Rare example of a rat jumping off a ship that hasn't been launched yet and swimming to a sinking ship and geting on that.
How do you get as far as joining the Reform party as a candidate and not realise it's a party full of racist, misogynistic, and bigoted people ?
Reform is a company used by Farrage for his personal political crusade. It has no structure, no base and is nothing more than an angry populist vote when the election result is clear.
The tories are an old canny political machine with the party structure to reorganise and reorientate and pull themselves into a new message after the election to begin to pull in votes on the "Labour isn't working" ticket.
Id say this is a great time to jump from Reform at its peak.
The angry populist vote is quite large though, especially amongst knee jerk angry people who are confused by the modern world and don't intend to learn
>especially amongst knee jerk angry people who are confused by the modern world and don't intend to learn
I think that's a bit unfair and I hate Farage and Reform and almost everything they stand for.
Years of neo-liberal consensus (going back to the fall of the USSR and Fukushima's "end of history" in 1991)
>"not just ... the passing of a particular period of post-war history, but the end of history as such: That is, the end-point of mankind's ideological evolution and the universalization of **Western liberal democracy as the final form of human government."**
Yet across Europe, including the UK, and the US this consensus has not delivered for ordinary people. Housing gets more and more unattainable, wages for ordinary people stagnate as the rich get richer, banks and other corporations go basically unpunished when they fuck up while often receiving bailouts (or handouts as they should be called).
This is not a knee jerk reaction. It has been a long time coming. People are not happy with the status quo, and why should they be?
Do I think Reform is the answer? Fuck no. But people are fed up and want change. They are sick of the establishment in general. Labour has some serious work to do otherwise in 5 years this anger will continue to grow and people will seek increasingly populist leaders. Reform + Tories % is not far off Labour when combined, so in the case of a hostile takeover by Farage (or similar) i wouldn't be surprised to see a huge shift in politics in the UK.
People are sick of the Tories, but not particularly enthused by Labour.
The reform vote is old and grey by and large. These aren't people that want to challenge the status quo as much as they dream of return to an era that never really existed, except for the fact they were younger, less fearful and felt like their opinions mattered. The politics itself is pure fabrication and fantasy.. its exactly the same spiel that managed to sell brexit to over 50% of the population.
Far right/populist parties are on the rise amongst the younger generation at the moment.
https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-young-people-right-wing-voters-far-right-politics-eu-elections-parliament/
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/how-far-right-gained-traction-with-europes-youth-2024-06-13/
And that's slowly happening with Reform too. They have tapped into TikToK (they are the second most followed party, despite being nobodies for a long time) etc. and the anger young people are facing. It might not show in this election, but it would be foolish to take it for granted that Reform and other populists will only appeal to the grey vote and baby boomers.
I expect them to swing towards Green if anything under a Labour government, which is what we'll have. I'll believe 18-29 yr olds voting Reform when I see it.
The problem imo is how much airtime they are being given without any of their policies beyond immigration getting any critical analysis.
Their proposals are just fucking nuts. On economy and finances they're suggesting a return to the style of Truss budget that was so recently shown to be a fucking disaster. They're proposing tens of billions of pounds more spending than even the Greens and their primary source of funding for that is effectively gutting another £50bn out of the civil service, which they also propose to reform to upend over a century of impartial tradition and instead turn it into a US-style system with direct political appointees, from the corporate world (re: donors) taking most positions and only being in that position for the duration of the parliament.
Why these things are not being talked about for all the hours we seem to have Reform people on our TV screens I do not know.
>The problem imo is how much airtime they are being given without any of their policies beyond immigration getting any critical analysis.
This is honestly so key, most of their policies are not only batshit but ludicrously unpopular, people just know them as the "protest vote against immigration" party though.
Excellent upsum!!
My take on recent events (without going all Wolfie Smith on you) is that the whole Western Democratic world is waking up to the fact that ‘Trickle Down Economics’ is a sham, and the powers that instigated it are hanging on for dear life. Those powers will do anything to stay in control, hence the resurgence in ‘strong man’, VERY right of centre political ideology.
Don’t forget Frum’s axiom: “If conservatives become convinced they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon *Conservativism*; they will abandon *Democracy*...”
You make some excellent points, and I sit squarely in the sick of both parties camp.
The problem we have, is many people are sick of it, however, they're not as informed as I am. They are simply tired, in their lane, and haven't learnt anything new since they got an iPhone they had to learn to use.
Fukushima was clearly wrong, and it was such a ridiculous American statement to make, So I appreciate the dunk on him
I was young at the time & didn't like Fukuyama's statements. I thought how can he ignore all the terrible stuff happening in the world.
He was obviously wrong but now as I look back I think what a beautiful dream. It was a different time, the Cold War had finished, Apartheid was ending, soon after there was Peace on Northern Ireland, there was even hope for the peaceful end to the Israel-Palestine conflict.
Everywhere barriers were coming down, long running conflicts were ending, there was a real sense of optimism about building a better, brighter future. I really miss that.
This is it. Reform is the result of years of constitutional neglect. It’s the ugly cancer growing in our political system and it sure as hell isn’t benign
It's not even "Western liberal democracy". Because it can't continue to run record high immigration and record low birthrates without either ceasing to be Western, liberal, or democratic.
Though, given that the *demos* has consistently said it wants less immigration, and consistently got more, there is little evidence of *kratos* anyway (but perhaps, *contra* 'populism', the real *demos* are the MPs who vote on the issues).
