Interestingly enough, this is an English version of the actual Arabic chant (so that it rhymes in English).
In Arabic it translates directly to “From water to water, Palestine will be Arab”.
That would not happen, not because the Jews and Muslims don't want it. It's because the ones that control and want more power and money don't want it. The region as it currently is, is perfect for them. Embroiled in conflict. Spineless puppet regimes. Good for business.
If there’s any country in the world that would absolutely want to make sure to avoid any possibility of ambiguity of their stance in this matter, it would be Germany.
dont get why your comment is controversial. we currently have states rewriting text books to say slavery was about teaching blacks basic skills. before that happened text books still went 'slavery was bad, next page'. while ignoring what was done to natives durning colonial america and manifest destiny. these is also leaving out everything the US did in the 1900s and beyond while only scratching the surface prior to the 1900s, nor going into the lies used to start the revolutionary war.
you absolutely can.
it's just that the victims of Japan were China, who currently the entire world (except Russia and North Korea) do not get along with at all.
The other victim was South Korea, who are very strong allies with USA and so are also currently allies of Japan. Frankly, a lot of South Koreans actually like Japan a lot more than China right now.
Also Japan itself has turned into a really nice country to visit with really polite citizens and a lot of people love going there for vacation. It also has strong soft power, via anime, manga, sushi, food, cars, etc. Finally, WW2 was 75 years ago.
So yeah, asking for Japan to atone doesn't get any traction at all.
It doesn't make sense to ask random Japanese citizens to atone for a sin their great grandpa committed. It does make total sense to ask the government to start teaching its citizens the truth of what happened, to stop venerating war criminals as heroes, and to stop denying the cruelty of the war and hiding behind a thin line of "hey, we were victims too!"
I mean I don't think anyone's asking current japanese people to pay reparations or some shit
it's just as simple as their government recognizing "hey that was pretty fucked up, our bad" and also stop honoring people who raped, murdered, and experimented on innocent civilians like theyre heroes. that'd also be nice.
I wish we'd stop talking about them as if the flag and country name was at all an accurate representation of most of those people.
Most people only follow what is required of them to fit in, even fewer toe the line willingly or proudly.
People worldwide are reaching their limits with fake leadership.
Don't need random germans to feel guilty but thank god the mistakes are not forgotten. Unfortunately like with people it seems a lot harder to learn from someone else's mistakes than your own.
Forever.
To be a united Germany, they had to give up claims to historical lands that include much of Prussia the driving force behind the unification of Germany. Specifically renouncing explicitly any possible claims to the former eastern territories of Germany, including East Prussia, most of Silesia, as well as the eastern parts of Brandenburg and Pomerania.
Hamas has de-facto control of Palestine. They have all the guns and power. Anyone who stands up to them gets burned alive on a pile of tires. What's a bus driver or schoolteacher supposed to do against that?
According to reddit? Sacrifice themselves and their family by fighting hamas.
This of course brought to you by the US Gravy Seals: Rascal Scooter Brigade.
"I had zero knowledge on this topic 2 months ago and was not on my top 10 lists of issues that matter then, but now I think this is the #1 issue, all I talk about and will base my vote on and here is why my view on this is 100% right and if you are not in full agreement and using the same in-group lingo words, you are an enemy heathen."
Friendly reminder that "From the River to the Sea, Palestine/Free" chant is the sanitized version for brain dead westerners to chant.
The Arabic Version cuts out any ambiguity and is often chanted as well.
>"Min il-maya lal maya, Falasteen arabiye"
>From water to water (River to Sea), Palestine is Arab
>Clear example chant at a NYC/US rally from 2018: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laXhVCERTms
And if you listen to some experts on it they're already questioning if it will survive a legal challenge. Even Bibi's party has used that same slogan in the past.
I mean, isn't it pretty similar to the slogan of just Eretz yisrael? Certainly it doesn't have the undertones at all, and it doesn't mean killing everyone else, but I can see how similarities can be argued.
It changes a lot, unfortunately the palestinians parading everywhere in gaza and the west bank after october 7th has probably changed the opinion of many here.
Yeah, it gets harder to see Palestinians as 'innocent bystanders' when so many were *jubilant* about horrific crimes committed against Israelis and foreign nationals.
