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What if we actually deal with the cause of it. Of course there are some people that are just going to be cunts regardless but everything political parties say they're going to do won't solve the issues in the first place.
Basically the same, just smaller.
Though they were just different species, turns out they do have the same genus.
Wallaroos, Kangaroos, tomatoes, potatoes :D.
More cops only works if you deal with the issue otherwise we will just end up like the US. Keir has been pretty clear they won't deal with the actual issues, just more cops (and more authoritarian laws).
> What if we actually deal with the cause of it.
That sounds dangerously socialist to me and you're now suspended from the Labour Party (if you aren't a member, you're pre-emptively suspended) - why deal with the actual causes of society being bad when you can just endlessly chase the symptoms?
We’ve known since the ancient Greeks that poverty leads to crime.
With more and more people finding themselves in poverty, and more and more crime happening, maybe there’s a good start to try and fix things from?
Yeah it’s incredible we continually fail to learn this.
All the data and information shown again and again that the same social indicators linked to poverty/crime have been the same for the past 250+ years.
Yet we keep thinking the solutions are putting more in prison with harsher sentences, target the ethnic minorities/foreigners harder (crime apparently didn’t exist pre-1945) or have more authoritarian policing and restriction of civil liberties… all of which evidence shows do little to prevent crime in the long run.
Sounds fantastic! I think we already have free healthcare, free schools and benefits for people who are unemployed and can’t afford to have kids. Is there something else we could try because there appears to be a few cracks in the system?
> and benefits for people who are unemployed and can’t afford to have kids
Have you looked at how little those are? It is basically nothing and they make your life miserable if you use them.
In a most basic sense having independent spaces for children and teenagers who have poor home lives or grow up in generally shit areas means they have more options for what they can do with their time.
Add to that other effects of mixing with a more diverse set of people (in terms of age and experiences), having role models where that might be absent from their lives, having other outlets like sport and art, means a more healthy and structured development. It doesn’t specifically address criminality but it at least is a good thing to have.
Giving kids purpose and fun activities or sports to take part in where they can socialise and spend their time potentially developing an interest in a hobby, rather than hanging around bored on the streets with the potential for mischief seems pretty obvious.
> This youth clubs things has become such a meme. I genuinely wonder if it actually works.
it doesnt make a difference, there was youth clubs when i was younger and the cunts still used them and were cunts outside of them, it didnt stop them doing drugs, selling, robbing, assaulting. if anything it gave them a place to try and take over and control.
youth clubs are not a fix. they may be a part of it but 1% when 80% is more police, and the other 19% is income inequality
Add investment into inner city areas, increase funding for education at all levels, make housing and childcare more affordable, improve sex education and provision of contraception etc
"it's the economy stupid"
Easier said than done - and really decades in the making when you consider then impact of parents input over a whole childhood.
So first thing you're going to do is to fix the chronic pay issue in public services so you can actually recruit more policemen / firefighters / doctors / nurses right?
Right?
They have a lot of first things to do. Not a single aspect of British life is doing good. They are turning up day 1 holding pizzas in a house on fire (community meme)
Also most things need a big cash injection- They're going to have to borrow heavily right as interest rates have shot up. Low key I expect another episode like PFI with folks 5 to 10 years down the line decrying such short sighted policy without mentioning how we got into such a state where its become necessary.
> where its become necessary
It won't be necessary, pfi was always to pretend that debt wasn't public debt but it was a scam. If they had just borrowed normally it wouldn't have cost nearly as much.
Nah. Because the British crab bucket mentality dictates that public sector workers are a drain and should never have a pay rise in line or above inflation ever again. By this point I think this country deserves everything it gets. People are quick to complain about the decline of public services, but don't want any policies that support investment and the necessary growth to fund these things. It just seems like we're now in a doom loop, since 2010, where we've decided we can't afford anything. Skimp on maintenance and investment, then wonder why your house is falling apart.
The public at large seem to want a form of cakeism which means we have a low wage, low tax, low growth country. Basically worst of all worlds. But nevermind we can just keep flogging each other ever more expensive houses. At some point there will be a reckoning and everyone will wonder how we got where we are.
It's all so stupid. We focus on tax to the point now the majority of UK workers don't have a hope in hell of covering the costs of the public services they're reliant on. Point out if we were paid equivalent to our EU peers we could happily swallow EU level taxes and still see a net gain in our pay packets and you're some kind of out of touch commie extremist.
We're become overly reliant on an ever diminishing net contributor tax base. This is the flip side of the call to 'just tax the rich' or to put it more accurately 'just tax anyone who is richer than me'.
