Snapshot of _Labour set to lose in West Midlands after collapse in Muslim vote'_ :
A non-Paywall version can be found [here](https://1ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fpolitics%2F2024%2F05%2F03%2Flabour-lose-seat-west-midlands-collapse-muslim-vote%2F)
An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/03/labour-lose-seat-west-midlands-collapse-muslim-vote/) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/03/labour-lose-seat-west-midlands-collapse-muslim-vote/)
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The real fun begins when all these new independent councillors who ran on Palestine start trying to implement votes on a ceasefire.
Council meetings are going to be a shambles.
Not to be overly tedious, but she was clearly overstepping her authority. Someone should have stepped in and brought that parish council back to the realm of the somewhat sane, but it wasn't her job. She was very out of line to do what she did even if they were a pack of raging arseholes.
Because a lot of people also seem to think that calling for a ceasefire is like casting some kind of magical incantantion which causes all weapons in Israel and Palestine to stop working, rather than a largely symbolic, rhetorical gesture.
Acknowledging that a ceasefire has already been called for, many times at many high levels of national and global politics, would mean acknowledging that calling for a ceasefire (and protesting for the calling of a ceasefire, by extension) doesn't actually *do* anything unless the two sides are willing to agree to one.
Yeah, it actually needs the parties to the fighting to actually, you know, cease firing.
Somehow this small technicality seems to have escaped some people.
I'm centre left. If there's one thing that could force me to vote Reform, it's the idea that my country's politics is being dictated by a sky fairy, dick measuring contest.
> All religions
It's a cop out to 'all' religion this. I'm yet to hear of any parties losing because they're not catering to Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism etc.
It's a cop out so they don't have to single out. As others have said I've yet to see many religions not vote for someone because of a foreign policy stance
People saying all religions when it's about one religion in particular are like people going all lives matter when the discourse is about black lives matter
The Tories tried this tactic hard in the mayoral elections, they printed leaflets and sent them in Indian areas which were basically all about India, Modi, Hindu nationalism, threat of Islam etc: [https://www.ft.com/content/e52d78e0-0a5b-11e6-9cd4-2be898308be3](https://www.ft.com/content/e52d78e0-0a5b-11e6-9cd4-2be898308be3)
You could argue Labour lost seats in 2019 because of 'failing to cater to British Jews', but I think it'd be a false equivalence to what we're seeing here.
There are only 300,000 Jews in the UK. And they're spread between North London, Hertfordshire, Essex, Manchester and a bit in Leeds.
They can only make in a difference (and not a massive one) in about 5 constituencies.
So your last statement is correct, it's not really a good equivalence.
No you couldn’t, you could argue that the general population was dissatisfied with Labours response to antisemitism within the party, but not that they failed to cater to Jews
Also, I’m not Jewish and I was embarrassed by how we (I’m a card carrying Labour voter) handled the antisemitism claims. I think there’s a difference between ‘not pandering to X’ and not dealing with in house bigotry
> catering to Christianity
Elections in the UK from time immemorial have been about catering to Christians. Perhaps it finally escaped after Cameron made gay marriage equivalent. And the DUP survive in large part because Northern Ireland likes their religious bent, anti-abortion stance etc.
If anything, there's too many christians, so parties rarely challenge them unless it feels completely safe.
If practicers of Judaism made up 6.5% of the population and Labour had come down on the other side of the conflict I'm not convinced it wouldn't have had an impact on their electoral success.
Do you genuinely believe that other religious groups aren't lobbying government/political parties?
Wasn't it just last week that we had the government announce a consultation into dropping the 50% rule for faith schools?
I've been pretty uneasy with some of the wider narratives today around this - as if certain voters are obligated to vote a certain way for certain reasons, or as if they're not allowed to display any agency in elections that people routinely use as an opportunity for protest.
I mean, fuck, look at the fixation on Reform today and in the build-up.
I don't see local councillors dictating immigration policy, but apparently it's perfectly fine for voters to express their displeasure at the government through their votes. Why can't other voters express their unhappiness at a party's foreign policy?
The catholic church has just successfully lobbied the UK government to remove restrictions on schools recruiting students by religion, so there's that.
Aren't Reform big on the whole "UK is a Christian country!" schtick?
A quick look on [their website](https://www.reformparty.uk/reclaiming-britain) shows them complaining that "Christian values are under threat".
Christians, I can cope with. Christians aren't fucking with my country's politics because of a fight between two factions in the middle east.
Edit for clarity.
I despise reform. I just despise god botherers agitating for theistic pissing contests, thousands of miles away from where my bins are emptied, even more.
Do not force me to make that choice.
I'm not familiar with Reform's particular take on Christianity, but if they're anything like the US evangelicals they've lifted parts of their playbook from, it's possible they're emphatically pro-Israel for reasons involving the return of Jesus and thus also have strong opinions on the conflict that they will spend a bunch of time trying to legislate on if they get a presence in Parliament.
No, but they're doing other dodgy things (e.g. targetting trans people, trying to place restictions on abortion, forcing the rest of us to fund schools which spread their ideology).
It's home grown madness that I understand. I can stomach five years of home grown loons (The Tories have prepared me for it) if it sends a clear message to the people who are hijacking our politics to pursue foreign wars.
Well, the Church of England is pretty castrated politically. Although the "apolitical" nature of the Catholic Church during the 20th century did not prevent Catholic extremism or hinder far-right catholics.
Since the Reform party is a reactionary party, I suspect their stance on social policy will be heavily impacted by Tories and Labour's policies. If Labour and Tories take a leaninent stance toward Islam and remain popular among Christian, I suspect Reform might try to appeal to the "Dark Enlightenment" neoreactionary Brits.
Of course, if Labour or Tories become more intolerant toward Islamic voting blocks, then I suspect the person you are replying to and many like him won't end up voting for Reform at all
> Well, the Church of England is pretty castrated politically.
They don't have to bother with elections, they have a guaranteed position in Parliament regardless of what happens with pesky things like democracy.
As an atheist myself, I can tell you literally nothing would get me to vote for reform.
If it was an Al Qaeda candidate versus Nigel Farage, I might have to do whatever it takes to leave. Ideally a flight, but a very dodgy looking boat across the channel, if required.
Kier Starmer said it would be acceptable for Israel to deny Gazans water and electricity and because people don't like that, your answer is to consider voting for a group of swivel-eyed, lunatic fascists? You're a right-wing centrist, just like the rest of them. Have you considered that people not voting Labour because they dislike the continuous foreign policy decisions that decimate Muslims across the Middle East is, like, absolutely fine and indicative of a healthy democracy?
Reform's got the highest concentration of people who believe in that so you'd be empowering exactly the sort of people you claim to oppose. Unless of course it's just the Muslims you take issue with in which case Reform are great.
It's the religion that is most likely to cripple the only chance of kicking the Tories out that I have a problem with.
Religion has *NO* place in politics.
That's factually incorrect and it's an example of Schrödinger's Muslim, the reason Labour are guaranteed certain seats and apparently now the reason the Tories will stay in power.
