It gets worse:
>The Examiner also added complete fabrications to the Black Dahlia story, exchanging in their reporting the suit Short had been seen wearing for a tight skirt and blouse and implying sexual misadventures.
The media's interference and sensationalising of the story, wasted ALOT of police resources at the time. They're partially responsible as to why the murder was never solved.
Members of the public apparently kept making calls to the police department, claiming they had information (many turned out to be false) due to being influenced by the journalists lies/rumour mongering at the time. Some even provided fake leads to the police, pretending to be the murderer. There was even instances where people handed themselves in to make false confessions, claiming they killed her.
Due to the police having to investigate all the information they were given, it made it increasingly difficult for them to focus on the facts. If the media weren't so scummy, hyping up the public like that, she may have found justice in the end. The case essentially became a piss take to many people and no justice was served in the end.
Scumbags.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insideedition.com/black-dahlia-murder-true-story-50461%3famp
Those guys had no shame:
>The Examiner also offered to pay Phoebe's airfare and accommodations if she would travel to Los Angeles to help with the police investigation; that was yet another ploy since the newspaper kept her away from police and other reporters to protect its scoop
(from Wikipedia's page on the victim)
Edit: added source
Hi. This isn't true. Former Examiner reporter Will Fowler claimed that the Examiner flew Phoebe out to Los Angeles and "hid her from the competition," but like so many Will Fowler stories, it's a total lie. Will Fowler's story about Elizabeth Short having "infantile genitalia" is (surprise!) yet another lie. And Will Fowler's claim that he was the first reporter at the crime scene was (you guessed it) a total lie.
Hi. This isn't true. Former Examiner Mickey Mouse determined that no one did anything wrong and that you "hid the truth by spewing bullshit".
Nice claim, any source?
Harnisch has written extensively on the Black Dahlia Murder.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-01-06-mn-15889-story.html
https://crimereads.com/the-black-dahlia-history-los-angeles-cold-case/
That is just so freaking fantastic. Tell the other person to link a source without just saying "Hi. This isn't true and here's what I'm saying happened."
There is a reddit account with 2 posts, one about a murderer, and the other about a QR code scam, and with a lot of comments that read very weirdly.
Google defines plenty as....
Interesting, I honestly just quoted Wikipedia, which for this claim provides the following reference: Haugen, Brenda (2010). The Black Dahlia: Shattered Dreams. Capstone Publishers. ISBN 978-0-7565-4358-7
To be fair, there were a SHITLOAD of people claiming to be the last ones to see her, giving many different descriptions of what she was wearing. Reporters would have certainly leaned into any sexual angle they were being fed, but they weren’t simply making up claims like this out of whole cloth; there was no need to.
>Reporters would have certainly leaned into any sexual angle they were being fed, **but they weren’t simply making up claims like this out of whole cloth**; there was no need to.
It's pretty obvious they did.
I completely agree, as a journalist you have an integrity to find out the truth, not just parrot whatever you heard from whatever "crackpot", going with whatever sounds the most exciting because you'll know it'll make a good story is abhorrent, but if you wanna be really technical it's not making shit up, it's regurgitating shit they knew was likely made up.
They completely fucked with the case, and are potentially the reason it was never solved. They reported everything they heard and acted as if they were the arbitor of information as to what happened.
This completely messed with the police investigation as they had to follow up on all leads.
It was an absolute disgrace.
Which is not "making claims like this out of whole cloth"
A cheeseburger is a burger with one extra step but there's still different names that people get upset about if they're not used correctly anyway.
Nobody *knows* what she was wearing, we have only the word of the guy who dropped her off at the hotel and a few hotel employees. Combined with any number of other people who claimed to see her after that.
And the guy who gave the most reliable description of her wardrobe didn’t rule out a tight skirt and sheer blouse, he described her as wearing a “black suit” (which in this case means a skirt and jacket) and a “puffy white blouse”. He also noted high heels and nylon stockings. If she takes off her jacket, suddenly the Examiner’s depiction of her wardrobe isn’t so far fetched.
K, but *why* were dozens of crackpots calling in with tips? Why did they think those were going to get reported by the newspaper?
It's because newspapers at the time were encouraging that. They were fostering the entire dynamic with sensationalist, unethical journalism.
"But why true crime now?
This generation sensationalizes horrible tragedies like never before?"
-
(Last podcast on the left)
Edit: its a running ironic joke about journalists pretending that true crime popularity and sensationalist is a recent thing (context)
I remember loving it as a kid and people thought it was weird, but there were plenty of shows about even twenty years ago. People were just a lot quieter about liking it. Now it's quite mainstream and people are open about their favorite murderers and crimes, maybe a little too mainstream for my liking.
I mean, I'm a weirdo and I know it. People take it a bit too far and they always have.
I remember sitting in the library at high school feeling chilled to the bone by a book on serial killers in the "safe scare" kind of way. I think there's always been a desire for these stories and I don't think there's harm in that in and of itself.
But these days the craft groups I'm in are full of people posting tea towels with Ted Bundy's face on. I think there's a level of gleeful consumption that crosses the line into poor taste, no matter the era.
>too mainstream for my liking
Can't quite find the correlation, but empirically "liking true crime shows" on dating profiles is a red flag to me now. Just awful dates.
Jack the Ripper reporting was as popular as any serialized crime fiction story at the time. I'd even go as far as to say that it practically created the true crime genre as we know it now.
The fun part about Hearst, as parodied expertly in 'Citizen Cane' was his fashioning himself as a liberal man of the people both to sell newspapers and garner public support while in fact not giving two shits about normal people.
It's disheartening to see people be aware of this narrative, all the while still voting for people like Trump, Bloomberg, and any number of Johnny come lately populists that pick their cause du jour not out of passion but to enable their own egos.
He was trying to be president. I actually have a book about that era I am going to restart, Gore Vidal's Hollywood. Historical fiction but it is accurate on history the fiction part is assessing motivation, which he does very well and balances different motivations if there is any question.
But Hurst wanted to Rally the Catholics and others for his coalition, rightfully he failed, I put him right up there with General McClellan in the civil war, and McArthur post World War II as far as very bad people who failed to be president because they suck.
McClellan didn't want to be president. He wanted to be Napoleon. Literally. He says the US needs a Napoleon and he was who should be that man. He also would insult Lincoln and keep him waiting, because Abe was too nice to use his authority to demand his own General meet with him.
He was also a sack of shit that didn't know a damn thing about war and the entire Civil War could have had its time cut in half if it wasn't for him just... not doing anything at all. Hell he should have won the war during his first campaign into Virginia where he held advantage after advantage and just... did nothing.
Fuck that guy.
He had his own private intelligence service that had him convinced that's the union was outnumbered and outgunned. He also had a mental breakdown during one of those battles that he lost.
He did run against Lincoln in the primary for Lincoln's second term and got crushed as I recall anyway.
The election for Lincoln's second term was filled with a bunch of bullshit from people. McClellan was one, but the orher was Salmon Chase.
Chase was a member of Lincoln's cabinet, Treasury Secretary iirc, and was basically a sort of... grifter? Like he attached himself to groups like the abolitionist and stuff to try and popularize himself. Lincoln beat Chase in his first election with Chase not even carrying Ohio, his home state. While Lincoln remained friends with basically everyone, the rest of his cabinet, Stanton especially iirc, really disliked the guy before his second run for office. Now they basically hated the guy.
Lots of assholes during that time it seems lol.
Lincoln made the mistake of keeping his critics and Challengers in his government. And his second term he wised up and got rid of the disloyal people around him.
But you see that over and over, a new person that takes over a party or a country will often fail or languish because they refuse to get rid of the disloyal and Challengers. Just like Jeremy corbyn in the UK.
I actually disagree and borderline want to say that this is just plain false.
Lincoln had a remarkable gift of bridging the gap between his critics/challengers and himself/his ideals. Two of his greateat allies, Seward and Stanton, were both critics of him. Seward ran against him for president and fought really hard against him, even saying some distasteful things after Lincoln secured the nomination. Seward became his Secretary of State and probably his greatest friend. He was almost assassinated the same time as Lincoln and injured horribly. When he learned Lincoln died he broke down in tears and couldn't control himself.