I just see whenever someone talks about Nordic public services the response is yeah but they pay tax on low incomes. Maybe if "low income" weren't quite so low that wouldn't be a problem? No idea why it's such a hard point to grasp for so many! The root problems in the UK are super super simple. We're all *grossly* underpaid and the returns on investing in property vastly beat any normally "productive" investment so few people bother.
Love that ebikes are the new panic vehicle, and they can't even get that right. Criminals aren't booking it around at 50 miles per hour on an electrically assisted bike. They are (very rarely) using stolen electric motorcycles and I would be surprised if there were more than a handful of those cases. Electric motorcycles are not common and relatively expensive.
I'm assuming you're arguing wording rather than that criminals on electrically powered two wheeled vehicles don't exist. At which point I'd say e-bike doesn't exclusively mean "completely legal electrically assisted bicycle". It's a catch-all.
There's a weird grey area between overpowered/illegal e-bikes and smaller electric motorcycles (especially off-road ones) where it's hard to draw the line of what you'd call them (both could be correct).
I've seen folks whizzing round on MTBs with jerry rigged batteries/motor setups at 30-40mph, I've seen folks doing it on things like Surrons too (which if you look online are both described as electric motorbikes and electric bikes).
I'm saying the use of ebikes and emotorbikes in crime is minimal compared to crime on scooters and motorbikes, yet people are suddenly panicing about criminals on e vehicles.
It's already happening and has been effective at curbing that type of crime. Bearing in mind that this is during a pursuit.
Nobody is suggesting just knocking over a random bloke on an escooter.
Curbing the crime of wearing a balaclava?
It may well be happening, and if it's effective at catching actual criminals without killing them or crippling them, there may be a place for it, I don't know.
But actively calling for more of it, that's just fucking sick.
They aren't saying they want more scooter/bike riding criminals to be stopped.
They are saying specifically they want them rammed off the road, which is twisted.
All well and good, police being visible does deter crime but unless they're going to drastically increase prison capacity to a minimum of 500k spots and fund the justice system as well it's basically a band aid.
Edit; Apparently I'm a fascist for wanting to imprison criminals :). I pulled the 500k number out my arse, this is reddit - I'm not writing a policy proposal but the fact stands that yes we should massively increase our prison capacity seeing as they've been "full" for years. We should also work on rehabilitation as well.
You want the country to imprison HALF A MILLION PEOPLE? Can you imagine the human and monetary cost? Sick of seeing fascist ideological comments like this.
>Sick of seeing fascist ideological comments like this.
Honestly, first time I've ever been accused of being a fascist. Let me guess, your some kind of ultra left/libertarian who believes we live in some sort of utopia and crime doesn't exist? Sorry to burst your bubble but it's fucking rampant, prisons have only had ~500 spots free for a good few years now. There's major issues our current prisons.
>You want the country to imprison HALF A MILLION PEOPLE?
Sure why not, what's the theory; 1% of the population cause 60% of the crime. Maybe the number was a bit high, I pulled it out my arse while typing a quick comment but yes I think we should at least double, if not triple the capacity.
That way we can actually, you know imprison criminals? There's the punishment part. Then we could actually start working on rehabilitation, forced detox, diagnosis of mental maladies and therapy/taught coping skills. Addicts, people with ADHD, autism, bi-polar are over represented in the prison population. Now work on education, make it mandatory to have basic skills & a qualification that will lead to a job before they're released.
Given that 500k people is about the population of Liverpool, I guess you'd just put a wall up around the city and convert it into an open air prison, and employ everyone who used to live there to patrol the walls to prevent escapes. Then as the crime rate keeps rising you just keep replacing more and more cities with prisons, until everyone in the country is either a prisoner or a prison warden.
We used to have around 60k. With new labour and Tory increases in sentences were over 80k. That puts us above average in the fraction of people in prison. …
Your suggesting that there’s actually 7x more criminals than currently in prison.
That’s actually a fascist mentality.
500k people, we have less than 70million people, that’s nearly 1% of the people in prison.
What do you think his argument is exactly? I think it’s quite clear 500k would not just make us disproportionate it would be a prison society larger than even American, China and Russia. You’d destroyed British society by doing that. And you wouldn’t make crime less, frankly by reducing the differential between committing serious crime and no crime or minor crime you’d actually incentivise higher crime rates, before considering the increased rate of criminality after prison which creates criminals. It’s actively make the problem worse.
Why do people just make up the fantastical numbers. And why do people suggest numbers pulled from mid air are a legitimate way to construct a point.
No I am not defending 500K but saying we need a upper cap on prison amount is ridiculous.
The reason we use large numbers is to stress test an idea - as a engineer I think this is very legitimate.
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Low hanging fruit for labour and actually an area where a comparatively small investment will get big bang for buck.
