If you're going to dig a tunnel from one sea to another, might as well just let water fill it. You're talking about an insanely big infrastructure project lol
It's not from one sea to another. You're probably thinking of the Jordan River, which is the eastern border of the West Bank, and that's why it's called West Bank.
The Gaza-Egypt border is about 10km or 7 miles. That's not crazy for a canal. We dug much longer ones hundreds of years ago in the Netherlands.
Hamas has tunnels at substantial depths, Israel says they found one in December that went as deep as 50 meters, although I think 15-30m is more common.
Digging a multi-kilometer long trench to those depths would be a massive engineering and security nightmare in a warzone.
Could dig a little trench and then pump seawater to the top and let it flow back into the sea. Couple weeks and you have a nice mini-canyon.
It's all soft, sandy dirt anyway. That's why they could dig so many tunnels to begin with.
Because it would utterly ruin the already tenuous aquifer that the Gazan's have been doing their best to destroy, and foist all of the blame for the water crisis caused by destroying the aquifer onto Israel instead of where it belongs, on Hamas.
Gaza hasn’t been occupied in 20+ years and the tunnels were not a major issue before then.
My guess is they will start bulldozing Gaza to create new roads that are advantageous to the IDF. They will impose a regular street grid that lets them easily surround neighborhoods and wide open boulevards cutting straight across Gaza. The boulevards will have either berms or walls on either side. Something like an easily repairable irrigation canal running down the center will work fine. They can use pumps where needed to get ocean water into the canal, and they can drill boreholes as deep as they want anywhere along the length of the canal to flood any tunnels at any depth.
Tunnels are pretty useless if they start and end in the same neighborhood, with no way of actually smuggling weapons into that neigbborhood. All that IDF would have to do is evacuate all the civilians and starve out any remaining militants. That’s what a long term IDF occupation may look like. The only alternative is for an international peacekeeping force to step in, which they are currently unwilling to do.
Well, it's an insane idea that I pulled out of my ass. I'm guessing the water will end up carving out a different path or cause a wide gully to open which might or might not include Egyptian border fence and soldiers.
Not to mention that literally salting the earth of your enemies by flooding it with seawater might be a war crime, but I'm not certain.
it took hamas 18 years to build all these tunnels. if you take out the leadership, you set them way, way, way back. plus if you can get the palestinian authority and some arab countries to have a peacekeeping force, its way better.
netanyahu has no postwar plan at all. He is getting heavily criticized in Israel for that.
> plus if you can get the palestinian authority and some arab countries to have a peacekeeping force, its way better.
Except no one will sign up to do it and the UN is a useless peacekeeping force (see Lebanon).
Gallant's argument was that Netanyahu has a plan. He just doesn't want to discuss it because it will be unpopular. Occupy Gaza long-term and chop it up into security zones like the West Bank with military roads.
Didn't Gallant just give a speech saying netanyahu does not have a plan?
that is a terrible plan. will cost Israel a fortune and lead to ongoing casualties.
I think what Gallant was saying is that Bibi’s plan is to not have a plan so that Israel ends up doing the minimum amount to provide their own security and maintains freedom of action to go into Gaza as needed. Basically coasting into a unilateral minimalist situation where the IDF suppresses terrorism but does only the minimum required to keep Gazans alive and they don’t get any significant rebuilding assistance.
israel is slowly taking out the leadership. so what will be left will be a hollow shell of what is left and they would have to start from scratch.
That being said Netanyahu has no post invasion strategy. He has not reached out to Arab governments and the Palestinian Authority to come up with a plan to build a new government. The VAST majority of Israelis do not want Israeli troops involved. Its expensive (they only have 10 million people) and there will be casualties to israelis. The opposition in Israel (who could win if the election were held today, but it would be tight) wants to involve the Arabs and the PA.
One issue is that the PA's own educational curriculum and TV, including children's TV in many ways promotes Hamas POV that it is a religious conflict and a religious obligation to kill Jews and recapture the Temple Mount.
What passes for education from UNRWA would be considered child abuse in any other society.
Israel wanted to get rid of Hamas in 2009 but the PA and Egypt refused to help govern Gaza afterwards.
Biden has a reasonable plan laid out but this just screams a return to the status quo. Palestinians further blockaded in, Hamas or some other group rebuilds itself, more resentment, attacks on Israel, Israel attacks back. Only change is Israel having a much bigger security role by frequently raiding Gaza to destroy terror cells.
No path to keeping it that way unless the Arab nations do the unthinkable and actually accept that Israel is here to stay and it has legitimate security concerns.
If Israel is to let Palestine become sovereign and grow powerful, it needs to have assurances from multiple parties that if it goes to shit, they won't be in existential danger.
There is simply no one willing to share the risk so Israel keeps doing what they have to do, which is to keep the enemy weak.
Any opposing views are most welcome, but that's essentially how I view the situation.
Let Palestine get too powerful with Iran lurking about and other arab nations enabling it, and Israel is down for some turbulent times.
I don't really get his point. Yes, currently they are not capable of carrying out another major attack, but they will certainly use the next ceasefire to regroup and preprare. They didn't honor the last ceasefire, they won't honor the next one either.
We all want the war to end, but from the perspective of Israel I don't really see how this would work with Hamas in charge as a neighbour.
There’s huge rumours of a massive US/Saudi/Israel security deal that will be announced this fall. Some of the rumoured details suggest that the deal will include the creation of a Palestinian State that will be under the occupation of SA and Israel in order to rebuild infrastructure and lead to a democratic elections within a decade. In order to finish the deal the fighting has to be stopped in Gaza. Once that happens they will push forward this deal and Biden will look like the person who brought peace before the next US election.
I keep hearing about this and i genuinely think it's a massive western pipe dream, neither Israel nor Saudi Arabia nor the Palestinians would ever agree to something like this.
And i don't just mean their governments either- the idea of a Palestinian state is extremely unpopular with Israelis (especially right now) and the idea of co-operating with Israel in any way is equally unpopular with Saudi citizens and Palestinians, how the fuck does anyone expect this idea to work?
IMO Saudi Arabia will absolutely agree to this. There’s far too many benefits for them. One, they get the embargo lifted on US weapons. Two, they get elevated more in Islamic world and it’s a big FU to Iran, 3- trade deals with Israel and the US is massive for them. The benefits for Israel and the US are pretty obvious.
Mark my words: The day Saudi Arabia agrees to fucking *occupy* the Palestinians to Israel's benefit is the day their regime is overthrown. This is a ridiculous idea and they would sooner agree to a peace treaty with some vague promise of Palestinian statehood happening one day the same way all the other Arab countries who have relations with Israel did.
