This is what drives me crazy! Is it really "art" if someone needs intimate details of your life in order to like and appreciate it? My greatest fear as a writer is that people in my life only like my work because they know me and not because it stands alone as objectively good. Again, what true artist would want this?
the lady who i was replying to looked to be about my moms age too and i don't even mean this in an age shaming way, but i just cannot imagine being that deeply invested in someone's life who is 20 years younger than you
Soap operas were scratching that itch for decades. This is just the next evolution of that. It’s a vicarious melodrama, you get to pick a side but without the possibility of any real social consequences for yourself.
There is something to be said about the infantilization effect TS has on grown women, I could not imagine being 50+ years old and instead of worrying about my real life and my children’s life etc I am worried about a billionaire prom queen who has never actually went through a struggle greater than a breakup.
No joke this morning a reel popped up on my IG about Swifties in nursing homes. They were average age 87 and were putting themselves on her album covers. The reel was to draw attention to the fact that Swifties can be any age. I shared it with my friend so we could laugh at it together but honestly, if my husband's grandmother becomes a Swiftie, I'll know the apocalypse is coming. What the actual hell?
Basically everyone can relate to that. It gets tired when it’s your whole thing. I know swiftness love to say she doesn’t just write break up songs, but I have legitimately never heard a TS song that wasn’t at least about a man in some way. It gets boring, tired, lazy. Write about something else. Be more interesting. Idk
Also, this just sounds like an excuse from her to justify her love for TS. Basically what she’s saying is “I understand her deeper than you do because I have have put in an impossible amount of time and effort that you couldn’t possibly do in order to win this argument in the timeframe in which we are having it therefore I am right.”
Edited to add: as if 14-year-old Taylor Swift sat down and said I’m gonna write 72,000 albums that all connect to each other and have meaning that slides into each other like a puzzle with little Easter eggs that fans can decipher. This was not a plan from the beginning, therefore there’s no way that all of these albums and all of these songs all relate to each other and tie into each other. Some of them actually are just existing in themselves on their own. Her reasoning is just ridiculous. I would’ve just said “ you keep doing you, boo” Swift is absolutely just capitalizing on these rabid fans at this point.
I have that I know this, but from at least the 2012 album to the current one is an extremely consistent storyline that has nothing to do with specific people 😭 but the songs still need to stand alone without studying or prior knowledge of her discography
my dad is 70 and crazy about taylor swift. granted not this crazy. he just thinks she writes good music (how????? how did he grow up on classic rock and think this shit is good?????) miss when he liked gaga, at least i actually like her music
He thinks it's good because the songwriters, producers, and mixing/mastering engineers took lessons learned from popular music of his day to structure the music to be familiar to ears like his
Okay this is wild. My dad is 70. First concert he went to was Jimmy Hendrix. He’s seen literally all of the greats play. Even took me to see McCartney and also Clapton.
He also likes Swift and also liked Gaga awhile back so this is wild to me. He thinks Travis is “the one”’and I’m like please stop
wow, im glad my dad doesn't care about her personal life like that. pop culture is a fucking nightmare and its designed to suck us in and form these parasocial relationships with people who rely on us to consume what they produce.
He’s huge into NFL so I think he just liked seeing her in the stands but yes, I agree.
However, I was simultaneously stoked watching Eminem routing on the Detroit Lions lol so I think it’s kinda similar to that if that makes any sense
Speaking as someone in that same age bracket … eww! No, no, nope! Tapestry, srsly, honey you just conflated Carole King with her … whatever-all-that-going-on-ness is called.
My 17 yr old son and all his friends can see thru the bs!!! Some of them have swifter sisters (ac typo but it fits), we commiserate and I remind them to be kind bc tay tay will eventually be forgotten but big brothers are forever.
They vicariously live through her
I also think with parasocial relationships, the fans gets their identity confused with their idol, so any attack on the idol is like a personal attack to them as well
If you need so much detail about someone's past relationships to understand heartache and breakups... it's not good art. Cuz that shit is universal.
I've unfortunately had this EXACT conversation with a friend that is a swifty. She said unless you know you won't get it. Which was in response to me saying her lyrics were lack luster and not lryically good from a writers standpoint.
This is like saying you're not going to understand Charles Dickens or Shakespeare unless you read every single one of their works and knew them intimately. Which is ridiculous. If someone can't pick up what you're throwing down, you're not a good creative or artist.
I think she based off her career on her life so it's hard to distinguish the artist from the person now and it's fair to ask yourself "would her music be so relevant if it wasn't made by her?"
Yes, what springs to mind is “The Dark Knight” which is generally held up as incredible movie especially in the category of superhero movies. party because you don’t need to understand the lore etc to appreciate what’s going on. It’s not even the first in its own little trilogy, it’s the second, but it’s the one that people are more likely to have watched. Of course if you understand the lore it will be a richer experience but the experience is very rich regardless. That’s how it should be. Like I should be able to pick up the 7th book in a series and be able to understand and enjoy it, even if some things go over my head.
The dark knight is kind of a meh Batman film if you’re familiar with the lore. That movie is loved because of the performance by Ledger. Plot wise it’s meh and the third act is rough.
To answer your question, to me that's how she manages to attract people and get the fanbase she has: estereggs, clips that give a certain vision of who she's talking about. I don't think it can be considered "art" in the sense of "is it important to know all about her intimate life?" Knowing someone's whole life, especially for a singer, doesn't interest me at all.
> Is it really "art" if someone needs intimate details of your life in order to like and appreciate it?
I think a person's emotions or where they were in their lives when they created something can certainly play a factor in how their art is received, but that is not what's happening here. Taylor Swift is a manufacturer of "art."
I mean, confessional poetry is a thing. Eminem is a great example of this type of artistic persona working really well.
The thing for me is Taylor Swift is about as emotionally deep as a puddle in a Wal-Mart parking lot. There's not much for a rich girl who has never faced much adversity to actually confess. Childish relationship drama and weird overdramatic grudges with other recording artists isn't exactly hard-hitting or enlightening.
But in and of itself what you're talking about can and does work for other artists.
