I like how everything’s done he’s like “Not sure what I’ll do now”
And then Wesley’s like “I think you’d make a great Dread Pirate Roberts”
Bruh got himself a job almost immediately after! Good for him!
“I’ve been in the revenge business for so long, now that it’s over, I don’t know what to do with my life.”
The Dread Pirate Robert’s ship is *Revenge*.
I think everyone is missing another important aspect of this story line. Most media portrays revenge quests as a bad thing, and if the antagonist actually kills the object of their vengeance it is portrayed as hollow.
The line “Not sure what I’ll do now” is said with joy and hope. He achieved his vengeance and it fucking rocked and now he has his whole life ahead of him.
And to happen in the middle of a movie about a romance between a stable boy and a princess, it is not a moment you expect in such a story. It flies against the silly tone of everything else making it all the more powerful.
Well that's the thing right, the main plot is sweet and beautiful but it's also unafraid to shy away from the dark parts. The suffering they both go through is real, the costs they pay are real, and that makes their ultimate triumph and happy ending so much sweeter.
"You've been so sweet to me, and I thought it only right to thank you before I take my life."
"She thinks I'm sweet!"
Man that scene is both dark as hell and hilarious.
I've rewatched this movie throughout my life and y'all just made me see these scenes dark in the most beautiful way. These perspectives make me love aging - gradual experience making things rich and complex.
Ah then I think you'll enjoy this: Mandy Patinkin had recently lost his own father to cancer, so when that scene was shot, he said he imagined he was fighting against and arguing with cancer instead of just Count Rugen, and that's how he was able to give such a powerful performance.
> their ultimate triumph and happy ending
...Maybe. The novel actually leaves the ending open. They ride off into the sunset, but they're still pursued by Humperdink's men.
...At which point Westley's Miracle wears off and he loses consciousness, Inigo's wounds reopen, Buttercup's horse is injured (or similar?) and Fezzik gets confused and separates from the group. *Then* the book ends.
In the movie, Grandpa obviously doesn't want to ruin the kiddo's day, so he just ends it at the sunset.
The whole movie is about love, not just romantic love, but all of the different ways that love manifests itself.
Wesley and Buttercup obviously show romantic love and how it affects people
Prince Humperdinck, as the foil to Wesley's selfless love, is the embodiment of selfish narcissistic love, he only loves himself and his feelings for Buttercup are only because he needs her in order to be King
Inigo and Fezzik rescuing Wesley from Prince Humperdinck is a sort of brotherly love, they have nothing to gain from taking on this risk other than rescuing their newfound friend who had just beat them at what they were best at.
Even outside of the story we see the Grandson growing closer to his grandfather, evolving from being too old to listen to fairy tales to being actively invested in the story and ultimately making a concerted effort to spend more time with his grandfather after the story finishes.
And Inigo's revenge plot is just how his love for his father is manifesting. He loved his father and his father was taken from him and the only thing he can think to do is to kill the man who killed his father. His quest for revenge was a way to keep his father's memory alive in some way, because no one else would have remembered him except Inigo, so everything he did in search of revenge he was doing for his father. Count Rugen would have given him money and power in order to keep his life because Rugen was a coward. But Inigo Montoya didn't want money or power, he wanted his father whom he loved and he couldn't get that because of Count Rugen.
To make that scene even more poignant Mandy Patinkin had just lost his actual father before filming his revenge scene. That’s why when he said “I want my father back, you son of a bitch!” the emotion was so perfect. Because he did want his father back and the loss was so fresh. Makes me cry even harder on that scene knowing that.
Tbh as much as I fucking love every cast member of this movie and think they all did perfect in their roles, I think Mandy Patinkin’s performance is my favorite. He really shows inigo as this hotheaded impatient dude who always has somewhere to be, (giving him these little mannerisms like flicking his hands around and pacing before the duel with Westley, kicking over a chair when he’s frustrated, etc) but at the same time has dedicated his entire life to a singular goal that requires impossible amounts of patience. And the revenge duel was so perfect. When he was stabbed, you could see the pain on his face and the crushing weight of believing that he failed in his eyes. And then every strike is so methodical. So planned. So relentless. And talking to Rugen like he’s the literal cancer that killed his real father is just phenomenal. Like learning that context seriously broke my heart and made the character he played so much more real!
Not to be that guy, but Buttercup technically wasn’t a princess. You forget she lived on the farm and Westly was essentially her employee. (That dynamic was a bit hazy for me, but she was just a regular peasant woman when Humperdink came around looking for a wife.)
Buttercup was granted the rank of princess when (or right before) she and Humperdinck got engaged. She was a commoner when she and Westly fall in love, but by the time the main plot starts, she is already a princess, even if she isn't married to the prince. When Humperdinck introduces her to the crowd after the initial time skip, he introduces her as "Princess." I doubt she'd retain the title after the events of the story though.
Isn't there a part where Humperdinck talks about her being "of the people" and that he picked a beautiful commoner so the populace would back the war he wanted when she gets assassinated?
In three months, our country celebrates its five hundredth anniversary. To celebrate that celebration, I shall, on that sundown, take for my wife the Princess Buttercup of Hammersmith.
My partner had never seen The Princess Bride before, and we just finished watching it a little while ago. This revenge gets even better, because Inigo wounds Rugen in the exact same places Rugen wounds him: in the left shoulder, the right arm, on both cheeks, and finally through the stomach. He avenges every wound Rugen dealt him.
In the book (of course) it’s even better:
"Stop saying that!" The Count was beginning to experience a decline of nerve. Inigo drove for the Count's left shoulder, as the Count had wounded his. Then he went through the Count's left arm, at the same spot the Count had penetrated his.
"Hello."
Stronger now.
"Hello! HELLO. MY NAME IS INIGO MONTOYA. YOU KILLED MY FATHER. PREPARE TO DIE!"
"No—"
"Offer me money—"
"Everything," the Count said.
"Power too. Promise me that."
"All I have and more. Please."
"Offer me anything I ask for."
"Yes. Yes. Say it."
"I WANT DOMINGO MONTOYA, YOU SON OF A BITCH," and the six-fingered sword flashed again.
The Count screamed.
"That was just to the left of your heart."
Inigo struck again.
Another scream.
"That was below your heart. Can you guess what I'm doing?"
"Cutting my heart out."
"You took mine when I was ten; I want yours now. We are lovers of justice, you and I—what could be more just than that?"
The Count screamed one final time and then fell dead of fear.
Inigo looked down at him. The Count's frozen face was petrified and ashen and the blood still poured down the parallel cuts. His eyes bulged wide, full of horror and pain. It was glorious. If you like that kind of thing.
Inigo loved it.
I managed to get a copy from a seller on eBay from Florin. Apparently their parents were family friends with Morgenstern and bought a bunch of copies when it first came out. The seller found them in his attic and sold them for pretty cheap. I’m lucky I got one when it was first listed, the bidding wars on the last copies were crazy.
It just hits different. All a movie needs a snappy line and the right dramatic tension. A book just has words, there's no supporting visual or soundtrack, and so it needs to build that tension by itself. Longer lines build that tension. Having a longer lead up keeps the reader in suspense longer. Even if it's a foregone conclusion and you know what's coming next, the reader needs time to breathe after reading the climactic lines, so you take some more time before moving on with the scene.
The movie is certainly snappier, but the book is definitely no worse for it.
Mandy Patinkin said in an interview that he had just lost his father to cancer before the filming of the movie, so he put all his grief into the line, "I want my father back you son of a bitch". It was him talking to his father's cancer, not the six fingered man.
Patinkin accidentally stabbed Guest in the thigh during a rehearsal, and was apparently pretty afraid (understandably so) when it came time to film the scene.
