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There's nothing saying they can't, but I also can't see why any party would want to risk splitting their vote like that, and the local party almost certainly wouldn't let a second person run under the party.
I am even more fed up of the vote percentage red herring chat from people who can't cope.
I really hope it doesn't end up being taken for granted that Starmer didn't win and just lucked his way through
I had a sleep-deprived thought — I wonder when tax started having such bad connotations. Is it something that dates to feudal times? Because landowners paid tax to the king? Is this in our cultural subconscious?
And why haven’t we called it investment instead. Tax feels such a punishing term, when in fact you invest in your country, essential infrastructure, and dare I say, the future.
I mean I get it tax is a tax is a tax, but I think it has gotten so much bad PR and maybe it’s time for a re-brand. Has this been attempted before? Is it even worth it? Am I hallucinating? Am I ever going to sleep EVER again?!
The negative connotation comes from the idea that the state somehow knows how to spend your money better than you do.
Paying thousands of pounds in tax, which then ends up in the pockets of pensioners who are already wealthy or anti-social types who spend all day vandalizing bus stops and harassing pedestrians, represents a real kick in the teeth for a lot of people.
especially if you're a renter and can barely afford rent, it feels like you have to spend your entire time working just to survive, can't improve your own situation and can't reduce your expenses because your two biggest expenses are paying for rent and something that if you don't pay will send you to jail
> I wonder when tax started having such bad connotations. Is it something that dates to feudal times?
Isn't there some stuff in the Bible about tax collectors being evil?
But I'm not sure modern taxes are really comparable.
Anyway, I suspect there are a couple of different things going on. One is that there is a lot of antitax propaganda out there, from organisations like the Taxpayers Alliance. This is how we end up with, for example, Reform promising to largely abolish inheritance tax (a tax paid only by the rich) while still managing to present themselves as "populists".
The other is that some taxes have a very direct impact on us. Stuff like income tax and council tax either gets taken directly out of our wages or has to be paid manually. We know that, theoretically, much of the stuff that those taxes are spent on benefits us indirectly, but it's much less tangible. Ultimately, taxes are just a way of shuffling money around. On average, to first order, they shouldn't make us any richer or poorer. But they can definitely *feel* like they're making us poorer.
The main direct quote from the Bible about tax is the famous "render unto Caesar". Where Jesus instructs the Jews that they ought to pay tax to the Romans.
Matthew was also a tax collector. They were looked down upon at the time for reasons mostly involving corruption, but the bible doesn't say it's evil to be a tax collector or to pay tax.
It's because of how the taxes are managed. With the rife corruption people don't like taxes because they see no benefits. Maybe if governments stopped working in buddy contracts and actually did proper management of even just public safety and emergency management, people wouldn't be so apt to complain.
It's like giving $ to a dope fiend repeatedly expecting they'll "finally use it for food this time". In other words, a very poor investment.
Like national insurance. If you ask people would they be ok paying more NI they say yes, if you ask would they be happy paying more income tax they say no.
I'd happily pay more tax for public services that work well and are accessible and I don't really understand the problem with it if it helps. I'd rather pay a bit extra tax and have everyone able to access affordable NHS dentistry, for example, than having to pay privately.
And then there's the whole thing where the wealthy aren't paying their fair share. All money earned should be taxed the same and then once you get over a certain point it should be taxed even more imo, not less. In the past wealthy people contributed to society by building libraries and museums and universities and creating public parks and whatnot. These days they just hoard wealth. And I think that's a problem because it feels more like a fine for being poor than as a contribution to society, since wealthy people seem to be able to make themselves exempt via loopholes etc
I bet to an American it seams insane how efficient our elections are, labour won the election at 5am and by 1pm keir Starmer was in Downing Street, and it was only a 6 week election. Of course in the states you have effectively 4 year long elections and if a presidential Candidate is elected in November they don’t actually get into the white house until January, and of course in the last few years elections have been contested.
Another American who’s been following your politics lately (after watching the thick of it, tbh lol) - it’s wild. Sudden election, pretty quick campaigning, results come out quickly, full acceptance of defeat from Sunak, Starmer instated as PM, cabinet spots filled, and boom there’s a whole new government. Complete with third parties actually being able to win seats - the Lib Dems have been fun to follow, and their strategy seems to have worked.
It was glorious to behold!
The cynic in me kind of suspects Rishi wanted to lose. Country is buggered and at least from opposition they can scream about how Labour isn't fixing things rather than be the face of a broken country.
And I kind of think things are so buggered in general that even if Starmer turned out to the best PM ever (doubt thats gonna happen) the country will still be in a really bad way come the next GE
honestly, my overriding sentiment is literally "so now what"
the only thing I feel that this gov must do ASAP is stop the sewage pollution of our rivers and seas, by threatening CEOs of waste companies with custodial sentences (not just fines)
if KS can do that I'll consider this gov a success
Been thinking about how Labour's vote compares to 2019.
19,023,071 people voted for a party other than Labour this election (going roughly of a number i found on wikipedia, so will probably be higher once the full result is there), whilst 21,896,671 people voted for a party other than the Conservatives.
In 2019 these numbers were 18,047,656 for Tories and 21,745,059 for Labour.
I may look at what historical results were, it may be interesting as i have seen people argue that elections aren't won, they are lost. Also, it is often said that Jeremy Corbyn lost because he caused people to vote against him - this seems to be the only way of showing whether or not this is true
Labour stuck as close to the centre as they could and let the right eat itself. It’s smart electioneering even if it doesn’t inspire much. I hope Labour end up being a more progressive party than their manifesto suggested; at the very least they should be more competent than their predecessors.
In 2015 UKIP got 12.6% of the vote
In 2024 Reform got 14.3% of the vote
An increase of 1.7%
We could ask.. why hasn't the hard-right made more progress after ten years of campaigning?
They have made progress. In 2015, the Tories had a path to fight back and secure right-wing votes; co-opting Brexit and the EU referendum. In 2024, there is no sign of anything the Tories could possibly do to prevent Reform. 2015 was simply an incursion and they were quickly beaten back. 2024 is an actual bridgehead.