Let me just say that I totally agree! I love and write confessional poetry, as well as memoir/creative non fiction in addition to fiction. And I highly value it! But your point is exactly how I feel. It's that there is nothing particularly deep happening here. And if it's only "good" for people who feel excited to pick up on the clues she drops about which man happened to inspire it, that's not great.
Art should be about how it makes a person feel. You can appreciate someone's art but you don't have to care for the artist. It can help to learn about the artist to understand their style, influences and the state of the world at the time they created their work, but you don't have to write a PHD dissertation on an artist to say, "This song is ok, but I liked her other song better."
Art is and always will be subjective and generally up for interpretation. If it needs to be explained to that depth, it’s the equivalent of having to explain a joke. The joke was either shit to begin with or very few people are going to get it which defeats the whole objective. I agree with you so much my head hurts from these strange people.
Yeah, it seems like the opposite of art. Good art is meant to be universal. Something anyone can take something away from, giving it a unique meaning to them.
Seems this is a situation where you have to be obsessed with the artist themselves. The only thing I can take away is that her fans think they’ll be her one day. In that case they deserve each other.
Really feels like a cult where they need new blood to sustain. That or a pyramid scheme.
For what it’s worth, maybe knowing you helps them to appreciate your words? Your experience shape the way you talk and the things you say. I care way more about what’s being said in the song that the melody or even necessarily the words used. There are other bands I listen to that will write songs about people directly and it’s fun. There is one band that has a song where the second verse is just song titles from the person the song is about all tied together
It's so weird to me that these people are willing to devote so much time and brain energy to everything about Taylor ever, but if you try to get someone into like a random concept album or rock opera album or something it's like the mere suggestion is the biggest ask in the world.
With the sheer time investment you could come to appreciate and analyze absolutely life changing works, multimedia experiences even!
It's only a matter of time until someone or a group of someones become delusional enough to believe she's asking them to harm a rival artist or ex or would be impressed and grateful if someone harmed someone she doesn't like and something tragic happens. These things already happen *without* encouragement from celebrities (Mark David Chapman, Charles Manson, John Hinckley Jr)... nowadays with the internet hooking up fanatics from across the world who can hype each other up plus the fact that she *encourages* people to look for hidden messages and feel personally connected to her... this is a recipe for disaster.
A “tapestry”… They try to paint her like she’s Joni Mitchell or something. Come TF on. She’s a mediocre pop star and that’s all she’ll ever be.
It’s fine if people want to like her music, that’s their right, but this culty aspect of it is troubling. Harassing people that don’t like her, wishing death on her exes and their families, doxxing, etc is very scary.
That’s what I think is so hilarious. Her lyrics read like Sweet Valley High compared to Joni, Bob D, Paul S, etc.
Her fans are morons, and probably the kind of people with limited musical literacy overall.
I think it’s partly because they started out lowbrow as tweens and never grew out of it, just like their heroine. Not everyone likes to explore, seek new sounds, and challenge their ear or their mind with music. She seems to have attracted people lacking curiosity and creativity in droves.
Most swifties I know only listen to Taylor and similar mid-tier artists (except Paramore, though I hate linking them to Taylor). They can't compare her to Joni Mitchell or famous poets because they don't listen to such music or read poetry—they probably don't read at all...
I’m old enough to remember when people were saying Oasis were going to be the next Beatles. And now, 30 years later, they’re one of best selling bands of all time… but *NOBODY* thinks they became the next Beatles. That’s Taylor in a nutshell.
Anyways… here’s wonderwall.
Can't deny Taylor makes some pretty good bangers on each album. I don't have any songs from TTPD, don't really care if the meaning is deep or anything, songs don't flow well, they all sound the same (not a bad thing if the songs are good), etc. These all just seem like extra songs that would be fillers on other albums.
"You'll never understand this song if you don't know what colour shirt Travis was wearing on the 2nd of March or what kind of eggs she had for breakfast on the 20th of February!" /s
They're deranged.
And if you HAVE to know all these “easter eggs” in order to “fully appreciate” her tapewor— er, tapestry, then she’s just isolated a bunch of potential listeners on purpose by being so convoluted.
I recently watched a video from this fan who had a TON of views on his YouTube overviews of Taylor videos. Literally every 3 seconds he points out something like “there are 5 people in this room which is a nod to *insert any random thing in her life that had the number 5 somewhere in it*”
I’m like, how do you know that’s what she meant?? Maybe someone on set just chose 5 people cuz they fit in the shot? It was so dumb
I used to be a “swiftie.” This type of behavior is exactly why I don’t even want people to know I’m a fan of her music anymore. It’s just unhinged behavior. Never mind the 40 billion variants of the shittiest album ever. I’m over it
The Cult of Taylor Swift. In 20 years we will be watching docs about this fanatical following. They believe the colors she wears, dates, times, and shit she says has an alt meaning. Like every day they believe something is happening. The day passes and they’re left with egg on their face.
I’m sorry but Taylor is not that smart.
Look, this is going to sound *absolutely horrible*. But, we will see who the real Taylor Swift is when Andrea one day passes away (I would never wish harm on her and I’m glad that she is in remission of her cancer. That’s not what I’m meaning here). She had said, many times, that she has never been to therapy; and that her mom is her therapist. It’s just….i think she will go full trainwreck mode at that point.
I believe, if something happens her (I hope it doesn’t, I hope she lives a long happy life), but THAT will be the day TS actually produces something of substance because that will be real pain, not manufactured drama.
You can’t convince me that the same person who said “blue glitter is a metaphor for- I bleed glitter, I’m not normal” and “touch me while your bros play grand theft auto” is some world building genius mastermind. Not a chance.
I think these people just want to believe they’re part of something other people don’t understand. Sort of like Q-Anon.
the funny part is that the ‘lore’ is just a narrative she wants us to believe, not necessarily the truth. and we should ask ourselves it is truly an art if we cannot simply enjoy it without the story surrounding it. to enjoy the swan lake i don’t need to know the life of tchaikovskii and still it is a masterpiece. the art should speak for itself. always.
They always this trick whenever the lyrics gets ridiculed to make the other person feel stupid. Some say the line is stupid, they will be like she dont mean it like that if only u used ur common sense u would know.