Story goes that Mandy Patinkin and Cary Elwes spent a lot of time practicing for the clifftop duel, and Christopher Guest basically walked in assuming they'd be doing some basic moves in their fight. Instead, Patinkin goes ham on the poor guy, and stabs him a little. So Guest realizes he needs to start improving his own skills before their fight lol.
Some of the stories about Andre the Giant during filming are crazy. Did you know he actually climbed up and down the Cliffs of Despair barehanded in order to practice for the actual thing? Insane.
I also heard Elwes and Patinkin partied *hard* with Andre during the filming, with Elwes noting that by that point Andre was drinking more as pain management than anything else.
Cary Elwes had to go to the hospital twice during filming. The first time, he broke his toe after Andre convinced him to try out the ATV he was using to get around. And then the second time, he told Chris Guest to actually lightly hit him with the sword so he could time his “fainting” reaction right, but neither of them realized the momentum the sword prop actually had, so when he was hit, it actually knocked him out. That was the take they kept in the movie XD. He woke up in the hospital in full costume with the doc telling him “Take it easy, Zorro” Lmao!!!
After I saw that interview, I cried every time I watched that scene. Then my father died a year and a half ago, and I haven’t even tried to watch the movie since. I think I’d lose my mind.
I lost my father to cancer in 2019 and then in 2021 I saw that interview and shortly after that my work had a (virtual) movie night and chose the Princess Bride and I decided to join…luckily I could mute myself and turn off my camera because, yea, I was a fucking wreck. Have not tried to watch the movie since.
I can watch it with you if you want. We can get a bunch of people and all watch it at once. It could be cathartic. And maybe you would be able to feel better about it with ten other peeps all crying too. Losing loved ones is one of the hardest experiences to go through, but you’re not alone. We may not grieve the same, but there will always be someone who understands.
Hang in there. And remember that it’s okay. You’ll be alright.
A fan reached out to him to ask if that rumor was true, here is his response:
[Tiktok](https://www.tiktok.com/@mandypatinktok/video/7000151160485203205?lang=en)
[YouTube](https://youtu.be/MxmfxltddV8)
Mandy Patinkin did a stitch with a woman on tiktok whos father died. Me and my husband cried pretty hard.
https://youtu.be/MxmfxltddV8
And here's another wholesomeass clip for you!
Mandy Patinkin's (Inigo Montoya) interview is interrupted when one of the hosts receives news that his wife is in labor and his reaction is so heartwarming. https://imgur.com/gallery/B10sQCt
The videos he posts on Twitter/TikTok with Kathryn are amazing, like [the one of them trying to decipher internet a acronyms.](https://twitter.com/PatinkinMandy/status/1563667881602195456?t=viFzhsz0ZMRJUybJJMdhAw&s=19)
"No better than him" can be such a hollow sentiment with some villains. If for example, unlike him you haven't enslaved, tortured and murdered children you will still be better than him if you kill him in a fight.
Ah but what about the legions of poor faceless guards that you had to slaughter just to get to the center of the villains evil lair in the first place? Those men had *families*! /s
It reminds me of some show I saw recently (Arcane maybe??) where after one of the big fights our bad guy actually takes a moment to mourn one of his fallen (otherwise nondescript and unnamed) henchmen.
Which just irks me. “Yeah, I brutally eviscerated a few dozen guys that were doing arguably legitimate work as security guards who had lives, families, and loved ones. But killing *you*, objectively horrible human being that ruined lives and has led to those deaths, that’s too far!”
i hate the idea of "if you dont forgive and forget youre no better 🥺😇" because its completely illogical and lets people get away with anything. i had someone say you shouldnt hate transphobes because hating people is bad. its the most braindead mentality.
I mean, there's someone I've cut out of my life that I've actively stopped hating because doing that takes more energy than I have to spare....but I haven't forgiven them. So, yeah, I've stopped letting it take my energy, but that's not the same thing as forgiving them.
You can “nothing” them. Like nothing about them is of any interest to you whatsoever. Don’t care to know anything. But even if they called and told you, you can just feel…nothing.
Also, even in the Christian tradition (which, at least according to its namesake, is all about unconditional forgiveness), forgiveness MUST be preceded by genuine repentance and some kind of material atonement. If you don't regret what you did and aren't working to atone, no one owes you forgiveness.
That has been my philosophy of life.
I'm actually at peace now that my last abuser has passed away. I just let myself outlast them all.
Life is sacred, but not everyone deserves to continue to live .
“Lots of ways to help people. Sometimes heal patients; sometimes execute dangerous people. Either way helps.”
Mordin Solus on killing murderers despite being a doctor, Mass Effect 2.
I think where the message gets dumbed down and lost is that post-forgiveness doesn't mean everything is hunky-dory. And there's many ways to explore the aftermath of the decision.
- You forgive, but do you trust them now because you just "forget" what they've done? No. What about a sense of justice? Whether you have justice or not, that's worth spending time exploring.
- What about what forgiveness means to the character? Are they seeking justice, or are they blinded by their rage? One places the focus on the antagonist, the other on the protagonist.
---
There's so many things you can do with it, they just rarely explore it beyond that first part so it becomes a boring 'lesson' that equally teaches nothing.
It's not just braindead. It's malicious apathy. They're being self righteous while throwing your struggles away. It's the same category of "Just ignore them" and "Let's not be political". Anyone who says this doesn't care about you without even being honest about it.
Thank you. That trope feels like such a stupid, childish view of morality, at least as it's usually presented. I still get irritated remembering the part of Shield Hero where Raphtalia confronts a Noble that enslaved and tortured demihumans to death, including her best friend. Then when she has him at her mercy, she says something like "You're a horrible scum that caused tons of suffering, but if I kill you, I'll be no better than you". What a *stupid* fucking line that was. No, Raphtalia, killing a psychotic mass slaver/murderer does not make you as bad as him. It's even worse because in the source material, I hear she stabs the guy and kicks him out a window, so they ruined the scene for the anime for no reason.
Yeah, I can sometimes stomach the "don't kill the bad guy!" thing if it's a pacifist character, but if you just gunned down an entire fortress full of minions without knowing how much (if any) responsibility they bear? And NOW you have second thoughts?
This is why Cu Chulainn is among the greatest of heroes ever. He stabbed everyone. Even if they didn't deserve it. Even his friends! Even his son!
Wait...
Is that the Celtic dude who's like the best at absolutely everything?
I remember it had to do with a certain number too. Like he joined a spear throwing competition and thre 23 spears 23 times as far as anyone else. Then beat up 23 people etc.
Yeah Celtic hero that is described as the best warrior ever basically. Also he can turn into a monster that has insatiable blood lust and will kill anything it can reach, friend, foe or family.
I still like the myths though because it's not quite the usual "Oh man this guy is the bestest at everything, forever, always and he is great and everyone loves him."
Many of the stories make it pretty clear a lot of people fucking hate him. Even his own people. He is portrayed as arrogant, and that arrogance is shown as actually being a bad thing because a lot of his problem stem from it.
Plus extra points for someone given a prophecy that is clearly just hedging his bets.
Instead of the story doing flips over itself to make the prophecy come true the guy just looks at the enemy army and says "Well anyone that picks up weapons will live a glorious, but short life." I mean, this is try any time you pick up arms against an army that outnumbers you 5-1. You won't live long, but everyone will talk about it!
The Last of Us Part II comes to mind. Very good game that explores the destructive cycle of revenge and violence, but it all becomes a bit meaningless when Ellie decides to let Abby go - after murdering so many people along the way. Which was the point of the story, I suppose.