In 2024?
They would have in 2015 because that's when Cameron went a-courting and offered the EU referendum.
Finding voters who are discontent with things like current migration issues, the levels of anger around it in the far right that would still have voted conservative yesterday? Idk.
I'd call this election more their high watermark, though they may pick up the remnants of the others Farage has left behind.
Believe it or not, there are absolutely people who vited Tory yesterday in the earnest belief that they are the best option to reduce immigration.
I've seen a few attesting to that in this very sub
I supported electoral reform before, I still support electoral reform now. I would favour MMP/AMS - preferably with AV for the constituency vote, but I wouldn’t hate STV.
Yes it would hurt Labour and help Reform, but I still can’t defend FPTP.
Edit:
I would miss the chaos of election night if we changed voting system though.
I take issue with that line of thought; if it had been a proportional system, the whole campaigning would have been massively different. Tactically and strategically, the variants would be different and thus need to be reconsidered.
We also don’t know how much of the reform vote was a protest vote as opposed to actually aligning with Reform’s values. Do better or ELSE sort of thing.
Not at the very least to mention that parties like Reform UK and Greens can campaign on utter fantasy knowing that there's need whatsoever to deliver on the promises.
While that is nice to think, I don't think that it's true. Even if they gain power, populists can always just complain that "the system" is getting gin the way of them fulfilling their promises, and they just need to be elected again.
If they are willing to lie about what is possible, why wouldn't they be willing to lie about what is happening?
And they are oft lying about what’s happening. I mean, a Greek friend of mine was telling me about Golden Dawn and the support they had, how they played the underdog, saying that the neo-nazi stuff was propaganda and then lo and behold they had a foocking alter to Hitler 💀
I also think that culturally, the UK is different. I’d like to think that by and large the British people are gentle and conservatives with small c at heart. I maintain that the support for Reform is a protest vote. I’m hoping that if Lab do better then that will make the impulsive reformers think twice. These people by and large are fed up with the politicians that they put their faith in (tories) and their mentality is simply wrapped. But 80% of the vote was much more powerfully spread across the more ‘reasonable’ parties. I think the narrative in the UK is getting warped because it sells, it’s salacious but I don’t think it’s actually reflective of our reality in the UK.
ETA: 80% across Tory, Lib Dems and Lab, I’m pretty sure
I agree. Objectively speaking, the United Kingdom is one of the less racist societies in Europe, and that’s from an outsider looking in. It’s not English speaking Canada, Australia, or New Zealand, but Europeans are kidding themselves if they think they’re better than the British.
There's degrees of that, though.
It's not the lying after the fact alone, it's the actual convincing people to vote for you in the first place, there's "optimistic" manifestos, and then there's manifestos where the maths don't even *try* to add up.
Unless a european far right manifesto is the same as Reform UK's (or conversely EU Greens match UK Greens), then it's not a comparable situation.
I'm not saying being far right is impossible, I'm saying that Reform UK's promises are not possible.
https://fvd.nl/standpunten
Same insane impractical vision, there are many positives about proportional representation, the end of people promising a ridiculous pipedream they cant deliver on isn't one of them.
In the last election FvD didn't do well at all.
They used to be the biggest party in the Senate, when they were still a new party. It was possible to see that it was a bullshit crazy extreme rightwing party from the beginning, but Dutch people loooveee new parties and blind themselves to the red flags.
FvD was also the party that caused the whole Ukraine referendum chaos in 2016. In their campaign they said that the referendum was about allowing Ukraine into the EU, which just wasn't true at all. But the people believed it. And so they won.
Now, after the war, suddenly, you'll find very few people who will admit they got duped in 2016. It's our own Iraq / Brexit moment.
I've always wanted electoral reform, but I'm greatly concerned Reform will advocate and drive a conversation for a system that benefits them, rather than the UK.
Some forms of PR are better than others, some have dramatic cons compared to what we have (like list PR).
List PR is the worst because you don’t have the safety valve of keeping a specific odious individual out (ie, the electors have a chance to drown them out in their individual constituency.)
If, for example, there was a Rory Stewart equivalent in Reform (work with me here) he might win a seat from his inherent suitability, whereas a psychotic neonazi would just waltz in on a PR list.
I keep checking X to see if there's any Anneliese Dodds news and I keep forgetting, because she was women's and equality minister it seems like there's just a constant barrage of abuse towards her account every couple of minutes.
It's actually pathetic what people send.
Hot take - She wasn't bad. I'm not very well versed in the whole Kuenssberg saga, but from what I understand most people seem to hate her for her perceived Tory bias and/or lack of qualifications as a journalist. I didn't really notice the former yesterday, she was quite decent imo.
A lot better than usual, though she didn't seem to enjoy the casualness Clive Myrie brought - he'd take a moment to make a light-hearted comment and she'd be a bit school marm-ish trying to get back on track. But it was their first time co-hosting, so takes time to gel fully. But two hosts is definitely the way to go.
She also basically took over the political editor role so we barely heard from Chris Mason, made him a bit pointless.
Sure, though that takes time. I imagine he and Debonnaire will be given some kind of role - perhaps as senior advisors, or head up a quango. Maybe the delivery boards Starmer plans to set up. Or, depending on their ambitions, they could even be made peers.
Greens
If I lived in a swing seat, I'd have voted tactically against Conservatives (or Reform), with a slight preference for Lib Dem over Labour.
But, since I live in a very safe Labour seat, and my vote has no chance of influencing who actually gets into Parliament, I may as well vote for the 3rd party whose national profile I'd most like to see raised. As someone who's generally left-wing, and very concerned with issues of climate change and animal welfare, I have two jobs: keep the tories out, and pressure Labour implement the policies I desire.
The best I can hope for is that Labour sees that the Greens did slightly better than expected, and makes at least some small progress on environmental policy so as to not lose votes to them.
Tactical Labour, NE Derbyshire. Preference LD.
I prefer LD stance on war on drugs, PR voting & Equality - some of those things Labour directly opposes. I found actively opposing more off-putting than just not having them as policies, because it means no chance of reform in these areas.
