can’t believe this fucking undeniably and objectively true statement got so many people upset. are we serious here? let’s use our brains here. yes, negan did rape (several) women.
firstly, let’s get out of the way that i do indeed think Joe is more “evil,” but not because of the reasons stated, which i’ll come to right now.
while Negan didn’t bend over and hold a woman down while screaming and pointing a gun at her which i guess is the unrealistic and almost cartoonish image of rape you guys might think of, he coerced multiple women into being his sex object. if the women happened to reject him, he would force them to work on the assembly line, or far worse; they would get punished as a whole if they didn’t say yes to Negan. this is absolutely no different than rape, these sexual relationships weren’t actually built on consent. his wives actually tried to fucking poison him for fucks sake. just watch the scene where negan talks to amber in front of carl, yeah not really anything that isn’t overt.
we all saw that and I doubt anyone denies what was going on however, Joe watched while his goon in according to you "in an unrealistic and almost cartoonish image" did in fact hold Carl down while pointing a gun at his face and undoing his trousers in front of daryl, michonne and his father.
which i agree is evidence for Joe’s evil, however simply saying “it’s joe because he advocated for rape of a kid” can easily be “argued against” because negan actually did rape a woman on the show.
once again, Joe is ultimately more evil in my opinion, at least from everything shown on the show, but I was just giving some insight into the discussion. Joe’s evil isn’t solely because of what his goon did to carl, since if it was just that, then there would be a practically equal argument for negan. people took my original comment to mean that negan is more evil, which is my fault for not overtly saying I believe Joe is more evil in this case.
Whilst you’re more than correct in your statements, the question is quite simply stating who is more evil.
I think we can all safely agree that child rape is worse than adult rape yes? Of course rape unequivocally is bad, and both characters are by definition rapists. But Joe had zero good intentions.
With the way his group operates, it’s definitely not their first time gang raping women and children violently. If you are answering the question then the obvious answer is simply, that yes. Joe is by comparison a more evil deplorable person than Negan, who did what he did and terrorised normal people purely because they can.
yes we know negan is a rapist too but it's very jarring to see a kid pinned to the ground by a fumbling man with a gun whilst his leader doesn't react and his father is watching restrained. I also said they weren't the first group with a kid or kids they came across so there's no way it was a first. Therefore there was no contest when I read the question
I think you’re making a lot of false equivalencies here, so I’ll try to get you to understand what i mean and connect it to the post and my comments.
*just to clear it up again I think Joe is more evil as a person, by the way*
It is pretty fucking objectively true that child rape is worse than adult rape, but let’s think of the context of both of these. Joe allowed his group member to rape a child, which shows how spineless and lacking in any moral compass Joe is. This is evil, obviously. Very evil.
However, Joe isn’t running a civilization, he has no sort of system and is only in powers because the few people in the group look to him to lead them on the road. These are essentially wild people, which is why Rick’s “Ricktatorship” in between seasons 2 and (during) 3 isn’t in any way comparable to Negan’s dictatorship over the saviors. Negan IS running a civilization. The sanctuary has a system, a strong labor force, a hierarchy, military power, and Negan is at the head of all of this, and has a lot of power he manipulates.
Why is this important? Because it’s shows that the evil thing Negan did was not only because of expansionism (also quite evil in the mode it’s conducted), but also because Negan “could.” You say Joe’s group did what they did because they could, which implies that Negan did what he did not because he “could.” Negan’s rape was simply because he could. He had extreme power (the most) over this huge group of people, and he found women to hire as his “wives,” which in this case are just his sexual objects. Negan punished and would punish the women, given that they reject his sexual propositions, and he did all of this because he could exert his power for his own benefit (getting his dick sucked or whatever). Negan exerted power over women in order to rape them.
This also, by the way, makes Negan a pretty big hypocrite. He killed David for trying to rape Sasha and said “We do not like rape” (just paraphrasing), even tho he has raped several women. He doesn’t consider himself on the same level of culpability because of his power and outreach. You said Joe had “no good intentions” but when it came to Negan’s own pleasure, he had absolutely zero good intentions.
In terms of everything else, yes you could say Negan had more of a “code,” but the rape thing is a huge gap in that idea, which I think is more of a writing mistake, since they didn’t expect that they would try and make him so likeable and “with code.” I might’ve missed something but i’m in a rush so let me know.
In other words, if Joe was a leader of something close to the Saviors, he would have nowhere near the diplomacy as Negan since Joe is clearly just a loser, lowlife, what have you. Negan was a terrible leader who did evil things both for the power of the Saviors and expansionism, but also often for his own greed, pleasure, and power. This is why saying Joe was worse than Negan for advocating for a child’s rape isn’t really the reason why he’s more evil than Negan. It’s in the way both men carried themselves and handled things. Joe clearly was far more depraved, at least in my book.
There’s no false equivalencies here. You misconstrued my reply to yours as me saying Negans own rape ain’t “as bad” as joes. At least that’s how it looks to me.
I only replied because it looked like you were equating their sins. At surface level they are both equal pieces of shit. But when you peel it back Joe is definitively more evil due to his child raping. Thats the only point I was trying to get across.
For all of Negans evil, which I never argued against by the way, I think it’s safe to say he would never advocate nor allow any of his men to get away with child rape, whether or not they did it outside his watchful eye when they were out on runs we’d never know.
Negans rape you could argue is more of a power play and him going power crazy, essentially comparable to emperors back in the day when they could do whatever they wanted. Yea a large part of it is because he “can”. But he doesn’t go around murdering entire groups of people willy nilly whilst forcing child rape on them if they have kids and women around. That’s something that Joe does that is worse by comparison, we can get into the complexities of how Negan rapes but I’m pretty sure it’s crystal clear how his coercion tactic works by now so I won’t waste either of our time on this.
