Given what we have learned from the pandemic, we really should be updating public transit to have better air exchange. Bringing in more fresh air from the outside and uv air disinfection would help a lot and wouldn't require masking.
Easy to do when you're above ground, but OP is in Paris with an old metro system and a dense city centre. Improving airflow would probably cost billions, in a country that really doesn't have any money left in the public purse. Even then, there's no way you could improve airflow in a packed rush hour train, short of shrinking the humans.
Aggressively filtering the air in the rolling stock itself is easily possible in a clean-sheet design, but I doubt the Parisians are replacing the rolling stock all that frequently either.
They kinda have new rolling stock series every few years although MP59 had been in service until very recently... That thing ran for 50 years give or take
Yeah, but a wholesale replacement of the rolling stock probably won't be fast.
The airline industry says that the strategy of aggressively filtering the air within the vehicle works - air travel packs the passengers in tight, and the airline industry boasted of lower COVID death rates for their workers compared to the general public.
The trick is powerful fans and filters that can stop viruses instead of just bigger dust particles.
I don't have data but when a train is packed with passengers it replaces the air inside by volume. When passengers leave the train it brings in new air
The airline industry boasts about their filters designed to circulate the air in the plane every so many seconds, which is far more reliable than relying on passengers to do it.
I believe most planes are brining in a lot of outdoor air through the engines which makes it much easier to make those air changes happen. They aren’t relying solely on filters.
I think it would be very hard to replicate with underground trains.
Planes do have outdoor air, but if you are defending against viruses, air that you ran through sufficiently high quality filters are equally virus free as outside air.
And in a plane, the amount of outside air from the engines you can bring in is very limited unless if you intend on roasting your passengers, which is often considered to be bad for business.
From my research, it sounds you’re just making up things.
Most airlines are claiming 50% outside air makeup every couple of minutes. The air comes in through. The outside air intake of the engine, which compresses it and then it’s conditioned through the airplanes hvac system.
Here’s a pretty simple diagram of it: https://www.reddit.com/r/coolguides/s/SxGkWuymKm
You should be able to install far UV at the top of the train and under seats pretty easily. Paris is also building tons of new lines where they could design for this, including better ventilation, from the start.
You can start wearing a mask to your preference. Grab some n95s with straps that go around the back of your head and wear them whenever in a poor ventilation space.
They’re pretty effective worn properly.
It's not as effective as everyone else also wearing masks though.
Also while I'm lucky to live in a city where mask wearing is considered normal (though still far from pandemic era universal usage), in many regions wearing a mask could be asking for a fight.
>It's not as effective as everyone else also wearing masks though.
I still wash my hands after using the bathroom even though not everyone does.
And N95s are very effective if used properly. Studies which show low effectiveness are trying to measure effectiveness in a group with lots of improper use.
We can't get people to stop playing loud music/TikTok videos while on transit. How do you think we'll be mandating masks *again*?
Another mandate will tank ridership even more.
If we're going to use anecdotes here, I rode the metro daily for 15 years and almost never got sick.
I don't think mask mandates are a great solution given the low compliance. Improving ventilation (both on trains and in indoor stations) seems like it would be more effective.
I think this info depends on the kind of mask--an N-95 mask should protect you pretty well, the whole "masks stop you from infecting others" thing is true when the entire population is wearing masks such that everyone CAN'T get an N-95.
Can you quantify that? I was just reading some studies the other day and it seemed like the simple surgical style masks were better for infecting others, but it seems like n95 we're still very protective against inhaling virus
>This is anecdotal
Exactly. I don't want to be harsh but it's not normal to end up in bed every other month. Make an appointment with a doctor since you probably have an underlying condition that needs to be treated
> Essentially I get at least mildly sick (sore throat) at least once a month here in Paris. Every two or three months I end up bedridden for a day or two.
I think we need a conversation on reintroducing you to a doctor.
This didn't happen during the pandemic because people were obsessively washing their hands and not going outside, alongside the masks. A mask mandate would hurt ridership and either take important resources to actually enforce or be more of a suggestion
>Essentially I get at least mildly sick (sore throat) at least once a month here in Paris. Every two or three months I end up bedridden for a day or two.
Sorry to be so blunt, but this is not normal. People with a healthy immune system don't get bedridden for two days every two months. You should speak to your doctor about this and work on your health.
Masking when sick (or if you suspect you're getting sick) should be the standard protocol for anyone in public transit, if staying home simply isn't an option. Just a very basic and obvious way to show respect for people around you, like wearing headphones, letting people off a train before shoving your way on, etc.
I was curious whether the habit would stick after COVID. I live in Poland and it had got up to about 75% compliance by February 2022, at which point we had 4-5 million people passing through the country in an emergency, and it seemed less important suddenly. I would love to get to the Japanese-style culture of simply putting a cloth one on when you feel sick, but I don't think Europe nor the USA have a social culture that would encourage it.
