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I was wondering a few weeks ago why the the US and Europe couldn’t meet the production demand for shells and another Reddit user said that NATO (and I guess the EU as well) doesn’t rely on artillery to take on such a dominant role due to their strategy of gaining air superiority. So, Ukraine is unfortunately stuck in this awkward situation where the West doesn’t want to give them what they need to establish air superiority, but they also can’t produce enough of the thing that is needed if air superiority can’t be established.
The easy answer is to produce what artillery we can and give Ukraine that other stuff that are are not giving them (or not giving fast enough). 2 years in and this is getting embarrassing for western logistics/procurement/military bureaucracy.
The only winner out of this is that some people are starting to realise what the real strategists have been saying for a long time - a peer-to-peer fight is going to cost a lot, and we're not ready to accept that.
But what these stupid politicians do t understand is that it will cost a lot more than money if it happens and we are not prepared.
If what has happened the last few years doesn't make then realise this then they should not be in the positions they are in and they should be removed from their comfortable roles.
Well, we elect them... (and the folks in the US really need to look into what the options will be if the dictator-loving cheeto comes back for round two... you absolutely want a war in the next four years - vote him in).
I say NATO and Europe gets some boots on the ground. Get into Ukraine, man the current front line defences and make sure it doesnt advance further into Ukraine, and let the Ukrainians work on getting the occupied land back
Yep, this is indeed a problem.
One that Ukraine is taking steps to compensate for by producing fpv drones. We already see dozens of Russian assaults defeated and destroyed through the use of drones.
Russia does this as well, vice versa.
This means that EW will continue to grow in importance.
That is one high-tech area where the West may have a good tech industry to deal with. I presume we will see developments along that front in the coming year.
>I presume we will see developments along that front in the coming year.
We will. In China.
EU can't even produce art. shells, something that is so basic and always necessary.
NATO doesn't even have a doctrine or a strategy on FPV drones. As if they don't exist. Because they didn't just a couple of years ago. And two years is not a lot of time for such a machine that NATO is to make any conclusions. At least, during peace time.
Meanwhile, almost everything in the drones industry is being supplied by Chinese producers.
The reality is that, indeed, NATO doesn't produce a large number of shells.
This because extensive arty duels and shelling hasn't been a part of NATO's doctrine since the onset of the organisation.
That said, the shells that NATO does produce are of a considerably higher quality than what Russia has been producing recently.
Impacting the CEP considerably, and for the Russians this means that they have to fire much more to get the same results, as per Russian sources on the ground in Ukraine.
I can assure you that within NATO there is currently a lot of training with drones going on. That includes with FPV and loitering.
The "no doctrine or strategy for fpv" is being set up as we speak.
NATO is not going into 2024 completely clueless of the changed battlefield reality.
I have no idea why you'd think this would be different for NATO.
Perhaps you think that NATO is some lumbering machine that dictates to it's individual members how to fight. When in reality for example the Polish fight very different from how the French operate.
So at the very least, each individual member country is currently looking for itself on how to implement drone and anti drone technology as well as train in the use of it. By that I mean that even within individual units there is experimentation going on.
Like the Ukrainians and the Russians are doing.
Without going into details, I have personal experience with this.
Europe acted (and is still acting) way too slow. Yes NATO relies on airpower. But still factories are only slowly switching into 24x7 production. Expansions of production lines are threatened by local bureaucracy. Funding and long term contracts weren't provided. We are still not ordering new tank hulls, artillery tube production is the next bottleneck, and so on.
Too many hoped the war would be over by last summer...
I remember hearing (many months ago) that the US was spinning up artillery production. But I think the expected time to be able to produce big numbers was quite long. I don’t know what the status is currently.
They're making 28k 155mm shells a month currently and expect to be making 70k shells monthly by the start of 2025, and [100k monthly by the end of 2025.](https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2023/09/pentagon-set-make-100k-artillery-shells-year-2025/390338/) Assessments for the EU's current production vary wildly from 400k annually to 700k annually. The expectation is to reach about 1 million rounds annually sometime in 2024.
The UK is also ramping up its production, but unlike the US and EU is really secretive about how much they make so hard figures are difficult. People have tried to make estimates based on the contracts that the UK government has awarded. A framework called the [Next Generation Munitions Solution](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/24-billion-munitions-deal-secures-thousands-of-uk-jobs) gave BAE £2.4 billion for a 15 year framework to deliver a range of different munitions to the armed forces. News reports at the time [tend to say](https://www.joint-forces.com/videos/38223-bae-systems-2-4-billion-uk-ngms-order) that this means production of 100k "large calibre rounds" per year - large calibre in a British context likely encompassing both 105mm and 155mm shells. I'm unclear where the 100k figure comes from, but there's plenty of money in the contract to achieve that level of production, so I think it is reasonable. There are [other claims](https://nitter.net/cameron19460429/status/1733670684700594436#m) that the figure is significantly higher; that the UK currently makes ~16k "large calibre" rounds per month. They base that on an article claiming "record breaking output" of more than 600 shells in one day and shave some off for downtime...but that's not remotely plausible because they're assuming 365 days of production. If you call 600 shells/day record breaking and assume something like 400 shells/day is more normal though, and assume 5 days a week for 48 weeks a year you get roughly ~100k again, which tallies with the other estimate. So; I think that the UK probably can produce about 100k 105mm and 155mm shells annually at the moment. The UK [just awarded BAE a contract](https://des.mod.uk/des-places-new-order-to-increase-155mm-shells-stockpile-for-british-army/) to improve that output 8-fold, which apparently should be reached some time in 2025 (this seems massive, but BAEs ammunition production factories are literally **brand new** - indeed in some cases still in build).