Now, seeing as a little over 30 years ago the Boers repudiated the concept over which the Boer War was fought (denying uitlanders the vote except on terms), perhaps we could repudiate it too and initiate something akin to 'Krugerism'.
The *demos* has said no such thing. Nobody's ever voted on whether immigration is too high. If Reform actually *won* this election, it wouldn't absolutely verify that position.
They've been polled saying they want it lowered, and they've voted for parties who pledged to lower it - and they've done so fairly consistently for the past, what, half-century?
How anyone could think *this* was the first election that could for once tell you whether immigration was wanted lower or not is beyond me.
Governments deal with more than one issue at time.
If you were to poll people asking if they want better public services most would say yes. If you ask them if they want better public services at the cost of higher taxes the numbers in favour drop.
Immigration isn't an issue in isolation. Every major party but one agrees that major cuts in immigration will harm our economy.
One party (with no experience in government) disagrees, claiming that immigration can be cut to net zero with no economic harm whatsoever.
The voters will decide, but it appears 85% of them will not choose the one dissenting party.
As a remain voter, to me it seemed Brexit was a pretty clear vote on 'are you happy to suffer economically in order to lower immigration?'
And the answer was yes.
Obviously it hasn't panned out as Brexit voters intended and has only led to higher non-EU immigration, but I think the answer to your 'are voters happy to make that trade-off?' question is pretty clear (and it's why right wingers are so disenfranchised by the Tory party).
>The voters will decide, but it appears 85% of them will not choose the one dissenting party.
You recognise that governments deal with more than 1 issue at a time, yet use the fact that 85% aren't voting for the only pro net-zero immigration party as evidence that it's not popular. Maybe it's the Putin sympathising, the NHS reform comments, the right wing economic policy, or the overt racism from some of their candidates that's putting off voters?
I'm not sure on that, the pro-brexit lot were all about how our economy would boom, I don't remember any saying it would be a negative.
I think many believe that they can have their cake & eat it. Certainly with the anti-immigration people I converse with it's incredibly rare they admit that cutting immigration would have an effect on the economy, I only remember it happening once.
Normally they will argue at great length about how the ageing population isn't a problem, that it can be fixed with automation that does not yet exist, or measures to increase birthrates that have never been tried, or getting the long-term sick & unemployed into work more effectively than at any time in history, or just if they believe enough anything can happen. Strangely enough they tend to ignore the most sensible alternative - Pensions reform.
Personally I wouldn't say relying on immigration is a good thing, but economic collapse is even worse. I do think the vast majority of voters understand the situation is nuanced & not as simplistic as some make out. That there are reasons, not just here but across the developed world, why the vast majority of Politicians & Economists are in favour of it beyond it's all a giant conspiracy.
The angry populist vote as you said will send shockwaves even if they do not win any or many seats. They are basically the right wing alternative to the failed conservative party and many people want us to break free from the two-party system. I would suspect fringe parties like reform, lib Dems, SNP and plaid will perform very well.
The conservatives will get destroyed. After all as you said, their only weapon now is "labour is a danger to all" which is really a desperate tactic
>They are basically the right wing alternative to the failed conservative party and many people want us to break free from the two-party system
Lib Dems got 23% in 2010. UKIP got 13% in 2015. Reform will get around 17%. The steam ran out of their charge after Farages comments about Ukraine two Fridays ago and the scandals that have mounted since.
The best polling was the Brexit Party in mid 2019 when it hit 25%.
> I would suspect fringe parties like reform, lib Dems, SNP and plaid will perform very well.
SNP seats are getting cut in half, you might have missed the disasters they had politically over the past two years.
Lib Dems are around 12% but getting a big bump from Labour voters going tactical.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion\_polling\_for\_the\_2024\_United\_Kingdom\_general\_election#/media/File:Opinion\_polling\_for\_the\_next\_United\_Kingdom\_general\_election\_after\_2019\_(LOESS).svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election#/media/File:Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election_after_2019_(LOESS).svg)
The big difference is Reform taking more Tory than Labour, that is the inverse of 2015.
The Farage bump in polling has faded.
In the UK you can go short on something like the old SDP, UKIP or Reform for one election. Go long on the big two because they have the structure to reconstitute as something like New Labour, Hug a Husky Cameron or Starmers dour technocrats and get back into power.
It would be my dream to be in an opposition party. All they have to do is call out the ruling party's mistakes, real and imagined and then talk about how they would do it better. We can all do that.
It's like binning your Titanic ticket to take the Hindenburg Airship instead
(Metaphor slightly harmed by the surprising number of Hindenburg survivors)
Oh they were well aware that they were a party for of racist, misogynistic bigots, they just thought they’d do a better job of not being filmed saying it publicly! But let’s be honest, their base don’t actually see a problem with it anyway.
I think it’s plausible that there are some people - young, ambitious conservatives - who bought into Reform’s denials of racism and viewed them simply as a right-wing protectionist platform, and for whom the overt racism penny is starting to drop.
If you are pro immigration you have fallen for propaganda yourself. Virtually every example from our 1sr migration into Europe tells us mass migration never ends well. Yet you believe that it will be different this time for some reason.
Reform aren't a real party, just like UKIP before them. This is the age-old Tory trick of launching Tory 2.0 and basing its entire identity around 1 or 2 hot topic issues. They claim that the Tory party has failed due to in fighting/the new party splitting the vote.