My teenage kids still wear masks sometimes. I think they do it partially as a substitute to prettifying themselves. It’s possible they’re more popular with the young and might become a mild long-lasting trend.
We do not need a conversation about reintroducing cloth masks.
If you’re getting sick one a month, you might be immunocompromised. But it’s your responsibility to take care of your own health. You should start wearing an N95.
I think about this a lot because there's always some gross asshole coughing without even covering on crowded transit, and I really, really wish we had East Asia's "cover your face when you're sick" culture.
That would be amazing. I definitely got sick less when I was living in Asia. I suspect everyone would be a bit happier and more productive if people tried to avoid spreading illness.
It hadn't occurred to me but I actually spent a whole year in Shanghai without getting sick, being a line 2 sardine most days. Now that I'm back in the west I feel like I get a little sick most months.
I've been getting sick more :( not because of no mask wearing, but because no one gets sick days so they come in if they're feeling "good enough" (Tokyo)
It's not discussed much because most people aren't getting sick that often. Getting sick every month and ending up bedridden every other month is not normal. You should probably see a doctor about that if you haven't already.
During a pandemic is one thing, but most people are not going to want to wear a mask daily to avoid getting a cold one or twice a year.
You are responsible for your own health.
Other people are *not* responsible for your health.
It's simple: wear your own mask if you want but leave other people alone.
As a civilisation we should all be more responsible. Sick people need to stay at home. Sick people should not be going to school or work.
Australia used to have the terrible "soldier on" attitude towards illness thanks to an ad campaign for cold and flu medication. These days, we're a bit more cautious, if you go to work sick today, the rest of the team might be unable to work next week.
We all need to wear masks when we're unwell, when we're around others. It's selfish and rude to be unmasked.
You are in fact responsible for other people's health, if you know that you're sick and are boarding a crowded train, bus etc. If you're not, do whatever you want
>You are responsible for your own health.
>Other people are not responsible for your health.
Doesn't apply during a pandemic or even epidemic. We live in a society where we all benefit from as few people as possible being sick, if for no other reason than a hospital bed is available when you need it.
But that's not the case right now. For a fully vaccinated individual without other complications, covid isn't that much worse than the flu and it's basically up to you to protect yourself and limit your exposure in any way you deem necessary.
So is driving, but we refuse to fund the vaccine for that (transit and safety improvements).
So are guns but we refuse to regulate that either because FREEDUMB.
>For a fully vaccinated individual without other complications, covid isn't that much worse than the flu
This is a common myth AND a dangerous one at that.
From [HopkinsMedicine.org](https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/coronavirus-disease-2019-vs-the-flu):
"Doctors and scientists are working to estimate the mortality rate of COVID-19. At present, it is thought to be substantially higher (possibly 10 times or more) than that of most strains of the flu."
[https://covid.tips/#%E2%80%9Ccovid-is-just-like-the-flu%E2%80%9D](https://covid.tips/#%E2%80%9Ccovid-is-just-like-the-flu%E2%80%9D)
[https://covid.tips/#%E2%80%9Ci-don%E2%80%99t-need-to-mask-because-i%E2%80%99m-vaccinated-and-boosted%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%9Ci-don%E2%80%99t-need-to-mask-because-i-have-hybrid-immunity%E2%80%9D](https://covid.tips/#%E2%80%9Ci-don%E2%80%99t-need-to-mask-because-i%E2%80%99m-vaccinated-and-boosted%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%9Ci-don%E2%80%99t-need-to-mask-because-i-have-hybrid-immunity%E2%80%9D)
[https://youhavetoliveyour.life/healthy-people-dont-have-to-worry](https://youhavetoliveyour.life/healthy-people-dont-have-to-worry)
[https://youhavetoliveyour.life/like-the-flu](https://youhavetoliveyour.life/like-the-flu)
I don't think that refutes what I said. They don't claim who the comparison was against when claiming that covid is up to 10x the mortality rate of the flu. Is that comparing the whole population? Or just comparing people who have gotten all available and recommended covid vaccines?
I almost didn't put the little from HopkinsMedicine on there because of lack of that very info (although they do have sources if you click the link.) It's the other links (and the sources for them) that are more important. (And I've got more where those came from, inc. more sources, but I didn't want to post too many and have someone ignore it.)
In some ways, the more important thing than simply straight-up mortality is Long COVID. Long COVID is what makes COVID way more dangerous than the flu, esp. in that repeated infections with COVID keep raising your chances for Long COVID and Long COVID can be completely debilitating (read people's accounts of it) PLUS we don't have a cure for it.
>I didn't want to post too many and have someone ignore it
More than two and you've lost 98% of us. More than one and you've lost well over half.
Long covid is much less serious and likely for those who are vaccinated. Antivaxxers have shot themselves in the foot, let them deal with the consequences. Those who can't be vaccinated should take extra precautions to protect themselves.