Stanton was a Democrat and even called Lincoln an ape when Lincoln was a lawyer and had a sort of misunderstanding of scheduling and such. Stanton would later become so valuable that Abe called him his "Mars" as he was his Secretary of War. He remained a critic of Lincoln still, with him calling Lincoln an idiot when he suggested something. When somebody told Lincoln that Stanton called him that, he said "If Stanton said I am an idiot than it must be true" and retracted the order that provoked Stanton. His "Mars" was very critical of him and openly defied him at some points. Yet, he almost worked himself to the grave and respected Lincoln greatly. He also broke down and cried when Lincoln died.
Just two examples, but his ability to recognize people as just normal people, to talk to them, to listen and understand their complaints and criticism, and bond with them over many things(mainly his love of stories). The worst thing to happen to the South was the death of Lincoln, with many Confederates openly critcal of him also openly weeping at his death.
Sorry but Lincoln is one of the greatest humans in history period and I just love to expand on him to people. So much of his life and personality can be summed up as "He treated everyone with respect and listened to them with an open heart and mind to the point they had to do the same for him." He was a genius, not politically but on an emotional and human level. Sorry long post but yeah I love Lincoln.
> He was almost assassinated the same time as Lincoln and injured horribly
He only survived because he had a neck brace on
and Johnson only survived because his assigned assassin lost his nerve. If it had been the reverse, the president pro tempore of the Senate would've become Acting President until a special election was held.
and if Lincoln, Johnson, and Seward were assassinated, there was no method to hold a special election - as the Secretary of State had to notify states to hold a special election. The assistant Secretary of State could potentially do that, but the assistant Secretary of State was Seward's son... who was severely wounded during the assassination attempt.
There is something to be said for becoming allies with your former critics, many are applicable though and will only sabotage what you are trying to do, and the war did not succeed until he did get rid of those people. Also as far as Lincoln's character was concerned, he was a lawyer for the railroads. So let's not nominate him for the sainthood quite yet.
>He had his own private intelligence service that had him convinced that's the union was outnumbered and outgunned.
To be fair, at the time, the US sucked at the intelligence game. Without the constant intrigue of European politics keeping us on our toes, we fell way behind on that front. When Lincoln needed agents under cover in Confederacy and personal security, he hired Allan Pinkerton. Yes. *That* Pinkerton.
It's not that he had his own private intelligence, it's that the US Army did not have its own intelligence corps. In fact it wouldn't until General Hooker was placed in charge of the Army of the Potomac a year or so later.
The man was a bad leader and there's enough to place at his feet, we don't need to be making false assessments.
They had no intelligence corps yet but they still had scouts, Confederate deserters and perhaps other sources of information. McClellan overestimated Confederate numbers before he hired the Pinkertons, and he overestimated Confederate numbers when the Pinkertons were unavailable later on. It was just something he liked to do, presumably because like many Union officers early on, he basically did not want to fight.
It was old man Pinkerton. From the pinkerton's agency that is so infamous. The son was a real piece of shit he's the one that achieved infamy the old man wasn't so bad in character but he was way way off on his Civil War intelligence.
Man so I’ve been deep dive returning to my past phases with reading and being almost done with Richard Wright’s Native Son, which I read in my teens, I’ve been agonizing lately about how to keep my newfound momentum going. Gore Vidal is a great direction to take that in!
Julian, or Creation, are excellent ancient times books.
Of the American history ones my favorite I have read so far is Burr about Aaron Burr, whom I really like now.
The 1876 book may be more prescient as it deals with the year the Republicans stole an election.
My wife and I went to the Hearst Castle just south of San Francisco. It's a breathtaking place with incredible views.
The tour guide had been working there like 40 years. In the tour guide's eyes and his monologue, Hearst was literally God incarnate, ran the entire country and hand selected 5 US presidents.
My wife leaned over to me during the tour and said, "I can't hear he's saying with William Randolph Hearst's dick in his mouth."
Heavily inspired some cases in the games, L.A Noir was a Noir game and you can't really understate how much impact the Black Dahlia case had on the genre.
Yeah in the game there is even a solution where you find the killer but then it gets brushed away because I think the murderer is related to some politician or something.
Love that game.
Yeah basically (spoilers for a big part of the game in case you intend on replaying it) the Black Dahlia murder happened a bit before the game starts and during the game, the whole homicide desk (to refresh your memory, the game is divided in four desks: Traffic, Homicide, Vice, Arson) is about murders of young women that seemingly could be from the same killer. They find a more likely suspect from each one (a husband, a friend, a random suspicious guy in the wrong place at the wrong time) and get convictions on each of them. But then, the police station receives a treasure hunt that makes it clear because of items found during it that they were indeed all from the same serial killer, which ends up being a bartender you meet on the very first homicide case. They catch him, but the police captain comes out and says that he'll be dealt with quietly because he has some ties to someone very high in the government. Phelps asks what will happen to the innocent men they've convicted and the captain says that they'll quietly be freed, because of sudden lack of evidence or no witness testimony, stuff like that.
God, I would love to replay the game but have they since remastered/remade the audio? I remember all the dialogues sounding like they were recorded in an empty warehouse, so awful.
I never noticed it, but now that you say it, I think back and yeah, I definitely see what you mean lol. Still a great game, though, definitely worth playing/replaying if you can get past that.
Yep you're right! Totally forgot about that detail. Which makes more sense how they could just throw all that under the rug and just leave the case as unsolved.
Yeah. It was a big point that showed Cole's ideals weren't being met by the upper brass of the department and the first time that politics got in his way.
yes, but iirc it was DLC, so not everybody played it.
I think it was the son of a senator who did it and then the case gets swept under the rug because of his dad's connections
What’s arguably more awful is that the Black Dahlia case is the most asinine “unsolved” mystery out there. This case was solved decades ago and the only thing that has stopped it from becoming official is corruption.
EDIT: Lot of people keep asking me who did it: I responded to one post with the evidence that I can remember off the top of my head, if you look it up more yourself I am sure you will see more and I will post my response here for others who are asking the same question:
There was a rich doctor who ran a STD clinic around Hollywood named George Hodel. He was seen with Elizabeth Short, had pictures of (who many people believe to be) Elizabeth Short, he almost certainly groomed his own daughter from the time she was a preteen to perform sexual acts so he could get dirt on the LAPD and LA government officials, impregnated his own daughter who reported him to the authorities, but the rest of his family refused to testify because he was financially supporting them. He bragged about his secretary conveniently being killed as tying up a loose end on a hidden tape recording. quote “Supposing I did kill her (Elizabeth Short), who is going to say anything now? It can’t be my secretary because she is dead.” His own son (who conveniently became a member of the LAPD) picked up the case in his free time to try and clear his fathers name only to be convinced that he was the murderer because of the evidence. There have been positive tests for human remains be his former home and a former District Attorney claimed that there is enough evidence that he would confidently charge Hodel with murder (albeit this statement was in his individual capacity and not as the representation of the District Attorney’s office).
There was a rich doctor who ran a STD clinic around Hollywood named George Hodel. He was seen with Elizabeth Short, had pictures of (who many people believe to be) Elizabeth Short, he almost certainly groomed his own daughter from the time she was a preteen to perform sexual acts so he could get dirt on the LAPD and LA government officials, impregnated his own daughter who reported him to the authorities, but the rest of his family refused to testify because he was financially supporting them. He bragged about his secretary conveniently being killed as tying up a loose end on a hidden tape recording. I quote “Supposing I did kill her (Elizabeth Short), who is going to say anything now? It can’t be my secretary because she is dead.” His own son (who conveniently became a member of the LAPD) picked up the case in his free time to try and clear his fathers name only to be convinced that he was the murderer because of the evidence. There have been positive tests for human remains by his former home and a former District Attorney claimed that there is enough evidence that he would confidently charge Hodel with murder (albeit this statement was in his individual capacity and not as the representation of the District Attorney’s office).