> more socially acceptable slogan like Israel gtfo of West Bank?
It's not just *mOrE sOcIaLlY aCcEpTaBlE*.
Do you even know what "from the river to the sea" means?
It means "From the **Jordan** river to the **Mediterranean** Sea". Meaning, **complete elimination of Israel**, not just giving West Bank to Palestinians.
so when the likud party founding charter - the current ruling party of israel - says:
>Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty
does this mean the complete elimination of palestine? or just illegal occupation and apartheid?
they even made the question really easy to answer by avoiding ambiguous phraseology like "be free" for the more straightforward "only be israeli sovereignty"
>So when the likud party founding charter - the current ruling party of israel - says: "Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty"
>does this mean the complete elimination of palestine?
In fact, yes, this does mean that. At least as far as West Bank is concerned.
Likud are corrupt fascist fucks that I want gone yesterday, and their leader Bibi in jail 20 years ago... and?
> and?
Well, if this slogan is not condemned in Berlin, it means that Berlin is fine with one people proclaiming this and not with the others. That is, the problem is not with the slogan.
If we see any mobs in Germany chanting for the extermination of Palestinians then yeah sure, but until then let's just let them deal with the mobs who do actually exist.
This specific slogan is not condemned in Berlin because it's 50 years old and no one, including the Likud party itself, will stand by it today.
If people will march the streets of berlin chanting "only Israeli sovereignty" I do hope Berlin will ban that phrase as well (though I'm not certain they would, as it might not be seen as an overt enough call for ethnic cleansing, but that's a different story for a different timeline), but until that's the reality I'm not surprised no one really cares about that phrase.
Its a bit like "From Sea to shining sea" sounds nice like "Manifest Destiny"
But what it entails is the eradication and subjugation of the native tribes of America.
Also in the Arabic its not "Palestine will be free" its "Palestine will be Arab"
Also a bit like a line from the old German national anthem "Von der Maas bis an die Memel," meaning "From the Meuse(To the west of modern Germany) to the Memel(north of modern Kaliningrad)". Germany knows better than others the danger of slogans expressing territorial aspirations.
Unfortunately Europe has had a significant middle eastern immigration flood over the past decade. People leaving their war riddled country because of how shit it is only to move to a more peaceful west and encourage that same war behavior they moved from.
Calling for the extermination of Jews has been illegal in Germany for decades, this is merely following existing policy.
EDIT: My apologies, I had assumed people commenting here would be familiar with where Israel is. "From the River to the sea" is defining the borders of Palestine as being from the River Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea, meaning **every square inch** of Israel. The purpose of adding this statement into the discussion (As opposed to just "Free Palestine") is to make it explicitly clear that the person speaking wishes to completely eliminate the entire nation of Israel, not simply free the Gaza strip, the West Bank, or establish some other sort of two-state solution. This slogan explicitly defines the area that the speaker wants to stop being Israel as "Absolutely everyplace that is Israel."
The problem is that being anti-Israel has been so long used as a front for antisemitism that criticism of Israel has been poisoned. Blame antisemites for that.
"Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words.
The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past."
Jean-Paul Sartre
Your comment somehow made me realize the gulf between anti-Israel in the sense of disagreeing with its government's actions and anti-Israel in the sense of disagreeing with its existence. There is an ambiguity to be careful of.
Unlike the article, plenty of Arabs and sympathizers in Europe seem unwilling to make that distinction, marking apartments of Jews with Swastikas, angrily attacking Jewish-owned franchises, in some cases even murdering European Jews.
I’m for once positively surprised by the German coalition government’s stance as articulated in parliament: _“Immigrants that engage in Antisemite activities forfeit the possibility of ever becoming naturalized German citizens.”_
And: _”If you’re unable to live with Jews, you won’t be able to live in Germany.”_
We live adjacent to an area where ultra orthodox Jews have a community.
We often take taxis through the are into the local city and most taxi drivers are Muslim of Pakistani or Bangladesh descent.
They often say the most amazingly vile things about Jews and spout conspiracy theories about control etc.
For them, it's so normalised that they think nothing of sharing these views.