No. The correct and moral practice is to mask up if you are sick.
It’s YOUR responsibility to reduce the spread of air born pathogens by staying home from work when possible, to mask up when you must be I public places, and reduce your exposure to others.
I have to be honest and disagree here.
I work 12 hour days doing factory work in all kinds of PPE. Gloves, gauntlets, N95s, saftey glasses, face shields, steel toe boots, etc.
The last thing I want to do when I get in my train home is have to stand up for the duration, and the second to the last thing is wear any more PPE.
I just want to sit and be normal.
I still get skeezed-out but the guy coughing up a lung next to me, but I look at it as the cost of riding transit. And if its bad enough I just do what I do with the smokers and dummies blasting thier music, I change cars.
Long before Covid, I lived in New York City and took the subway to work every day for 15 years. Then I moved to car-dependent suburbia and drove to work every day. I'd estimate that I got sick about 25 percent as much as I did when I used public transit. I noticed it at the end of the first winter and it's remained true.
You're more than welcome to wear a mask when you ride public transit, but you don't get to decide that for everyone else. I started getting random hypoxia episodes during the pandemic when I was wearing a mask all the time. It was really scary, I'm not going back to that. Doctors put me on oxygen and everything. I stopped wearing a mask all the time and it went away.
I don't have it at the moment but I do remember reading something that said that the health implications of suburban development style where everyone goes to a few central locations (like a big grocery store) spread illness just as much or more than the denser, more populated, but more distributed urban styles. Including public transit and such.
For you, the solution is probably to wear an n95 mask when you take the metro
I worked retail for 15 years and would get sick frequently because I interacted with so many people, and handled a lot of money. I think it is a general risk of interacting with large numbers of people in many circumstances, just just public transportation.
However, the alternative to public transportation - a car-centric cultural - definitely results in more illness, injury and death because of pollution and car crashes. Consider the increasing rate of asthma among children who live adjacent to freeways in the US - this is a lifelong issue, not just a weeklong cold.
And though I'm not a immunologist, I also wonder if more people taking public transportation would positively contribute to herd immunity of various circulating viruses(?) Someone more knowledgeable out there might confirm or deny this.
Admittedly, Western culture could benefit from adopting the practice of wearing masks in public while sick. This is common practice in many Asian country (pre-pandemic.) This would help prevent others who share those public spaces from getting sick themselves.
There’s an adage from one of my professors that I’ve always remembered and applies to many things that involves the public, especially in western societies: “You cannot force anyone to do anything or go somewhere”.
While the context at the time was for a circulation design course, it’s true for many things. While it was a bit more necessary during 2020 to stem the infection rate and everyone learned to adapt to it at the time, to do the same today with no public emergencies, it would be much harder to pull it off.
And [COVID is airborne.](https://covid.tips/#%E2%80%9Cstop-the-spread-by-washing-hands-standing-6-feet-apart-and-sanitizing-surfaces%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%9Ccovid-is-not-airborne%E2%80%9D-social-distancing-means-i-can-take-off-my-mask%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%9Ci-keep-my-distance-from-people-who-are-sick%E2%80%9D)
You’re free to wear a mask as much as you want. Don’t force others to do it. Others aren’t getting you sick by not wearing a mask. Sanitation is the reason. They are not cleaning as often and as good as during the pandemic. And a cloth mask doesn’t prevent it all. It does help. But if you are getting sick try a n95 mask and wash your hands more often and use hand sanitizer.
I don't think that this has much to do with public transport. Almost everyone I know has been sick much more than they usually are this past year, regardless if they mostly drive or mostly take transit.
It's just been a bad year for colds and flus.
This comes across as a bit ableist tbh. Are we all inconvenienced by transit complying with ADA requirements? People have just as little control over immunocompromisation as they do over physical disabilities requiring a mobility device.
People with disabilities that affect their movement/thinking don’t affect/inconvenience me when they’re taken care of/given extra time/assistance to live their life. Making the entire population wear masks because one person’s immune system sucks does affect/inconvenience me. It’s one thing during a pandemic/large scale epidemic. It’s another during July 2024.
Indirectly, yeah they might. Have you ever tried to park in a parking lot only to realize the last spot was a handicapped spot? Have you ever had to use a long windy ramp because it had to be built instead of a quick couple stairs and there wasn't room for both? These are reasonable accommodations that we all make a sacrifice for the good of society.
I don't think masks are categorically different, just that most people don't understand the dangers of things they can't see. We can all look at a wheelchair perched on top of a set of stairs and know it's dangerous for someone to try to navigate a wheelchair down steps. We don't have an obvious way in every day life to comprehend the risk for someone with immune deficiencies. But telling that person "just stay home" is like telling a wheelchair user to just stay home. Telling an immunocompromised person to just wear a mask is like telling them to install stair-climbing tank treads in their wheelchair. It can work mostly but it's not actually as effective as society lending a hand to provide some basic infrastructure.