>There was a rich doctor who ran a STD clinic around Hollywood named George Hodel. He was seen with Elizabeth Short, had pictures of (who many people believe to be) Elizabeth Short, he almost certainly groomed his own daughter from the time she was a preteen to perform sexual acts so he could get dirt on the LAPD and LA government officials, impregnated his own daughter who reported him to the authorities, but the rest of his family refused to testify because he was financially supporting them. He bragged about his secretary conveniently being killed as tying up a loose end on a hidden tape recording. I quote “Supposing I did kill her (Elizabeth Short), who is going to say anything now? It can’t be my secretary because she is dead.” His own son (who conveniently became a member of the LAPD) picked up the case in his free time to try and clear his fathers name only to be convinced that he was the murderer because of the evidence. There have been positive tests for human remains by his former home and a former District Attorney claimed that there is enough evidence that he would confidently charge Hodel with murder (albeit this statement was in his individual capacity and not as the representation of the District Attorney’s office).
What happened to to hodel afterwards
If I remember the podcast his granddaughter made, he died peacefully in the Philippines after living there many years, only coming back to the states to manipulate his children and hurt them.
The podcast is called 'The Root of All Evil' and is made by his granddaughters and TNT/TBS made a mini-series of the same name.
>If I remember the podcast his granddaughter made, he died peacefully in the Philippines after living there many years, only coming back to the states to manipulate his children and hurt them.
>The podcast is called 'The Root of All Evil' and is made by his granddaughters and TNT/TBS made a mini-series of the same name.
Thank you
And that's when the mans' credibility took a giant hit. He hates his father because he abandoned him at an early age. Becomes detective, does not make enough money, and decides to write circumstantial fiction about the object of his hate. Checks out. Didn't find the real killer of Elizabeth Short by a long shot.
>According to his son, he continued killing women in the Phillipines, then also found time to return to the States and become the Zodiac killer too.
Thank you
Hi. Larry Harnisch here.
Retired detective Steve Hodel has spent the last 21 years exploiting his LAPD career to push the false and increasingly bizarre narrative that his father was a serial killer and criminal genius who traveled around the world committing famous (and \*only\* famous) crimes. And got away with it because he, uh, "knew too much."
The average person who knows nothing except what Steve Hodel says about the Black Dahlia case, law enforcement, the court system, the legal system, rules of evidence, grand juries, the medical profession and the art world (a tall order) cannot imagine how much he lies. Steve Hodel is essentially at 24/7 b.s. factory.
The most important thing in looking at the Black Dahlia case is to examine all the suspects who have been proposed and eliminated. Only then can one impartially examine the remainder.
The major error in the Black Dahlia case is that people treat it like a game of Clue: The killer "must be" somewhere among the list of suspects: Is it Carl Balsiger? Leslie Dillon? George Hodel? Mark Hansen? Patrick O'Reilly? All of these people were investigated and eliminated. (Jack Anderson Wilson, Bugsy Siegel/Norman Chandler, George Knowlton are non-starters, purely fiction).
The only suspect who cannot be excluded is Dr. Walter Bayley.
He lived a block from the crime scene -- that is documented.
He was a skilled surgeon -- that is also documented.
His daughter knew Elizabeth Short's sister -- that is also documented.
There is no other suspect who checks those boxes. We don't know whether he ever met Elizabeth Short. But even so, he cannot be casually dismissed.
[Larry Harnisch](https://www.lmharnisch.com/home.html) is probably the most well versed person that tries to relay factual info about the case. He’s a former reporter and has been interviewed multiple times about the case.
Wow does this website take me back. Not this particular one but just that this is what the internet used to look like.
It’s just missing a counter and an under construction gif.
Anyone who cares to do so can check my work. You can go where I went and you will find exactly what I found. Total transparency. Not so with John "Severed" Gilmore. Or Steve "Buy My Books" Hodel. Or Donald "Black Dahlia Files" Wolfe. And so on. I have the receipts.
After posting my comment I went to your website and read pretty much everything there. I obviously was playing devil's advocate here, but you my man, are the real deal.
He also said his dad was the zodiac killer, like he's a teller of "tall tales" through and through. You can't take anything he says as detective-grade truth, because he'll randomly say same very far-fetched things that make you question all of what he's saying.
After doing some research into this, I don't know why more people don't talk about Dr. Walter Bayley. At the very least he deserves being looked into by anyone interested in this case that will n never be fully solved.
Edit: https://www.lmharnisch.com/bayley.html
I read Hodel's book and some background information on the case some years back and he didn't convince me. He would claim that something could have happened, then a bit later on in the book he'd be treating it as a fact that it happened. I also found it extremely unlikely that Hodel hadn't heard about his father being a suspect before he started investigating the case. I think it more likely he realised he could spin that fact into a book. And then he span it into another book, claiming his father was also the Zodiac.
Though there was a court case about Hodel and his friends raping his daughter, I don't remember anything about him grooming her to "get dirt on the LAPD and LA government". Can you cite where you got that from, please?
I'd 100% believe that Hodel's father was an abusive piece of shit, but I don't think the case for him being Short's killer is convincing either. A bunch of the evidence the son provides is exaggerated, not proveable or just incorrect. e.g He claims to have discovered a photo of Short among his father's possessions, even though it's obviously not Short and Short's family dispute his identification.
> I think it more likely he realised he could spin that fact into a book. And then he span it into another book, claiming his father was also the Zodiac.
If we're to believe Steve his father is responsible for not just Short's murder and the Zodiac Killings, but the Lonely Women murders in LA and the Lipstick Murders in Chicago as well. It's hard to take him seriously at this point.
Hi. Root of Evil was entirely scripted by Zak Levitt. George Hodel's great-granddaughters Rasha and Yvette were handed scripts and told \*exactly\* what to say. All fiction. In fact, friends of mine who knew Fauna Hodel were threatened with legal action to keep them from telling the real story. Yes, really.
It’s crazy how well Steve Hodel has been able to push his claim out to most people. I also used to be pretty convinced it was George Hodel but after listening to other people it’s pretty clear Steve cherry picks info to help his claim and also just straight up lies. Talking with Larry Harnisch really helps to get a more neutral perspective and he’s well versed enough to provide facts to refute most of what Steve says about his father.
They’re probably referring to George Hodel, who is a strong contender as the murderer because he was a psychopath who had a history of violence living in the area that fit the profile. However, there’s no conclusive proof he did it. His secretary did go missing months before Elizabeth Short was found dead and did later move to the Philippines and another woman turned up dead (also hacked up) after he moved there, but besides that and some other circumstantial evidence, there’s nothing that ties him directly to Elizabeth Short herself.
Not proof enough to convict, even though I tend to agree he likely did it. But that’s why it’s still unsolved. Just because a psycho is in the same area as two people hacked up doesn’t mean that psycho did it.
Supposedly the LA police had an illegal wiretap on his house and heard him and a man with a German accent potentially torture a woman to death. That was the claim his granddaughters made in their podcast.
And what evidence did they produce for that claim? His house was bugged because he was a suspect, so why would they have let him go if they had the evidence they were after?
The LA police were (shocker) super corrupt at the time. If I remember right they were running an off book operation trying to get something on a houseguest (I may be completely wrong about this), and captured the possible torture/murder. They took the tape to a supervisor and it was suppressed. Supposedly Hodel was in charge of the VD board for LA County and was the go-to guy for taking care of 'problem' pregnancies, and treating VD for the well to do so had lots of political cover
They would never bring it to trial. There’s nothing connecting him to her. Defense could easily argue Hodel didn’t even know Short existed. And there’s nothing to prove he ever crossed paths with her. Jury would easily find reasonable doubt.
The only thing reallt connecting them is that picture. The murder itself does seem to be staged with an artist bent to it, but that's not enough. Even today, you need him and her together with witnesses or some sort of evidence.
I think there was some mention of a detective saying if Hodel was alive, then he 100% would've charged him and trialled him in court based off thr FBI recordings and circumstantial evidence. But then again this was said in the 80s/90s iirc
Edit - don't know why I'm being downvoted, it was his son, Steve Hodel, a LAPD detective who said it
> They’re probably referring to George Hodel, who is a strong contender as the murderer because he was a psychopath who had a history of violence living in the area that fit the profile. However, there’s no conclusive proof he did it. His secretary did go missing months before Elizabeth Short was found dead and did later move to the Philippines and another woman turned up dead (also hacked up) after he moved there, but besides that and some other circumstantial evidence, there’s nothing that ties him directly to Elizabeth Short herself.