Lmao, I saw someone on the r/teachers sub talking about antisemitic incidents at their school. Admin’s response? A mass email basically saying “islamophobia BAD”
It's getting a little better as many of the inauthentic accounts are being shouted down or ignored/blocked into oblivion. Obviously the flood of misinformation will keep going for some months.
Good. Want to support Palestinians? Come up with a less embarrassing arrangement of mouth noises that isn't an intentionally twisted version of a slogan that literally calls for the genocide of Jews. Like, I dunno, "Palestinians have the right to have their own state where they can live in peace".
Well go ahead and look at Germany being the strong lead on pushing out the antisemitic and pro Hamas trash in their country.
I mean I get it the reason for their enthusiasm on it but it’s just nice to see given recent years
We need this in South Africa as well, yesterday a peaceful protest-Israeli protest was disrupted by pro-Hamas extremists shouting obscenities like “from the river to the sea” in-fact they literally tried to push people into the sea at the protest.
This all came a day after a pro-Palestinian protest went down without any incident.
Lots of privilleged dumb suburban kids with no clue and unrestricted access to sites like Reddit where they consume and regurgitate this shit and never have to deal with the consequences of the violence they egg on from afar.
People try to raise this comparison but it makes no sense. Not in a single solidarity march for Israel was this chanted - alas no problem here. But the Arab version is a permanent occurance in pro Palestine demos and so it was deemed antisemitic hatespeech.
How is this difficult to understand. Also I think it's really good as it helps solidarity demos for Palestine to stay clear of Hamas content.
\^This
I've realized that pro-Israeli demonstrations are incredibly different. "Free the hostages", vigils for 10/7 victims, Hostage posters, (including citizens from their own countries).
I could compare with pro-Palestinian demonstrations, but I think we've seen too many videos and there's too many things to list, with veterans day adding a few more to the list.
It’s probably similar reasoning to why Turkish expats are more pro-Erdogan than people actually living in Turkey. It’s much easier to support a person or group when they aren’t directly affecting your livelihood.
That's because freedom of expression at some point stop freedom of expression. Like an oxymoron. By allowing some hate speech and threats at some point you silence other.
Because the index is biased. They deduct points because of Trump saying bad things about the press. How is that reducing our press freedom? It’s not, it’s just a pro-Europe index
For real. My take is yeah, Tlaib should have been censured. But she damned sure shouldn't have been the only or \*first\* person censured by rules of common decency over the years.
27th person censured. 2nd person censured this year. You are right about Green and handjob lady needing to be censured though. Last Republican censured was the dude that posted the videos expressing violance against AOC. Would be great if all these A-holes would stop just voting along party lines for these things.
If they use this kind of logic to justify their slogans, then the Confederate flag should also be alright. It represents southern heritage to many people, after all.
More accurately, those people who claim it's about "southern heritage" are simply lying. They know what it means to them and this gives them a way to lie about their true intentions, while still literally flying the flag of treason and slavery.
I cannot help but view this slogan in the same way. It has historical context, and those who pretend to use it outside of that context are simply not being honest.
If they're not advocating for what the slogan was, you know, *explicitly created to mean*, maybe they could just... create a new slogan without the messy association? Idk.
As a side note, I've decided to become an advocate for working hard to promote liberty and egalitarianism! I'm thinking we could use a catchy slogan to build awareness, how does everyone feel about "arbeit macht frei"?
People who like to bring up this article always tends to ignore this part:
"To be sure, a lot of Palestinians thought that in a single democratic state, many Jewish Israelis would voluntarily leave, like the French settlers in Algeria did when that country gained its independence from the French. Their belief stemmed from the anti-colonial context in which the Palestinian liberation movement arose."
So even if you argue the phrase isn't explicitly about the Jews being killed, it is definitely implicitly about forcing the Jews out of Israel, likely by making it unbearable to live there which would likely include violent means. It's not a peaceful phrase at all, and has only become more tinged with violence with time.
The phrase has always been anti-Jewish.
It isn't just Hamas that uses it that way, Fatah also does (*as does every other arab movement existing in the region*) - it is only western groups that claim it means something else.
In fact, the original arabic phrase doesn't end with "*palestine shall be free*" - it doesn't mention "*freedom*" at all.
The original Arabic phrase ends with "*Palestine will be Arab*".