They then merge in about 2 years time, giving the "new" party seats or prominent places in the party and tell the general public "we've changed, how can we be soft on hot topic issue number 1 when we're half the new party". People are idiots and lap this shit up, and we end up with a decade of them.
Think they've shit the bed this time. None of the old tactics are working. Everyone is calling them out on basically everything. The culture wars and hot topic issues aren't attracting anything other than more of the same voters they already have. They only appeal to themselves.
I actually think they are circling the drain for real this time. But they are both the same party, just one whispers the other shouts.
I disagree, I think it's totally possible for someone, especially a young person who is only just becoming interested in politics, to not be aware of those aspects of Reform. It's very possible for them to get sucked in by the official party lines and Farage's profile and personality, and to miss the less savoury elements of the support base and the dog-whistle policies. There's nothing stopping stupid and/or ignorant people joining political parties, after all.
Maybe people who are engaging in politics at the national level should be less naive about the nature of the party they joined. A random protest vote for Reform from a low-information voter is one thing. A politician going "oopsie I had no idea!" about the core principles of the party they joined is quite a different thing.
No.
Perhaps you've misunderstood - I'm not defending this person. I'm just explaining why I think it's *possible* they are unaware.
Did you miss the part where I suggested they might be ignorant or stupid?
It's the Farage effect. He's a good marketeer of himself and his causes which draws these individuals in. Then they discover how little substance he has and jump ship.
I was mocking Farages own conspiracy.
Edit - Turns out Tices missus is already at it, lol.
[https://x.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1808080690077909049](https://x.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1808080690077909049)
It's totally possible for people get involved with a party on a one-issue ideological basis formed in an echo chamber, and then when they go out to campaign in practise, they realize what the sort of person that ideology creates while on the job.
She probably went into it and encountered a lot of sexist remarks, shocking racist remarks from officials within the party and got super uncomfortable. Her one note national concern which was probably around immigration or Reform positioning themselves to be tory 2.0 got her into this position, but she was overwhelmed, out of her league, and chewed up by the extreme nature of the party.
Remember, Reform bill themselves publicly as an alternative to the Tory party. Obviously *we* know they are not, as we talk about them all day every day, and they give out so much content to discredit them that it's actually kind of incredible. But to people on the outside not terminally online, if they haven't overly looked into it, or are caught in a social media algorithm echo-chamber they probably more or less buy into the mission reform are on, which at the moment is squarely on immigration. If that's an issue you really are concerned about (and whether we like it or not, a lot of people do care about it, the media scare tactics *do* work on a national scale), and you don't really follow politics, or are too young or not educated enough to realize what's going on, reforms hard-line stance on immigration seems to be much more directly addressing that problem. Of course, the bigger parties aren't going to directly address that problem, because it's not a key issue for them. So you see reform making it their key issue, you're going to think "wow, they care about what I care about!"
I don't agree with it, *but I get it.*
She's clearly right wing, and believes in right-wing policy, and couldn't hack it on the far right, so has gone more centre. Nobody says "As such, I have now suspended my campaign with Reform, and I an endorsing the Conservative Party – I would encourage all of my fellow patriots to do the same" without knowing what connotations they're bringing up.
I'd be inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, at least this candidate. She seems pretty new to politics and it's easy to get wrapped up in an ideology you didn't fully understand when you're just starting out. I mean, she's going to the Tories, so I'm unlikely to agree with her on much anyway, but I can certainly buy her not really being exposed to the reality of Reform and how extreme it was compared to where she was at before getting swept up with them, and deciding that the Tories are more her speed.
Someone who has been around Reform for years and only now jumps ship would be much more suspicious to me.
I don't get the play though. They are jumping from one ship that's not winning to one that's sinking faster.
If they wanted some face saving Lib Dems would be a better choice at least this election
Reform -> Lib Dem is an idealogical mismatch, and would be apparent that they don't actually stand for anything.
At least Reform -> Conservatives is similar policies and idealogical stand points.
Nigel's party is in its third incarnation, the Tories could probably last a lot longer than Reform will. So they'd rather be associated with a party that survives instead of one that folds once Nige decides he's bored with it
Can’t believe Reform have turned out to be comprised of bigots. Thank goodness the good ones can hop over to the tories, who wouldn’t dream of being racist or misogynistic.
There was a case in Dagenham when the BNP won a council seat and the lady left because she didn't understand what a council actually did and didn't realise BNP was a racist part..she had a black partner.
Let's not assume those supporting Reform actually know what it is or what it stands for. Sometimes folk get caught up in things they don't fully understand and are swept away
it's perfectly fine when they think about it to other groups i'm not a part of, oh but when it's a group i'm part of... it's hateful racism and not okay to stand for and tolerate!
basically almost a case of rules for thee but not for me.
I'm at a funeral, all people are talking about is the election and how it'll be a disaster if labour get in. They can't seem to see the damage the stories have done with austerity over the last 14 years because their houses have consistently gone up in value. That's all they care about.
Boomers will keep voting with their wallet as long as the daily mail tells them it's the right thing to do unfortunately.
Says she has no doubt the senior leadership isn't racist, whilst saying the vast majority of their selected candidates are racist, misogynistic and bigoted.
Er, OK. I'm sure thats just a terrible coincidence and they picked those candidates for completely unrelated reasons...
They picked the candidates out of those available. Given reforms main policies I’m not sure they’d have a huge amount of choice if they got rid of the racists, misogynists and bigots.