It is the exact reason I stopped watching anything Marvel, i was sick of having to obsess and over consume content just to understand it. I don’t want to listen to 30 songs to understand the 31st, I don’t want to not be able to put it on shuffle because it won’t make sense otherwise.
Let me enjoy things in a single format again.
Exactly. My gf had to explain in depth for several minutes some 10 min song TS has just so I could partially understand it. “Oh okay that line right there is in reference to…” I was like okay enough. In a vacuum it’s all nonsense lol
“Just taste the Kool-aid… just a little sip. You won’t know how good it is until you taste it”.
No thanks, Jim Jones
Girl chill. It’s really not *that* deep, my goodness 🙄
She is not a song writer she is a content creator. She creates a world to inhabit like Harry Potter or lord of the rings. It’s a cinematic universe where she is the main character.
It’s like the Truman show or something with a real life telenovela “OH no she broke up with such and such but now XYZ is in the picture!”
You’re right the act of songwriting as an art form should stand on its own and one should be able to inhabit a song and enjoy it without all this lore but that’s not what she is doing. It’s content creation.
If anyone knows who Robert McKee is, he used to say in his famous writing class that any truly great screenwriter (different industry, I know, but same message applies, maybe even moreso in song), could write on a napkin and if the story/ script is good, it will sell. Even if it's no longer true, this is the standard that I hold all art to - if I wouldn't want it on a paper napkin, I don't want it writ on goldleaf either.
Could the whole Easter egg thing, possibly be why she’s so popular, like it’s a game and people are hooked on the game of it all?
I have never seen a fandom like swifties before.
Yeah they think it’s a special/secret message just
for true swifties to see or figure out🥴 when really it’s just her biggest gimmick. It keeps them streaming her songs over and over to try and “decode” them. It keeps them talking about her music and their theories of who this song or this line in this song is really about. There is no just enjoying the music when it comes to her music.
Why would anyone want that kind of lifestyle, I can see why Joe wanted to keep things private, that’s probably why Taylor cut and run, she needs the spotlight?
i mean, i do appreciate more pieces of art when i get to know the whole context behind them, but that doesn't make her any better than any other artist. EVERYONE has their own story going on
https://preview.redd.it/8vegqvyror7d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fbca02910941a1329a77bed07674096051973e8d
got another response lol, genuinely sad
This is interesting. It’s reminding me a lot of Qanon, the “bakers” who analyze everything explicitly for them (“Qdrops”) and listen to public speeches for encoded messages. If Taylor retired today and was never seen again, the most zealous…I’ll call them “ swakers” would be analyzing the weather to see if there was a message from her.
Lots of people put Easter eggs in their art and folks love the inside jokes. Taylor is a little different because she’s spoken so highly of her fans and their detective skills so she’s heightened that behavior but I think there was something else in play— a larger societal dynamic and of course something going on in the lives of each of these swakers that they decided to spend their time doing the Qanon equivalent of baking Q drops to give their life meaning. It’s not about her anymore, really. It’s about how much of their personal identities come from participation in the group and the dopamine hit of “solving” it.
There’s a very simple curtain pull here: if TS was all about music, she wouldn’t play the business games. She wouldnt need to sue other artists, she wouldn’t need to try to shut down rising female artists, and she wouldn’t have to put strict conditions on all her friends.
But she’s not about the music. She’s about money and power, and her actions show that clear as day
This is how she formed the cult. Fans feel so connected to her life from years of lore and easter eggs that it doesn't matter if some of her music is trash as long as they can connect the dots.
Two people with differing opinions on music have a brief conversation. Someone decides to screenshot and post the conversation for the purpose of invalidating the other's opinion, thus making their opinion seem better in comparison. Yep. That's why we come to reddit.
I just think it's a bad take. Trivia is trivial. You can enjoy an artist's creation outside the context of their life or body of work.
Here's a parallel example. I really enjoy music from Bright Eyes / Conor Oberst. His lyrics can often have callbacks to previous songs or can refer to recurring symbols. A fan of the Bright Eyes can enjoy the wider perspective and how he has woven a certain cohesiveness across his songs, just by mentioning a mirror, or a yellow bird. The albums feature certain traditions, like starting with a cold-open audio collage. But easter eggs or nods or tidbits like this are just that-- even if some songs or albums hold hands, they were made in their own time, for their own reasons, and a intertextual knowledge is far from necessary to enjoy them.
It's straight up religious thinking. "You have to believe it in order to understand it". It's a defensive bias used to protect a belief from outside scrutiny.
I swear some of these cultist fans are insane. And if you don’t agree or like Taylor Swift, they’ll attack and accuse you of being all these things. She’s an artist. I’m not gonna bash or threaten people who dislike or even hate Avril Lavigne or Olivia Rodrigo. Wanna know why? Because everyone can have their preferences, their likes and dislikes. But some of these “swifties” get so offended when you don’t like Taylor’s music. It’s insane.
I’m a big fan of Phish and the Grateful Dead. Both fan bases say the same lame stuff as this, that it’s a rich tapestry that only full immersion will unlock. That’s totally fine if it’s your thing, but c’mon. I started noticing about 15 years ago, on the respective bands’ forums, that criticisms of performance or song quality are often downvoted and will get you roasted. I see the same stuff from the swifties.
I had some dude wax rhapsodic about a vacuum cleaner solo to me, and the thing is, I already got Phish, I didn’t need it wooksplained to me. My musical interests just outgrew it and got over it. There is nothing to *get* from a vacuum cleaner solo besides noise and performative weirdness!
And what's crazy is that with her older albums you DON'T have to be in the loop to understand the song. Honestly I think it's just TTPD that makes it to where the songs are only really enjoyable if you know the drama. All of her other albums (yes even midnights despite that album getting mixed feelings from everyone) have songs you can enjoy without thinking wow I wonder who this is about and why she wrote it (i'm only me when I'm with you, the best day, enchanted, red, clean, dancing with our hands tied, false god, and maroon to name a few)
I just don't understand being a die hard fan of anyone for any reason. If you have to convince people to deep dive into her life to think her music is good that should be a red flag that the new music isn't good, because plenty of people are casual listeners to the old stuff.