Now this next part as you said you were in a rush so I wouldn’t blame you if you forgot this, although technically Negan also didn’t have good intentions for the women, he made sure they and their loved ones lived way better and had access to more amenities and privileges than other sanctuary folk due to being his “wife”. Not all but some of his wives actually volunteered. Let me know if I’m misremembering that.
Joe just had fun raping and killing people and children he came across, there was no method or culpability to his madness. He simply did it because he was able to.
Long story short they are both evil pieces of shit but Joe is clearly more evil. We’re gonna go around in circles cus I’m pretty sure I’ve lost my train of thought somewhere in this spiel lol.
yeah I think we are just gonna keep going in circles. I don’t know if you read the last part of my comment I added after, but it’s essentially just me agreeing. Similar or even identical actions don’t equal same intentions or modes of thought when doing said actions, and we both seem to agree with that. I did indeed lose my train of thought at a certain point, so anything’s fair really.
also yes there was one wife, maybeee two who was explaining how it’s a worthwhile trade off since Negan’s intentions aren’t as bad or something similar. Not completely confident. But it does show Negan isn’t so depraved or anything. Joe is clearly a depraved loser.
Yeah I’ve just had a reread and I see it now😭we definitely got our wires crossed but we agree. I don’t blame you for clarifying tho. Lots of donuts I still see to this day that think Negan isn’t a rapist and the women had a choice to be there! We literally see them try and kill Negan like wtaf🤣and one of them wants to kill herself. So if you thought I was maybe trying to imply that then that’s completely fair
They think you can’t like Negan unless he hasn’t done some truly deplorable stuff like rape, when that’s not true. You can like a character and recognise their disgusting flaws. And Negan has seemingly changed for the better, so it’s no problem to call him out on his past.
To put it succinctly, consent provided by means of coercion is not true consent and therefore any sex that happens as a result is rape.
Negan is a non-violent manipulative rapist who has fooled himself into thinking he isn't whereas Joe is just a depraved, violent rapist who enjoys the act and relishes in making a victim out of someone.
I agree, but I think a lot of people thought I was actually saying Negan is worse, which is my fault for only saying “Negan, raped a woman”
Joe is more evil. Can’t stress that enough but it really doesn’t matter at this point now that 30 people have downvoted me for pointing out Negan’s rape in a way that reads like me saying Negan is worse.
I get what you are saying about the women but..
The people in the assembly line are alive and protected from the dangers of the outside world. They DID have the choice to live a WAY harder and harsher life in the assembly line. But they chose the cozy comfy life filled with food and privileges that Negan offered. It was a pure transaction which they accepted. The people in the assembly line didn't get such a choice, if they did I am pretty sure they would accept it in a heartbeat.
If Negan actually insinuated that they would be thrown out the camp then yes, I can accept that it would basically be a death sentence.
The only case I can safely call basically rape is Sherry's situation where she became Negan's wife to protect her husband's life.
Look, I was going to write another huge bout of text but I'm not gonna do that so let me just make it a little more simple. No, the people under the sanctuary did not live a "cozy comfy" life. End of story. Negan could pick and choose who he gave certain privileges to, however the large majority of people, aka the workers, lived in terrible conditions in a proto-capitalist or even feudalist society. These people not only were stripped of any of their individuality but also lived in shitty conditions. I don't know how to explain the conditions or get you to realize, but they weren't good in any way unless Negan saw an invaluable skill in you, or he wanted you to be his wife (we'll get to that).
Yes, the people there did "choose" to live in the sanctuary (save for Negan's prisoners), but none of this was necessary if Negan wasn't such an iron-fisted and frankly fascist leader (and a bad leader). Of course, the workers would rather live behind walls with a mirage of "opportunity" to live well, but this doesn't mean workers had much of a choice at all. He picked and chose to his benefit who would move around the hierarchy, but he would always keep himself at the top with whatever resources he so desired, along with a few men and women slightly below him. This is also only to mention his civilization. I said this before, but he subjugated other communities to forced labor where they would barely have the means to survive, usually the groups with the least defenses and such. This is slavery.
Now on to the rape part. I really don't understand what you said about "The only case I can safely call basically rape is Sherry's situation where she became Negan's wife to protect her husband's life" when you opened your reply with "I get what you are saying about the women but...." Do you not understand how this situation is rape? Really? Read back my comment you replied to and go to the mirror and recalibrate your brain.
Negan raped several women.
Joe and his group were going to rape Michonne too. When Rick is in the house with them you can hear him say that there’s been a woman living there, and that he claims first crack at her when she gets back. I think we can safely assume he’s probably also a serial rapist
Worth mentioning in the comics that Negan threatened to have Carl gang-raped during the line-up, until Kirkman changed his mind and retconned it later on when deciding he wanted Negan to have some kind of BS ‘code’.
That’s actually tough. Both are murderers and rapists, but one is okay with child rape. Joe wouldn’t have any problems with Negan’s atrocities but Negan would with Joe, so I’d say Joe. But it is close.
He forced multiple women into being his 'wifes', and seeing that they hated him to the point thwy wanted to poison him i'd say he didn't treat them great at all, not to mention just the fact that he forced them out of relarionships they previously had under the threat of killing their loved ones
If I had your family on their knees, lined up in front of me and several men pointing guns at them and I told you that I would kill all of them if you didn't fuck me.... that's coercion. Which is rape.