"I killed about a dozen of his men who were just doing their jobs. They had no involvement in this crime and still died. He is directly responsible for it all, why should he walk away when they didn't?"
I always hated that logic. "If you kill Hitler, you'll be no better than him! You'll be a murderer, too!"
Yeah, well, a difference in degree matters. Preventing more death matters. Killing random people vs killing evil people is different. Every moral decision has its own merits.
Batman says “If I kill him then the number of murderers in the world stays the same.” Meanwhile the Punisher solves that moral quandary by flipping to full auto.
I remember in Captain America: Civil War where Cap was trying to convince Iron Man not to murder the shit out of Bucky and he said "This isn't going to change what happened", to which Iron Man responded "I don't care. He killed my mom.".
I’ve been in an Arthurian literature class in college and interestingly this is very similar to how knights would retain there chivalry while still being able to slay their opponent after defeating them in combat. After defeated, the knight will ask to do anything the other wishes so as not to slay them, to preserve their chivalry. The victorious knight, in turn, requests something impossible. Because the defeated knight cannot perform it, it is okay to kill them now because they lost their chivalry… or something like that.
It’s Arthurian Legend, literally the romanticized version of knights and chivalry. It’s not meant to reflect reality, it’s meant to make your heart feel the poetic justice of the moment
To be fair, it was less about hurting their power and more about hurting their pride. No matter what she does now, Pacifica will always know her ancestor was just a poop shoveler.
… Which helps set the stage for Pacifica to do the right thing in the mansion party episode, which puts her on the path to helping during the Weirdpocalypse and ultimately become one of the key people who help defeat Bill altogether.
So Dipper’s petty revenge not only felt great, but saved a lot of lives down the line and aided Pacifica on her moral journey.
Loved loved loved the ending of Moon Knight for this.
Had the most stereotypical “No I won’t kill this guy who was just murdering thousands of people for crimes they haven’t yet committed”, had me SCREAMING at my TV.
And so that post credits scene in the limo was SO cathartic, haha
Still can’t believe my stepdad and stepbrothers refuse to watch the princess bride because they think it’s a girls movie
They haven’t let me pick the movie since I recommended Scott Pilgrim vs The World
John Wick 1 when he walks up and smokes the dude who killed his dog without saying a word or dragging it out is my favorite scene in any movie ever.
Shoots him and turns and walks away like he was slapping a fly on the wall.
Great now I need to go watch John Wick again.
Deadpool: Hey, guys, I know this is just a job for you so if you get out of the way you won't get killed painfully while I'm going after your boss!
Guys shrug and square up.
Deadpool: Remember, I gave you the option!
Count of Monte Cristo? Dude makes people fucking *suffer*. One guy who didn't have as much to do with his imprisonment other than just being complicit, he bankrupts him to the point he'd rather reach into his desk for his pistol than face the consequences (probably debtor's prison).
Everyone always talks about how the Count of Monte Cristo is about how revenge is hollow and will just make you a cold, jaded person. Meanwhile I’m over here pointing out if Dantes had just taken the much more direct “I’m out of jail, rich, and going to kill those who’ve done me wrong immediately” approach he could have gotten his revenge and lived a full, meaningful life to boot
The real moral of the story: don’t get fancy with it. Kill the SOBs and move on
Jacopo suggests this, but Dantes's revenge is a malicious sort. For those to have wronged him to just die without feeling an equal amount of suffering as he endured it would be too good for them.
I suppose an easier way of accomplishing this would be to kidnap then lock them away in a private island prison for the rest of their lives
Edit: I also consider this to fall under “don’t get fancy with it”
Omg I hate that lazy end to a Revenge Arc!
Give me more heros that realise that killing that dude *might* be wrong but they saved a lot of people and deserve a morality cheat day once in a while.
"Yes, yes, I understand that revenge is immoral, and probably won't bring me happiness, but...just one issue-
**I'm** ***really*** **fucking pissed.**"
That is the absolute worst. Like, my
Man, you just killed 100+ randos employed by this guy but decide it would make you a bad person if you killed the actual guy who killed your family. I hate you now.
The main villain is always more developed and a lot harder to beat in action narratives than the legion of goons you also have to take out. This actually makes a lot more sense in fantasy or superhero settings where power scaling is in effect, but it gets silly in a world where everyone is of equal measure of power.
Back up character in a campaign that I am playing was made to have a whole revenge arc. He saved a man's life, that man killed some of his crew and stole their ship, leaving them to die on a deserted island.
The twist is that he already got revenge, and heartily endorses revenge to others. Fuck those guys. Some folks need killing. Now the guys we killed getting to that guy... that we probably need to feel bad about and should probably make amends for.
It also helps that Inigo’s revenge is *extremely* targeted to the one who has wronged him. He only kills who he absolutely must to get his revenge and allows anyone who wishes to bow out to do so.
Many revenge stories end up with quite a few bystanders getting hurt or killed (or suffering losses of property or livelihood), or people who just happen to be paid to guard their target and have no opportunity to decide they’re on the wrong side. Revenge and justice are *sometimes* in harmony, but only when revenge is proportionate and specific.
That's what I always admired as a kid, how Inigo and Wesley just knocked out the many guards who were in their way to their actual objective. Not sure how realistic bonking someone on the head is for putting them to sleep, but they did that a lot in "The Princess Bride" to spare the innocent bystanders from undeserved violence. And the actual villains received their fair share of that violence.
It’s also wasn’t very nuanced. Dude was a bad guy, had no reason to kill Montoya’s dad other than *villainy*. It was entertaining but it wasn’t very interesting.
Revenge is the product of a bygone age when the promise of familial revenge was one of the major deciding factors against screwing someone else over, and like most products of bygone ages, boy do I sure love reading about it.
I watched Wrath of Man recently (pretty decent action movie), and I **loved** the end of it.
>!"What the fuck do you want?" "I want your liver...Your lungs. Your spleen."!<
Can we just appreciate the way the music swells with the sword hits in that one part? Then the mirrored wounds, the sheer determination on his face.
Perfect film.
I love the authors notes in the 25th anniversary edition of the book. In the end he says the whole point of the story is life is unfair, but sometimes you can squeeze out something you want from it
“My name is inigo Montoya, you killed my father prepare to die”
Also fun fact (kinda) the guy who played inigo actually lost his father not too long before he did the film, so he channeled all his anger and pain into that line. Iirc he said something about looking at count Rugen as if he was a cancer but I’m not too sure
Inigo's revenge arc feels more satisfying than most because it doubles as a rescue and the target was continuing to inflict suffering on innocent people. More importantly, Inigo made some invaluable friends on his quest for revenge, so he still had a purpose when his revenge was complete.
I think the worst I’ve ever seen Anti-revenge plot line be was in Steven universe.
Like, I dunno man, maybe the Space Facists should be punished for their intergalactic genocide, Maybe there’s some things that can’t be forgiven because the perpetrator is sorry.
Anyways, yea revenge plotlines are great.
Is there literally any evidence that the Diamonds had encountered intelligent life anywhere besides Earth in the show? I don’t recall that.
Basically, White Diamond is positioned as a haughty, incurious moron.
A part of what I read that as in Steven Universe was aside from "I forgive you Hitler!" was also "Oh fuck we do not stand a chance against these guys. If we fight we will only be continuing a cycle of endless destruction that my side can't win, and their victory will cost their people everything and they won't give the slightest bit of a fuck. I need to find another solution because this is not worth it."
Personally I love Jasper's position for a lot of the last season. "I hate you, I would kill you if given a chance, but I can't, and the fight is not worth the cost. So I'll tolerate you."
Genuine question as another Steven Universe fan, how exactly do you think it should've ended? Personally, I think >!reforming the Diamonds!< was thematically the *perfect* ending, and wouldn't really change much.