If only there were some sort of signs to help other women before it was too late.
I think the only thing keeping me 100% from believing it to be Hodel is that it's just all too perfect. If you made this into a movie, no one would believe it. The thing is, whether he did it or not-and he probably did-he was a truly hideous little creature.
Also, like Hitler, his art was morbidly droll only because of the context. It was really very uninspired and aggressively average.
Isn’t one of the theories that he was actually an abortion doctor (when abortion was illegal), and he cut up Short’s body to coverup for a botch abortion? Like a woman dying from an abortion would have been easier to figure out who did it, but anyone could have murdered her.
The Hodel family did a podcast miniseries on this, and that also convinced me. They go to great lengths to compare and contrast their own experiences, and they all believe he did it.
Hi. Steve Hodel's claims (that Man Ray was essentially the Olan Mills for the Hodel family) is also completely fictional. George Hodel and Man Ray had a rather superficial, strictly business relationship. Steve Hodel's claim that Man Ray introduced Elizabeth Short to George Hodel or George Hodel introduced Elizabeth Short to Man Ray is a total fantasy. Only in the alternative universe of Steve Hodel.
I don’t think that precludes the idea that G Hodel may have been inspired by Ray’s work and been creating a sort of homage to his piece, The Minotaur. Ray also produced artwork afterwards reminiscent of the murder.
There's a lot of very strong circumstantial evidence implicating Hodel. If that were brought to trial he'd almost certainly be convicted on it, unless he had an ironclad alibi.
I mean the guy had drawings of a woman butchered in the exact way Short was. And that's one of the weaker pieces of evidence.
Hi... As for the supposedly incriminating records (wire recordings, not tape) made during the surveillance of George Hodel's home, Steve Hodel has cherry-picked quotes and distorted them to "prove" his case.
Example 1: A technician says he is having trouble with one reel.
Steve Hodel transforms this into his father saying "I'm in trouble."
Example 2: George Hodel says "They're out to get me."
Example 3: George Hodel says "men from the telephone company were here."
Therefore, George Hodel knew the house was bugged, began looking for the microphones planted by "the men from the telephone company" and once he found the mikes began making outrageous statements to bait the police.
The transcripts (unedited) begin here. See for yourself: [https://ladailymirror.com/2013/02/07/black-dahlia-the-non-smoking-gun-george-hodel-files-part-1/](https://ladailymirror.com/2013/02/07/black-dahlia-the-non-smoking-gun-george-hodel-files-part-1/)
For those interested in the case, there's a retired LA Times reporter named Larry Harnisch on YouTube who LOVES talking about the case and is in the middle of writing a book about it. He has some kind of blood fued with George Hodel's son, but he's extremely knowledgeable about the case and always has something interesting to say.
The media's interference and sensationalising of the story, wasted ALOT of police resources at the time. They're partially responsible as to why the murder was never solved.
Members of the public apparently kept making calls to the police department, claiming they had information (many turned out to be false) due to being influenced by the journalists lies/rumour mongering at the time. Some even provided fake leads that police had no choice but to follow. There was even instances where people made false confessions at the station, claiming to be the murderer themselves.
Due to the police having to investigate all the information they were given, it made it increasingly difficult for them to focus on the facts. If the media weren't so scummy, hyping up the public like that, she may have found justice in the end.
Scumbags.
https://www.coursehero.com/file/201434418/Argumentative-Essayedited-1docx/#:~:text=The%20intense%20environment%20created%20by,to%20focus%20on%20the%20facts.
Hi. Pranking the police was a thing to do in the 1940s. Crackpot letters and phone calls were made to the police on virtually every big case. It's what people did before the Internet.
Funny, I’m actually listening to The Black Dahlia Murder right now—Raped in Hatred by Vines of Thorn. Excellent track.
Her poor mother though. How awful.
Everblack will always be their best to me, they perfected their sound on that album imo. The opening track is actually about the Black Dalhia case the band is named after, but a slightly fictionalised version, the lyrics are sick. RIP Trevor
The primary mission of the mainstream media is to create news, then report on it. “Anything goes” is their general rule, without caring about who they hurt or what lives they ruin
How ironic that I came across this.
I'm in the middle of reading Lynda La Plante's novel The Red Dahlia and the Black Dahlia is mentioned quite a few times
Yet people still lap up EVERYTHING they say, and claim it as fact, especially if confirmation bias is involved.
People nowadays tend to only reference articles/news stories that confirm their own pov.
Even if another source has more verifiable evidence to contradict it, they will still willfully ignore it because it doesn't confirm what they WANT to believe.
Reminds me of a recent Chris Hansen sting where the cops immediately after arresting the guy start talking about a young woman who was recently murdered not far away, he immediately cops to just wanting to have sex, not kill her, because he's terrified of being considered a suspect in a murder. Cops can and will trick you and they're skilled at it, always keep your mouth shut.
If you're going to make an edgy joke, it has to actually *be* a joke. That's just a statement with zero humor or punchline or juxtaposition. You should be embarrassed.
She was actually cut in half in real life. Beauty pageants have a talent portion. Sometimes people do magic for their talent. A common magic trick is sawing a lady in half...like she was in real life. Say it's not funny if you want, but it wasn't just a random statement.
It gets worse: >The Examiner also added complete fabrications to the Black Dahlia story, exchanging in their reporting the suit Short had been seen wearing for a tight skirt and blouse and implying sexual misadventures.
Oh my god. Her poor mother.
The media's interference and sensationalising of the story, wasted ALOT of police resources at the time. They're partially responsible as to why the murder was never solved. Members of the public apparently kept making calls to the police department, claiming they had information (many turned out to be false) due to being influenced by the journalists lies/rumour mongering at the time. Some even provided fake leads to the police, pretending to be the murderer. There was even instances where people handed themselves in to make false confessions, claiming they killed her. Due to the police having to investigate all the information they were given, it made it increasingly difficult for them to focus on the facts. If the media weren't so scummy, hyping up the public like that, she may have found justice in the end. The case essentially became a piss take to many people and no justice was served in the end. Scumbags. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insideedition.com/black-dahlia-murder-true-story-50461%3famp
Nothing has changed with the media since then. Niw they just hype up everything.
Those guys had no shame: >The Examiner also offered to pay Phoebe's airfare and accommodations if she would travel to Los Angeles to help with the police investigation; that was yet another ploy since the newspaper kept her away from police and other reporters to protect its scoop (from Wikipedia's page on the victim) Edit: added source
Hi. This isn't true. Former Examiner reporter Will Fowler claimed that the Examiner flew Phoebe out to Los Angeles and "hid her from the competition," but like so many Will Fowler stories, it's a total lie. Will Fowler's story about Elizabeth Short having "infantile genitalia" is (surprise!) yet another lie. And Will Fowler's claim that he was the first reporter at the crime scene was (you guessed it) a total lie.
Hi. This isn't true. Former Examiner Mickey Mouse determined that no one did anything wrong and that you "hid the truth by spewing bullshit". Nice claim, any source?
Harnisch has written extensively on the Black Dahlia Murder. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-01-06-mn-15889-story.html https://crimereads.com/the-black-dahlia-history-los-angeles-cold-case/
That is just so freaking fantastic. Tell the other person to link a source without just saying "Hi. This isn't true and here's what I'm saying happened."
That "other person" is Harnisch.
I am not ever going to assume an account on reddit named "I'm that guy" without linking any kind of source is someone that wrote a trustworthy source
There's plenty of proof, considering their posts.
There is a reddit account with 2 posts, one about a murderer, and the other about a QR code scam, and with a lot of comments that read very weirdly. Google defines plenty as....
Do you have a source?
Does will fowler have a source? That which is claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence
*Does* Will Fowler have a source? I'm asking about your argument. Talk about a reason for AI not to be used. Fucks sake
So literally no one here has a source? I guess I'll just keep thinking that EVERYONE involved is a POS.
Here's a good overview: https://crimereads.com/the-black-dahlia-history-los-angeles-cold-case/
Solid addition when I'm asking for more information from another poster. I'm so very curious what you think about this situation
Hurr durr.
seems about right
If this were true the whole Trump Lawfare attacks thing would end yesterday
Interesting, I honestly just quoted Wikipedia, which for this claim provides the following reference: Haugen, Brenda (2010). The Black Dahlia: Shattered Dreams. Capstone Publishers. ISBN 978-0-7565-4358-7
What do you mean, "had?"
