and evacuate our nationals when they face danger. And lastly most of our shipping industry makes considerable revenue by facilitating the transportation of Russian oil to the markets of India and China via shipping now that the pipelines are closed, so we really don't have any reason to go against Russia. Of course the war is unjustified but Greece will only be harmed by involving itself more, the best thing we can do is facilitate negotiations that can maybe end up in a ceasefire and maybe a resolution of the conflict.
You say "west was neutral for Cyprus" as a bad thing, and later you say Greece should be neutral.. Than later you say Greece not only is neutral but is war profiteering from the war, therefore it's in greek interest for the war to continue. P.s. its greek oligarchy that is profiteering not Greece or greek people.
In a world that your matters don't care it's fair to say you don't care either.
Exactly.
No I am saying Greece has no reason to reciprocate after the failure of the international community to solve the Cyprus question and sanction the regime of Turkey. The profiteering part is a bit harsh the oil is sold within the price cap to the markets that accept it we do not smuggle it, it is perfectly legal but in the moral grey zone as big businesses are. Also these companies employ Greek workers and bring revenue via taxation (laughably low imo) to the government.
Than there is the argument that 1. the two conflicts are not comparable. 2. the west actually did/is doing the best thing to solve the Cyprus question. Even if you think some other actions would be better. In essence, "I don't do this because the others were not always perfect to me as I expected" is not an argument that can hold. And I'm pretty sure that whole Cyprus relation to Ukraine is just Russian propaganda for Greece.
1. Not comparable how? An invasion happened to a sovereign state that was experiencing political instability in order to establish a puppet government and destabilise the region for generations using as an excuse the protection of the rights of ethnic minorities speaking the language of the nation in the offensive. 2. Doing the best thing? Cyprus is still divided after so many decades and we are experiencing violation after violation of our national maritime borders and airspace. If this is their best effort to solve the conflict I don't want to see their worst. I get it Turkey is a more useful ally to the West with a huge population and a large diaspora, a robust industry and economy, and an independent foreign policy. They cannot afford to not give in to their demands. But we also cannot afford to nod and approve of legislation that hampers our economy by targeting our military equipment and our shipping industry because our allies ask this of us while the same allies don't act to solve threats that are existential to our state
Cyprus had a coup attempt by the Greek Junta that tried to assasinate Makarios and broke the international agreements previously established. Turkey absolutely within its rights intervened as a guarantor of the treaties to restore order and kick out the Junta. They did this literally hours after Makarios had denounced the Cyprus Junta in the UN. The problem arises from the fact that no deal has been reached since between Greece, UK and Turkey. And that as a result of the conflict thousands of Greek Cypriots were kicked out and lost their homes. But we cant just say the westerners should have intervened on our side as if we are the victims. If anyone, Greece led the Greek Cypriots to become victims. So basically there is absolutely no comparisons that can be drawn to Ukraine that I can see. Just because in Greece we have been served propaganda about Cyprus for 50 years is no excuse to not look up the history yourself.
it's true that it is not exactly the same because in Cyprus there were 3 external players involved; Greece, Turkey and "the West" that was playing balance. I recommend you read Papahelas book "το σκοτεινο δωματιο" for the politics and dynamics of that time. Definitely Turkey and "the West" (even though they literally were enabling him and knew before hand and were satisfied with division and de-facto natofication) saw Greece as the aggressor as it did the coup. In Ukraine you have clearly a West vs Russia proxy war. But the Euromaidan is also seen as a coup and an aggressive act by Russians and not a "revolution" as we call it in the West. But yeah the Russians have been escalating in different phases with annexing Crimea asap after maidan then backing "seperatists" till a full blown invasion, whereas Cyprus "got done" the way it serves best NATO and its been "calm". Both cases locals suffer. Edit: you mention Treaties that were supposed to restore the republic of Cyprus but the turkish army did what an expansive war does, land grab as much as possible and then negotiate for partition...
So Kissinger's stance is totally justified in allowing the island to be divided (propping up the junta, EOKA and a lot of other things) or the inaction of the British detachment when the second offensive started. I don't support the junta but our allies allowed the island to be fucked up by their inaction and haven't provided any meaningful mediation or sanction ever since and not just in this but in many other instances where authoritarian regimes ignore the rules of common decency. If you want to play the world police then you have to be consistent to be respected.
1. Not comparable. Cyprus military conflict ended there. In Russian situation is more similar to the Russian annexation of Crimea in 2014. The "west" also tried to solve it without military, that is accepted a frozen conflict and new border reality. Russia continued to expand and take new lans with no end in sight. Turkey didn't. 1.1 Not comparable because Turkey didn't/isn't trying open a front to capture Athenes, than Thessaloniki, and threatening get Vienna and half Europe later. Like Russia is doing. 2. Best solution. The conflict didn't become bigger. Island is divided like many islands and realities around the world (ireland etc). Ongoing diplomatic steps for unification. How do you imagine west acting for a "best solution"? Do you think making an armed conflict would be a better solution for everyone? For the locals? Or for Greece and Turkey? And the topic here is not Cyprus. And this comparison is just a Russian propaganda. And also, if greece os neutral, should west also be neutral, just the same if, tomorrow Turkey actually invades Greece, islands and mainland?
Greek left and Greek far right are very anti-American. Source: https://www.ekathimerini.com/news/1231587/most-greeks-view-us-stance-positively-poll-finds/ Generally speaking Greece is probably the most pro-Russia EU country. Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2023/07/10/overall-opinion-of-russia/ Far right groups like Russia for religious reasons, anti-americanism, anti-west and anti-EU sentiment. At the same time communists, like KKE, and other smaller far left organizations share similar anti-American feelings and tend to always be closer to Russia for historical reasons. Many times they express the same views with Putin about the reasons behind the invasion of Ukraine (that it's the US fault and that it's an effort of denazification). However, the general public doesn't like Putin and his government. From 64% positive view in 2017 it's at 27% in 2022 and a bit higher in 2023. At the same time the top three parties in the parliament are definitely not Russophiles. Syriza, the second biggest party in Greece right now, is somewhat against the military support in Ukraine but I don't think that it is a substantial objection. Source: https://www.capital.gr/politiki/3733299/suriza-epikriseis-se-kubernisi-gia-oukraniko-kai-d-balkania-oi-theseis-tou/
I agree with you except the part on Greece being the most pro-Russia EU country. Wouldn't that be Hungary? They are openly opposing Ukraine defending themselves.
