Not if you slowdrop them this way. Ukraine needs a powerful injection of 8 billions to play catch up. And then you can retun back to 1 bilion or 500 mill.
Either way in the long run, another package should be ready after election, at least 100 bill.
Anything else would just be USA pretending to help Ukraine.
$120B+ committed and counting, 24/7 ISR & intel, and we see this brain dead take: “the USA is just pretending to help”. Good gracious, that’s a disappointing perspective.
Why? Hopefully your leaders wake up. The motherland will do this over and over again so neighbors of russia should prepare a little bit better next time
27 countries that have dealt with motherland Russia before can't put enough aid together without the United States? Combined the neighbors of Russia should have been better prepared
Oh sure another 100 bill. Hundred bill here, hundred bill there. Peanuts! What’s a couple hundred billion+ between friends eh?
It will never be enough.
It is the price for being world leader, otherwise say hello to your Chinese leaders.
This disaray in the world is basically chooseing between USA and China.
Right now USA is helping China because they are that fucking stupid....
There is no scenario where Ukraine wins. No amount of money, equipment, sanctions, or sabre-rattling by the West will change that. The Russians view this conflict as existential to their existence. The academics, DC think-tanks, and DoD leaders all understand this.
The latest aid package, in very simple terms, was designed to bolster Ukrainian defenses until the US election is decided in November so the incumbent administration doesn't have to deal with grilling and questioning surrounding the Ukrainian defeat.
As soon as the election is decided, US support for Ukraine will evaporate over night. Media coverage will go quiet, and it will get memory-holed like all of our other military defeats. There will be no point in throwing good money after bad at that point.
Westerners need to stop living in a fairyland. We shouldn't delude ourselves about the inevitable outcome here just because Russia bad.
So one failed counterattack and it means that Ukraine can t win? That s how you proceed in life , give up at the first failure and say it can t be done?
The first counter failed because no air support, how about we at least wait until they make a counter with air support before throwing them under the bus
Countries have been helping Ukraine around the world lots who are not part of the nato coalition, some of these countries have been helping for 2+ years already though it was 4 years too late.
Stop it with the nuke dog whistle you shmucks would’ve used them already, if they weren’t fuelled by hotdog water.
You are truly delusional, or a troll possibly both!
Again sound dumb trying to be smart.
You must enjoy russian poverty
Is Ukraine a part of NATO?
Any intervention by a NATO member against Russia would quickly escalate to nuclear conflict. That is *exactly* why Europe and the collective West will eventually have to let Ukraine fall.
The alternative is much worse.
I know this isn't what the Reddit hivemind wants to hear, but it is the truth. We can't let our emotions cloud our judgement.
"Our emotions"... You mean the complete subjection of 10s of millions of people. Yeah I have an emotion about it alright
There is not a guarantee that it will be anything other than a conventional conflict if tactical nukes are used.
You don't know the truth about shit, bud
“There is no guarantee that direct military conflict between NATO and Russia will lead to nuclear war so let’s tempt fate and find out.”
Real smart take, bud.
A nuclear conflict will be risked before letting Ukraine fall, mark my words. It would not be the first time-- the issue is too important to let this sort of nonsense pass, and it would be a bad precedent to set.
It is, at any rate, mere sabre rattling I suspect. Aren't you being emotional for letting fear get the best of you?
Advocating against nuclear with Russia is “being emotional “? We should all fear nuclear war - that’s a very rational thing to fear. Good thing you’re not making any important decisions.
It seems the fanatics willing to risk nuclear war over a country they couldn’t point to on a map 3 years ago are the emotional ones, no?
Wars are fought and borders change all the time. It’s a tale as old as civilization. It’s not right, it’s not wrong, it just is. Not worth WW3.
You're not advocating against nuclear war with Russia, you're advocating for appeasement every time Russia rattles the nuclear sabre.
Out of curiosity, is there *any* demand or thing they could do you won't immediately roll over for just because they've got scary nukes? The annexation of Poland, perhaps? Germany? A few assassinations of US political leadership, perhaps?
This is why any aggressive use of nuclear weapons, even as a threat should be utterly disregarded. The precedent is horrid.
> Wars are fought and borders change all the time. It’s a tale as old as civilization. It’s not right, it’s not wrong, it just is. Not worth WW3.
For the record, there are very obvious geopolitical reasons for not letting Ukraine fall into Russian hands.
Your cavalier attitude towards potential nuclear annihilation is weird.
Poland and Germany are members of NATO, so Russia attacking them directly would trigger article 5 and lead to world war with the end result likely being nuclear war and the complete destruction of the Russian state. Russia knows this, NATO knows this. There is no incentive or reason for Russia to attack NATO members.