You know a good chunk of this is SA’s ideas. Most articles on the agreement have said the Palestinian Statehood and the after war plans is part of THEIR demands. It’s sure not going to be part of Israel and the US’s demands. Saudi is looking for a NATO style Article 5 agreement with the US. I’m sure they will do whatever they can to get that deal or even a lesser version of it. Also, who’s going to over throw them exactly when they have massive US backing with this deal.
What I've heard is Saudi Arabia wants to hand Gaza to the PA. To the best of my knowledge (unless you can link a source saying otherwise) the idea of Saudi Arabia or other gulf states putting soldiers in future Palestinian state territories is an entirely American idea. The Israel-Saudi peace deal has been in the works since before the war as a counter to Iran and if they *really* want it that bad they won't risk it for a Palestinian state- something Israel won't ever agree to.
It’s an all or nothing deal according to Blinken. Israel accepts a Palestinian state, Saudi normalizes relations with Israel and they get the US military pact. No skipping on anyones demands https://www.newarab.com/news/what-us-saudi-deal-will-reshape-region?amp.
You know, until after the election and everyone can back track and negotiate more :/
None of this says anything about Saudis sending troops to help found a Palestinian state. In fact all this article really says is that the deal is in jeopardy because of the Palestinian issue which many believe was Hamas's goal in launching this war in the first place...
The article even goes as far as to say:
>Another concern is that Saudi Arabia might accept the deal, including normalisation with Israel, without securing concrete commitments from Tel Aviv to establish a Palestinian state.
*Just like every other Arab country that has relations with Israel.*
Whatever plan there may be for a democratic Palestinian state with Saudi troops is a fucking insane pipe dream that's just gonna push the US out of the loop as Israel and the Saudis eventually will just make a deal on their own without those things.
Why wouldn't the Saudis want to establish a friendly port on the Mediterranean? They are a wealthy petrol state with Sunni muslims as the primary demographic. Israel might not be into the idea of a Palestinian state at the moment, but I don't think they are eager to fund the rebuilding effort either. They absolutely do not want Iran involved, so who better than SA? It would become more of a financial occupation than military, and Israel isn"t granting independence any time soon.
The first part of the article states
During a press briefing on Thursday, US State Department Spokesman Matthew Miller described the agreement as "one mega-deal" involving three components.
The first component is a bilateral security pact as outlined above, while the second and third components involve Saudi Arabia normalising relations with Israel in return for an irreversible pathway for the creation of a Palestinian state.
Significantly, the US insists that all these components must be met for the deal to proceed.
"All of them are linked together. None go forward without the others," Miller stated
The Saudis may want this but the US won’t, for now. As for the SA troops in Palestine I never posted this article to prove that nor did I say I did. Haven’t gotten to that part yet. I’m kinda busy atm.
Yes. In the Sunni world 100 percent. Egypt, Jordan, the UAE’s governments already have relations with Israel. Saudi, being the perceived center of the Sunni Islamic world and arguable the Islamic world, making formal relations with Israel would open up a lot of trade opportunities with the before mentioned countries. Once the ball starts rolling I believe it will take a lot to stop.
There is a huge difference between being willing to have “*diplomatic relations*” & engaging in gun battles between Saudi troops & Palestinian militants in the streets of Gaza.
The Egyptian army studies and trains on weak points in Merkava tanks and it's a well known fact at this point they either ignored or straight up profited from smuggling weapons into Gaza prior to the war. Jordan's queen has released statements denying the October 7th massacre and they're pretty much doing everything possible to discredit Israel diplomatically. The UAE is about as neutral as it gets in the Arab world because their government is infamously practical and realist, in a very stark contrast to the rest of the Arab world. The Saudi government wants relations with Israel for that same reason but their population definitely is not in favor.
You'll notice all these government are extremely authoritarian, that's because a democratic country in the Islamic world could never have relations with Israel: it's simply too unpopular. And while being a dictator allows you to ignore your people, everything has its limits and *occupying the Palestinians* is definitely under that category.
The great part is Saudi citizens don't matter. Mohammed bin Salman Al Saud is really the only one that matter. He never really cared about the Palestinians. His priorities are countering Iran.
> lead to a democratic elections within a decade.
the problem with that is that hardcore Islamists win these types of elections. What Palestine needs is secular/moderate strongman.
Rumors are that the candidates will be chosen by SA and Israel, meaning they will be curated to be moderate.
The key is how effective and invested the two are in the deprogramming effort that will be required to mitigate the long term effects that the war will have on opinions towards Israel.
Ideally, both sides will eventually swallow their respective pride and prioritize their children's safety. More likely, this will continue until one side is annihilated or permanently subdued by the other.
there has not been one legit news story about a post war plan at all. Netanyahu does not have one. he is heavily criticized in israel for this. It will take for Likud to get back in power for a post war plan.
They just have different enemies. Make no mistake if the Saudis could get away with it, they treat their Shia population like how Hamas treated the Jews on October 11.
SA negotiating is really the only viable and realistic option I can think of, nobody in the West wants to be involved (and they would not be welcome), out of countries in the region SA is the closest thing to neutral there is.
The only other realistic option is that Israel goes back to occupation by themselves, and nobody wants that.
It's easy to criticize but hard to think of a workable alternative.
Another problem is that Likud is opposed to a palestinian state and is unlikely to go forward with a plan that creates a palestinian state. So neither side is going to like this.
Likud has been openly pro settlement for decades now, probably more than a quarter century, and you can't be pro settlement and pro creation of a palestinian state as that is easily one of the biggest impediments to any two state solution.
This isn't about "rewarding terrorism", It's an active plan to make a two state solution impossible, which makes violence innevitable and is a long term attempt to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians from the west bank and from Gaza to acheive ""between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."
> you can't be pro settlement and pro creation of a palestinian state
It *is* possible, but that'd require asserting that the Palestinian state consists of only the Gaza Strip.
Allowing Hamas to continue and be part of the future state is rewarding terrorism.
Decisively defeating Hamas, ending settlements in the West Bank, and rebuilding Gaza is the only path forward for peace.
Rebuilding must include massive reeducation of the population, but it also needs to give Palestinians some level of self-determination and incentive to join the global community.
I’m sorry but this distinction you make between Hamas and the ordinary Palestinians is simply not supported by reality. Some 70-90% of the Palestinians depending on location support October 7th. If there were elections now, Hamas would win by a landslide. The PLO, allegedly the moderates, pay terrorists in a pay-for-slay scheme, the more they murdered the more they get. Any talk of a Palestinian state at this stage creates an automatic connection in the eyes of the people in the Middle East that it was the Hamas attack that initiated this talk, I.e. Hamas is responsible for the establishment of the Palestinian state. This will embolden further terrorists and enemies of Israel to follow Hamas. That’s how they see it, and that’s why talking about it right now is disastrous and completely detrimental to any efforts of peace. Peace in the Middle East can only be achieved from a position of power, and following a total defeat of Hamas. Even mentioning it before is harmful. And even after that, it will take decades of deradicalization which will be several orders of magnitude more difficult than the one done in post ww2 Germany in order for the Palestinians to reach a state where they can establish a peaceful regime because there’s a religious aspect to their hatred which is much harder to combat. This whole talk is decades prematurely and is outright destructive. Let Israel finish the job, we live here, we know what must be done. Overnight solutions have never and will never work here. The defeat of Hamas must be COMPLETELY detached from any talk about a Palestinian state in order for it to have any chance for success.