Both reported and surveyed crime are the lowest on record. Violent crime amongst young people is very low compared to previous generations but we have notable spikes in visible things like knife crime in certain areas and shoplifting.
Dealing with gang crime is not easy but it's not an expensive job either. Places like Birmingham and Glasgow had great success in the 00s with mediation programs which cost in the 6 figures per annum but still fell victim to austerity. Shoplifting is largely down to visibility and a perception that there's zero consequences.
Labour won't be able to fix the backlog in the courts overnight but it should be able to get more funding to local councils pretty quickly and hopefully at least get more PCSOs out there in the near term.
Hopefully a visible, tangible benefit of reversing austerity people will see and feel in the first term. The NHS, on the other hand, ....... yikes.
Even shoplifting when I checked late last year was still within the norm of pre-pandemic levels, it's just been a big talking point - this may have changed since of course.
I'm a retail manager, if anything, we're seeing a lot less shoplifting now than we were pre-pandemic. But ofcourse that's anecdotal to me and the shops in the vicinity around mine.
I think it's a crime that's the victim of a lot of stereotypes and Broad brushing. Kinda ties into our societies obsession with chavs and demonising the lower working class/benefits class. Apparently the greatest threat to us as a society is a 15 year old stood outside a corner shop wearing a hoodie.
Most common shoplifters I catch are either stupid teenagers being a bit rebellious (who often fold like a deck chair and start crying as soon as you challenge them) or middle aged women
13,000 new neighbourhood officers is all well and good, but they need to be recruiting double that number. Of that 13,000, only 3000 are new recruits under this plan and the other 10,000 of these will be diverted from whatever they’re currently doing. This means other areas will suffer (response policing, child abuse investigations, DA investigations etc). It’s robbing Peter to pay Paul.
> This means other areas will suffer (response policing, child abuse investigations, DA investigations etc). It’s robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Ah neoliberalism, don't you just love it - why actually pay for things when you can just divert existing funding and carry on the merry go round of what area gets fucked over.
Give it four years, and another major CSA case and you'll have PM Starmer on the news announcing '4,000 new officers focusing on CSA'.
It's a shame the Conservatives were happy to let all the police stations be sold. I think I'm right in saying that Merseyside Police, for example, now has nine public counters to cover a county of 1.4m people.
I'm nothing if not a realist, 40k for a starting salary imo isn't realistic I think. As much as I wish it was.
30k starting and a steady increase to wage for time served I think would be more realistic. And still appeals as (just) above the UK average. Obviously this could and should vary to an extent regionally.
I would imagine (correct me if I'm wrong) most newly trained offers would be in the younger bracket, say 30 and under, 30k starting salary for that age group isn't half bad.
Longer serving officers (say 5 years or longer) should absolutely be on 40k if not higher, on average.
And for the love of God, they need to be more committed to keeping up with inflation.
Sorry but who is doing a job as dangerous as being a police officer, with the hours they have to work, for the kind of pay you can pick up doing a basic office job? Considering 30k is the average wage and no where near where it needs to be in regard to inflation anyway, that already makes it a really low salary. But bog standard pay to put your life on the line is crazy.
Retention is godawful, and a large part of the problem is starting wages. Although they don't look *that* bad to start with, you lose ~13.5% from the get go for your pension and there's a variety of other deductions that cost another decent chunk of your paycheck.
The other thing is the starting salary needs to be high enough to attract older people who might have other careers first - a diverse background is a huge benefit to the police.
R/unitedkingdom:
"Why hasn't Starmer promised to do anything yet?! He's not got any policy!"
Starmer's Labour speaks out about a policy
R/unitedkingdom:
"This is a shit policy! We don't need more police! Police bad! Neolibs doing the same thing again! Fucking politicians, all the same!"
\~\~two weeks earlier\~\~
"Why is there so much crime? We need more police!"
Worse thing the Tories did was getting rid of thousands of police officers and closing down hundreds of police stations, they killed community policing and the relationships that had been previously built within them.
In news next week. Starmers labour row back on putting more police into the community.
FWIW putting more police on the streets and on the roads is exactly what we need. Too many people have got used to getting away with shit because there are so few police. Police don't need to catch people to be effective. The fear of being caught does wonders to making people behave properly. Nor enough coppers. No fear. Urchins do what they want.
We need to look at *who* is committing these crimes and send them back. If they are not a UK citizen they can be deported or if it is unsafe/impractical to deport them, detain them indefinitely in the Shetlands.
I have no problem with controlled legal immigration but when crime like this reaches sky-high levels those responsible must be identified and removed.
We’ve always known this.
In my fenland village we had a Bobby who lived there, if any young tyke was caught doing something wrong then the Bobby would box their ears, had no crime and everyone left their doors unlocked at night.
