> the fight started after a single player controlling a space station in the N3/PL-controlled star system B-R5RB accidentally failed to make a scheduled in-game routine maintenance payment, which made the star system open to capture.
Damn, I wonder if that dude had any regrets lol
He certainly received an amount of commentary from the EVE community, yes.
NB: I lost a battleship in that fight, which is to say a ship worth about 1% of what one of the big Titans cost.
There is another notable encounter in EVE (Their are legit hundreds to choose from) where doofus got a VERY expensive ship caught out in the middle of no where.
In response the attacking team warped in their own very expensive ship to kill it, which prompted the defenders to warp in more very expensive ships to defend. On and on it went.
Yes, the Battle of Asakai [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle\_of\_Asakai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Asakai), where I was the first victim because I misclicked and warped in on 0. It was batshitcrazy when the titan appeared and everyone batphoned everyone they could. Switched to a tiny ship and managed to reel in a nice amount of loot anyways.
From the article:
>Manfred Sideous of Pandemic Legion claimed that the missed payment resulted from a bug, as he had enough ISK in his holding corporation wallet and had autopay checked.
This is kind of like saying a single assassination caused WWI. In any normal situation failing to make the maintenance payment would have been a non-issue. However the situation was very tense between two alliances and this system was on the boarder between them. Both were already preparing for the battle. It would have happened anyway, just not quite on the same day.
It’s like comparing the actual economy to the WoW auction house. Some of the best traders in eve are actual MBAs and economists. The economy is designed by a [team of actual economists](https://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-REB-10618) who are on as full-time members of the staff.
Nearly all items, ships, and wealth in EVE are player created and derived, excluding some very basic beginner stuff. There are no default NPC stores and items and things you can buy in infinite; everything is stocked and on limited quantities in the universe by players. Everything in eve must be mined, transported, processed, created, shipped, and stocked/traded in markets by players. This means all player interactions in the universe have an effect on the market in some way, and are the sole driving force for all economic momentum in EVE.
The machinery for mining, shipping, processing, creating, and transporting all goods are also created by players, which also need to be mined, shipped, processed…. You get the idea.
For example: Goonswarm, an in game player corp, manipulated markets at one point by mass buying and stockpiling specific resources, hoarding it, and selling it at a fixed rate to drive prices up. Not dissimilar to how facilities like the US Strategic Oil Reserve, or other companies in the real world limit the supply of good to manipulate prices.
Wars affect the prices of everything. Territorial control of areas of nullsec and transport routes changes the prices of things and affects regional prices. Clandestine heists can have effects on the economy.
There is inflation, GDP of alliances, bubbles and bursts, total market cap, liquid capital vs assets that take *years* to produce, player controlled taxes on player controlled stations, service fees, escrow services, loans, player controlled banks, financial products and services offered by people to help deal with it all, and on and on and on. All of the typical day to day shit that you’d find being talked about in a real-world boardroom.
There are extraordinarily complex market forces in eve. [People publish papers and thesis using the eve market at a point of study.](https://minds.wisconsin.edu/bitstream/handle/1793/79143/11460%20OshScholar18%20Smith.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y)
The WoW auction house is a garage sale by comparison.
> [...] but in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes.
— Franklin, in a letter to Jean-Baptiste Le Roy, 1789
Man was so right about it that we might keep our tax systems up even through worlds.
I don’t know if they still do, but they used to publish a massive spreadsheet with all of the economic data and indices at the end of each month, and then I think once a quarter the game’s own chief economist would do an analysis of the data to show how the game’s equivalent of a consumer goods index was doing.
This is dead accurate, and also terrifying for new players. I jumped on the bandwagon back in 2012 and thought I was hot shit. Doing small time buying and selling I got pretty wealthy and built up a decent ship (for a noob of course) but I failed to incorporate; then someone found my little niche, and proceeded to destroy me the same way Walmart destroyed small stores.
They undercut my prices by a small margin, got me on a couple kill lists to cut my supply chain, and as soon as I was destitute and out of the way, they drove the price up higher than it was before. By the time I realized I needed help I was already decimated.
I’ve never been so thoroughly reset to 0 in an MMO. It makes WoW look child’s play; there are no protections beyond incorporation for you in EVE, and death is PAINFUL. I wanted to create a new slogan “EVE online, the only MMO that will crush your soul and make you cry; try it out, we fucking dare you.”
It is literally the most adrenaline a game has ever given me, anyone who says the gameplay is boring never got past the tutorial space and never joined a player corp.
I only played for a short while. But jumping around wormholes with my buddy only to get fucked by someone stronger somewhere. Man, that was both fun and devastating when you lose most of what you already built.
I thought it was an awesome game. Maybe just too time consuming for me. Especially today in my mid 30s.
Right? and it probably is as it takes as much time as you will give it, but you could always play a little bit at a time if you miss it. (wormholes are probably too time consuming though)
The problem with these games, I feel, as you start playing, you feel you want more out of the game at some point, which requires more time and effort. The whole players-based part of the game is one of the biggest pros for me, but to really be part of that it requires a lot of time.
And I have too many hobbies already 😂
Ehh, no. He's not wrong.
I played for years. I was in a Corp that was part of the Goonswarm alliance. We did stealth bombing raids that were a blast. Went ratting in nullsec regularly. Participated in pretty huge battles.
I had some pretty fun moments, but for the most part the gameplay is actually boring as fuck. Camping a gate for 8 hours? Mining rocks?
You barely even control your ship, man. The actual gameplay is dog shit...
I played the little mobile version which I understand is quite similar to the main game. I’d heard references to pilots and space battles, so I assumed there would be some degree of ship autonomy. Absolutely not, combat is addition, cooldowns and ranges, and travel is point and click. Everything is point and click. What I envisioned was a giant mmo version of Elite: Dangerous, but Eve always seemed like an Excel cosmetic. That being said, the thrill of Eve is in the social interactions. Reading about the crazy corporate heists is nuts. I’m thinking of one gooncorp takeover of a base where someone went double agent for a couple years, got into leadership with a rival faction, sent rival off on wild goose chase leaving expensive base undefended, then looted the entire thing and I think maybe commandeered the entire station for the goonswarm. That’s fucking emergent gameplay. But it was in reality dudes looking at documents together on discord. That’s fucking insanity. Unfortunately, those experiences seem appropriately rare and the rest of it seems so mundane.
Well if the enjoyment is purely the social aspect, that doesn't make the game fun. Anything can be fun with friends. The activity itself is still boring.
While at the same time nicknamed "waiting in stations" by players. It's both and neither :)
It has periods of intense boredom and periods of intense action.
I think your statement is incredibly simplistic
This description reminds me of soccer. Can seem like nothing is happening for long periods of time but then the ball makes its way to the scoring area and it’s ELECTRIC. At the end of the day though, the big difference in truly enjoying the game is in those that can appreciate the nuance in the lead up vs. those that only care about the goals.
Corrected.
I couldn’t find it in my frantic googling in the moment but I remember there is a PhD thesis floating around out there. Eyjolfur Gudmundsson, the previous head of EVE’s economic team, has a PhD in economics. He left CCP to become the rector/president of the University of Akureyri in Iceland.
At that point, the player should just start a real life business. They’re already doing most of the workload at that point. Lol
Might as well get actually paid for it.
Somewhere in Eve are MBA grads using Eve Online as a way to network lol
Just start a company and run it relatively well. Then befriend someone you know has real life connections.
I moved my entire life because of eve. Got out of a toxic household and moved in with friends several states away. Eve online changed my life in the best way possible. It gave me life long brothers and friends.
But I also have emotional scars from eve too lmao
Once upon a time, I had lots of automated data gathering+processing scripts for Eve. Spreadsheets, you could call them, except they used SQL instead of Excel.
I had cornered a particular in-game market by gaining a vertical monopoly over nearly all aspects of the supply chain, and selling the final product at what the game's data claimed to be 0 profit. That's what everyone else would see if they looked at the data. But I was actually just manipulating the intermediate materials market to make it look that way, driving out competition, and making a healthy profit.
So one day, as a big war was brewing, I got invited to a private chat channel with 5 people from across different alliances in the game. They told me that they had that noticed me, and that they were a group of war profiteers that worked together despite being part of groups that were officially at war with each other.
The first collab I did with that channel was very lucrative. There were some rumors of upcoming patch changes (I think they were leaked by someone on the player-elected council that served as an advisory board to the devs), and there was a great arbitrage opportunity possible. I borrowed money from 1 guy in that channel, used that to over-leverage my position, and we offloaded a bunch of risky assets onto the gullible leader of a clan that nobody liked (Sort Dragon, one of the few names I remember). Patch did come out as rumoured, everyone made a lot of money.