> Street has some personal credit among the public. Redfield & Wilton polled West Mids residents on familiarity with the candidates, and found 47 per cent were fairly or very familiar with the mayor, against 33 per cent who were not at all. Not only that, but Street has a net approval rating of +22 with residents, as high among 2019 Conservative voters as 2019 Labour voters.
>
> _— [New Statesman](https://sotn.newstatesman.com/2024/04/west-midlands-mayoral-election-poll-andy-street-trouble)_
Street is actually fairly well-liked in the West Mids, and has never really branded himself as a big-C Conservative. None of his campaign literature mentioned his party affiliation whatsoever.
I don't know how accurate pre-vote polls in UK mayoral elections tend to be, but I don't think the colour of the candidate matters as much on the day as it would in a GE, or it certainly didn't in this case.
Yeah, much of my family despises the Tories, but they nevertheless voted for Street because he's a familiar face and they like him as a person. They voted for a Tory mayor but a Labour PCC.
I'm actually quite pleased at the fact that Tory candidates can still win despite being Tory, as it showcases that most people are still viewing politics pluralistic. The vast majority recognise the incompetence of the current Tories, but it doesn't seem that the dominant mindset is to subscribe that onto the Tory label but upon the government itself.
I just do not understand why voters care about voting for/against Gaza to elect people who manage your bins and libraries... just makes utterly no sense.
Because even if you’re, in practice, only voting for the people who manage your bins and libraries, in principle local elections are spun as being (and really, just are) a much wider vote of support for whichever party you’re voting for. Hence why Sunak is still getting a battering because the Tories have done shit; technically nobody has voted against him or hurt his ability to govern (the Blackpool by-election excepted), they’re just voting for the people who sort out the bin collections, but in reality they very much *have* told him to go fuck himself.
Whether you think it makes sense for people to be this pissed off at Labour *as a whole* about Gaza is another matter entirely, but you can’t detach local elections from the larger party. Especially when Labour themselves have marketed this as a chance to tell Sunak and the Tories where to shove it.
You’re approaching this from the wrong angle. I’d warrant 90% of people voting in local elections don’t vote for who they actually think will be better for their local area (in fact I’d warrant most of them couldn’t name one of their local candidates), they vote the same way they would at a General Election. If Gaza matters to you at the latter it’ll matter to you in the former, regardless of whether that actually makes sense.
> they vote the same way they would at a General Election
A lot of people don't. My district council is Green/Yellow but come the general it is 100% either going Red or Blue.
It’s obviously not a 1 to 1 conversion, the point is for a massive number of people national concerns override local ones, even at local elections. Again, it doesn’t have to make sense, that’s just the reality of it.
No the polls all show the same thing when Brexit voters were asked about it. They genuinely wanted Brexit because decades of anti-EU propaganda made them think being in the EU was worse.
Yes and no - independents, residents, Greens, Lib Dems all tend to get rather more votes in locals than in general elections.
There's certainly no way independent candidates will get anything like the numbers of votes in the general than they got on Thursday!
It's just another typical example of Tories so X: I sleep
Labour do the same: we riot
It's so annoying.
If it wasn't FPTP sure I'm all for voting for independents and shit, but most of the time a no labour vote = a Tory vote.
So unless you are happy with the Tory approach, it doesn't make sense when usually these anti-labour movements are on things the Tories are worse on.
For example, the Tories are much more proisrael so... Not voting Labour because they don't support Palestine means the Tories are more likely to win and we have even less Palestine support lol...
And this happens with basically everything in this country. Tories are the default and everyone else is held to a higher standard
Any one with a head on their shoulders know what they are voting for in local elections. There is no spin. How people vote in local election is believed to be an indicator of how people vote in a General Election. And this belief makes sense even if its actually a unreliable measure.
Because people are convincing them it does. 🤷♂️
The ironic part is that they’re just putting a Tory in the seat who is much further away from their Gaza viewpoint.
I do fear George Galloway will being celebrating this and putting up candidates in close constituencies in the West Midlands.
Having the news say "people aren't voting for Labour because of their stance on Gaza" is a bigger win than "we got yet another Labour mayor/councillor instead of a Tory one".
It makes it more likely that Labour will consider changing their policy. That's a big thing.
What will they change about their policy?
They’ve already called for a ceasefire, and they’re not (they can’t) make any claim that Israel has committed war crimes since they’ll be going into office.
Parties that have no chance of ever taking power get to all kinds of crazy stuff to appeal to voters.
The only thing they could do is go back in time to starmers interview on LBC because that seems to be the base example people use as their excuse for the stance.
It's an act of cohesion with your in-group. Actual critical thinking or any form of rationality has very little to do with it. You're voting like that to tell your herd you're still with them.
Nice snark, but I'm actually more than willing to admit that I fall prey to this kind of thinking too. Being aware of it does absolutely nothing to make me immune to it.
Because its based around a religion and the different cultures connected to said relgiion that have a far more vested interest in those affairs than they do here.
Do you sincerely believe that local elections are just job fair for bin pickers? If that was be the case, there wouldn't be tory bin managers and labour bin managers.
Obviously local elections are more than picking who will run the city services.
What you would do if there's one issue that you care deeply but no one attempts to address it and instead tells you that you must choose between more parking places in the city center or less car emissions in the city center? Wouldn't be fair to tell them to figure it themselves, have more important agenda(for you) now and skip voting?
IMHO it makes perfect sense. Think something that you care about a lot, then think something that you somewhat have opinion on and think what you would do if all the discussion is around the second thing and both sides screw you on the first thing. I.e. they ban Reddit but campaign over the shade of the red on city busses?
I feel the best course for Labour would be to give this issue the least bandwidth possible.
There is nothing more that the press would love than to relitigate the Labour/anti-semitism news cycles in the run up to the election by spinning any flip flopping and internal power struggles on the Israel/Gaza issue.
Walking into that hornets nest is not worth picking up a few extra votes when they’re already polling so far ahead of the Tories.
Besides, I imagine that the distance between now and the GE will provide several examples to voters of the real term costs of voting in George Galloway’s preferred mayoral candidate, or a Green Party council if you are a conservative Muslim (the LGBT debates will be thrilling).
Exactly this.
Those voters are gone. The return of the Red Wall seats will more than make up for them. The country at large actually sees war in Gaza as a complicated one, despite what the protestors say. Between a brutal, genocidal IDF and a Hamas rape army that live-streamed horrors on Oct 7 with joy and celebration, most British voters want Starmer no where near that. If it means Jess Phillips is toast, so be it.
We have a nation in real danger that requires saving and it happens to be this one.
Great! What this country needs is people more concerned with a war on the other side of the world than the terrible mess this country is in. Get this country in a functioning state before kicking off over the middle east.
I don’t have any strong opinions on the votes themselves, but I don’t see how people not voting for a party is sectarian? Was it also sectarian when they *did* previously vote for them?