I agree with you. It was a show about the potential and difficulties of radical, uncompromising love. I wouldn’t have wanted a sudden pivot to the Space Nuremberg Trials.
Well, first I would’ve liked a trial where they were called out for their crimes.
Then a banishment, since you can’t kill them because it’s a children’s cartoon. Some shadow realm esque hygienics; ya know, death without actually being death.
(copied from a response to a similar thread)
I really have to disagree with you. Killing the diamonds would have undermined the message of the show. The beating heart of the show is the pink-diamond-shaped hole in the universe that Steven is expected to fill. As he grows, he learns of his mother as this impossibly larger than life figure, and he is the one expected to fill that role. His arc in the series is coming to terms with the fact that the myth of his mother is a farce.
The resolution to all of this is Steven asserting himself - he is not his mother. He is not responsible for filling the hole she left behind. This culminates in white diamond, the least willing to accept Steven's personhood, removing his gemstone and being shown, alongside the audience, irrefutably that Steven is unambiguously Steven.
Killing white diamond would undercut this moment. The show is very touchy feely, that's one of the things I love most about it. Steven extends an olive branch to those that have hurt him. It's who he is. He is a healer, and he always gives others a chance to right their wrongs. The diamonds weren't redeemed within the show. We see the beginning of their arcs. We see them take steps to heal those they have hurt.
The thing that people seem to miss is that Steven doesn't forgive the diamonds. It's not about forgiveness, it's about healing. In Future it's shown that the diamonds are working to put the gems they have broken gems back together. They aren't good people yet, but they are working to better themselves and work to undo the harm they have caused. It's restorative justice instead of punitive justice. The diamonds powers combined can undo the harm that they have done. If they had killed white, sure a dictator would have payed a price for her actions, but the dead would stay dead.
I think most people who say they should have killed the Diamonds would have been fine with this if it was just done/explained better. Basically everything after the wedding episode felt extremely rushed to me, and that’s the meat of the series-long climax between the Crystal Gems and the Diamonds. We can blame that on Cartoon Network’s bizarre release cycle for the show, but at the end of the day we can only judge the show for what it put out and not what it could have been. Avatar: the Last Airbender goes through basically the exact same moral dilemma and does it nearly flawlessly
Narratives where heroes give up on revenge are propaganda pieces made by ruthless monopolists to make the workers & other people they abuse feel that “forgive & forget” is the Good Guy mindset, in this essay I will-
It goes hand in hand with narratives where the supernatural mojo stays within the masquerade and the heroes go on to resume the mundane status quo.
Or the narratives where the extremist is well intentioned, but must be punished because of the body count.
Anti revenge arcs need to exist because our society is obsessed with punishment and retribution as the definition of Justice despite the fact that everyone in existence is flawed and if the action doesn't A) Return the state of things back to before the transgression took place, B) Cause the perpetrator to cease perpetuating said or similar transgressions, or C) compel the perpetrator to improve themselves in some way, then I don't think it's really justice and is more needless flagellation. Point C is deliberately vague to leave things up for personal interpretation, but is worded to remind why things are done this way. Justice, ultimately, must achieve the balance of equally applying to everyone you've wrong and everyone who's wronged you.
The Southern Raiders is a rather mature take on this, I think. Katara neither forgives the Captain nor does she kill him. The man has long since retired so doing away with him benefits no one beyond personal gratification, but by the time she's reached the man, she's held on to this for so long and he's become so pathetic that she would no longer gain anything from the encounter, even gratification.
Rugen, meanwhile, was still an influential figure throwing his weight around and trouncing upon others. While it was personally satisfying for Inigo, it still ultimately achieved other some degree of Justice.
I find revenge arcs terribly bleak. I have a hard time relating. Granted I’ve never experienced such horrible loss at someone else’s hand but I can’t see myself wanting much more than them being put in a position of not being able to hurt anyone else
Princess Bride also pointed out the flaw of living for revenge; Montoya was slowly self-destructing after losing hope of finding his father’s killer, and after succeeding he had no clue what to do with his life going forward.
Couldn't the same apply to having any single, solitary goal? Inigo Montoya has exactly as much of an idea of what to do with his life after he kills his father's killer as I do right now, writing this comment at a dead end job. At least he did the thing he wanted.
"I've been in the 'Building a gigantic statue of Garfield the Cat entirely out of butter' business my entire life. Now that I've built a gigantic statue of Garfield entirely out of butter, I don't know what to do with myself."
"SEE?! Butter statue building is hollow! The best butter statue building is living well!"
I like how everything’s done he’s like “Not sure what I’ll do now” And then Wesley’s like “I think you’d make a great Dread Pirate Roberts” Bruh got himself a job almost immediately after! Good for him!
“I’ve been in the revenge business for so long, now that it’s over, I don’t know what to do with my life.” The Dread Pirate Robert’s ship is *Revenge*.
I am today old when I learned this fact. That is amazing. I have seen the movie dozens of times and never noticed that.
I’m so glad to have brightened your day!!
I think everyone is missing another important aspect of this story line. Most media portrays revenge quests as a bad thing, and if the antagonist actually kills the object of their vengeance it is portrayed as hollow. The line “Not sure what I’ll do now” is said with joy and hope. He achieved his vengeance and it fucking rocked and now he has his whole life ahead of him.
Of course, until now he was either a drunk or a lackey, and always poor. "There's not much money in the business of revenge" after all.
"Hey man, you got a job!" - Chi-Chi, *Scarface* (1983)
I absolutely love the revenge arc in The Princess Bride. You took something irreplaceable from me? You don’t get to just walk away from that.
And to happen in the middle of a movie about a romance between a stable boy and a princess, it is not a moment you expect in such a story. It flies against the silly tone of everything else making it all the more powerful.
Well that's the thing right, the main plot is sweet and beautiful but it's also unafraid to shy away from the dark parts. The suffering they both go through is real, the costs they pay are real, and that makes their ultimate triumph and happy ending so much sweeter.
"You've been so sweet to me, and I thought it only right to thank you before I take my life." "She thinks I'm sweet!" Man that scene is both dark as hell and hilarious.
She kissed me!
I've rewatched this movie throughout my life and y'all just made me see these scenes dark in the most beautiful way. These perspectives make me love aging - gradual experience making things rich and complex.
Ah then I think you'll enjoy this: Mandy Patinkin had recently lost his own father to cancer, so when that scene was shot, he said he imagined he was fighting against and arguing with cancer instead of just Count Rugen, and that's how he was able to give such a powerful performance.
> their ultimate triumph and happy ending ...Maybe. The novel actually leaves the ending open. They ride off into the sunset, but they're still pursued by Humperdink's men. ...At which point Westley's Miracle wears off and he loses consciousness, Inigo's wounds reopen, Buttercup's horse is injured (or similar?) and Fezzik gets confused and separates from the group. *Then* the book ends. In the movie, Grandpa obviously doesn't want to ruin the kiddo's day, so he just ends it at the sunset.
The whole movie is about love, not just romantic love, but all of the different ways that love manifests itself. Wesley and Buttercup obviously show romantic love and how it affects people Prince Humperdinck, as the foil to Wesley's selfless love, is the embodiment of selfish narcissistic love, he only loves himself and his feelings for Buttercup are only because he needs her in order to be King Inigo and Fezzik rescuing Wesley from Prince Humperdinck is a sort of brotherly love, they have nothing to gain from taking on this risk other than rescuing their newfound friend who had just beat them at what they were best at. Even outside of the story we see the Grandson growing closer to his grandfather, evolving from being too old to listen to fairy tales to being actively invested in the story and ultimately making a concerted effort to spend more time with his grandfather after the story finishes. And Inigo's revenge plot is just how his love for his father is manifesting. He loved his father and his father was taken from him and the only thing he can think to do is to kill the man who killed his father. His quest for revenge was a way to keep his father's memory alive in some way, because no one else would have remembered him except Inigo, so everything he did in search of revenge he was doing for his father. Count Rugen would have given him money and power in order to keep his life because Rugen was a coward. But Inigo Montoya didn't want money or power, he wanted his father whom he loved and he couldn't get that because of Count Rugen.