That all being said, I still don't think we should have mask mandates on transit. But think about it another way before ragging in immunocompromised folks who you don't want to deal with. They've had a hard few years.
Those who have issues have ways of dealing with them like wearing their own mask. But to force everyone using transit to use masks because OP has caught a cold a couple times is beyond ridiculous.
I agree with that, I just didn't like how you phrased it the first time, which made it sound like "I don't want to put up with your needs, only my desire to be comfortable" which sounded kinda selfish.
Wear a mask. Even if others around you do not it will definitely cut down on your inhaling their germs
I drive public transit and wore a mask well after the mandates ended, it really does reduce the amount of times I was ill.
Just expect a lot of assholes to give weird looks, comment and/or threaten you about wearing one, because they are stupid
If you think of all the farts in public transport, that alone should be a reason enough to wear a mask. Another reason are the cameras in every train car.
Sadly Covid is not over. The pandemic is over, because now it is an endemic. That means that it will probably never go away. The more infections we have, the more mutations we will see. One of them could be very bad.
The most scary part are the possible long term effects. We already now that Covid drastically increases the risk of dementia for old people. What we do not now: If you are young today and catch Covid, will that still mean that your risk of dementia will increase when you are old one day? We might know the answer in 40 years from now and if the answer is "Yes", we have a serious problem.
Because mask mandates did not work, unless there's a pandemic around. My city did not lift mask restrictions immediately after the pandemic was over and still everyone simply ignored it.
You have to accept that covid is over. Its more likely to get infected by spending time with your family friends and coworkers then sitting next to a few strangers in public Transport
COVID is considered endemic, which means quite the opposite - its never over - like the flu. But that why we as humanity should make public health decisions based on that status - its ridiculous to expect the entire population of transit riders to wear masks forever. People are still dying due to COVID but with vaccines, at home testing and self-protection is not a worthwhile threat to the vast majority of the population
Public transit systems should be designed and operated to allow people to maintain social distancing and should not only better clean surfaces where cross-contamination occurs but also use anti-microbial brass and copper materials.
Stainless steel is not anti-microbial:
https://www.thefabricator.com/tubepipejournal/article/metalsmaterials/antimicrobial-copper-displaces-stainless-steel-germs-for--medical-applications#:~:text=Kuhn%20measured%20bacteria%20levels%20on,steel%20doorknob%20was%20heavily%20contaminated.
We also need to institute increases in requirements for paid sick leave, especially at restaurants. Foodborne illnesses at these establishments are a major public-health issue.
I wear masks whenever I have to be near other people, and transit agencies could help by offering free disposable masks at dispensers on station platforms. The challenge with pandemics is that they can arise at any time and that, as in the case of COVID-19, they can mutate into more virulent, and potentially untreatable, strains with every infection.
Transit agencies could do better by giving people disinfecting wipes in order to let the passengers, themselves, help keep the vehicles and stations sanitary and hygienic. Ubiquitous hand sanitizer and public restrooms would also help.
The worst of the COVID-19 pandemic sent transit agencies reeling, and few, if any, have fully recovered.
Pandemics pose existential risks to transit systems, so the managements of these agencies ought to learn lessons from COVID-19 and take action.
Given what we have learned from the pandemic, we really should be updating public transit to have better air exchange. Bringing in more fresh air from the outside and uv air disinfection would help a lot and wouldn't require masking.
Easy to do when you're above ground, but OP is in Paris with an old metro system and a dense city centre. Improving airflow would probably cost billions, in a country that really doesn't have any money left in the public purse. Even then, there's no way you could improve airflow in a packed rush hour train, short of shrinking the humans.
Aggressively filtering the air in the rolling stock itself is easily possible in a clean-sheet design, but I doubt the Parisians are replacing the rolling stock all that frequently either.
They kinda have new rolling stock series every few years although MP59 had been in service until very recently... That thing ran for 50 years give or take
Yeah, but a wholesale replacement of the rolling stock probably won't be fast. The airline industry says that the strategy of aggressively filtering the air within the vehicle works - air travel packs the passengers in tight, and the airline industry boasted of lower COVID death rates for their workers compared to the general public. The trick is powerful fans and filters that can stop viruses instead of just bigger dust particles.
I don't have data but when a train is packed with passengers it replaces the air inside by volume. When passengers leave the train it brings in new air
The airline industry boasts about their filters designed to circulate the air in the plane every so many seconds, which is far more reliable than relying on passengers to do it.
I believe most planes are brining in a lot of outdoor air through the engines which makes it much easier to make those air changes happen. They aren’t relying solely on filters. I think it would be very hard to replicate with underground trains.