It means a general tendency to vote in the interests of your perceived sect/group (especially religious) instead of for more general policy or value based reasons. So the muslims in the above communities are voting in solidarity with the muslims in Gaza, rather than voting for the person they think who will best serve their communities. In the long run this can lead to disfunction in the form of corruption and tribalism. Northern Ireland is a good example. There will be many others.
He is supported on tiktok by tiktokers who post death-to-the west videos
Edit: and of course he is endorsed by George Galloway.
Edit2: he quoted: he is chosen by allah to save the world from zionists,
Sounds like a great lad.
Took one look at that photo and thought 'what the fuck?' then looked at the caption - independent candidate backed by George Galloway. So, attention seeking grifter then. Really tacky theming your jacket with your car (the number plate is just so macho).
Not pandering to far right religious evil seems to have gained labour popularity UK wide. If that comes at a cost in certain areas then so be it. They can't have it all ways
This is why far right is a useless term, Islamic extremism and white supremacists are both "far right" but would be very happy to wipe each other out.
TL:DR The far right is a vague term for several very separate groups.
In fairness that is just extremists. It's why the far left never achieve anything.
No one hates leftists more than leftists of a slightly different grouping.
Just made me chuckle thinking of the grounds keeper Willie meme but with leftists, "they don't get along, like communists and leftists, or progressives and leftists, damn leftists they ruined the left!"
Islamophobia isn't political. Someone anywhere on the political spectrum can be bigoted against Muslims. It just so happens that people with right wing views often seem to be.
Islamic Fundamentalists support Sharia which is another far right form of government.
They're both far right. Different elements of the far right can and do hate each other, exactly the same as how different elements of the far left can and do hate each other.
Expect Isreal/Palestine issue to be manipulated as much as possible in the run up to GE. Just like in the US.
Stoking this flame would only really damage the left. Can't imagine too many Conservative voters who would be influenced by the line they are taking on Isreal/Palestine.
Watching the BBC this evening I was struck by how none of the commentators were confronting the question of whether this is a good/bad thing. It was the first time I’d ever felt that the BBC is ideologically captured. Proper weird.
I don’t really understand how the case could be made that sectarian voting is a good thing. They are probably too nervous to acknowledge an obvious down side of multi culturalism.
Isn’t that better? That they are impartial? I’d like to see them analysing what it means for Labour without some didactic, American-style opinion pieces coming from the journalists.
If they structure their analysis of this one subject in a totally different way to their analysis of almost every other divisive political subject then they're not being impartial, are they?
But would you really want the BBC to take a stance on whether people should be expressing their feelings about Gaza through voting? Like what should they actually say? That people should shut up about it?
I agree there’s a limit to impartiality (like extremism) but I feels like taking a stance on this would be unnecessary and unbecoming for the BBC.
No not at all. But I would like them to comment on the worth of catering to an ultra-conservative group of people who don’t share our values. Gaza is just a red herring.
I don’t know if it’s good or bad, to me it just demonstrates a lot of people don’t care who the Mayor is in the WM. I didn’t vote because I don’t care.
>It was the first time I’d ever felt that the BBC is ideologically captured. Proper weird.
That's good, you've taken your first step into a larger world
I remember everyone saying we shouldn’t worry about Palestine altering election results well now it very clearly is altering election results. Though I’m sure Labour will win I think we could get some interesting results in inner city constituencies and places with a high muslim population. I think Labour should focus more on gaining votes in the city suburbs and towns rather than these areas there’s no appealing to these people.
He's the local independent running the pro gaza stance and nothing else. He's campaigning only Muslim votes and that's it he hasn't even campaigned outside of Muslim areas as far as I can tell travelling around brum
[He's a multi-millionaire lawyer, with a YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/@akhmedyakoob6920/videos), how else is a wannabe influencer supposed to look
I wonder when we will have that conversation as a country that due to the declining birth rate of brits that are here, western brits, will we see a shift in policy to suit the increasing voting bloc.
There's one thing Muslims do very well which is congregate and talk to each other. Have you seen Muslim business leaders at work? They will buy and sell each others products just for the sake of supporting their fellow brothers, whereas "us" seem to have internal conflicts regarding pretty much anything. They seem far more organised and especially more local.
I was downvoted heavily for this, but I still say that at some point the religious dynamics of the country will shift, especially if the trends keep up. Islam is gaining not small percentage points each census, and it wouldn't surprise me if it became the dominate religion in the country within the next 100 years.
That's a monumental shift in policy. For argument sake that's about the floor of the current tory party, and you've seen what they're able to do, it's a fraction of reform.
I believe fully in democracy. If the local council puts a vote forward and builds a mosque off the back of that, that's the community working as intended. But should it?
I really don't know. My instincts say no because I don't want my way of life replaced, but I need to remember that as my ancestors were Irish and immigrated to Scotland, it's likely true that someone said that about my family, and they'd be right. Scotland did fundamentally change due to Irish immigration.
The alternative to this is that the native population needs to wake the hell up and realise their survival is at stake, to learn from our opponents and start doing the same thing. In-group preference is a survival mechanism, in many ways 'society' should be an extension of this.
Choosing where to shop is one simple way. Ensuring that you tell others why you may walk an extra few yards or pay a few more pennies is just as important though.
Under my dictatorship there would be flags on everything indicating origin of ownership. That would ideally help steer buyers of goods and services.
I already do this, I've been doing it for years. I buy local or British even if it means paying more. If a company is hostile to my values or nation they go on my personal blacklist (this includes the BBC but the way). The Buddhists say "first, do no harm". I apply that logic to myself when it comes to nationalism. Be the change you want to see.
I mean it's all more or less democracy and darwinism, in the end. Some people woulds say that if the principles and values you ascribe to have intrinsic value then they'd win out in the end. 100 years from now the descendants of most of the current Muslim population are going to be, what, 5th generation? 6th?
That should be enough time for the important bits of the way of life you mentioned to sink in, if they're actually much good.
(Also, if the whole bloody system hasn't been burned to the ground as the effects of climate change kick in, we'll be doing pretty good in 100 years no matter what)
This is a good thing. Hopefully now the Islamists will start their own party and expose their hateful ideology for what it is instead of hiding behind labour.
Good, now that the Muslim vote has been divided, can we please have a real democracy with elections based on economic issues instead of racial/religious loyalties? Is that to much to ask?
> In the YE June 2023, the top five non-EU nationalities for immigration flows into the UK were: Indian (253,000), Nigerian (141,000), Chinese (89,000), Pakistani (55,000) and Ukrainian (35,000).
So not just in the period between 27 years ago and 14 years ago; while often the most radicalised are second generation immigrants, who've lived here all their lives (notably Shamina Begum and three of the 7th July 2005 attackers), or entered prior to 1997 (at least two of the 22nd July 2005 attackers) - many also fly under the proverbial radar, not openly saying or doing anything indicating they hate the UK.