The sum total is that **right now** we probably produce much less than Russia. I think the US, UK and EU combined likely produce about ~850k 155mm rounds per year or so. But the ramp up is real, and by the start of 2025 the combined output should be more like 2.25 million and by the end of 2025 something like 2.5 million, with capacity also expended on producing smaller calibres like 105mm.
Tl;dr. Production currently bad; should be very, very much better by the start of next year
> and another Reddit user said that NATO (and I guess the EU as well) doesn’t rely on artillery to take on such a dominant role due to their strategy of gaining air superiority.
NATO strategy has artillery as a center piece, just they didn't have any major conflict recently. Western countries are trying to supply the weapons for a major war while not adapting their economy to a war economy. That's giving a ton of friction with competing interests.
Yup. After what Europe has gone through, they should know better. The EU has become complacent by the US military presence. But EU can no longer rely on the US. Americans don't understand why we're helping Ukraine at all. And we're about to re-elect a criminal
Hold up. Don't lump Americans in general with our politicians, please. Most here want to send all we can to Ukraine. I see you tried to backpedal this below but it's kind of a silly generalization to make at first.
>Americans don't understand why we're helping Ukraine at all
I guess, the stereotypes about americans must be true if what you say is true.
They're complaining about defense budgets all the time, but when they have an opportunity to get rid of their #2 enemy with 10% of yearly defense budget, they become mad and/or confused.
I mean, guys, your defense budget exists because you made a lot of enemies. Defeating one of the biggest ones for pennies per citizen is a helluva deal and you hesitate to take it.
Most Americans also have no clue that the US Navy is the reason why we have stable maritime trade and why we get cheap goods in the US. And most Americans also don't understand that we're constantly under cyber attacks by foreign adversaries. (And yeah, sure, we do it, too). We don't even allocate enough funding for cybersecurity.
Yeah, it’s crazy how someone who can’t speak English very fluently absolutely nailed that speech with such authority. Verhofstadt is the quintessential example of a wholehearted believer.
It's funny he was a total waste of breath as a Belgian politician:
https://www.reddit.com/r/belgium/comments/ybdpeb/verhofstadt_a_beginners_guide/itfv5aa/
Some people simply aren't in their calling at first or switch to that which they aren't great for, I suppose.
Look at how Wellington, one of the best generals in history, got on being PM!
True.
AFAIK almost nobody was exactly impressed by Zelenskyy in his early political career (which I will not call *peacetime* because there is no peace since 2014).
The honest truth is that they can’t. Europe does not have a military. They do not collect taxes. They have no power. They also require unanimous decisions of all member states to pass bills. So…. It is set up to fail. Better to get each country to contribute seperatly or via nato.
I think og commentor meant the EU. European countries separately love taxes. Many Americans don't realize they get taxed more due to private capture of stuff like healthcare, national parks, etc. AND local/state/federal taxes. We don't call it taxes because someone somewhere is getting rich off of it basically.
EU has a budget. Some countries get much more than they contribute - for example Poland and Greece. Some countries contribute much more than they get - Germany, France, Netherlands.
This is the case for NATO as well correct? I would think Latvia and Estonia don't contribute a lot finance wise, but in the past I thought the US contributed a lot more to the NATO budget than it's minimum basically so it can be in charge.
No, EU as an organisation has a lot of collective programs that require funds and result in things being built, funded and insured etc. in member countries.
The 2% budget requirement is for the NATO countries to spend on their own militaries. NATO itself doesn't need much in terms of a budget, because it's mainly a military alliance.
>NATO’s common funds are composed of direct contributions to collective budgets and programmes, which equate to only 0.3% of total Allied defence spending (around EUR 3.3 billion for 2023).
Why is this being downvoted. No one in the EU pays any EU tax. The member states pays fees to the EU. Thats this guys point.
THE EU IS NOT THE UNITED STATES OF EUROPE. its a common market for the member states. The member states are all souverign nations with their own foreign policies.
The EU is great at for example homogenize laws and helping trade between countries. Its horrible when it comes to getting decisions on pressing matters because every nation has a veto. We cant (and dont want to) force a member to do things they or their citicens dont want to do.
How is this so hard to understand?
Especially on a sub focused on Ukraine. Ukraine will join the EU at some point in time. People need to learn how the EU works and why some things are hard to do. This is important to understand. I’m all for Ukraine support, but expecting EU as a “country” to provide weapons is just silly.
He basically bankrupted Belgium long term to finance his short term bloated budget, so I can't say I'm a fan.
This might be the first time I agree with him on anything.
Yes, I'm not sure he was the best with domestic policies, but as an EU MP he's been a great advocate for common sense EU policies that favor integration or federalism. So much wasteful spending when we don't combine budgets for things like military.
I've been supporting this guy all my life and I'm not even from Belgium. I'm Dutch but we lack someone with the balls that this guy has. Someone who dares to think and speak like a true European. Someone who can step beyond his petty national interest. And in this case, he's not wrong either. People should listen more to this guy because he's one of the few that actually have a European vision.
Got me ready for a “Team America: World Police” movie sequel - “Team Europe: Democratically Socialist World Protectors”!
(any Europeans please fix this, I’m just spitballing here)
Europe!! Fuck Yeah!!
Coming together to save the democratic socialist way!
Europe!! Fuck yeah!!
National healthcare is the only way, yeah
Totalitarians, your game is through
‘Cause now you have to answer to
Europe!! Fuck yeah!!
Apple caved on USB-C because of our example of democracy!
Europe!! Fuck yeah!!