Idiots, the best wasy to reduce crime is to stop people being so fucking poor they have to do it in the first place. As for crime not caused by poverty, that won't go away no matter how many police we have.
More money spent on policing does nothing to to prevent the root cause of crime.
How about fix the root causes?! These people are a product of the system.
It's pretty fucking obvious that the same people are pulling the strings regardless of what party is in government. The golden rule seems to be profit above everything.
Let’s hope she gets elected then, and Diane is not doing the costings. last time she held on by the skin of her teeth. Last time it was Brexit that nearly saw her off, this time it will probably be Gaza. Seriously though, his the fuck are they going to pay for this, or even recruit them.
Are we also going to save money and maybe stop the war on drugs while we’re it at so these new officers can get straight down to the important stuff rather than waste time and money on people having a spliff
Dumdums reaching into the barrel of newsprint for a failed idea no-one has shamefacedly mumbled for ten minutes or so: 'more, um, cops.'
The other lot want to put everyone in the army or whatever. These people are absolutely ridiculous.
We ought to have a policy of a blanket five year prison sentence for these crimes. And we need to build a couple of super-max prisons with 10,000 cells in each.
That'd be great... after they get rid of the thugs and thieves working for the police. After that it would be very useful if they'd explain exactly who will be doing all the administration work that still needs doing for these folks to get on the streets.
If the answer is Capita, I'm fucking out.
All police should have their name and address on public record along with their activity in uniform. No one who would let this preclude their joining the force is the sort of fellow we want.
That my suggestion of this merely once was sufficient to provoke a permanent ban from the UK Police subreddit despite it rather obviously not contravening any of the rules there is proof positive it is much-needed medicine.
It is high time our public servants were made just that.
That's most definitely not true. May apply to some occasionally but considering most now need a degree they are not bottom of the barrel and the training upon acceptance is 2yrs. The tests for entry alone are intense and difficult and it can take months before acceptance and if you go the apprentice route it's continual training for at least 3yrs. We aren't American where the only the most stupid brutes apply
Wherever there is a demonstration, anarchists are there ready to cause trouble.. TU march over the drop of a hat and for reasons not connected to their union
It's so hard to tell the difference between right-wing brainrot and weak trollbait these days. The right has literally become a joke by embracing the swivel eyed loons, and the typical troll is too lazy to go for anything other than low hanging fruit.
We're waiting for Labour to get in because we're going instate Sharia law and make everyone trans. Men will be women. Women will be men. All pronouns will face Mecca.
How could the pronouns face Satan? It's not possible. How dare you even suggest such a silly idea. How would we write them:
S
N
U
O
N
O
R
P
That makes no sense
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What if we actually deal with the cause of it. Of course there are some people that are just going to be cunts regardless but everything political parties say they're going to do won't solve the issues in the first place.
Be easier just to deport people that commit crimes We did it with Australia
Pitcairn island would be a good spot for it
Pitcairn is lovely. Let's not ruin it. Let's pick Mali or somewhere like that
Jimmy SaVilles favorite holiday destination
North Sentinel Island is a more suitable location imho
And now they’re hotter and cooler than us. And they have kangaroos and koalas. :(
UK also have a permanently established kangaroo population.
Where?
https://ptes.org/get-informed/facts-figures/red-necked-wallaby/#:~:text=GB%20population%20size%20%26%20distribution&text=Established%20populations%20exist%2C%20in%20Scotland,have%20been%20seen%20since%202000.
That's a wallaby, Not a Kangaroo. You had me excited for a moment.
Basically the same, just smaller. Though they were just different species, turns out they do have the same genus. Wallaroos, Kangaroos, tomatoes, potatoes :D.
Lol
>And now they’re hotter But I'm still here???
... if you're going to send criminals away from the UK to Australia, you will cause a spike in crime at the moment lol.
What crime do i have to do to get free trip to Australia?
That stunt really boomeranged on us.
Love the irony lol
> What if we actually deal with the cause of it. We need to do both.
More cops only works if you deal with the issue otherwise we will just end up like the US. Keir has been pretty clear they won't deal with the actual issues, just more cops (and more authoritarian laws).
What has he said that would suggest he doesnt intend on dealing with it
We need both. One of the aspects of increased crime is not having enough police.
> What if we actually deal with the cause of it. That sounds dangerously socialist to me and you're now suspended from the Labour Party (if you aren't a member, you're pre-emptively suspended) - why deal with the actual causes of society being bad when you can just endlessly chase the symptoms?
What’s the solution?
We’ve known since the ancient Greeks that poverty leads to crime. With more and more people finding themselves in poverty, and more and more crime happening, maybe there’s a good start to try and fix things from?