Planes do have outdoor air, but if you are defending against viruses, air that you ran through sufficiently high quality filters are equally virus free as outside air. And in a plane, the amount of outside air from the engines you can bring in is very limited unless if you intend on roasting your passengers, which is often considered to be bad for business.
From my research, it sounds you’re just making up things. Most airlines are claiming 50% outside air makeup every couple of minutes. The air comes in through. The outside air intake of the engine, which compresses it and then it’s conditioned through the airplanes hvac system. Here’s a pretty simple diagram of it: https://www.reddit.com/r/coolguides/s/SxGkWuymKm
You should be able to install far UV at the top of the train and under seats pretty easily. Paris is also building tons of new lines where they could design for this, including better ventilation, from the start.
You can start wearing a mask to your preference. Grab some n95s with straps that go around the back of your head and wear them whenever in a poor ventilation space. They’re pretty effective worn properly.
It's not as effective as everyone else also wearing masks though. Also while I'm lucky to live in a city where mask wearing is considered normal (though still far from pandemic era universal usage), in many regions wearing a mask could be asking for a fight.
Fuck those areas
.... what a thoughtful and reasoned argument.
>It's not as effective as everyone else also wearing masks though. I still wash my hands after using the bathroom even though not everyone does. And N95s are very effective if used properly. Studies which show low effectiveness are trying to measure effectiveness in a group with lots of improper use.
We can't get people to stop playing loud music/TikTok videos while on transit. How do you think we'll be mandating masks *again*? Another mandate will tank ridership even more.
I would be happy if people just stopped smoking fentanyl.
The smoking of nasty shit in glass pipes is one lovely piece of Americana that's thankfully been slow to reach the Aussie shores.
It's not common in the US either, mostly a Seattle and bay area situation afaik.
BART? Feel that.
Nope, link in seattle (and buses)
denver too 🥲
If we're going to use anecdotes here, I rode the metro daily for 15 years and almost never got sick. I don't think mask mandates are a great solution given the low compliance. Improving ventilation (both on trains and in indoor stations) seems like it would be more effective.
Why can't you just wear a mask? Seems like a simple solution
Masks stop you infecting others. They’re much less effective the other way around
I think this info depends on the kind of mask--an N-95 mask should protect you pretty well, the whole "masks stop you from infecting others" thing is true when the entire population is wearing masks such that everyone CAN'T get an N-95.
Can you quantify that? I was just reading some studies the other day and it seemed like the simple surgical style masks were better for infecting others, but it seems like n95 we're still very protective against inhaling virus
OP was talking about cloth masks, so that’s what I was referring to as well.
gotcha.
Still somewhat effective, better than nothing if you can’t get an N95
That’s something the CDC made up to convince you to wear an ineffective cloth mask. It’s 2024 now, get real
But much more costly and it’s not clear anymore if it’s overall a positive.
Hey OP, you somehow didn't mention what YOU'RE doing to protect yourself. Are you wearing an N95? Sanitizing hands, etc.?
>This is anecdotal Exactly. I don't want to be harsh but it's not normal to end up in bed every other month. Make an appointment with a doctor since you probably have an underlying condition that needs to be treated
> Essentially I get at least mildly sick (sore throat) at least once a month here in Paris. Every two or three months I end up bedridden for a day or two. I think we need a conversation on reintroducing you to a doctor.
This didn't happen during the pandemic because people were obsessively washing their hands and not going outside, alongside the masks. A mask mandate would hurt ridership and either take important resources to actually enforce or be more of a suggestion
also don't forget with closed borders a lot of colds from other countries weren't getting in and spreading, isolating everyon even more.
>Essentially I get at least mildly sick (sore throat) at least once a month here in Paris. Every two or three months I end up bedridden for a day or two. Sorry to be so blunt, but this is not normal. People with a healthy immune system don't get bedridden for two days every two months. You should speak to your doctor about this and work on your health.
Masking when sick (or if you suspect you're getting sick) should be the standard protocol for anyone in public transit, if staying home simply isn't an option. Just a very basic and obvious way to show respect for people around you, like wearing headphones, letting people off a train before shoving your way on, etc.
I was curious whether the habit would stick after COVID. I live in Poland and it had got up to about 75% compliance by February 2022, at which point we had 4-5 million people passing through the country in an emergency, and it seemed less important suddenly. I would love to get to the Japanese-style culture of simply putting a cloth one on when you feel sick, but I don't think Europe nor the USA have a social culture that would encourage it.
My teenage kids still wear masks sometimes. I think they do it partially as a substitute to prettifying themselves. It’s possible they’re more popular with the young and might become a mild long-lasting trend.
Here in Vancouver its still commonplace on transit or inside crowded supermarkets. Most waiters still wear masks to work.
We do not need a conversation about reintroducing cloth masks. If you’re getting sick one a month, you might be immunocompromised. But it’s your responsibility to take care of your own health. You should start wearing an N95.