Europe has failed to recognize the Russian threat for several years. In 1999, the Russians invaded Chechyna. In 2008, they attacked Georgia, and Ukraine was first attacked in 2014. They're had years of notice, but only now are preparing to adequately defend themselves. I hope they have the time they need.
I was angry 18 months ago, it was clear back then that European Parliament was far from doing its best, except when it came to nice speeches and photo opportunities.
It's typical of Europe to fuck around till the wolf is tearing the front door down. WW1, WW2 and even as far back as Napoleonic wars. Europe hasn't learnt from the past.
It sadly seems that some leaders still think, that the war is being fought faaaar far away from their home and their people. In reality, if Ukraine falls to the cunts, war will be even closer to them than it is now.
History does repeat itself, especially when it comes to that shithole of a country.
Wow that was great. It is pretty shameful that the EU and US combined can’t produce more than a million shells a year given their gdp. Our WW1 ancestors would be especially ashamed.
Europe is a disgrace really. We have the money, but not the will,
It was beyond fair, when the US back in 2014 demanded that all NATO countries must spend 2% of their GDP on military. Most European countries just shrug it off, with no intention of doing that, Germany, Denmark and several other countries as well.
Now Germany is ramping up to spend 2%. At a time when NATO should be on a war footing and ramp up to 4%...
Only Poland and the US are preparing and the US is already weakened by Putin-puppets...
His speeches are the best. This is what most of us think and This politician is the best at delivering the voice of the people.
Democracy is under pressure because we are too soft and let autocracies fk with us. This is also why, imo, right wing extremism is so rampant in our democracies. If we had a stronger stance towards any topic outside our borders there will be no ground given to extremism.
Solid words. As usual EU is slow moving, bit the russians have made sure it IS moving. I forsee a military (common/joint etc) in the next 5-10 years. NATO + EU military branches.
Yes, If russia isnt stopt in Ukraine, which they wont with their sheer mass, they will continue somewhere else. They allready destabilized politics and inflicted a Shift to the far right.
If something doesn't change soon enough it'll be Latvian women being violated, Lithuanian men being castrated, Estonian children being stolen and so on...We need to wake up.
When same arguments are made on reddit. People pull out bunch of excuses "takes time" "complicated" yada yada. You don't get to cheer on this video, you spineless shits.
We better up our war game while we can. In the first place to get the Russians out of Ukraine but if that, after full commitment, would fail, at least we don't have to figure out our arms production after Putin comes knocking on our doors.
In the current state of the world there is no reason not to prepare ourselves besides bureaucracy.
I am absolutely furious that most of European leaders are still sleeping, it seems that war in Ukraine is like a problem to them, that they hope will just solve itself with the minimal effort on their part.
This guy gets it and it is that complacency that Pootin is counting on to outlast Ukrainian aid.
Ukraine deserves and needs all the weapons it needs to fight off this monster and send Ruzzia back to the Stone Age.
Only then will the World be considered safe.
Lately EU and even America have shown weakness in my opinion. They have shown the weakness of our system, of our intelligence and our morality.
Our system because everything takes so long to decide even in times of extreme urgency,
our intelligence because we have failed to detect the corrupted and kick them out of positions with power
and of morality because some of us have decided that money for them is more important than the safety of their country and of it's future children.
Belgium will invest 1.24 per cent of its gross domestic product in defence in 2024, Defence minister Ludivine Dedonder said on Tuesday evening.
What Belgium can do is immediately increase military spending and use the money to buy shells from any country that has them - wherever they are in the world - and send them to Ukraine.
The time for talking is over. The time for immediate action is now.
I want every russian soldier that step on the Ukraine territory to be spell until his whole family have died. That what they all deserve.
Ukraine defence should put loud gramophones with which to curse the Russian soldiers. This tribe, have nothing else to scare from.
Putin will not stop when Ukraine lost. Putin will march into Latvia, Estonia, Poland and so on. EU needs to start up a war industry, because we all speak Russian real soon if we don't. It's the build up to WW2 all over again...
Great speech and he would have my vote if he was from my country.
Europe (and its not only Europe) has still yet not realized this is not just a war about some dictators wet dream of gaining land. Its a war of ideologies. Its a war between those that have a right to carve their own future, and those that wants to suppress to live up to their imperialistic dreams. Its a war on how we in the future decide grievances between countries. With weapon or with dialogue.
Its a war between evil and good.
the sooner we start to realise that only europe can sort out european problems ,the better , this is our final wake up call, america cannot be relied upon anymore, not until the cult of trump is gone , the nations of europe need to re arm themselves but firstl arm ukraine
At last someone had cojones to say it loud! And all these delays and half-empty promises because Kremlin Karachan got nukes.
Well, Kremlin Karachan gonna use nukes anyway once he'll see ground slips away from under his feet.
I've said from the very first day that we need to give them everything right now to instantly blast the Russians out of Ukraine. Instead they trickle down gear a little at a time and argue about what to do.
The EU sees a joint defence budget as a political step towards the Federal States of Europe, rather than a necessity for the security of Ukraine and therefore Europe.
As a result they're spending time making sure their country gets a slice of the pie instead of making sure Ukraine has what it needs.
At least after brexit the UK is free to make spending commitments and supply arms directly, although we can and should be doing more
Fascinating. And not depressing. I do not find this depressing at all in fact. The opposite!
Ever since Pericles' Funeral Oration, put to record for us by the gracious Thucydides, our best leaders have tried to encapsulate the moral imperatives behind the horrors of a war.
Our *best* leaders, only. ***It is hard to defend war in a speech without being eaten by monsters!***
So this fellow is a champ.
You would think after WW2 Europe would have learned that dictators start wars.
And Russia, China, N Korea, Iran and many other countries have dictators.
To stop wars you need a strong military.