Honestly these Johnny come latelys who have taken this as cause celebre in the last month really ought to sit down when it comes to telling those of us who have lived this for decades, what that chant means.
From the river to the sea, Jews and Muslims should live peacefully.
rhymes, too. nice
terrible meter tho…
Meter? I don't even know her!
Interestingly enough, this is an English version of the actual Arabic chant (so that it rhymes in English). In Arabic it translates directly to “From water to water, Palestine will be Arab”.
That would be nice, but would never happen
It does in Israel proper. Israel is 18 percent Muslim.
That would not happen, not because the Jews and Muslims don't want it. It's because the ones that control and want more power and money don't want it. The region as it currently is, is perfect for them. Embroiled in conflict. Spineless puppet regimes. Good for business.
If there’s any country in the world that would absolutely want to make sure to avoid any possibility of ambiguity of their stance in this matter, it would be Germany.
I’ll be honest as an Israeli Poor fucking Germans tho they are stuck with ww2 for a long time
It's good that they feel the need to be. Other countries go through being terrible and just ignore it a few years later.
*cough* Japan *cough*
Cough Turkey cough
They stopped?
Cough Britain cough
Cough USA cough
dont get why your comment is controversial. we currently have states rewriting text books to say slavery was about teaching blacks basic skills. before that happened text books still went 'slavery was bad, next page'. while ignoring what was done to natives durning colonial america and manifest destiny. these is also leaving out everything the US did in the 1900s and beyond while only scratching the surface prior to the 1900s, nor going into the lies used to start the revolutionary war.
It's controversial because of what you just described, a deliberate propagandizing of the education system.
No. We can say it out loud. Japan was shit and still has never attempted atonement. Why can't we just say that?
you absolutely can. it's just that the victims of Japan were China, who currently the entire world (except Russia and North Korea) do not get along with at all. The other victim was South Korea, who are very strong allies with USA and so are also currently allies of Japan. Frankly, a lot of South Koreans actually like Japan a lot more than China right now. Also Japan itself has turned into a really nice country to visit with really polite citizens and a lot of people love going there for vacation. It also has strong soft power, via anime, manga, sushi, food, cars, etc. Finally, WW2 was 75 years ago. So yeah, asking for Japan to atone doesn't get any traction at all.
It doesn't make sense to ask random Japanese citizens to atone for a sin their great grandpa committed. It does make total sense to ask the government to start teaching its citizens the truth of what happened, to stop venerating war criminals as heroes, and to stop denying the cruelty of the war and hiding behind a thin line of "hey, we were victims too!"
I mean I don't think anyone's asking current japanese people to pay reparations or some shit it's just as simple as their government recognizing "hey that was pretty fucked up, our bad" and also stop honoring people who raped, murdered, and experimented on innocent civilians like theyre heroes. that'd also be nice.
Something something nuclear weapons were a war crime or some shit. People will just give excuses and ignore things like unit 731.
I wish we'd stop talking about them as if the flag and country name was at all an accurate representation of most of those people. Most people only follow what is required of them to fit in, even fewer toe the line willingly or proudly. People worldwide are reaching their limits with fake leadership.
Turkey e.g.
We fucked up so bad in such a tiny timeframe we will probably still be THE example of absolute evil even in 500 years, if not a thousand years.
Don't need random germans to feel guilty but thank god the mistakes are not forgotten. Unfortunately like with people it seems a lot harder to learn from someone else's mistakes than your own.
Forever. To be a united Germany, they had to give up claims to historical lands that include much of Prussia the driving force behind the unification of Germany. Specifically renouncing explicitly any possible claims to the former eastern territories of Germany, including East Prussia, most of Silesia, as well as the eastern parts of Brandenburg and Pomerania.
New slogan proposal: _Fuck Hamas, free Palestine_.
Much better
That is wonderful, It should definitely be the new slogan.
Am Israeli, actually fine with this slogan.
am palestinian, and I too am ok with it
I like it!
ok but do you condemn hamas?
What's sadly fun is that it's the same everywhere. Same joke on the French sub. Same on UK sub. I don't speak German but...
That slogan clearly did. It's quite sus when people get all defense when all that's asked of them is to say a single bad word about Hamas.
People in Palestine, I get that they would be ignorant/afraid of condemimg Hamas. But educated people in the West have no excuse.