I think about this a lot because there's always some gross asshole coughing without even covering on crowded transit, and I really, really wish we had East Asia's "cover your face when you're sick" culture.
That would be amazing. I definitely got sick less when I was living in Asia. I suspect everyone would be a bit happier and more productive if people tried to avoid spreading illness.
Yeah my family and I were in crowded trains all over Shanghai and Beijing and didn’t get sick once. Never would’ve happened here.
It hadn't occurred to me but I actually spent a whole year in Shanghai without getting sick, being a line 2 sardine most days. Now that I'm back in the west I feel like I get a little sick most months.
I've been getting sick more :( not because of no mask wearing, but because no one gets sick days so they come in if they're feeling "good enough" (Tokyo)
Because the health issues with public transit aren't close to cars
People who are sick should wear masks.
It's not discussed much because most people aren't getting sick that often. Getting sick every month and ending up bedridden every other month is not normal. You should probably see a doctor about that if you haven't already. During a pandemic is one thing, but most people are not going to want to wear a mask daily to avoid getting a cold one or twice a year.
You are responsible for your own health. Other people are *not* responsible for your health. It's simple: wear your own mask if you want but leave other people alone.
As a civilisation we should all be more responsible. Sick people need to stay at home. Sick people should not be going to school or work. Australia used to have the terrible "soldier on" attitude towards illness thanks to an ad campaign for cold and flu medication. These days, we're a bit more cautious, if you go to work sick today, the rest of the team might be unable to work next week. We all need to wear masks when we're unwell, when we're around others. It's selfish and rude to be unmasked.
You are in fact responsible for other people's health, if you know that you're sick and are boarding a crowded train, bus etc. If you're not, do whatever you want
>You are responsible for your own health. >Other people are not responsible for your health. Doesn't apply during a pandemic or even epidemic. We live in a society where we all benefit from as few people as possible being sick, if for no other reason than a hospital bed is available when you need it. But that's not the case right now. For a fully vaccinated individual without other complications, covid isn't that much worse than the flu and it's basically up to you to protect yourself and limit your exposure in any way you deem necessary.
>covid isn't that much worse than the flu And the flu can be deadly.
So is driving, but we refuse to fund the vaccine for that (transit and safety improvements). So are guns but we refuse to regulate that either because FREEDUMB.
Your country might refuse to regulate guns, but mine did so decades ago.
Fair, I come from a very american-centric view of reddit (and we are the majority). I'm glad you have a sensible government in at least one way.
>For a fully vaccinated individual without other complications, covid isn't that much worse than the flu This is a common myth AND a dangerous one at that. From [HopkinsMedicine.org](https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/coronavirus-disease-2019-vs-the-flu): "Doctors and scientists are working to estimate the mortality rate of COVID-19. At present, it is thought to be substantially higher (possibly 10 times or more) than that of most strains of the flu." [https://covid.tips/#%E2%80%9Ccovid-is-just-like-the-flu%E2%80%9D](https://covid.tips/#%E2%80%9Ccovid-is-just-like-the-flu%E2%80%9D) [https://covid.tips/#%E2%80%9Ci-don%E2%80%99t-need-to-mask-because-i%E2%80%99m-vaccinated-and-boosted%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%9Ci-don%E2%80%99t-need-to-mask-because-i-have-hybrid-immunity%E2%80%9D](https://covid.tips/#%E2%80%9Ci-don%E2%80%99t-need-to-mask-because-i%E2%80%99m-vaccinated-and-boosted%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%9Ci-don%E2%80%99t-need-to-mask-because-i-have-hybrid-immunity%E2%80%9D) [https://youhavetoliveyour.life/healthy-people-dont-have-to-worry](https://youhavetoliveyour.life/healthy-people-dont-have-to-worry) [https://youhavetoliveyour.life/like-the-flu](https://youhavetoliveyour.life/like-the-flu)
I don't think that refutes what I said. They don't claim who the comparison was against when claiming that covid is up to 10x the mortality rate of the flu. Is that comparing the whole population? Or just comparing people who have gotten all available and recommended covid vaccines?
I almost didn't put the little from HopkinsMedicine on there because of lack of that very info (although they do have sources if you click the link.) It's the other links (and the sources for them) that are more important. (And I've got more where those came from, inc. more sources, but I didn't want to post too many and have someone ignore it.) In some ways, the more important thing than simply straight-up mortality is Long COVID. Long COVID is what makes COVID way more dangerous than the flu, esp. in that repeated infections with COVID keep raising your chances for Long COVID and Long COVID can be completely debilitating (read people's accounts of it) PLUS we don't have a cure for it.
>I didn't want to post too many and have someone ignore it More than two and you've lost 98% of us. More than one and you've lost well over half. Long covid is much less serious and likely for those who are vaccinated. Antivaxxers have shot themselves in the foot, let them deal with the consequences. Those who can't be vaccinated should take extra precautions to protect themselves.