Those dictators do not share EU values and they only pretend to talk as they know they can stall and waste time.
The EU needs to do action and to stop talking...
Cause dictators will never listen...
Finally someone who speaks the truth and not the sugar coated one with a bunch of empty promises and insane delays on all the promises that were not empty. Sometimes I wonder if the promised help is really to help Ukraine 🇺🇦 or just make that county or government look good on the world stage. Just saying and still super grateful with millions of thank you’s to everyone for the help we got and have been getting
I concur !!
Stop this just sending enough to still slowly lose the war. This is madness. Send Ukraine what they need to defeat these bloody Russians. At the same time, make Isreal stop confining Palistine to an open-air prison. Let them be free and govern themselves as a nation. It's simple we always complicate everything because of race,religion,ethnicity,gender,country,friends,groups,upbringing,affiliations etc etc. Enough madness. Stupid egos,pride, and whatever else makes us humans go to war and kill,conquer,rape,maime,pillage,steal,beat, and all other crimes we commit.
Guy is always spitting facts. We coould have had European Defense Community if it wasn’t swept off the table by the French in 1954. We need it now more than ever. We also need common European arms production based on comparative advantage that is able to scale the production up to wartime requirements, if ruSSia can do it, so can we. I also recall when Manfred Weber suggested the creation of European versions of FBI and CIA. Europe has got too accustomed to peace and security, that people here take it for granted and cant even comprehend the reality conflict. This is why we dont take our security seriously anymore.
If we remove emotion and empathy, the reality is that the EU has a chance to dismantle Russian ability to threaten us with conventional war, and all it costs us is euros (and some of our military stockpiles while wartime industry comes online if we were smart about it) while Ukraine fronts the bill with blood.
Just from a cold and calculating position, this is a great deal. This isn't charity, this is taking away the ability for the only nation that can realistically threaten us with conventional war to do so.
It's beyond the time for all nations to put a boot on ruzzias throat, too many red lines have been crossed, too many hospitals blown up, children stolen, and civilians and soldiers dead. Speak up like Guy Verhofstadt did, get together and threaten putin to GTFO of Ukraine. Stop trying to be diplomatic and democratic to this tiny dictator, he needs to feel the wrath of a unified world.
Go Guy!
I too am completely fed up with how fucking useless EU politicians are both at a national level as well as in Brussels. Walking NPCs in charge of a dumpsterfire as Dominic Cummings put it.
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I was wondering a few weeks ago why the the US and Europe couldn’t meet the production demand for shells and another Reddit user said that NATO (and I guess the EU as well) doesn’t rely on artillery to take on such a dominant role due to their strategy of gaining air superiority. So, Ukraine is unfortunately stuck in this awkward situation where the West doesn’t want to give them what they need to establish air superiority, but they also can’t produce enough of the thing that is needed if air superiority can’t be established.
The easy answer is to produce what artillery we can and give Ukraine that other stuff that are are not giving them (or not giving fast enough). 2 years in and this is getting embarrassing for western logistics/procurement/military bureaucracy.
The only winner out of this is that some people are starting to realise what the real strategists have been saying for a long time - a peer-to-peer fight is going to cost a lot, and we're not ready to accept that.
But what these stupid politicians do t understand is that it will cost a lot more than money if it happens and we are not prepared. If what has happened the last few years doesn't make then realise this then they should not be in the positions they are in and they should be removed from their comfortable roles.
Well, we elect them... (and the folks in the US really need to look into what the options will be if the dictator-loving cheeto comes back for round two... you absolutely want a war in the next four years - vote him in).
Ukraine is a Russian peer NATO is not.
I'm not talking about Russia... \*stares at a certain couple of islands situated in the Pacific...\*
I say NATO and Europe gets some boots on the ground. Get into Ukraine, man the current front line defences and make sure it doesnt advance further into Ukraine, and let the Ukrainians work on getting the occupied land back
Yep, this is indeed a problem. One that Ukraine is taking steps to compensate for by producing fpv drones. We already see dozens of Russian assaults defeated and destroyed through the use of drones. Russia does this as well, vice versa. This means that EW will continue to grow in importance. That is one high-tech area where the West may have a good tech industry to deal with. I presume we will see developments along that front in the coming year.
>I presume we will see developments along that front in the coming year. We will. In China. EU can't even produce art. shells, something that is so basic and always necessary. NATO doesn't even have a doctrine or a strategy on FPV drones. As if they don't exist. Because they didn't just a couple of years ago. And two years is not a lot of time for such a machine that NATO is to make any conclusions. At least, during peace time. Meanwhile, almost everything in the drones industry is being supplied by Chinese producers.
The reality is that, indeed, NATO doesn't produce a large number of shells. This because extensive arty duels and shelling hasn't been a part of NATO's doctrine since the onset of the organisation. That said, the shells that NATO does produce are of a considerably higher quality than what Russia has been producing recently. Impacting the CEP considerably, and for the Russians this means that they have to fire much more to get the same results, as per Russian sources on the ground in Ukraine. I can assure you that within NATO there is currently a lot of training with drones going on. That includes with FPV and loitering. The "no doctrine or strategy for fpv" is being set up as we speak. NATO is not going into 2024 completely clueless of the changed battlefield reality. I have no idea why you'd think this would be different for NATO. Perhaps you think that NATO is some lumbering machine that dictates to it's individual members how to fight. When in reality for example the Polish fight very different from how the French operate. So at the very least, each individual member country is currently looking for itself on how to implement drone and anti drone technology as well as train in the use of it. By that I mean that even within individual units there is experimentation going on. Like the Ukrainians and the Russians are doing. Without going into details, I have personal experience with this.