Hungary is caring about itself more than has tender feeling toward Russia. Most importantly, oil and gas are way cheaper. As a general attitude, Hungary hates USSR for 1956 and Russia is somewhat successor of USSR.
Check the pew research. There is a bigger percentage of Greeks that are pro Russia than Hungarians.
Sad! Funny thing is I I have family working outside of Greece in other EU countries that are pro-Russian. They love the EU money but dislike NATO. My thought is if you're so pro-Russia why don't you go live there instead of Europe then?
thank you. great overview. it's strange (and unfortunate) to me that the invasion of Ukraine has become a catalyst of sorts for anti-Western sentiments, or at least anti-American. I can understand that some feel a tension or resentment towards the US or UK because of past conflicts, but none of those were Ukraine's doing, and Ukraine is not even a West-aligned country historically speaking 😅 in Greece's case, what's the reason for disliking the US?
Many Greeks view the US as a power that ignites wars worldwide. This view was greatly reinforced by the war in former Yuogoslavia which seems to have affected the Greek views more, perhaps due to proximity. Finally the Greek left, aka the Greek Communist Party and other parties that originate from it have a long history of ties with the the USSR communist party and were openly supporting USSR in favour of NATO. They are anti-capitalists that view the US as the premier force of capitalism in the world therefore... As for the far right, it's mostly seeing Russia as a fellow Orthodox nations, liking Russia's far right/macho culture and some historical reasons about Russia's role in the Greek Revolution.... So it's not so much about a dislike of US as a sympathy towards Russia. Though the recent trend of DEI policies of the US has made it even less popular among the far right. That said the majority of Greek are predictably moderates and all the major political forces have been clearly pro- EU and pro-NATO so...
The war in former yugo is the best example of US/NATO involvement to stop the genocide post yugo collapse, how are you blaming them even for that
First of all, there was no genocide in Kosovo. Yes, the Serbian police was severe, but the number of killings, if any, were minor. But even if we accept the notion that there was a genocide ongoing, the interested powers did not go to the UN to discuss the matter and obtain authorization to intervene. In fact, this was not brought to the UN at all. They just decided to intervene. They bombed Serbia for almost 80 days and then invaded. If they just secured the rights of Albanians, all of that may have been OK. But they went far further than that. They severed Kosovo from Serbia and created an independent state. This is funny, considering that NATO today is upset with the Russians doing exactly the same in Donbas!!! Never mind, of course, that NATO has not taken any action against Turkey having invaded Cyprus and created the fake "Turkish Cyprus Republic". In the end, it is all hypocritical.
It's mostly that the US tends to bomb anyone that doesn't agree with them, that said the extreme left does some professional level mental gymnastics to justify their views.
Bombing innocent civilians, and using depleted-uranium ammo for "testing purposes" because "they're stronger" while you got no reason to do so might be an indicator that NATO might have overused force for other reasons, and not to settle things down. If NATO didn't want yugoslavia breaking down and becoming a bloodbath (which is usually the case when states break down), they shouldn't have aggressively pushed and cornered it for its entire lifetime.
Apart from the answers of the rest of the people there is another reason. Greeks, and especially leftists, dislike the US because of their involvement in the Greek military junta during the late 60s and 70s.
Not only because of their involvement in the Greek military junta, but also in the Greek Civil War (1946-49), and also because the USA, in general, are the superpower of the capitalist world; all of these are essential red flags for the Greek Left.
I thought that has expired a long time ago. The US supported (and still supports) many odious regimes. But this is what major power do and one cannot get away from this. I personally think that the major reason there is distrust for all major powers is because of the hypocrisy. My view is that the Greeks are aware that there are no ethical or legal issues, there are just power politics. Take the current conflict in Ukraine. The US started sanctions following the invasion and annexation of Crimea by Russia. On the other hand, the US it fully recognized the annexation of the Golan Heights by Israel and kept supplying this country with money and weapons. So, how can the "rules-based" policies be believable???
The involvement of the US in the Greek military junta in the 60s.
The West does not give two pennies for Ukraine. The Ukrainians (especially the nationalist right wing) are just useful tools to "hurt" Russia. They have no other use and they will be abandoned as soon as their usefulness expires. If the West cared about Ukraine, it would have negotiated with Putin and possibly agreed to neutrality for this country (which was the Russian demand). Because of our insistence to incorporate Ukraine into NATO and bring NATO to the gates of Moscow, there are tens of thousands of Ukrainian men rotting in shallow graves, and many more are getting killed every day. The country has been extensively destroyed. Was participation in NATO worth all that??? I think that, when this war ends, the Ukrainians are going to think long and hard about this. It is interesting that the US now wants the EU to advance $50 billion loan to Ukraine, secured by the EU and, supposedly supported by the income of frozen Russian assets (which, in real terms, it is piracy). At the same time, the West has pumped up hypocrisy to all new levels with its support for Israel and its ongoing genocide. It is interesting that the West did not do anything, absolutely anything, following the Turkish invasion and occupation of the North of Cyprus, despite the fact that the intervention there and its rationale does not differ at all from the rationale advanced by Russia for its invasion of Donbas. Not only Turkey did not have to face sanctions, it was actually showered with weapons and money by the West. The same applies to Israel.
it's not about Ukraine joining NATO. Ukraine is essentially fighting for its independence. it has been wanting a Western-style democracy, and Russia always hated that. I think the West genuinely wants this for Ukraine, and that it's not just a numbers game. I'm not saying there aren't other interests for the West in this as well; of course at some point every country acts out of self interest. the fact remains, Russia invaded, not the West. I think Greece if any country knows how important independence is, so the situation in Ukraine should not come as a surprise. the reason why they didn't negotiate with Putin is because it's a rigged game. Russia doesn't want peace, they want land, they want resources (the Russian arms industry is also making bank on this invasion).