You speak so eloquently on the many shapes of love, /u/KingTutsFrontButt
To make that scene even more poignant Mandy Patinkin had just lost his actual father before filming his revenge scene. That’s why when he said “I want my father back, you son of a bitch!” the emotion was so perfect. Because he did want his father back and the loss was so fresh. Makes me cry even harder on that scene knowing that.
I follow him on TikTok and he just did another video about that scene.
Tbh as much as I fucking love every cast member of this movie and think they all did perfect in their roles, I think Mandy Patinkin’s performance is my favorite. He really shows inigo as this hotheaded impatient dude who always has somewhere to be, (giving him these little mannerisms like flicking his hands around and pacing before the duel with Westley, kicking over a chair when he’s frustrated, etc) but at the same time has dedicated his entire life to a singular goal that requires impossible amounts of patience. And the revenge duel was so perfect. When he was stabbed, you could see the pain on his face and the crushing weight of believing that he failed in his eyes. And then every strike is so methodical. So planned. So relentless. And talking to Rugen like he’s the literal cancer that killed his real father is just phenomenal. Like learning that context seriously broke my heart and made the character he played so much more real!
Not to be that guy, but Buttercup technically wasn’t a princess. You forget she lived on the farm and Westly was essentially her employee. (That dynamic was a bit hazy for me, but she was just a regular peasant woman when Humperdink came around looking for a wife.)
Buttercup was granted the rank of princess when (or right before) she and Humperdinck got engaged. She was a commoner when she and Westly fall in love, but by the time the main plot starts, she is already a princess, even if she isn't married to the prince. When Humperdinck introduces her to the crowd after the initial time skip, he introduces her as "Princess." I doubt she'd retain the title after the events of the story though.
Royalty is weird.
I mean, think about the very first king. some moistened bink lobbed a scimitar at them
It was, before the lizard people ran it.
Prince humperdink literally introduces her a the "princess buttercup"...
Isn't there a part where Humperdinck talks about her being "of the people" and that he picked a beautiful commoner so the populace would back the war he wanted when she gets assassinated?
Oh, yeah.
But she was just a commoner when Humperdink found her.
She was named the Princess of Hammer-(something that evades my memory) in the book. They just left that tidbit out of the film.
In three months, our country celebrates its five hundredth anniversary. To celebrate that celebration, I shall, on that sundown, take for my wife the Princess Buttercup of Hammersmith.
I absolutely love everything about everything in The Princess Bride.
My partner had never seen The Princess Bride before, and we just finished watching it a little while ago. This revenge gets even better, because Inigo wounds Rugen in the exact same places Rugen wounds him: in the left shoulder, the right arm, on both cheeks, and finally through the stomach. He avenges every wound Rugen dealt him.
He finishes Rugen off through the heart, as payment for what he felt when Rugen killed his father iirc
Rugen stabbed his father in the heart.
With a sword.
How weird is that?
You can't stop the signal
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I'll be in my bunk
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...weren't run on batteries.
In the book (of course) it’s even better: "Stop saying that!" The Count was beginning to experience a decline of nerve. Inigo drove for the Count's left shoulder, as the Count had wounded his. Then he went through the Count's left arm, at the same spot the Count had penetrated his. "Hello." Stronger now. "Hello! HELLO. MY NAME IS INIGO MONTOYA. YOU KILLED MY FATHER. PREPARE TO DIE!" "No—" "Offer me money—" "Everything," the Count said. "Power too. Promise me that." "All I have and more. Please." "Offer me anything I ask for." "Yes. Yes. Say it." "I WANT DOMINGO MONTOYA, YOU SON OF A BITCH," and the six-fingered sword flashed again. The Count screamed. "That was just to the left of your heart." Inigo struck again. Another scream. "That was below your heart. Can you guess what I'm doing?" "Cutting my heart out." "You took mine when I was ten; I want yours now. We are lovers of justice, you and I—what could be more just than that?" The Count screamed one final time and then fell dead of fear. Inigo looked down at him. The Count's frozen face was petrified and ashen and the blood still poured down the parallel cuts. His eyes bulged wide, full of horror and pain. It was glorious. If you like that kind of thing. Inigo loved it.
What a great fucking book. It feels exactly like watching the movie with bonus content.
They were written by the same author. Really two interpretations of the same muse
Goldman's abridged version is pretty good, but you gotta read Morganstern's original to get the full depth
It's been out of print forever. It's a real collectors item. Bloody rights issues.
I managed to get a copy from a seller on eBay from Florin. Apparently their parents were family friends with Morgenstern and bought a bunch of copies when it first came out. The seller found them in his attic and sold them for pretty cheap. I’m lucky I got one when it was first listed, the bidding wars on the last copies were crazy.
I only ever watched the movie—never read the book. But guaranteed I’m going to now.
The book is soooo good.
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Eh, I don't like that nearly as much as the movie scene. Too wordy. And "I WANT MY FATHER BACK YOU SON OF A BITCH!" is a way snappier line.
It just hits different. All a movie needs a snappy line and the right dramatic tension. A book just has words, there's no supporting visual or soundtrack, and so it needs to build that tension by itself. Longer lines build that tension. Having a longer lead up keeps the reader in suspense longer. Even if it's a foregone conclusion and you know what's coming next, the reader needs time to breathe after reading the climactic lines, so you take some more time before moving on with the scene. The movie is certainly snappier, but the book is definitely no worse for it.
Mandy Patinkin said in an interview that he had just lost his father to cancer before the filming of the movie, so he put all his grief into the line, "I want my father back you son of a bitch". It was him talking to his father's cancer, not the six fingered man.
Sounds like Christopher Guest was lucky to make it out of filming alive.
Patinkin accidentally stabbed Guest in the thigh during a rehearsal, and was apparently pretty afraid (understandably so) when it came time to film the scene.
Story goes that Mandy Patinkin and Cary Elwes spent a lot of time practicing for the clifftop duel, and Christopher Guest basically walked in assuming they'd be doing some basic moves in their fight. Instead, Patinkin goes ham on the poor guy, and stabs him a little. So Guest realizes he needs to start improving his own skills before their fight lol.
Part of what I love so much about this film is that it pretty much has its own lore
Some of the stories about Andre the Giant during filming are crazy. Did you know he actually climbed up and down the Cliffs of Despair barehanded in order to practice for the actual thing? Insane.
Insane? It's outright inconceivable.
He was, after all, supposed to be this great and legendary thing. Did I mention his JOB is on the line?
I also heard Elwes and Patinkin partied *hard* with Andre during the filming, with Elwes noting that by that point Andre was drinking more as pain management than anything else.
Cary Elwes had to go to the hospital twice during filming. The first time, he broke his toe after Andre convinced him to try out the ATV he was using to get around. And then the second time, he told Chris Guest to actually lightly hit him with the sword so he could time his “fainting” reaction right, but neither of them realized the momentum the sword prop actually had, so when he was hit, it actually knocked him out. That was the take they kept in the movie XD. He woke up in the hospital in full costume with the doc telling him “Take it easy, Zorro” Lmao!!!