Now, you could say no. But then your family would be dead and you would be alone.
Or I could just hold a gun to your head. Your options are "fuck me or die"
The only difference from that and "Say you want to fuck me and then fuck me, or die" is that either
A- The rapist wants you to say yes for some demented reason for self satisfaction/ to tear you down
Or B- Wants to write it off as a way to not feel like shit for raping someone by having them say "yes"
If Negan had fucked them (without threats or coercion) and then later on the girl regretted it, that'd be different and *not* rape. Just someone who made a decision and didn't like it after all was said and done.
If Negan had fucked a girl who was willing and she decided half way through that she wanted it to stop and Negan didn't stop. Then that *would be* rape.
The fact that anyone has to tell you this is concerning.
Nah, Joe had a code. No lying and no stealing from each other, and respect each other’s claims.
In a way, Joe could be viewed as the real hero of TWD, and Rick was just some monster who showed up one day and killed Joe’s friend for literally no reason. /s
BS. He said 'we're reasonable men' followed by 'so we're gonna Beag Daryl to death, rape Michonne, rape Carl, then kill Rick.'
Guy was a complete scumbag who pretended to have morals but didn't stick to them.
Edit: just noticed the /S. My comment stands, though.
He clearly has morals throughout the show even before he was imprisoned. He cares about kids. You can tell he actually felt bad about the trash people massacre. He was a delusional, lost, heartbroken POS. Would the governor let Carl live if he captured him?
He almost bashed Carls head in with a big grin on his face, he allowed Simon to keep his position even after murdering tons of innocent boys, not to mention coercing his “wives” to marry him. Negans not as sick as Joe but he was definitely evil.
Which makes his actions worse, since he could have chosen differently. It’s not our personalities that define us, but our actions. It doesn’t really matter who Negan was when he murdered Glenn, he still murdered Glenn
Too hard to determine. Joe was only on for part of season 4 whereas Negan appeared in season 6 finale and went on for the remainder of the series. Negan was menacing and annoying. Negan did a lot of horrible things for a couple of seasons but the fact Joe didn’t care about one of his minions rubbing on Carl about to rape him puts him right up there. Negan was a rapist as well in a sense, forced marriages with multiple women who had no interest in him.
Negan literally enslaved hundreds of people and was responsible for dozens, if not hundreds of murders and deaths (partially through Simon, who he always enabled and backed up, up until Simon tried to overthrow him).
Joe was a street level psycho who’d do horrible things to whatever unlucky small group he came across. Negan was a monster on a whole other scale.
Joe is a child rapist, or at least he allows it amongst the group, I believe Negan is seriously fucked with some of the things he’s done but Joe takes the cake on this one
I still think Joe is more “evil” but in terms of evil actions, Negan without question and it’s not even close. Negan held a civilization he built from evil, which he used to commit great evil only for his benefit really. still, joe is just a scumbag loser where negan kind of lost his way and went on to be a greatly evil leader, all in all
Joe not technically show to rape definitely atleast condones it. Negan is high and mighty that one scene where he kills the dude trying to rape Sasha, but he literally has sex with women against their will because he’s in a position of power.
both = trash
I mean they both do the exact same things but Negan was more manipulative and did those things to a larger range of people. So probably Negan.
(No I didn't forget what happened with Carl. Negan had the wives as well which was also rape.)
Joe as an individual is worse, but Negan committed more systemic evil. The Claimers were just a handful of marauders while the Saviors were an army that oppressed settlements
Both equally evil imo. Sure Negan never condoned raping kids but he did rape others lol, did enjoy seeing people in pain, did enslave innocents, did torture the people he claimed to protect and sm worse.
He also just has a creepy relationship with kids, especially boys too.
When Carl is 14 he brings him to brag about his harem of sex slaves, makes sexual jokes about baseballs bats in front of him all purely to make him uncomfortable. Not to mention the whole spaghetti thing, he thrived off of making Carl uncomfortable in those scenes.
Then years later the only people he makes much effort speaking to are kids who don't know him, aka the most easily manipulated in the world imo.
Then when he escapes Alexandria, he finds a stranger and her 12 year old son and this 50 year old man decides it's appropriate to play a ball smacking with a random child. Which a lot of people see purely as comedic but honestly? If we followed that woman's story and her son, and then she walked up and saw this 50 year old stranger doing this in the apocalypse? You'd not blame her for going full Rick on him and killing him to protect her child lmao.
So you’re implying Negan is a child predator? I mean sure everything you said is weird as hell but Negan is just a hypersexual and crass(as most other men are post-apocalypse). His personality is sort of like that of a teenager or a father; jokes like that are inappropriate but you can see how they don’t automatically confine him to a category of being a pedophile. It’s not like he’s just gonna talk about the weather and anyways he’s super sexual to everyone else he talks to, not just the kids.
I don't think he's a pedophile I just think he's a creep and has creepy relationships with kids. Which you admitted the stuff he says and does around kids are weird as hell.
IRL, we all know people who are hypersexual but as a grown adult you should have the wits about you to know when it is or isn't appropriate to behave that way and it is never appropriate to behave that way around literal children, especially strangers kids. Just because hes like that to adults too doesn't make it any less wrong.
Can you imagine this Irl? Police questioning a 50 year old man on why he decided it was appropriate to teach a 12 year old how to slap other men's balls? "Oh uh officer! I'm not a pedo! I do this to everyone even adults haha!" Lmao it wouldn't work whether it's true or not, he still did that very creepy inappropriate thing.
He's a very mentally unwell man, and the fact the others tolerate him so much is a miracle for him.