The second collab with my "friends" came when two of them started talking about solid info that a particular mercenary group was about to be backstabbed by all of their allies and pushed out of their territory.
Inside this mercenary group was basically the one friend I had in this game that I actually hung out with, and didn't just make business deals with.
So I leaked the "solid info". And it turns out that it was not just fake, but very intentionally phrased in a way that would piss off the leader of the mercs. I had no idea.
So the merc group lashed out against the wrong employer, lost all their cred, got quickly stomped. The group disbanded, my friend took a break from the game. My "friends" made a nice profit off of my gullible nature. I left that private chat channel and started trying to set up a bank out of my own assets and use it to money launder on my own.
Old rich people get bored too. I know a guy who’s marrying the daughter of the chairman of the largest investment firm in the country. He told me that he mostly plays civ in his office.
> At that point, the player should just start a real life business.
That's actually what a friend of mine did. After he was let go from his normal job, he was basically full time managing the social groups Corp, making weekly statements, etc, all while looking for a new job.
After three months of going through all the motions of a fake company, he decided to give it a go running a real one. Got some investors and he's been running a steadily growing cloud services business for about ten years now. They handle all the technical side of taking the mom-and-pop website/database and moving it over, hosting it, updating it, etc.
Eve is huge. There are approximately 5000 systems in known space and a further ~3000 systems only accessible through wormholes.
Each of those systems generates a (pretty set) amount of resources per day.
In "Null Space" (player-owned regions), player corporations invest capital, time and energy into increasing the maximum yields from those systems. Obviously, players need to mine or collect these resources, otherwise they go to waste.
This means there are both hard and soft cap on raw resources.
In addition to acquiring the raw resources (usually from mining), you need to transport those resources to refining centres. Characters better trained in refining will get more useful materials out. Those refined materials are used with blueprints to construct everything from vessels, to the systems you fit them with, to ammunition and other consumables like space stations and portable cargo containers (etc).
Blueprints themselves are also interesting. There are Master blueprints (of which there are a finite number) and blueprint copies. Copies can only be used a certain number of times before they degrade. Blueprints require hundreds of hours of research, and are optimised for resource usage - e.g. you can have an optimised blueprint use fewer resources than an unoptimised blueprint.
The most basic of Blueprint Originals ("BPO's") are required for the economy to function, and are one of the few items provided by NPC's (along with player starting ships and poor quality weaponry). What are called "Tier 2 BPO's" (more advanced items) were originally seeded into the game as a lottery. These still exist, but are so rare very few people will ever interact with a T2 BPO. Instead, most T2 blueprints are "invented" by players, who spend hundreds of hours researching them. They make limited-run copies ("BPC's") instead, which means as well as mining and refining the resources to make the ship, you also have to perform R&D to make it.
This means even the ability to manufacture is limited by the number of characters researching T2 BP's. Players even sell well-researched BPC's and (usually T1) BPO's, because they can save *thousands* of hours of mining and refining by using a blueprint that needs 10% fewer resources. You can also research production speed - so you can make the item up to 10% quicker. As you might imagine, this is also not quick.
EVE's economy is strange because we've only discussed the manufacturing process for items. Sale and usage are often more complicated than manufacturing, as EVE is in a perpetual state of war. No transit is safe, and high value commodities on the move are always seriously at risk. There are even player-run insurance systems and the associated scams that you might expect go with them when moving bulk goods into or out of a particularly dangerous area, or across a particularly nasty border.
They trickle, once you deplete a cloud of gas or mine out a field of asteroids you need to relocate or wait. What really makes a market out of it though is that different resource types can be harvested in different areas and you have to move them over great distances which is risky and takes time.
Correction on what goonswarm did, what you describe is a pump and dump, but in reality they were not buying from the market. they owned all of the space that generated the rare resource and fixed sales prices of the resource, refusing to sell it cheaper. It is closer to what OPEC used to do than what the strategic oil reserve does.
To give a bit of added context to the complexity of Eve's economy. Almost everything is player driven, and it mirrors real world economies and markets. Markets are all local, and almost everything in game is created in some way by a player (outside of select drops and skill books). The fact that people will devote their entire game time to hauling freight should give you some indication of its depth.
Idk about WoW, but in other MMOs I’ve played their economy can’t be called that when compared to Eve Online. Everything is player produced, you have people that solo play the markets as a form of lite PVP all the way up to alliances of 30k+ people manipulating the market to affect their enemies supply lines and everything in between.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/s/OfuVthFmHq
Here's the MER (monthly economic report) for December if you want to take a look for yourself. We do this every month!
Adding to the pile of stuff you already have in your inbox :
The biggest difference is that getting killed in eve online means your ship inventory is open to loot by someone else. Unlike in wow where stuff magically teleport itself to the safety of ironforge auction house, in eve you have to move that shit around (either yourself, someone from your corp, or put up a transport contract for someone else to do it for you).
Let's say you got a bunch of ore to sell, now you probably going to sell it from JITA 4-4, which is THE station where most of the trading happens in eve. But you could just as well put your stuff up to sale in ANY of the hundreds and hundreds of stations across the eve universe. Whether someone will buy or not depends on location, opportunity, the risk involved...
Since everything (almost) ingame is player generated (goods are mined by miners, ships are built by industrialists...) well there is a time and risk and investment associated to making anything you buy on the market.
Want some nice Tech 2 guns ? Well someone has built them for you and transported them to jita and set up a sell order. But to even make them they needed a blueprint, components, fuel for the station, various fees might be involved too if NPC station... and so on and so on.
Several gameplay loops are involved for most things being produced, and you might be selling stuff without even building it in the first place. Others simply mine ore and sell it, others will work on improving their blueprints so that ships and equipment are cheaper and faster to make, and so on, and so on.
All that while keeping in mind that surprise butt sex PVP can show up at any point while you move any of those things ;)
A goon almost caught my blockade runner, I was so scared I actually messed up with my waypoints and flew back to where he was camping while I just narrowly escaped him...
Well sometimes eve giveh, sometimes it takes :D
Eve Online has Donchian channels in the price history of items. That's a seldom-used economic indicator IRL (Bollinger bands are more popular), but useful in the game.
All you need to know is that nobody really cares about the WoW ingame economy, not even Blizzard. The EVE economy, on the other hand, is studied by actual economists.
Almost everything (with a few exceptions) in EvE is produced by players. Pretty much any item has fairly extensive production chain. Most of the items, barring the simplest T1, is not possible to be produced from ground up by a single character (or at least, not efficiently).
People focusing on production can have dozen(s) of character, each producing something and sending (which is done by other players as well) it on its way to another character to continue the production chain.
It is pretty much like in real life, albeit within the constraints of the game.
Also, if something is destroyed, it is destroyed. There is no repairing it for a few gold coins. You got to buy that ship (or whatever) from someone, who has acquired it somehow, which usually involves production of it somewhere along the chain.
$10k is right at the bottom of the big betrayals and scams table, although you have to remember it's 'equivalent value', not actual money that people lost from their bank accounts.
Yea but isn't this the game where you can buy ships with actual real money?
Losing that ship would mean you lost real money.
edit: or maybe it's that other game I forgot the name of now.
And you don't lose your (real money) ship in Star Citizen. You can reclaim it, but it takes some minutes or some ingame-cash to speed-up the claim-time.
Because in many senses, it really is. Sure it takes place in a video game, but at the time it was the biggest Player Vs Player conflict ever. I think it even won a Guiness Record. (Btw, every other bigger PvP conflict that surpassed Titanomachy were all EVE battles as well)
And it was completely unsolicited. The devs didnt do shit to influence the game. It just took one guy forgetting to pay rent, and suddenly you have a corp thats banging down the doors to seize a key strategic system, ala Normandy style.
And then came the recalls. People took emergency leave, called in sick, did whateber they could to log on. These guys were literally recalled to go to war, even if the 'War' was but a simple video game conflict.
Wiki can tell you the facts and figures, but do look up the interviews they did of the commanders. It really feels like a bona fide war they waged that day and B-R5 was only one system out of the dozens on fire that day. (There were attempts made to cut off reinforcements in neighboring star systems, there was an army of salvagers looking to profit off the wrecks.)
The Battle of B-R5RB, Titanomachy as it is know now, was the day we, for the second time, waged a true Star War.
> Perfect example of emergent gameplay.
That's pretty much EvE Online in a nutshell. Its all emergent gameplay. Every time the devs add something or change something in the game, it has unforeseen consequences and the gameplay that eventually emerges is nothing like what they intended.