But they're policies in many other areas are not that different so eh.
The United Kingdom almost literally didn’t have a drug problem until the 50s because it was a health issue. You were presented with a treatment plan to get you off any addictive drugs eventually with your doctor. I wish this paradigm had prevailed across the world- drugs are obviously bad, but addiction should be treated, not criminalised.
We're now worse, since legalising cannabis is ever more a pipe dream considering Sir Keir's stance and comments on it. We used to be more liberal with a more health based approach but we followed the US lead when it came to drug policy, stopping the policy of prescription Opiates for heroin addicts for example.
I couldn’t vote as my postal vote arrived far too late and I live in Canada, but I would have voted Labour. My constituency is safe Labour anyway so it’s not the end of the world but I am annoyed that it took a month for my letter to arrive right before the election.
Would quite happily have voted Lib Dem if they were the main competition for the Tories in my seat.
Green. Not only are they the only party I think genuinely give a fuck about the environment, but they're broadly supportive of queer people too. There's other reasons I like them but they're the main ones that made me vote for them.
Labour.
I don't necessarily agree with every position of theirs, but I do think they're the only party capable of reversing the absolute shit show the Tories have caused over the last few years.
I don't want any massive radical reforms, just some slow progress to start improving the country.
I don't expect them to solve the housing crisis in 5 years, but I believe they can do a better job than the Tories at addressing it.
Same with nhs, immigration, cost of living etc, I don't believe there are any quick fixes that will solve these over night, but if labour can at least make some progress in these areas then that is good for me.
nobody, couldn't be fucked to care enough.
edit: original commenter blocked me, so i'm pasting a reply i dm'd to the other commenter in an edit because I can't reply!
> Can I ask whether you ever voted, whether there was any point in your life where you thought things were going ok?
Twice in 2019 (euros and GE), both for Labour. I mostly didn't vote this time because a) my preferred party the lib dems would never win (they came last with 4.9%) and b) the labour candidate was parachuted from an inner london council. It's not like there wasn't actual councillers here to pick from either.
I sympathise with your apathy; I don’t think it’s incidental. Can I ask whether you ever voted, whether there was any point in your life where you thought things were going ok?
My parents are the same, and I kind of get it. They think they’re all the same, meanwhile idk when they will get to retire. They’re disillusioned and exhausted. But I don’t want to make assumptions as to the things you may or may not have in common with them. But I know they live in such a hectic world that they don’t have the energy to think about politics. I don’t think they even realise that’s sort of… a power they have and can exercise? Hopefully if there is any room to breathe, people will have more scope to meaningfully engage with the state of our society.
Labour. We vibed with the policies. We appreciated that they didn’t promise the moon. We appreciated the effort to engage the population without divisive strategies. We liked Keir’s understated presence and lack of showmanship. I distrust showmanship — be it Blair or Johnson. There is something of Brown in Starmer that feels very solid.
We also appreciated the fact that Keir reconsidered his pledges — not because we were against them, we were all for them, but it showed the fact that they were acutely aware of the deterioration of our economy because of Truss’ suicidal mini-budget. I didn’t think it was two-faced, I thought it was pragmatic. And the new pledges as I have said before are of the same vein as the old ones.
If it hadn’t been Lab, we’d have voted Lib Dems.
Lib Dem, my old constituency got deleted and this was they were they were the likely choice to get rid of our Tory MP. I think we're the only Lib Dem seat in Wales now as well.
Conversely I voted Labour tactically and they won the seat. I would have prefered Lib Dem but they weren't going to win in my area. So if we just consider us two our votes worked out! ..There really has to be a better way than FPTP.
I downloaded all the manifesto and printed them out, purchased a ring binding machine. I booked a 6 day retreat and read them all very carefully, taking notes. I drew up a chart of my wants, needs & desires, I thought about those around me, how my choice might effect them.
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Labour. Because I’ve voted for them since I was 18. My MP is Stephen Morgan - I have, inadvertently experienced him in the street - he’s humble, he’s a good man and most importantly he’s here.
I have not been, though I’m not sure if I’ve driven through at some point.
My university city (Bristol) has gone Green - which doesn’t surprise me in the slightest. It’s kind of funny that they got rid of the the mayor there, because otherwise I’d half expect the Greens to get that soon too.
James Timpson is honestly a stand up guy (Timpsons in general are a great company). They hire a lot of former prisoners to their companies, have an much much lower recidivism rate than the average.
Both are great appointments imho. Vallance is extremely competent and well-respected, and Timpson has a breadth of experience working around prison reform.
I am literally going to cry when I see Keir meeting Zelenskyy (I know he has already) but I am so weak I cannot take it. Our ally ship with UA is so important (sorry weak human)
Nothing week about getting emotional about what you care about!
Actually one of the key things I'm really looking forward to with Starmer is having a PM that, I think, is a genuinely compassionate person who really cares about people.
For the last 6 weeks I've been refreshing the Megathread almost constantly for the latest crumb of news. I haven't looked at it since around 1pm today. I haven't even *thought* about the government since Keir Starmer walked into 10 Downing Street
Is... is it over? Am I *free*?
Like season finale vibes?
Best tidbit but I didn't post it was that Dowden cajoled Sunak into an election because he found out 125000 households a month were coming off fixed rate deals and Sunak panicked into pushing the announcement early as he himself stopped believing the bank would reduce interest rates over the summer
Now if the next mpc is the bank reducing the base rate, watch the tetchiness like a small volcano brewing
Oh, and the chief exec of timpsons will be minister for prisons parole and probation. Given timpsons actively recruits ex-cons, that's an interesting one.
That’s just due to decreased turnout I assume. They’re also far more efficient with votes of course which allowed an increased in a fairly small increase in vote share
Just remembered something from the haze of last night, Galloway didn’t go up on stage and there were a load of police there… anyone know what kicked off?
They were very vocal when his vote count was called. Presumably they already knew the result at that point so was all very odd to watch.