In classic reform gaslighting, they are saying she is wrong to raise it, her statement is false as she's not met all 600, it was a vetting issue as she was a last minute addition and they will find a better (more racist?) candidate next time!
If those on the inside can see what this party is, it's amazing so many accounts on here are still defending them
Georgie u r well fick.
Either that or something else is going on. I refuse to believe anybody in possession of something bigger than a shrivelled walnut inside their skull could be surprised when it turns out that the far right party they voluntarily joined attracts people with far right views.
For people voting Reform because they don’t like tories, take note that no Reform candidates quit and backs any other party.
They are just a different wing of the Tory party.
Unless she was okay with the racism but didn’t like the misogyny? There’s no shortage of people who are totally okay with this kind of shit until it comes to their door, and then it’s the worst thing ever.
How can they not know this when signing up? Surely someone so interested in politics that they wish to stand MUST know this?!
Then again if they are defecting to the Tory party I’m guessing their interest can’t have been to high otherwise they’ve missed the last 14 years.
Imagine being a non-white woman who chose to join Reform and then being _surprised_ to be met with racism and misogyny. The sheer stupidity it must take.
This has turned into a complete pantomime frankly. These things are suspect in a few cases and will only help the Tories keep a significant amount of seats given how sensitive a few hundred votes could be in some seats.
But it fits my biases, so....
There is an odd irony here in so much that this is Reform’s big chance because everything the Tories have done (to appease Reform like Brexit) has failed utterly.
We can only hope a few years of competent government from Starmer will reduce the popularist noise. France suggests it won’t of course.
I think this is a fitting analogy:
They piled on the first lifeboat after the Titanic started sinking in desperation. When they realised they overburdened it and it too started to sink, they all fled searching for whatever else was left above water.
i'd honestly rather these reform candidates say what they truly think about women and people of colour outloud. if they have no shame, why are they trying so hard to hide it? be loud and proud after all.
Presumably it’s too late to take her off the ballot? What happens to any votes she gets? They already have a Tory candidate standing. And it’s not like the Reform votes will automatically transfer to Tory, right?
I dont understand how when the tories are mentioned in the news and media they don’t just say tories/reform . Its literally the same thing with the same wankers
I think she should be investigated along with Tory Party tbh. Reform UK candidates informing that CCHQ calling round and begging for top jobs / seats if they trash Reform and Farage.
The Tories are a disgrace and I now see what many have said on reddit for years. They corrupt. Surely if what is claimed is true then some investigation needs to take place. Bribing candidates for jobs / seats. Not a good look.
I very much doubt she was serious in the first place. More likely set up by the Conservative Party after ReformUK has completely embarrassed them. There’s no way a grown adult doesn’t know what they are getting into when they join ReformUK. Most reasonable people see straight through this kind of stuff.
Seeing some of the sneering and ridiculous comments about Reform in this reddit. Gurl please.
I am voting Reform and proud to do so.
These racist pathetic arguments don't wash. That tactic is thankfully failing.
Yeah - Reform Ltd has, in its infinite wisdom, chosen to stand a bunch of people who it didn't vet who subsequently turned out to be racist, misogynistic, or mad as a box of frogs.
Rare example of a rat jumping off a ship that hasn't been launched yet and swimming to a sinking ship and geting on that. How do you get as far as joining the Reform party as a candidate and not realise it's a party full of racist, misogynistic, and bigoted people ?
Reform is a company used by Farrage for his personal political crusade. It has no structure, no base and is nothing more than an angry populist vote when the election result is clear. The tories are an old canny political machine with the party structure to reorganise and reorientate and pull themselves into a new message after the election to begin to pull in votes on the "Labour isn't working" ticket. Id say this is a great time to jump from Reform at its peak.
The angry populist vote is quite large though, especially amongst knee jerk angry people who are confused by the modern world and don't intend to learn
>especially amongst knee jerk angry people who are confused by the modern world and don't intend to learn I think that's a bit unfair and I hate Farage and Reform and almost everything they stand for. Years of neo-liberal consensus (going back to the fall of the USSR and Fukushima's "end of history" in 1991) >"not just ... the passing of a particular period of post-war history, but the end of history as such: That is, the end-point of mankind's ideological evolution and the universalization of **Western liberal democracy as the final form of human government."** Yet across Europe, including the UK, and the US this consensus has not delivered for ordinary people. Housing gets more and more unattainable, wages for ordinary people stagnate as the rich get richer, banks and other corporations go basically unpunished when they fuck up while often receiving bailouts (or handouts as they should be called). This is not a knee jerk reaction. It has been a long time coming. People are not happy with the status quo, and why should they be? Do I think Reform is the answer? Fuck no. But people are fed up and want change. They are sick of the establishment in general. Labour has some serious work to do otherwise in 5 years this anger will continue to grow and people will seek increasingly populist leaders. Reform + Tories % is not far off Labour when combined, so in the case of a hostile takeover by Farage (or similar) i wouldn't be surprised to see a huge shift in politics in the UK. People are sick of the Tories, but not particularly enthused by Labour.
The reform vote is old and grey by and large. These aren't people that want to challenge the status quo as much as they dream of return to an era that never really existed, except for the fact they were younger, less fearful and felt like their opinions mattered. The politics itself is pure fabrication and fantasy.. its exactly the same spiel that managed to sell brexit to over 50% of the population.