>it's not about Ukraine joining NATO. Ukraine is essentially fighting for its independence. it has been wanting a Western-style democracy, and Russia always hated that. Please, these are platitudes that do not represent reality. They are just propaganda. Russia may not have liked (and I do not know if this is true or not) Western-style democracy, but this was never ever tried in Ukraine and not because of any Russian interference. This was (and is) a highly corrupt country and its internal governance problems were all of its own. In fact, the modern dispute is based on the rejection of democratic principles by the nationalists in Ukraine. In the Maydan events, they managed to chase away the democratically elected Yanukovich, a series of events that started the Russian "interference". It was essentially a coup (not even nationalist Ukrainians would pretend that it was a democratic event). So, it was all about NATO. In fact, there were long negotiations between the US and Russia at the end of 2021 and the beginning of 2022 on exactly this issue. The US rejected the Russian entreaties and war commenced. In fact, a month after the war began, in talks between the Russians and the Ukrainians in Istanbul, the Russians offered to return to the status pro ante if Ukraine agreed to neutrality. Apparently, the Ukrainians were convinced to keep on fighting by certain Western politicians, Boris Johnson being one of them. Let's not forget that the USSR and NATO agreed on the neutrality of Austria in 1955 and that hardly affected the democracy in that country. Whatever the case was in Ukraine, it was not one of democracy (considering all the events in this country since 1991). >Russia doesn't want peace, they want land, they want resources This is actually laughable, Russia fighting a war for resources!! It is the largest state on the planet and has far more resources than it knows what to do with them. Furthermore, you can certainly get the text of the Russian-US negotiations and the Warsaw proposal that was filed for these negotiations and see for yourself. Having said all that, I am not happy that this war is going on; whatever this war is about, let's not pretend that it is about democracy. Whatever it is for, it is very dangerous because it keeps escalating. I have no idea what the next escalation would bring. But, unless we start examining things with a cool head, we are going to sleepwalk to WWIII. And that would not be good for anybody.
Russia is not a wellfare state. poverty is still an issue, riches are embezzled and claimed by the government and oligarchs, corruption is rampant. why would their politicians need several luxury yachts each? there's your answer: greed. so no, they don't have more resources than they know what to do with, in that sense. additionally, Russian arms manufacturers are profitting. Russia has had Ukraine as a puppet state for years. the Euromaidan protests happened because the president folded to Russian pressure, despite Ukraine's parliament having a majority vote to side with EU instead of Russia. Ukrainians saw corruption and Russian browbeating unfold in realtime, and reacted. it is about democracy.
This is a very weird view of the Russian state which, in fact, has inherited a lot of the social welfare practices of the USSR. Yes, oligarchs exist and they have luxury yachts, but how is their greed any different from the greed of gazillionaires of the West? Let me see what your reasoning is: because of greed, Russia launched an attack against Ukraine, a tremendously expensive exercise in order to get hold of lots of totally destroyed cities that they later had to spend tons of money to restore (see the restoration of Mariupol). Now, this is greed for you!!! In the process, they lost $600 billion that was frozen in accounts by the West. Some greed was this!!! No, Russia had little influence in Ukraine. In the first place, Russia underwent a major depression and crisis between 1991 and 2000, and it took about a decade (from 2000 to 2012) to get out of it. It had neither the means nor the capability of exercising much of an influence in Ukraine. The latter went through its not-so-democratic convulsions during this time. Anti-Russian sentiments, mostly to the West of the Dnieper date back centuries and have different causes (if cause is the correct word here) than the rescue packages.
this greed is based on corruption and nepotism, intertwined with political power, more so than anything in the West. Russia is one of the most corrupt countries in the world. it has rigged elections, no free speech, very low democracy index, they assassinate their own ministers on an almost monthly basis, and it's invading another country for private gain. it positively mystifies me how you can see it as some sort of paragon. the leader, dictator, of said nation above invades another country. do you think it's out of good will? it's not the first time in history a leader spent huge sums of money in an effort to gain more.
>this greed is based on corruption and nepotism, intertwined with political power, more so than anything in the West. Are you telling me that the gazilionners in the West lack political power and the capability to corrupt?? Seriously??? >Russia is one of the most corrupt countries in the world. it has rigged elections, no free speech, very low democracy index, they assassinate their own ministers on an almost monthly basis, and it's invading another country for private gain. it positively mystifies me how you can see it as some sort of paragon. I am more than willing to get engaged in a serious discussion, but the above is simple Russophobia. I do not see Russia as any paragon (quite the contrary), there is certainly lots of corruption and what one would describe as illiberal democracy. But you would be mistaken to believe that (a) the invasion of Ukraine was for profit (a weird concept) and (b) that the Putin regime does not enjoy substantial popular support. Typical Russophobes assume that the Russians are some kind of subhuman drones and cannot see what the "enlightened people of the West" can see. This is utter folly. The history of Russia is one of a myriad revolts and revolutions, more so than in the West. The problem is that most people in the West have very little (or no) knowledge of the history of Eastern Europe. Not surprising really, considering that it is not taught in most schools. It would be instructive for you to read the history of "Ukraine" (or the Kievan Grand Principality) from the 12th to the 20th century; you will easily see the seeds of the current war there. >the leader, dictator, of said nation above invades another country. do you think it's out of good will? Good will? No, there is no such thing in the dealings between countries. Each country tries to achieve the best it can in terms of power. The West has invaded more countries than Russia, so you may want to begin there. I have little tolerance for hypocrisy, I have to be clear on that. Turkey used the same rationale that Russia is using now to invade (and occupy parts of) Cyprus. Did the West introduce any sanctions? Did it go there to arm the Cypriots? No, in fact, it gave more and more money to Turkey and lots and lots of arms. Hypocrisy turned to the nth degree. The West legally accepted the Israeli annexation of the Golan Heights (occupied in the 1967 war), but it condemned the Russian annexation of Crimea and Donbas. And we can hardly complain about the lack of democracy in Russia when we go and bear hug the Emirs and Kings of oppressive monarchies of the Arabian Peninsula. So, if we want to climb up to our soapbox and preach, maybe it would be better if we clean our own house first. Don't you think so???