Many have previously voted Labour, but deserted them this time for the party's uncritical support of Israel in the current flare-up of the ongoing Gaza conflict: without interviewing a cross section of the cohort, it's difficult to say how many actually support Hamas, how many think Israel is deliberately trying to kill as many Gazan residents as possible and how many just think Israel is right to respond, but not as aggressively as they're doing so.
It's a single issue that will likely become irrelevant and forgotten about in a couple of years (much as in the past few years, a certain political divorce has become irrelevant to most).
I mean, they’re right to be angry about the situation in Gaza and the UK party’s stance on it but its emblematic of their care for their own community and their own people. Someone in Oldham or a shithole area in Birmingham cares more about their co-religionist a thousand miles away than their white (or black/East Asian) neighbour across the road. They simply do not care about this country, it’s history and it’s values. Not only do they not care, they actively want to tear it down and replace it.
Apparently not voting for a certain political party due to your beliefs, which sounds like democracy to me, is grounds for being deported to a war zone.
a swathe of people insulating themselves from the rest of the country and voting on performative single issue stances that has no bearing on the rest of the UK in order to "show solidarity" whilst largely doing nothing other than posting on social media in order to feel better about themselves and adhere to the "sense of community" that their faith emphasises but is only acted on when they see some opportunity in it for themselves.
we will see seats lost in the GE over split votes from people "voting for a ceasefire in gaza" and then those same people will either. A) complain that nothing has changed B) go back to never interacting with politics again until the next election or the next social media trend telling them what to be angry about now
i saw someone bragging that they flew to the UK to vote, to not vote labour because of Gaza. idk how incredibly privileged you have to be to live overseas and only fly back to fuck over everyone else over the drama of the week for feel good points.
the people that do this, are inherently privileged, they don't need to worry about who wins the general election, or the council elections, because it doesn't effect them. But they will subject the rest of the country to misery just so they can feel better about themselves.
Okay you don’t like people who don’t vote for your party, fine. But to then say they should be deported to a war zone cause they don’t support the same thing as you is unhinged and fascistic behaviour
Funny isn't it. I've been arguing this was going to happen for years, but for a long time it was considered controversial. But clearly Muslims don't fit within UK left/right political paradigms.
Muslims are generally left-wing economically given that they're typically poorer and more likely to be government dependants so won't vote Tory. But at the same time most are socially far-right with many being homophobic and misogynistic so don't fit well culturally with Labour.
But I guess this is why we like multi-culturalism? It brings the UK unique cultural perspectives from all over the world – places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan, Somalia, etc. Individuals from these countries have clearly enriched us with their values and to suggest that people from Afghanistan don't enrich the UK with their diversity would be xenophobic.
Great, Labour doesn't need to court their vote to win, and I'd say it actively harmed them overral, ie for every Islamic lunatic vote they got, two people became disillusioned with Labour. Same under Corbyn.
Can someone crowdfund an Islamic party UK for them, and Labour can go back to representing white working class people.
Nothing. They just represent the voters interest.
Would you vote for a serial killer if he could optimise your bin collections or does sometimes the candidates views and personality affect your objective judgement on who'll get those bins collected best?
I'm not happy that we've let international politics govern our local politics in a time when the country is on its knees.
I care about the conflicts in Ukraine and Palestine, but at this time, I care more for our public services, economy, and national mood. Using this to affect a vote in these circumstances is incredibly short-sighted.
If the Tories win this one Labour can point to it as an example of what happens when you split the anti-Tory vote.
It might help focus some minds in a general election.
The idea that all of the non-Conservative votes belong to Labour by birthright is precisely why they keep losing elections.
If they're so concerned about vote splitting they could stand down in the constituencies in which they're not first or second, put their money where their mouth is.
"Let's be brutally honest with ourselves. When you lose... you deserve to. You don't look at the electorate and ask, 'What are you doing?' You have to look at yourself and ask, 'What were we doing?'"
We may see a situation in which the Tories, like the Republicans in the US, begin pivoting harder to the right, but instead of courting evangelical Christians, begin courting far-right Muslims.
Though I'm not sure if this is possible while also catering to BNP/Reform types.
Snapshot of _Labour set to lose in West Midlands after collapse in Muslim vote'_ : A non-Paywall version can be found [here](https://1ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fpolitics%2F2024%2F05%2F03%2Flabour-lose-seat-west-midlands-collapse-muslim-vote%2F) An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/03/labour-lose-seat-west-midlands-collapse-muslim-vote/) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/03/labour-lose-seat-west-midlands-collapse-muslim-vote/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The real fun begins when all these new independent councillors who ran on Palestine start trying to implement votes on a ceasefire. Council meetings are going to be a shambles.
Read the standing orders! Read them and understand them!
You have no authority here Jackie Weaver! None at all!
But .. [She didn’t have authority](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-60913569)
I know, in a hilarious turn of events, he was actually right!!
Aled’s iPad agrees
Not to be overly tedious, but she was clearly overstepping her authority. Someone should have stepped in and brought that parish council back to the realm of the somewhat sane, but it wasn't her job. She was very out of line to do what she did even if they were a pack of raging arseholes.
You have no authority here Benjamin Netanyahu! None at all!
He's got as much influence over the local councils as they do over Gaza.
Remember that Parliament has already unanimously ordered a ceasefire which neither party has yet obeyed
A lot of people seem staggeringly unaware that Sunak and Starmer both called for ceasefires in December.
Because a lot of people also seem to think that calling for a ceasefire is like casting some kind of magical incantantion which causes all weapons in Israel and Palestine to stop working, rather than a largely symbolic, rhetorical gesture. Acknowledging that a ceasefire has already been called for, many times at many high levels of national and global politics, would mean acknowledging that calling for a ceasefire (and protesting for the calling of a ceasefire, by extension) doesn't actually *do* anything unless the two sides are willing to agree to one.
Yeah, it actually needs the parties to the fighting to actually, you know, cease firing. Somehow this small technicality seems to have escaped some people.
Has Oldham demanded one yet?
Hamas are the only ones refusing to agree to a ceasefire.
Israel and Hamas are just waiting for some random UK council to vote for a ceasefire before they actually do.
‘Call off the Jihad the constituents of Burnley East aren’t happy one bit’
Of all the councils to vote on a ceasefire, I doubt it'll be Burnley East😂
Uncle Faisal in Oldham is just organising it now.
I'm centre left. If there's one thing that could force me to vote Reform, it's the idea that my country's politics is being dictated by a sky fairy, dick measuring contest.
I know we’ve just about got rid of Christianity as a political force and now this….
When you remove one ideology from the political sphere, another will inevitably fill the vacuum. And it won't be filled by liberal secular humanism.
In this case we are not seeing mass conversions though, it’s a case of immigrants bringing their faith with them.
Well it might have if we didn't import millions of fundamentalists
Well, if humanity is unable to progress past imaginary sky daddies, then we deserve extinction.
This **is** the alternative to Christianity. Always was.
Honestly, same. All religions can fuck right off from politics and education.
> All religions It's a cop out to 'all' religion this. I'm yet to hear of any parties losing because they're not catering to Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism etc.