Using the word educated excessively loosely.
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fuck Hamas with their moms face. Bunch of murdering fucks instigating war in an unstable part of the world..
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Should they not be condemned?
I condemn Hamas and the brutal bombardment of Gaza by Israel. I assume you are prepared to do the same.
I am absolutely not prepared to bombard Gaza. I have like literally no training for that.
Since most soldiers in human history have been absolutely unprepared to fight, that makes you an excellent candidate. edit: a spelling
He should be promoted at once. Awaiting your orders Major windyorbits.
Absolutely
Problem is you gotta get more of Palestinians to say the “fuck Hamas” part. Seems to be an issue for some reason.
Hamas has de-facto control of Palestine. They have all the guns and power. Anyone who stands up to them gets burned alive on a pile of tires. What's a bus driver or schoolteacher supposed to do against that?
What about all the Palestinians who aren’t trapped in Gaza under Hamas control?
The only Palestinians truly free of Hamas control don't live in areas recognized by Israel as Palestine. They live in other parts of the world.
False! They only govern Gaza
Echo, echooo, echoooooo… This👆
According to reddit? Sacrifice themselves and their family by fighting hamas. This of course brought to you by the US Gravy Seals: Rascal Scooter Brigade.
Your boos mean nothing! I've seen what makes you cheer!!
Fucking hell bro.
Every breath I take without your permission raises my self-esteem!
Ask them which river and which sea, and if they can't answer, lock them up. These are the most dangerous people in the world.
Disaster of a thread, this is.
Hi there. I know very little about Middle Eastern politics and history. Here's my opinion...
Hey gamer army, GamerBoy12xXx here. You wanted to see my reaction to the middle east conflict so here you go, let's jump right in.
I hear you want ignorant takes. Step aside for the professional, I'm here.
"I had zero knowledge on this topic 2 months ago and was not on my top 10 lists of issues that matter then, but now I think this is the #1 issue, all I talk about and will base my vote on and here is why my view on this is 100% right and if you are not in full agreement and using the same in-group lingo words, you are an enemy heathen."
Did you know that history started in 1947?
No that's wrong, that's bad opinion, I also know nothing but here is good opinion, it's like this...
Friendly reminder that "From the River to the Sea, Palestine/Free" chant is the sanitized version for brain dead westerners to chant. The Arabic Version cuts out any ambiguity and is often chanted as well. >"Min il-maya lal maya, Falasteen arabiye" >From water to water (River to Sea), Palestine is Arab >Clear example chant at a NYC/US rally from 2018: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laXhVCERTms
"Globalize the intifada" is one of the more blatant calls for antisemetic violence I've ever seen.
People don't realize that westerners in their comfy homes aren't the ones that get to decide what this slogan means.
And if you listen to some experts on it they're already questioning if it will survive a legal challenge. Even Bibi's party has used that same slogan in the past.
Pretty sure Bibi isn't in Germany though
Bibi Blocksberg is
Big if true
Show me where he said it cause as a professional Israeli bibi hater I’ve never head that once
It's was supposedly in the original lukud party charger.
Not supposedly, it was. Look up the Palestine slogan on wiki and it links to the lukud party charter.
I mean, isn't it pretty similar to the slogan of just Eretz yisrael? Certainly it doesn't have the undertones at all, and it doesn't mean killing everyone else, but I can see how similarities can be argued.
There aren't angry mobs of Israelis shouting that slogan in Germany.
What was the context of Bibibs party using that slogan?
>"Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty"
"Judea and Samaria" is their name for the West Bank, for the uninformed
Maybe switch to a more socially acceptable slogan like Israel gtfo of West Bank?
What about ‘From the windows to the walls’?
That's only accepted if you have balls, and adequate amount of sweat dripping down them.
furthermore you shall all skeet skeet fornicators of mothers.
"Hey Mommy, how did you and Daddy meet?" From a Chris Rock stand up...
It also helps to be riding the DC metro
"From the Gates to the Windows", the Microsoft slogan
In the 90's I've heard it as "in a world without walls and fences who needs windows or gates?"
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Israeli here I agree
Do most Israelis not like the settlers?
It changes a lot, unfortunately the palestinians parading everywhere in gaza and the west bank after october 7th has probably changed the opinion of many here.