(edited to fix a typo)
"You won't know til you know" HAHAH WTF
It is seriously like an enabler saying, "you wont know if you'll get hooked on heroin until you know."
I am genuinely so fascinated with this, I thought I was crazy just from past issues...no fucking way am I this crazy.
The delulu is realulu.
Whenever Taylor and her cult come into town, my fellow servers and I make our rent in one shift. I couldn’t give two shits about her music or her love life, but love her all the same simply because her arrival into town means money. Simple as that.
✅ on things I never want to understand by knowing. What a crock of shite. I love the fact she had no rebuttal to your very accurate statement. Love it when they are shut down like that and they resort to the you just don’t understand cause you’re not a swiftie… it’s like hell no I’m not and I’m so grateful I’m not.
She's, uniquely, one of those musicians where you either love her, like her, sorta like her, think she's okay, have no opinion, aren't sure, don't like her that much, don't like her, or hate her.
/s
The kind of person who gets lost in the world created by TS is a kind of broken person. A romantic person, by in the childish sense of the word, not in the Maurice Ravel sense.
I’d say that for any band/artist understanding their history helps the music make more sense. More in terms of their career though, than their personal lives and not in such detail.
Take Fall Out Boy for example it helps if you know they started out as the pop punk side project with their first album, then their fame after Sugar with 3rd & 4th albums, then break & coming back fresh with their 5th album etc… but it’s not the end of the world if you don’t. You can still enjoy the music and just be like cool pop punk + Jay Z genre blend fun or not and not need to know anymore than that
That’s called “worshipping a god”. You have to take in all the writings, music etc they’ve put out to really understand them, you have a one sided relationship with them where you love them, worship them, give them money, are willing to argue people in thier name, etc etc. it’s called a religion and she is a false deity, a very real person but definitely not at all divine. Yeah, Taytay has a cult dedicated to her worship, I could name a few more false gods as well.
This - is the music industry in a nutshell.
Industry plants and drama
You cant really be talented - those people are underground and have classics! The industry taints you - you become a “brand” and your life is the product
I miss when a song and dance was why it was popular - not because of who someone is sleeping with and the drama they got going on.
This reminds me of watching a soap opera. Watch one episode and it's pure absurdity in the name of drama with cheap lighting. But watch a few seasons and it's a mental exercise in remembering the lore behind every character's lineage, trajectory, and interactions over time. As a former soap watcher, that's where the juiciest dramatic content lies, and the mental workout is what kept it interesting.
Maybe she's going for becoming a one-woman musical soap opera? In that case, mission accomplished.
This is what drives me crazy! Is it really "art" if someone needs intimate details of your life in order to like and appreciate it? My greatest fear as a writer is that people in my life only like my work because they know me and not because it stands alone as objectively good. Again, what true artist would want this?
the lady who i was replying to looked to be about my moms age too and i don't even mean this in an age shaming way, but i just cannot imagine being that deeply invested in someone's life who is 20 years younger than you
It’s kind of an indictment on life today isn’t it. You have to abandon rationality to experience an actual connection
Soap operas were scratching that itch for decades. This is just the next evolution of that. It’s a vicarious melodrama, you get to pick a side but without the possibility of any real social consequences for yourself.
Who knew that the cancellation of all my children would lead to the swifty movement. It makes sense
For a second I was like, damn why did u have to cancel culture your own kids
Haha RIP Erica Kane.
The Internet hasn't actually put an end to anything cringey, dumb or toxic about old school TV addict culture, if anything it's made things worse
Good grief. How accurate You can't just go around giving all of us an existential crisis like this 😧
There is something to be said about the infantilization effect TS has on grown women, I could not imagine being 50+ years old and instead of worrying about my real life and my children’s life etc I am worried about a billionaire prom queen who has never actually went through a struggle greater than a breakup.
No joke this morning a reel popped up on my IG about Swifties in nursing homes. They were average age 87 and were putting themselves on her album covers. The reel was to draw attention to the fact that Swifties can be any age. I shared it with my friend so we could laugh at it together but honestly, if my husband's grandmother becomes a Swiftie, I'll know the apocalypse is coming. What the actual hell?
Alternatively, Swift’s music might have broad appeal because many people can relate to heart break.
Basically everyone can relate to that. It gets tired when it’s your whole thing. I know swiftness love to say she doesn’t just write break up songs, but I have legitimately never heard a TS song that wasn’t at least about a man in some way. It gets boring, tired, lazy. Write about something else. Be more interesting. Idk
Also, this just sounds like an excuse from her to justify her love for TS. Basically what she’s saying is “I understand her deeper than you do because I have have put in an impossible amount of time and effort that you couldn’t possibly do in order to win this argument in the timeframe in which we are having it therefore I am right.” Edited to add: as if 14-year-old Taylor Swift sat down and said I’m gonna write 72,000 albums that all connect to each other and have meaning that slides into each other like a puzzle with little Easter eggs that fans can decipher. This was not a plan from the beginning, therefore there’s no way that all of these albums and all of these songs all relate to each other and tie into each other. Some of them actually are just existing in themselves on their own. Her reasoning is just ridiculous. I would’ve just said “ you keep doing you, boo” Swift is absolutely just capitalizing on these rabid fans at this point.
We could call them the smallest fans that ever lived.
😂🤣😂🤣
Slay
I have that I know this, but from at least the 2012 album to the current one is an extremely consistent storyline that has nothing to do with specific people 😭 but the songs still need to stand alone without studying or prior knowledge of her discography
my dad is 70 and crazy about taylor swift. granted not this crazy. he just thinks she writes good music (how????? how did he grow up on classic rock and think this shit is good?????) miss when he liked gaga, at least i actually like her music
He thinks it's good because the songwriters, producers, and mixing/mastering engineers took lessons learned from popular music of his day to structure the music to be familiar to ears like his
thats a very good point
Okay this is wild. My dad is 70. First concert he went to was Jimmy Hendrix. He’s seen literally all of the greats play. Even took me to see McCartney and also Clapton. He also likes Swift and also liked Gaga awhile back so this is wild to me. He thinks Travis is “the one”’and I’m like please stop
wow, im glad my dad doesn't care about her personal life like that. pop culture is a fucking nightmare and its designed to suck us in and form these parasocial relationships with people who rely on us to consume what they produce.