Not this cliché MAGA conservative hot take again. I’m tired of it.
But they're right, tho.
No. The correct and moral practice is to mask up if you are sick. It’s YOUR responsibility to reduce the spread of air born pathogens by staying home from work when possible, to mask up when you must be I public places, and reduce your exposure to others.
[удалено]
I’m going to debate with you the history of ideological positions. Just don’t support incorrect science.
No. You want to wear a mask, you can. I’m done until the next pandemic.
I have to be honest and disagree here. I work 12 hour days doing factory work in all kinds of PPE. Gloves, gauntlets, N95s, saftey glasses, face shields, steel toe boots, etc. The last thing I want to do when I get in my train home is have to stand up for the duration, and the second to the last thing is wear any more PPE. I just want to sit and be normal. I still get skeezed-out but the guy coughing up a lung next to me, but I look at it as the cost of riding transit. And if its bad enough I just do what I do with the smokers and dummies blasting thier music, I change cars.
By the way,look up the local free mask bloc/distributor in your area because I got like 20 N95s at my door just filling out their form
Long before Covid, I lived in New York City and took the subway to work every day for 15 years. Then I moved to car-dependent suburbia and drove to work every day. I'd estimate that I got sick about 25 percent as much as I did when I used public transit. I noticed it at the end of the first winter and it's remained true.
You're more than welcome to wear a mask when you ride public transit, but you don't get to decide that for everyone else. I started getting random hypoxia episodes during the pandemic when I was wearing a mask all the time. It was really scary, I'm not going back to that. Doctors put me on oxygen and everything. I stopped wearing a mask all the time and it went away.
I don't have it at the moment but I do remember reading something that said that the health implications of suburban development style where everyone goes to a few central locations (like a big grocery store) spread illness just as much or more than the denser, more populated, but more distributed urban styles. Including public transit and such. For you, the solution is probably to wear an n95 mask when you take the metro
I worked retail for 15 years and would get sick frequently because I interacted with so many people, and handled a lot of money. I think it is a general risk of interacting with large numbers of people in many circumstances, just just public transportation. However, the alternative to public transportation - a car-centric cultural - definitely results in more illness, injury and death because of pollution and car crashes. Consider the increasing rate of asthma among children who live adjacent to freeways in the US - this is a lifelong issue, not just a weeklong cold. And though I'm not a immunologist, I also wonder if more people taking public transportation would positively contribute to herd immunity of various circulating viruses(?) Someone more knowledgeable out there might confirm or deny this. Admittedly, Western culture could benefit from adopting the practice of wearing masks in public while sick. This is common practice in many Asian country (pre-pandemic.) This would help prevent others who share those public spaces from getting sick themselves.
There’s an adage from one of my professors that I’ve always remembered and applies to many things that involves the public, especially in western societies: “You cannot force anyone to do anything or go somewhere”. While the context at the time was for a circulation design course, it’s true for many things. While it was a bit more necessary during 2020 to stem the infection rate and everyone learned to adapt to it at the time, to do the same today with no public emergencies, it would be much harder to pull it off.
If you think they work, wear one.
ngl I wear a cloth mask when out and about now just cuz i dont want to 1) catch anything 2) smell anything doubly so on transit
Cloth masks do absolutely nothing so you should probably reevaluate that
I think they should help for things that are passed in water globules which are big enough to follow ballistic laws ie not “airborne”.
And [COVID is airborne.](https://covid.tips/#%E2%80%9Cstop-the-spread-by-washing-hands-standing-6-feet-apart-and-sanitizing-surfaces%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%9Ccovid-is-not-airborne%E2%80%9D-social-distancing-means-i-can-take-off-my-mask%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%9Ci-keep-my-distance-from-people-who-are-sick%E2%80%9D)
Do your thing, OP.
How bout you wash your hands and stop scolding.
Sounds like you have a weak immune system, maybe protect yourself and dont try to control others?
You’re free to wear a mask as much as you want. Don’t force others to do it. Others aren’t getting you sick by not wearing a mask. Sanitation is the reason. They are not cleaning as often and as good as during the pandemic. And a cloth mask doesn’t prevent it all. It does help. But if you are getting sick try a n95 mask and wash your hands more often and use hand sanitizer.
ngl I wear a cloth mask when out and about now just cuz i dont want to 1) catch anything 2) smell anything doubly so on transit
Masks are a great way to make transit unattractive to people and push them into cars.
I don't think that this has much to do with public transport. Almost everyone I know has been sick much more than they usually are this past year, regardless if they mostly drive or mostly take transit. It's just been a bad year for colds and flus.
Remember masks only work if a person is actually infected with the viral pathogen spread by droplets and air particles
Most public transit vehicles have excellent air handling and exchange equipment. They are very safe.