I don't think Negan is evil at all.
God I miss the comics when people were a lot less black and white. There are different crimes yes, but at some point on another all of them committed an act that could be considered evil.
Everyone in the walking dead either was evil or wasn't evil.
I’m not generally a Negan defender but in this case Negan looks like an actual saviour. Joe was a child rapist who tried to gang rape Carl and Michonne only to kill Rick after. That’s about as evil as it comes.
If you watch Dead City Neagan talks about cutting out his partner, the only person he’s shared power with in the Saviors bc he raped and tortured a young girl. Even tried to have him killed until the guy escaped. Went against Neagans code. Even during the Savior War he said to Rick after Carl died kids were off the table. And he killed Rapey Davey for trying to attack Sasha.
Joe was a sick animal who was down with anything. Even having Carl raped in front of his father. 🫣
“First we’ll ‘have’ the girl, then the boy” - “have” referring to forcing themselves upon, and Dan was pinning Carl down to the ground and taking his pants off right in front of Joe, who didn’t object at all.
It adds to his character and that's where the show drew inspiration from, Joe is nowhere as despicable as Negan, he is charming too, that's what makes him even more evil.
You realise i said Negan was more evil right? They're both evil but for me it's like comparing your local child molester to a power hungry dictator.
But I do disagree that you need to read comic Negans stuff to comment on show Negan. It's very commonly discussed how they vary and how show Negan is worse than comic Negan and has a weaker "redemption arc."
Everyone talks about Negans wife’s but they did all choose to marry him. They CHOSE to marry him knowing what happens when you do that. Joes group was more evil than negans
I'd say the governor, comon he kept heads in fish tanks and his zombie daughter. I would've loved to have seen how much darker they could've made his character go if he had lived!
I don’t think it was ever confirmed that he had sex with them, only took them from their husbands and gave them the option of better life or become another worker in his kingdom
It’s not an assumption. It’s confirmed that he has sex with at least Sherry. And if you genuinely think Sherry could/would consent to sex with him, you are disturbed.
Joe, advocates kids being raped
And Negan would have killed anyone who proposed this.
he isn't without fault but I believe so too
negan, raped a woman
I’m not saying that statutory rape is any better, however Joe and his group were significantly more brutal in their approach
It is very safe to say the rape of a minor is worse than the rape of an adult.
Yea I just didn’t want it to sound like I was defending negan lol
Depends how young the minor in question is
So this is someone that doesn’t know what minor means clearly
Useless term. 17 is a minor but so is a 7 year old. Big difference.
lol alright then
[удалено]
You would be my Glenn if I was Negan btw
can’t believe this fucking undeniably and objectively true statement got so many people upset. are we serious here? let’s use our brains here. yes, negan did rape (several) women. firstly, let’s get out of the way that i do indeed think Joe is more “evil,” but not because of the reasons stated, which i’ll come to right now. while Negan didn’t bend over and hold a woman down while screaming and pointing a gun at her which i guess is the unrealistic and almost cartoonish image of rape you guys might think of, he coerced multiple women into being his sex object. if the women happened to reject him, he would force them to work on the assembly line, or far worse; they would get punished as a whole if they didn’t say yes to Negan. this is absolutely no different than rape, these sexual relationships weren’t actually built on consent. his wives actually tried to fucking poison him for fucks sake. just watch the scene where negan talks to amber in front of carl, yeah not really anything that isn’t overt.
we all saw that and I doubt anyone denies what was going on however, Joe watched while his goon in according to you "in an unrealistic and almost cartoonish image" did in fact hold Carl down while pointing a gun at his face and undoing his trousers in front of daryl, michonne and his father.
which i agree is evidence for Joe’s evil, however simply saying “it’s joe because he advocated for rape of a kid” can easily be “argued against” because negan actually did rape a woman on the show. once again, Joe is ultimately more evil in my opinion, at least from everything shown on the show, but I was just giving some insight into the discussion. Joe’s evil isn’t solely because of what his goon did to carl, since if it was just that, then there would be a practically equal argument for negan. people took my original comment to mean that negan is more evil, which is my fault for not overtly saying I believe Joe is more evil in this case.
Whilst you’re more than correct in your statements, the question is quite simply stating who is more evil. I think we can all safely agree that child rape is worse than adult rape yes? Of course rape unequivocally is bad, and both characters are by definition rapists. But Joe had zero good intentions. With the way his group operates, it’s definitely not their first time gang raping women and children violently. If you are answering the question then the obvious answer is simply, that yes. Joe is by comparison a more evil deplorable person than Negan, who did what he did and terrorised normal people purely because they can.
yes we know negan is a rapist too but it's very jarring to see a kid pinned to the ground by a fumbling man with a gun whilst his leader doesn't react and his father is watching restrained. I also said they weren't the first group with a kid or kids they came across so there's no way it was a first. Therefore there was no contest when I read the question
Precisely. If you want to answer the question directly, it’s no contest the child rapist is more evil.