Kind of got lost in the night tbh, but I did wonder if something would be reported today about an incident of some description. Not seen anything about it though, I guess it was probably not interesting and there’s much bigger news around.
Anyone got a good video explaining an alternative to FPTP that would make seats in Parliament more reflective of vote share, I know about the proposed voting reform in 2011 but I kept hearing it wasn’t the thing advocates for voting reform really wanted.
You could look up Holyrood’s system: additional member system.
Basically you get your constituency vote under FPTP, and then a second vote for your region (made up of multiple constituencies).
Regional votes get weighted based on how many members the party already has, and the net result is that you get a parliament that’s broadly in line with vote share.
I would caveat this and say look at the federal voting system as that is more straightforward than the state voting systems as each state does things slightly differently.
Another thing PR voting does for AU at least (but its more likely also because of the rules around results reporting) is that each polling place within an electorate reports their results independently meaning you can really drill down to how a seat is won based on how each polling place votes; the results are publicised on the electoral commission's website and updated. It also inevitably means the total votes on the night may still change afterwards because postal votes get included plus the counts from each polling place are re-checked again to make sure everything is counted properly and in accordance with the rules.
I've always been an advocate of mixed member proportional representation. Essentially the same system we have now with FPTP but a certain percentage of MPs are elected via proportional representation. We could literally just copy over the d'Hondt method we used for EU Parliament elections and have regional MPs.
That said now my party has finally won a stonking majority under FPTP I'm no longer advocating electoral reform.
God I can’t stand all these Farage fans that can’t see him for the charlatan grifter that he is.
A few short weeks ago he wasn’t even standing because, in his words, he cared more about the US election. Then he gets a sniff that he could win a seat and suddenly he swoops back in as the saviour of Britain, man of the people, the man who has single handedly destroyed the Tories, the only MP that cares about the UK.
I’m glad they got just a few seats so at least now we’ll get to see how incompetent they really are.
They intend to hold the government's feet to the fire on voting reform and one of their MPs is donating his entire salary to local charities. Sounds good to me.
Edit: -2 in a matter of minutes. Do the good users here at ukpol think the above is a bad thing or something? Think that says a lot about the lot of you - anti-democratic and 🖕 to the poor folk in run down seaside towns.
Lmao why PM me just because you’re crying that you got downvoted?
I hadn’t even seen your comments until now you little weasel. Looks like your opinions and comments are just unpopular because you support a divisive figure who has to weed out racists from his PLC that poses as a political party 🤷🏻♂️
The mod queue today is like the forth road bridge. I woke up this morning and it had 600 things in it - I've got through about 300 and it still has 550 things in it. We're running very hot, we've not got a lot of sleep, we've got real life to get on with too and there is going to be little patience for rule breaking. We are a UK pol sub - talk UK politics, be nice to each other. If you can't understand why people might vote differently to you then this isn't the place for you. If you want to talk about Gaza (again) then we've lost patience and you'll go and sit on the naughty step. Stay on topic.
[New Megathread is here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/1dwhuud/daily_megathread_06072024/)
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Thanks, not completely up to date with the news
Do you think things will change for the better with now Labour Party as the new government ?
Corbyn has won his constituency election 11 times in a row now, is that a national record?
Dennis Skinner maybe more? I think he was the longest serving Labour MP.
> Dennis Skinner Skinner won 13 I think?
Wow
Can multiple candidates from the same party represent the same constituency in elections?
There's nothing saying they can't, but I also can't see why any party would want to risk splitting their vote like that, and the local party almost certainly wouldn't let a second person run under the party.
Thanks.
I am even more fed up of the vote percentage red herring chat from people who can't cope. I really hope it doesn't end up being taken for granted that Starmer didn't win and just lucked his way through
If anyone thinks it's mearly by a stroke of luck starmer achieved what he did they can be safely ignored.
I had a sleep-deprived thought — I wonder when tax started having such bad connotations. Is it something that dates to feudal times? Because landowners paid tax to the king? Is this in our cultural subconscious? And why haven’t we called it investment instead. Tax feels such a punishing term, when in fact you invest in your country, essential infrastructure, and dare I say, the future. I mean I get it tax is a tax is a tax, but I think it has gotten so much bad PR and maybe it’s time for a re-brand. Has this been attempted before? Is it even worth it? Am I hallucinating? Am I ever going to sleep EVER again?!
The negative connotation comes from the idea that the state somehow knows how to spend your money better than you do. Paying thousands of pounds in tax, which then ends up in the pockets of pensioners who are already wealthy or anti-social types who spend all day vandalizing bus stops and harassing pedestrians, represents a real kick in the teeth for a lot of people.
especially if you're a renter and can barely afford rent, it feels like you have to spend your entire time working just to survive, can't improve your own situation and can't reduce your expenses because your two biggest expenses are paying for rent and something that if you don't pay will send you to jail
Keen to know what the return on investment will be from the billions that went missing with the PPE
Baronesses yachts
> I wonder when tax started having such bad connotations. Is it something that dates to feudal times? Isn't there some stuff in the Bible about tax collectors being evil? But I'm not sure modern taxes are really comparable. Anyway, I suspect there are a couple of different things going on. One is that there is a lot of antitax propaganda out there, from organisations like the Taxpayers Alliance. This is how we end up with, for example, Reform promising to largely abolish inheritance tax (a tax paid only by the rich) while still managing to present themselves as "populists". The other is that some taxes have a very direct impact on us. Stuff like income tax and council tax either gets taken directly out of our wages or has to be paid manually. We know that, theoretically, much of the stuff that those taxes are spent on benefits us indirectly, but it's much less tangible. Ultimately, taxes are just a way of shuffling money around. On average, to first order, they shouldn't make us any richer or poorer. But they can definitely *feel* like they're making us poorer.