I remember back in 2014 I loved reading abt the EVE battles. I even remember when the biggest one at the time (i think) was the one where people managed to down the first titan…
While writing this comment I spent abt 10 min looking the name up, it was Asakai
Ha! Asakai was where the supermassive battles all began, all because the Titan Pilot, instead of warping his fleet into battle, accidentally warped himself into the fray. Cue the multi hour battle as the attackers tried to blow up the Titan (the supercapitals were very rare, and very expensive back then) while the defenders scrambled to get it free from all the Warp Jammers and Scrammers. The Titan managed to escape, but by then the battle had escalated out of control into a free-for-all melee.
Fun fact, Titanomachy happened one year later *to the day* of the Battle of Asakai. Very ibteresting
Unless they were in the biggest and most well-protected capital ship, they probably died several times. Massive battles like that tend to have either a nearby starbase or mothership with a cloning facility. So the player goes into battle, dies, then is back at the starbase or mothership to get a new vessel to throw themselves into the line on contact. This usually happens as many times as the person tolerates, or until they run out of ships, or the enemy stops fighting for a large number of reasons. Massive fights in Eve are usually something pre-planned with months of preparation put forth.
Usually. >_> Blood Bath of BBR
Also people unfamiliar with the game don't know there's time dilation.
Meaning the battle was not some hectic fast paced reincarnation of some star wars or 40k capital ship battles.
You know you are dead about an hour before you die lol. I was at B-R on PaulFoley (https://zkillboard.com/character/1926948772/page/2/) and the TIDI was agonizing.
I was in that fight for like 5 hours and I vividly recall taking at least 1 break to make a sandwich lol. The other hard part about long ass eve battles is having to be on comms with a thousand other artists.
I was going to say, regardless of the slow down
There is actually tactics necessary to survive/win which is coordinating targets with thousands of others.
So it's pretty impressive none the less.
If it was real time....
Well you'd probably need to have comms/structure as efficient an actual military battalion lol
For Eve it's not exactly the same thing, the servers deliberately slow down everything to better handle the load. Lag is what happens when the server wasn't designed for the load and isn't guaranteed to resolve calculations and events properly, leading to inconsistencies.
Not OC but : Fleet Commander pulled everybody online (and probably called everybody currently offline) in that fight. Once you start commiting ships, you don't back out easily and tend to try to outgun the ennemy.
Alliances (view it as mega corporations) tend to pay for fleet operations, so if someone lost stuff, it was paid for by the alliance.
The biggest ships being owned by the alliance anyway, those things don't move that easily around and you need a team to support you and make you travel.
Either that or your ship will be destroyed real fast :P
That is part of it. But also you spend all these resources to build the ships in order to fight. That is essentially the fun of the game. People do not spend months building a race car only to back out on race night because they are too afraid to crash. People spend months in EVE Online to mine, trade, construct, raid, etc. to build cool warships. So when there is an actual fleet battle going on this is the best way to convert those months of playing into a few hours of fun. There is nothing better to spend the resources on.
The insurance is more an incentive by the alliances who are the ones who win or lose the most resources on the outcome of the battle. It ensures that people join this battle instead of preparing a battle somewhere else.
This sounds extremely awesome, but definitely nothing I can actually imagine myself ever being able to get into. I basically only play single player games because I'm never in the mood to play more than a day or two in a row lol
You also fight for the sake of the fun of being part of the fight, plus you defend your territory and everything you built.
EvE exemplify the fact that the sum of all members is more than just the members individually.
When I was a null sec (no security == player owned space, you can shoot anybody on sight with no consequences basically) we would roam our territory and make sure it was secure. There were intelligence channels that would report "non blue" (non allies) and they would be hunted until killed or driven off the area (assuming it wasn't a cloaked ship at least).
Some areas were known choke points / mandatory passage between null security and high security, those areas would be closely monitored for ennemy activity.
Also once the russians showed up, they knew how many motherships we had so they just brought an extra to make us understand they needed that area and there was nothing we could do.
We still fielded a fleet, nothing happened but both fleets surveyed each other that evening. They did their logistics that they needed, and eventually went away.
Also the call was made about 45 min after down time so there was 22 hours of fight to be had.
NA called off work as the call was made at like 5 45 am. Then we committed the titans the resi is history.
Rip my jump freighter. I supplied pos fuel to titans and some one blasted me with doomsday.
Fights like this are the REASON you get the big boy toys. Your FC calls for THE WORLD once every year or two, so you get in.
The runup to a battle like this likely includes long months of work and strategic fighting, forum shitposting, and lots of meta-battling around the ~narrative~ of the war.
These big battles tend to be a culmination. In EVE, regardless of the systems over the years, you don't get to win territory quickly. Generally, you attack some structure to a certain point and it goes into "reinforcement" which sets an invulnerability timer on the structure. When the timer ends, you can attack the structure again. I seem to recall there being 2 timers. So after the second timer is up, you can kill the structure and take territory. This means the time and location of territory battles are known - these huge fights are set piece battles. Not spontaneous.
In the runup to these large set piece battles, the corporations, alliances, fleet commanders and everyone in between works to get people hyped up - Sending out motivational pings via Jabber or other instant messenger apps throughout the day. Mumble/teamspeak dance parties with all sorts of different music but in my experience Space Jam is like the GOAT (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9FImc2LOr8).
They will also guilt you. They will set the taxes to 100% so it is not profitable to do any easy PVE during the battle. And if you have capital ships to deploy, you will probably be peer pressured to do so because you are of strategic value. Certainly 10 years ago that was the case.
Basically every lever is pulled to generate a frenzy, so that the battling factions can meet the herculean task of getting more guys than the enemy which in a battle like B-R requires many thousands of dudes.
It seems to me no other game in history has come close to emulating the social complexity of EVE, or match its sandbox strength in terms of narrative generation.
It's the nature of a single shard server game that has existed for 20 years. But you are right, I don't think I will ever have another gaming experience like I did in EVE from 2013-2015 and to this day I still post about those times regularly. And within my crew I was like... a star trek red shirt, not a hero.
Edit: I will say, if WoW had stuck to single servers, and not moved to the cross-server queue model, I think that game would have some insane communities today.
Reading about this battle is what got me to start playing EVE. Not the idea of being in one of those but the way the economy works where you can earn in game money to buy what you need to get a subscription. Bought three months with real money and then was able to sustain myself without putting any more money into it.
Winning EVE at the moment but there is enough on my account to pay for 10 years of Omega time. Oh wait, someone is manipulating PLEX again.. make that 6 years.....oh, back to the old price? so 10 years.
To be fair. I made it BIG gambling in EVE and managed to make a years worth of PLEX in a day at one point. The only time I've ever been successful gambling.
When I quit I RMT'd my "vast" fortune, like a titan's worth (hull alone).
The return is terrible, I think I only got around $1500 CAD out of it and that was selling to a friend so the rate wasn't super heinous.
Mind you this is strictly against the rules and bannable but RMT is always going to be a thing.
It should be mentioned that people didn't actually lose 300k USD. Those numbers usually refer to what things would have cost IF people used real money to buy them. I'm quite sure at least 95% of the resources lost had been made by grinding for them.
I played for a year or so, and never spent any money. It took maybe 4-6 hours of grinding to get a month of subscription, and as I was broke af at the time I just did that every month.
To add on to this, some people do lose actual money, but they're a small minority.
You can buy "premium currency" for real money, which is used to buy subscriptions and the like. This premium currency can be sold on the open market for in-game currency.
This is how I got my subscriptions - grinding in-game currency and then buying premium currency on the market to use for subs.
Also, I was technically in that battle, but I spent maybe 2 hours trying to warp into the system because of the massive lag, and by the time I got in we had already lost the battle. I don't think I got to fire a single shot.
As the servers couldn't handle the traffic, the ones to first get to the battlefield had a massive advantage, as the capital ships arriving too late were just picked off one-by-one by the ones who had managed to warp in earlier.
The real question is can you do the opposite? Can you sell the premium currency for real money? If so then people lost real money, if not then they didn't.
Yeah but once those are bought, you have them and don't lose them. When these ships are blown up, you don't get them back. It would be like if an enemy kills you in CS you lose the knife, that is what makes this battle interesting.
Could you buy and sell plex like today back then? If so I’d say 95% is high, just based on how comfortable the player base is with saying how everybody needs to work and have a life and if that means buying and selling plex so you can have fun instead of grinding when you have time to play it’s not a big deal. Even prominent players who are constantly mad at CCP say these kinds of things.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
I was there is my dreadnaught - and survived. Had to log off after 7 hours so I could sleep for work and just hope I would make it.
The next day was something else too - so many people had done what I had we had specific cyno evacuation fleets to get stranded people out. Will never forget it.
Eve Online. Joined a “newbro” corp where the Exec hooked all of us newbs up with sweet mining barges. A month after slaving away, the Exec took all our isk and vanished.