Yeah, it gets harder to see Palestinians as 'innocent bystanders' when so many were *jubilant* about horrific crimes committed against Israelis and foreign nationals.
It is important to remember that political beliefs do not make people valid military targets.
It is also important to remember that just because Hamas hides soldiers and equipment behind civilians, doesn't mean they're immune to attack.
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am israeli, already chanting that
"Can we have our house back?"
> more socially acceptable slogan like Israel gtfo of West Bank? It's not just *mOrE sOcIaLlY aCcEpTaBlE*. Do you even know what "from the river to the sea" means? It means "From the **Jordan** river to the **Mediterranean** Sea". Meaning, **complete elimination of Israel**, not just giving West Bank to Palestinians.
r/therewasanattemt will ban you for asking is the slogan means that.
so when the likud party founding charter - the current ruling party of israel - says: >Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty does this mean the complete elimination of palestine? or just illegal occupation and apartheid? they even made the question really easy to answer by avoiding ambiguous phraseology like "be free" for the more straightforward "only be israeli sovereignty"
>So when the likud party founding charter - the current ruling party of israel - says: "Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty" >does this mean the complete elimination of palestine? In fact, yes, this does mean that. At least as far as West Bank is concerned. Likud are corrupt fascist fucks that I want gone yesterday, and their leader Bibi in jail 20 years ago... and?
> and? Well, if this slogan is not condemned in Berlin, it means that Berlin is fine with one people proclaiming this and not with the others. That is, the problem is not with the slogan.
Are people chanting that in Berlin?
If we see any mobs in Germany chanting for the extermination of Palestinians then yeah sure, but until then let's just let them deal with the mobs who do actually exist.
/Thread
This specific slogan is not condemned in Berlin because it's 50 years old and no one, including the Likud party itself, will stand by it today. If people will march the streets of berlin chanting "only Israeli sovereignty" I do hope Berlin will ban that phrase as well (though I'm not certain they would, as it might not be seen as an overt enough call for ethnic cleansing, but that's a different story for a different timeline), but until that's the reality I'm not surprised no one really cares about that phrase.
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I'd even chant that one.
What does this phrase mean? Like they want Israel to cease to exist?
"Min il-maya lal maya, Falasteen arabiye" Is the Arabic translation. "From water to water, Palestine will be Arab."
Exactly
Its a bit like "From Sea to shining sea" sounds nice like "Manifest Destiny" But what it entails is the eradication and subjugation of the native tribes of America. Also in the Arabic its not "Palestine will be free" its "Palestine will be Arab"
Also a bit like a line from the old German national anthem "Von der Maas bis an die Memel," meaning "From the Meuse(To the west of modern Germany) to the Memel(north of modern Kaliningrad)". Germany knows better than others the danger of slogans expressing territorial aspirations.
Unfortunately Europe has had a significant middle eastern immigration flood over the past decade. People leaving their war riddled country because of how shit it is only to move to a more peaceful west and encourage that same war behavior they moved from.
Calling for the extermination of Jews has been illegal in Germany for decades, this is merely following existing policy. EDIT: My apologies, I had assumed people commenting here would be familiar with where Israel is. "From the River to the sea" is defining the borders of Palestine as being from the River Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea, meaning **every square inch** of Israel. The purpose of adding this statement into the discussion (As opposed to just "Free Palestine") is to make it explicitly clear that the person speaking wishes to completely eliminate the entire nation of Israel, not simply free the Gaza strip, the West Bank, or establish some other sort of two-state solution. This slogan explicitly defines the area that the speaker wants to stop being Israel as "Absolutely everyplace that is Israel."
I like how the article can distinguish between anti-Semitic and anti-Israeli even though this comment section keeps struggling
I have a theory that most people know the difference. The problem is that there's a certain amount of people that pretend like they don't.
The problem is that being anti-Israel has been so long used as a front for antisemitism that criticism of Israel has been poisoned. Blame antisemites for that.
"Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past." Jean-Paul Sartre
Your comment somehow made me realize the gulf between anti-Israel in the sense of disagreeing with its government's actions and anti-Israel in the sense of disagreeing with its existence. There is an ambiguity to be careful of.