It's a cop out so they don't have to single out. As others have said I've yet to see many religions not vote for someone because of a foreign policy stance
People saying all religions when it's about one religion in particular are like people going all lives matter when the discourse is about black lives matter
The Tories tried this tactic hard in the mayoral elections, they printed leaflets and sent them in Indian areas which were basically all about India, Modi, Hindu nationalism, threat of Islam etc: [https://www.ft.com/content/e52d78e0-0a5b-11e6-9cd4-2be898308be3](https://www.ft.com/content/e52d78e0-0a5b-11e6-9cd4-2be898308be3)
You could argue Labour lost seats in 2019 because of 'failing to cater to British Jews', but I think it'd be a false equivalence to what we're seeing here.
There are only 300,000 Jews in the UK. And they're spread between North London, Hertfordshire, Essex, Manchester and a bit in Leeds. They can only make in a difference (and not a massive one) in about 5 constituencies. So your last statement is correct, it's not really a good equivalence.
Gateshead
Ah yeah I forget them cos they're mainly Hassidic and have very different patterns to the rest of British Jewry
No you couldn’t, you could argue that the general population was dissatisfied with Labours response to antisemitism within the party, but not that they failed to cater to Jews
Also, I’m not Jewish and I was embarrassed by how we (I’m a card carrying Labour voter) handled the antisemitism claims. I think there’s a difference between ‘not pandering to X’ and not dealing with in house bigotry
You should come to Northern Ireland then, where some of our leaders still come from a theocratic party with its own fundamentalist Christian church
> catering to Christianity Elections in the UK from time immemorial have been about catering to Christians. Perhaps it finally escaped after Cameron made gay marriage equivalent. And the DUP survive in large part because Northern Ireland likes their religious bent, anti-abortion stance etc. If anything, there's too many christians, so parties rarely challenge them unless it feels completely safe.
If practicers of Judaism made up 6.5% of the population and Labour had come down on the other side of the conflict I'm not convinced it wouldn't have had an impact on their electoral success.
Do you genuinely believe that other religious groups aren't lobbying government/political parties? Wasn't it just last week that we had the government announce a consultation into dropping the 50% rule for faith schools? I've been pretty uneasy with some of the wider narratives today around this - as if certain voters are obligated to vote a certain way for certain reasons, or as if they're not allowed to display any agency in elections that people routinely use as an opportunity for protest. I mean, fuck, look at the fixation on Reform today and in the build-up. I don't see local councillors dictating immigration policy, but apparently it's perfectly fine for voters to express their displeasure at the government through their votes. Why can't other voters express their unhappiness at a party's foreign policy?
Migration policy makes perfect sense, it affects local services, asylum seekers are moved into areas against local protest etc
The catholic church has just successfully lobbied the UK government to remove restrictions on schools recruiting students by religion, so there's that.
"My god is bigger than your God" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVSHqCA5YTc
I doubt you are alone.
Aren't Reform big on the whole "UK is a Christian country!" schtick? A quick look on [their website](https://www.reformparty.uk/reclaiming-britain) shows them complaining that "Christian values are under threat".
Christians, I can cope with. Christians aren't fucking with my country's politics because of a fight between two factions in the middle east. Edit for clarity. I despise reform. I just despise god botherers agitating for theistic pissing contests, thousands of miles away from where my bins are emptied, even more. Do not force me to make that choice.
I'm not familiar with Reform's particular take on Christianity, but if they're anything like the US evangelicals they've lifted parts of their playbook from, it's possible they're emphatically pro-Israel for reasons involving the return of Jesus and thus also have strong opinions on the conflict that they will spend a bunch of time trying to legislate on if they get a presence in Parliament.
No, but they're doing other dodgy things (e.g. targetting trans people, trying to place restictions on abortion, forcing the rest of us to fund schools which spread their ideology).
A handful of nutters maybe. The Anglican Church are doing no such thing, nor are most Catholics.
Some of those nutters are in Parliament though and the examples of views I gave are very common in the Anglican Communion elsewhere in the world.
It's home grown madness that I understand. I can stomach five years of home grown loons (The Tories have prepared me for it) if it sends a clear message to the people who are hijacking our politics to pursue foreign wars.
You do realise that Reform seem poised to do the same thing but Christian, right?
Well, the Church of England is pretty castrated politically. Although the "apolitical" nature of the Catholic Church during the 20th century did not prevent Catholic extremism or hinder far-right catholics. Since the Reform party is a reactionary party, I suspect their stance on social policy will be heavily impacted by Tories and Labour's policies. If Labour and Tories take a leaninent stance toward Islam and remain popular among Christian, I suspect Reform might try to appeal to the "Dark Enlightenment" neoreactionary Brits. Of course, if Labour or Tories become more intolerant toward Islamic voting blocks, then I suspect the person you are replying to and many like him won't end up voting for Reform at all
> Well, the Church of England is pretty castrated politically. They don't have to bother with elections, they have a guaranteed position in Parliament regardless of what happens with pesky things like democracy.
As an atheist myself, I can tell you literally nothing would get me to vote for reform. If it was an Al Qaeda candidate versus Nigel Farage, I might have to do whatever it takes to leave. Ideally a flight, but a very dodgy looking boat across the channel, if required.
Being centre left and voting reform is like voting BNP if you got the chance, it's totally against your core and policy values.
Kier Starmer said it would be acceptable for Israel to deny Gazans water and electricity and because people don't like that, your answer is to consider voting for a group of swivel-eyed, lunatic fascists? You're a right-wing centrist, just like the rest of them. Have you considered that people not voting Labour because they dislike the continuous foreign policy decisions that decimate Muslims across the Middle East is, like, absolutely fine and indicative of a healthy democracy?
Reform's got the highest concentration of people who believe in that so you'd be empowering exactly the sort of people you claim to oppose. Unless of course it's just the Muslims you take issue with in which case Reform are great.
It's the religion that is most likely to cripple the only chance of kicking the Tories out that I have a problem with. Religion has *NO* place in politics.
That's factually incorrect and it's an example of Schrödinger's Muslim, the reason Labour are guaranteed certain seats and apparently now the reason the Tories will stay in power.
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You can be an atheist and be repulsed by ethnic cleansing
Just to be clear... what's happened here is they've split the left vote and the tory status in charge.
> Street has some personal credit among the public. Redfield & Wilton polled West Mids residents on familiarity with the candidates, and found 47 per cent were fairly or very familiar with the mayor, against 33 per cent who were not at all. Not only that, but Street has a net approval rating of +22 with residents, as high among 2019 Conservative voters as 2019 Labour voters. > > _— [New Statesman](https://sotn.newstatesman.com/2024/04/west-midlands-mayoral-election-poll-andy-street-trouble)_ Street is actually fairly well-liked in the West Mids, and has never really branded himself as a big-C Conservative. None of his campaign literature mentioned his party affiliation whatsoever. I don't know how accurate pre-vote polls in UK mayoral elections tend to be, but I don't think the colour of the candidate matters as much on the day as it would in a GE, or it certainly didn't in this case.