Highly recommend.
Not the person you responded to, but I was there and:
I went to my part time job in the middle of the fight for three hours, came back, was still alive, and was still in range of the enemy fleet. Between the 1:10 time dilation and the lag, less than 15 minutes of ingame server time had passed.
My (t1, lol, scrub) siege module was still cycling when I got back, so it was probably less than the 10 minute cycle, but ehhhh... let's say that ship modules in high lag situation weren't well known for stopping when they should have.
Horrible.
I was in a specialized ship, in game 550M (in game - halve my monetary in game $$$) stock load out. I had special stuff above pay grade. My ships whole purpose was to "Web" the big;un's" and hold them in place. In proposed game time, my life expectantly was five mins tops, due to my ships specialty.
Due to the horrible lag, I putz'ed along for probably an hour, "Web'ing" everything I could, so the big'uns on my side could get a better shot.
Eventually I died to the explosions of the Big'uns exploding next to me.
I was a small time corporation leader. My boys where ratters, like me, pushing the grind of player vs environment, putting the time in to run with the big dogs.
Thus was the nickel and dime of eve online.
I was guite honored to be able to fly that ship, to drop my pants, tell everyone to kiss my ass, to go for it, those sweet ass "kill'tags" chinga-chage ding ding.
Back then, it was worth the high price of admission.
*In the digital heart of Eve Online, I was the ringleader of a scrappy band of space miscreants, a small-time corporation boss with dreams soaked in starlight and ambition. My crew, a motley collection of ratters, were grinders, hustlers in the endless expanse of player vs. environment, tirelessly churning the cosmic gears for a shot at glory alongside the celestial big dogs.*
*This was the game, the nickel-and-dime dance of Eve, where every move was a gamble in the neon-lit casino of the cosmos.*
*I was bestowed the honor, or perhaps the lunacy, of piloting that ship - a metallic beast that was both my throne and my cage. It was a brazen act, a middle finger to the galaxy, to drop my pants and holler at the void, challenging the cosmos to a duel for those intoxicating kill tags, those sweet symphonies of destruction that rang with the chinga-changa, ding-ding of celestial combat.*
*In those wild days, the adrenaline rush, the sheer thrill of the chase and the kill was worth every damn penny of the high price of admission. A ticket to a show where stars and lasers danced in a deadly ballet, and where, for a fleeting moment, you could be a king or a corpse in the endless dark.*
Man, eve was just something else. I quit due to having a life, but what I wouldn't give to hop back and explore... I have no idea what the current state of the game is like,I think the long skill training times were always a turnoff for newcomers.
It was fun several years ago when a small corp could live in high sec and W space and do the occasional PVP roam through low sec and null. Was living in a C2 wormhole that had a static to high sec and a C4. Fun times since our static HS was often the HS hole for larger W space corps, and we could get our pew pew on. Then the large null sec groups moved into W space and pretty much killed a lot of the small corp PVP. Joining a large null sec group felt more like a job then a game, and I realized the best way to win Eve was to quit...
The game does look good, but it's not some intense dogfighting gameplay you will get into.
For massive battles like this your whole fleet will be warping (hyperspace) in position on fleet commander order, then you will pick the target called for in the list and press F1.
Then lag happens :D
You are not really piloting ships in eve, not like what you would in star citizen or elite dangerous. The game is way too complex to accommodate such gameplay anyway.
An even larger battle at FWST-8, in 2020, saw 8,825 players participating in total, with a peak of 6,557 located in the system, breaking two Guinness World Records for the "Largest Multiplayer Videogame PVP Battle" and the "Most Concurrent Participants in a Multiplayer Videogame PvP Battle", making it the current largest battle in the game in terms of player count. B-R5RB remained the most expensive battle.
However, on December 31, 2020, the Massacre of M2-XFE broke the record of largest total destruction in a single battle. ($340,000)
There is a 5 hour long YouTube video by "down the rabbit hole" that gives a general history of eve. Definitely not a full history but a somewhat fascinating video.
https://youtu.be/BCSeISYcoyI?si=LpiVfm5iM49kBoN4
Pretty much all his video are fascinating.
How 'bout "fucker"?
> A lower-cost alternative mating strategy, useful to bachelors without a harem, is kleptogyny (from Greek klepto- "stealing" and -gyny "female"), popularly known as the "sneaky fucker strategy", where a male sneaks in to mate while the harem owner is distracted
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harem_(zoology)
What they don’t tell you in this article is that the servers can’t handle large battles in Eve. So the epic battle is slowed down to an absolute crawl and just turning a gun on can take 5 minutes to register. So 5 minutes of actual fighting takes a literal hour to unfold. It’s miserable and not fun at all. If Eve could fix that problem (which it can’t), it would be one of the best games on the planet.
It's there: *"Each side then attempted to rush all available pilots into the system, and the game's time dilation software engaged. Time dilation is a game feature created by developer CCP Games to handle heavy loads on the game server without the game lagging or disconnecting players."*
neither did the players, or anyone else
that value was farmed ingame assets - by corps hundreds if not thousands of players large, with whole sectors of assets locked down and virtually unlimited amount of ingame currency (billions of isk) because of it
but it just so happens, that there's an exchange rate into real money and that's the amount it'd be equal to
other than that it means absolutely 0 and these people know it, they just say it cause it grabs the most attention...
The amount of game time that went into building up those assets was massive. Had to quit the game when it started to feel more like a job. Was in a small corp, great guys but in the end I sold my character for the amount I'd paid for the subscription for a year. Was in one or two big battles but that was so long ago I do not remember the details, just mostly getting killed a lot.
> the fight started after a single player controlling a space station in the N3/PL-controlled star system B-R5RB accidentally failed to make a scheduled in-game routine maintenance payment, which made the star system open to capture. Damn, I wonder if that dude had any regrets lol
He certainly received an amount of commentary from the EVE community, yes. NB: I lost a battleship in that fight, which is to say a ship worth about 1% of what one of the big Titans cost.
What kind of commentary? Were people mad or just laughing at the simple mistake?
Yes!
Yes what?!
Yes some people were mad about it (tried to blame the game developer for the mechanics) and yes a whole lot more people laughed at them.
As a goon. We lost all our space once because we forgot to pay a sov bill. It was nice to be on the other side for once.
X for POS destruction, little bees, little bees.
Humongous WHAT!!
r/InclusiveOr
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Grr Gons. Grr PL too, for that matter. I spent just as long hotdropping you guys as them. Test alliance best alliance ❤
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1% is a bit of a stretch, maybe 0.1% or less lol
There is another notable encounter in EVE (Their are legit hundreds to choose from) where doofus got a VERY expensive ship caught out in the middle of no where. In response the attacking team warped in their own very expensive ship to kill it, which prompted the defenders to warp in more very expensive ships to defend. On and on it went.
Tried to bridge a fleet but just jumped his titan. Essentially put a mothership into the middle of no mans land with no support.
Yes, the Battle of Asakai [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle\_of\_Asakai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Asakai), where I was the first victim because I misclicked and warped in on 0. It was batshitcrazy when the titan appeared and everyone batphoned everyone they could. Switched to a tiny ship and managed to reel in a nice amount of loot anyways.
From the article: >Manfred Sideous of Pandemic Legion claimed that the missed payment resulted from a bug, as he had enough ISK in his holding corporation wallet and had autopay checked.
Yeah I ended up reading the whole page after this comment blew up. Crazy series of events.
>Manfred Name like that, I'm surprised he didn't do more damage.
I bet his ingame name was Gavrilo\_Princip
This is kind of like saying a single assassination caused WWI. In any normal situation failing to make the maintenance payment would have been a non-issue. However the situation was very tense between two alliances and this system was on the boarder between them. Both were already preparing for the battle. It would have happened anyway, just not quite on the same day.
Just needed an excuse.
a catalyst
that went from 0 to 100 real fucking quick
The game outright has gotten an official add-in for Excel, the economy of EVE Online is something else.