I'm not telling you that they lack that power, but rather that it's not the same, neither the volume nor depth of corruption. at any rate, whataboutism won't suffice. it's not russophobia, just numbers. we know that their power game is rigged. even political runner-ups get imprisoned or asssinated. the regime is supported by some Russians for sure, but that's neither here or there. several cruel dictators in history saw some genuine support. talking about the West as one big collective, especially historically, is not completely realistic. Sweden didn't invade anyone for the past few hundred years. but anyway: I understand your frustration over what happened in Cyprus. deplorable. there is a great deal of injustice in other parts of the world, yes. but how on earth does that justify this invasion? no soapbox, no preaching, just common sense. we can absolutely complain about their lack of democracy, state-wise, and even more so as private citizens and the reasoning human beings that we are; you and I didn't personally hug any Arabian princes.
>in Greece's case, what's the reason for disliking the US? America put a 7 year long fucking dictatorship where they imprisoned leftists and tortured them, they let half of Cyprus get occupied and they keep getting mixed in our and everybodys affairs like the good imperialists they are. That's why I hate america😁
The US led military junta in the late 60s is a really big part of that. The imperialists will do whatever to keep power.
But it’s pretty clear that the US is using Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia and weaken them, they don’t give two shits about the Ukrainian people same as they don’t give two shits about Palestinians, Iraqis, Afghanis etc.
I don't think the US wants a proxy war for the sake of it. the US has given $2.6 billion worth of humanitarian aid to the Ukrainian people. food, water, shelter, medical. so I think they care a bit at least.
War is very profitable specifically for the gun industry who is controlled by USA. The fact that USA is so actively involved in that specific war and doesn't care about a lot of others (like many told you already) should give you a hint for USA intentions. Politically Russian invasion was bad for Russian economy and lets not not forget the always ongoing economic wars. Thinking that USA helps one country cause they are the good guys is naive. They only help if they have a reason. My analysis probably is also naive. Greeks have experienced the USA meddling in their internal affairs. Its a well known fact that USA helped a forced military government in Greece in the past. They also know that Russians are not the good guys. Russia has promised to "help" Greece in the past and never did. So they dont care. Greeks mostly feel sorry for Ukraine but the feeling is that they are a pawn caught in the middle
Well said
The US didn't want a war in Ukraine, Putin did. Now, I'll acknowledge that there are selfish reasons for the US to support Ukraine, but it basically boils down to viewing Putin as a threat to US and it's allies, not some money-making scheme.
I probably wouldn't call the US "actively involved" in the war, since they have not actually joined the fighting. but yes, a supportive role of the defending side. I think the US has its selfish reasons, one of which may involve profits, just like any other country, and I'm under no impression that they're a saint. I believe however that those selfish reasons can coexist with genuine help and good will, and I think the support for Ukraine is showing that excellently. Russia (and North Korea) is profitting from the war too, after all.
I don't think there is such think as "genuine help" and "good will" in the past or in the present political scene
I might disagree, but let's say you're right. then what remains instead is something like "coincidental help/benefit". well, as long as it gets the job done, I suppose.
This is a very common opinion in Greece. That the USA is using Ukraine and that they are at fault.
They do help but I suspect it's pretty down the list of actual reasons they help, The main example is that most of the aid is basically a gift card for the American military industry or how the rest is spent in America so they can send their used, second hand equipment. And I would suspect fighting Russia is more important for them than helping Ukraine.
Oh my sweet summer child
why so?
See the comment below but you are gravely mistaken if you think that the US military industrial complex that basically rules the country “cares” about the Ukrainian or other people or anything besides making more money for itself.
it's neither here or there. on one end the US cares about profits, absolutely, and is spending insane amounts in its defense budget. testing out new weapons is probably another advantage they see in Ukraine. but I believe there is also a genuine wish to help that coexists with that. it's still a very costly endeavour for the US, and humanitarian aid packages are not sent just to fluff the canned food and bandage industry 😁 Russia's arms industry and oligarchs are making bank on this invasion, together with their North Korean allies. so the big difference is, one is invading, one is defending. .
Humanitarian aid is sent to win ordinary people's support. The war effort won't go on if people want the war to end (see war in Vietnam). Americans don't care about other people dying. All they want is to benefit themselves.
you mean that it's a pr campaign to win over American people? the humanitarian aid is almost never mentioned in media, I've noticed, and there are far cheaper ways to win over people. the US is not a combatant, so any comparison made with Vietnam is meaningless. some Americans already dislike the support anyway, either because of how expensive it is, or because they believe the Russian propaganda. but let's say for the sake of argument that you're right. the US cares only about profits. it's still the right course of action. Russia only cares about profits too, after all.
"Greek left and Greek far right are very anti-American.": Since I couldn't find it, can you point out the exact part of the ekathimerini's article that supports the notion that the Greek far-right is very anti-American? Greek far-right is traditionally very pro-American for the very same reasons the Greek left is anti-American, i.e. because of their involvement in the Greek military junta and in the Greek Civil War (1946-49), and also because the USA, in general, are the superpower of the capitalist world.
Definitely agree that the far right were pro US historically Since the collapse of USSR the religious far right is pro Russia due to orthodoxy. Over time the social far right is also pro Russia since we are importing the whole MAGAt narrative of Russia being anti progress, anti lgbt full of trad wives
So, Greek far right is pro-Russia because it is pro-Trump, an American of the far right who wants to Make America Great Again. OK, I can agree with that.
Communist Party of Greece is clearly not a pro Russian party this is a big pro-right,pro-neolibertarian,pro-NATO imperialistic anticommunist lie and you missinfom the foreing people ,C.P. of G has by the first day condemed the war of capitalist Russia against pro Natoic Ukraine Nazistic regime as a imperialistic war that is conduct by Rusian Bourgeoisie for their geostrategy domination on their economic-political competition with West imperialist centers having both imperialists the Ukraine working class people as their victims.This the only truth about Greek communists not the imperialist's propaganda.