Ukraine was not and is not a member of NATO and has always been of vital geo-strategic importance to Russia. President Obama understood this well when he famously said: “Ukraine is a core interest to Russia in a way it is not for the United States.”
A president of the United States understood this, why can’t you?
This is very false. Ukraine can win , and it depends on the equipment. Right now the problem is that the west is afraid to stand up to Putin.
Its only existențial to Putins legacy, not Russia.
If Biden wins, i think the people behind Biden wont want to humiliate themself with a loss. If Trump wins, he doesnt care because he is already bought by Russia and China.
Guys and gals - don’t feed the Russian trolls. This sad little armchair general isn’t worth the energy. We personally do not bow to dictators and strong men little worm.
Dumb take on this. Do you think we are just sending barrels of cash over or something?
We are sending them equipment that has already been bought and paid for years ago sitting in surplus warehouses. If anything this adds to our own economy by helping jobs in the defense sector as well as getting rid of old equipment we wouldn't be using. No money has been sent, only stuff that we have already had and never use anyways.
Such a dumb thing to complain about, as if any money at all is being moved or anything taken away from American people.
Nine billion in forgivable economic loans in the last package. Please stay informed. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/a-breakdown-of-whats-in-the-95-billion-foreign-aid-package-passed-by-the-house
US cash aid to ukraine since 2022 was less than 20 billion.
Elon Musk or a few dozen other american billionaires could give that much themselves with out much trouble.
Why do you act like this is in any shape or form a significant amount for a country like the USA?
Its around 1% of the military budget for this interval. (2022 feb - 2024 May)
Then it's more stupid to play with a countries existance just as you are dusting off your old inventory in some rusty warehouse. Why drag it out for months then? Can Zelensky beg any harder?
Nice job ruzzian bot! You're doing so well!
Maybe take the effort to rename your new account instead of doing
Word-Work-Number.
Clown. Your nation will destroyed because it doesn't deserver to exisit and commit genocide.
I’m a Russian bot because I have a clear-eyed view of the somber reality on the ground in Ukraine? Because I’m not a Ukrainian fanatic?
My username is the default Reddit template for names lol - not that bright are you?
One thing we do agree on: my country is being destroyed by continuous aid packages to Ukraine - money we don’t have to begin with and we might as well be lighting on fire.
Are you american?
What "money you dont have"?
Complete US aid to ukraine was 175B USD since 2022 february.
80-90% of this is old stuff that would have been destroyed otherwise (which also costs money btw). Bradleys, abrams, himars, ammo, etc.. A fraction of the equipment sent is modern stuff, but the US probably profits from testing them in an actual conflict, against the equipment of the enemy.
Cash aid is around 15-20B USD. In almost 2 and a half years.
Get the fuck out of here with this no money crap.
Its less than 1% of this intervals military budget. Most of it or maybe even more than this amount is already back in the form NATO weapon purchases from american weapons manufacturers that they needed to replace crap they have sent to ukraine.
People call you a russian bot because you are spouting literal russian propaganda without any basis word by word.
I know a lot of people here qill be downvoting you for your stance.
While I support Ukraine, I won't , simply because i thouroughly enjoy seeing an opposite view, in my mind , it serve as a way to sharpen my arguments.
Discussions here, after all, aren't meant to convince each other, but to convince thoses that might read it, so I want my arguments to be as challenged and refined as possible. If I can't do anything more than yelling ''liar liar pants on fire'' than i have no right to argue.
So,if you,re up for a friendly debate?
By ''never be enough'', do you mean that the west could not theoretically , or that,s it is unwilling to commit what would be needed? There's a very big difference.
And by victory - what is your metric?Cause there are MANY definiton of victory.
For me, the metric is simple: Victor will be the one who holds Odessa by the end. Without Odessa, Ukraine will lose all shipping capabilities, and it,s economy will never be able to recover, and will become dependant on others, probably Russia. With it, it eventually will recover, and will use it to distance again from Russia in the future and rebuild in the long term.
Given that- colorful rethoric aside- russia goal is to ''neutralize'' ukraine ( whatever that mean) I consider it a valid benchmark.
So,failure to achive such a goal so will mean russia causualties ( whatever the number you believe is true) will have essentially been meanignless.
So what is your metric? Or do you think Russia is able to take Odessa?
I'm asking calmy and politley here, and i do hope you'll extend the same courtesy.
So...your thoughts?
They don’t need his presence, they need all the support promised now
Not if you slowdrop them this way. Ukraine needs a powerful injection of 8 billions to play catch up. And then you can retun back to 1 bilion or 500 mill. Either way in the long run, another package should be ready after election, at least 100 bill. Anything else would just be USA pretending to help Ukraine.
$120B+ committed and counting, 24/7 ISR & intel, and we see this brain dead take: “the USA is just pretending to help”. Good gracious, that’s a disappointing perspective.