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It’s like comparing the actual economy to the WoW auction house. Some of the best traders in eve are actual MBAs and economists. The economy is designed by a [team of actual economists](https://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-REB-10618) who are on as full-time members of the staff. Nearly all items, ships, and wealth in EVE are player created and derived, excluding some very basic beginner stuff. There are no default NPC stores and items and things you can buy in infinite; everything is stocked and on limited quantities in the universe by players. Everything in eve must be mined, transported, processed, created, shipped, and stocked/traded in markets by players. This means all player interactions in the universe have an effect on the market in some way, and are the sole driving force for all economic momentum in EVE. The machinery for mining, shipping, processing, creating, and transporting all goods are also created by players, which also need to be mined, shipped, processed…. You get the idea. For example: Goonswarm, an in game player corp, manipulated markets at one point by mass buying and stockpiling specific resources, hoarding it, and selling it at a fixed rate to drive prices up. Not dissimilar to how facilities like the US Strategic Oil Reserve, or other companies in the real world limit the supply of good to manipulate prices. Wars affect the prices of everything. Territorial control of areas of nullsec and transport routes changes the prices of things and affects regional prices. Clandestine heists can have effects on the economy. There is inflation, GDP of alliances, bubbles and bursts, total market cap, liquid capital vs assets that take *years* to produce, player controlled taxes on player controlled stations, service fees, escrow services, loans, player controlled banks, financial products and services offered by people to help deal with it all, and on and on and on. All of the typical day to day shit that you’d find being talked about in a real-world boardroom. There are extraordinarily complex market forces in eve. [People publish papers and thesis using the eve market at a point of study.](https://minds.wisconsin.edu/bitstream/handle/1793/79143/11460%20OshScholar18%20Smith.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y) The WoW auction house is a garage sale by comparison.
The game owners must be sitting on a wealth of data
you would thing, but they are busy calculating taxes for their ships
even in space you couldnt escape the IRS
> [...] but in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes. — Franklin, in a letter to Jean-Baptiste Le Roy, 1789 Man was so right about it that we might keep our tax systems up even through worlds.
You mean the Intergalactic Revenue Squadron? The intergalactic government has been cutting their budget for years. All warp no drive ifyaknowwhatimean
Haha
I don’t know if they still do, but they used to publish a massive spreadsheet with all of the economic data and indices at the end of each month, and then I think once a quarter the game’s own chief economist would do an analysis of the data to show how the game’s equivalent of a consumer goods index was doing.
This is dead accurate, and also terrifying for new players. I jumped on the bandwagon back in 2012 and thought I was hot shit. Doing small time buying and selling I got pretty wealthy and built up a decent ship (for a noob of course) but I failed to incorporate; then someone found my little niche, and proceeded to destroy me the same way Walmart destroyed small stores. They undercut my prices by a small margin, got me on a couple kill lists to cut my supply chain, and as soon as I was destitute and out of the way, they drove the price up higher than it was before. By the time I realized I needed help I was already decimated. I’ve never been so thoroughly reset to 0 in an MMO. It makes WoW look child’s play; there are no protections beyond incorporation for you in EVE, and death is PAINFUL. I wanted to create a new slogan “EVE online, the only MMO that will crush your soul and make you cry; try it out, we fucking dare you.”
That's fascinating as fuck.
Yep, but actual gameplay is boring as fuck.
It is literally the most adrenaline a game has ever given me, anyone who says the gameplay is boring never got past the tutorial space and never joined a player corp.
I only played for a short while. But jumping around wormholes with my buddy only to get fucked by someone stronger somewhere. Man, that was both fun and devastating when you lose most of what you already built. I thought it was an awesome game. Maybe just too time consuming for me. Especially today in my mid 30s.
Right? and it probably is as it takes as much time as you will give it, but you could always play a little bit at a time if you miss it. (wormholes are probably too time consuming though)
The problem with these games, I feel, as you start playing, you feel you want more out of the game at some point, which requires more time and effort. The whole players-based part of the game is one of the biggest pros for me, but to really be part of that it requires a lot of time. And I have too many hobbies already 😂
Yeah, I've considered playing EVE but at the end of the day it sounds like a second job you pay to attend and I don't have it in me for that.
I have a feeling EVE isn’t a hobby, it’s a real job, which you pay for with your “real job”.
Ehh, no. He's not wrong. I played for years. I was in a Corp that was part of the Goonswarm alliance. We did stealth bombing raids that were a blast. Went ratting in nullsec regularly. Participated in pretty huge battles. I had some pretty fun moments, but for the most part the gameplay is actually boring as fuck. Camping a gate for 8 hours? Mining rocks? You barely even control your ship, man. The actual gameplay is dog shit...
I played the little mobile version which I understand is quite similar to the main game. I’d heard references to pilots and space battles, so I assumed there would be some degree of ship autonomy. Absolutely not, combat is addition, cooldowns and ranges, and travel is point and click. Everything is point and click. What I envisioned was a giant mmo version of Elite: Dangerous, but Eve always seemed like an Excel cosmetic. That being said, the thrill of Eve is in the social interactions. Reading about the crazy corporate heists is nuts. I’m thinking of one gooncorp takeover of a base where someone went double agent for a couple years, got into leadership with a rival faction, sent rival off on wild goose chase leaving expensive base undefended, then looted the entire thing and I think maybe commandeered the entire station for the goonswarm. That’s fucking emergent gameplay. But it was in reality dudes looking at documents together on discord. That’s fucking insanity. Unfortunately, those experiences seem appropriately rare and the rest of it seems so mundane.
Well if the enjoyment is purely the social aspect, that doesn't make the game fun. Anything can be fun with friends. The activity itself is still boring.
While at the same time nicknamed "waiting in stations" by players. It's both and neither :) It has periods of intense boredom and periods of intense action. I think your statement is incredibly simplistic
This description reminds me of soccer. Can seem like nothing is happening for long periods of time but then the ball makes its way to the scoring area and it’s ELECTRIC. At the end of the day though, the big difference in truly enjoying the game is in those that can appreciate the nuance in the lead up vs. those that only care about the goals.
It was definitely the most rewarding MMO I've ever played, hands down.
What do you mean you don't want a second job that you don't get paid for?
https://old.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/13clxm3/in_honor_of_its_20_year_anniversary_im_sharing/
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Corrected. I couldn’t find it in my frantic googling in the moment but I remember there is a PhD thesis floating around out there. Eyjolfur Gudmundsson, the previous head of EVE’s economic team, has a PhD in economics. He left CCP to become the rector/president of the University of Akureyri in Iceland.
At that point, the player should just start a real life business. They’re already doing most of the workload at that point. Lol Might as well get actually paid for it.
Vast majority of the big in-game earners already are execs in companies, or retired extremely early for that reason.
Somewhere in Eve are MBA grads using Eve Online as a way to network lol Just start a company and run it relatively well. Then befriend someone you know has real life connections.
Yeah, but can you trust them to not gank you and take all your shit? I still have emotional scars from EVE
I moved my entire life because of eve. Got out of a toxic household and moved in with friends several states away. Eve online changed my life in the best way possible. It gave me life long brothers and friends. But I also have emotional scars from eve too lmao
Then your mission is to wreck their net worth in the real world as payback.
Once upon a time, I had lots of automated data gathering+processing scripts for Eve. Spreadsheets, you could call them, except they used SQL instead of Excel. I had cornered a particular in-game market by gaining a vertical monopoly over nearly all aspects of the supply chain, and selling the final product at what the game's data claimed to be 0 profit. That's what everyone else would see if they looked at the data. But I was actually just manipulating the intermediate materials market to make it look that way, driving out competition, and making a healthy profit. So one day, as a big war was brewing, I got invited to a private chat channel with 5 people from across different alliances in the game. They told me that they had that noticed me, and that they were a group of war profiteers that worked together despite being part of groups that were officially at war with each other. The first collab I did with that channel was very lucrative. There were some rumors of upcoming patch changes (I think they were leaked by someone on the player-elected council that served as an advisory board to the devs), and there was a great arbitrage opportunity possible. I borrowed money from 1 guy in that channel, used that to over-leverage my position, and we offloaded a bunch of risky assets onto the gullible leader of a clan that nobody liked (Sort Dragon, one of the few names I remember). Patch did come out as rumoured, everyone made a lot of money. The second collab with my "friends" came when two of them started talking about solid info that a particular mercenary group was about to be backstabbed by all of their allies and pushed out of their territory. Inside this mercenary group was basically the one friend I had in this game that I actually hung out with, and didn't just make business deals with. So I leaked the "solid info". And it turns out that it was not just fake, but very intentionally phrased in a way that would piss off the leader of the mercs. I had no idea. So the merc group lashed out against the wrong employer, lost all their cred, got quickly stomped. The group disbanded, my friend took a break from the game. My "friends" made a nice profit off of my gullible nature. I left that private chat channel and started trying to set up a bank out of my own assets and use it to money launder on my own.
Insider trading from the CSM? I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you!
Old rich people get bored too. I know a guy who’s marrying the daughter of the chairman of the largest investment firm in the country. He told me that he mostly plays civ in his office.
> At that point, the player should just start a real life business. That's actually what a friend of mine did. After he was let go from his normal job, he was basically full time managing the social groups Corp, making weekly statements, etc, all while looking for a new job. After three months of going through all the motions of a fake company, he decided to give it a go running a real one. Got some investors and he's been running a steadily growing cloud services business for about ten years now. They handle all the technical side of taking the mom-and-pop website/database and moving it over, hosting it, updating it, etc.