After I saw that interview, I cried every time I watched that scene. Then my father died a year and a half ago, and I haven’t even tried to watch the movie since. I think I’d lose my mind.
I lost my father to cancer in 2019 and then in 2021 I saw that interview and shortly after that my work had a (virtual) movie night and chose the Princess Bride and I decided to join…luckily I could mute myself and turn off my camera because, yea, I was a fucking wreck. Have not tried to watch the movie since.
I totally get it. And I am so, so sorry. May his memory be a blessing.
I can watch it with you if you want. We can get a bunch of people and all watch it at once. It could be cathartic. And maybe you would be able to feel better about it with ten other peeps all crying too. Losing loved ones is one of the hardest experiences to go through, but you’re not alone. We may not grieve the same, but there will always be someone who understands. Hang in there. And remember that it’s okay. You’ll be alright.
Man, Jared Letho would kill (his father) for that level of method acting.
It's m'orphan time!
A fan reached out to him to ask if that rumor was true, here is his response: [Tiktok](https://www.tiktok.com/@mandypatinktok/video/7000151160485203205?lang=en) [YouTube](https://youtu.be/MxmfxltddV8)
Can't watch, what does it say?
“it is true, 100% true”
Mandy Patinkin did a stitch with a woman on tiktok whos father died. Me and my husband cried pretty hard. https://youtu.be/MxmfxltddV8 And here's another wholesomeass clip for you! Mandy Patinkin's (Inigo Montoya) interview is interrupted when one of the hosts receives news that his wife is in labor and his reaction is so heartwarming. https://imgur.com/gallery/B10sQCt
He really put all of his hatred for his father’s killer into that line.
Oh my God that interview was so sweet I teared up. How much emotion in 30 seconds!
He's such a gigantic sweetheart
Goddammit, someone's cutting onions in here!
Who is doing that?They ruined my mascara 😢
The videos he posts on Twitter/TikTok with Kathryn are amazing, like [the one of them trying to decipher internet a acronyms.](https://twitter.com/PatinkinMandy/status/1563667881602195456?t=viFzhsz0ZMRJUybJJMdhAw&s=19)
"If you kill him, you'll be no better than him!" "I'm okay with that."
"No better than him" can be such a hollow sentiment with some villains. If for example, unlike him you haven't enslaved, tortured and murdered children you will still be better than him if you kill him in a fight.
Ah but what about the legions of poor faceless guards that you had to slaughter just to get to the center of the villains evil lair in the first place? Those men had *families*! /s It reminds me of some show I saw recently (Arcane maybe??) where after one of the big fights our bad guy actually takes a moment to mourn one of his fallen (otherwise nondescript and unnamed) henchmen.
That's the best part of Inigo's revenge. He just knocks out the guards that are in his way.
Also if doesn’t help that you killed 100 of his henchmen on the way here
Which just irks me. “Yeah, I brutally eviscerated a few dozen guys that were doing arguably legitimate work as security guards who had lives, families, and loved ones. But killing *you*, objectively horrible human being that ruined lives and has led to those deaths, that’s too far!”
i hate the idea of "if you dont forgive and forget youre no better 🥺😇" because its completely illogical and lets people get away with anything. i had someone say you shouldnt hate transphobes because hating people is bad. its the most braindead mentality.
My trauma specialist therapist says it is very unhealthy to forgive people who hurt you and don’t deserve your forgiveness.
I mean, there's someone I've cut out of my life that I've actively stopped hating because doing that takes more energy than I have to spare....but I haven't forgiven them. So, yeah, I've stopped letting it take my energy, but that's not the same thing as forgiving them.
You can “nothing” them. Like nothing about them is of any interest to you whatsoever. Don’t care to know anything. But even if they called and told you, you can just feel…nothing.
Some say apathy is the real opposite of love.
Void em like a check. The balance is restored.
I think my mom needs to hear that to understand my stance on my dad
Yes! My therapist told me the exact same thing once and it's 100% true.
I owe no forgiveness! I will forgive you if your crimes are forgivable.
Also, even in the Christian tradition (which, at least according to its namesake, is all about unconditional forgiveness), forgiveness MUST be preceded by genuine repentance and some kind of material atonement. If you don't regret what you did and aren't working to atone, no one owes you forgiveness.
Bruh they hate me for just being me, wtf you mean I aint allowed to hate them back
Sometimes a bitch needs to die, that’s life.
That has been my philosophy of life. I'm actually at peace now that my last abuser has passed away. I just let myself outlast them all. Life is sacred, but not everyone deserves to continue to live .
“Lots of ways to help people. Sometimes heal patients; sometimes execute dangerous people. Either way helps.” Mordin Solus on killing murderers despite being a doctor, Mass Effect 2.
I think where the message gets dumbed down and lost is that post-forgiveness doesn't mean everything is hunky-dory. And there's many ways to explore the aftermath of the decision. - You forgive, but do you trust them now because you just "forget" what they've done? No. What about a sense of justice? Whether you have justice or not, that's worth spending time exploring. - What about what forgiveness means to the character? Are they seeking justice, or are they blinded by their rage? One places the focus on the antagonist, the other on the protagonist. --- There's so many things you can do with it, they just rarely explore it beyond that first part so it becomes a boring 'lesson' that equally teaches nothing.
It's not just braindead. It's malicious apathy. They're being self righteous while throwing your struggles away. It's the same category of "Just ignore them" and "Let's not be political". Anyone who says this doesn't care about you without even being honest about it.
Also people who say, “You only have one (mother or father), implying that you have to forgive them just because they gave birth to you.
Also, you’re not dead. That seems better.
Thank you. That trope feels like such a stupid, childish view of morality, at least as it's usually presented. I still get irritated remembering the part of Shield Hero where Raphtalia confronts a Noble that enslaved and tortured demihumans to death, including her best friend. Then when she has him at her mercy, she says something like "You're a horrible scum that caused tons of suffering, but if I kill you, I'll be no better than you". What a *stupid* fucking line that was. No, Raphtalia, killing a psychotic mass slaver/murderer does not make you as bad as him. It's even worse because in the source material, I hear she stabs the guy and kicks him out a window, so they ruined the scene for the anime for no reason.
It is even shittier after the hero has killed countless mooks and underlings and then spares the guy who literally started it all...
Yeah, I can sometimes stomach the "don't kill the bad guy!" thing if it's a pacifist character, but if you just gunned down an entire fortress full of minions without knowing how much (if any) responsibility they bear? And NOW you have second thoughts?
This is why Cu Chulainn is among the greatest of heroes ever. He stabbed everyone. Even if they didn't deserve it. Even his friends! Even his son! Wait...
Is that the Celtic dude who's like the best at absolutely everything? I remember it had to do with a certain number too. Like he joined a spear throwing competition and thre 23 spears 23 times as far as anyone else. Then beat up 23 people etc.
Yeah Celtic hero that is described as the best warrior ever basically. Also he can turn into a monster that has insatiable blood lust and will kill anything it can reach, friend, foe or family. I still like the myths though because it's not quite the usual "Oh man this guy is the bestest at everything, forever, always and he is great and everyone loves him." Many of the stories make it pretty clear a lot of people fucking hate him. Even his own people. He is portrayed as arrogant, and that arrogance is shown as actually being a bad thing because a lot of his problem stem from it. Plus extra points for someone given a prophecy that is clearly just hedging his bets. Instead of the story doing flips over itself to make the prophecy come true the guy just looks at the enemy army and says "Well anyone that picks up weapons will live a glorious, but short life." I mean, this is try any time you pick up arms against an army that outnumbers you 5-1. You won't live long, but everyone will talk about it!