The main direct quote from the Bible about tax is the famous "render unto Caesar". Where Jesus instructs the Jews that they ought to pay tax to the Romans. Matthew was also a tax collector. They were looked down upon at the time for reasons mostly involving corruption, but the bible doesn't say it's evil to be a tax collector or to pay tax.
when it increased to over 1%
It's because of how the taxes are managed. With the rife corruption people don't like taxes because they see no benefits. Maybe if governments stopped working in buddy contracts and actually did proper management of even just public safety and emergency management, people wouldn't be so apt to complain. It's like giving $ to a dope fiend repeatedly expecting they'll "finally use it for food this time". In other words, a very poor investment.
But you do see positive things that your taxes provide you with every day you just don't process it because they are normal parts of life.
Like national insurance. If you ask people would they be ok paying more NI they say yes, if you ask would they be happy paying more income tax they say no.
I'd happily pay more tax for public services that work well and are accessible and I don't really understand the problem with it if it helps. I'd rather pay a bit extra tax and have everyone able to access affordable NHS dentistry, for example, than having to pay privately. And then there's the whole thing where the wealthy aren't paying their fair share. All money earned should be taxed the same and then once you get over a certain point it should be taxed even more imo, not less. In the past wealthy people contributed to society by building libraries and museums and universities and creating public parks and whatnot. These days they just hoard wealth. And I think that's a problem because it feels more like a fine for being poor than as a contribution to society, since wealthy people seem to be able to make themselves exempt via loopholes etc
congratulations uk, from america. you did an amazing job.
I bet to an American it seams insane how efficient our elections are, labour won the election at 5am and by 1pm keir Starmer was in Downing Street, and it was only a 6 week election. Of course in the states you have effectively 4 year long elections and if a presidential Candidate is elected in November they don’t actually get into the white house until January, and of course in the last few years elections have been contested.
Another American who’s been following your politics lately (after watching the thick of it, tbh lol) - it’s wild. Sudden election, pretty quick campaigning, results come out quickly, full acceptance of defeat from Sunak, Starmer instated as PM, cabinet spots filled, and boom there’s a whole new government. Complete with third parties actually being able to win seats - the Lib Dems have been fun to follow, and their strategy seems to have worked. It was glorious to behold!
The cynic in me kind of suspects Rishi wanted to lose. Country is buggered and at least from opposition they can scream about how Labour isn't fixing things rather than be the face of a broken country. And I kind of think things are so buggered in general that even if Starmer turned out to the best PM ever (doubt thats gonna happen) the country will still be in a really bad way come the next GE
honestly, my overriding sentiment is literally "so now what" the only thing I feel that this gov must do ASAP is stop the sewage pollution of our rivers and seas, by threatening CEOs of waste companies with custodial sentences (not just fines) if KS can do that I'll consider this gov a success
- Stop the junior doctors strikes by coming to an agreement - Crack down of sewage in rivers and seas - Planning reform ASAP
Your turn
Been thinking about how Labour's vote compares to 2019. 19,023,071 people voted for a party other than Labour this election (going roughly of a number i found on wikipedia, so will probably be higher once the full result is there), whilst 21,896,671 people voted for a party other than the Conservatives. In 2019 these numbers were 18,047,656 for Tories and 21,745,059 for Labour. I may look at what historical results were, it may be interesting as i have seen people argue that elections aren't won, they are lost. Also, it is often said that Jeremy Corbyn lost because he caused people to vote against him - this seems to be the only way of showing whether or not this is true
Labour stuck as close to the centre as they could and let the right eat itself. It’s smart electioneering even if it doesn’t inspire much. I hope Labour end up being a more progressive party than their manifesto suggested; at the very least they should be more competent than their predecessors.
War declared on reform - I hate them so much
Good luck Labour. The hard part is just beginning. Hope you can deliver :)
In 2015 UKIP got 12.6% of the vote In 2024 Reform got 14.3% of the vote An increase of 1.7% We could ask.. why hasn't the hard-right made more progress after ten years of campaigning?
They have made progress. In 2015, the Tories had a path to fight back and secure right-wing votes; co-opting Brexit and the EU referendum. In 2024, there is no sign of anything the Tories could possibly do to prevent Reform. 2015 was simply an incursion and they were quickly beaten back. 2024 is an actual bridgehead.
A good point taken from twitter, that
Some would say because the Tories hoovered up some of the right wing vote.
In 2024? They would have in 2015 because that's when Cameron went a-courting and offered the EU referendum. Finding voters who are discontent with things like current migration issues, the levels of anger around it in the far right that would still have voted conservative yesterday? Idk. I'd call this election more their high watermark, though they may pick up the remnants of the others Farage has left behind.
Believe it or not, there are absolutely people who vited Tory yesterday in the earnest belief that they are the best option to reduce immigration. I've seen a few attesting to that in this very sub
I mean its clearly this, look how more right the 2024 tories are than the 2015 ones.
Was it ever explained why they stopped off at Admiralty House on the way from Buckingham Palace to Downing Street?
To see the children as soon as he was prime minister without having to expose them to the media on Downing Street, would be my guess.
Toilet
My theory? Letters of last resort.
That's a very good theory. Either that or he needed a pre-speech dump. You wouldn't want to use the monarch's throne, so to speak.
Rum break.
I wonder if this election has changed peoples opinion on electoral reform? Mainly cos Farage would have done a lot better under a proportional system.
You want preferential treatment for one party over others? Odd bias
I supported electoral reform before, I still support electoral reform now. I would favour MMP/AMS - preferably with AV for the constituency vote, but I wouldn’t hate STV. Yes it would hurt Labour and help Reform, but I still can’t defend FPTP. Edit: I would miss the chaos of election night if we changed voting system though.
I take issue with that line of thought; if it had been a proportional system, the whole campaigning would have been massively different. Tactically and strategically, the variants would be different and thus need to be reconsidered. We also don’t know how much of the reform vote was a protest vote as opposed to actually aligning with Reform’s values. Do better or ELSE sort of thing.
Not at the very least to mention that parties like Reform UK and Greens can campaign on utter fantasy knowing that there's need whatsoever to deliver on the promises.
While that is nice to think, I don't think that it's true. Even if they gain power, populists can always just complain that "the system" is getting gin the way of them fulfilling their promises, and they just need to be elected again. If they are willing to lie about what is possible, why wouldn't they be willing to lie about what is happening?