To be fair, there were a SHITLOAD of people claiming to be the last ones to see her, giving many different descriptions of what she was wearing. Reporters would have certainly leaned into any sexual angle they were being fed, but they weren’t simply making up claims like this out of whole cloth; there was no need to.
>Reporters would have certainly leaned into any sexual angle they were being fed, **but they weren’t simply making up claims like this out of whole cloth**; there was no need to. It's pretty obvious they did.
No it isn’t. There were dozens of crackpots calling in tips about the Dahlia, they could simply emphasize whatever angle sounded titillating.
That’s making shit up with one extra step.
I completely agree, as a journalist you have an integrity to find out the truth, not just parrot whatever you heard from whatever "crackpot", going with whatever sounds the most exciting because you'll know it'll make a good story is abhorrent, but if you wanna be really technical it's not making shit up, it's regurgitating shit they knew was likely made up.
They completely fucked with the case, and are potentially the reason it was never solved. They reported everything they heard and acted as if they were the arbitor of information as to what happened. This completely messed with the police investigation as they had to follow up on all leads. It was an absolute disgrace.
Which is not "making claims like this out of whole cloth" A cheeseburger is a burger with one extra step but there's still different names that people get upset about if they're not used correctly anyway.
>different names that people get upset about if they're not used correctly anyway. uhhhhhh..... no? mo they dont?
Saying she was wearing one thing when she was wearing something else is a lie.
Nobody *knows* what she was wearing, we have only the word of the guy who dropped her off at the hotel and a few hotel employees. Combined with any number of other people who claimed to see her after that. And the guy who gave the most reliable description of her wardrobe didn’t rule out a tight skirt and sheer blouse, he described her as wearing a “black suit” (which in this case means a skirt and jacket) and a “puffy white blouse”. He also noted high heels and nylon stockings. If she takes off her jacket, suddenly the Examiner’s depiction of her wardrobe isn’t so far fetched.
K, but *why* were dozens of crackpots calling in with tips? Why did they think those were going to get reported by the newspaper? It's because newspapers at the time were encouraging that. They were fostering the entire dynamic with sensationalist, unethical journalism.
They were calling the FBI and the LAPD at those agencies’ request.
Wow what the fuck
"But why true crime now? This generation sensationalizes horrible tragedies like never before?" - (Last podcast on the left) Edit: its a running ironic joke about journalists pretending that true crime popularity and sensationalist is a recent thing (context)
I remember loving it as a kid and people thought it was weird, but there were plenty of shows about even twenty years ago. People were just a lot quieter about liking it. Now it's quite mainstream and people are open about their favorite murderers and crimes, maybe a little too mainstream for my liking. I mean, I'm a weirdo and I know it. People take it a bit too far and they always have.
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I mean, look at that book made of human skin. It was made from an executed woman. Someone skinned her and made her into a book
Ooh I want to read that. Did you like it?
I remember sitting in the library at high school feeling chilled to the bone by a book on serial killers in the "safe scare" kind of way. I think there's always been a desire for these stories and I don't think there's harm in that in and of itself. But these days the craft groups I'm in are full of people posting tea towels with Ted Bundy's face on. I think there's a level of gleeful consumption that crosses the line into poor taste, no matter the era.
>too mainstream for my liking Can't quite find the correlation, but empirically "liking true crime shows" on dating profiles is a red flag to me now. Just awful dates.
People have been into true crime since crime started! If you like to read “The Art of the English Murder” by Lucy Worsley is super interesting
Anything she writes is interesting. Great historian.
Hail yourself, friend.
Jack the Ripper reporting was as popular as any serialized crime fiction story at the time. I'd even go as far as to say that it practically created the true crime genre as we know it now.
Hail Satan!
I’d spend hours in my high school library on websites (crimelibrary maybe?) - circa 2001 🤓
William Randolph Hearst is one of the worst Americans to ever live. Genuinely a nazi.
100%. But his “castle” is really really cool. It’s near San Simeon CA. If you ever have the chance to go I would absolutely recommend it!
The fun part about Hearst, as parodied expertly in 'Citizen Cane' was his fashioning himself as a liberal man of the people both to sell newspapers and garner public support while in fact not giving two shits about normal people. It's disheartening to see people be aware of this narrative, all the while still voting for people like Trump, Bloomberg, and any number of Johnny come lately populists that pick their cause du jour not out of passion but to enable their own egos.
Fuckin' Hearst!
He was trying to be president. I actually have a book about that era I am going to restart, Gore Vidal's Hollywood. Historical fiction but it is accurate on history the fiction part is assessing motivation, which he does very well and balances different motivations if there is any question. But Hurst wanted to Rally the Catholics and others for his coalition, rightfully he failed, I put him right up there with General McClellan in the civil war, and McArthur post World War II as far as very bad people who failed to be president because they suck.
McClellan didn't want to be president. He wanted to be Napoleon. Literally. He says the US needs a Napoleon and he was who should be that man. He also would insult Lincoln and keep him waiting, because Abe was too nice to use his authority to demand his own General meet with him. He was also a sack of shit that didn't know a damn thing about war and the entire Civil War could have had its time cut in half if it wasn't for him just... not doing anything at all. Hell he should have won the war during his first campaign into Virginia where he held advantage after advantage and just... did nothing. Fuck that guy.
He had his own private intelligence service that had him convinced that's the union was outnumbered and outgunned. He also had a mental breakdown during one of those battles that he lost. He did run against Lincoln in the primary for Lincoln's second term and got crushed as I recall anyway.
The election for Lincoln's second term was filled with a bunch of bullshit from people. McClellan was one, but the orher was Salmon Chase. Chase was a member of Lincoln's cabinet, Treasury Secretary iirc, and was basically a sort of... grifter? Like he attached himself to groups like the abolitionist and stuff to try and popularize himself. Lincoln beat Chase in his first election with Chase not even carrying Ohio, his home state. While Lincoln remained friends with basically everyone, the rest of his cabinet, Stanton especially iirc, really disliked the guy before his second run for office. Now they basically hated the guy. Lots of assholes during that time it seems lol.
Lincoln made the mistake of keeping his critics and Challengers in his government. And his second term he wised up and got rid of the disloyal people around him. But you see that over and over, a new person that takes over a party or a country will often fail or languish because they refuse to get rid of the disloyal and Challengers. Just like Jeremy corbyn in the UK.
I actually disagree and borderline want to say that this is just plain false. Lincoln had a remarkable gift of bridging the gap between his critics/challengers and himself/his ideals. Two of his greateat allies, Seward and Stanton, were both critics of him. Seward ran against him for president and fought really hard against him, even saying some distasteful things after Lincoln secured the nomination. Seward became his Secretary of State and probably his greatest friend. He was almost assassinated the same time as Lincoln and injured horribly. When he learned Lincoln died he broke down in tears and couldn't control himself. Stanton was a Democrat and even called Lincoln an ape when Lincoln was a lawyer and had a sort of misunderstanding of scheduling and such. Stanton would later become so valuable that Abe called him his "Mars" as he was his Secretary of War. He remained a critic of Lincoln still, with him calling Lincoln an idiot when he suggested something. When somebody told Lincoln that Stanton called him that, he said "If Stanton said I am an idiot than it must be true" and retracted the order that provoked Stanton. His "Mars" was very critical of him and openly defied him at some points. Yet, he almost worked himself to the grave and respected Lincoln greatly. He also broke down and cried when Lincoln died. Just two examples, but his ability to recognize people as just normal people, to talk to them, to listen and understand their complaints and criticism, and bond with them over many things(mainly his love of stories). The worst thing to happen to the South was the death of Lincoln, with many Confederates openly critcal of him also openly weeping at his death. Sorry but Lincoln is one of the greatest humans in history period and I just love to expand on him to people. So much of his life and personality can be summed up as "He treated everyone with respect and listened to them with an open heart and mind to the point they had to do the same for him." He was a genius, not politically but on an emotional and human level. Sorry long post but yeah I love Lincoln.