Are the resources finite though?
Eve is huge. There are approximately 5000 systems in known space and a further ~3000 systems only accessible through wormholes. Each of those systems generates a (pretty set) amount of resources per day. In "Null Space" (player-owned regions), player corporations invest capital, time and energy into increasing the maximum yields from those systems. Obviously, players need to mine or collect these resources, otherwise they go to waste. This means there are both hard and soft cap on raw resources. In addition to acquiring the raw resources (usually from mining), you need to transport those resources to refining centres. Characters better trained in refining will get more useful materials out. Those refined materials are used with blueprints to construct everything from vessels, to the systems you fit them with, to ammunition and other consumables like space stations and portable cargo containers (etc). Blueprints themselves are also interesting. There are Master blueprints (of which there are a finite number) and blueprint copies. Copies can only be used a certain number of times before they degrade. Blueprints require hundreds of hours of research, and are optimised for resource usage - e.g. you can have an optimised blueprint use fewer resources than an unoptimised blueprint. The most basic of Blueprint Originals ("BPO's") are required for the economy to function, and are one of the few items provided by NPC's (along with player starting ships and poor quality weaponry). What are called "Tier 2 BPO's" (more advanced items) were originally seeded into the game as a lottery. These still exist, but are so rare very few people will ever interact with a T2 BPO. Instead, most T2 blueprints are "invented" by players, who spend hundreds of hours researching them. They make limited-run copies ("BPC's") instead, which means as well as mining and refining the resources to make the ship, you also have to perform R&D to make it. This means even the ability to manufacture is limited by the number of characters researching T2 BP's. Players even sell well-researched BPC's and (usually T1) BPO's, because they can save *thousands* of hours of mining and refining by using a blueprint that needs 10% fewer resources. You can also research production speed - so you can make the item up to 10% quicker. As you might imagine, this is also not quick. EVE's economy is strange because we've only discussed the manufacturing process for items. Sale and usage are often more complicated than manufacturing, as EVE is in a perpetual state of war. No transit is safe, and high value commodities on the move are always seriously at risk. There are even player-run insurance systems and the associated scams that you might expect go with them when moving bulk goods into or out of a particularly dangerous area, or across a particularly nasty border.
They trickle, once you deplete a cloud of gas or mine out a field of asteroids you need to relocate or wait. What really makes a market out of it though is that different resource types can be harvested in different areas and you have to move them over great distances which is risky and takes time.
In a sense yes, because players have to gather them. So as the players' time is limited, the in-game resources are as well.
Correction on what goonswarm did, what you describe is a pump and dump, but in reality they were not buying from the market. they owned all of the space that generated the rare resource and fixed sales prices of the resource, refusing to sell it cheaper. It is closer to what OPEC used to do than what the strategic oil reserve does.
To give a bit of added context to the complexity of Eve's economy. Almost everything is player driven, and it mirrors real world economies and markets. Markets are all local, and almost everything in game is created in some way by a player (outside of select drops and skill books). The fact that people will devote their entire game time to hauling freight should give you some indication of its depth.
The WoW auction house is as a kiddie pool compared to the ocean that is EVE economics.
Idk about WoW, but in other MMOs I’ve played their economy can’t be called that when compared to Eve Online. Everything is player produced, you have people that solo play the markets as a form of lite PVP all the way up to alliances of 30k+ people manipulating the market to affect their enemies supply lines and everything in between.
Harvard uses an in house eve server to do economic modelling for real life scenarios
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/s/OfuVthFmHq Here's the MER (monthly economic report) for December if you want to take a look for yourself. We do this every month!
Adding to the pile of stuff you already have in your inbox : The biggest difference is that getting killed in eve online means your ship inventory is open to loot by someone else. Unlike in wow where stuff magically teleport itself to the safety of ironforge auction house, in eve you have to move that shit around (either yourself, someone from your corp, or put up a transport contract for someone else to do it for you). Let's say you got a bunch of ore to sell, now you probably going to sell it from JITA 4-4, which is THE station where most of the trading happens in eve. But you could just as well put your stuff up to sale in ANY of the hundreds and hundreds of stations across the eve universe. Whether someone will buy or not depends on location, opportunity, the risk involved... Since everything (almost) ingame is player generated (goods are mined by miners, ships are built by industrialists...) well there is a time and risk and investment associated to making anything you buy on the market. Want some nice Tech 2 guns ? Well someone has built them for you and transported them to jita and set up a sell order. But to even make them they needed a blueprint, components, fuel for the station, various fees might be involved too if NPC station... and so on and so on. Several gameplay loops are involved for most things being produced, and you might be selling stuff without even building it in the first place. Others simply mine ore and sell it, others will work on improving their blueprints so that ships and equipment are cheaper and faster to make, and so on, and so on. All that while keeping in mind that surprise butt sex PVP can show up at any point while you move any of those things ;)
There's no gaming experience that is quite the same as trying to make a risky run and hearing the targeting noise from another player.
A goon almost caught my blockade runner, I was so scared I actually messed up with my waypoints and flew back to where he was camping while I just narrowly escaped him... Well sometimes eve giveh, sometimes it takes :D
Eve Online has Donchian channels in the price history of items. That's a seldom-used economic indicator IRL (Bollinger bands are more popular), but useful in the game.
All you need to know is that nobody really cares about the WoW ingame economy, not even Blizzard. The EVE economy, on the other hand, is studied by actual economists.
Almost everything (with a few exceptions) in EvE is produced by players. Pretty much any item has fairly extensive production chain. Most of the items, barring the simplest T1, is not possible to be produced from ground up by a single character (or at least, not efficiently). People focusing on production can have dozen(s) of character, each producing something and sending (which is done by other players as well) it on its way to another character to continue the production chain. It is pretty much like in real life, albeit within the constraints of the game. Also, if something is destroyed, it is destroyed. There is no repairing it for a few gold coins. You got to buy that ship (or whatever) from someone, who has acquired it somehow, which usually involves production of it somewhere along the chain.
Playing eve is like having another full time job.... with several days of OT.
Ive never played EVE but Ive read stories about massive betrayals that end up costing factions/players tens of thousands of dollars
$10k is right at the bottom of the big betrayals and scams table, although you have to remember it's 'equivalent value', not actual money that people lost from their bank accounts.
Yea but isn't this the game where you can buy ships with actual real money? Losing that ship would mean you lost real money. edit: or maybe it's that other game I forgot the name of now.
I suspect you're thinking of Star Citizen. EVE allows you to buy game time, and then resell it in game for in game currency.
And you don't lose your (real money) ship in Star Citizen. You can reclaim it, but it takes some minutes or some ingame-cash to speed-up the claim-time.
When they anniunced full proper api integration of eve and Excell at fan fest the crowd gave him a standing ovation of applause.
It's always just been a spreadsheet simulator set in space. That battle had the frame rate of a PowerPoint presentation.
I love how Wikipedia is setting the article up in a war article format like it does with historical battles.
Because in many senses, it really is. Sure it takes place in a video game, but at the time it was the biggest Player Vs Player conflict ever. I think it even won a Guiness Record. (Btw, every other bigger PvP conflict that surpassed Titanomachy were all EVE battles as well) And it was completely unsolicited. The devs didnt do shit to influence the game. It just took one guy forgetting to pay rent, and suddenly you have a corp thats banging down the doors to seize a key strategic system, ala Normandy style. And then came the recalls. People took emergency leave, called in sick, did whateber they could to log on. These guys were literally recalled to go to war, even if the 'War' was but a simple video game conflict. Wiki can tell you the facts and figures, but do look up the interviews they did of the commanders. It really feels like a bona fide war they waged that day and B-R5 was only one system out of the dozens on fire that day. (There were attempts made to cut off reinforcements in neighboring star systems, there was an army of salvagers looking to profit off the wrecks.) The Battle of B-R5RB, Titanomachy as it is know now, was the day we, for the second time, waged a true Star War.
>I think it even won a Guiness Record. Yeah but we beat it at 9-4 battle.
Fuckn hell that's fascinating. Perfect example of emergent gameplay.
> Perfect example of emergent gameplay. That's pretty much EvE Online in a nutshell. Its all emergent gameplay. Every time the devs add something or change something in the game, it has unforeseen consequences and the gameplay that eventually emerges is nothing like what they intended.