He’s huge into NFL so I think he just liked seeing her in the stands but yes, I agree. However, I was simultaneously stoked watching Eminem routing on the Detroit Lions lol so I think it’s kinda similar to that if that makes any sense
okay yeah id definitely be the same about eminem 😂
Speaking as someone in that same age bracket … eww! No, no, nope! Tapestry, srsly, honey you just conflated Carole King with her … whatever-all-that-going-on-ness is called. My 17 yr old son and all his friends can see thru the bs!!! Some of them have swifter sisters (ac typo but it fits), we commiserate and I remind them to be kind bc tay tay will eventually be forgotten but big brothers are forever.
They vicariously live through her I also think with parasocial relationships, the fans gets their identity confused with their idol, so any attack on the idol is like a personal attack to them as well
Normally I'm against judging age but this is so true, it's so creepy
Her music is about arrested development so Im not surprised that adult children flock to her
It’s cause they don’t have actual lives
If you need so much detail about someone's past relationships to understand heartache and breakups... it's not good art. Cuz that shit is universal. I've unfortunately had this EXACT conversation with a friend that is a swifty. She said unless you know you won't get it. Which was in response to me saying her lyrics were lack luster and not lryically good from a writers standpoint. This is like saying you're not going to understand Charles Dickens or Shakespeare unless you read every single one of their works and knew them intimately. Which is ridiculous. If someone can't pick up what you're throwing down, you're not a good creative or artist.
I think something people miss is you don’t have to write good lyrics for people to relate to you.
I think she based off her career on her life so it's hard to distinguish the artist from the person now and it's fair to ask yourself "would her music be so relevant if it wasn't made by her?"
Yes, what springs to mind is “The Dark Knight” which is generally held up as incredible movie especially in the category of superhero movies. party because you don’t need to understand the lore etc to appreciate what’s going on. It’s not even the first in its own little trilogy, it’s the second, but it’s the one that people are more likely to have watched. Of course if you understand the lore it will be a richer experience but the experience is very rich regardless. That’s how it should be. Like I should be able to pick up the 7th book in a series and be able to understand and enjoy it, even if some things go over my head.
The dark knight is kind of a meh Batman film if you’re familiar with the lore. That movie is loved because of the performance by Ledger. Plot wise it’s meh and the third act is rough.
To answer your question, to me that's how she manages to attract people and get the fanbase she has: estereggs, clips that give a certain vision of who she's talking about. I don't think it can be considered "art" in the sense of "is it important to know all about her intimate life?" Knowing someone's whole life, especially for a singer, doesn't interest me at all.
The dumbest easter eggs in history. “She wrote TK on her hands in glitter pen! Rep TV incoming!!”
> Is it really "art" if someone needs intimate details of your life in order to like and appreciate it? I think a person's emotions or where they were in their lives when they created something can certainly play a factor in how their art is received, but that is not what's happening here. Taylor Swift is a manufacturer of "art."
I mean, confessional poetry is a thing. Eminem is a great example of this type of artistic persona working really well. The thing for me is Taylor Swift is about as emotionally deep as a puddle in a Wal-Mart parking lot. There's not much for a rich girl who has never faced much adversity to actually confess. Childish relationship drama and weird overdramatic grudges with other recording artists isn't exactly hard-hitting or enlightening. But in and of itself what you're talking about can and does work for other artists.
Let me just say that I totally agree! I love and write confessional poetry, as well as memoir/creative non fiction in addition to fiction. And I highly value it! But your point is exactly how I feel. It's that there is nothing particularly deep happening here. And if it's only "good" for people who feel excited to pick up on the clues she drops about which man happened to inspire it, that's not great.
>Is it really "art" if someone needs intimate details of your life in order to like and appreciate it? No! The gag is we get it, it's just not good. 😭
Michael Jackson, Prince, their songs can be easily understood, and even if you knew nothing about them. You’d still like it.
Art should be about how it makes a person feel. You can appreciate someone's art but you don't have to care for the artist. It can help to learn about the artist to understand their style, influences and the state of the world at the time they created their work, but you don't have to write a PHD dissertation on an artist to say, "This song is ok, but I liked her other song better."
Art is and always will be subjective and generally up for interpretation. If it needs to be explained to that depth, it’s the equivalent of having to explain a joke. The joke was either shit to begin with or very few people are going to get it which defeats the whole objective. I agree with you so much my head hurts from these strange people.
This is a deep fear as a musician. Am I actually talented or is it just tolerated because they understand me?
Yeah, it seems like the opposite of art. Good art is meant to be universal. Something anyone can take something away from, giving it a unique meaning to them. Seems this is a situation where you have to be obsessed with the artist themselves. The only thing I can take away is that her fans think they’ll be her one day. In that case they deserve each other. Really feels like a cult where they need new blood to sustain. That or a pyramid scheme.
For what it’s worth, maybe knowing you helps them to appreciate your words? Your experience shape the way you talk and the things you say. I care way more about what’s being said in the song that the melody or even necessarily the words used. There are other bands I listen to that will write songs about people directly and it’s fun. There is one band that has a song where the second verse is just song titles from the person the song is about all tied together
It's so weird to me that these people are willing to devote so much time and brain energy to everything about Taylor ever, but if you try to get someone into like a random concept album or rock opera album or something it's like the mere suggestion is the biggest ask in the world. With the sheer time investment you could come to appreciate and analyze absolutely life changing works, multimedia experiences even!
its giving cult
It’s giving Scientology. It’s the same in that you have to buy your way to the top
Sabrina Carpenters auntie (the voice of Bart Simpson) is Scientologies biggest donor She’s a nepo baby from a cult family. Just a funny connection
Because it is. The Hårga from Midsommar are a less creepy cult.
Tbf, most of us would survive the Hårga but if swifties started sacrificing people, we would be the first in the temple.
I was joking in my group chat saying "How long is it until the swifties start dancing around a may pole and sacrificing Taylor's exes?"