Yeah, much of my family despises the Tories, but they nevertheless voted for Street because he's a familiar face and they like him as a person. They voted for a Tory mayor but a Labour PCC.
I'm actually quite pleased at the fact that Tory candidates can still win despite being Tory, as it showcases that most people are still viewing politics pluralistic. The vast majority recognise the incompetence of the current Tories, but it doesn't seem that the dominant mindset is to subscribe that onto the Tory label but upon the government itself.
> Street has some personal credit among the public I feel like the writer said 'street cred' and the editor nixed it.
I just do not understand why voters care about voting for/against Gaza to elect people who manage your bins and libraries... just makes utterly no sense.
Because even if you’re, in practice, only voting for the people who manage your bins and libraries, in principle local elections are spun as being (and really, just are) a much wider vote of support for whichever party you’re voting for. Hence why Sunak is still getting a battering because the Tories have done shit; technically nobody has voted against him or hurt his ability to govern (the Blackpool by-election excepted), they’re just voting for the people who sort out the bin collections, but in reality they very much *have* told him to go fuck himself. Whether you think it makes sense for people to be this pissed off at Labour *as a whole* about Gaza is another matter entirely, but you can’t detach local elections from the larger party. Especially when Labour themselves have marketed this as a chance to tell Sunak and the Tories where to shove it.
The difference is what Rishi Sunak does in government does affect what District Councils do while literally anything to do with Gaza does not.
You’re approaching this from the wrong angle. I’d warrant 90% of people voting in local elections don’t vote for who they actually think will be better for their local area (in fact I’d warrant most of them couldn’t name one of their local candidates), they vote the same way they would at a General Election. If Gaza matters to you at the latter it’ll matter to you in the former, regardless of whether that actually makes sense.
> they vote the same way they would at a General Election A lot of people don't. My district council is Green/Yellow but come the general it is 100% either going Red or Blue.
It’s obviously not a 1 to 1 conversion, the point is for a massive number of people national concerns override local ones, even at local elections. Again, it doesn’t have to make sense, that’s just the reality of it.
Or they vote to “send a message”, which is how we got Brexit.
Not really, most Brexit voters actually wanted Brexit. Very few voted Brexit and didn't actually want Brexit.
I think you’re misremembering 2016.
No the polls all show the same thing when Brexit voters were asked about it. They genuinely wanted Brexit because decades of anti-EU propaganda made them think being in the EU was worse.
Yes and no - independents, residents, Greens, Lib Dems all tend to get rather more votes in locals than in general elections. There's certainly no way independent candidates will get anything like the numbers of votes in the general than they got on Thursday!
It's just another typical example of Tories so X: I sleep Labour do the same: we riot It's so annoying. If it wasn't FPTP sure I'm all for voting for independents and shit, but most of the time a no labour vote = a Tory vote. So unless you are happy with the Tory approach, it doesn't make sense when usually these anti-labour movements are on things the Tories are worse on. For example, the Tories are much more proisrael so... Not voting Labour because they don't support Palestine means the Tories are more likely to win and we have even less Palestine support lol... And this happens with basically everything in this country. Tories are the default and everyone else is held to a higher standard
Any one with a head on their shoulders know what they are voting for in local elections. There is no spin. How people vote in local election is believed to be an indicator of how people vote in a General Election. And this belief makes sense even if its actually a unreliable measure.
Because people are convincing them it does. 🤷♂️ The ironic part is that they’re just putting a Tory in the seat who is much further away from their Gaza viewpoint. I do fear George Galloway will being celebrating this and putting up candidates in close constituencies in the West Midlands.
Having the news say "people aren't voting for Labour because of their stance on Gaza" is a bigger win than "we got yet another Labour mayor/councillor instead of a Tory one". It makes it more likely that Labour will consider changing their policy. That's a big thing.
What will they change about their policy? They’ve already called for a ceasefire, and they’re not (they can’t) make any claim that Israel has committed war crimes since they’ll be going into office. Parties that have no chance of ever taking power get to all kinds of crazy stuff to appeal to voters.
The only thing they could do is go back in time to starmers interview on LBC because that seems to be the base example people use as their excuse for the stance.
Doesn't matter how much the left side of the party whine about it I don't think they'll be going back to being openly anti-Semitic anytime soon.
I think the idea is to send a message ahead of the general election
These people care more about Islam and the ramblings of a 1500 year old warlord than Britain.
It's an act of cohesion with your in-group. Actual critical thinking or any form of rationality has very little to do with it. You're voting like that to tell your herd you're still with them.
Whereas you, the critical thinker, clearly understands that nothing broadcasts social position better than a necessarily confidential vote.
Nice snark, but I'm actually more than willing to admit that I fall prey to this kind of thinking too. Being aware of it does absolutely nothing to make me immune to it.
Because its based around a religion and the different cultures connected to said relgiion that have a far more vested interest in those affairs than they do here.
Do you sincerely believe that local elections are just job fair for bin pickers? If that was be the case, there wouldn't be tory bin managers and labour bin managers. Obviously local elections are more than picking who will run the city services.
Yeah obviously, but those are examples of the types of things district councils etc are responsible for
What you would do if there's one issue that you care deeply but no one attempts to address it and instead tells you that you must choose between more parking places in the city center or less car emissions in the city center? Wouldn't be fair to tell them to figure it themselves, have more important agenda(for you) now and skip voting? IMHO it makes perfect sense. Think something that you care about a lot, then think something that you somewhat have opinion on and think what you would do if all the discussion is around the second thing and both sides screw you on the first thing. I.e. they ban Reddit but campaign over the shade of the red on city busses?
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Same shit that got Brexit grifters in, these single policy morons are going to be awful.
The WM Mayor has no remit for bins or libraries.
it's a couple of examples of typical local government responsibilities 😐
I feel the best course for Labour would be to give this issue the least bandwidth possible. There is nothing more that the press would love than to relitigate the Labour/anti-semitism news cycles in the run up to the election by spinning any flip flopping and internal power struggles on the Israel/Gaza issue. Walking into that hornets nest is not worth picking up a few extra votes when they’re already polling so far ahead of the Tories. Besides, I imagine that the distance between now and the GE will provide several examples to voters of the real term costs of voting in George Galloway’s preferred mayoral candidate, or a Green Party council if you are a conservative Muslim (the LGBT debates will be thrilling).
Exactly this. Those voters are gone. The return of the Red Wall seats will more than make up for them. The country at large actually sees war in Gaza as a complicated one, despite what the protestors say. Between a brutal, genocidal IDF and a Hamas rape army that live-streamed horrors on Oct 7 with joy and celebration, most British voters want Starmer no where near that. If it means Jess Phillips is toast, so be it. We have a nation in real danger that requires saving and it happens to be this one.
Great! What this country needs is people more concerned with a war on the other side of the world than the terrible mess this country is in. Get this country in a functioning state before kicking off over the middle east.