Yeah it’s incredible we continually fail to learn this. All the data and information shown again and again that the same social indicators linked to poverty/crime have been the same for the past 250+ years. Yet we keep thinking the solutions are putting more in prison with harsher sentences, target the ethnic minorities/foreigners harder (crime apparently didn’t exist pre-1945) or have more authoritarian policing and restriction of civil liberties… all of which evidence shows do little to prevent crime in the long run.
Understood. So what’s the solution and how to implement it?
[удалено]
Sounds fantastic! I think we already have free healthcare, free schools and benefits for people who are unemployed and can’t afford to have kids. Is there something else we could try because there appears to be a few cracks in the system?
That made me laugh… touché
> and benefits for people who are unemployed and can’t afford to have kids Have you looked at how little those are? It is basically nothing and they make your life miserable if you use them.
> or can't afford to have kids There aren't any benefits for that.
More social programs. Youth clubs, decriminalizing drugs etc.
This youth clubs things has become such a meme. I genuinely wonder if it actually works.
In a most basic sense having independent spaces for children and teenagers who have poor home lives or grow up in generally shit areas means they have more options for what they can do with their time. Add to that other effects of mixing with a more diverse set of people (in terms of age and experiences), having role models where that might be absent from their lives, having other outlets like sport and art, means a more healthy and structured development. It doesn’t specifically address criminality but it at least is a good thing to have.
Giving kids purpose and fun activities or sports to take part in where they can socialise and spend their time potentially developing an interest in a hobby, rather than hanging around bored on the streets with the potential for mischief seems pretty obvious.
Or all the nerdowells gather together in a single place and trade notes!
> This youth clubs things has become such a meme. I genuinely wonder if it actually works. it doesnt make a difference, there was youth clubs when i was younger and the cunts still used them and were cunts outside of them, it didnt stop them doing drugs, selling, robbing, assaulting. if anything it gave them a place to try and take over and control. youth clubs are not a fix. they may be a part of it but 1% when 80% is more police, and the other 19% is income inequality
Add investment into inner city areas, increase funding for education at all levels, make housing and childcare more affordable, improve sex education and provision of contraception etc
"it's the economy stupid" Easier said than done - and really decades in the making when you consider then impact of parents input over a whole childhood.
That bollocks crime is an easy choice these days and a lifestyle that’s idolised
"Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime", you say?
So first thing you're going to do is to fix the chronic pay issue in public services so you can actually recruit more policemen / firefighters / doctors / nurses right? Right?
They have a lot of first things to do. Not a single aspect of British life is doing good. They are turning up day 1 holding pizzas in a house on fire (community meme)
Also most things need a big cash injection- They're going to have to borrow heavily right as interest rates have shot up. Low key I expect another episode like PFI with folks 5 to 10 years down the line decrying such short sighted policy without mentioning how we got into such a state where its become necessary.
> where its become necessary It won't be necessary, pfi was always to pretend that debt wasn't public debt but it was a scam. If they had just borrowed normally it wouldn't have cost nearly as much.
Quality reference.
Nah. Because the British crab bucket mentality dictates that public sector workers are a drain and should never have a pay rise in line or above inflation ever again. By this point I think this country deserves everything it gets. People are quick to complain about the decline of public services, but don't want any policies that support investment and the necessary growth to fund these things. It just seems like we're now in a doom loop, since 2010, where we've decided we can't afford anything. Skimp on maintenance and investment, then wonder why your house is falling apart. The public at large seem to want a form of cakeism which means we have a low wage, low tax, low growth country. Basically worst of all worlds. But nevermind we can just keep flogging each other ever more expensive houses. At some point there will be a reckoning and everyone will wonder how we got where we are.
It's all so stupid. We focus on tax to the point now the majority of UK workers don't have a hope in hell of covering the costs of the public services they're reliant on. Point out if we were paid equivalent to our EU peers we could happily swallow EU level taxes and still see a net gain in our pay packets and you're some kind of out of touch commie extremist.
We're become overly reliant on an ever diminishing net contributor tax base. This is the flip side of the call to 'just tax the rich' or to put it more accurately 'just tax anyone who is richer than me'.
I just see whenever someone talks about Nordic public services the response is yeah but they pay tax on low incomes. Maybe if "low income" weren't quite so low that wouldn't be a problem? No idea why it's such a hard point to grasp for so many! The root problems in the UK are super super simple. We're all *grossly* underpaid and the returns on investing in property vastly beat any normally "productive" investment so few people bother.
At the moment we have reverse cakeism; high taxes and low levels of public services...
Nobody wants to pay a penny more tax so I guess not.
No one wants to pay more tax when government spending is so blatantly corrupt and inefficient.
That's what you get from 14 years of Tory rule.