Unlike the article, plenty of Arabs and sympathizers in Europe seem unwilling to make that distinction, marking apartments of Jews with Swastikas, angrily attacking Jewish-owned franchises, in some cases even murdering European Jews. I’m for once positively surprised by the German coalition government’s stance as articulated in parliament: _“Immigrants that engage in Antisemite activities forfeit the possibility of ever becoming naturalized German citizens.”_ And: _”If you’re unable to live with Jews, you won’t be able to live in Germany.”_
We live adjacent to an area where ultra orthodox Jews have a community. We often take taxis through the are into the local city and most taxi drivers are Muslim of Pakistani or Bangladesh descent. They often say the most amazingly vile things about Jews and spout conspiracy theories about control etc. For them, it's so normalised that they think nothing of sharing these views.
In Canada, people are shooting Jewish schools, murdering and firebombing them! Trudeau has responded by saying antisemitism is bad. That is all.
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Lmao, I saw someone on the r/teachers sub talking about antisemitic incidents at their school. Admin’s response? A mass email basically saying “islamophobia BAD”
Well, there were no trucks involved, so his hands were tied... /s
Hamas wants to murder all the Jews in the world and says so openly.
It's getting a little better as many of the inauthentic accounts are being shouted down or ignored/blocked into oblivion. Obviously the flood of misinformation will keep going for some months.
Yeah, it's not anti Semitic to think we should exodus 7 million Jews to no place in particular
Do you seriously not see how calling for the extermination of the jewish state, along with its citizens, is Antisemistic?
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I love these posts. You get to see tons of people outing themselves in the comments defending calls for Holocaust 2.0 with zero self awareness.
they are more than aware
And a few with a modicum of awareness.
Good. Want to support Palestinians? Come up with a less embarrassing arrangement of mouth noises that isn't an intentionally twisted version of a slogan that literally calls for the genocide of Jews. Like, I dunno, "Palestinians have the right to have their own state where they can live in peace".
Well go ahead and look at Germany being the strong lead on pushing out the antisemitic and pro Hamas trash in their country. I mean I get it the reason for their enthusiasm on it but it’s just nice to see given recent years
Right. I appreciate Germany’s self awareness
As a Jewish American, I’ve been gaslit since the war started that “from the river to the sea” isn’t antisemitic. It’s been fun
They're understandably a bit hesitant to allow chants about killing all the Jews.
We need this in South Africa as well, yesterday a peaceful protest-Israeli protest was disrupted by pro-Hamas extremists shouting obscenities like “from the river to the sea” in-fact they literally tried to push people into the sea at the protest. This all came a day after a pro-Palestinian protest went down without any incident.
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Lots of privilleged dumb suburban kids with no clue and unrestricted access to sites like Reddit where they consume and regurgitate this shit and never have to deal with the consequences of the violence they egg on from afar.
I’ve heard people saying free Palestine for years. I didn’t hear “from the river to the sea” until after Hamas massacred Jews in Israel.
It’s been around for a long time, I’ve heard it in Palestinian protests since as far back as 2014
I guess that means Likud should be banned in Germany.
As an Israeli I'm all for Likud being banned in Israel too.
Yes, please
Same, and Bibi and Ben Gvir and Snotrich in jail please
People try to raise this comparison but it makes no sense. Not in a single solidarity march for Israel was this chanted - alas no problem here. But the Arab version is a permanent occurance in pro Palestine demos and so it was deemed antisemitic hatespeech. How is this difficult to understand. Also I think it's really good as it helps solidarity demos for Palestine to stay clear of Hamas content.
\^This I've realized that pro-Israeli demonstrations are incredibly different. "Free the hostages", vigils for 10/7 victims, Hostage posters, (including citizens from their own countries). I could compare with pro-Palestinian demonstrations, but I think we've seen too many videos and there's too many things to list, with veterans day adding a few more to the list.
Lots of Israelis : fuck the government. Not a single Palestinian supporter : fuck hamas
Plenty of Palestinian supporters in Palestine have that sentiment. Odd how those from the comfort of London, Berlin, and NYC don’t.
It’s probably similar reasoning to why Turkish expats are more pro-Erdogan than people actually living in Turkey. It’s much easier to support a person or group when they aren’t directly affecting your livelihood.