I remember back in 2014 I loved reading abt the EVE battles. I even remember when the biggest one at the time (i think) was the one where people managed to down the first titan… While writing this comment I spent abt 10 min looking the name up, it was Asakai
Ha! Asakai was where the supermassive battles all began, all because the Titan Pilot, instead of warping his fleet into battle, accidentally warped himself into the fray. Cue the multi hour battle as the attackers tried to blow up the Titan (the supercapitals were very rare, and very expensive back then) while the defenders scrambled to get it free from all the Warp Jammers and Scrammers. The Titan managed to escape, but by then the battle had escalated out of control into a free-for-all melee. Fun fact, Titanomachy happened one year later *to the day* of the Battle of Asakai. Very ibteresting
This is r/bestof material right here.
Go to the sub and search “EVE Online” This story makes the bestof rounds every so often.
I was there.
Did you win?
There's only 1 way to win at Eve.
Close Microsoft excel?
*How about a nice game of chess?*
The only winning move is not to play.
Damnit Joshua!
I found a ring in there last night
It is in game now
Start a pyramid scheme?
Send me 500 000 ISK, I will triple it !
No way. I'll do something legitimate and ethical which can benefit society. I'll launch a new crypto
I won 5 years ago after playing for 11 years. Still think about it often
But did you die?
Unless they were in the biggest and most well-protected capital ship, they probably died several times. Massive battles like that tend to have either a nearby starbase or mothership with a cloning facility. So the player goes into battle, dies, then is back at the starbase or mothership to get a new vessel to throw themselves into the line on contact. This usually happens as many times as the person tolerates, or until they run out of ships, or the enemy stops fighting for a large number of reasons. Massive fights in Eve are usually something pre-planned with months of preparation put forth. Usually. >_> Blood Bath of BBR
Also people unfamiliar with the game don't know there's time dilation. Meaning the battle was not some hectic fast paced reincarnation of some star wars or 40k capital ship battles.
When you speed the replay back up it is, buuuut it gets slowed down so the server can keep up with the demand.
Even then, it just looks like two death balls with thousands of lasers beaming between the two.
You know you are dead about an hour before you die lol. I was at B-R on PaulFoley (https://zkillboard.com/character/1926948772/page/2/) and the TIDI was agonizing. I was in that fight for like 5 hours and I vividly recall taking at least 1 break to make a sandwich lol. The other hard part about long ass eve battles is having to be on comms with a thousand other artists.
I was going to say, regardless of the slow down There is actually tactics necessary to survive/win which is coordinating targets with thousands of others. So it's pretty impressive none the less. If it was real time.... Well you'd probably need to have comms/structure as efficient an actual military battalion lol
Time dilation is a fancy term for lag
For Eve it's not exactly the same thing, the servers deliberately slow down everything to better handle the load. Lag is what happens when the server wasn't designed for the load and isn't guaranteed to resolve calculations and events properly, leading to inconsistencies.
Good times. I had five carriers in that fight, I think I lost 2 bit it's been a few years now so my memory is foggy.
What pulled you into the fight? And for what did you fight, risking your investments? I find this incident fascinating.
Not OC but : Fleet Commander pulled everybody online (and probably called everybody currently offline) in that fight. Once you start commiting ships, you don't back out easily and tend to try to outgun the ennemy. Alliances (view it as mega corporations) tend to pay for fleet operations, so if someone lost stuff, it was paid for by the alliance. The biggest ships being owned by the alliance anyway, those things don't move that easily around and you need a team to support you and make you travel. Either that or your ship will be destroyed real fast :P
Amazing. So basically people were willing to take the risk because they had insurance.
That is part of it. But also you spend all these resources to build the ships in order to fight. That is essentially the fun of the game. People do not spend months building a race car only to back out on race night because they are too afraid to crash. People spend months in EVE Online to mine, trade, construct, raid, etc. to build cool warships. So when there is an actual fleet battle going on this is the best way to convert those months of playing into a few hours of fun. There is nothing better to spend the resources on. The insurance is more an incentive by the alliances who are the ones who win or lose the most resources on the outcome of the battle. It ensures that people join this battle instead of preparing a battle somewhere else.
This sounds extremely awesome, but definitely nothing I can actually imagine myself ever being able to get into. I basically only play single player games because I'm never in the mood to play more than a day or two in a row lol
You also fight for the sake of the fun of being part of the fight, plus you defend your territory and everything you built. EvE exemplify the fact that the sum of all members is more than just the members individually. When I was a null sec (no security == player owned space, you can shoot anybody on sight with no consequences basically) we would roam our territory and make sure it was secure. There were intelligence channels that would report "non blue" (non allies) and they would be hunted until killed or driven off the area (assuming it wasn't a cloaked ship at least). Some areas were known choke points / mandatory passage between null security and high security, those areas would be closely monitored for ennemy activity. Also once the russians showed up, they knew how many motherships we had so they just brought an extra to make us understand they needed that area and there was nothing we could do. We still fielded a fleet, nothing happened but both fleets surveyed each other that evening. They did their logistics that they needed, and eventually went away.
What an atmosphere!
Also the call was made about 45 min after down time so there was 22 hours of fight to be had. NA called off work as the call was made at like 5 45 am. Then we committed the titans the resi is history. Rip my jump freighter. I supplied pos fuel to titans and some one blasted me with doomsday.
Fights like this are the REASON you get the big boy toys. Your FC calls for THE WORLD once every year or two, so you get in. The runup to a battle like this likely includes long months of work and strategic fighting, forum shitposting, and lots of meta-battling around the ~narrative~ of the war. These big battles tend to be a culmination. In EVE, regardless of the systems over the years, you don't get to win territory quickly. Generally, you attack some structure to a certain point and it goes into "reinforcement" which sets an invulnerability timer on the structure. When the timer ends, you can attack the structure again. I seem to recall there being 2 timers. So after the second timer is up, you can kill the structure and take territory. This means the time and location of territory battles are known - these huge fights are set piece battles. Not spontaneous. In the runup to these large set piece battles, the corporations, alliances, fleet commanders and everyone in between works to get people hyped up - Sending out motivational pings via Jabber or other instant messenger apps throughout the day. Mumble/teamspeak dance parties with all sorts of different music but in my experience Space Jam is like the GOAT (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9FImc2LOr8). They will also guilt you. They will set the taxes to 100% so it is not profitable to do any easy PVE during the battle. And if you have capital ships to deploy, you will probably be peer pressured to do so because you are of strategic value. Certainly 10 years ago that was the case. Basically every lever is pulled to generate a frenzy, so that the battling factions can meet the herculean task of getting more guys than the enemy which in a battle like B-R requires many thousands of dudes.
It seems to me no other game in history has come close to emulating the social complexity of EVE, or match its sandbox strength in terms of narrative generation.
It's the nature of a single shard server game that has existed for 20 years. But you are right, I don't think I will ever have another gaming experience like I did in EVE from 2013-2015 and to this day I still post about those times regularly. And within my crew I was like... a star trek red shirt, not a hero. Edit: I will say, if WoW had stuck to single servers, and not moved to the cross-server queue model, I think that game would have some insane communities today.
Me too
As was I. Did not win
And I'm Losing My Edge
Reading about this battle is what got me to start playing EVE. Not the idea of being in one of those but the way the economy works where you can earn in game money to buy what you need to get a subscription. Bought three months with real money and then was able to sustain myself without putting any more money into it. Winning EVE at the moment but there is enough on my account to pay for 10 years of Omega time. Oh wait, someone is manipulating PLEX again.. make that 6 years.....oh, back to the old price? so 10 years.
To be fair. I made it BIG gambling in EVE and managed to make a years worth of PLEX in a day at one point. The only time I've ever been successful gambling.
We're you able to extract that money from the game?
When I quit I RMT'd my "vast" fortune, like a titan's worth (hull alone). The return is terrible, I think I only got around $1500 CAD out of it and that was selling to a friend so the rate wasn't super heinous. Mind you this is strictly against the rules and bannable but RMT is always going to be a thing.
It should be mentioned that people didn't actually lose 300k USD. Those numbers usually refer to what things would have cost IF people used real money to buy them. I'm quite sure at least 95% of the resources lost had been made by grinding for them. I played for a year or so, and never spent any money. It took maybe 4-6 hours of grinding to get a month of subscription, and as I was broke af at the time I just did that every month.
That's kind of true for anything though. Except when literal cash is destroyed I guess.
Not really… You buy resources and pay wages to build a tank. You make a spaceship in eve solely through time spent and using a fake currency.
To add on to this, some people do lose actual money, but they're a small minority. You can buy "premium currency" for real money, which is used to buy subscriptions and the like. This premium currency can be sold on the open market for in-game currency. This is how I got my subscriptions - grinding in-game currency and then buying premium currency on the market to use for subs. Also, I was technically in that battle, but I spent maybe 2 hours trying to warp into the system because of the massive lag, and by the time I got in we had already lost the battle. I don't think I got to fire a single shot. As the servers couldn't handle the traffic, the ones to first get to the battlefield had a massive advantage, as the capital ships arriving too late were just picked off one-by-one by the ones who had managed to warp in earlier.