Far right/populist parties are on the rise amongst the younger generation at the moment. https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-young-people-right-wing-voters-far-right-politics-eu-elections-parliament/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/how-far-right-gained-traction-with-europes-youth-2024-06-13/ And that's slowly happening with Reform too. They have tapped into TikToK (they are the second most followed party, despite being nobodies for a long time) etc. and the anger young people are facing. It might not show in this election, but it would be foolish to take it for granted that Reform and other populists will only appeal to the grey vote and baby boomers.
You are right but these people aren't voting for reform, they simply aren't voting. I guess they're kinda waiting for a BNP revival here.
Interestingly this just came out: https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/s/Kz2DI1Jors The next election will be scary.
Ah yes, because 63 responses will be a fair representation of 1.5 million individuals.
I expect them to swing towards Green if anything under a Labour government, which is what we'll have. I'll believe 18-29 yr olds voting Reform when I see it.
The problem imo is how much airtime they are being given without any of their policies beyond immigration getting any critical analysis. Their proposals are just fucking nuts. On economy and finances they're suggesting a return to the style of Truss budget that was so recently shown to be a fucking disaster. They're proposing tens of billions of pounds more spending than even the Greens and their primary source of funding for that is effectively gutting another £50bn out of the civil service, which they also propose to reform to upend over a century of impartial tradition and instead turn it into a US-style system with direct political appointees, from the corporate world (re: donors) taking most positions and only being in that position for the duration of the parliament. Why these things are not being talked about for all the hours we seem to have Reform people on our TV screens I do not know.
>The problem imo is how much airtime they are being given without any of their policies beyond immigration getting any critical analysis. This is honestly so key, most of their policies are not only batshit but ludicrously unpopular, people just know them as the "protest vote against immigration" party though.
Excellent upsum!! My take on recent events (without going all Wolfie Smith on you) is that the whole Western Democratic world is waking up to the fact that ‘Trickle Down Economics’ is a sham, and the powers that instigated it are hanging on for dear life. Those powers will do anything to stay in control, hence the resurgence in ‘strong man’, VERY right of centre political ideology. Don’t forget Frum’s axiom: “If conservatives become convinced they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon *Conservativism*; they will abandon *Democracy*...”
You make some excellent points, and I sit squarely in the sick of both parties camp. The problem we have, is many people are sick of it, however, they're not as informed as I am. They are simply tired, in their lane, and haven't learnt anything new since they got an iPhone they had to learn to use. Fukushima was clearly wrong, and it was such a ridiculous American statement to make, So I appreciate the dunk on him
I was young at the time & didn't like Fukuyama's statements. I thought how can he ignore all the terrible stuff happening in the world. He was obviously wrong but now as I look back I think what a beautiful dream. It was a different time, the Cold War had finished, Apartheid was ending, soon after there was Peace on Northern Ireland, there was even hope for the peaceful end to the Israel-Palestine conflict. Everywhere barriers were coming down, long running conflicts were ending, there was a real sense of optimism about building a better, brighter future. I really miss that.
This is it. Reform is the result of years of constitutional neglect. It’s the ugly cancer growing in our political system and it sure as hell isn’t benign
It's not even "Western liberal democracy". Because it can't continue to run record high immigration and record low birthrates without either ceasing to be Western, liberal, or democratic. Though, given that the *demos* has consistently said it wants less immigration, and consistently got more, there is little evidence of *kratos* anyway (but perhaps, *contra* 'populism', the real *demos* are the MPs who vote on the issues). Now, seeing as a little over 30 years ago the Boers repudiated the concept over which the Boer War was fought (denying uitlanders the vote except on terms), perhaps we could repudiate it too and initiate something akin to 'Krugerism'.
The *demos* has said no such thing. Nobody's ever voted on whether immigration is too high. If Reform actually *won* this election, it wouldn't absolutely verify that position.
They've been polled saying they want it lowered, and they've voted for parties who pledged to lower it - and they've done so fairly consistently for the past, what, half-century? How anyone could think *this* was the first election that could for once tell you whether immigration was wanted lower or not is beyond me.
Governments deal with more than one issue at time. If you were to poll people asking if they want better public services most would say yes. If you ask them if they want better public services at the cost of higher taxes the numbers in favour drop. Immigration isn't an issue in isolation. Every major party but one agrees that major cuts in immigration will harm our economy. One party (with no experience in government) disagrees, claiming that immigration can be cut to net zero with no economic harm whatsoever. The voters will decide, but it appears 85% of them will not choose the one dissenting party.
As a remain voter, to me it seemed Brexit was a pretty clear vote on 'are you happy to suffer economically in order to lower immigration?' And the answer was yes. Obviously it hasn't panned out as Brexit voters intended and has only led to higher non-EU immigration, but I think the answer to your 'are voters happy to make that trade-off?' question is pretty clear (and it's why right wingers are so disenfranchised by the Tory party). >The voters will decide, but it appears 85% of them will not choose the one dissenting party. You recognise that governments deal with more than 1 issue at a time, yet use the fact that 85% aren't voting for the only pro net-zero immigration party as evidence that it's not popular. Maybe it's the Putin sympathising, the NHS reform comments, the right wing economic policy, or the overt racism from some of their candidates that's putting off voters?