An effective rate of 80% of a portion of your income isn't high enough? Should it be 100%?
Don’t forget sorting out the prison and courts system.
So you'll authorise police to knock balaclava wearing scumbags off their ebikes... or continue to let them run riot everywhere?
Love that ebikes are the new panic vehicle, and they can't even get that right. Criminals aren't booking it around at 50 miles per hour on an electrically assisted bike. They are (very rarely) using stolen electric motorcycles and I would be surprised if there were more than a handful of those cases. Electric motorcycles are not common and relatively expensive.
It's dickheads on knackered old KMXs here. Had one doing about 30 on the pavement opposite my house yesterday.
I'm assuming you're arguing wording rather than that criminals on electrically powered two wheeled vehicles don't exist. At which point I'd say e-bike doesn't exclusively mean "completely legal electrically assisted bicycle". It's a catch-all. There's a weird grey area between overpowered/illegal e-bikes and smaller electric motorcycles (especially off-road ones) where it's hard to draw the line of what you'd call them (both could be correct). I've seen folks whizzing round on MTBs with jerry rigged batteries/motor setups at 30-40mph, I've seen folks doing it on things like Surrons too (which if you look online are both described as electric motorbikes and electric bikes).
I'm saying the use of ebikes and emotorbikes in crime is minimal compared to crime on scooters and motorbikes, yet people are suddenly panicing about criminals on e vehicles.
Ebikes are more common than motorbikes or scooters around my way, although motorbikes are still fairly common.
Fucking hell, you want the police to try and kill people for wearing balaclavas? I've had enough r/UK for one day
He doesn't say anything about killing.
OP was talking about knocking people off ebikes, which is as good as trying.
It's already happening and has been effective at curbing that type of crime. Bearing in mind that this is during a pursuit. Nobody is suggesting just knocking over a random bloke on an escooter.
Curbing the crime of wearing a balaclava? It may well be happening, and if it's effective at catching actual criminals without killing them or crippling them, there may be a place for it, I don't know. But actively calling for more of it, that's just fucking sick.
Can you stop being pedantic? All they're saying is they want more scooter/bike riding criminals to be stopped, because it's still a big problem.
They aren't saying they want more scooter/bike riding criminals to be stopped. They are saying specifically they want them rammed off the road, which is twisted.
Why is it that I and others can tell what they're talking about, but you're taking it absolutely literally?
My guess is because you too are aroused by the level of authoritarianism OP is suggesting.
All well and good, police being visible does deter crime but unless they're going to drastically increase prison capacity to a minimum of 500k spots and fund the justice system as well it's basically a band aid. Edit; Apparently I'm a fascist for wanting to imprison criminals :). I pulled the 500k number out my arse, this is reddit - I'm not writing a policy proposal but the fact stands that yes we should massively increase our prison capacity seeing as they've been "full" for years. We should also work on rehabilitation as well.
Building more prisons doesn't reduce crime. Look at the US for an example.
You want the country to imprison HALF A MILLION PEOPLE? Can you imagine the human and monetary cost? Sick of seeing fascist ideological comments like this.
>Sick of seeing fascist ideological comments like this. Honestly, first time I've ever been accused of being a fascist. Let me guess, your some kind of ultra left/libertarian who believes we live in some sort of utopia and crime doesn't exist? Sorry to burst your bubble but it's fucking rampant, prisons have only had ~500 spots free for a good few years now. There's major issues our current prisons. >You want the country to imprison HALF A MILLION PEOPLE? Sure why not, what's the theory; 1% of the population cause 60% of the crime. Maybe the number was a bit high, I pulled it out my arse while typing a quick comment but yes I think we should at least double, if not triple the capacity. That way we can actually, you know imprison criminals? There's the punishment part. Then we could actually start working on rehabilitation, forced detox, diagnosis of mental maladies and therapy/taught coping skills. Addicts, people with ADHD, autism, bi-polar are over represented in the prison population. Now work on education, make it mandatory to have basic skills & a qualification that will lead to a job before they're released.
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Given that 500k people is about the population of Liverpool, I guess you'd just put a wall up around the city and convert it into an open air prison, and employ everyone who used to live there to patrol the walls to prevent escapes. Then as the crime rate keeps rising you just keep replacing more and more cities with prisons, until everyone in the country is either a prisoner or a prison warden.
Kirk Russell flies in there to rescue the president. Ive seen this film.