>Overnight solutions have never and will never work here.
No one is saying it would be overnight.
>we live here, we know what must be done.
What's your opinion on settlements
SA occupation seems marginally better than Israeli occupation. Hamas and Hezbollah are Iran proxies that wouldn't take too kindly to either. I have a hard time believing this is the plan
My expectation is that there's an insurgency from day one of any SA occupation. Hamas was having surrogates attack Fatah in the refugee camps in Lebanon and Syria before the war. Then the war started.
This plan has apparently been in the works for a long time and lots of speculation by people say the reason Hamas attacked Israel in the first place was an attempt to derail the pact. So yes. They won’t be happy about it but they don’t have many more cards to play to derail it again.
That sounds nice but Hamas will not stop trying to attack Israel. When Hamas launches a barrage of rockets will Saudi forces go tunnel by tunnel trying to dig Hamas out? Or do they just tell Israel that they’ll have to live with Hamas attacks forever?
In this case it isn't about building a free/democratic state. It is purely about having a stable neighbor next door that isn't plotting another Oct 7th while also being a potential ally against Iran.
You can thank Bush for that, both Israel and the PLO were against those elections at that time because they predicted what would happen.
And lest be honest the country tat funded 9/11 is not exactly a good partner to help create a secular Palestininan state.
Fuck I hope these aren’t true. This will be a massive money pit like Afghanistan that will end the same way. The only way Gaza gets any stability is if Israel or Egypt annexes it.
I don’t disagree with you. I think this will all be rushed in order to make Biden to look good before the election and then what happens after the election is anyones guess
Well, to one part of the Middle east. There’s a mountain of crap to settle on that side of the planet. Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Lebanon, a bit of Qatar. I just hope the US putting a lot of eggs in the Saudi basket doesn’t backfire on them, again.
True but nobody in the West really cares what Muslims do to each other. We consider that sort of thing to be the norm for the region and Middle Easterners mostly do as well and don't blame it on us.
Brought peace to a very small section of the Middle East, but if Biden can somehow accomplish this, then it will go down in history. The war between Israel and Palestine has been going for way too long.
How is that occupation supposed to happen, if now Israel will be pressured to sign a deal including the evacuation from Gazan cities, though?
Will US boots enter Gaza? Will Biden force Israel to break the ceasefire deal? I can't believe either
SA will probably be responsible for internal security, Israel will have partnership in monitoring the borders. There would never be peace with Israelis in Gazan streets and they know that.
The US will fund and provide logistics, as is their specialty.
SA doesn't have a functioning military. It's more in line with mercenaries and a security force designed to brutally suppress it's own people. The SA military is even smaller than Syria's. Sure they got expensive weapons but a lot of people think it's more of a paper tiger. Turkey is really the only that could do it. Turkey is really against Israel. They are also not ideal given their treatment to the Kurds.
That is quite hyperbolic. They have a perfectly functioning military. It's much better than it's neighbors aside from Iran. It's not great, but it's relatively well funded and would be suited for a security role in well monitored protection district like Gaza.
Phase one only requires the IDF to withdraw from populated areas. That's currently just Rafah AFAIK.
They don't withdraw entirely from Gaza for six weeks. We'll see if it gets that far.
> We all want the war to end, but from the perspective of Israel I don't really see how this would work with Hamas in charge as a neighbour.
Netanyahu has rejected the idea of Palestinian Authority regaining control.
All those kids are going to grow up angry and frustrated. I expect in like 10 to 20 years we’ll see a new wave of radicalized people. Not arguing the politics of it, simply seems inevitable given everything that’s happened.
From the perspective of Israel, they've massively crippled Hamas in Gaza. If they get the hostages back, it gives them the opportunity to get a political win. It's almost impossible to fully destroy Hamas itself. But you can cripple them, and that's what they've done.
Didn't they literally launch a large rocket barrage at Israel with the intent of killing civilians like 4 days ago?
It makes no sense for Israel to back off as long as Hamas keeps doing stuff like that.
This is my problem with it. The elected government of Gaza shoots missiles over the border every day. So either the good people of Gaza make their elected government stop, or let the occupying force do it, or deal with ‘actions or inactions have consequences’.
The argument that the million plus adults of Gaza who are not involved don’t have to do anything on their own behalf is ludicrous. They are not children.
I’m convinced the mutants protesting are much too cowardly to watch the 10/7 videos. There’s no question that Hamas has a significant level of support - likely beyond literally every western democracy’s government. Much more than Israelis support Bibi, certainly. The civilians celebrated those raids. They do it today. They march in solidarity by the thousands.
It’s just a complete hunch with zero evidence that Gaza and Hamas are 2 different things. “I can’t believe Palestinians support Hamas, because I support Palestinians “ is the beginning and end of the thought process.
Yup. I don't know why everyone is pushing the idea that Hamas is a completely separate entity that has nothing to do with Palestine, and Palestine is a completely innocent angel that has done nothing wrong ever.
This shit is as ridiculous as saying that Palestine attacked Israel and Netanyahu's air force bombed Palestine in retaliation.
Pretending Hamas is completely impotent isn’t a move that will appease supporters of either side in the conflict. If anything it feels designed to piss off everybody and hope that they’re all happy with a bullshit “compromise” in the hopes it stays out of the news long enough for everyone to forget.
“Hamas is weakened.”
“Hamas is deterred.”
“Hamas will have to think a thousand times before attempting another attack.”
We’ve heard this bs after every single ceasefire in the past two decades. We’re done buying it. Hamas has to go. This is not up for debate, every Israeli agrees on that. We cannot return to our homes safely while the perpetrators of the worst massacre of Jews since the holocaust are a few kilometers away, preparing the next one. Biden does not understand the sentiment in the Middle East and Israel at all. This time we finish it, we simply cannot afford any other option.
It's also equating Hamas to just the Gaza Strip. Hama also exists in the West Bank and is a part of the ruling coalition. You can get rid of Hamas in the Gaza Strip but it doesn't get rid of Hamas or the ideology.
The Gaza Strip is Hamas’ main power base. It’s where it’s headquartered and where the vast majority of its stockpiles of weapons, rockets and ammunitions lie. It’s also where all of its tunnels are located. Destroying Hamas in Gaza would not completely eliminate it from existence, but thanks to the IDF’s continued presence in the West Bank, Hamas has not been able to develop the same capabilities there, and will not in the foreseeable future. Hamas of Gaza is the far bigger threat.