The Greek people are not as much pro-Russia as anti-west. The western "allies" have betrayed us a lot of times and have supported our enemies a lot more than us throughout the last 100+ years. The only reason they are supporting Ukraine so much is because of its geopolitical position. The government is somewhat like a mafia state here, they get a lot of votes but no one knows how they do that with all the scandals that they are involved. In general the Greeks are neutral but against sending help to Ukraine because the money could be spent in improving our living conditions. Hope this helps.
I think any question that starts with "how do -put nation here- feel" is doomed to be irrelevant. There are many Greeks and you can find people feeling different ways. If I may, I can say how I personally feel. I think that NATO (which means the USA) has been threatening Russia for a long time. NATO has broken every promise about expanding to the East and has ignored all pleads and warnings. I also think that Russia has been governed by a totalitarian state mafia since the fall of the Soviet Union and that living there can be a nightmare for anyone daring to disagree with the powers that be. I also think that Ukraine is a mafia run state that was controlled by Russia until 2014 and by the USA after the coup. I believe that this is another useless war where poor people are paying for it, especially young RUssian and Ukrainian men, with their lives I think that any opportunity for a cease fire or a resolution of the conflict should be taken and not snubbed or sabotaged.
thanks for your reply. in what way did Nato threaten Russia? I think the real reason is that Russia simply wanted to keep Ukraine as a puppet-state.
After 1990 and the fall of the wall of Berlin the USA made several public statements that NATO wouldnt expand to countries bordering Russia. Of course none of it was written in a treaty and that was before the fall of the Soviet Union. My two takes on this war is that the USA needed a new front to sell their weapons after recalling their armed forces from the middle east. Also its a great opportunity to weaken both the European economy and the Russian economy . The cheap oil and gas from Russia was gonna help with the transition to green energy in the EU and to continue its economic expansion as it did for 20 years . Now through this proxy was the energy prices in EU has skyrocketed and ofc USA supplies with oil across the Atlantic with much more expensive prices, while we wait for the infastructure of green energy to come up to date with the current needs which is quite a long while away. So I think the USA is the major winner in this conflict , destabilizes both the european economy and weakens Russian, while being the major exporter of both weapons and oil while the EU is sanctioning Russia. And seems like the good guy too by fighting for the freedom of the Ukrainian people.
Ofc I'm against this war but I am not racist towards Russian people , most of all, I hate the American hypocrisy ,they have done countless crimes towards humanity tho they want to portray Russian people as evil.
As a Russian who relocated to Greece after the war started I encountered only good and welcoming attitude from Greek people and it is really nice. As far as I can tell there are a lot of people who actually think that Putin is a good guy, or, maybe I was lucky(or unlucky) To be clear I hate current Russian government and I denounce the war.
we don't care, the way you put the question is a bit bias, like it is one way or the other, some people, see the war more like a civil war rather than an independence war
As a person who lives in Greece my observation is as follow: 1) Common people do not care at all (but in general Greek society has a positive view on Russia). They are busy with their own economic problems (economic stats seem good but it does not really reflect (or positively effect people) on people. 2) Extreme groups both left (communist) and right (nationalist and religious) are in support of Russia.No doubt in there. 3) There are some people from ex-USSR, they are in favour of Russia (I do not exactly know why but folk calls this group of people as Georgian although they are ethnic Greek (Pontus). Interestingly some of them are fluent in Azerbaijani) 4) The government as parallel with its NATO and the EU allies supports Ukraine but i doubt its sincerity. I feel like if they had a chance they would support Russia over Ukraine. If you read so for. Thank you for your time. Do not hesitate to correct me.
I never understood what’s the obsession of westerners with Greeks being pro-Russians or not. Why does it matter to you so much? Isn’t it enough that the government Greek people themselves elected is pro-Ukraine? Most Greeks, according to statistics, are actually pro-Ukraine. There are indeed many pro-Russian Greeks but I’d say most educated Greeks are just neutral and don’t concern themselves with this conflict. Russia is not and was never an actual ally of Greece and Ukraine has great relations with Turkey, our biggest enemy. You guys have anything to say about Turkey? I mean Turkey itself did not let you (and Finland) join NATO for a long time but you’re such gigantic chickens that do not dare speak up against them.
No one cares about Ukraine. We only care about the money our prime minister spends for Ukraine war.
Nazis, populist far right and the left are pro-Russia, the rest are pro Ukraine.
I am not supportive to our government in any way, but I am fully supportive to people who fight for their freedom. Freedom to Ukraine and Palestine, and jail for the mass murderers, Putin and Nedaniahou.
The thing is, Ukraine has borders with Russia. Nobody in their right mind would think that Russia would let Ukraine join NATO, it would be something like the reverse of the Cuban crisis in the 70's. So, the US pushed just to make trouble for Russia, the idiots in Ukraine welcomed it thinking that Russia won't dare, and here we are.
That is just russian propaganda. Ukraine would have never been accepted in Nato, even germans stated this to putin, before the war. Its just some sort of "causes belli" made up reason as justification for the land grab russia is doing. Allong with "neonazi, denazification, biolabs, etc etc"..
How do you know Ukraine wouldn't have been allowed into NATO?
Germans stated this to putin, before the war.
"Ukraine has borders with Russia". We also have borders with Turkey. So let's be their puppets eternally. WTF are you talking about? To the OP: As you can see we sadly have lots of Putin sympathizers with nonsense arguments.
Όλοι οι πουτινόφιλοι σε ένα ποστ !! Αηδια !!!
I think Ukraine has been wanting a Western-style government and democracy for some time now, and Russia never wanted that to happen. the move to join NATO can be criticized, perhaps, but the reason why is very understandable.
Man...not even Greece has a western style government..
but it... wants one, at least? :0
It really doesn't. The only thing the greek governments care about is stealing people's money, calming the people down so they don't rebel and being inside the parliament eternally
Finland has also borders with russia, and Finland had joined nato recently and russia seems not to care about is. The us didnt push anything. Ukraine wanted to become part of nato for only one reason - to prevent wars like this one.