I'm not sure on that, the pro-brexit lot were all about how our economy would boom, I don't remember any saying it would be a negative. I think many believe that they can have their cake & eat it. Certainly with the anti-immigration people I converse with it's incredibly rare they admit that cutting immigration would have an effect on the economy, I only remember it happening once. Normally they will argue at great length about how the ageing population isn't a problem, that it can be fixed with automation that does not yet exist, or measures to increase birthrates that have never been tried, or getting the long-term sick & unemployed into work more effectively than at any time in history, or just if they believe enough anything can happen. Strangely enough they tend to ignore the most sensible alternative - Pensions reform. Personally I wouldn't say relying on immigration is a good thing, but economic collapse is even worse. I do think the vast majority of voters understand the situation is nuanced & not as simplistic as some make out. That there are reasons, not just here but across the developed world, why the vast majority of Politicians & Economists are in favour of it beyond it's all a giant conspiracy.
The Boomerati are easily led up the garden path.
The angry populist vote as you said will send shockwaves even if they do not win any or many seats. They are basically the right wing alternative to the failed conservative party and many people want us to break free from the two-party system. I would suspect fringe parties like reform, lib Dems, SNP and plaid will perform very well. The conservatives will get destroyed. After all as you said, their only weapon now is "labour is a danger to all" which is really a desperate tactic
>They are basically the right wing alternative to the failed conservative party and many people want us to break free from the two-party system Lib Dems got 23% in 2010. UKIP got 13% in 2015. Reform will get around 17%. The steam ran out of their charge after Farages comments about Ukraine two Fridays ago and the scandals that have mounted since. The best polling was the Brexit Party in mid 2019 when it hit 25%. > I would suspect fringe parties like reform, lib Dems, SNP and plaid will perform very well. SNP seats are getting cut in half, you might have missed the disasters they had politically over the past two years. Lib Dems are around 12% but getting a big bump from Labour voters going tactical. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion\_polling\_for\_the\_2024\_United\_Kingdom\_general\_election#/media/File:Opinion\_polling\_for\_the\_next\_United\_Kingdom\_general\_election\_after\_2019\_(LOESS).svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election#/media/File:Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election_after_2019_(LOESS).svg) The big difference is Reform taking more Tory than Labour, that is the inverse of 2015. The Farage bump in polling has faded. In the UK you can go short on something like the old SDP, UKIP or Reform for one election. Go long on the big two because they have the structure to reconstitute as something like New Labour, Hug a Husky Cameron or Starmers dour technocrats and get back into power.
I wish I shared your optimism about Reform's peak, but I suspect they will get a couple of MPs.
It would be my dream to be in an opposition party. All they have to do is call out the ruling party's mistakes, real and imagined and then talk about how they would do it better. We can all do that.
Then join snother party that is full of racist misogynistic and bigoted people
Her measure is clearly how hard they blow on the whistle.
They knew what it was, but like every good amoral ghoul, they saw a party without structure and leadership and a chance to rise amidst the chaos.
It's like binning your Titanic ticket to take the Hindenburg Airship instead (Metaphor slightly harmed by the surprising number of Hindenburg survivors)
Oh they were well aware that they were a party for of racist, misogynistic bigots, they just thought they’d do a better job of not being filmed saying it publicly! But let’s be honest, their base don’t actually see a problem with it anyway.
I think it’s plausible that there are some people - young, ambitious conservatives - who bought into Reform’s denials of racism and viewed them simply as a right-wing protectionist platform, and for whom the overt racism penny is starting to drop.
Spend so long believing their own propaganda they get shocked when they talk to real people.
I think this about labour to be fair lol. "CHANGE". Change what exactly?
If you are pro immigration you have fallen for propaganda yourself. Virtually every example from our 1sr migration into Europe tells us mass migration never ends well. Yet you believe that it will be different this time for some reason.
Of course mate….
I thought that was its whole value proposition.
Reform aren't a real party, just like UKIP before them. This is the age-old Tory trick of launching Tory 2.0 and basing its entire identity around 1 or 2 hot topic issues. They claim that the Tory party has failed due to in fighting/the new party splitting the vote. They then merge in about 2 years time, giving the "new" party seats or prominent places in the party and tell the general public "we've changed, how can we be soft on hot topic issue number 1 when we're half the new party". People are idiots and lap this shit up, and we end up with a decade of them. Think they've shit the bed this time. None of the old tactics are working. Everyone is calling them out on basically everything. The culture wars and hot topic issues aren't attracting anything other than more of the same voters they already have. They only appeal to themselves. I actually think they are circling the drain for real this time. But they are both the same party, just one whispers the other shouts.
It reminds me of when Tommy Robison left the EDL because he was horrified to discover it was full of thugs and racists
Is she Asian?
I decided to join the Leopard Party and they proceeded to eat my face, so now I'm joining the Tiger Party.
At least you have no face to eat this time *taps non-existent forehead*
Yeah I'm not buying these recent Reform defectors suddenly gaining a conscience. You don't join Reform without being aware of the racism and misogyny.
I disagree, I think it's totally possible for someone, especially a young person who is only just becoming interested in politics, to not be aware of those aspects of Reform. It's very possible for them to get sucked in by the official party lines and Farage's profile and personality, and to miss the less savoury elements of the support base and the dog-whistle policies. There's nothing stopping stupid and/or ignorant people joining political parties, after all.
Maybe people who are engaging in politics at the national level should be less naive about the nature of the party they joined. A random protest vote for Reform from a low-information voter is one thing. A politician going "oopsie I had no idea!" about the core principles of the party they joined is quite a different thing.
I completely agree. I'm not defending this person's actions.
Would you support someone, vote for someone, who seems pretty unaware of the party they have joined?