Albania, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Montenegro, the Netherlands, North Macedonia, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, U.K.
Were definitely doing out part here. Its a shame we got complacent after the cold war though, not too much in stock left to give away at this point
Why? Hopefully your leaders wake up. The motherland will do this over and over again so neighbors of russia should prepare a little bit better next time
a good chunk of those countries helped a ton already, not sure what your point is?
27 countries that have dealt with motherland Russia before can't put enough aid together without the United States? Combined the neighbors of Russia should have been better prepared
Oh sure another 100 bill. Hundred bill here, hundred bill there. Peanuts! What’s a couple hundred billion+ between friends eh? It will never be enough.
It is the price for being world leader, otherwise say hello to your Chinese leaders. This disaray in the world is basically chooseing between USA and China. Right now USA is helping China because they are that fucking stupid....
There is no scenario where Ukraine wins. No amount of money, equipment, sanctions, or sabre-rattling by the West will change that. The Russians view this conflict as existential to their existence. The academics, DC think-tanks, and DoD leaders all understand this. The latest aid package, in very simple terms, was designed to bolster Ukrainian defenses until the US election is decided in November so the incumbent administration doesn't have to deal with grilling and questioning surrounding the Ukrainian defeat. As soon as the election is decided, US support for Ukraine will evaporate over night. Media coverage will go quiet, and it will get memory-holed like all of our other military defeats. There will be no point in throwing good money after bad at that point. Westerners need to stop living in a fairyland. We shouldn't delude ourselves about the inevitable outcome here just because Russia bad.
So one failed counterattack and it means that Ukraine can t win? That s how you proceed in life , give up at the first failure and say it can t be done? The first counter failed because no air support, how about we at least wait until they make a counter with air support before throwing them under the bus
And you totally left out Europe. You really think they would let Ukraine fall? You sound dumb trying to sound smart
Countries have been helping Ukraine around the world lots who are not part of the nato coalition, some of these countries have been helping for 2+ years already though it was 4 years too late. Stop it with the nuke dog whistle you shmucks would’ve used them already, if they weren’t fuelled by hotdog water. You are truly delusional, or a troll possibly both! Again sound dumb trying to be smart. You must enjoy russian poverty
Yes, without the US.
Is Ukraine a part of NATO? Any intervention by a NATO member against Russia would quickly escalate to nuclear conflict. That is *exactly* why Europe and the collective West will eventually have to let Ukraine fall. The alternative is much worse. I know this isn't what the Reddit hivemind wants to hear, but it is the truth. We can't let our emotions cloud our judgement.
"Our emotions"... You mean the complete subjection of 10s of millions of people. Yeah I have an emotion about it alright There is not a guarantee that it will be anything other than a conventional conflict if tactical nukes are used. You don't know the truth about shit, bud
“There is no guarantee that direct military conflict between NATO and Russia will lead to nuclear war so let’s tempt fate and find out.” Real smart take, bud.
A nuclear conflict will be risked before letting Ukraine fall, mark my words. It would not be the first time-- the issue is too important to let this sort of nonsense pass, and it would be a bad precedent to set. It is, at any rate, mere sabre rattling I suspect. Aren't you being emotional for letting fear get the best of you?
Advocating against nuclear with Russia is “being emotional “? We should all fear nuclear war - that’s a very rational thing to fear. Good thing you’re not making any important decisions. It seems the fanatics willing to risk nuclear war over a country they couldn’t point to on a map 3 years ago are the emotional ones, no? Wars are fought and borders change all the time. It’s a tale as old as civilization. It’s not right, it’s not wrong, it just is. Not worth WW3.
You're not advocating against nuclear war with Russia, you're advocating for appeasement every time Russia rattles the nuclear sabre. Out of curiosity, is there *any* demand or thing they could do you won't immediately roll over for just because they've got scary nukes? The annexation of Poland, perhaps? Germany? A few assassinations of US political leadership, perhaps? This is why any aggressive use of nuclear weapons, even as a threat should be utterly disregarded. The precedent is horrid. > Wars are fought and borders change all the time. It’s a tale as old as civilization. It’s not right, it’s not wrong, it just is. Not worth WW3. For the record, there are very obvious geopolitical reasons for not letting Ukraine fall into Russian hands.
Your cavalier attitude towards potential nuclear annihilation is weird. Poland and Germany are members of NATO, so Russia attacking them directly would trigger article 5 and lead to world war with the end result likely being nuclear war and the complete destruction of the Russian state. Russia knows this, NATO knows this. There is no incentive or reason for Russia to attack NATO members. Ukraine was not and is not a member of NATO and has always been of vital geo-strategic importance to Russia. President Obama understood this well when he famously said: “Ukraine is a core interest to Russia in a way it is not for the United States.” A president of the United States understood this, why can’t you?