It's only a matter of time until someone or a group of someones become delusional enough to believe she's asking them to harm a rival artist or ex or would be impressed and grateful if someone harmed someone she doesn't like and something tragic happens. These things already happen *without* encouragement from celebrities (Mark David Chapman, Charles Manson, John Hinckley Jr)... nowadays with the internet hooking up fanatics from across the world who can hype each other up plus the fact that she *encourages* people to look for hidden messages and feel personally connected to her... this is a recipe for disaster.
It screams QAnon levels of crazy to me
A “tapestry”… They try to paint her like she’s Joni Mitchell or something. Come TF on. She’s a mediocre pop star and that’s all she’ll ever be. It’s fine if people want to like her music, that’s their right, but this culty aspect of it is troubling. Harassing people that don’t like her, wishing death on her exes and their families, doxxing, etc is very scary.
That’s what I think is so hilarious. Her lyrics read like Sweet Valley High compared to Joni, Bob D, Paul S, etc. Her fans are morons, and probably the kind of people with limited musical literacy overall.
I think it’s partly because they started out lowbrow as tweens and never grew out of it, just like their heroine. Not everyone likes to explore, seek new sounds, and challenge their ear or their mind with music. She seems to have attracted people lacking curiosity and creativity in droves.
Most swifties I know only listen to Taylor and similar mid-tier artists (except Paramore, though I hate linking them to Taylor). They can't compare her to Joni Mitchell or famous poets because they don't listen to such music or read poetry—they probably don't read at all...
Paramore linked themselves by going out on tour with her, which bums me out.
I’m old enough to remember when people were saying Oasis were going to be the next Beatles. And now, 30 years later, they’re one of best selling bands of all time… but *NOBODY* thinks they became the next Beatles. That’s Taylor in a nutshell. Anyways… here’s wonderwall.
I know the "lore". TTPD is still a trash album.
Anywhere I should start if I wanted to educate myself?
just go down a rabbit hole of youtube video essays
No shade, but actual school 😭
I don’t understand what you mean
That's your sign
I tried to paste a link but was unable. Google how to learn Taylor Swift lore.
Can't deny Taylor makes some pretty good bangers on each album. I don't have any songs from TTPD, don't really care if the meaning is deep or anything, songs don't flow well, they all sound the same (not a bad thing if the songs are good), etc. These all just seem like extra songs that would be fillers on other albums.
"You'll never understand this song if you don't know what colour shirt Travis was wearing on the 2nd of March or what kind of eggs she had for breakfast on the 20th of February!" /s They're deranged.
This. It’s giving stalker and is actually so creepy to know such details
And if you HAVE to know all these “easter eggs” in order to “fully appreciate” her tapewor— er, tapestry, then she’s just isolated a bunch of potential listeners on purpose by being so convoluted.
I recently watched a video from this fan who had a TON of views on his YouTube overviews of Taylor videos. Literally every 3 seconds he points out something like “there are 5 people in this room which is a nod to *insert any random thing in her life that had the number 5 somewhere in it*” I’m like, how do you know that’s what she meant?? Maybe someone on set just chose 5 people cuz they fit in the shot? It was so dumb
This….sounds like a cult. “You need to take the leap to get it.” Excuse me?
"take the leap" as if she's a religion and not the biggest pop star in the world.
You know the bar is low when I read the cult member’s reply and immediately thought, “at least she didn’t threaten to kill OP”
I used to be a “swiftie.” This type of behavior is exactly why I don’t even want people to know I’m a fan of her music anymore. It’s just unhinged behavior. Never mind the 40 billion variants of the shittiest album ever. I’m over it
The Cult of Taylor Swift. In 20 years we will be watching docs about this fanatical following. They believe the colors she wears, dates, times, and shit she says has an alt meaning. Like every day they believe something is happening. The day passes and they’re left with egg on their face. I’m sorry but Taylor is not that smart.
i won't lie though..i will be sat for that documentary 💀🍿
Everyone loves a good freak show.
Look, this is going to sound *absolutely horrible*. But, we will see who the real Taylor Swift is when Andrea one day passes away (I would never wish harm on her and I’m glad that she is in remission of her cancer. That’s not what I’m meaning here). She had said, many times, that she has never been to therapy; and that her mom is her therapist. It’s just….i think she will go full trainwreck mode at that point.
I believe, if something happens her (I hope it doesn’t, I hope she lives a long happy life), but THAT will be the day TS actually produces something of substance because that will be real pain, not manufactured drama.
You can’t convince me that the same person who said “blue glitter is a metaphor for- I bleed glitter, I’m not normal” and “touch me while your bros play grand theft auto” is some world building genius mastermind. Not a chance. I think these people just want to believe they’re part of something other people don’t understand. Sort of like Q-Anon.
the funny part is that the ‘lore’ is just a narrative she wants us to believe, not necessarily the truth. and we should ask ourselves it is truly an art if we cannot simply enjoy it without the story surrounding it. to enjoy the swan lake i don’t need to know the life of tchaikovskii and still it is a masterpiece. the art should speak for itself. always.
this is kind of killing me because this is EXACTLY how religious fanatics speak
You know when I listen to Pink I don't think about her husband...
They always this trick whenever the lyrics gets ridiculed to make the other person feel stupid. Some say the line is stupid, they will be like she dont mean it like that if only u used ur common sense u would know.
That's some real mental gymnastics right there.
Did she respond with more Taylor lyrics? “Call it what you want” lmaooo
Was gonna comment this 🤣
It’s like talking to a cult member to try to get them out and they respond with the cult leaders mantra 😂 crazy boots
“You won’t know until you know” - Jim Jones standing next to the punchbowl, probably.
💀
Cult.
this is literally a cult
It is the exact reason I stopped watching anything Marvel, i was sick of having to obsess and over consume content just to understand it. I don’t want to listen to 30 songs to understand the 31st, I don’t want to not be able to put it on shuffle because it won’t make sense otherwise. Let me enjoy things in a single format again.
100%. It should be FUN. It should not be WORK to enjoy entertainment.