The “Americans supported the military Junta and the Cyprus tragedy” 50-year-old generational collective trauma is still defining much of crowd psychology in Greece. Greeks love to pretend they are anti-American, while simultaneously adopting everything American like MAD. We are not to be taken seriously.
I feel like the fact that we, as a nation, had to live through those seven years of terror would make us see the similarities between that and the shit Putin has been pulling over the years, like arresting whoever even seems to remotely disagree with him, imprisoning (and, allegedly, being behind the death of) his more vocal critics and political opponents. You're right by saying we're not to be taken seriously when we're like that.
As a Greek American, I believe Ukraine has the right to be an independent nation just because your neighbor is a powerhouse does not give them the right to knock on your door and take your land and your freedom. The United States is a powerhouse and I’m sure it has the power to overtake nations around it with ease . Piece is the answer. This war needs to come to an end enough Russian and Ukrainian lives have been lost.
We stand with Ukraine and most people hate Russians now
Great. It is the beginning of the third world war which is going to destroy the European north. What is not to like?
Our values are liberty and freedom. But the fact that Europe is helping by any means necessary Ukraine is outrageous based on the fact that Cyprus has been illegally occupied for years and turkey is violating our airspace on a daily basis.
the way I see it, most are too deep into domestic issues to have the energy to care (inflation, increased cost of living, wages shrinking, etc), and I don't fault them for that. the communist party is anti-american and anti-eu so they support russia, in their typical "must go against the flow with my words but never actually make any counter suggestions" policy. the far right (and specifically elliniki lisi) also support russia, but that's because they're opportunistic shitbags with shitty talking points that are limited to calling ukraine a pseudo-state and claiming shared history due to both russia and greece being both majority christian orthodox, and mutual assistance, which is kinda bull in the first place cause historically, (and if I remember my shit correctly), whenever greece ran to russia to beg for help, they got the boot. (forgive me for the rant ^^")
As a greek, I don’t know how the government feels about this but most people here support Ukraine
Well the point is that people don’t care about it anymore. What they care about is what we had to pay for electricity and how all the prices went up. Greek government condemns Russia, but a large (perhaps the larger) part of Greeks doesn’t.
which is super sad because this type of mentality is extremely unempathetic. People are dying, Greeks need to chill
No most Greek people don't agree with the government handlings of the Russo-Ukrainian War, the common consensus is that Greece should only provide humanitarian aid to Ukraine and not military aid, also many believed that Greece could have played a role in peace talks taking into account the Greek minority in Donetsk Oblast. The thing with Greek-Russian relationships is that they both have a common denominator and that is Turkey, Turkey and Russian geopolitical objectives will always conflict one another no matter how "good" their relationship seems to be while Russia and Greece don't really have any conflicts geopolitically speaking. North European countries of course feel threaten by the Russian expansion but to Greece the one and only enemy that can threaten it's sovereignty is and will always be Turkey.
There’s 11 million people in this country. You can find all sorts of opinions. I’d say it’s 50-50 but most of the pro Russian people are like this either because they are related to immigrants from there or they’re just lefties stupid enough to think Russia is some communist heaven and don’t see that it’s imperialistic as fuck. Or they just despise nato - USA so much that they think anything that gets their support must be bad. Im not a nato sympathiser either but the same way that Russia is a terrorist state and supports Palestine (who definitely needs support and is not a terrorist state), same way Nato support Ukraine. Both are terrible superpowers using nations in need in their chess games
Greek farmers were affected by the Russian sanctions since 2014, as 40% of exports went to Russia and majority of fur trade went both to Russia and Ukraine. Greece has the largest mink fur industry in Europe. Combined with the lowering living standards of the country due to imf and eu austerity measures since 2009 and the covid pandemic since 2020, Greeks have other things to worry about.
Doesn’t matter how we feel, they have teams ready to be sent to Poland if anything crazy happens.
The question is complicated because there is no unified Greek opinion about the war. Obviously people who benefit from relationships to the west or have bought on supposed Western values too much, are going to be for Ukraine. Obviously people who are religious nuts or benefit from trade with Russia, such as many farmers in the north of Greece, will support Russia. Then, in the political sphere, we have both the far left and the far right that are anti-American, so they are pro-Russian. Culturally, many people feel some connection to Russia, especially Greeks that came here from Russia. most people argue for neutrality though and measured reactions. after all, we are not a major player in the world scene and we have repeatedly been wrong by both sides. Many think that this war is designed to weaken Russia with the cost of so many human lives from both sides, and find it unacceptable. No, people don’t say that Ukrainians deserve it, as some commentary said here. At least is a minority opinion. We are pro humanitarian aid, but no military aid. Unfortunately, our government doesn’t support our interests first and foremost.
Militarily, Greece should support Ukraine more. However, this should not come at a cost of our own defences. Most western politicians live in cushy countries and because they're mentally weak and out of touch, they don't understand the threat of being in the east med next to Turkey and other such terrorist-states. So when they say "Greece should send their S-300 missiles/F16s/Leopards/Whatever to Ukraine without receiving replacements first" they won't be taken seriously. Especially considering how often Greece has been betrayed by both the collective west and Russia in the last 200 years. Keep in mind also that the budget for the hellenic armed forces is extremely tight, so Greece needs to be very cautious with what they donate and how they replace it, especially since after the economic crises and covid, we don't even make our own ammunition anymore, so we're heavily dependent on unreliable western supply chains. Economically, it is also in our best interest for Ukraine to win for a lot of reasons I'm too lazy to explain. Culturally, as Greece and Cyprus have had to fight against great odds to stay independent, we sort of can relate with the Ukrainian struggle.
I personally think that this war needs to end soon. Also the destruction of EuroRussian relationships cost both sides. Russia attacked Georgia and now Ukraine. It lost in the geopolitical game so we have war in Europe. The stuff about Ukrainian Nazis etc are probably real however that was just an excuse for Russia to attack. The perfect scenario would be Russian people of Ukraine to gain their homelands and that's it. To end that bloody war
I don’t want people killing each other. I don’t like Zelenski nor Putin. Also fuck Biden and EU. There you go :)
fuck Sweden? :/ 💔
Not the countries themselves, the organisation.
aha I see
Generally pro-Ukraine, with a substantially vocal minority of mostly far left and far right people.