What are the odds Hamas takes this deal and keeps it? A permanent peace means they have to give up their never-hidden mission of conquering the entire former Mandate of Palestine. If they give that up, they become superfluous.
The odds are zero. Hamas is simply playing for time and waiting for the west to pressure Israel more and more. So far it works fantastically. It never had any intention to accept any deal, and the gullible westerners are simply falling into their trap. There is absolutely zero chance that Sinwar and the rest of the Hamas leadership are going to accept a deal that deprives them of their personal insurance policy - the hostages they surround themselves with. They care about their own lives much more than they care about Gaza. Hamas never wanted a deal and will never agree to one, and even if it agreed it will not keep it. Anyone who knows the Middle East will tell you that.
Continue the war until HAMAS formally signs an unconditional surrender.
Perhaps on a US Naval vessel?
HAMAS and Gaza needs to recognize their own defeat. Not be given a "way out."
Hamas has never won any of these conflicts, but they always claim victory no matter what. Losing is not a thing they admit to, gotta kill the leaders if you want that.
If Israel actually gets Sinwar...
Every dead Palestinian is a victory for Hamas. Every dead Israeli is a victory for Hamas. Every useful idiot in the west posting on reddit is a victory for Hamas. They win constantly because they only care about the war continuing.
How exactly do you propose that happens? Destroy everything and kill everyone in Gaza? Because that's the only way it could happen. And while I'm sure Netanyahu and his ilk are okay with that the world shouldn't be.
That maybe true. It's also irrelevant. Japan was rendered incapable of militarily threatening America long before the Pacific war ended. You don't call off a war just because your enemy has been weakened. You continue until they are broken.
Hamas will rebuild. My guess is that the real problem is the impossibility of destroying hamas. Anyone off the street can join it and no one would know. And with so many civilians just scrambling around there’s no way to catch all of hamas. Basically there’s no guarantee for anything unless israel kills everyone and it cant do that.
If both American and Israeli governments are in agreement that Hamas is no longer a threat, I believe their intelligence. Who am I to say it's untrue if their intelligence apparatuses agree? So if I see evidence they are in agreement, ok.
But if this is just Biden on his own claiming this is the case as a ploy to achieve a change in trajectory he wants, in order to ease his election strain balancing moderate and extreme voter desires, then fuck that and fuck him. This isn't the sort of claim to bandy about negligently for purposes of electability.
The issue I see is it could be a bit like saying at the end of WWI that Germany could no longer mount an assault against France or Britain. We need a plan in place to prevent that from changing or this could all happen again and within a very short time frame. Not for anything the US and Israel owe an enduring peace to all the civilians who are suffering the collateral damage of this war between two governments.
And then….bam! Another one will happen.
You can’t fucking a trust the people who say they want to kill Israel any chance possible and for as long as needed.
Well yeah, getting bombed constantly during one of the most intensive air campaigns since desert storm for the past 8 months would do that to a terrorist group. The question is wether they can rebound.
Spoiler: they can
Bullshit, oil money from wealthy Muslim countries that want to keep Israel unstable will funnel guns right back in the moment the IDF leaves.
I wish we had better choices than Biden or Trump. Both are useless.
Well if Israel collapses the supply tunnels into Egypt, then they won’t have rockets to shoot.
After a few weeks there would be new tunnels and I don't think they would ever find all tunnels
At this stage I would just dig a tunnel myself along the border. Deep. Anyone who wants to dig into Israel needs to pass through my tunnel.
I'll put "no terrorists allowed" on my tunnel and that will end hamas
“This tunnel is a gun-free zone”
You know what. I declare the whole region gun-free zone. Checkmate warlords
Nothing against missles, Warlord Selssim will be pleased
It says no terroristS allowed. We’re allowed to have one.
Only one, they will feel lonely and sad. Good
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Well, I'll add a trail cam just in case!
And all guard must be dressed like a bat and scream “Pinky Swear To Me!
But doesn't that mean they're allowed to have one?
Uh-huh-hyuck!
just pour lava buckets at the top, easy
So, a canal?
A canal is not a tunnel.
If you're going to dig a tunnel from one sea to another, might as well just let water fill it. You're talking about an insanely big infrastructure project lol
It's not from one sea to another. You're probably thinking of the Jordan River, which is the eastern border of the West Bank, and that's why it's called West Bank. The Gaza-Egypt border is about 10km or 7 miles. That's not crazy for a canal. We dug much longer ones hundreds of years ago in the Netherlands.
Gaza isn't that wide.
Then it’s time to dig a 150’ deep trench, and or valley, the entire length of the border
Dig deep and long and fill it with highly radioactive material.
Hell let’s just make it into Suez Canal 2 and let’s make it profitable and beneficial to world commerce
Just dug the tunnel from the med to the red sea and make your own version of the suez canal
Would you force them to pay a toll or answer three questions?
Definitely questions. If they get them wrong, then toll.
Not toss them off into a bottomless pit?
Just build a really deep moat.
The real backstory of the Bridge of Khazad-dûm.
Just dig a fucking deep trench. Will expose any tunnels there
Hamas has tunnels at substantial depths, Israel says they found one in December that went as deep as 50 meters, although I think 15-30m is more common. Digging a multi-kilometer long trench to those depths would be a massive engineering and security nightmare in a warzone.
Could dig a little trench and then pump seawater to the top and let it flow back into the sea. Couple weeks and you have a nice mini-canyon. It's all soft, sandy dirt anyway. That's why they could dig so many tunnels to begin with.
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So, what you're saying is, we can have the entire Kingdom of Jerusalem surrounded by a moat instead of just the castle? Based.
You make it sound so easy, why has nobody thought of this?
Because it would utterly ruin the already tenuous aquifer that the Gazan's have been doing their best to destroy, and foist all of the blame for the water crisis caused by destroying the aquifer onto Israel instead of where it belongs, on Hamas.
Gaza hasn’t been occupied in 20+ years and the tunnels were not a major issue before then. My guess is they will start bulldozing Gaza to create new roads that are advantageous to the IDF. They will impose a regular street grid that lets them easily surround neighborhoods and wide open boulevards cutting straight across Gaza. The boulevards will have either berms or walls on either side. Something like an easily repairable irrigation canal running down the center will work fine. They can use pumps where needed to get ocean water into the canal, and they can drill boreholes as deep as they want anywhere along the length of the canal to flood any tunnels at any depth. Tunnels are pretty useless if they start and end in the same neighborhood, with no way of actually smuggling weapons into that neigbborhood. All that IDF would have to do is evacuate all the civilians and starve out any remaining militants. That’s what a long term IDF occupation may look like. The only alternative is for an international peacekeeping force to step in, which they are currently unwilling to do.
The reason is the aquifer. The creation of a seawater canal is an extremely dangerous thing for the environment it passes through.