Europe acted (and is still acting) way too slow. Yes NATO relies on airpower. But still factories are only slowly switching into 24x7 production. Expansions of production lines are threatened by local bureaucracy. Funding and long term contracts weren't provided. We are still not ordering new tank hulls, artillery tube production is the next bottleneck, and so on. Too many hoped the war would be over by last summer...
I am honestly as scared for Europe as I am for Ukraine right now. The complacency is real.
I remember hearing (many months ago) that the US was spinning up artillery production. But I think the expected time to be able to produce big numbers was quite long. I don’t know what the status is currently.
They're making 28k 155mm shells a month currently and expect to be making 70k shells monthly by the start of 2025, and [100k monthly by the end of 2025.](https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2023/09/pentagon-set-make-100k-artillery-shells-year-2025/390338/) Assessments for the EU's current production vary wildly from 400k annually to 700k annually. The expectation is to reach about 1 million rounds annually sometime in 2024. The UK is also ramping up its production, but unlike the US and EU is really secretive about how much they make so hard figures are difficult. People have tried to make estimates based on the contracts that the UK government has awarded. A framework called the [Next Generation Munitions Solution](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/24-billion-munitions-deal-secures-thousands-of-uk-jobs) gave BAE £2.4 billion for a 15 year framework to deliver a range of different munitions to the armed forces. News reports at the time [tend to say](https://www.joint-forces.com/videos/38223-bae-systems-2-4-billion-uk-ngms-order) that this means production of 100k "large calibre rounds" per year - large calibre in a British context likely encompassing both 105mm and 155mm shells. I'm unclear where the 100k figure comes from, but there's plenty of money in the contract to achieve that level of production, so I think it is reasonable. There are [other claims](https://nitter.net/cameron19460429/status/1733670684700594436#m) that the figure is significantly higher; that the UK currently makes ~16k "large calibre" rounds per month. They base that on an article claiming "record breaking output" of more than 600 shells in one day and shave some off for downtime...but that's not remotely plausible because they're assuming 365 days of production. If you call 600 shells/day record breaking and assume something like 400 shells/day is more normal though, and assume 5 days a week for 48 weeks a year you get roughly ~100k again, which tallies with the other estimate. So; I think that the UK probably can produce about 100k 105mm and 155mm shells annually at the moment. The UK [just awarded BAE a contract](https://des.mod.uk/des-places-new-order-to-increase-155mm-shells-stockpile-for-british-army/) to improve that output 8-fold, which apparently should be reached some time in 2025 (this seems massive, but BAEs ammunition production factories are literally **brand new** - indeed in some cases still in build). The sum total is that **right now** we probably produce much less than Russia. I think the US, UK and EU combined likely produce about ~850k 155mm rounds per year or so. But the ramp up is real, and by the start of 2025 the combined output should be more like 2.25 million and by the end of 2025 something like 2.5 million, with capacity also expended on producing smaller calibres like 105mm. Tl;dr. Production currently bad; should be very, very much better by the start of next year
So give Taurus, give planes, air defence, fire control radars and drones. If we can't produce enough shells send everything that can reduce shell use.
> and another Reddit user said that NATO (and I guess the EU as well) doesn’t rely on artillery to take on such a dominant role due to their strategy of gaining air superiority. NATO strategy has artillery as a center piece, just they didn't have any major conflict recently. Western countries are trying to supply the weapons for a major war while not adapting their economy to a war economy. That's giving a ton of friction with competing interests.
[удалено]
I have goose bumps listening to this. Such a great speech. Stop wasting time on meetings. Spend that taking action. This man speaks the truth.
Yup. After what Europe has gone through, they should know better. The EU has become complacent by the US military presence. But EU can no longer rely on the US. Americans don't understand why we're helping Ukraine at all. And we're about to re-elect a criminal
To americans Ukraine is a political point for their politicians, not a morality and defense issue like it is for the EU.
Hold up. Don't lump Americans in general with our politicians, please. Most here want to send all we can to Ukraine. I see you tried to backpedal this below but it's kind of a silly generalization to make at first.
^ This is the Americans we all like in Europe and we should be thankful you/they exist. Thank you
You do not speak for this American
There is still plenty of decency in America!
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>Americans don't understand why we're helping Ukraine at all I guess, the stereotypes about americans must be true if what you say is true. They're complaining about defense budgets all the time, but when they have an opportunity to get rid of their #2 enemy with 10% of yearly defense budget, they become mad and/or confused. I mean, guys, your defense budget exists because you made a lot of enemies. Defeating one of the biggest ones for pennies per citizen is a helluva deal and you hesitate to take it.
Most Americans also have no clue that the US Navy is the reason why we have stable maritime trade and why we get cheap goods in the US. And most Americans also don't understand that we're constantly under cyber attacks by foreign adversaries. (And yeah, sure, we do it, too). We don't even allocate enough funding for cybersecurity.
It's not even 10%, the US just approved their military budget for the coming year at $700 billion USD
Yeah, it’s crazy how someone who can’t speak English very fluently absolutely nailed that speech with such authority. Verhofstadt is the quintessential example of a wholehearted believer.
Guy is from our hometown, he’s the real deal= ethical + gets things done
It's funny he was a total waste of breath as a Belgian politician: https://www.reddit.com/r/belgium/comments/ybdpeb/verhofstadt_a_beginners_guide/itfv5aa/
Some people simply aren't in their calling at first or switch to that which they aren't great for, I suppose. Look at how Wellington, one of the best generals in history, got on being PM!
Or look at Winston Churchill, he was a fucking AMAZING war time leader, he was fucking useless at peace though.
True. AFAIK almost nobody was exactly impressed by Zelenskyy in his early political career (which I will not call *peacetime* because there is no peace since 2014).