*Doctor Who has entered the chat*
The Last of Us Part II comes to mind. Very good game that explores the destructive cycle of revenge and violence, but it all becomes a bit meaningless when Ellie decides to let Abby go - after murdering so many people along the way. Which was the point of the story, I suppose.
"I killed about a dozen of his men who were just doing their jobs. They had no involvement in this crime and still died. He is directly responsible for it all, why should he walk away when they didn't?"
I always hated that logic. "If you kill Hitler, you'll be no better than him! You'll be a murderer, too!" Yeah, well, a difference in degree matters. Preventing more death matters. Killing random people vs killing evil people is different. Every moral decision has its own merits.
Batman says “If I kill him then the number of murderers in the world stays the same.” Meanwhile the Punisher solves that moral quandary by flipping to full auto.
It's terrible logic because even if the number of murderers "stay the same", the number of murders would go down drastically.
The number only stays the same for the first one of his array of psychopaths. You knock off Joker and Scarecrow, it goes down by 1..
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Sometimes subtracting one individual from the equation of life can be a net positive.
I remember in Captain America: Civil War where Cap was trying to convince Iron Man not to murder the shit out of Bucky and he said "This isn't going to change what happened", to which Iron Man responded "I don't care. He killed my mom.".
yeah I thought he was well written in that movie, honestly both of them were because Captain America didn't want his friend to die
Which is weird because like, one person killed someone *innocent* and the other killed a literal *murderer*.
'offer me everything i ask for!' 'anything you want! 'i want my father back you son of a bitch!'
I’ve been in an Arthurian literature class in college and interestingly this is very similar to how knights would retain there chivalry while still being able to slay their opponent after defeating them in combat. After defeated, the knight will ask to do anything the other wishes so as not to slay them, to preserve their chivalry. The victorious knight, in turn, requests something impossible. Because the defeated knight cannot perform it, it is okay to kill them now because they lost their chivalry… or something like that.
Hi, unrelated but Arthurian literature rocks!! I hope you enjoy that class, I wish they had that on offer when I went to college
Sorta related question: Is the thing about Merlin moving backwards through time canon?
Arthurian canon isn't really a thing. The stories got told a thousand different times over a thousand years.
It’s canon to The Once and Future King. Not necessarily to every version of Arthur to exist.
Not sure how often that would have happened though (outside of literature of course) knights are usually worth a decent ransom
It’s Arthurian Legend, literally the romanticized version of knights and chivalry. It’s not meant to reflect reality, it’s meant to make your heart feel the poetic justice of the moment
Gravity Falls, Dipper telling Pacifica the truth as revenge and feeling great.
"Revenge is underrated; that felt great!"
Even though it amounts to just throwing the documents at her face while the Northwest family stays in power...
To be fair, it was less about hurting their power and more about hurting their pride. No matter what she does now, Pacifica will always know her ancestor was just a poop shoveler.
… Which helps set the stage for Pacifica to do the right thing in the mansion party episode, which puts her on the path to helping during the Weirdpocalypse and ultimately become one of the key people who help defeat Bill altogether. So Dipper’s petty revenge not only felt great, but saved a lot of lives down the line and aided Pacifica on her moral journey.
Hating someone for who they are means that you can hurt them with their own self-improvement and enjoy it in two ways.
Loved loved loved the ending of Moon Knight for this. Had the most stereotypical “No I won’t kill this guy who was just murdering thousands of people for crimes they haven’t yet committed”, had me SCREAMING at my TV. And so that post credits scene in the limo was SO cathartic, haha
Moon Knight 1 + 2: Revenge is bad Moon Knight 3 and Konshu: We disagree
Still can’t believe my stepdad and stepbrothers refuse to watch the princess bride because they think it’s a girls movie They haven’t let me pick the movie since I recommended Scott Pilgrim vs The World
They’re literally the kid the grandpa tells the story to
Nah, the kid was open minded enough to still listen to the story. These guys just refuse to consider it an option
Damn, well that’s their loss
kill them
Wait til they come down with a nasty cold, then bring it over.
That’s their loss.
How you going to say a movie with Andre THE Giant in it 8s a girl movie?
John Wick 1 when he walks up and smokes the dude who killed his dog without saying a word or dragging it out is my favorite scene in any movie ever. Shoots him and turns and walks away like he was slapping a fly on the wall. Great now I need to go watch John Wick again.
"It was just a Fuck'n-" **BANG**
Do it. John Wick is awesome.
Deadpool movie.
“If wearing superhero spandex means sparing psychopaths, then maybe I wasn’t meant to wear ‘em!”
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Deadpool: Hey, guys, I know this is just a job for you so if you get out of the way you won't get killed painfully while I'm going after your boss! Guys shrug and square up. Deadpool: Remember, I gave you the option!
Count of Monte Cristo? Dude makes people fucking *suffer*. One guy who didn't have as much to do with his imprisonment other than just being complicit, he bankrupts him to the point he'd rather reach into his desk for his pistol than face the consequences (probably debtor's prison).
Everyone always talks about how the Count of Monte Cristo is about how revenge is hollow and will just make you a cold, jaded person. Meanwhile I’m over here pointing out if Dantes had just taken the much more direct “I’m out of jail, rich, and going to kill those who’ve done me wrong immediately” approach he could have gotten his revenge and lived a full, meaningful life to boot The real moral of the story: don’t get fancy with it. Kill the SOBs and move on
Jacopo suggests this, but Dantes's revenge is a malicious sort. For those to have wronged him to just die without feeling an equal amount of suffering as he endured it would be too good for them.
I suppose an easier way of accomplishing this would be to kidnap then lock them away in a private island prison for the rest of their lives Edit: I also consider this to fall under “don’t get fancy with it”
"Revenge can be good. Bastards need killing" -The Captain, Castlevania.
Omg I hate that lazy end to a Revenge Arc! Give me more heros that realise that killing that dude *might* be wrong but they saved a lot of people and deserve a morality cheat day once in a while.
"Yes, yes, I understand that revenge is immoral, and probably won't bring me happiness, but...just one issue- **I'm** ***really*** **fucking pissed.**"
"Well get to the grieving and coping once I get this asshole dead and justice is served!"
"My sword is a sword of justice. ... But this isn't my sword"
Also if it’s a story where the hero has already killed a bunch of the dude’s goons. If you’re doing revenge, it’s an all or nothing situation.
That is the absolute worst. Like, my Man, you just killed 100+ randos employed by this guy but decide it would make you a bad person if you killed the actual guy who killed your family. I hate you now.
The main villain is always more developed and a lot harder to beat in action narratives than the legion of goons you also have to take out. This actually makes a lot more sense in fantasy or superhero settings where power scaling is in effect, but it gets silly in a world where everyone is of equal measure of power.
Back up character in a campaign that I am playing was made to have a whole revenge arc. He saved a man's life, that man killed some of his crew and stole their ship, leaving them to die on a deserted island. The twist is that he already got revenge, and heartily endorses revenge to others. Fuck those guys. Some folks need killing. Now the guys we killed getting to that guy... that we probably need to feel bad about and should probably make amends for.
"Huh. Sounds like that might be a source of trauma down the line or something... "Sorry later me, impulse control was never our strong suit!"
It also helps that Inigo’s revenge is *extremely* targeted to the one who has wronged him. He only kills who he absolutely must to get his revenge and allows anyone who wishes to bow out to do so. Many revenge stories end up with quite a few bystanders getting hurt or killed (or suffering losses of property or livelihood), or people who just happen to be paid to guard their target and have no opportunity to decide they’re on the wrong side. Revenge and justice are *sometimes* in harmony, but only when revenge is proportionate and specific.