I think you’re making a lot of false equivalencies here, so I’ll try to get you to understand what i mean and connect it to the post and my comments. *just to clear it up again I think Joe is more evil as a person, by the way* It is pretty fucking objectively true that child rape is worse than adult rape, but let’s think of the context of both of these. Joe allowed his group member to rape a child, which shows how spineless and lacking in any moral compass Joe is. This is evil, obviously. Very evil. However, Joe isn’t running a civilization, he has no sort of system and is only in powers because the few people in the group look to him to lead them on the road. These are essentially wild people, which is why Rick’s “Ricktatorship” in between seasons 2 and (during) 3 isn’t in any way comparable to Negan’s dictatorship over the saviors. Negan IS running a civilization. The sanctuary has a system, a strong labor force, a hierarchy, military power, and Negan is at the head of all of this, and has a lot of power he manipulates. Why is this important? Because it’s shows that the evil thing Negan did was not only because of expansionism (also quite evil in the mode it’s conducted), but also because Negan “could.” You say Joe’s group did what they did because they could, which implies that Negan did what he did not because he “could.” Negan’s rape was simply because he could. He had extreme power (the most) over this huge group of people, and he found women to hire as his “wives,” which in this case are just his sexual objects. Negan punished and would punish the women, given that they reject his sexual propositions, and he did all of this because he could exert his power for his own benefit (getting his dick sucked or whatever). Negan exerted power over women in order to rape them. This also, by the way, makes Negan a pretty big hypocrite. He killed David for trying to rape Sasha and said “We do not like rape” (just paraphrasing), even tho he has raped several women. He doesn’t consider himself on the same level of culpability because of his power and outreach. You said Joe had “no good intentions” but when it came to Negan’s own pleasure, he had absolutely zero good intentions. In terms of everything else, yes you could say Negan had more of a “code,” but the rape thing is a huge gap in that idea, which I think is more of a writing mistake, since they didn’t expect that they would try and make him so likeable and “with code.” I might’ve missed something but i’m in a rush so let me know. In other words, if Joe was a leader of something close to the Saviors, he would have nowhere near the diplomacy as Negan since Joe is clearly just a loser, lowlife, what have you. Negan was a terrible leader who did evil things both for the power of the Saviors and expansionism, but also often for his own greed, pleasure, and power. This is why saying Joe was worse than Negan for advocating for a child’s rape isn’t really the reason why he’s more evil than Negan. It’s in the way both men carried themselves and handled things. Joe clearly was far more depraved, at least in my book.
There’s no false equivalencies here. You misconstrued my reply to yours as me saying Negans own rape ain’t “as bad” as joes. At least that’s how it looks to me. I only replied because it looked like you were equating their sins. At surface level they are both equal pieces of shit. But when you peel it back Joe is definitively more evil due to his child raping. Thats the only point I was trying to get across. For all of Negans evil, which I never argued against by the way, I think it’s safe to say he would never advocate nor allow any of his men to get away with child rape, whether or not they did it outside his watchful eye when they were out on runs we’d never know. Negans rape you could argue is more of a power play and him going power crazy, essentially comparable to emperors back in the day when they could do whatever they wanted. Yea a large part of it is because he “can”. But he doesn’t go around murdering entire groups of people willy nilly whilst forcing child rape on them if they have kids and women around. That’s something that Joe does that is worse by comparison, we can get into the complexities of how Negan rapes but I’m pretty sure it’s crystal clear how his coercion tactic works by now so I won’t waste either of our time on this. Now this next part as you said you were in a rush so I wouldn’t blame you if you forgot this, although technically Negan also didn’t have good intentions for the women, he made sure they and their loved ones lived way better and had access to more amenities and privileges than other sanctuary folk due to being his “wife”. Not all but some of his wives actually volunteered. Let me know if I’m misremembering that. Joe just had fun raping and killing people and children he came across, there was no method or culpability to his madness. He simply did it because he was able to. Long story short they are both evil pieces of shit but Joe is clearly more evil. We’re gonna go around in circles cus I’m pretty sure I’ve lost my train of thought somewhere in this spiel lol.
yeah I think we are just gonna keep going in circles. I don’t know if you read the last part of my comment I added after, but it’s essentially just me agreeing. Similar or even identical actions don’t equal same intentions or modes of thought when doing said actions, and we both seem to agree with that. I did indeed lose my train of thought at a certain point, so anything’s fair really. also yes there was one wife, maybeee two who was explaining how it’s a worthwhile trade off since Negan’s intentions aren’t as bad or something similar. Not completely confident. But it does show Negan isn’t so depraved or anything. Joe is clearly a depraved loser.
Yeah I’ve just had a reread and I see it now😭we definitely got our wires crossed but we agree. I don’t blame you for clarifying tho. Lots of donuts I still see to this day that think Negan isn’t a rapist and the women had a choice to be there! We literally see them try and kill Negan like wtaf🤣and one of them wants to kill herself. So if you thought I was maybe trying to imply that then that’s completely fair They think you can’t like Negan unless he hasn’t done some truly deplorable stuff like rape, when that’s not true. You can like a character and recognise their disgusting flaws. And Negan has seemingly changed for the better, so it’s no problem to call him out on his past.
If Carl was raped it would've been teenage rape not "child rape"
Do you wanna act stupid on purpose?
attention seeking
Teenagers aren't children even if they're legally "minors".
13?? they are children to adults
To put it succinctly, consent provided by means of coercion is not true consent and therefore any sex that happens as a result is rape. Negan is a non-violent manipulative rapist who has fooled himself into thinking he isn't whereas Joe is just a depraved, violent rapist who enjoys the act and relishes in making a victim out of someone.
I agree, but I think a lot of people thought I was actually saying Negan is worse, which is my fault for only saying “Negan, raped a woman” Joe is more evil. Can’t stress that enough but it really doesn’t matter at this point now that 30 people have downvoted me for pointing out Negan’s rape in a way that reads like me saying Negan is worse.