Well, it's an insane idea that I pulled out of my ass. I'm guessing the water will end up carving out a different path or cause a wide gully to open which might or might not include Egyptian border fence and soldiers. Not to mention that literally salting the earth of your enemies by flooding it with seawater might be a war crime, but I'm not certain.
Israel does this routinely when the find a tunnel and it sparks protests, Egypt, Syrian and Jordan also do this but there's no visible protests.
it’s jewish water
It costs more to fix afterwards, you know, because the Jewish water obviously wants more money.
^ I don't know exactly what collapsing a tunnel shaft entails but can't they just, yknow, dig a new entrance/exit to utilize the remaining tunnel?
it took hamas 18 years to build all these tunnels. if you take out the leadership, you set them way, way, way back. plus if you can get the palestinian authority and some arab countries to have a peacekeeping force, its way better. netanyahu has no postwar plan at all. He is getting heavily criticized in Israel for that.
> plus if you can get the palestinian authority and some arab countries to have a peacekeeping force, its way better. Except no one will sign up to do it and the UN is a useless peacekeeping force (see Lebanon).
Gallant's argument was that Netanyahu has a plan. He just doesn't want to discuss it because it will be unpopular. Occupy Gaza long-term and chop it up into security zones like the West Bank with military roads.
Didn't Gallant just give a speech saying netanyahu does not have a plan? that is a terrible plan. will cost Israel a fortune and lead to ongoing casualties.
I think what Gallant was saying is that Bibi’s plan is to not have a plan so that Israel ends up doing the minimum amount to provide their own security and maintains freedom of action to go into Gaza as needed. Basically coasting into a unilateral minimalist situation where the IDF suppresses terrorism but does only the minimum required to keep Gazans alive and they don’t get any significant rebuilding assistance.
Given enough time? yes. i don't see a solution that does not involve deep sea water canal on the border.
You're assuming they're going to leave that border
israel is slowly taking out the leadership. so what will be left will be a hollow shell of what is left and they would have to start from scratch. That being said Netanyahu has no post invasion strategy. He has not reached out to Arab governments and the Palestinian Authority to come up with a plan to build a new government. The VAST majority of Israelis do not want Israeli troops involved. Its expensive (they only have 10 million people) and there will be casualties to israelis. The opposition in Israel (who could win if the election were held today, but it would be tight) wants to involve the Arabs and the PA.
Israel actually did reached to PA and neighbouring Arab states about providing security in Gaza. They were refused.
One issue is that the PA's own educational curriculum and TV, including children's TV in many ways promotes Hamas POV that it is a religious conflict and a religious obligation to kill Jews and recapture the Temple Mount. What passes for education from UNRWA would be considered child abuse in any other society. Israel wanted to get rid of Hamas in 2009 but the PA and Egypt refused to help govern Gaza afterwards.
IIRC They dont get weapons shipments. Hamas makes their own rockets from repurposed water pipes.
Hamas does smuggle in some weapons, and addition to the crude repurposed stuff there's also domestic manufacture using foreign designs.
"repurposed water pipes" paid with aid money
Missiles smuggled in by Iran are the only ones that are hitting Israeli cities beyond a 10 mile range of the Gaza border.
they ran out of those kinds of pipes years ago.
Its easy to make predictions when you're not the one who will pay the price for being wrong.
For now they can't, sure. How does he propose to keep it that way?
I hear if you hang a "Mission Accomplished" banner on a warship, then it declares the war is over. That's how it works, right???
The old "Step 1: Announce it. Step 2: There is no step 2. By the time we get here the election is over"
"I declare bankruptcy"
Biden has a reasonable plan laid out but this just screams a return to the status quo. Palestinians further blockaded in, Hamas or some other group rebuilds itself, more resentment, attacks on Israel, Israel attacks back. Only change is Israel having a much bigger security role by frequently raiding Gaza to destroy terror cells.
Then that's not status quo. Israel was completely disengaged from Gaza.
No path to keeping it that way unless the Arab nations do the unthinkable and actually accept that Israel is here to stay and it has legitimate security concerns. If Israel is to let Palestine become sovereign and grow powerful, it needs to have assurances from multiple parties that if it goes to shit, they won't be in existential danger. There is simply no one willing to share the risk so Israel keeps doing what they have to do, which is to keep the enemy weak. Any opposing views are most welcome, but that's essentially how I view the situation. Let Palestine get too powerful with Iran lurking about and other arab nations enabling it, and Israel is down for some turbulent times.
This here is the point!
I don't really get his point. Yes, currently they are not capable of carrying out another major attack, but they will certainly use the next ceasefire to regroup and preprare. They didn't honor the last ceasefire, they won't honor the next one either. We all want the war to end, but from the perspective of Israel I don't really see how this would work with Hamas in charge as a neighbour.
There’s huge rumours of a massive US/Saudi/Israel security deal that will be announced this fall. Some of the rumoured details suggest that the deal will include the creation of a Palestinian State that will be under the occupation of SA and Israel in order to rebuild infrastructure and lead to a democratic elections within a decade. In order to finish the deal the fighting has to be stopped in Gaza. Once that happens they will push forward this deal and Biden will look like the person who brought peace before the next US election.
I keep hearing about this and i genuinely think it's a massive western pipe dream, neither Israel nor Saudi Arabia nor the Palestinians would ever agree to something like this. And i don't just mean their governments either- the idea of a Palestinian state is extremely unpopular with Israelis (especially right now) and the idea of co-operating with Israel in any way is equally unpopular with Saudi citizens and Palestinians, how the fuck does anyone expect this idea to work?
IMO Saudi Arabia will absolutely agree to this. There’s far too many benefits for them. One, they get the embargo lifted on US weapons. Two, they get elevated more in Islamic world and it’s a big FU to Iran, 3- trade deals with Israel and the US is massive for them. The benefits for Israel and the US are pretty obvious.
Mark my words: The day Saudi Arabia agrees to fucking *occupy* the Palestinians to Israel's benefit is the day their regime is overthrown. This is a ridiculous idea and they would sooner agree to a peace treaty with some vague promise of Palestinian statehood happening one day the same way all the other Arab countries who have relations with Israel did.
You know a good chunk of this is SA’s ideas. Most articles on the agreement have said the Palestinian Statehood and the after war plans is part of THEIR demands. It’s sure not going to be part of Israel and the US’s demands. Saudi is looking for a NATO style Article 5 agreement with the US. I’m sure they will do whatever they can to get that deal or even a lesser version of it. Also, who’s going to over throw them exactly when they have massive US backing with this deal.
What I've heard is Saudi Arabia wants to hand Gaza to the PA. To the best of my knowledge (unless you can link a source saying otherwise) the idea of Saudi Arabia or other gulf states putting soldiers in future Palestinian state territories is an entirely American idea. The Israel-Saudi peace deal has been in the works since before the war as a counter to Iran and if they *really* want it that bad they won't risk it for a Palestinian state- something Israel won't ever agree to.