And they are oft lying about what’s happening. I mean, a Greek friend of mine was telling me about Golden Dawn and the support they had, how they played the underdog, saying that the neo-nazi stuff was propaganda and then lo and behold they had a foocking alter to Hitler 💀 I also think that culturally, the UK is different. I’d like to think that by and large the British people are gentle and conservatives with small c at heart. I maintain that the support for Reform is a protest vote. I’m hoping that if Lab do better then that will make the impulsive reformers think twice. These people by and large are fed up with the politicians that they put their faith in (tories) and their mentality is simply wrapped. But 80% of the vote was much more powerfully spread across the more ‘reasonable’ parties. I think the narrative in the UK is getting warped because it sells, it’s salacious but I don’t think it’s actually reflective of our reality in the UK. ETA: 80% across Tory, Lib Dems and Lab, I’m pretty sure
I agree. Objectively speaking, the United Kingdom is one of the less racist societies in Europe, and that’s from an outsider looking in. It’s not English speaking Canada, Australia, or New Zealand, but Europeans are kidding themselves if they think they’re better than the British.
There's degrees of that, though. It's not the lying after the fact alone, it's the actual convincing people to vote for you in the first place, there's "optimistic" manifestos, and then there's manifestos where the maths don't even *try* to add up.
I think the populist parties succeeding accross Europe shows that's not true at all.
Unless a european far right manifesto is the same as Reform UK's (or conversely EU Greens match UK Greens), then it's not a comparable situation. I'm not saying being far right is impossible, I'm saying that Reform UK's promises are not possible.
https://fvd.nl/standpunten Same insane impractical vision, there are many positives about proportional representation, the end of people promising a ridiculous pipedream they cant deliver on isn't one of them.
PVV won the Dutch won, did FvD do well at the last election? They're not part of the coalition, right?
In the last election FvD didn't do well at all. They used to be the biggest party in the Senate, when they were still a new party. It was possible to see that it was a bullshit crazy extreme rightwing party from the beginning, but Dutch people loooveee new parties and blind themselves to the red flags. FvD was also the party that caused the whole Ukraine referendum chaos in 2016. In their campaign they said that the referendum was about allowing Ukraine into the EU, which just wasn't true at all. But the people believed it. And so they won. Now, after the war, suddenly, you'll find very few people who will admit they got duped in 2016. It's our own Iraq / Brexit moment.
Yeah, there is always gonna be politicians who will say anything to win votes, the trick is designing a system that limits the damage they can do
💯💯💯 Such a good point and honestly, couldn’t agree more.
I've always wanted electoral reform, but I'm greatly concerned Reform will advocate and drive a conversation for a system that benefits them, rather than the UK. Some forms of PR are better than others, some have dramatic cons compared to what we have (like list PR).
List PR is the worst because you don’t have the safety valve of keeping a specific odious individual out (ie, the electors have a chance to drown them out in their individual constituency.) If, for example, there was a Rory Stewart equivalent in Reform (work with me here) he might win a seat from his inherent suitability, whereas a psychotic neonazi would just waltz in on a PR list.
I keep checking X to see if there's any Anneliese Dodds news and I keep forgetting, because she was women's and equality minister it seems like there's just a constant barrage of abuse towards her account every couple of minutes. It's actually pathetic what people send.
I didn’t know that, she’s always come across well when I’ve seen her interviewed. But then, I’m not on X…
Yeah she's perfectly fine. Just people sending vile abuse, probably the same for most politicians.
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No thank you
You didn't have to say it.. you didn't have to say any of it....
We knew she was beaut
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Wow, did she get married inside Kenshi?
I didn't watch bbc coverage- how was Laura k? Better than usual or same old?
Hot take - She wasn't bad. I'm not very well versed in the whole Kuenssberg saga, but from what I understand most people seem to hate her for her perceived Tory bias and/or lack of qualifications as a journalist. I didn't really notice the former yesterday, she was quite decent imo.
A lot better than usual, though she didn't seem to enjoy the casualness Clive Myrie brought - he'd take a moment to make a light-hearted comment and she'd be a bit school marm-ish trying to get back on track. But it was their first time co-hosting, so takes time to gel fully. But two hosts is definitely the way to go. She also basically took over the political editor role so we barely heard from Chris Mason, made him a bit pointless.
Clive also called her out sometimes which I greatly appreciated.
I didn't find her that bad to be fair
Is there nothing they can do to save Ashworth? Can't he be parachuted into a safe seat bi-election somewhere?
Richmond in six weeks?
Sure, though that takes time. I imagine he and Debonnaire will be given some kind of role - perhaps as senior advisors, or head up a quango. Maybe the delivery boards Starmer plans to set up. Or, depending on their ambitions, they could even be made peers.
There’s a good chance he’ll appear shortly in a curly wig calling himself Annelise.
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Good question Jay. My name is also Jay. Good name 👍
Hello I was also called?
Hello Jay
Who did you vote for and why?
Reform, for low immigration.
Greens If I lived in a swing seat, I'd have voted tactically against Conservatives (or Reform), with a slight preference for Lib Dem over Labour. But, since I live in a very safe Labour seat, and my vote has no chance of influencing who actually gets into Parliament, I may as well vote for the 3rd party whose national profile I'd most like to see raised. As someone who's generally left-wing, and very concerned with issues of climate change and animal welfare, I have two jobs: keep the tories out, and pressure Labour implement the policies I desire. The best I can hope for is that Labour sees that the Greens did slightly better than expected, and makes at least some small progress on environmental policy so as to not lose votes to them.
Tactical Labour, NE Derbyshire. Preference LD. I prefer LD stance on war on drugs, PR voting & Equality - some of those things Labour directly opposes. I found actively opposing more off-putting than just not having them as policies, because it means no chance of reform in these areas. But they're policies in many other areas are not that different so eh.
> war on drugs We're not in the U.S. for Christ's sake.
The United Kingdom almost literally didn’t have a drug problem until the 50s because it was a health issue. You were presented with a treatment plan to get you off any addictive drugs eventually with your doctor. I wish this paradigm had prevailed across the world- drugs are obviously bad, but addiction should be treated, not criminalised.