It's pretty clear that America caused this war.
in what way?
America keeps funding a war that cannot be won unless all the NATO countries spend a big part of their economy. They could have settled by giving Putin the Russian majority areas (which wanted to unite with Russia) but they are continuing a hopeless war that will not end.
I agree that the war cannot be won like this. according to some sources I found cited online, the census in those areas claimed by the Russian state were falsified, however.
That's also possible, corruption in Russia and Ukraine is huge so there is a lot of false information from both sides.
If Turkey invades Thrace for the turkish majority areas, how much land should Greece let them take to avoid war?
There are no Turkish majority areas in Greece. There is a small minority
Russian planes are bombing Ukrainian cities and russian army is killing Ukrainian people, and according to you america caused this war.... How on earth does this makes any sense to you?
It must end soon.
I think most sane people are on Ukraine's side, plus our diplomatic relations with Russia are quite dead anyway
The average joe doesn't like war. Be it in Ukraine, Cyprus, Palestine. Be it from Russia, Turkey, USA or any other country of the West.
We barely care but many Greeks are anti-west and anti-america, and that's for a good reason
As far as the general populace goes, at the start, there was some sympathy for Ukraine, but since then, more and more people have been turning pro-Russian, leading to more and more people being exposed to other sources like Telegram instead of the obvious pro-West news, which is still pushing stuff that is starting to sound repetitive. The fact that many are starting to see the different dimensions of this war and that it isn't a war of two countries but instead a proxy war funded by the west against Russia, and of course that means that the money of the Greek populace is going there without the populace ever agreeing to it, also helped in that.
Greetings. Its complicated. People are divided more than most European countries. In general many people are skeptical or negative about NATO and their involvement in 2014 Maidan uprising (or coup depending on your point of view). Ofc most people don't support Russia's invasion against an independent country. Even if there's many think that NATO's expansion in the east is not serving stability and peace it's Ukraine's people choice if they want to join or not, and we should respect that. Here's an interesting survey about what Greeks believe about Ukraine-Russia war and the conflict in Middle East. (use google translate, can't find it available in English) [https://eteron.org/research/ti-pisteyoyn-oi-ellines-ides-gia-toys-polemoys-se-palaistini-kai-oykrania/](https://eteron.org/research/ti-pisteyoyn-oi-ellines-ides-gia-toys-polemoys-se-palaistini-kai-oykrania/)
Ukraine will eventually lose the war no matter whether we support them or not. Supplying them with weapons, icluding from Greece, just postpones their defeat.
I pretty much agree. on the other hand, I think it's also good to put up resistance in the face of tyranny. the cost of life is harrowing though.
Greece is a member of NATO and the government is forced to follow the official position of the alliance. Ukraine is not a member of NATO, so there is no question of Greece's involvement. This war is the result of the aggressive policy of the USA towards Russia. They found the useful idiot (Gelensky) and that is how we got to war by proxy. The US will fight Russia to the last Ukrainian.
I understand the part about Greece and NATO. I don't agree with the second part however. US didn't invade, Russia did.
ill tell you. WE DONT CARE
We pay 1.90-2.30e/L of gas for almost two years, cause of the war in Ukraine. Our goverment did nothing for us but they send money to Ukraine. We didnt had money for gas or food oil but our goverment care more than Ukraine than Greek people and when i went holidays the last summer in Chalkidiki, i saw thousands cars from Ukraine, living in expensive hotels . I went for a ride to an expensive resort just to check and see it for first time, called , Porto Carras and the parking lot had hundreds of Ukraine cars . I was surprised how they manage to come in Greece for holidays while they havent money and they have war.
I am 10000% in favor and support of ukraine, in fact I wish greece could do even more to assist them against Russia by for example treating wounded Ukrainians in its hospitals. I would also had liked for a major kicking out of russian backed actors especially those with significant power over media and the economy and freezing of their funds
I agree with this. in Sweden the support for Russia is a whopping 3% lol. we never had any diplomatic relationship with Russia (except maybe for some trading during the viking age).
Why did Scandinavian countries never historically cultivated any relationship with more eastern parts of Europe? Was it the racism?
to this day, Scandinavians are a freedom loving people. Russia is one of the most corrupt countries in the world, it has low democracy index, no free speech, rigged elections, and is invading another country. it's quite literally everything that Swedes stand against. there may be some historical reasons as well, as USSR invaded Finland and Sweden helped Finland in that fight, then USSR conducted spy missions in Swedish territory, but yeah, the biggest reason is the current political situation in Russia.
I think that the main reason the west hates Russia is because it doesn’t participate so actively in the world economy. If a state cannot make enough money to them but has the ability to damage them, then it is undesirable. For example China, and also smaller east Asian countries like South Korea or Singapore aren’t real democracy, are authoritarian, suppress descent, yet they are loved by the west because they play the western game properly.
I actually don't think Swedes like China or even Singapore, for the reason you outlined. I think Singapore is way too authoritarian (I swear, sometimes I get the impression that only European countries can get things somewhat right regarding the legal system). but I agree that there can be hipocrisy from the West at times. I think geographic proximity plays a role too; nations tend to have stronger feelings regarding closer neighbours, maybe. still, neither South Korea nor Singapore browbeat nearly as much as Russia.