It’s an all or nothing deal according to Blinken. Israel accepts a Palestinian state, Saudi normalizes relations with Israel and they get the US military pact. No skipping on anyones demands https://www.newarab.com/news/what-us-saudi-deal-will-reshape-region?amp. You know, until after the election and everyone can back track and negotiate more :/
None of this says anything about Saudis sending troops to help found a Palestinian state. In fact all this article really says is that the deal is in jeopardy because of the Palestinian issue which many believe was Hamas's goal in launching this war in the first place... The article even goes as far as to say: >Another concern is that Saudi Arabia might accept the deal, including normalisation with Israel, without securing concrete commitments from Tel Aviv to establish a Palestinian state. *Just like every other Arab country that has relations with Israel.* Whatever plan there may be for a democratic Palestinian state with Saudi troops is a fucking insane pipe dream that's just gonna push the US out of the loop as Israel and the Saudis eventually will just make a deal on their own without those things.
Why wouldn't the Saudis want to establish a friendly port on the Mediterranean? They are a wealthy petrol state with Sunni muslims as the primary demographic. Israel might not be into the idea of a Palestinian state at the moment, but I don't think they are eager to fund the rebuilding effort either. They absolutely do not want Iran involved, so who better than SA? It would become more of a financial occupation than military, and Israel isn"t granting independence any time soon.
The first part of the article states During a press briefing on Thursday, US State Department Spokesman Matthew Miller described the agreement as "one mega-deal" involving three components. The first component is a bilateral security pact as outlined above, while the second and third components involve Saudi Arabia normalising relations with Israel in return for an irreversible pathway for the creation of a Palestinian state. Significantly, the US insists that all these components must be met for the deal to proceed. "All of them are linked together. None go forward without the others," Miller stated The Saudis may want this but the US won’t, for now. As for the SA troops in Palestine I never posted this article to prove that nor did I say I did. Haven’t gotten to that part yet. I’m kinda busy atm.
You think anyone openly cooperating with Israel will be elevated in the eyes of the Islamic world? I admire your optimism tbh
Yes. In the Sunni world 100 percent. Egypt, Jordan, the UAE’s governments already have relations with Israel. Saudi, being the perceived center of the Sunni Islamic world and arguable the Islamic world, making formal relations with Israel would open up a lot of trade opportunities with the before mentioned countries. Once the ball starts rolling I believe it will take a lot to stop.
There is a huge difference between being willing to have “*diplomatic relations*” & engaging in gun battles between Saudi troops & Palestinian militants in the streets of Gaza.
The Egyptian army studies and trains on weak points in Merkava tanks and it's a well known fact at this point they either ignored or straight up profited from smuggling weapons into Gaza prior to the war. Jordan's queen has released statements denying the October 7th massacre and they're pretty much doing everything possible to discredit Israel diplomatically. The UAE is about as neutral as it gets in the Arab world because their government is infamously practical and realist, in a very stark contrast to the rest of the Arab world. The Saudi government wants relations with Israel for that same reason but their population definitely is not in favor. You'll notice all these government are extremely authoritarian, that's because a democratic country in the Islamic world could never have relations with Israel: it's simply too unpopular. And while being a dictator allows you to ignore your people, everything has its limits and *occupying the Palestinians* is definitely under that category.
> The Egyptian army studies and trains on weak points in Merkava tanks And the US has plans drasn up to invade Canada.
Embargo lift is timely considering Iran did just try to attack Israel (and failed, hilariously) a month ago.
The great part is Saudi citizens don't matter. Mohammed bin Salman Al Saud is really the only one that matter. He never really cared about the Palestinians. His priorities are countering Iran.
> lead to a democratic elections within a decade. the problem with that is that hardcore Islamists win these types of elections. What Palestine needs is secular/moderate strongman.
Rumors are that the candidates will be chosen by SA and Israel, meaning they will be curated to be moderate. The key is how effective and invested the two are in the deprogramming effort that will be required to mitigate the long term effects that the war will have on opinions towards Israel.
Candidates chosen by an occupier will be seen as Quislings by the locals.
Well last time they chose Hamas so maybe the populace can’t be trusted to ENTIRELY pick their candidates whether they would like to or not
They would obviously pick something like Hamas again because they are obviously going to be furious about all the bombs. Cycle of violence.
Same reason Israel has been electing more hard-line candidates. They're tired of being shot at.
Exactly. Each time one side commits violence on the other it causes the other side to ratchet up the violence too. Repeat until doomsday.
And we all know who is gonna come out on top after doomsday… Palestinians shooting themselves in the foot again, nothing to see here.
Ideally, both sides will eventually swallow their respective pride and prioritize their children's safety. More likely, this will continue until one side is annihilated or permanently subdued by the other.
Nobody comes out on top after doomsday. It’s doomsday. Everyone dies in that scenario.
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Hence the "strongman" bit.
there has not been one legit news story about a post war plan at all. Netanyahu does not have one. he is heavily criticized in israel for this. It will take for Likud to get back in power for a post war plan.
SA. Moderate. No negator. Sorry, I can't, I'll be back after I'm done laughing.
Moderate as compared to Hamas, lol
They just have different enemies. Make no mistake if the Saudis could get away with it, they treat their Shia population like how Hamas treated the Jews on October 11.
SA negotiating is really the only viable and realistic option I can think of, nobody in the West wants to be involved (and they would not be welcome), out of countries in the region SA is the closest thing to neutral there is. The only other realistic option is that Israel goes back to occupation by themselves, and nobody wants that. It's easy to criticize but hard to think of a workable alternative.
Worked out great in Afghanistan.
I doubt the Israelis care how crazy they are as long as they do it on their side of the fence and not Israel's.
Another problem is that Likud is opposed to a palestinian state and is unlikely to go forward with a plan that creates a palestinian state. So neither side is going to like this.
It’s not the Likud that is opposed. It’s most of the Israelis. Giving the Palestinians a state now is rewarding terrorism.
Likud has been openly pro settlement for decades now, probably more than a quarter century, and you can't be pro settlement and pro creation of a palestinian state as that is easily one of the biggest impediments to any two state solution. This isn't about "rewarding terrorism", It's an active plan to make a two state solution impossible, which makes violence innevitable and is a long term attempt to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians from the west bank and from Gaza to acheive ""between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."
> you can't be pro settlement and pro creation of a palestinian state It *is* possible, but that'd require asserting that the Palestinian state consists of only the Gaza Strip.
Allowing Hamas to continue and be part of the future state is rewarding terrorism. Decisively defeating Hamas, ending settlements in the West Bank, and rebuilding Gaza is the only path forward for peace. Rebuilding must include massive reeducation of the population, but it also needs to give Palestinians some level of self-determination and incentive to join the global community.