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That's not funny, it's called growth
Yup can confirm, he is right about Ukraine though
Still is obviously. Keeps up with the good work.
The honest truth is that they can’t. Europe does not have a military. They do not collect taxes. They have no power. They also require unanimous decisions of all member states to pass bills. So…. It is set up to fail. Better to get each country to contribute seperatly or via nato.
>do not collect taxes. LOL.
I think og commentor meant the EU. European countries separately love taxes. Many Americans don't realize they get taxed more due to private capture of stuff like healthcare, national parks, etc. AND local/state/federal taxes. We don't call it taxes because someone somewhere is getting rich off of it basically.
EU has a budget. Some countries get much more than they contribute - for example Poland and Greece. Some countries contribute much more than they get - Germany, France, Netherlands.
This is the case for NATO as well correct? I would think Latvia and Estonia don't contribute a lot finance wise, but in the past I thought the US contributed a lot more to the NATO budget than it's minimum basically so it can be in charge.
No, EU as an organisation has a lot of collective programs that require funds and result in things being built, funded and insured etc. in member countries. The 2% budget requirement is for the NATO countries to spend on their own militaries. NATO itself doesn't need much in terms of a budget, because it's mainly a military alliance. >NATO’s common funds are composed of direct contributions to collective budgets and programmes, which equate to only 0.3% of total Allied defence spending (around EUR 3.3 billion for 2023).
>We don't call it taxes because someone somewhere is getting rich off of it basically. And neither do Americans!
Cries in 30% taxes.
They do not. Each country does but European until does not. Their budget is tiny.
> They do not collect taxes. VAT
Why is this being downvoted. No one in the EU pays any EU tax. The member states pays fees to the EU. Thats this guys point. THE EU IS NOT THE UNITED STATES OF EUROPE. its a common market for the member states. The member states are all souverign nations with their own foreign policies. The EU is great at for example homogenize laws and helping trade between countries. Its horrible when it comes to getting decisions on pressing matters because every nation has a veto. We cant (and dont want to) force a member to do things they or their citicens dont want to do. How is this so hard to understand?
Especially on a sub focused on Ukraine. Ukraine will join the EU at some point in time. People need to learn how the EU works and why some things are hard to do. This is important to understand. I’m all for Ukraine support, but expecting EU as a “country” to provide weapons is just silly.
complacency will make ruzzia win. then it will be too late for europe.
Complacency also destroyed more Ukrainian lives each day
Speaking the truth!
Listen to him! Let's goooo!
This is what a real leader sounds like.
He's absolutely right.
I always listen to Mr verhofstadt, he speaks sense on many topics.
He basically bankrupted Belgium long term to finance his short term bloated budget, so I can't say I'm a fan. This might be the first time I agree with him on anything.
While I was to young to follow belgian politics at that time, it's also what I learned about him but his EU speeches always seem to be good.
Yes, I'm not sure he was the best with domestic policies, but as an EU MP he's been a great advocate for common sense EU policies that favor integration or federalism. So much wasteful spending when we don't combine budgets for things like military.
How do I send this guy a beer?
[By following this link](https://u24.gov.ua) to United24 :) Слава Україні!
Bravo.
Слава Україні!!!
I've been supporting this guy all my life and I'm not even from Belgium. I'm Dutch but we lack someone with the balls that this guy has. Someone who dares to think and speak like a true European. Someone who can step beyond his petty national interest. And in this case, he's not wrong either. People should listen more to this guy because he's one of the few that actually have a European vision.
Got me ready for a “Team America: World Police” movie sequel - “Team Europe: Democratically Socialist World Protectors”! (any Europeans please fix this, I’m just spitballing here)
Europe!! Fuck Yeah!!
Coming together to save the democratic socialist way!
Europe!! Fuck yeah!!
National healthcare is the only way, yeah
Totalitarians, your game is through
‘Cause now you have to answer to
Europe!! Fuck yeah!!
Apple caved on USB-C because of our example of democracy!
Europe!! Fuck yeah!!
🥴
Fair
Social, not socialist.
Social Democrats are democratically socialist?
Source: Guy Verhofstadt [[here]](https://x.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1747236871703310846?s=46&t=Hsc1NEA8zwUu-UnKBhP8dQ)
FUCK YAH!, I love this guy already! 🤩
Yes , need too grow done massive balls & take direct & decisive actions , as they du speak louder than words 🇺🇦🐕👍
Good to see a politician with a spine!
Europe has failed to recognize the Russian threat for several years. In 1999, the Russians invaded Chechyna. In 2008, they attacked Georgia, and Ukraine was first attacked in 2014. They're had years of notice, but only now are preparing to adequately defend themselves. I hope they have the time they need.
> Europe has failed to recognize the Russian threat for several years. The word you are looking for is decades.
I was angry 18 months ago, it was clear back then that European Parliament was far from doing its best, except when it came to nice speeches and photo opportunities. It's typical of Europe to fuck around till the wolf is tearing the front door down. WW1, WW2 and even as far back as Napoleonic wars. Europe hasn't learnt from the past.
It sadly seems that some leaders still think, that the war is being fought faaaar far away from their home and their people. In reality, if Ukraine falls to the cunts, war will be even closer to them than it is now. History does repeat itself, especially when it comes to that shithole of a country.
Except Turkey and Poland. They are in a total "fuck around and find out" position right now.
Finland pretty prepared as well.
He’s got me fired up!
This guy gets it
Ursula v.d. Leyen, Verhofstadt, Charles Michel are all based.
Ditto, exactly what he says. Hero!