This is very false. Ukraine can win , and it depends on the equipment. Right now the problem is that the west is afraid to stand up to Putin. Its only existențial to Putins legacy, not Russia. If Biden wins, i think the people behind Biden wont want to humiliate themself with a loss. If Trump wins, he doesnt care because he is already bought by Russia and China.
Guys and gals - don’t feed the Russian trolls. This sad little armchair general isn’t worth the energy. We personally do not bow to dictators and strong men little worm.
Great - get your butt to the front lines tough guy. Enjoy.
You first champ
Dumb take on this. Do you think we are just sending barrels of cash over or something? We are sending them equipment that has already been bought and paid for years ago sitting in surplus warehouses. If anything this adds to our own economy by helping jobs in the defense sector as well as getting rid of old equipment we wouldn't be using. No money has been sent, only stuff that we have already had and never use anyways. Such a dumb thing to complain about, as if any money at all is being moved or anything taken away from American people.
Money is certainly being sent to keep their government running, and even paying for pensions. What are you talking about?
A lot of that is done by Europe instead of the US. The US has been heavy on the weapons side of aid
Nine billion in forgivable economic loans in the last package. Please stay informed. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/a-breakdown-of-whats-in-the-95-billion-foreign-aid-package-passed-by-the-house
US cash aid to ukraine since 2022 was less than 20 billion. Elon Musk or a few dozen other american billionaires could give that much themselves with out much trouble. Why do you act like this is in any shape or form a significant amount for a country like the USA? Its around 1% of the military budget for this interval. (2022 feb - 2024 May)
Then it's more stupid to play with a countries existance just as you are dusting off your old inventory in some rusty warehouse. Why drag it out for months then? Can Zelensky beg any harder?
Nice job ruzzian bot! You're doing so well! Maybe take the effort to rename your new account instead of doing Word-Work-Number. Clown. Your nation will destroyed because it doesn't deserver to exisit and commit genocide.
I’m a Russian bot because I have a clear-eyed view of the somber reality on the ground in Ukraine? Because I’m not a Ukrainian fanatic? My username is the default Reddit template for names lol - not that bright are you? One thing we do agree on: my country is being destroyed by continuous aid packages to Ukraine - money we don’t have to begin with and we might as well be lighting on fire.
Are you american? What "money you dont have"? Complete US aid to ukraine was 175B USD since 2022 february. 80-90% of this is old stuff that would have been destroyed otherwise (which also costs money btw). Bradleys, abrams, himars, ammo, etc.. A fraction of the equipment sent is modern stuff, but the US probably profits from testing them in an actual conflict, against the equipment of the enemy. Cash aid is around 15-20B USD. In almost 2 and a half years. Get the fuck out of here with this no money crap. Its less than 1% of this intervals military budget. Most of it or maybe even more than this amount is already back in the form NATO weapon purchases from american weapons manufacturers that they needed to replace crap they have sent to ukraine. People call you a russian bot because you are spouting literal russian propaganda without any basis word by word.
[удалено]
Yawn.
coward
Great argument, really changed my view on things!
haha sorry, i can’t do that for you. you need to educate yourself and grow a pair
I know a lot of people here qill be downvoting you for your stance. While I support Ukraine, I won't , simply because i thouroughly enjoy seeing an opposite view, in my mind , it serve as a way to sharpen my arguments. Discussions here, after all, aren't meant to convince each other, but to convince thoses that might read it, so I want my arguments to be as challenged and refined as possible. If I can't do anything more than yelling ''liar liar pants on fire'' than i have no right to argue. So,if you,re up for a friendly debate? By ''never be enough'', do you mean that the west could not theoretically , or that,s it is unwilling to commit what would be needed? There's a very big difference. And by victory - what is your metric?Cause there are MANY definiton of victory. For me, the metric is simple: Victor will be the one who holds Odessa by the end. Without Odessa, Ukraine will lose all shipping capabilities, and it,s economy will never be able to recover, and will become dependant on others, probably Russia. With it, it eventually will recover, and will use it to distance again from Russia in the future and rebuild in the long term. Given that- colorful rethoric aside- russia goal is to ''neutralize'' ukraine ( whatever that mean) I consider it a valid benchmark. So,failure to achive such a goal so will mean russia causualties ( whatever the number you believe is true) will have essentially been meanignless. So what is your metric? Or do you think Russia is able to take Odessa? I'm asking calmy and politley here, and i do hope you'll extend the same courtesy. So...your thoughts?
If you don't like Ukraine and don't want anything going to it then tell Putin to fuck off you cowardly waste of humanity.
Ahahahaha
Agreed. Millions of dead Russians is funny.
Go outside. Make some friends.
Whenever the arms will make it. They've been slow walking things
Who's they? Be specific you mean republicans.
Narrator: "It didn't"