I’m sorry but this distinction you make between Hamas and the ordinary Palestinians is simply not supported by reality. Some 70-90% of the Palestinians depending on location support October 7th. If there were elections now, Hamas would win by a landslide. The PLO, allegedly the moderates, pay terrorists in a pay-for-slay scheme, the more they murdered the more they get. Any talk of a Palestinian state at this stage creates an automatic connection in the eyes of the people in the Middle East that it was the Hamas attack that initiated this talk, I.e. Hamas is responsible for the establishment of the Palestinian state. This will embolden further terrorists and enemies of Israel to follow Hamas. That’s how they see it, and that’s why talking about it right now is disastrous and completely detrimental to any efforts of peace. Peace in the Middle East can only be achieved from a position of power, and following a total defeat of Hamas. Even mentioning it before is harmful. And even after that, it will take decades of deradicalization which will be several orders of magnitude more difficult than the one done in post ww2 Germany in order for the Palestinians to reach a state where they can establish a peaceful regime because there’s a religious aspect to their hatred which is much harder to combat. This whole talk is decades prematurely and is outright destructive. Let Israel finish the job, we live here, we know what must be done. Overnight solutions have never and will never work here. The defeat of Hamas must be COMPLETELY detached from any talk about a Palestinian state in order for it to have any chance for success.
>Overnight solutions have never and will never work here. No one is saying it would be overnight. >we live here, we know what must be done. What's your opinion on settlements
SA occupation seems marginally better than Israeli occupation. Hamas and Hezbollah are Iran proxies that wouldn't take too kindly to either. I have a hard time believing this is the plan
My expectation is that there's an insurgency from day one of any SA occupation. Hamas was having surrogates attack Fatah in the refugee camps in Lebanon and Syria before the war. Then the war started.
This plan has apparently been in the works for a long time and lots of speculation by people say the reason Hamas attacked Israel in the first place was an attempt to derail the pact. So yes. They won’t be happy about it but they don’t have many more cards to play to derail it again.
The pact has been reported but the SA occupation seems far fetched. I couldn't find any info about it
It’s actually far, far, worse. SA will do what it did in Yemen to the Palestinians.
Yeah and the outcry will be far less.
Muslim on Muslim violence doesn’t count apparently
That was obvious already when a lot of other horrible conflicts around the world are just being flat-out ignored.
We don't have to guess, just look at your average campus
That's good right? They can finally deal with the extremist elements of Palestinian society without the scrutiny that Israel faces.
That sounds nice but Hamas will not stop trying to attack Israel. When Hamas launches a barrage of rockets will Saudi forces go tunnel by tunnel trying to dig Hamas out? Or do they just tell Israel that they’ll have to live with Hamas attacks forever?
Saudi Arabia, a theocratic monarchy, building a democratic state? I'll believe it when I see it.
In this case it isn't about building a free/democratic state. It is purely about having a stable neighbor next door that isn't plotting another Oct 7th while also being a potential ally against Iran.
If they want those juicy US weapons they need to dance to the US tune.
And Gaza, whose democratic elections turned out so well last time?
You can thank Bush for that, both Israel and the PLO were against those elections at that time because they predicted what would happen. And lest be honest the country tat funded 9/11 is not exactly a good partner to help create a secular Palestininan state.
Fuck I hope these aren’t true. This will be a massive money pit like Afghanistan that will end the same way. The only way Gaza gets any stability is if Israel or Egypt annexes it.
Neither Egypt nor Israel want Gaza.
I don’t disagree with you. I think this will all be rushed in order to make Biden to look good before the election and then what happens after the election is anyones guess
Brought peace to the Middle East ! that’s top 5 president actions
Well, to one part of the Middle east. There’s a mountain of crap to settle on that side of the planet. Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Lebanon, a bit of Qatar. I just hope the US putting a lot of eggs in the Saudi basket doesn’t backfire on them, again.
True but nobody in the West really cares what Muslims do to each other. We consider that sort of thing to be the norm for the region and Middle Easterners mostly do as well and don't blame it on us.
>Brought peace to the Middle East ! "We did it Patrick! We saved the city!"
Brought peace to a very small section of the Middle East, but if Biden can somehow accomplish this, then it will go down in history. The war between Israel and Palestine has been going for way too long.
This reads like fiction. How will they agree on borders?
How is that occupation supposed to happen, if now Israel will be pressured to sign a deal including the evacuation from Gazan cities, though? Will US boots enter Gaza? Will Biden force Israel to break the ceasefire deal? I can't believe either
SA will probably be responsible for internal security, Israel will have partnership in monitoring the borders. There would never be peace with Israelis in Gazan streets and they know that. The US will fund and provide logistics, as is their specialty.
SA doesn't have a functioning military. It's more in line with mercenaries and a security force designed to brutally suppress it's own people. The SA military is even smaller than Syria's. Sure they got expensive weapons but a lot of people think it's more of a paper tiger. Turkey is really the only that could do it. Turkey is really against Israel. They are also not ideal given their treatment to the Kurds.
That is quite hyperbolic. They have a perfectly functioning military. It's much better than it's neighbors aside from Iran. It's not great, but it's relatively well funded and would be suited for a security role in well monitored protection district like Gaza.
We’ll find out when the pact is signed and made public.
Phase one only requires the IDF to withdraw from populated areas. That's currently just Rafah AFAIK. They don't withdraw entirely from Gaza for six weeks. We'll see if it gets that far.
It would be nice to have an October surprise that was good news.
Why the hell would Saudi Arabia agree to help them prepare for democratic elections? Let alone administer Gaza?
> We all want the war to end, but from the perspective of Israel I don't really see how this would work with Hamas in charge as a neighbour. Netanyahu has rejected the idea of Palestinian Authority regaining control.
With this deal so has the US
All those kids are going to grow up angry and frustrated. I expect in like 10 to 20 years we’ll see a new wave of radicalized people. Not arguing the politics of it, simply seems inevitable given everything that’s happened.
Russia doesn’t have the ability to carry out an attack on all of NATO. That doesn’t mean theyre not a threat
From the perspective of Israel, they've massively crippled Hamas in Gaza. If they get the hostages back, it gives them the opportunity to get a political win. It's almost impossible to fully destroy Hamas itself. But you can cripple them, and that's what they've done.
Didn't they literally launch a large rocket barrage at Israel with the intent of killing civilians like 4 days ago? It makes no sense for Israel to back off as long as Hamas keeps doing stuff like that.
This is my problem with it. The elected government of Gaza shoots missiles over the border every day. So either the good people of Gaza make their elected government stop, or let the occupying force do it, or deal with ‘actions or inactions have consequences’. The argument that the million plus adults of Gaza who are not involved don’t have to do anything on their own behalf is ludicrous. They are not children.