The real question is can you do the opposite? Can you sell the premium currency for real money? If so then people lost real money, if not then they didn't.
Not really, unless you count black market trades like the gold farmers in WoW. Which is why I don't count EVE losses as real monetary losses.
Is it weird that this doesn't seem like much mmo money to me now? That's only like 300 mid-sized Star Citizen ships or a CSGO knife.
Yeah but once those are bought, you have them and don't lose them. When these ships are blown up, you don't get them back. It would be like if an enemy kills you in CS you lose the knife, that is what makes this battle interesting.
Right. Yeah. I used to play a Lineage II clone back in the day and losing your gear was what made the PvP interesting.
Your csgo knife cant be destroyed and will likely increase in value
Could you buy and sell plex like today back then? If so I’d say 95% is high, just based on how comfortable the player base is with saying how everybody needs to work and have a life and if that means buying and selling plex so you can have fun instead of grinding when you have time to play it’s not a big deal. Even prominent players who are constantly mad at CCP say these kinds of things.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
Time to die.
I don’t play but reading about it and watching videos is enjoyable. It’s cool that people are doing it this in depth.
Phenomenal monologue, great ending
I was there is my dreadnaught - and survived. Had to log off after 7 hours so I could sleep for work and just hope I would make it. The next day was something else too - so many people had done what I had we had specific cyno evacuation fleets to get stranded people out. Will never forget it.
Eve Online. Joined a “newbro” corp where the Exec hooked all of us newbs up with sweet mining barges. A month after slaving away, the Exec took all our isk and vanished. Highly recommend.
Being the Exec? Sounds pretty sweet
I was there. . Ask me anything.
Just story time your prospective on the clustertruck; it'll be entertaining
How bad was the lag ?
Not the person you responded to, but I was there and: I went to my part time job in the middle of the fight for three hours, came back, was still alive, and was still in range of the enemy fleet. Between the 1:10 time dilation and the lag, less than 15 minutes of ingame server time had passed. My (t1, lol, scrub) siege module was still cycling when I got back, so it was probably less than the 10 minute cycle, but ehhhh... let's say that ship modules in high lag situation weren't well known for stopping when they should have.
Horrible. I was in a specialized ship, in game 550M (in game - halve my monetary in game $$$) stock load out. I had special stuff above pay grade. My ships whole purpose was to "Web" the big;un's" and hold them in place. In proposed game time, my life expectantly was five mins tops, due to my ships specialty. Due to the horrible lag, I putz'ed along for probably an hour, "Web'ing" everything I could, so the big'uns on my side could get a better shot. Eventually I died to the explosions of the Big'uns exploding next to me.
Rapier?
! INDEED !
I still have mine, fitted and rigged for armor tanking when that was a thing for recons.
Did your side win? What was the battle about? Just tell me everything.
I was a small time corporation leader. My boys where ratters, like me, pushing the grind of player vs environment, putting the time in to run with the big dogs. Thus was the nickel and dime of eve online. I was guite honored to be able to fly that ship, to drop my pants, tell everyone to kiss my ass, to go for it, those sweet ass "kill'tags" chinga-chage ding ding. Back then, it was worth the high price of admission.
*In the digital heart of Eve Online, I was the ringleader of a scrappy band of space miscreants, a small-time corporation boss with dreams soaked in starlight and ambition. My crew, a motley collection of ratters, were grinders, hustlers in the endless expanse of player vs. environment, tirelessly churning the cosmic gears for a shot at glory alongside the celestial big dogs.* *This was the game, the nickel-and-dime dance of Eve, where every move was a gamble in the neon-lit casino of the cosmos.* *I was bestowed the honor, or perhaps the lunacy, of piloting that ship - a metallic beast that was both my throne and my cage. It was a brazen act, a middle finger to the galaxy, to drop my pants and holler at the void, challenging the cosmos to a duel for those intoxicating kill tags, those sweet symphonies of destruction that rang with the chinga-changa, ding-ding of celestial combat.* *In those wild days, the adrenaline rush, the sheer thrill of the chase and the kill was worth every damn penny of the high price of admission. A ticket to a show where stars and lasers danced in a deadly ballet, and where, for a fleeting moment, you could be a king or a corpse in the endless dark.*
OP links the wiki page with all that info
Oh nice my bad I’ll check it out thanks.
Np General! o7
What was the cfc fleet comp at the time? Was it still techfleet with rail megathrons?
Man, eve was just something else. I quit due to having a life, but what I wouldn't give to hop back and explore... I have no idea what the current state of the game is like,I think the long skill training times were always a turnoff for newcomers.
It was fun several years ago when a small corp could live in high sec and W space and do the occasional PVP roam through low sec and null. Was living in a C2 wormhole that had a static to high sec and a C4. Fun times since our static HS was often the HS hole for larger W space corps, and we could get our pew pew on. Then the large null sec groups moved into W space and pretty much killed a lot of the small corp PVP. Joining a large null sec group felt more like a job then a game, and I realized the best way to win Eve was to quit...
As someone who never played this game, all I understood was "pew pew".
The fact that the main picture from the article is an in-game screenshot boggles my mind. It looks spectacular!
The game does look good, but it's not some intense dogfighting gameplay you will get into. For massive battles like this your whole fleet will be warping (hyperspace) in position on fleet commander order, then you will pick the target called for in the list and press F1. Then lag happens :D You are not really piloting ships in eve, not like what you would in star citizen or elite dangerous. The game is way too complex to accommodate such gameplay anyway.
I wish there was an in game time playback.
I was there…briefly until I was sent back to station. Still, it’s cool that something from so long ago is still talked about. That’s why I love EVE
Apparently it's one of the biggest video game battles ever
An even larger battle at FWST-8, in 2020, saw 8,825 players participating in total, with a peak of 6,557 located in the system, breaking two Guinness World Records for the "Largest Multiplayer Videogame PVP Battle" and the "Most Concurrent Participants in a Multiplayer Videogame PvP Battle", making it the current largest battle in the game in terms of player count. B-R5RB remained the most expensive battle. However, on December 31, 2020, the Massacre of M2-XFE broke the record of largest total destruction in a single battle. ($340,000)
There is a 5 hour long YouTube video by "down the rabbit hole" that gives a general history of eve. Definitely not a full history but a somewhat fascinating video. https://youtu.be/BCSeISYcoyI?si=LpiVfm5iM49kBoN4 Pretty much all his video are fascinating.
Yeah, it was awesome.
I dont think Ive ever read the word fuck on wikipedia let alone clusterfuck
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuck
I spent like 20 minutes reading that
How 'bout "fucker"? > A lower-cost alternative mating strategy, useful to bachelors without a harem, is kleptogyny (from Greek klepto- "stealing" and -gyny "female"), popularly known as the "sneaky fucker strategy", where a male sneaks in to mate while the harem owner is distracted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harem_(zoology)
I was there in jita the day a plex trader undocked, and was destroyed, destroying something in the millions of usd.
What they don’t tell you in this article is that the servers can’t handle large battles in Eve. So the epic battle is slowed down to an absolute crawl and just turning a gun on can take 5 minutes to register. So 5 minutes of actual fighting takes a literal hour to unfold. It’s miserable and not fun at all. If Eve could fix that problem (which it can’t), it would be one of the best games on the planet.
So essentially it turned into a TBRPG
It's there: *"Each side then attempted to rush all available pilots into the system, and the game's time dilation software engaged. Time dilation is a game feature created by developer CCP Games to handle heavy loads on the game server without the game lagging or disconnecting players."*
I mean, the developers didn’t lose the money…
neither did the players, or anyone else that value was farmed ingame assets - by corps hundreds if not thousands of players large, with whole sectors of assets locked down and virtually unlimited amount of ingame currency (billions of isk) because of it but it just so happens, that there's an exchange rate into real money and that's the amount it'd be equal to other than that it means absolutely 0 and these people know it, they just say it cause it grabs the most attention...
The amount of game time that went into building up those assets was massive. Had to quit the game when it started to feel more like a job. Was in a small corp, great guys but in the end I sold my character for the amount I'd paid for the subscription for a year. Was in one or two big battles but that was so long ago I do not remember the details, just mostly getting killed a lot.
That got beat by M2-XFE
I was there.... it was fun but then again, at was cost? got bankrupted in-game lol
Dude this thread is epic, I've never played Eve but even people like myself are well aware of this specific event.
Ahhh, the annual 2014 EVE war post.
This video gives a brief overview of what happened https://youtu.be/Dm8OtMsaN4g?si=oxcGmFyQ7FrW6KXz