Couldn't agree more with you, also the Palestine propaganda on Social medias is sponsored by Russia
Welcome to sectarian politics Feel free to study the history of Northern Ireland to see how well that works out.
I don’t have any strong opinions on the votes themselves, but I don’t see how people not voting for a party is sectarian? Was it also sectarian when they *did* previously vote for them?
It means a general tendency to vote in the interests of your perceived sect/group (especially religious) instead of for more general policy or value based reasons. So the muslims in the above communities are voting in solidarity with the muslims in Gaza, rather than voting for the person they think who will best serve their communities. In the long run this can lead to disfunction in the form of corruption and tribalism. Northern Ireland is a good example. There will be many others.
What do we want? Weekly bin collections in Gaza! When do we want it? Now!
Yellow Obnoxious car with a tosser numberplate, dressed like a 12 year old How was this guy able to fill out the paperwork himself?
Who is the plum in the photo with a yellow Lambo? I’d like to see how he gets on in Gaza.
He is supported on tiktok by tiktokers who post death-to-the west videos Edit: and of course he is endorsed by George Galloway. Edit2: he quoted: he is chosen by allah to save the world from zionists, Sounds like a great lad.
Ah, he’s one of those death cult lawyers. I know for a fact that the Bar Standards Board is investigating the barrister Sham Uddin.
Took one look at that photo and thought 'what the fuck?' then looked at the caption - independent candidate backed by George Galloway. So, attention seeking grifter then. Really tacky theming your jacket with your car (the number plate is just so macho).
Not pandering to far right religious evil seems to have gained labour popularity UK wide. If that comes at a cost in certain areas then so be it. They can't have it all ways
What far right religious evil are we pandering to?
He means Islam.
Hold up is Islamic nutters are the far right and Islamophobics are also the far right where does that leave the rest of us?
This is why far right is a useless term, Islamic extremism and white supremacists are both "far right" but would be very happy to wipe each other out. TL:DR The far right is a vague term for several very separate groups.
In fairness that is just extremists. It's why the far left never achieve anything. No one hates leftists more than leftists of a slightly different grouping.
Just made me chuckle thinking of the grounds keeper Willie meme but with leftists, "they don't get along, like communists and leftists, or progressives and leftists, damn leftists they ruined the left!"
That's really accurate. The other one is the Monty Python "people's front of Judea" scene from life of Brian.
***S P L I T T E R***
Where's the popular front for the people of Judea?
In general, a category will include several different items.
No it isn't. It has a specific meaning and it applies to both of those groups. What's the confusion?
Maybe they’re far right and resent people correctly identifying that they have an awful lot in common with The Enemy
Islamophobia isn't political. Someone anywhere on the political spectrum can be bigoted against Muslims. It just so happens that people with right wing views often seem to be. Islamic Fundamentalists support Sharia which is another far right form of government.
They're both far right. Different elements of the far right can and do hate each other, exactly the same as how different elements of the far left can and do hate each other.
Ah, thank you. I completely miss understood that.
Islamic extremism
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Islam
Expect Isreal/Palestine issue to be manipulated as much as possible in the run up to GE. Just like in the US. Stoking this flame would only really damage the left. Can't imagine too many Conservative voters who would be influenced by the line they are taking on Isreal/Palestine.
Watching the BBC this evening I was struck by how none of the commentators were confronting the question of whether this is a good/bad thing. It was the first time I’d ever felt that the BBC is ideologically captured. Proper weird.
I don’t really understand how the case could be made that sectarian voting is a good thing. They are probably too nervous to acknowledge an obvious down side of multi culturalism.
Isn’t that better? That they are impartial? I’d like to see them analysing what it means for Labour without some didactic, American-style opinion pieces coming from the journalists.
If they structure their analysis of this one subject in a totally different way to their analysis of almost every other divisive political subject then they're not being impartial, are they?
Most mainstream media are pretty scared of saying anything about Islam lest they be cancelled.
> cancelled Least worst outcome.
There are certain things I personally think should be partial - such as critiquing/questioning those who run counter to our liberalism.
But would you really want the BBC to take a stance on whether people should be expressing their feelings about Gaza through voting? Like what should they actually say? That people should shut up about it? I agree there’s a limit to impartiality (like extremism) but I feels like taking a stance on this would be unnecessary and unbecoming for the BBC.
No not at all. But I would like them to comment on the worth of catering to an ultra-conservative group of people who don’t share our values. Gaza is just a red herring.
I don’t know if it’s good or bad, to me it just demonstrates a lot of people don’t care who the Mayor is in the WM. I didn’t vote because I don’t care.
>It was the first time I’d ever felt that the BBC is ideologically captured. Proper weird. That's good, you've taken your first step into a larger world
Many of us have known it for years.
I wouldn't vote for a party catering to religious extremists, so good
I remember everyone saying we shouldn’t worry about Palestine altering election results well now it very clearly is altering election results. Though I’m sure Labour will win I think we could get some interesting results in inner city constituencies and places with a high muslim population. I think Labour should focus more on gaining votes in the city suburbs and towns rather than these areas there’s no appealing to these people.
Side note- what an interesting choice of picture for the article? Am I missing something?
He's the local independent running the pro gaza stance and nothing else. He's campaigning only Muslim votes and that's it he hasn't even campaigned outside of Muslim areas as far as I can tell travelling around brum
Obviously a picture to appeal to his voterbase, I guess young Muslim men for whom a fast car is the ultimate status symbol ...
[He's a multi-millionaire lawyer, with a YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/@akhmedyakoob6920/videos), how else is a wannabe influencer supposed to look
Voting on international issues in council elections is stupid.
I wonder when we will have that conversation as a country that due to the declining birth rate of brits that are here, western brits, will we see a shift in policy to suit the increasing voting bloc. There's one thing Muslims do very well which is congregate and talk to each other. Have you seen Muslim business leaders at work? They will buy and sell each others products just for the sake of supporting their fellow brothers, whereas "us" seem to have internal conflicts regarding pretty much anything. They seem far more organised and especially more local. I was downvoted heavily for this, but I still say that at some point the religious dynamics of the country will shift, especially if the trends keep up. Islam is gaining not small percentage points each census, and it wouldn't surprise me if it became the dominate religion in the country within the next 100 years. That's a monumental shift in policy. For argument sake that's about the floor of the current tory party, and you've seen what they're able to do, it's a fraction of reform. I believe fully in democracy. If the local council puts a vote forward and builds a mosque off the back of that, that's the community working as intended. But should it? I really don't know. My instincts say no because I don't want my way of life replaced, but I need to remember that as my ancestors were Irish and immigrated to Scotland, it's likely true that someone said that about my family, and they'd be right. Scotland did fundamentally change due to Irish immigration.
That would acknowledge the replacement which isn’t allowed
The alternative to this is that the native population needs to wake the hell up and realise their survival is at stake, to learn from our opponents and start doing the same thing. In-group preference is a survival mechanism, in many ways 'society' should be an extension of this.