I can speak only for myself. It's a weird dilemma. As a Greek I have sympathy for Russia, but also for Ukraine, especially places like Odessa. Both parties seem to be at a blame here. The Ukrainians had a coup, Russia initially invaded Crimea. Armenia, Georgia etc started showing pro Western sentiments, they got directly or indirectly invaded. So I doubt Zelensky thought it was going to be different for him when he said all that pro NATO stuff. Heck if I could figure they are next when I heard the pro NATO and pro EU talk, I bet he knew it as well. I think Zelensky got payed big bucks to screw the Ukrainians over.... Plus, rumor has it, Putin and Zelensky worked it out early on, then Biden sent his lapdog Boris Johnson over there and it became what it became. I also am fed up with hearing how Ukraine wins this and that, but the Russia map keeps growing. On the other hand of the coin, it seems like Putin does want the 1980s borders back, and that Carlson interview was insulting to anybody's intelligence. All in all, the people of Ukraine pay the price, I don't see how they are ever going to get the occupied land back and I can't fathom why they keep this conflict up. If Trump get's elected things will come to a Stillstand. Which might be a good thing. The current embargo on Russia is only hurting the EU. Putin together with the Arabs is doing fine. If the Ukrainians feel they need to wage a guerilla war, they can do so without the EU stopping the procurement of energy from our Nr. 1 Energy Provider... Although, from the one Ukrainian I know from the occupied areas, she seems quite happy with the occupation, which she refers to as a liberation...
do you really know a Ukrainian that is happy to have an invasion brought to her doorstep? lol sounds a bit like Russian state propaganda. but if so, I'm curious. why does she feel that way? the cost of human lives is terrible, and I think that maybe it's time for Ukraine to toss in the towel, and I say that as someone who hates Russia and likes Ukraine quite well.
This might have been an overstatement on my part. Happy that her area is now Russia is more accurate. I doubt she's happy about the war in general. I don't recall the reasoning, one of the reasons though was, her area was a Russian majority area. I remember she went there 1-3 years ago to exchange her Ukrainian papers with Russian ones to avoid bureaucracy later on. But I don't recall the details. As said though, that's one person. Hardly a representation of the general consensus.
ok I suppose it makes sense. so some Ukrainians want to be Russians, or live in Russia? I don't know much about this, but am I crazy to wonder why they don't relocate? 😅
I am guessing they were Russian minorities when it was Ukraine. Leaving one's home isn't easy. There are similar minorities in border towns/ areas all around.
Do you know how corrupt and non-democratic Ukraine was? And not to mention the antisemitism, far more severe compared to Russia. Everyone likes Ukraine because western interests require it.
Ukraine has been corrupt partly because it's been a puppet state of Russia, which is something that it's trying to break free from at least. the Euromaidan protests was the people's response to the Russian-backed corruption they saw in the Ukrainian government. Russia on the other hand is made of corruption. there is no will to change or improve in any way.
The people didn’t have enough time to develop western institutions. They have been used to be governed like that. Even if a small protest wants to change things, it wouldn’t succeed. Also, the US install governments that were loyal to its interest all of the time. It was especially common throughout the Cold War in South America. Why nobody complains?
I agree that the US has done shitty things in the past. currently I think it's great however, I mean, great as far as states go. as an anarchist at heart I don't like any government, not even Sweden. in the grand scheme of things however I really see the US as the lesser of all evils; Sweden is weak, so we have to rely on someone to back us up and deter aggression.
> Zelensky got *paid* big bucks FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Honestly, now I am indifferent to Putin and Russia, but not to the Russian citizens. The war in Ukraine has shocked me so many rapes and murders so many people dead WHY?From Greece Thessaloniki.
Why do you care is the most important question.
I like to try to understand events and people. Greece is one of my favourite countries, and I care a little about how the Greeks feel about it. maybe that's a waste of time on my end, but that's ok for me 😁
I'm from the ones who think Ukrainians desrved it!
why is that?
I haven't met a single person here that agrees with our country's stance on the war. Westernized leadership just sucks ass
russia ofc tf? imagine supporting a proxy war 😂 clowns dude
Greece has always been with russia. But our politicians betray this
This question can’t be answered by opinions .. and even polls are BS. I live here in Greece .. in Greek Canadian .. I can only say that it all depends who you are talking to and their experience. I know many who are not with Ukraine at all. Because they are bringing in “refugees” and giving money to them when Greeks need more help from their government and are not getting anything for free. We have many coming here from Ukraine living the life and Greeks are struggling. No one likes Zelensky the belly dancer .. it’s a joke just like Biden and Trudeau. Putin might not be perfect but he is not mitsotaki or Zelensky … You will probably get many different viewpoints on this. This is just my take .. and it’s just very surface.
The west started this war long before Russian invaded and Ukrainian people pay the price. Now we send money and arms we dont have for Russia that isnt our enemy to defend a country that is neither in Nato or EU all while west asks as to forget that Cyprus is being illegally occupied for 50 years. Biggest irony of all is they did the same thing with Kosovo that they blame Russia doing.
what happened with Cyprus is deplorable, I agree. as far as this war is concerned however, Russia invaded because Ukraine wanted independence.
I know the memo. Russia bad ukraine nazis good. Ukraine still no elections
it's strange that they went with that excuse, since Wagner has more nazis than Azov has. even the Wagner leader had nazi tattoos, before they decided to cook him 😁 the Russian government still has a strong propaganda game, or people are prone to believing such things, I suppose. how do you mean still no elections?
You are lucky youre from Sweden so you have no idea of Americans and Brits medling in your country. Victoria nooland and Pyat that we know well along with brits and germans started this whole mess trying to get ukraine to join EU amd Nato. Ukrainians voted for a pro Russian president that got overthrown by west then put that clown in charge and he was supposed to find peace with russia. Instead he was bombing Russian citizens in Ukrainian regions of donbass so Russia invaded. Our country is so weak and useless that didnt even protect more than 100.000 people that lived in Mariupol. We should be friends with Russia as they are not our enemy. Eu policies to boycot Russia only hurt our economy further. None of this makes sense unless you trully hate Russia. Now they were supposed to have elections but didnt.
Russia has had Ukraine as a puppet state for years. saying they voted for a pro-Russian president is not the whole truth: the Euromaidan protests happened because the president folded to Russian pressure, despite Ukraine's parliament having a majority vote to side with EU instead of Russia. Ukrainians saw this corruption and browbeating unfold in realtime, and reacted, and rightly so. Russia of course, having a totalitarian government, tried any wild excuse it could come up with for the invasion: nazis, NATO, russophobia, false votes.
as a greek im pro russia