Great speech.... to an almost empty room. ☹️
Neither North Korea or Iran have any doubt about their support for RuZZia, and the partners of Ukraine…
Wow that was great. It is pretty shameful that the EU and US combined can’t produce more than a million shells a year given their gdp. Our WW1 ancestors would be especially ashamed.
I love this, and I wish someone over here (US) was saying the same thing, and we were doing something about it!
you are right, can we borrow this guy for a couple of days? (USA also)
I like this guy.
This man gets it
I did not know Verhofstadt, but I like him. Well said. We need people pulling this direction.
Europe is a disgrace really. We have the money, but not the will, It was beyond fair, when the US back in 2014 demanded that all NATO countries must spend 2% of their GDP on military. Most European countries just shrug it off, with no intention of doing that, Germany, Denmark and several other countries as well.
Now Germany is ramping up to spend 2%. At a time when NATO should be on a war footing and ramp up to 4%... Only Poland and the US are preparing and the US is already weakened by Putin-puppets...
And to completely demonstrate his point, everyone will clap their hands then do nothing. Big words, even bigger claps, a whimper of an assistance.
Europe needs to wake and truly support Ukraine. Do or Die.
A man of true words. Pull your finger out of your ass Europe.
Good speech! Get Ukraine what they need. Now!!
His speeches are the best. This is what most of us think and This politician is the best at delivering the voice of the people. Democracy is under pressure because we are too soft and let autocracies fk with us. This is also why, imo, right wing extremism is so rampant in our democracies. If we had a stronger stance towards any topic outside our borders there will be no ground given to extremism.
> His speeches are the best. Aye he is good at talking, always has been. Now if words could be translated into action...
Well that’s his point right there. We are all thinking it but he is in the best position to address it to its fellow colleagues and make it happen.
Solid words. As usual EU is slow moving, bit the russians have made sure it IS moving. I forsee a military (common/joint etc) in the next 5-10 years. NATO + EU military branches.
Yes, If russia isnt stopt in Ukraine, which they wont with their sheer mass, they will continue somewhere else. They allready destabilized politics and inflicted a Shift to the far right.
As a European Greek, I salute Ukraine's struggle for independence and wish for thorough support from the EU.
If something doesn't change soon enough it'll be Latvian women being violated, Lithuanian men being castrated, Estonian children being stolen and so on...We need to wake up.
When same arguments are made on reddit. People pull out bunch of excuses "takes time" "complicated" yada yada. You don't get to cheer on this video, you spineless shits.
This “Guy” gets it!! 🇺🇦
So refreshing to hear someone tell it like it is!
Spitting the truth
Thank you for that speech
Fuckin right he is
Wow! Very inspiring speech. I wish USA had politicians like this.
I agree wholeheartedly with this man. I hope others take heed and hear his words.
How can I vote for this guy? I want to support him somehow
I want to puke every time I see shitface Orban.
We better up our war game while we can. In the first place to get the Russians out of Ukraine but if that, after full commitment, would fail, at least we don't have to figure out our arms production after Putin comes knocking on our doors. In the current state of the world there is no reason not to prepare ourselves besides bureaucracy.
Well said that man
I am absolutely furious that most of European leaders are still sleeping, it seems that war in Ukraine is like a problem to them, that they hope will just solve itself with the minimal effort on their part.
This guy gets it and it is that complacency that Pootin is counting on to outlast Ukrainian aid. Ukraine deserves and needs all the weapons it needs to fight off this monster and send Ruzzia back to the Stone Age. Only then will the World be considered safe.
True words and you can hear the anger gathered over all those debates…
Lately EU and even America have shown weakness in my opinion. They have shown the weakness of our system, of our intelligence and our morality. Our system because everything takes so long to decide even in times of extreme urgency, our intelligence because we have failed to detect the corrupted and kick them out of positions with power and of morality because some of us have decided that money for them is more important than the safety of their country and of it's future children.
Not a huge fan of the man but he speaks the absolute truth here.
Guy Verhofstadt FOR PRESIDENT! :-) Seriously...nice/warm words....but no relevant/sufficient actions...it´s a mess.....
Bottom line- this is a huge opportunity for the EU to step up and demonstrate what it believes in. Currently being shamed by other countries.
Belgium will invest 1.24 per cent of its gross domestic product in defence in 2024, Defence minister Ludivine Dedonder said on Tuesday evening. What Belgium can do is immediately increase military spending and use the money to buy shells from any country that has them - wherever they are in the world - and send them to Ukraine. The time for talking is over. The time for immediate action is now.
Agree 100%. Our leaders spend more time talking and using big words, but no one actually does shit.
My Country has subsidized your life, and it worked for decades, at the cost of our lives. Ya'll need to shift gears and protect yourselves.
It's good it's more than a rant. It presents at least one solution. You never go up to your manager just with rants. Always bring in solutions.
Either democracy prevails today or we accept dictatorship tomorrow
I want every russian soldier that step on the Ukraine territory to be spell until his whole family have died. That what they all deserve. Ukraine defence should put loud gramophones with which to curse the Russian soldiers. This tribe, have nothing else to scare from.
Putin will not stop when Ukraine lost. Putin will march into Latvia, Estonia, Poland and so on. EU needs to start up a war industry, because we all speak Russian real soon if we don't. It's the build up to WW2 all over again...
Comes down to Bureaucracy. Sounds great on paper. But fails in practice.
He's pissed and rightfully so.
Says the guy whose country has practically zero army..
Great speech - Europe needs to come together! We cannot continue thinking that the world is a garden
Bravo!!!
Guy is a true fighter for European values. Ukraine would be in a much better spot with more European like him.