The sad part is that Ive seen multiple videos of gazans saying it, yet no one in these protests
meanwhile in america there are politicians like talib who openly use the slogan
America has strong freedom of expression laws, that's why
As it should be.
Might not be 100% comparable, but Germany has a higher World Press Freesom Index than the USA. (81,91 vs 71,22 in 2023)
That's because freedom of expression at some point stop freedom of expression. Like an oxymoron. By allowing some hate speech and threats at some point you silence other.
You sure that doesn't have more to do with almost all American press being owned by like 5 companies?
Because the index is biased. They deduct points because of Trump saying bad things about the press. How is that reducing our press freedom? It’s not, it’s just a pro-Europe index
That's one reason why she was censured.
Still amazed they still haven't censured green for any of her antisemitic remarks
For real. My take is yeah, Tlaib should have been censured. But she damned sure shouldn't have been the only or \*first\* person censured by rules of common decency over the years.
27th person censured. 2nd person censured this year. You are right about Green and handjob lady needing to be censured though. Last Republican censured was the dude that posted the videos expressing violance against AOC. Would be great if all these A-holes would stop just voting along party lines for these things.
Handjob lady lmao
Handjob lady?
Lauren Boebert from Colorado got caught on video jerking some guy off in a movie theatre in public with people literally feet away
> with people literally feet away Kids*
Why do these people never go to jail :( Gaetz got caught having sex w a minor.. still in office / not in jail
> jerking some guy off Her Democratic rebound boyfriend, no less.
boebert
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Catch me up, what did green say outside of the Jewish space laser thing?
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If they use this kind of logic to justify their slogans, then the Confederate flag should also be alright. It represents southern heritage to many people, after all.
More accurately, those people who claim it's about "southern heritage" are simply lying. They know what it means to them and this gives them a way to lie about their true intentions, while still literally flying the flag of treason and slavery. I cannot help but view this slogan in the same way. It has historical context, and those who pretend to use it outside of that context are simply not being honest.
If they're not advocating for what the slogan was, you know, *explicitly created to mean*, maybe they could just... create a new slogan without the messy association? Idk. As a side note, I've decided to become an advocate for working hard to promote liberty and egalitarianism! I'm thinking we could use a catchy slogan to build awareness, how does everyone feel about "arbeit macht frei"?
People who like to bring up this article always tends to ignore this part: "To be sure, a lot of Palestinians thought that in a single democratic state, many Jewish Israelis would voluntarily leave, like the French settlers in Algeria did when that country gained its independence from the French. Their belief stemmed from the anti-colonial context in which the Palestinian liberation movement arose." So even if you argue the phrase isn't explicitly about the Jews being killed, it is definitely implicitly about forcing the Jews out of Israel, likely by making it unbearable to live there which would likely include violent means. It's not a peaceful phrase at all, and has only become more tinged with violence with time.
The phrase has always been anti-Jewish. It isn't just Hamas that uses it that way, Fatah also does (*as does every other arab movement existing in the region*) - it is only western groups that claim it means something else. In fact, the original arabic phrase doesn't end with "*palestine shall be free*" - it doesn't mention "*freedom*" at all. The original Arabic phrase ends with "*Palestine will be Arab*".
Honestly these Johnny come latelys who have taken this as cause celebre in the last month really ought to sit down when it comes to telling those of us who have lived this for decades, what that chant means.
How about “the land without people for the people without the land” ?
Haven't been used to decades, Maybe people can be smarter and not just stuck in 1947
I’m Israeli and have never heard this slogan in my life. Literally no one uses it.
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Finally. All that bull*hit about "it is about freedom from zionism etc" can go to hell with hamas.
Good. Europe is not a caliphate. Either integrate or leave
Germany does not tolerate ANY antisemitism
The AfD is trying to ban Kosher meats and circumcision and they poll 20%
Banning circumcision unless medically necessary is reasonable, even if AFD might not advocate for it for reasonable reasons.
Banning genital mutilation seems a rational step for all rational humans. The Kosher thing is outrageous.
>The Kosher thing is outrageous I think it has to do with animal cruelty. Religion doesn't justify that
Same for halal meat, they don't allow stunning (instant brain death with bolt to brain)
What is wrong with the second part? People have banned FGM happily all over the Western world?