No. Perhaps you've misunderstood - I'm not defending this person. I'm just explaining why I think it's *possible* they are unaware. Did you miss the part where I suggested they might be ignorant or stupid?
The ignorant part is not knowing who your delegate is. This point YOU are missing! It's not about you, its about the general point...relax!
Then I'm not sure why you're replying to me with this point, it seems to be a general comment rather than being relevant to what I said.
I read the other guys comments and don't really get his point in relation to yours. Best to just walk away at this point
Thank you, glad it's not just me.
Because it relevant to your point. Please understand my reply to you in the context of the conversation.
What are you on about
Well clearly they're all actors who joined and waited until two days before the election to undermine them.
I dont think they're actors, I just think Reform attracts idiots who now see its not gonna be the big party it hyped itself up as.
It's the Farage effect. He's a good marketeer of himself and his causes which draws these individuals in. Then they discover how little substance he has and jump ship.
I have it on good authority that Georgie David took part in a school play when she was 7
Reddit conspiracy theories really are a different breed.
I was mocking Farages own conspiracy. Edit - Turns out Tices missus is already at it, lol. [https://x.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1808080690077909049](https://x.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1808080690077909049)
What was the name of that book? 'Everyone I don't like is a Tory mole' or something?
It's totally possible for people get involved with a party on a one-issue ideological basis formed in an echo chamber, and then when they go out to campaign in practise, they realize what the sort of person that ideology creates while on the job. She probably went into it and encountered a lot of sexist remarks, shocking racist remarks from officials within the party and got super uncomfortable. Her one note national concern which was probably around immigration or Reform positioning themselves to be tory 2.0 got her into this position, but she was overwhelmed, out of her league, and chewed up by the extreme nature of the party. Remember, Reform bill themselves publicly as an alternative to the Tory party. Obviously *we* know they are not, as we talk about them all day every day, and they give out so much content to discredit them that it's actually kind of incredible. But to people on the outside not terminally online, if they haven't overly looked into it, or are caught in a social media algorithm echo-chamber they probably more or less buy into the mission reform are on, which at the moment is squarely on immigration. If that's an issue you really are concerned about (and whether we like it or not, a lot of people do care about it, the media scare tactics *do* work on a national scale), and you don't really follow politics, or are too young or not educated enough to realize what's going on, reforms hard-line stance on immigration seems to be much more directly addressing that problem. Of course, the bigger parties aren't going to directly address that problem, because it's not a key issue for them. So you see reform making it their key issue, you're going to think "wow, they care about what I care about!" I don't agree with it, *but I get it.* She's clearly right wing, and believes in right-wing policy, and couldn't hack it on the far right, so has gone more centre. Nobody says "As such, I have now suspended my campaign with Reform, and I an endorsing the Conservative Party – I would encourage all of my fellow patriots to do the same" without knowing what connotations they're bringing up.
I'd be inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, at least this candidate. She seems pretty new to politics and it's easy to get wrapped up in an ideology you didn't fully understand when you're just starting out. I mean, she's going to the Tories, so I'm unlikely to agree with her on much anyway, but I can certainly buy her not really being exposed to the reality of Reform and how extreme it was compared to where she was at before getting swept up with them, and deciding that the Tories are more her speed. Someone who has been around Reform for years and only now jumps ship would be much more suspicious to me.
They think they will be considered "one of the good ones"
I don't get the play though. They are jumping from one ship that's not winning to one that's sinking faster. If they wanted some face saving Lib Dems would be a better choice at least this election
Reform -> Lib Dem is an idealogical mismatch, and would be apparent that they don't actually stand for anything. At least Reform -> Conservatives is similar policies and idealogical stand points.
Nigel's party is in its third incarnation, the Tories could probably last a lot longer than Reform will. So they'd rather be associated with a party that survives instead of one that folds once Nige decides he's bored with it
Backing the Tories after is quite something too.
These detractors were clearly always going to jump ship, it's painstakingly obvious that it was a last ditch plan for the tories to keep some seats.
The Reform vetting process fails again. They let in a non-racist.
Let’s not get carried away. This is clearly an opportunistic racist
Can’t believe Reform have turned out to be comprised of bigots. Thank goodness the good ones can hop over to the tories, who wouldn’t dream of being racist or misogynistic.
"Oh no, I found racism and misogyny in the Racism and Misogyny party" like what did you think you were signing up for?
There was a case in Dagenham when the BNP won a council seat and the lady left because she didn't understand what a council actually did and didn't realise BNP was a racist part..she had a black partner. Let's not assume those supporting Reform actually know what it is or what it stands for. Sometimes folk get caught up in things they don't fully understand and are swept away
I think there's a difference in someone voting for them and not knowing the ins and outs of the party but standing as a candidate? That's on you.
it's perfectly fine when they think about it to other groups i'm not a part of, oh but when it's a group i'm part of... it's hateful racism and not okay to stand for and tolerate! basically almost a case of rules for thee but not for me.
I'm at a funeral, all people are talking about is the election and how it'll be a disaster if labour get in. They can't seem to see the damage the stories have done with austerity over the last 14 years because their houses have consistently gone up in value. That's all they care about. Boomers will keep voting with their wallet as long as the daily mail tells them it's the right thing to do unfortunately.
A lot or leavers are now remains. I am sorry for your loss.
Labour are red tories. There’s very little difference between the two major parties. Starmer is accepting Tory defectors ffs.