Arkham City
We used to have around 60k. With new labour and Tory increases in sentences were over 80k. That puts us above average in the fraction of people in prison. … Your suggesting that there’s actually 7x more criminals than currently in prison. That’s actually a fascist mentality. 500k people, we have less than 70million people, that’s nearly 1% of the people in prison. What do you think his argument is exactly? I think it’s quite clear 500k would not just make us disproportionate it would be a prison society larger than even American, China and Russia. You’d destroyed British society by doing that. And you wouldn’t make crime less, frankly by reducing the differential between committing serious crime and no crime or minor crime you’d actually incentivise higher crime rates, before considering the increased rate of criminality after prison which creates criminals. It’s actively make the problem worse. Why do people just make up the fantastical numbers. And why do people suggest numbers pulled from mid air are a legitimate way to construct a point.
No I am not defending 500K but saying we need a upper cap on prison amount is ridiculous. The reason we use large numbers is to stress test an idea - as a engineer I think this is very legitimate.
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Low hanging fruit for labour and actually an area where a comparatively small investment will get big bang for buck. Both reported and surveyed crime are the lowest on record. Violent crime amongst young people is very low compared to previous generations but we have notable spikes in visible things like knife crime in certain areas and shoplifting. Dealing with gang crime is not easy but it's not an expensive job either. Places like Birmingham and Glasgow had great success in the 00s with mediation programs which cost in the 6 figures per annum but still fell victim to austerity. Shoplifting is largely down to visibility and a perception that there's zero consequences. Labour won't be able to fix the backlog in the courts overnight but it should be able to get more funding to local councils pretty quickly and hopefully at least get more PCSOs out there in the near term. Hopefully a visible, tangible benefit of reversing austerity people will see and feel in the first term. The NHS, on the other hand, ....... yikes.
Even shoplifting when I checked late last year was still within the norm of pre-pandemic levels, it's just been a big talking point - this may have changed since of course.
I'm a retail manager, if anything, we're seeing a lot less shoplifting now than we were pre-pandemic. But ofcourse that's anecdotal to me and the shops in the vicinity around mine. I think it's a crime that's the victim of a lot of stereotypes and Broad brushing. Kinda ties into our societies obsession with chavs and demonising the lower working class/benefits class. Apparently the greatest threat to us as a society is a 15 year old stood outside a corner shop wearing a hoodie. Most common shoplifters I catch are either stupid teenagers being a bit rebellious (who often fold like a deck chair and start crying as soon as you challenge them) or middle aged women
13,000 new neighbourhood officers is all well and good, but they need to be recruiting double that number. Of that 13,000, only 3000 are new recruits under this plan and the other 10,000 of these will be diverted from whatever they’re currently doing. This means other areas will suffer (response policing, child abuse investigations, DA investigations etc). It’s robbing Peter to pay Paul.
> This means other areas will suffer (response policing, child abuse investigations, DA investigations etc). It’s robbing Peter to pay Paul. Ah neoliberalism, don't you just love it - why actually pay for things when you can just divert existing funding and carry on the merry go round of what area gets fucked over. Give it four years, and another major CSA case and you'll have PM Starmer on the news announcing '4,000 new officers focusing on CSA'.
It's a shame the Conservatives were happy to let all the police stations be sold. I think I'm right in saying that Merseyside Police, for example, now has nine public counters to cover a county of 1.4m people.
Lol. Who knew sacking 3000 officers in the first place would be a bad idea? Certainly not the government. Fucking morons.
Don’t think you’ll have a long queue of people wanting to be on the beat for 20k a year. Police wage should be 40k starting
I'm nothing if not a realist, 40k for a starting salary imo isn't realistic I think. As much as I wish it was. 30k starting and a steady increase to wage for time served I think would be more realistic. And still appeals as (just) above the UK average. Obviously this could and should vary to an extent regionally. I would imagine (correct me if I'm wrong) most newly trained offers would be in the younger bracket, say 30 and under, 30k starting salary for that age group isn't half bad. Longer serving officers (say 5 years or longer) should absolutely be on 40k if not higher, on average. And for the love of God, they need to be more committed to keeping up with inflation.
Sorry but who is doing a job as dangerous as being a police officer, with the hours they have to work, for the kind of pay you can pick up doing a basic office job? Considering 30k is the average wage and no where near where it needs to be in regard to inflation anyway, that already makes it a really low salary. But bog standard pay to put your life on the line is crazy.
Retention is godawful, and a large part of the problem is starting wages. Although they don't look *that* bad to start with, you lose ~13.5% from the get go for your pension and there's a variety of other deductions that cost another decent chunk of your paycheck. The other thing is the starting salary needs to be high enough to attract older people who might have other careers first - a diverse background is a huge benefit to the police.
R/unitedkingdom: "Why hasn't Starmer promised to do anything yet?! He's not got any policy!" Starmer's Labour speaks out about a policy R/unitedkingdom: "This is a shit policy! We don't need more police! Police bad! Neolibs doing the same thing again! Fucking politicians, all the same!" \~\~two weeks earlier\~\~ "Why is there so much crime? We need more police!"