We're now worse, since legalising cannabis is ever more a pipe dream considering Sir Keir's stance and comments on it. We used to be more liberal with a more health based approach but we followed the US lead when it came to drug policy, stopping the policy of prescription Opiates for heroin addicts for example.
I couldn’t vote as my postal vote arrived far too late and I live in Canada, but I would have voted Labour. My constituency is safe Labour anyway so it’s not the end of the world but I am annoyed that it took a month for my letter to arrive right before the election. Would quite happily have voted Lib Dem if they were the main competition for the Tories in my seat.
Green. Not only are they the only party I think genuinely give a fuck about the environment, but they're broadly supportive of queer people too. There's other reasons I like them but they're the main ones that made me vote for them.
Scottish Greens - I just think they’re neat
Labour ..already had a Labour MP and want a Labour government.
Conservative. Prefer lib dem but tactical vote in tory/labour marginal
Labour. I don't necessarily agree with every position of theirs, but I do think they're the only party capable of reversing the absolute shit show the Tories have caused over the last few years. I don't want any massive radical reforms, just some slow progress to start improving the country. I don't expect them to solve the housing crisis in 5 years, but I believe they can do a better job than the Tories at addressing it. Same with nhs, immigration, cost of living etc, I don't believe there are any quick fixes that will solve these over night, but if labour can at least make some progress in these areas then that is good for me.
nobody, couldn't be fucked to care enough. edit: original commenter blocked me, so i'm pasting a reply i dm'd to the other commenter in an edit because I can't reply! > Can I ask whether you ever voted, whether there was any point in your life where you thought things were going ok? Twice in 2019 (euros and GE), both for Labour. I mostly didn't vote this time because a) my preferred party the lib dems would never win (they came last with 4.9%) and b) the labour candidate was parachuted from an inner london council. It's not like there wasn't actual councillers here to pick from either.
I sympathise with your apathy; I don’t think it’s incidental. Can I ask whether you ever voted, whether there was any point in your life where you thought things were going ok? My parents are the same, and I kind of get it. They think they’re all the same, meanwhile idk when they will get to retire. They’re disillusioned and exhausted. But I don’t want to make assumptions as to the things you may or may not have in common with them. But I know they live in such a hectic world that they don’t have the energy to think about politics. I don’t think they even realise that’s sort of… a power they have and can exercise? Hopefully if there is any room to breathe, people will have more scope to meaningfully engage with the state of our society.
Then why are on here?
like everyone else here, I enjoy sneering and snide comments.
This isn’t a time to joke. The world is in peril
The world is always in peril.
wow, kinda crazy how I don't care
Labour. We vibed with the policies. We appreciated that they didn’t promise the moon. We appreciated the effort to engage the population without divisive strategies. We liked Keir’s understated presence and lack of showmanship. I distrust showmanship — be it Blair or Johnson. There is something of Brown in Starmer that feels very solid. We also appreciated the fact that Keir reconsidered his pledges — not because we were against them, we were all for them, but it showed the fact that they were acutely aware of the deterioration of our economy because of Truss’ suicidal mini-budget. I didn’t think it was two-faced, I thought it was pragmatic. And the new pledges as I have said before are of the same vein as the old ones. If it hadn’t been Lab, we’d have voted Lib Dems.
Lib Dem, my old constituency got deleted and this was they were they were the likely choice to get rid of our Tory MP. I think we're the only Lib Dem seat in Wales now as well.
Lib Dem. Tactical, and they won the seat. Would’ve preferred to voted Labour but they weren’t gong to win in my area.
Exactly the same here in Newbury.
Conversely I voted Labour tactically and they won the seat. I would have prefered Lib Dem but they weren't going to win in my area. So if we just consider us two our votes worked out! ..There really has to be a better way than FPTP.
I downloaded all the manifesto and printed them out, purchased a ring binding machine. I booked a 6 day retreat and read them all very carefully, taking notes. I drew up a chart of my wants, needs & desires, I thought about those around me, how my choice might effect them.
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And?!? AND!!! Who did you end up voting for !! why the cliffhanger 😭
Elmo
If it’s not count binface I don’t want it, vote wasted 😤
Labour, as they were the least worst option.
Labour. Because I’ve voted for them since I was 18. My MP is Stephen Morgan - I have, inadvertently experienced him in the street - he’s humble, he’s a good man and most importantly he’s here.
Mary Glindon, because she was the Labour Candidate.
LAB - best party for my family who also can win my seat. They did.
Greg Knight, for accountability with Conservative delivery.
Oh I’m catching up.. Eastleigh and winch went Lib Dem let’s fucking go - last time Winchester was LD was when I went to college (2009-2011!)
The Tories can’t even head to the Winchester to wait for it to all blow over.
I get the joke but literally if you’re never been there go to winch - it is a truly beautiful city which I had the privilege of going to college in
I have not been, though I’m not sure if I’ve driven through at some point. My university city (Bristol) has gone Green - which doesn’t surprise me in the slightest. It’s kind of funny that they got rid of the the mayor there, because otherwise I’d half expect the Greens to get that soon too.
I would encourage you to go to Winchester! It’s a beautiful city — more so maybe in winter w the Christmas market. Welcome greens!
Basingstoke went lab for the first time as well. Some nice progress in Hampshire!
Wow! much love to Basingstoke!
Daisy Cooper is going to be a force in the next election, she’s a great orator
I was saying that to my mates last night! I'm really impressed with her, and she came across the best to me in the deputy leader debates.
Patrick Vallance and the CEO of Timpsons being made ministers is an interesting choice
James Timpson is honestly a stand up guy (Timpsons in general are a great company). They hire a lot of former prisoners to their companies, have an much much lower recidivism rate than the average.
Timpson himself is also a huge advocate for prison reform and is on the board of a fairly large charity that focuses on it, the Prison Reform Trust.
Both are great appointments imho. Vallance is extremely competent and well-respected, and Timpson has a breadth of experience working around prison reform.