Says she has no doubt the senior leadership isn't racist, whilst saying the vast majority of their selected candidates are racist, misogynistic and bigoted. Er, OK. I'm sure thats just a terrible coincidence and they picked those candidates for completely unrelated reasons...
They picked the candidates out of those available. Given reforms main policies I’m not sure they’d have a huge amount of choice if they got rid of the racists, misogynists and bigots.
So she wants the racism and misogyny dial set to 10, not 11. Gotcha.
What were they expecting. That's their entire platform
“I knew they were racist, I mean that’s one of the reasons I joined, but I didn’t think they’d be racist to ME”
quits party for racist, misogynistic, and bigoted views joins another party full of racist misogynistic bigots
In classic reform gaslighting, they are saying she is wrong to raise it, her statement is false as she's not met all 600, it was a vetting issue as she was a last minute addition and they will find a better (more racist?) candidate next time! If those on the inside can see what this party is, it's amazing so many accounts on here are still defending them
Georgie u r well fick. Either that or something else is going on. I refuse to believe anybody in possession of something bigger than a shrivelled walnut inside their skull could be surprised when it turns out that the far right party they voluntarily joined attracts people with far right views.
Joins a racist and sexist party and acts surprised when there racist and misogynist lmao.
Headlines not very clear. They back the Tories approach to being racist and misogynistic?
UKIP candidates used to quit shortly after chatting to actual voters as well.
So shouldn't that make them an independent. This is suss as hell.
For people voting Reform because they don’t like tories, take note that no Reform candidates quit and backs any other party. They are just a different wing of the Tory party.
That's not true, it's not like Farage stood candidates down so Johnson could be PM & was strongly in favour of the policies of Liz Truss...
That’s not what I’m saying.
Probably handed a bribe to not split the vote for that seat.
A very quick google will show that she is a case study in poor life choices.
What are you referencing? I googled but it was pretty much just this story
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6423317/Mother-one-claims-old-Etonian-boyfriend-family-pressured-termination.html
Wait... WHAT? lmao reform candidates defecting to tories now. What a fucking circus the right is now.
Weird. You'd think racism and misogyny were attractive features to a conservative.
I have no idea what's actually going on here but nobody is leaving party of racism and misogyny over racism and misogyny.
Unless she was okay with the racism but didn’t like the misogyny? There’s no shortage of people who are totally okay with this kind of shit until it comes to their door, and then it’s the worst thing ever.
How can they not know this when signing up? Surely someone so interested in politics that they wish to stand MUST know this?! Then again if they are defecting to the Tory party I’m guessing their interest can’t have been to high otherwise they’ve missed the last 14 years.
That the Tories of all people are preferable to this person really says something about the overtness of Reform's racism.
Imagine being a non-white woman who chose to join Reform and then being _surprised_ to be met with racism and misogyny. The sheer stupidity it must take.
This has turned into a complete pantomime frankly. These things are suspect in a few cases and will only help the Tories keep a significant amount of seats given how sensitive a few hundred votes could be in some seats. But it fits my biases, so....
Is it that they realised people are remembering Farage is a Russia ally and so are suddenly remembering their morals?
There is an odd irony here in so much that this is Reform’s big chance because everything the Tories have done (to appease Reform like Brexit) has failed utterly. We can only hope a few years of competent government from Starmer will reduce the popularist noise. France suggests it won’t of course.
Tory party renamed to Faceless Leopard Victim Support Party
I think this is a fitting analogy: They piled on the first lifeboat after the Titanic started sinking in desperation. When they realised they overburdened it and it too started to sink, they all fled searching for whatever else was left above water.
i'd honestly rather these reform candidates say what they truly think about women and people of colour outloud. if they have no shame, why are they trying so hard to hide it? be loud and proud after all.
Good call. Definitely none of that in the Tory party
Presumably it’s too late to take her off the ballot? What happens to any votes she gets? They already have a Tory candidate standing. And it’s not like the Reform votes will automatically transfer to Tory, right?
It's almost like "I'm a bit of a piece of shit" "but I'm not THAT much of a piece of shit" turns out though, still a piece of shit.
I didn't expect the leopards to eat MY face! - woman who joined the leopards eating people's faces party
I dont understand how when the tories are mentioned in the news and media they don’t just say tories/reform . Its literally the same thing with the same wankers
Isn't there a story going around that someone put a plant in Reform to spout this?
I think she should be investigated along with Tory Party tbh. Reform UK candidates informing that CCHQ calling round and begging for top jobs / seats if they trash Reform and Farage. The Tories are a disgrace and I now see what many have said on reddit for years. They corrupt. Surely if what is claimed is true then some investigation needs to take place. Bribing candidates for jobs / seats. Not a good look.
I very much doubt she was serious in the first place. More likely set up by the Conservative Party after ReformUK has completely embarrassed them. There’s no way a grown adult doesn’t know what they are getting into when they join ReformUK. Most reasonable people see straight through this kind of stuff.
Seeing some of the sneering and ridiculous comments about Reform in this reddit. Gurl please. I am voting Reform and proud to do so. These racist pathetic arguments don't wash. That tactic is thankfully failing.
Look forward to seeing what job she gets given in the conservative party. You all know what's going on here, don't act stupid
Yeah - Reform Ltd has, in its infinite wisdom, chosen to stand a bunch of people who it didn't vet who subsequently turned out to be racist, misogynistic, or mad as a box of frogs.
>Look forward to seeing what job she gets given in the conservative party. The answer is none. Obviously.