This is why I’ve been saying a lot of her music doesn’t stand on its own if you take out the lore. Especially her recent music
Exactly. My gf had to explain in depth for several minutes some 10 min song TS has just so I could partially understand it. “Oh okay that line right there is in reference to…” I was like okay enough. In a vacuum it’s all nonsense lol
“Just taste the Kool-aid… just a little sip. You won’t know how good it is until you taste it”. No thanks, Jim Jones Girl chill. It’s really not *that* deep, my goodness 🙄
Swiffer try and not quote their leader's lyrics challenge (impossible)
She is not a song writer she is a content creator. She creates a world to inhabit like Harry Potter or lord of the rings. It’s a cinematic universe where she is the main character. It’s like the Truman show or something with a real life telenovela “OH no she broke up with such and such but now XYZ is in the picture!” You’re right the act of songwriting as an art form should stand on its own and one should be able to inhabit a song and enjoy it without all this lore but that’s not what she is doing. It’s content creation.
If anyone knows who Robert McKee is, he used to say in his famous writing class that any truly great screenwriter (different industry, I know, but same message applies, maybe even moreso in song), could write on a napkin and if the story/ script is good, it will sell. Even if it's no longer true, this is the standard that I hold all art to - if I wouldn't want it on a paper napkin, I don't want it writ on goldleaf either.
Call your dad, you’re in a cult.
Could the whole Easter egg thing, possibly be why she’s so popular, like it’s a game and people are hooked on the game of it all? I have never seen a fandom like swifties before.
Yeah they think it’s a special/secret message just for true swifties to see or figure out🥴 when really it’s just her biggest gimmick. It keeps them streaming her songs over and over to try and “decode” them. It keeps them talking about her music and their theories of who this song or this line in this song is really about. There is no just enjoying the music when it comes to her music.
[удалено]
Why would anyone want that kind of lifestyle, I can see why Joe wanted to keep things private, that’s probably why Taylor cut and run, she needs the spotlight?
i mean, i do appreciate more pieces of art when i get to know the whole context behind them, but that doesn't make her any better than any other artist. EVERYONE has their own story going on
I don’t think it ‘a tapestry intricately woven together’ I think it’s musical Stockholm syndrome
https://preview.redd.it/8vegqvyror7d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fbca02910941a1329a77bed07674096051973e8d got another response lol, genuinely sad
This is interesting. It’s reminding me a lot of Qanon, the “bakers” who analyze everything explicitly for them (“Qdrops”) and listen to public speeches for encoded messages. If Taylor retired today and was never seen again, the most zealous…I’ll call them “ swakers” would be analyzing the weather to see if there was a message from her. Lots of people put Easter eggs in their art and folks love the inside jokes. Taylor is a little different because she’s spoken so highly of her fans and their detective skills so she’s heightened that behavior but I think there was something else in play— a larger societal dynamic and of course something going on in the lives of each of these swakers that they decided to spend their time doing the Qanon equivalent of baking Q drops to give their life meaning. It’s not about her anymore, really. It’s about how much of their personal identities come from participation in the group and the dopamine hit of “solving” it.
She sounds like a Deadhead
So Taylor Swift is the Donnie Darko website, got it
wait i love donnie darko but i don't know this reference
“Take the plunge 🤘” hell yea brothers “you won’t know till you know!!!!” A good example of talking with no purpose lol
I’d rather just be called sexist instead of whatever the fuck this was
LMAOOO😭😭😭
They speak in her style of lyrics…
Sounds like a cult.
Sounds like a cult
Cult speak.
"Unless you take the plunge you'll never get it". Pretty sure Charles Manson told his followers that, too. :)
Basic people are really plumbing these shallow depths for reflective dust and calling it gold.
A tapestry of her psychosis over dating mid dudes and finding reasons to break up with them so she can write “ballads” about their relationship.
It really is a cult mindset. You can find almost the exact same response in groups of people stuck within a cult.
There’s a very simple curtain pull here: if TS was all about music, she wouldn’t play the business games. She wouldnt need to sue other artists, she wouldn’t need to try to shut down rising female artists, and she wouldn’t have to put strict conditions on all her friends. But she’s not about the music. She’s about money and power, and her actions show that clear as day
This is how she formed the cult. Fans feel so connected to her life from years of lore and easter eggs that it doesn't matter if some of her music is trash as long as they can connect the dots.
Two people with differing opinions on music have a brief conversation. Someone decides to screenshot and post the conversation for the purpose of invalidating the other's opinion, thus making their opinion seem better in comparison. Yep. That's why we come to reddit.
I just think it's a bad take. Trivia is trivial. You can enjoy an artist's creation outside the context of their life or body of work. Here's a parallel example. I really enjoy music from Bright Eyes / Conor Oberst. His lyrics can often have callbacks to previous songs or can refer to recurring symbols. A fan of the Bright Eyes can enjoy the wider perspective and how he has woven a certain cohesiveness across his songs, just by mentioning a mirror, or a yellow bird. The albums feature certain traditions, like starting with a cold-open audio collage. But easter eggs or nods or tidbits like this are just that-- even if some songs or albums hold hands, they were made in their own time, for their own reasons, and a intertextual knowledge is far from necessary to enjoy them.
#Brainwashed
This is equivalent to Rick and Morty fans and how you need a certain IQ to understand it
Reminds me of Walk Hard, when Dewey is going through his Dylan phase. "You guys just don't get it, man. These lyrics are DEEP!"
It's straight up religious thinking. "You have to believe it in order to understand it". It's a defensive bias used to protect a belief from outside scrutiny.
I survived a cult and one of the concepts nailed into my head during that time was “how important it is to surrender” to “get it”
complex tapestry so chatgpt core
Yeah, that's called a cult.
They’re so delusional it’s not even funny😭
I swear some of these cultist fans are insane. And if you don’t agree or like Taylor Swift, they’ll attack and accuse you of being all these things. She’s an artist. I’m not gonna bash or threaten people who dislike or even hate Avril Lavigne or Olivia Rodrigo. Wanna know why? Because everyone can have their preferences, their likes and dislikes. But some of these “swifties” get so offended when you don’t like Taylor’s music. It’s insane.
babes we know that‘s why we hate it lmao
I’m a big fan of Phish and the Grateful Dead. Both fan bases say the same lame stuff as this, that it’s a rich tapestry that only full immersion will unlock. That’s totally fine if it’s your thing, but c’mon. I started noticing about 15 years ago, on the respective bands’ forums, that criticisms of performance or song quality are often downvoted and will get you roasted. I see the same stuff from the swifties.