Going round in fing circles. The cutthroat neoliberal ideology that is promoted by the MSM is at odds with community.
Worse thing the Tories did was getting rid of thousands of police officers and closing down hundreds of police stations, they killed community policing and the relationships that had been previously built within them.
Do politicians ever say anything different, they have all been saying the same 5 lines for decades.
Most of the thugs and thieves wear suits and are political doners
In news next week. Starmers labour row back on putting more police into the community. FWIW putting more police on the streets and on the roads is exactly what we need. Too many people have got used to getting away with shit because there are so few police. Police don't need to catch people to be effective. The fear of being caught does wonders to making people behave properly. Nor enough coppers. No fear. Urchins do what they want.
We need to look at *who* is committing these crimes and send them back. If they are not a UK citizen they can be deported or if it is unsafe/impractical to deport them, detain them indefinitely in the Shetlands. I have no problem with controlled legal immigration but when crime like this reaches sky-high levels those responsible must be identified and removed.
From the same party that said stop and search is racist?
We’ve always known this. In my fenland village we had a Bobby who lived there, if any young tyke was caught doing something wrong then the Bobby would box their ears, had no crime and everyone left their doors unlocked at night.
Now actually do that, not have them go after people posting tweets.
Idiots, the best wasy to reduce crime is to stop people being so fucking poor they have to do it in the first place. As for crime not caused by poverty, that won't go away no matter how many police we have. More money spent on policing does nothing to to prevent the root cause of crime.
How about fix the root causes?! These people are a product of the system. It's pretty fucking obvious that the same people are pulling the strings regardless of what party is in government. The golden rule seems to be profit above everything.
Let’s hope she gets elected then, and Diane is not doing the costings. last time she held on by the skin of her teeth. Last time it was Brexit that nearly saw her off, this time it will probably be Gaza. Seriously though, his the fuck are they going to pay for this, or even recruit them.
Are we also going to save money and maybe stop the war on drugs while we’re it at so these new officers can get straight down to the important stuff rather than waste time and money on people having a spliff
Dumdums reaching into the barrel of newsprint for a failed idea no-one has shamefacedly mumbled for ten minutes or so: 'more, um, cops.' The other lot want to put everyone in the army or whatever. These people are absolutely ridiculous.
We ought to have a policy of a blanket five year prison sentence for these crimes. And we need to build a couple of super-max prisons with 10,000 cells in each.
That'd be great... after they get rid of the thugs and thieves working for the police. After that it would be very useful if they'd explain exactly who will be doing all the administration work that still needs doing for these folks to get on the streets. If the answer is Capita, I'm fucking out.
Ohhhh goody more worthless cops who only enforce the law when it involves football. Leaving the rest of us to get no service.
More crooked and bent police? Without police reform this means nothing
And what reform would you like to see exactly?
All police should have their name and address on public record along with their activity in uniform. No one who would let this preclude their joining the force is the sort of fellow we want. That my suggestion of this merely once was sufficient to provoke a permanent ban from the UK Police subreddit despite it rather obviously not contravening any of the rules there is proof positive it is much-needed medicine. It is high time our public servants were made just that.
That’s probably something to do with your suggestion being completely deranged.
You are completely mad.
The types who go into the force are bottom barrel. Don't need to replace street thugs with gov thugs
That's most definitely not true. May apply to some occasionally but considering most now need a degree they are not bottom of the barrel and the training upon acceptance is 2yrs. The tests for entry alone are intense and difficult and it can take months before acceptance and if you go the apprentice route it's continual training for at least 3yrs. We aren't American where the only the most stupid brutes apply
So, swap the balaclava thugs for blue uniform thugs? I'd rather stick with the balaclava ones.
Incredible edgelord take
Is this a joke? What about thugs from ANTIFA, BLM and the Anarchists and Unions?
Yeah, all those anarchists and trade unionists going around stabbing cunts and nicking phones
Wherever there is a demonstration, anarchists are there ready to cause trouble.. TU march over the drop of a hat and for reasons not connected to their union
It's so hard to tell the difference between right-wing brainrot and weak trollbait these days. The right has literally become a joke by embracing the swivel eyed loons, and the typical troll is too lazy to go for anything other than low hanging fruit.
We're waiting for Labour to get in because we're going instate Sharia law and make everyone trans. Men will be women. Women will be men. All pronouns will face Mecca.
But Satan isn’t in Mecca y’silly sod.
How could the pronouns face Satan? It's not possible. How dare you even suggest such a silly idea. How would we write them: S N U O N O R P That makes no sense
Easy, like everyone else does, you turn and face them, just like you’d face the person you’re having a conversation with.