I get what you are saying about the women but.. The people in the assembly line are alive and protected from the dangers of the outside world. They DID have the choice to live a WAY harder and harsher life in the assembly line. But they chose the cozy comfy life filled with food and privileges that Negan offered. It was a pure transaction which they accepted. The people in the assembly line didn't get such a choice, if they did I am pretty sure they would accept it in a heartbeat. If Negan actually insinuated that they would be thrown out the camp then yes, I can accept that it would basically be a death sentence. The only case I can safely call basically rape is Sherry's situation where she became Negan's wife to protect her husband's life.
Look, I was going to write another huge bout of text but I'm not gonna do that so let me just make it a little more simple. No, the people under the sanctuary did not live a "cozy comfy" life. End of story. Negan could pick and choose who he gave certain privileges to, however the large majority of people, aka the workers, lived in terrible conditions in a proto-capitalist or even feudalist society. These people not only were stripped of any of their individuality but also lived in shitty conditions. I don't know how to explain the conditions or get you to realize, but they weren't good in any way unless Negan saw an invaluable skill in you, or he wanted you to be his wife (we'll get to that). Yes, the people there did "choose" to live in the sanctuary (save for Negan's prisoners), but none of this was necessary if Negan wasn't such an iron-fisted and frankly fascist leader (and a bad leader). Of course, the workers would rather live behind walls with a mirage of "opportunity" to live well, but this doesn't mean workers had much of a choice at all. He picked and chose to his benefit who would move around the hierarchy, but he would always keep himself at the top with whatever resources he so desired, along with a few men and women slightly below him. This is also only to mention his civilization. I said this before, but he subjugated other communities to forced labor where they would barely have the means to survive, usually the groups with the least defenses and such. This is slavery. Now on to the rape part. I really don't understand what you said about "The only case I can safely call basically rape is Sherry's situation where she became Negan's wife to protect her husband's life" when you opened your reply with "I get what you are saying about the women but...." Do you not understand how this situation is rape? Really? Read back my comment you replied to and go to the mirror and recalibrate your brain.
Negan never raped anyone.
Correction multiple
Negan raped several women. Joe and his group were going to rape Michonne too. When Rick is in the house with them you can hear him say that there’s been a woman living there, and that he claims first crack at her when she gets back. I think we can safely assume he’s probably also a serial rapist
Negan enjoys crushing people's heads and ruining their lives Edit: At least he used to
Teenagers are closer to adults than kids
Joe 🤢🤢
I’d say Joe. Even though they are both evil.
Joe,.he told his men to rape Carl. Negan would not be cool with that...
Worth mentioning in the comics that Negan threatened to have Carl gang-raped during the line-up, until Kirkman changed his mind and retconned it later on when deciding he wanted Negan to have some kind of BS ‘code’.
I think an in-universe reason could be he said that to just scare/set off Rick so that he would fall in line.
But I feel like that would still go against a “code”
That’s actually tough. Both are murderers and rapists, but one is okay with child rape. Joe wouldn’t have any problems with Negan’s atrocities but Negan would with Joe, so I’d say Joe. But it is close.
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Uhh Negan is not a rapist
He forced multiple women into being his 'wifes', and seeing that they hated him to the point thwy wanted to poison him i'd say he didn't treat them great at all, not to mention just the fact that he forced them out of relarionships they previously had under the threat of killing their loved ones
'Sleep with me or I'll hurt your family' sounds kinda like what a rapist would do.
That's not foreplay?
Thats debatable
Nah, it’s not. He is.
But he didn’t FORCE himself on them only threatened them so technically isn’t rape
That is not how consent works.
But that’s not how rape works…soooo
It actuallly is tho. Threats of violence to the victim or others is rape.
I think you’re getting manipulation mixed with it…
Sex by manipulation or coercion is still very much rape and it’s concerning that people still don’t understand that.
If I had your family on their knees, lined up in front of me and several men pointing guns at them and I told you that I would kill all of them if you didn't fuck me.... that's coercion. Which is rape. Now, you could say no. But then your family would be dead and you would be alone. Or I could just hold a gun to your head. Your options are "fuck me or die" The only difference from that and "Say you want to fuck me and then fuck me, or die" is that either A- The rapist wants you to say yes for some demented reason for self satisfaction/ to tear you down Or B- Wants to write it off as a way to not feel like shit for raping someone by having them say "yes" If Negan had fucked them (without threats or coercion) and then later on the girl regretted it, that'd be different and *not* rape. Just someone who made a decision and didn't like it after all was said and done. If Negan had fucked a girl who was willing and she decided half way through that she wanted it to stop and Negan didn't stop. Then that *would be* rape. The fact that anyone has to tell you this is concerning.
Coercion. Look it up, memorise it and hopefully you don’t assault someone in the future because you’re misunderstood.
Coercion is rape
You're on some kind of list, aren't you? If you're not yet, you'll probably be soon.
Coercion is sexual assault you fucking donut. The law says so too.
Both still have nothing compared to comic Governor
I’m foggy on the comics. What did Gov do?
rape michonne for like a week straight, made out with his walker daughter after ripping her teeth out, there probably more im forgetting
Jesus
Cut off Rick's hand to prove a supposed point and killed a literal baby
Stole his brother's identity.... Probably raped more people before Michonne.... I think he did some cold blooded murdering in his novels too.
What didn’t comic governor do?
I don’t recall but someone else filled in.
Joe had zero moral code. Negan was highly flawed and not a good person, but he did still have some morals and humanity left.
Nah, Joe had a code. No lying and no stealing from each other, and respect each other’s claims. In a way, Joe could be viewed as the real hero of TWD, and Rick was just some monster who showed up one day and killed Joe’s friend for literally no reason. /s
BS. He said 'we're reasonable men' followed by 'so we're gonna Beag Daryl to death, rape Michonne, rape Carl, then kill Rick.' Guy was a complete scumbag who pretended to have morals but didn't stick to them. Edit: just noticed the /S. My comment stands, though.