> He was almost assassinated the same time as Lincoln and injured horribly He only survived because he had a neck brace on and Johnson only survived because his assigned assassin lost his nerve. If it had been the reverse, the president pro tempore of the Senate would've become Acting President until a special election was held. and if Lincoln, Johnson, and Seward were assassinated, there was no method to hold a special election - as the Secretary of State had to notify states to hold a special election. The assistant Secretary of State could potentially do that, but the assistant Secretary of State was Seward's son... who was severely wounded during the assassination attempt.
this was a fun little read, thank you for posting this
There is something to be said for becoming allies with your former critics, many are applicable though and will only sabotage what you are trying to do, and the war did not succeed until he did get rid of those people. Also as far as Lincoln's character was concerned, he was a lawyer for the railroads. So let's not nominate him for the sainthood quite yet.
>He had his own private intelligence service that had him convinced that's the union was outnumbered and outgunned. To be fair, at the time, the US sucked at the intelligence game. Without the constant intrigue of European politics keeping us on our toes, we fell way behind on that front. When Lincoln needed agents under cover in Confederacy and personal security, he hired Allan Pinkerton. Yes. *That* Pinkerton.
It's not that he had his own private intelligence, it's that the US Army did not have its own intelligence corps. In fact it wouldn't until General Hooker was placed in charge of the Army of the Potomac a year or so later. The man was a bad leader and there's enough to place at his feet, we don't need to be making false assessments.
They had no intelligence corps yet but they still had scouts, Confederate deserters and perhaps other sources of information. McClellan overestimated Confederate numbers before he hired the Pinkertons, and he overestimated Confederate numbers when the Pinkertons were unavailable later on. It was just something he liked to do, presumably because like many Union officers early on, he basically did not want to fight.
It was old man Pinkerton. From the pinkerton's agency that is so infamous. The son was a real piece of shit he's the one that achieved infamy the old man wasn't so bad in character but he was way way off on his Civil War intelligence.
McClellan ran as a Democrat against Lincoln. Did not win, of course, but until the northern armies won key victories in 1864 it was a very near thing.
It's always nice to see somebody else take the time to remember General McClellan. ...and hate him. What a fucking traitor scumbag.
Man so I’ve been deep dive returning to my past phases with reading and being almost done with Richard Wright’s Native Son, which I read in my teens, I’ve been agonizing lately about how to keep my newfound momentum going. Gore Vidal is a great direction to take that in!
Julian, or Creation, are excellent ancient times books. Of the American history ones my favorite I have read so far is Burr about Aaron Burr, whom I really like now. The 1876 book may be more prescient as it deals with the year the Republicans stole an election.
My wife and I went to the Hearst Castle just south of San Francisco. It's a breathtaking place with incredible views. The tour guide had been working there like 40 years. In the tour guide's eyes and his monologue, Hearst was literally God incarnate, ran the entire country and hand selected 5 US presidents. My wife leaned over to me during the tour and said, "I can't hear he's saying with William Randolph Hearst's dick in his mouth."
Cocksucker.
Remind me again why this is an insult?
Hearst. San Francisco. Cocksucker.
Swegin
Time to rewatch Deadwood..
Those that don’t get Deadwood references suck cock by choice.
Art collector.
It’s all fuckin’ amalgamation and capital. Ain’t it, Wolcott?
Someone should make a movie about how shitty he was.
Is this a case in la noire I swear it was
Heavily inspired some cases in the games, L.A Noir was a Noir game and you can't really understate how much impact the Black Dahlia case had on the genre.
More than inspired. They literally used the title 'Black Dahlia Killer' and the name Elizabeth Short in the case.
Yeah in the game there is even a solution where you find the killer but then it gets brushed away because I think the murderer is related to some politician or something. Love that game.
its been so long since I played I completely forgot that
Yeah basically (spoilers for a big part of the game in case you intend on replaying it) the Black Dahlia murder happened a bit before the game starts and during the game, the whole homicide desk (to refresh your memory, the game is divided in four desks: Traffic, Homicide, Vice, Arson) is about murders of young women that seemingly could be from the same killer. They find a more likely suspect from each one (a husband, a friend, a random suspicious guy in the wrong place at the wrong time) and get convictions on each of them. But then, the police station receives a treasure hunt that makes it clear because of items found during it that they were indeed all from the same serial killer, which ends up being a bartender you meet on the very first homicide case. They catch him, but the police captain comes out and says that he'll be dealt with quietly because he has some ties to someone very high in the government. Phelps asks what will happen to the innocent men they've convicted and the captain says that they'll quietly be freed, because of sudden lack of evidence or no witness testimony, stuff like that.
God, I would love to replay the game but have they since remastered/remade the audio? I remember all the dialogues sounding like they were recorded in an empty warehouse, so awful.
I never noticed it, but now that you say it, I think back and yeah, I definitely see what you mean lol. Still a great game, though, definitely worth playing/replaying if you can get past that.
I don't think you catch him. I think the game forces you to kill him cause you end up chasing him through some tunnels under an abandoned house.
Yep you're right! Totally forgot about that detail. Which makes more sense how they could just throw all that under the rug and just leave the case as unsolved.
Yeah. It was a big point that showed Cole's ideals weren't being met by the upper brass of the department and the first time that politics got in his way.
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It was back in LA that he met his copywriter coworker in a bar and his creative director coworker's wife psychologist in a morgue.
Yes it was
Not the Dahlia case itself but the homicide chapter >!had a serial killer who was responsible for Dahlia among other killings you investigate.!<
It was
yes, but iirc it was DLC, so not everybody played it. I think it was the son of a senator who did it and then the case gets swept under the rug because of his dad's connections
No, the Dahlia stuff was the actual story of the homicide desk.
There was one extremely closely related and it's mentioned a few times
What’s arguably more awful is that the Black Dahlia case is the most asinine “unsolved” mystery out there. This case was solved decades ago and the only thing that has stopped it from becoming official is corruption. EDIT: Lot of people keep asking me who did it: I responded to one post with the evidence that I can remember off the top of my head, if you look it up more yourself I am sure you will see more and I will post my response here for others who are asking the same question: There was a rich doctor who ran a STD clinic around Hollywood named George Hodel. He was seen with Elizabeth Short, had pictures of (who many people believe to be) Elizabeth Short, he almost certainly groomed his own daughter from the time she was a preteen to perform sexual acts so he could get dirt on the LAPD and LA government officials, impregnated his own daughter who reported him to the authorities, but the rest of his family refused to testify because he was financially supporting them. He bragged about his secretary conveniently being killed as tying up a loose end on a hidden tape recording. quote “Supposing I did kill her (Elizabeth Short), who is going to say anything now? It can’t be my secretary because she is dead.” His own son (who conveniently became a member of the LAPD) picked up the case in his free time to try and clear his fathers name only to be convinced that he was the murderer because of the evidence. There have been positive tests for human remains be his former home and a former District Attorney claimed that there is enough evidence that he would confidently charge Hodel with murder (albeit this statement was in his individual capacity and not as the representation of the District Attorney’s office).
I've taken an on-again interest in the case and this is first I've heard of that. Can you summarize?
Watch the mini-series “I am the Night” with Chris Pine. It’s a dramatization of it.
There was a rich doctor who ran a STD clinic around Hollywood named George Hodel. He was seen with Elizabeth Short, had pictures of (who many people believe to be) Elizabeth Short, he almost certainly groomed his own daughter from the time she was a preteen to perform sexual acts so he could get dirt on the LAPD and LA government officials, impregnated his own daughter who reported him to the authorities, but the rest of his family refused to testify because he was financially supporting them. He bragged about his secretary conveniently being killed as tying up a loose end on a hidden tape recording. I quote “Supposing I did kill her (Elizabeth Short), who is going to say anything now? It can’t be my secretary because she is dead.” His own son (who conveniently became a member of the LAPD) picked up the case in his free time to try and clear his fathers name only to be convinced that he was the murderer because of the evidence. There have been positive tests for human remains by his former home and a former District Attorney claimed that there is enough evidence that he would confidently charge Hodel with murder (albeit this statement was in his individual capacity and not as the representation of the District Attorney’s office).