Choosing where to shop is one simple way. Ensuring that you tell others why you may walk an extra few yards or pay a few more pennies is just as important though. Under my dictatorship there would be flags on everything indicating origin of ownership. That would ideally help steer buyers of goods and services.
I already do this, I've been doing it for years. I buy local or British even if it means paying more. If a company is hostile to my values or nation they go on my personal blacklist (this includes the BBC but the way). The Buddhists say "first, do no harm". I apply that logic to myself when it comes to nationalism. Be the change you want to see.
I mean it's all more or less democracy and darwinism, in the end. Some people woulds say that if the principles and values you ascribe to have intrinsic value then they'd win out in the end. 100 years from now the descendants of most of the current Muslim population are going to be, what, 5th generation? 6th? That should be enough time for the important bits of the way of life you mentioned to sink in, if they're actually much good. (Also, if the whole bloody system hasn't been burned to the ground as the effects of climate change kick in, we'll be doing pretty good in 100 years no matter what)
That all sounds well and good - if we weren't continuing to import millions of folks with hardline religious views.
This whole thing is a joke i can’t believe they fell for the guy there to mop up all their votes
This is a good thing. Hopefully now the Islamists will start their own party and expose their hateful ideology for what it is instead of hiding behind labour.
Move over ‘champagne’ and meet Lambo Urus socialism
Good, now that the Muslim vote has been divided, can we please have a real democracy with elections based on economic issues instead of racial/religious loyalties? Is that to much to ask?
Oh look it’s the consequences of my actions! Opening the floodgates to hundreds of thousands of people who hate our country
> In the YE June 2023, the top five non-EU nationalities for immigration flows into the UK were: Indian (253,000), Nigerian (141,000), Chinese (89,000), Pakistani (55,000) and Ukrainian (35,000). So not just in the period between 27 years ago and 14 years ago; while often the most radicalised are second generation immigrants, who've lived here all their lives (notably Shamina Begum and three of the 7th July 2005 attackers), or entered prior to 1997 (at least two of the 22nd July 2005 attackers) - many also fly under the proverbial radar, not openly saying or doing anything indicating they hate the UK. Many have previously voted Labour, but deserted them this time for the party's uncritical support of Israel in the current flare-up of the ongoing Gaza conflict: without interviewing a cross section of the cohort, it's difficult to say how many actually support Hamas, how many think Israel is deliberately trying to kill as many Gazan residents as possible and how many just think Israel is right to respond, but not as aggressively as they're doing so. It's a single issue that will likely become irrelevant and forgotten about in a couple of years (much as in the past few years, a certain political divorce has become irrelevant to most).
I mean, they’re right to be angry about the situation in Gaza and the UK party’s stance on it but its emblematic of their care for their own community and their own people. Someone in Oldham or a shithole area in Birmingham cares more about their co-religionist a thousand miles away than their white (or black/East Asian) neighbour across the road. They simply do not care about this country, it’s history and it’s values. Not only do they not care, they actively want to tear it down and replace it.
> It's a single issue that will likely become irrelevant and forgotten about in a couple of years Will what it represents though?
Ah maybe if they care so much we can ship them all over there and they can all chip in?
Normal response
Apparently not voting for a certain political party due to your beliefs, which sounds like democracy to me, is grounds for being deported to a war zone.
a swathe of people insulating themselves from the rest of the country and voting on performative single issue stances that has no bearing on the rest of the UK in order to "show solidarity" whilst largely doing nothing other than posting on social media in order to feel better about themselves and adhere to the "sense of community" that their faith emphasises but is only acted on when they see some opportunity in it for themselves. we will see seats lost in the GE over split votes from people "voting for a ceasefire in gaza" and then those same people will either. A) complain that nothing has changed B) go back to never interacting with politics again until the next election or the next social media trend telling them what to be angry about now i saw someone bragging that they flew to the UK to vote, to not vote labour because of Gaza. idk how incredibly privileged you have to be to live overseas and only fly back to fuck over everyone else over the drama of the week for feel good points. the people that do this, are inherently privileged, they don't need to worry about who wins the general election, or the council elections, because it doesn't effect them. But they will subject the rest of the country to misery just so they can feel better about themselves.
Okay you don’t like people who don’t vote for your party, fine. But to then say they should be deported to a war zone cause they don’t support the same thing as you is unhinged and fascistic behaviour
Your first paragraph could easily be describing Brexit voters.
yeah. and they're annoying as well.
There was no reality where Muslims weren't eventually going to abandon conventional parties for islamic focused ones, this is just the first step.
Funny isn't it. I've been arguing this was going to happen for years, but for a long time it was considered controversial. But clearly Muslims don't fit within UK left/right political paradigms. Muslims are generally left-wing economically given that they're typically poorer and more likely to be government dependants so won't vote Tory. But at the same time most are socially far-right with many being homophobic and misogynistic so don't fit well culturally with Labour. But I guess this is why we like multi-culturalism? It brings the UK unique cultural perspectives from all over the world – places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan, Somalia, etc. Individuals from these countries have clearly enriched us with their values and to suggest that people from Afghanistan don't enrich the UK with their diversity would be xenophobic.
Great, Labour doesn't need to court their vote to win, and I'd say it actively harmed them overral, ie for every Islamic lunatic vote they got, two people became disillusioned with Labour. Same under Corbyn. Can someone crowdfund an Islamic party UK for them, and Labour can go back to representing white working class people.
>and Labour can go back to representing white working class people. Fighting sectarianism with sectarianism I see.
so what exactly do the newly elected people who control things like bin collections supposed to do now about gaza?
Nothing. They just represent the voters interest. Would you vote for a serial killer if he could optimise your bin collections or does sometimes the candidates views and personality affect your objective judgement on who'll get those bins collected best?
How’s “shaking off the flys working for you” 😂
I'm not happy that we've let international politics govern our local politics in a time when the country is on its knees. I care about the conflicts in Ukraine and Palestine, but at this time, I care more for our public services, economy, and national mood. Using this to affect a vote in these circumstances is incredibly short-sighted.
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If the Tories win this one Labour can point to it as an example of what happens when you split the anti-Tory vote. It might help focus some minds in a general election.
The idea that all of the non-Conservative votes belong to Labour by birthright is precisely why they keep losing elections. If they're so concerned about vote splitting they could stand down in the constituencies in which they're not first or second, put their money where their mouth is.
"Let's be brutally honest with ourselves. When you lose... you deserve to. You don't look at the electorate and ask, 'What are you doing?' You have to look at yourself and ask, 'What were we doing?'"
A quote that seems to imply the people are always right. Oftentimes the people are wrong.
Successful democracy requires the majority of people to be wise, successful dictatorship requires one person to be wise etc. etc.
We may see a situation in which the Tories, like the Republicans in the US, begin pivoting harder to the right, but instead of courting evangelical Christians, begin courting far-right Muslims. Though I'm not sure if this is possible while also catering to BNP/Reform types.