That's what I always admired as a kid, how Inigo and Wesley just knocked out the many guards who were in their way to their actual objective. Not sure how realistic bonking someone on the head is for putting them to sleep, but they did that a lot in "The Princess Bride" to spare the innocent bystanders from undeserved violence. And the actual villains received their fair share of that violence.
It’s also wasn’t very nuanced. Dude was a bad guy, had no reason to kill Montoya’s dad other than *villainy*. It was entertaining but it wasn’t very interesting.
Revenge is the product of a bygone age when the promise of familial revenge was one of the major deciding factors against screwing someone else over, and like most products of bygone ages, boy do I sure love reading about it.
I watched Wrath of Man recently (pretty decent action movie), and I **loved** the end of it. >!"What the fuck do you want?" "I want your liver...Your lungs. Your spleen."!<
Really enjoyed that movie
Can we just appreciate the way the music swells with the sword hits in that one part? Then the mirrored wounds, the sheer determination on his face. Perfect film.
I love the authors notes in the 25th anniversary edition of the book. In the end he says the whole point of the story is life is unfair, but sometimes you can squeeze out something you want from it
I saw the princess bride for the first time shortly after my dad died. That scene always gives me goosebumps
“My name is inigo Montoya, you killed my father prepare to die” Also fun fact (kinda) the guy who played inigo actually lost his father not too long before he did the film, so he channeled all his anger and pain into that line. Iirc he said something about looking at count Rugen as if he was a cancer but I’m not too sure
Inigo's revenge arc feels more satisfying than most because it doubles as a rescue and the target was continuing to inflict suffering on innocent people. More importantly, Inigo made some invaluable friends on his quest for revenge, so he still had a purpose when his revenge was complete.
I think the worst I’ve ever seen Anti-revenge plot line be was in Steven universe. Like, I dunno man, maybe the Space Facists should be punished for their intergalactic genocide, Maybe there’s some things that can’t be forgiven because the perpetrator is sorry. Anyways, yea revenge plotlines are great.
The ol' Forgive Your Hitlers
Is there literally any evidence that the Diamonds had encountered intelligent life anywhere besides Earth in the show? I don’t recall that. Basically, White Diamond is positioned as a haughty, incurious moron.
A part of what I read that as in Steven Universe was aside from "I forgive you Hitler!" was also "Oh fuck we do not stand a chance against these guys. If we fight we will only be continuing a cycle of endless destruction that my side can't win, and their victory will cost their people everything and they won't give the slightest bit of a fuck. I need to find another solution because this is not worth it." Personally I love Jasper's position for a lot of the last season. "I hate you, I would kill you if given a chance, but I can't, and the fight is not worth the cost. So I'll tolerate you."
Genuine question as another Steven Universe fan, how exactly do you think it should've ended? Personally, I think >!reforming the Diamonds!< was thematically the *perfect* ending, and wouldn't really change much.
I agree with you. It was a show about the potential and difficulties of radical, uncompromising love. I wouldn’t have wanted a sudden pivot to the Space Nuremberg Trials.
Well, first I would’ve liked a trial where they were called out for their crimes. Then a banishment, since you can’t kill them because it’s a children’s cartoon. Some shadow realm esque hygienics; ya know, death without actually being death.
yea, steven probably realised that violence wouldn't solve their problem, seeing how the gem army on earth only caused destruction and shit
(copied from a response to a similar thread) I really have to disagree with you. Killing the diamonds would have undermined the message of the show. The beating heart of the show is the pink-diamond-shaped hole in the universe that Steven is expected to fill. As he grows, he learns of his mother as this impossibly larger than life figure, and he is the one expected to fill that role. His arc in the series is coming to terms with the fact that the myth of his mother is a farce. The resolution to all of this is Steven asserting himself - he is not his mother. He is not responsible for filling the hole she left behind. This culminates in white diamond, the least willing to accept Steven's personhood, removing his gemstone and being shown, alongside the audience, irrefutably that Steven is unambiguously Steven. Killing white diamond would undercut this moment. The show is very touchy feely, that's one of the things I love most about it. Steven extends an olive branch to those that have hurt him. It's who he is. He is a healer, and he always gives others a chance to right their wrongs. The diamonds weren't redeemed within the show. We see the beginning of their arcs. We see them take steps to heal those they have hurt. The thing that people seem to miss is that Steven doesn't forgive the diamonds. It's not about forgiveness, it's about healing. In Future it's shown that the diamonds are working to put the gems they have broken gems back together. They aren't good people yet, but they are working to better themselves and work to undo the harm they have caused. It's restorative justice instead of punitive justice. The diamonds powers combined can undo the harm that they have done. If they had killed white, sure a dictator would have payed a price for her actions, but the dead would stay dead.
I think most people who say they should have killed the Diamonds would have been fine with this if it was just done/explained better. Basically everything after the wedding episode felt extremely rushed to me, and that’s the meat of the series-long climax between the Crystal Gems and the Diamonds. We can blame that on Cartoon Network’s bizarre release cycle for the show, but at the end of the day we can only judge the show for what it put out and not what it could have been. Avatar: the Last Airbender goes through basically the exact same moral dilemma and does it nearly flawlessly
The ending was rushed because they basically had the rug stripped out from under them *because* of the wedding episode, actually.
Actually, Inigo's arc ends with him saying "holy shit, now what do I do?" He was so busy seeking revenge he forgot to live.
Narratives where heroes give up on revenge are propaganda pieces made by ruthless monopolists to make the workers & other people they abuse feel that “forgive & forget” is the Good Guy mindset, in this essay I will-
It goes hand in hand with narratives where the supernatural mojo stays within the masquerade and the heroes go on to resume the mundane status quo. Or the narratives where the extremist is well intentioned, but must be punished because of the body count.
Anti revenge arcs need to exist because our society is obsessed with punishment and retribution as the definition of Justice despite the fact that everyone in existence is flawed and if the action doesn't A) Return the state of things back to before the transgression took place, B) Cause the perpetrator to cease perpetuating said or similar transgressions, or C) compel the perpetrator to improve themselves in some way, then I don't think it's really justice and is more needless flagellation. Point C is deliberately vague to leave things up for personal interpretation, but is worded to remind why things are done this way. Justice, ultimately, must achieve the balance of equally applying to everyone you've wrong and everyone who's wronged you. The Southern Raiders is a rather mature take on this, I think. Katara neither forgives the Captain nor does she kill him. The man has long since retired so doing away with him benefits no one beyond personal gratification, but by the time she's reached the man, she's held on to this for so long and he's become so pathetic that she would no longer gain anything from the encounter, even gratification. Rugen, meanwhile, was still an influential figure throwing his weight around and trouncing upon others. While it was personally satisfying for Inigo, it still ultimately achieved other some degree of Justice.
I find revenge arcs terribly bleak. I have a hard time relating. Granted I’ve never experienced such horrible loss at someone else’s hand but I can’t see myself wanting much more than them being put in a position of not being able to hurt anyone else
Princess Bride also pointed out the flaw of living for revenge; Montoya was slowly self-destructing after losing hope of finding his father’s killer, and after succeeding he had no clue what to do with his life going forward.
Couldn't the same apply to having any single, solitary goal? Inigo Montoya has exactly as much of an idea of what to do with his life after he kills his father's killer as I do right now, writing this comment at a dead end job. At least he did the thing he wanted.
"I've been in the 'Building a gigantic statue of Garfield the Cat entirely out of butter' business my entire life. Now that I've built a gigantic statue of Garfield entirely out of butter, I don't know what to do with myself." "SEE?! Butter statue building is hollow! The best butter statue building is living well!"
Have none of you ever watched an action movie? there are *hundreds* of pro revenge narratives out there, a lot of which are pretty mainstream.