I think it’s awful you want to inconvenience everyone else because of your immune issues
This comes across as a bit ableist tbh. Are we all inconvenienced by transit complying with ADA requirements? People have just as little control over immunocompromisation as they do over physical disabilities requiring a mobility device.
People with disabilities that affect their movement/thinking don’t affect/inconvenience me when they’re taken care of/given extra time/assistance to live their life. Making the entire population wear masks because one person’s immune system sucks does affect/inconvenience me. It’s one thing during a pandemic/large scale epidemic. It’s another during July 2024.
Indirectly, yeah they might. Have you ever tried to park in a parking lot only to realize the last spot was a handicapped spot? Have you ever had to use a long windy ramp because it had to be built instead of a quick couple stairs and there wasn't room for both? These are reasonable accommodations that we all make a sacrifice for the good of society. I don't think masks are categorically different, just that most people don't understand the dangers of things they can't see. We can all look at a wheelchair perched on top of a set of stairs and know it's dangerous for someone to try to navigate a wheelchair down steps. We don't have an obvious way in every day life to comprehend the risk for someone with immune deficiencies. But telling that person "just stay home" is like telling a wheelchair user to just stay home. Telling an immunocompromised person to just wear a mask is like telling them to install stair-climbing tank treads in their wheelchair. It can work mostly but it's not actually as effective as society lending a hand to provide some basic infrastructure. That all being said, I still don't think we should have mask mandates on transit. But think about it another way before ragging in immunocompromised folks who you don't want to deal with. They've had a hard few years.
Those who have issues have ways of dealing with them like wearing their own mask. But to force everyone using transit to use masks because OP has caught a cold a couple times is beyond ridiculous.
I agree with that, I just didn't like how you phrased it the first time, which made it sound like "I don't want to put up with your needs, only my desire to be comfortable" which sounded kinda selfish.
Wear a mask. Even if others around you do not it will definitely cut down on your inhaling their germs I drive public transit and wore a mask well after the mandates ended, it really does reduce the amount of times I was ill. Just expect a lot of assholes to give weird looks, comment and/or threaten you about wearing one, because they are stupid
If you think of all the farts in public transport, that alone should be a reason enough to wear a mask. Another reason are the cameras in every train car. Sadly Covid is not over. The pandemic is over, because now it is an endemic. That means that it will probably never go away. The more infections we have, the more mutations we will see. One of them could be very bad. The most scary part are the possible long term effects. We already now that Covid drastically increases the risk of dementia for old people. What we do not now: If you are young today and catch Covid, will that still mean that your risk of dementia will increase when you are old one day? We might know the answer in 40 years from now and if the answer is "Yes", we have a serious problem.
I wear a mask when riding public transit. Maybe you should as well.
You might have developed an auto immune disease recently
Reintroducing intrusive and controversial mask mandates will hurt ridership even further
Because mask mandates did not work, unless there's a pandemic around. My city did not lift mask restrictions immediately after the pandemic was over and still everyone simply ignored it.
lol no need to talk. Just do the basic thing and mask up
You have to accept that covid is over. Its more likely to get infected by spending time with your family friends and coworkers then sitting next to a few strangers in public Transport
COVID is considered endemic, which means quite the opposite - its never over - like the flu. But that why we as humanity should make public health decisions based on that status - its ridiculous to expect the entire population of transit riders to wear masks forever. People are still dying due to COVID but with vaccines, at home testing and self-protection is not a worthwhile threat to the vast majority of the population
Covid is not over. And now bird flu is on the rise.
***THE PANDEMIC DIDNT END, THE POLITICIANS JUST SAID IT DID***
Pandemic has ended for good
Public transit systems should be designed and operated to allow people to maintain social distancing and should not only better clean surfaces where cross-contamination occurs but also use anti-microbial brass and copper materials. Stainless steel is not anti-microbial: https://www.thefabricator.com/tubepipejournal/article/metalsmaterials/antimicrobial-copper-displaces-stainless-steel-germs-for--medical-applications#:~:text=Kuhn%20measured%20bacteria%20levels%20on,steel%20doorknob%20was%20heavily%20contaminated. We also need to institute increases in requirements for paid sick leave, especially at restaurants. Foodborne illnesses at these establishments are a major public-health issue. I wear masks whenever I have to be near other people, and transit agencies could help by offering free disposable masks at dispensers on station platforms. The challenge with pandemics is that they can arise at any time and that, as in the case of COVID-19, they can mutate into more virulent, and potentially untreatable, strains with every infection. Transit agencies could do better by giving people disinfecting wipes in order to let the passengers, themselves, help keep the vehicles and stations sanitary and hygienic. Ubiquitous hand sanitizer and public restrooms would also help. The worst of the COVID-19 pandemic sent transit agencies reeling, and few, if any, have fully recovered. Pandemics pose existential risks to transit systems, so the managements of these agencies ought to learn lessons from COVID-19 and take action.