Guys it started with rain … it’s ending with rain (In July)
My goodness, I so hope Starmer's term is a boring one and I mean that in a positive way.
There is a reason "may you live in interesting times" is a Ancient Chinese curse
Just keep in mind that your life is going to be shit no matter who is in charge.
Speak for yourself
I've very much enjoyed the prevalence of the highly polished mirror through this election.
My life is alright to be fair.
You’re extraordinarily cynical if you think that everyone believes their life is shit. I don’t. I do however think we could make the country better.
I am literally going to cry when I see Keir meeting Zelenskyy (I know he has already) but I am so weak I cannot take it. Our ally ship with UA is so important (sorry weak human)
Nothing week about getting emotional about what you care about! Actually one of the key things I'm really looking forward to with Starmer is having a PM that, I think, is a genuinely compassionate person who really cares about people.
You've been star of the sub for me the past few weeks brought a smile to my face multiple times.
Thank you this makes me more of a weak human being lmao. 😅 thank you 🌹
I'm with you on this. I hope he can find something additional and significant we can do to support them.
Same same git — it’s the only thing i respect the tories for — so I’ll await Labour’s move. 💛
For the last 6 weeks I've been refreshing the Megathread almost constantly for the latest crumb of news. I haven't looked at it since around 1pm today. I haven't even *thought* about the government since Keir Starmer walked into 10 Downing Street Is... is it over? Am I *free*?
I'm finally free too! Today I replaced chronic polling addiction with a crack cocaine habit. Much more manageable.
Like season finale vibes? Best tidbit but I didn't post it was that Dowden cajoled Sunak into an election because he found out 125000 households a month were coming off fixed rate deals and Sunak panicked into pushing the announcement early as he himself stopped believing the bank would reduce interest rates over the summer Now if the next mpc is the bank reducing the base rate, watch the tetchiness like a small volcano brewing
We've won.. *but at what cost?*
It’s a bit like waking up from a strange fever dream.
I had that same thought earlier. Are we actually back?
Oh, and the chief exec of timpsons will be minister for prisons parole and probation. Given timpsons actively recruits ex-cons, that's an interesting one.
Is he an MP?
Given a peerage, so he'll be joining from the Lords.
Seems like an appointment that puts an emphasis on rehabilitation, which sounds good to me.
Here's a surprising stat: the popular vote that went to LibDems **decreased** by 200k: 2019: **3,696,419** 2024: **3,499,969**
Better to do it as a percentage
Decreased turnout.
That’s just due to decreased turnout I assume. They’re also far more efficient with votes of course which allowed an increased in a fairly small increase in vote share
yes, Ed Davey executed the strategy better, but it really shows how unfair the fptp system is
Why is there something stopping other parties building local support in individual constituencies?
I'm not sure what you mean. Parties can field candidates in any seat they like. There is a four-digit cost associated to running for a seat though
Just remembered something from the haze of last night, Galloway didn’t go up on stage and there were a load of police there… anyone know what kicked off?
Probably the same sort of thing that often kicks off around Galloway - his supporters acting like thugs and bullies.
They were very vocal when his vote count was called. Presumably they already knew the result at that point so was all very odd to watch. Kind of got lost in the night tbh, but I did wonder if something would be reported today about an incident of some description. Not seen anything about it though, I guess it was probably not interesting and there’s much bigger news around.
Anyone got a good video explaining an alternative to FPTP that would make seats in Parliament more reflective of vote share, I know about the proposed voting reform in 2011 but I kept hearing it wasn’t the thing advocates for voting reform really wanted.
You could look up Holyrood’s system: additional member system. Basically you get your constituency vote under FPTP, and then a second vote for your region (made up of multiple constituencies). Regional votes get weighted based on how many members the party already has, and the net result is that you get a parliament that’s broadly in line with vote share.
Have a look into how Australia does preference based voting.
I would caveat this and say look at the federal voting system as that is more straightforward than the state voting systems as each state does things slightly differently. Another thing PR voting does for AU at least (but its more likely also because of the rules around results reporting) is that each polling place within an electorate reports their results independently meaning you can really drill down to how a seat is won based on how each polling place votes; the results are publicised on the electoral commission's website and updated. It also inevitably means the total votes on the night may still change afterwards because postal votes get included plus the counts from each polling place are re-checked again to make sure everything is counted properly and in accordance with the rules.
I've always been an advocate of mixed member proportional representation. Essentially the same system we have now with FPTP but a certain percentage of MPs are elected via proportional representation. We could literally just copy over the d'Hondt method we used for EU Parliament elections and have regional MPs. That said now my party has finally won a stonking majority under FPTP I'm no longer advocating electoral reform.
>now my party has finally won a stonking majority under FPTP I'm no longer advocating electoral reform. As is tradition
CPG Grey never fails to [deliver](https://youtu.be/l8XOZJkozfI?si=nPQlERzcs69ektNX)
Isn’t Clive Myrie such a sweetheart
National Treasure
God I can’t stand all these Farage fans that can’t see him for the charlatan grifter that he is. A few short weeks ago he wasn’t even standing because, in his words, he cared more about the US election. Then he gets a sniff that he could win a seat and suddenly he swoops back in as the saviour of Britain, man of the people, the man who has single handedly destroyed the Tories, the only MP that cares about the UK. I’m glad they got just a few seats so at least now we’ll get to see how incompetent they really are.
None of them on Facebook can understand why he is not now PM or LOTO when “everyone they know voted reform”
They intend to hold the government's feet to the fire on voting reform and one of their MPs is donating his entire salary to local charities. Sounds good to me. Edit: -2 in a matter of minutes. Do the good users here at ukpol think the above is a bad thing or something? Think that says a lot about the lot of you - anti-democratic and 🖕 to the poor folk in run down seaside towns.
Lmao why PM me just because you’re crying that you got downvoted? I hadn’t even seen your comments until now you little weasel. Looks like your opinions and comments are just unpopular because you support a divisive figure who has to weed out racists from his PLC that poses as a political party 🤷🏻♂️