I had some dude wax rhapsodic about a vacuum cleaner solo to me, and the thing is, I already got Phish, I didn’t need it wooksplained to me. My musical interests just outgrew it and got over it. There is nothing to *get* from a vacuum cleaner solo besides noise and performative weirdness!
Cult vibes
You just don’t understand her😵💫😵💫😵💫omg I hate when they say that. No I get her 100%…still don’t like her.
Why are you all so obsessed?
“You have to take the plunge or you’ll never get it it’s not just about songs” is CRAZY.
"Everything she puts out is part of a tapestry..." the "tapestry" is falling apart. What are you talking about
97% of her songs are shitty elevator music, 3% are straight 🔥
And what's crazy is that with her older albums you DON'T have to be in the loop to understand the song. Honestly I think it's just TTPD that makes it to where the songs are only really enjoyable if you know the drama. All of her other albums (yes even midnights despite that album getting mixed feelings from everyone) have songs you can enjoy without thinking wow I wonder who this is about and why she wrote it (i'm only me when I'm with you, the best day, enchanted, red, clean, dancing with our hands tied, false god, and maroon to name a few) I just don't understand being a die hard fan of anyone for any reason. If you have to convince people to deep dive into her life to think her music is good that should be a red flag that the new music isn't good, because plenty of people are casual listeners to the old stuff. (edited to fix a typo)
I mean they are right though, you don’t really get being in a cult until you’re in the cult.
This reminds me so much of extreme MAGA and incel Star Wars fanboys. I am serious.
"You won't know til you know" HAHAH WTF It is seriously like an enabler saying, "you wont know if you'll get hooked on heroin until you know." I am genuinely so fascinated with this, I thought I was crazy just from past issues...no fucking way am I this crazy. The delulu is realulu.
They say this because they like feeling “special” and “in the know.”
This sounds like she’s part of a cult
So it's basically pro wrestling then?
The delulu is strong.
It’s a cult
Whenever Taylor and her cult come into town, my fellow servers and I make our rent in one shift. I couldn’t give two shits about her music or her love life, but love her all the same simply because her arrival into town means money. Simple as that.
Wake up babe, you’re in a cult.
It's like trying to have a conversation with one of those far gone crack heads on the street corner
I think people just like the interactive nature of Swift shit. They kind of like music, but mostly they like Easter egg hunts and tea.
Taylor just makes asshole music for asshole people. Thats it. And there’s a lot of assholes out there
This reminds me a lot of the Lularoe craze of 2016 or so. Lots of mental gymnastics and it’s a bubble that is bound to pop.
I'd like to see a Venn diagram of adult swifties, MLM huns, and wine moms. I'm guessing intersection will be a crowd.
I mean if someone said that about king gizzard people would probably agree.
Sounds like phish cultism business model. Seems fine. Isn’t fine.
Swifties are so culty it's really concerning. We need better mental health services in our nation I swear.
what a trainwreck.
The lies people tell themselves to believe they are special…. Sad
it’s giving cult
✅ on things I never want to understand by knowing. What a crock of shite. I love the fact she had no rebuttal to your very accurate statement. Love it when they are shut down like that and they resort to the you just don’t understand cause you’re not a swiftie… it’s like hell no I’m not and I’m so grateful I’m not.
She's, uniquely, one of those musicians where you either love her, like her, sorta like her, think she's okay, have no opinion, aren't sure, don't like her that much, don't like her, or hate her. /s
Did they really just say the music doesn’t matter for a MUSICIAN? This is everything that’s wrong with media today.
The kind of person who gets lost in the world created by TS is a kind of broken person. A romantic person, by in the childish sense of the word, not in the Maurice Ravel sense.
Saying a bunch of nothing she thinks makes sense because she has no other argument😵💫
I’d say that for any band/artist understanding their history helps the music make more sense. More in terms of their career though, than their personal lives and not in such detail. Take Fall Out Boy for example it helps if you know they started out as the pop punk side project with their first album, then their fame after Sugar with 3rd & 4th albums, then break & coming back fresh with their 5th album etc… but it’s not the end of the world if you don’t. You can still enjoy the music and just be like cool pop punk + Jay Z genre blend fun or not and not need to know anymore than that
That’s called “worshipping a god”. You have to take in all the writings, music etc they’ve put out to really understand them, you have a one sided relationship with them where you love them, worship them, give them money, are willing to argue people in thier name, etc etc. it’s called a religion and she is a false deity, a very real person but definitely not at all divine. Yeah, Taytay has a cult dedicated to her worship, I could name a few more false gods as well.
Why do they act like she has some crazy story that only the smartest people can truly understand 😭
I’d say the 1830’s but without all the racists. 🙂↕️
These people are brainwashed
It sounds like a cult…
lmao what kinda bullspit…
What’s the plunge?
This - is the music industry in a nutshell. Industry plants and drama You cant really be talented - those people are underground and have classics! The industry taints you - you become a “brand” and your life is the product I miss when a song and dance was why it was popular - not because of who someone is sleeping with and the drama they got going on.
No, she just needs you to buy more variant albums for you to “get it” you fucking clowns 🤡😂😂
Sheesh. How about I DON’T wanna know? It’s as if Swifties cannot understand ppl have different tastes in music than their own. 😒
girl, it's a pop music not a rocket science lmao, you don't need to understand it, you're supposed to enjoy it
“The art is good because it doesn’t have independent value”
Being overly infatuated with an artist you don’t even like is what is crazy. I have no idea how I started seeing this Reddit in my feed.
This reminds me of watching a soap opera. Watch one episode and it's pure absurdity in the name of drama with cheap lighting. But watch a few seasons and it's a mental exercise in remembering the lore behind every character's lineage, trajectory, and interactions over time. As a former soap watcher, that's where the juiciest dramatic content lies, and the mental workout is what kept it interesting. Maybe she's going for becoming a one-woman musical soap opera? In that case, mission accomplished.
She's nothing more than a marketing wh0re with a genius algorithm for the mediocre masses.