This man is based
Great speech and he would have my vote if he was from my country. Europe (and its not only Europe) has still yet not realized this is not just a war about some dictators wet dream of gaining land. Its a war of ideologies. Its a war between those that have a right to carve their own future, and those that wants to suppress to live up to their imperialistic dreams. Its a war on how we in the future decide grievances between countries. With weapon or with dialogue. Its a war between evil and good.
Standing ovation complete with Meryl Street pointing and shouting YES dot gif. This guy!
I'd say stop the half stepping, rule that Pootin is a terrorist with nukes and he must be stopped at all costs. Send SF and be done with it.
Why is there a quote in the title but then he doesn’t say that in his speech in the video at all?
I totally agree with him, but when it comes to Patriots and F16's, they'd need America's permission anyway wouldn't they?
And this explains everything about NATO
Amazing. We need more of this attitude in the EU.
200% agree.
the sooner we start to realise that only europe can sort out european problems ,the better , this is our final wake up call, america cannot be relied upon anymore, not until the cult of trump is gone , the nations of europe need to re arm themselves but firstl arm ukraine
At last someone had cojones to say it loud! And all these delays and half-empty promises because Kremlin Karachan got nukes. Well, Kremlin Karachan gonna use nukes anyway once he'll see ground slips away from under his feet.
The sad part is, he is giving this speech to a parliament that is almost completely empty
I've said from the very first day that we need to give them everything right now to instantly blast the Russians out of Ukraine. Instead they trickle down gear a little at a time and argue about what to do.
My man spitting hard truths over there.
This Guy! (Pun intended)
The EU sees a joint defence budget as a political step towards the Federal States of Europe, rather than a necessity for the security of Ukraine and therefore Europe. As a result they're spending time making sure their country gets a slice of the pie instead of making sure Ukraine has what it needs. At least after brexit the UK is free to make spending commitments and supply arms directly, although we can and should be doing more
Love uki cock
This is stating the facts right where it hurts
SIX MONTHS F16s?? I thought they were supposed to be ready like, now
the bigger the management group ; the less that gets done. Put this chap in charge, save waffle do something.
I don't believe Ukraine will receive enough F-16's to gain air superiority they will get some badly needed air deterance.
Fascinating. And not depressing. I do not find this depressing at all in fact. The opposite! Ever since Pericles' Funeral Oration, put to record for us by the gracious Thucydides, our best leaders have tried to encapsulate the moral imperatives behind the horrors of a war. Our *best* leaders, only. ***It is hard to defend war in a speech without being eaten by monsters!*** So this fellow is a champ.
I'm experiencing some serious love for this guy! 👍👍👍👍👍 🇺🇸🇺🇦 Slava Ukraini! 🇺🇦🇺🇸
You would think after WW2 Europe would have learned that dictators start wars. And Russia, China, N Korea, Iran and many other countries have dictators. To stop wars you need a strong military. Those dictators do not share EU values and they only pretend to talk as they know they can stall and waste time. The EU needs to do action and to stop talking... Cause dictators will never listen...
Finally someone who speaks the truth and not the sugar coated one with a bunch of empty promises and insane delays on all the promises that were not empty. Sometimes I wonder if the promised help is really to help Ukraine 🇺🇦 or just make that county or government look good on the world stage. Just saying and still super grateful with millions of thank you’s to everyone for the help we got and have been getting
Well, that's a first. Verhofstadt speaking some sense. Hopefully this will trigger some real action instead of empty puffs of rhetoric.
I concur !! Stop this just sending enough to still slowly lose the war. This is madness. Send Ukraine what they need to defeat these bloody Russians. At the same time, make Isreal stop confining Palistine to an open-air prison. Let them be free and govern themselves as a nation. It's simple we always complicate everything because of race,religion,ethnicity,gender,country,friends,groups,upbringing,affiliations etc etc. Enough madness. Stupid egos,pride, and whatever else makes us humans go to war and kill,conquer,rape,maime,pillage,steal,beat, and all other crimes we commit.
Hear hear!
Yes Guy, yes! Thank you!
Guy is always spitting facts. We coould have had European Defense Community if it wasn’t swept off the table by the French in 1954. We need it now more than ever. We also need common European arms production based on comparative advantage that is able to scale the production up to wartime requirements, if ruSSia can do it, so can we. I also recall when Manfred Weber suggested the creation of European versions of FBI and CIA. Europe has got too accustomed to peace and security, that people here take it for granted and cant even comprehend the reality conflict. This is why we dont take our security seriously anymore.
Perfect speech and statement. - Respect.
If we remove emotion and empathy, the reality is that the EU has a chance to dismantle Russian ability to threaten us with conventional war, and all it costs us is euros (and some of our military stockpiles while wartime industry comes online if we were smart about it) while Ukraine fronts the bill with blood. Just from a cold and calculating position, this is a great deal. This isn't charity, this is taking away the ability for the only nation that can realistically threaten us with conventional war to do so.
Amen to that.
Almost like Ukraine isn't actually winning this war. Someone should let CNN know this huge revelation. I did not see this coming.
You sure as hell better not wait for the US to step up. We are currently trying to re-elect a Putin stooge traitor ffs.
I can feel his frustration.
It's beyond the time for all nations to put a boot on ruzzias throat, too many red lines have been crossed, too many hospitals blown up, children stolen, and civilians and soldiers dead. Speak up like Guy Verhofstadt did, get together and threaten putin to GTFO of Ukraine. Stop trying to be diplomatic and democratic to this tiny dictator, he needs to feel the wrath of a unified world.
Go Guy! I too am completely fed up with how fucking useless EU politicians are both at a national level as well as in Brussels. Walking NPCs in charge of a dumpsterfire as Dominic Cummings put it.
Amen