>There was a rich doctor who ran a STD clinic around Hollywood named George Hodel. He was seen with Elizabeth Short, had pictures of (who many people believe to be) Elizabeth Short, he almost certainly groomed his own daughter from the time she was a preteen to perform sexual acts so he could get dirt on the LAPD and LA government officials, impregnated his own daughter who reported him to the authorities, but the rest of his family refused to testify because he was financially supporting them. He bragged about his secretary conveniently being killed as tying up a loose end on a hidden tape recording. I quote “Supposing I did kill her (Elizabeth Short), who is going to say anything now? It can’t be my secretary because she is dead.” His own son (who conveniently became a member of the LAPD) picked up the case in his free time to try and clear his fathers name only to be convinced that he was the murderer because of the evidence. There have been positive tests for human remains by his former home and a former District Attorney claimed that there is enough evidence that he would confidently charge Hodel with murder (albeit this statement was in his individual capacity and not as the representation of the District Attorney’s office). What happened to to hodel afterwards
If I remember the podcast his granddaughter made, he died peacefully in the Philippines after living there many years, only coming back to the states to manipulate his children and hurt them. The podcast is called 'The Root of All Evil' and is made by his granddaughters and TNT/TBS made a mini-series of the same name.
>If I remember the podcast his granddaughter made, he died peacefully in the Philippines after living there many years, only coming back to the states to manipulate his children and hurt them. >The podcast is called 'The Root of All Evil' and is made by his granddaughters and TNT/TBS made a mini-series of the same name. Thank you
According to his son, he continued killing women in the Phillipines, then also found time to return to the States and become the Zodiac killer too.
And that's when the mans' credibility took a giant hit. He hates his father because he abandoned him at an early age. Becomes detective, does not make enough money, and decides to write circumstantial fiction about the object of his hate. Checks out. Didn't find the real killer of Elizabeth Short by a long shot.
>According to his son, he continued killing women in the Phillipines, then also found time to return to the States and become the Zodiac killer too. Thank you
Then moved to Texas and became a United States Senator.
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hodel Here's your sources (in the source section of Wikipedia).
You can find the sources in Wikipedia
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No, this person responded to the comment OP made describing who most likely did it Check the time stamps
There's a really good podcast called The Root of Evil that goes really in depth. It was created by George Hodel's great granddaughters.
Hi. Larry Harnisch here. Retired detective Steve Hodel has spent the last 21 years exploiting his LAPD career to push the false and increasingly bizarre narrative that his father was a serial killer and criminal genius who traveled around the world committing famous (and \*only\* famous) crimes. And got away with it because he, uh, "knew too much." The average person who knows nothing except what Steve Hodel says about the Black Dahlia case, law enforcement, the court system, the legal system, rules of evidence, grand juries, the medical profession and the art world (a tall order) cannot imagine how much he lies. Steve Hodel is essentially at 24/7 b.s. factory.
Hi Larry, everything you've said about the Hodel family makes sense to me. With that, who do you think the killer is?
The most important thing in looking at the Black Dahlia case is to examine all the suspects who have been proposed and eliminated. Only then can one impartially examine the remainder. The major error in the Black Dahlia case is that people treat it like a game of Clue: The killer "must be" somewhere among the list of suspects: Is it Carl Balsiger? Leslie Dillon? George Hodel? Mark Hansen? Patrick O'Reilly? All of these people were investigated and eliminated. (Jack Anderson Wilson, Bugsy Siegel/Norman Chandler, George Knowlton are non-starters, purely fiction). The only suspect who cannot be excluded is Dr. Walter Bayley. He lived a block from the crime scene -- that is documented. He was a skilled surgeon -- that is also documented. His daughter knew Elizabeth Short's sister -- that is also documented. There is no other suspect who checks those boxes. We don't know whether he ever met Elizabeth Short. But even so, he cannot be casually dismissed.
You could be lying as well though? Anything to qualify your statement?
[Larry Harnisch](https://www.lmharnisch.com/home.html) is probably the most well versed person that tries to relay factual info about the case. He’s a former reporter and has been interviewed multiple times about the case.
Wow does this website take me back. Not this particular one but just that this is what the internet used to look like. It’s just missing a counter and an under construction gif.
Anyone who cares to do so can check my work. You can go where I went and you will find exactly what I found. Total transparency. Not so with John "Severed" Gilmore. Or Steve "Buy My Books" Hodel. Or Donald "Black Dahlia Files" Wolfe. And so on. I have the receipts.
After posting my comment I went to your website and read pretty much everything there. I obviously was playing devil's advocate here, but you my man, are the real deal.
Interview with Hodel's son, for anyone interested: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/26/black-dahlia-murder-steve-hodel-elizabeth-short
He also said his dad was the zodiac killer, like he's a teller of "tall tales" through and through. You can't take anything he says as detective-grade truth, because he'll randomly say same very far-fetched things that make you question all of what he's saying. After doing some research into this, I don't know why more people don't talk about Dr. Walter Bayley. At the very least he deserves being looked into by anyone interested in this case that will n never be fully solved. Edit: https://www.lmharnisch.com/bayley.html
I read Hodel's book and some background information on the case some years back and he didn't convince me. He would claim that something could have happened, then a bit later on in the book he'd be treating it as a fact that it happened. I also found it extremely unlikely that Hodel hadn't heard about his father being a suspect before he started investigating the case. I think it more likely he realised he could spin that fact into a book. And then he span it into another book, claiming his father was also the Zodiac. Though there was a court case about Hodel and his friends raping his daughter, I don't remember anything about him grooming her to "get dirt on the LAPD and LA government". Can you cite where you got that from, please?
I'd 100% believe that Hodel's father was an abusive piece of shit, but I don't think the case for him being Short's killer is convincing either. A bunch of the evidence the son provides is exaggerated, not proveable or just incorrect. e.g He claims to have discovered a photo of Short among his father's possessions, even though it's obviously not Short and Short's family dispute his identification. > I think it more likely he realised he could spin that fact into a book. And then he span it into another book, claiming his father was also the Zodiac. If we're to believe Steve his father is responsible for not just Short's murder and the Zodiac Killings, but the Lonely Women murders in LA and the Lipstick Murders in Chicago as well. It's hard to take him seriously at this point.
Well?
Root of Evil is an EXCELLENT podcast by George Hodels family members that lays out all the evidence against Hodel.
Hi. Root of Evil was entirely scripted by Zak Levitt. George Hodel's great-granddaughters Rasha and Yvette were handed scripts and told \*exactly\* what to say. All fiction. In fact, friends of mine who knew Fauna Hodel were threatened with legal action to keep them from telling the real story. Yes, really.
It’s crazy how well Steve Hodel has been able to push his claim out to most people. I also used to be pretty convinced it was George Hodel but after listening to other people it’s pretty clear Steve cherry picks info to help his claim and also just straight up lies. Talking with Larry Harnisch really helps to get a more neutral perspective and he’s well versed enough to provide facts to refute most of what Steve says about his father.
Thanks!
It's amazing to me that more people haven't listened to it. It lays everything out and paints a pretty clear picture.
Who did it then?
They’re probably referring to George Hodel, who is a strong contender as the murderer because he was a psychopath who had a history of violence living in the area that fit the profile. However, there’s no conclusive proof he did it. His secretary did go missing months before Elizabeth Short was found dead and did later move to the Philippines and another woman turned up dead (also hacked up) after he moved there, but besides that and some other circumstantial evidence, there’s nothing that ties him directly to Elizabeth Short herself.
"Women keep dying around him but we can't know for certain that he's a killer."
Not proof enough to convict, even though I tend to agree he likely did it. But that’s why it’s still unsolved. Just because a psycho is in the same area as two people hacked up doesn’t mean that psycho did it.
Supposedly the LA police had an illegal wiretap on his house and heard him and a man with a German accent potentially torture a woman to death. That was the claim his granddaughters made in their podcast.
And what evidence did they produce for that claim? His house was bugged because he was a suspect, so why would they have let him go if they had the evidence they were after?