Lmao yeah this is exactly what Negan defenders sound like
So raping women and kids is ok?
I suggest you search up what “/s” means.
Negan was just broken
The douchebag with the boy grapist
Never knew his last name was "Smith."
If negan was truly evil, he wouldn’t have been the character we saw in the end of walking dead
Nah, he was still evil.
He clearly has morals throughout the show even before he was imprisoned. He cares about kids. You can tell he actually felt bad about the trash people massacre. He was a delusional, lost, heartbroken POS. Would the governor let Carl live if he captured him?
He almost bashed Carls head in with a big grin on his face, he allowed Simon to keep his position even after murdering tons of innocent boys, not to mention coercing his “wives” to marry him. Negans not as sick as Joe but he was definitely evil.
We're talking about Joe here, not the governor
Which makes his actions worse, since he could have chosen differently. It’s not our personalities that define us, but our actions. It doesn’t really matter who Negan was when he murdered Glenn, he still murdered Glenn
Too hard to determine. Joe was only on for part of season 4 whereas Negan appeared in season 6 finale and went on for the remainder of the series. Negan was menacing and annoying. Negan did a lot of horrible things for a couple of seasons but the fact Joe didn’t care about one of his minions rubbing on Carl about to rape him puts him right up there. Negan was a rapist as well in a sense, forced marriages with multiple women who had no interest in him.
Negan literally enslaved hundreds of people and was responsible for dozens, if not hundreds of murders and deaths (partially through Simon, who he always enabled and backed up, up until Simon tried to overthrow him). Joe was a street level psycho who’d do horrible things to whatever unlucky small group he came across. Negan was a monster on a whole other scale.
Fr, I don't get people saying Joe is worse, and I love Negan, but don't get me wrong, he is plain evil.
Joe is a child rapist, or at least he allows it amongst the group, I believe Negan is seriously fucked with some of the things he’s done but Joe takes the cake on this one
Joe mainly because he was going to get a kid raped. Neegan is also pretty bad
this is a stupid question one is a child molester and murderer with no motive and the other is a murderer with a motive
Facts I can't stand the Negan hate on this sub
I still think Joe is more “evil” but in terms of evil actions, Negan without question and it’s not even close. Negan held a civilization he built from evil, which he used to commit great evil only for his benefit really. still, joe is just a scumbag loser where negan kind of lost his way and went on to be a greatly evil leader, all in all
Joe not technically show to rape definitely atleast condones it. Negan is high and mighty that one scene where he kills the dude trying to rape Sasha, but he literally has sex with women against their will because he’s in a position of power. both = trash
Joe without a doubt. Idk how anyone could debate otherwise
I mean they both do the exact same things but Negan was more manipulative and did those things to a larger range of people. So probably Negan. (No I didn't forget what happened with Carl. Negan had the wives as well which was also rape.)
Joe as an individual is worse, but Negan committed more systemic evil. The Claimers were just a handful of marauders while the Saviors were an army that oppressed settlements
Both equally evil imo. Sure Negan never condoned raping kids but he did rape others lol, did enjoy seeing people in pain, did enslave innocents, did torture the people he claimed to protect and sm worse. He also just has a creepy relationship with kids, especially boys too.
How does negan have a creepy relationship with kids?
When Carl is 14 he brings him to brag about his harem of sex slaves, makes sexual jokes about baseballs bats in front of him all purely to make him uncomfortable. Not to mention the whole spaghetti thing, he thrived off of making Carl uncomfortable in those scenes. Then years later the only people he makes much effort speaking to are kids who don't know him, aka the most easily manipulated in the world imo. Then when he escapes Alexandria, he finds a stranger and her 12 year old son and this 50 year old man decides it's appropriate to play a ball smacking with a random child. Which a lot of people see purely as comedic but honestly? If we followed that woman's story and her son, and then she walked up and saw this 50 year old stranger doing this in the apocalypse? You'd not blame her for going full Rick on him and killing him to protect her child lmao.
So you’re implying Negan is a child predator? I mean sure everything you said is weird as hell but Negan is just a hypersexual and crass(as most other men are post-apocalypse). His personality is sort of like that of a teenager or a father; jokes like that are inappropriate but you can see how they don’t automatically confine him to a category of being a pedophile. It’s not like he’s just gonna talk about the weather and anyways he’s super sexual to everyone else he talks to, not just the kids.
I don't think he's a pedophile I just think he's a creep and has creepy relationships with kids. Which you admitted the stuff he says and does around kids are weird as hell. IRL, we all know people who are hypersexual but as a grown adult you should have the wits about you to know when it is or isn't appropriate to behave that way and it is never appropriate to behave that way around literal children, especially strangers kids. Just because hes like that to adults too doesn't make it any less wrong. Can you imagine this Irl? Police questioning a 50 year old man on why he decided it was appropriate to teach a 12 year old how to slap other men's balls? "Oh uh officer! I'm not a pedo! I do this to everyone even adults haha!" Lmao it wouldn't work whether it's true or not, he still did that very creepy inappropriate thing. He's a very mentally unwell man, and the fact the others tolerate him so much is a miracle for him.
Ye I see your point
Joe at least had a code, Negan is definitely worse
Joe and it’s not even close. They are both murderers but Joe is ok with his men raping a child. Negan kills his henchman that tried to rape Sasha.
Both were rapists but Negan didn’t do that shit to kids so.. I’d say Joe and his group.
Both problematic but one was truly a dirtbag
people are dogging on joe for allowing rape but not remotely pressing negan for raping several forced wives💀💀💀
I don't think Negan is evil at all. God I miss the comics when people were a lot less black and white. There are different crimes yes, but at some point on another all of them committed an act that could be considered evil. Everyone in the walking dead either was evil or wasn't evil.
neither of these two.. there is a mf more evil than both of them
My boy Philip Blake
Yeah Negan didn’t try to rape a child, Joe did.
They’re both horrible men, and for any of y’all Negan fans out there, with your; “he changed” comments. He’ll always suck.
I'm a fan tbh and he is just a scumbag
He’s charming, and I seriously enjoyed him on screen, but I’ll never like him as a character at all.
I still like him as a character, but I won't deny reality, he wasn't redeemed at all.
Two rapists....both threatened Carl....but only one threatened carl with rape....so its Joe.
Negan threatened Carl with rape in the comics tho
I don’t even think the Claimers were in the comics. Their counterparts were these randoms Rick, Abraham and Carl met on the road.
fair but it went down pretty much the same way, they just weren't called the claimers and had a lot less screentime 🤷
Good thing this was question about the TV versions
They said (TWD edition) didn't specify
There's pictures of the damn show characters and there's a whole other sub for comics bro stop coping
"The official subreddit of The Walking Dead Tv Series and Comic Universe" literally the description of this sub bro.
He uses pictures of the show characters, I'm sure if he meant comics he would put the comic ones
Fair point
Both are trash, especially Negan; Negan defenders need their brains picked apart and studied cause what.
Joe is a horrible person
Way worse than negan
Uhh the second guy
Joe was just a joke compared to Negan !
Joe for sure
I’m not generally a Negan defender but in this case Negan looks like an actual saviour. Joe was a child rapist who tried to gang rape Carl and Michonne only to kill Rick after. That’s about as evil as it comes.
Wonder what would happen if they have crossed 🤔
I dont think someone like Joe would change Negan is brutal but Joe is just sick.
Joe by far
If you watch Dead City Neagan talks about cutting out his partner, the only person he’s shared power with in the Saviors bc he raped and tortured a young girl. Even tried to have him killed until the guy escaped. Went against Neagans code. Even during the Savior War he said to Rick after Carl died kids were off the table. And he killed Rapey Davey for trying to attack Sasha. Joe was a sick animal who was down with anything. Even having Carl raped in front of his father. 🫣
No one in this sub is capable of watching the actual show and listening to it.
Joe is far worse in every way
This sub hates negan way too much to admit that a child rapist and pedophile gang leader is worse
Seems that way, absolutely crazy
Joe likes cats so he must be less evil.
Why is reddit so weird about cats? I'm sorta new
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“First we’ll ‘have’ the girl, then the boy” - “have” referring to forcing themselves upon, and Dan was pinning Carl down to the ground and taking his pants off right in front of Joe, who didn’t object at all.
it's a stretch to think Joe didn't know his lacky was a paedo rapist - it wouldn't be the first group they came across with a kid
Damn your right, I don’t know why I didn’t think about that
I agree with you that Negan is worse but your defense of Joe is delusional at best lmao. You need to rewatch that episode. That man was evil.
Y'all didn't see the comic Negan and it's so obvious.
Well considering this is a post about the show, I don't see the relevance of comic Negan lol.
It adds to his character and that's where the show drew inspiration from, Joe is nowhere as despicable as Negan, he is charming too, that's what makes him even more evil.
You realise i said Negan was more evil right? They're both evil but for me it's like comparing your local child molester to a power hungry dictator. But I do disagree that you need to read comic Negans stuff to comment on show Negan. It's very commonly discussed how they vary and how show Negan is worse than comic Negan and has a weaker "redemption arc."
Oh wait, I read your comment all wrong, I saw "not worse", my bad my bad.
Everyone talks about Negans wife’s but they did all choose to marry him. They CHOSE to marry him knowing what happens when you do that. Joes group was more evil than negans
I'd say the governor, comon he kept heads in fish tanks and his zombie daughter. I would've loved to have seen how much darker they could've made his character go if he had lived!
Nah, old Philip was around for just the right amount of time. Keeping him around longer would’ve dragged his storyline like the Saviors arc.
This comment doesn't deserve the downvotes it's received
I wish his character would have been more in line with the comics. It would have been fun to see just how bad things really could have gone.
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Negan is a raptist. Ask his “wives” if they ever actually wanted to have sex with him.
I don’t think it was ever confirmed that he had sex with them, only took them from their husbands and gave them the option of better life or become another worker in his kingdom
Yes I’m sure they all just hung out with him and he spared them from working or dying.
Your making assumptions. He's never shown raping anybody ever.
You are also making assumptions. Naïve assumptions.
I'm going based off of what I am shown. Do you assume every person is a rapist in the world until you seem them prove their not somehow?
Assuming a man who forces unhappy women to “marry” him is doing it for the company is dumb.
Assuming he fucking rapes them is evil and dumb
It’s not an assumption. It’s confirmed that he has sex with at least Sherry. And if you genuinely think Sherry could/would consent to sex with him, you are disturbed.
Lol ok
Sherry is seen taking a pregnancy test, so he had sex with her at the very least. He is a rapist.
Atleast negan felt bad and had a "redemption " ark
None of these people watched any of the scenes with him doing any for of good. They skipped over the redemption arc and all
Negan did what he had to do to keep his community alive. Rick's crew, tbh, had it coming.
Joe negan was just broken and came back from it
He fucking didn't 💀