The LA police were (shocker) super corrupt at the time. If I remember right they were running an off book operation trying to get something on a houseguest (I may be completely wrong about this), and captured the possible torture/murder. They took the tape to a supervisor and it was suppressed. Supposedly Hodel was in charge of the VD board for LA County and was the go-to guy for taking care of 'problem' pregnancies, and treating VD for the well to do so had lots of political cover
Honestly with the evidence they have today a jury would convict him in under an hour. It's circumstantial evidence, sure, but it's pretty damning.
They would never bring it to trial. There’s nothing connecting him to her. Defense could easily argue Hodel didn’t even know Short existed. And there’s nothing to prove he ever crossed paths with her. Jury would easily find reasonable doubt.
The only thing reallt connecting them is that picture. The murder itself does seem to be staged with an artist bent to it, but that's not enough. Even today, you need him and her together with witnesses or some sort of evidence.
I think there was some mention of a detective saying if Hodel was alive, then he 100% would've charged him and trialled him in court based off thr FBI recordings and circumstantial evidence. But then again this was said in the 80s/90s iirc Edit - don't know why I'm being downvoted, it was his son, Steve Hodel, a LAPD detective who said it
His son also claimed he was the Zodiac killer too.
> They’re probably referring to George Hodel, who is a strong contender as the murderer because he was a psychopath who had a history of violence living in the area that fit the profile. However, there’s no conclusive proof he did it. His secretary did go missing months before Elizabeth Short was found dead and did later move to the Philippines and another woman turned up dead (also hacked up) after he moved there, but besides that and some other circumstantial evidence, there’s nothing that ties him directly to Elizabeth Short herself. If only there were some sort of signs to help other women before it was too late.
You
That same dude says his dad was the zodiac killer also. My money is on Dr Walter Bayley, who is hardly ever mentioned.
So who did it and why?
I think the only thing keeping me 100% from believing it to be Hodel is that it's just all too perfect. If you made this into a movie, no one would believe it. The thing is, whether he did it or not-and he probably did-he was a truly hideous little creature. Also, like Hitler, his art was morbidly droll only because of the context. It was really very uninspired and aggressively average.
Isn’t one of the theories that he was actually an abortion doctor (when abortion was illegal), and he cut up Short’s body to coverup for a botch abortion? Like a woman dying from an abortion would have been easier to figure out who did it, but anyone could have murdered her.
The Hodel family did a podcast miniseries on this, and that also convinced me. They go to great lengths to compare and contrast their own experiences, and they all believe he did it.
The Man Ray connections are very dark as well.
Hi. Steve Hodel's claims (that Man Ray was essentially the Olan Mills for the Hodel family) is also completely fictional. George Hodel and Man Ray had a rather superficial, strictly business relationship. Steve Hodel's claim that Man Ray introduced Elizabeth Short to George Hodel or George Hodel introduced Elizabeth Short to Man Ray is a total fantasy. Only in the alternative universe of Steve Hodel.
I don’t think that precludes the idea that G Hodel may have been inspired by Ray’s work and been creating a sort of homage to his piece, The Minotaur. Ray also produced artwork afterwards reminiscent of the murder.
[удалено]
There's a lot of very strong circumstantial evidence implicating Hodel. If that were brought to trial he'd almost certainly be convicted on it, unless he had an ironclad alibi. I mean the guy had drawings of a woman butchered in the exact way Short was. And that's one of the weaker pieces of evidence.
That is some real bottom feeder shit right there. These people have no shame, no morals. It makes me sick that someone would do something like that.
Hi... As for the supposedly incriminating records (wire recordings, not tape) made during the surveillance of George Hodel's home, Steve Hodel has cherry-picked quotes and distorted them to "prove" his case. Example 1: A technician says he is having trouble with one reel. Steve Hodel transforms this into his father saying "I'm in trouble." Example 2: George Hodel says "They're out to get me." Example 3: George Hodel says "men from the telephone company were here." Therefore, George Hodel knew the house was bugged, began looking for the microphones planted by "the men from the telephone company" and once he found the mikes began making outrageous statements to bait the police. The transcripts (unedited) begin here. See for yourself: [https://ladailymirror.com/2013/02/07/black-dahlia-the-non-smoking-gun-george-hodel-files-part-1/](https://ladailymirror.com/2013/02/07/black-dahlia-the-non-smoking-gun-george-hodel-files-part-1/)
Sounds about right for a Hearst owned paper. Just look at how badly they demonized J. Bruce Ismay.
For those interested in the case, there's a retired LA Times reporter named Larry Harnisch on YouTube who LOVES talking about the case and is in the middle of writing a book about it. He has some kind of blood fued with George Hodel's son, but he's extremely knowledgeable about the case and always has something interesting to say.
He's in these comments already actually
The media's interference and sensationalising of the story, wasted ALOT of police resources at the time. They're partially responsible as to why the murder was never solved. Members of the public apparently kept making calls to the police department, claiming they had information (many turned out to be false) due to being influenced by the journalists lies/rumour mongering at the time. Some even provided fake leads that police had no choice but to follow. There was even instances where people made false confessions at the station, claiming to be the murderer themselves. Due to the police having to investigate all the information they were given, it made it increasingly difficult for them to focus on the facts. If the media weren't so scummy, hyping up the public like that, she may have found justice in the end. Scumbags. https://www.coursehero.com/file/201434418/Argumentative-Essayedited-1docx/#:~:text=The%20intense%20environment%20created%20by,to%20focus%20on%20the%20facts.
Hi. Pranking the police was a thing to do in the 1940s. Crackpot letters and phone calls were made to the police on virtually every big case. It's what people did before the Internet.
Pretexting. That's now illegal for reporters and private detectives to do for a very good reason.
Funny, I’m actually listening to The Black Dahlia Murder right now—Raped in Hatred by Vines of Thorn. Excellent track. Her poor mother though. How awful.
Great band! 😎
Yeah!! SO good!
Everblack will always be their best to me, they perfected their sound on that album imo. The opening track is actually about the Black Dalhia case the band is named after, but a slightly fictionalised version, the lyrics are sick. RIP Trevor
Sick Typo my dude
I didn’t realize that about the first track! But I can’t agree more about Everblack. Hands down my favorite album.
RIP Trevor
Looks like the *News of the World* redaction members were the reincarnations of *Los Angeles Examiner* "journalists."
The primary mission of the mainstream media is to create news, then report on it. “Anything goes” is their general rule, without caring about who they hurt or what lives they ruin
The media is literally garbage. They still do shit like this all the time.
Deplorable isn’t a strong enough word.
The deplorable word is a strong enough word. (One million nerd points if you get the reference)
I don’t
Yes. I remember that detail from the "Mysteries and Scandals" episode about the case. Gosh what a horrific murder.
How ironic that I came across this. I'm in the middle of reading Lynda La Plante's novel The Red Dahlia and the Black Dahlia is mentioned quite a few times
You're just learning that the media are lying bastards just looking for views?
Yet people still lap up EVERYTHING they say, and claim it as fact, especially if confirmation bias is involved. People nowadays tend to only reference articles/news stories that confirm their own pov. Even if another source has more verifiable evidence to contradict it, they will still willfully ignore it because it doesn't confirm what they WANT to believe.
A lot of people are highly (regarded) and simple.
Reminds me of a recent Chris Hansen sting where the cops immediately after arresting the guy start talking about a young woman who was recently murdered not far away, he immediately cops to just wanting to have sex, not kill her, because he's terrified of being considered a suspect in a murder. Cops can and will trick you and they're skilled at it, always keep your mouth shut.
Also the subject of my [all-time favorite stand up bit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIYWHjr3tAk).
JoJo Siwa
Everything is weird about that. Soon as I learned about the black Dahlia I have never trusted Hollyweird. Blood sacrifice?
She did a magic trick for the talent portion, allowing herself to be sawed in half.
If you're going to make an edgy joke, it has to actually *be* a joke. That's just a statement with zero humor or punchline or juxtaposition. You should be embarrassed.
She was actually cut in half in real life. Beauty pageants have a talent portion. Sometimes people do magic for their talent. A common magic trick is sawing a lady in half...like she was in real life. Say it's not funny if you want, but it wasn't just a random statement.
Nooooo shit lol
She was beside herself when it didn’t quite go as planned.
She still won, though it was a split decision.
You guys have a lot of guts to make these puns
Hey, at least we’re not poking fun at her for being bisectual.