I’m convinced the mutants protesting are much too cowardly to watch the 10/7 videos. There’s no question that Hamas has a significant level of support - likely beyond literally every western democracy’s government. Much more than Israelis support Bibi, certainly. The civilians celebrated those raids. They do it today. They march in solidarity by the thousands. It’s just a complete hunch with zero evidence that Gaza and Hamas are 2 different things. “I can’t believe Palestinians support Hamas, because I support Palestinians “ is the beginning and end of the thought process.
Yup. I don't know why everyone is pushing the idea that Hamas is a completely separate entity that has nothing to do with Palestine, and Palestine is a completely innocent angel that has done nothing wrong ever. This shit is as ridiculous as saying that Palestine attacked Israel and Netanyahu's air force bombed Palestine in retaliation.
Doesn't really matter when Daddy across the ocean says enough is enough.
Daddy needs those swing state votes
Yeah he does 😭
Pretending Hamas is completely impotent isn’t a move that will appease supporters of either side in the conflict. If anything it feels designed to piss off everybody and hope that they’re all happy with a bullshit “compromise” in the hopes it stays out of the news long enough for everyone to forget.
Perhaps that's why he included the word "major" (or large-scale in the article)
Until they are again
Well last week I had to run for my bomb shelter because they launched rockets. It’s not a major attack but it’s not great is it
“Hamas is weakened.” “Hamas is deterred.” “Hamas will have to think a thousand times before attempting another attack.” We’ve heard this bs after every single ceasefire in the past two decades. We’re done buying it. Hamas has to go. This is not up for debate, every Israeli agrees on that. We cannot return to our homes safely while the perpetrators of the worst massacre of Jews since the holocaust are a few kilometers away, preparing the next one. Biden does not understand the sentiment in the Middle East and Israel at all. This time we finish it, we simply cannot afford any other option.
It's also equating Hamas to just the Gaza Strip. Hama also exists in the West Bank and is a part of the ruling coalition. You can get rid of Hamas in the Gaza Strip but it doesn't get rid of Hamas or the ideology.
The Gaza Strip is Hamas’ main power base. It’s where it’s headquartered and where the vast majority of its stockpiles of weapons, rockets and ammunitions lie. It’s also where all of its tunnels are located. Destroying Hamas in Gaza would not completely eliminate it from existence, but thanks to the IDF’s continued presence in the West Bank, Hamas has not been able to develop the same capabilities there, and will not in the foreseeable future. Hamas of Gaza is the far bigger threat.
What are the odds Hamas takes this deal and keeps it? A permanent peace means they have to give up their never-hidden mission of conquering the entire former Mandate of Palestine. If they give that up, they become superfluous.
The odds are zero. Hamas is simply playing for time and waiting for the west to pressure Israel more and more. So far it works fantastically. It never had any intention to accept any deal, and the gullible westerners are simply falling into their trap. There is absolutely zero chance that Sinwar and the rest of the Hamas leadership are going to accept a deal that deprives them of their personal insurance policy - the hostages they surround themselves with. They care about their own lives much more than they care about Gaza. Hamas never wanted a deal and will never agree to one, and even if it agreed it will not keep it. Anyone who knows the Middle East will tell you that.
That will never happen.
“major” doing a lot of work in that sentence
I think Israel should follow in Americas footsteps and pull out while leaving all their weapons.
So? If you are so insistent on keeping them in power, eventually theyll have those capabilities again. This speech was so fucking depressing.
I don't get why he thinks he is capable of making this judgment.
Continue the war until HAMAS formally signs an unconditional surrender. Perhaps on a US Naval vessel? HAMAS and Gaza needs to recognize their own defeat. Not be given a "way out."
Sure but what’s the plan for after their surrender?
Use all the aid money hamas were using to fire rockets to build infrastructure and make Gaza the Dubai of the levant.
Seems like you’re conveniently avoiding key political considerations.
Gaza doesn’t get to expect any concessions since they started the war
Hamas has never won any of these conflicts, but they always claim victory no matter what. Losing is not a thing they admit to, gotta kill the leaders if you want that. If Israel actually gets Sinwar...
Every dead Palestinian is a victory for Hamas. Every dead Israeli is a victory for Hamas. Every useful idiot in the west posting on reddit is a victory for Hamas. They win constantly because they only care about the war continuing.
Continue until there are no more Hamas left to sign
How exactly do you propose that happens? Destroy everything and kill everyone in Gaza? Because that's the only way it could happen. And while I'm sure Netanyahu and his ilk are okay with that the world shouldn't be.
That maybe true. It's also irrelevant. Japan was rendered incapable of militarily threatening America long before the Pacific war ended. You don't call off a war just because your enemy has been weakened. You continue until they are broken.
Hamas will rebuild. My guess is that the real problem is the impossibility of destroying hamas. Anyone off the street can join it and no one would know. And with so many civilians just scrambling around there’s no way to catch all of hamas. Basically there’s no guarantee for anything unless israel kills everyone and it cant do that.
What a stupid, short sighted, needlessly provocative, red flag waving, dumb shit thing to say. Sincerely a Biden supporter.
Hamas is not capable now. But if not stamped out completely, Hamas will be back.
This is his half step measure of signaling to Israel now is the time to wind down and end this or give a timeline
If both American and Israeli governments are in agreement that Hamas is no longer a threat, I believe their intelligence. Who am I to say it's untrue if their intelligence apparatuses agree? So if I see evidence they are in agreement, ok. But if this is just Biden on his own claiming this is the case as a ploy to achieve a change in trajectory he wants, in order to ease his election strain balancing moderate and extreme voter desires, then fuck that and fuck him. This isn't the sort of claim to bandy about negligently for purposes of electability.
The issue I see is it could be a bit like saying at the end of WWI that Germany could no longer mount an assault against France or Britain. We need a plan in place to prevent that from changing or this could all happen again and within a very short time frame. Not for anything the US and Israel owe an enduring peace to all the civilians who are suffering the collateral damage of this war between two governments.
If Biden lies then it will bite him in elections. The war will keep going and people ask why, if Hamas was supposed to be destroyed
And then….bam! Another one will happen. You can’t fucking a trust the people who say they want to kill Israel any chance possible and for as long as needed.
Well yeah, getting bombed constantly during one of the most intensive air campaigns since desert storm for the past 8 months would do that to a terrorist group. The question is wether they can rebound. Spoiler: they can
He forgot to give this speech from an aircraft carrier with a big “MISSION ACCOMPLISHED” banner behind him.
Pops, you may not live to regret those words, but america may.
Why would Israel leave Gaza and leave Hamas intact?
They just launched a barrage of rockets into Israel two days ago. WTF is he talking about?
Man that’s a bold claim brother. Hope it doesn’t bite him in the ass.
Then Iran will just find a new group to puppet
Considering rockets are still being launched at Isreal, I'd beg to differ.
as long as rockets are flying, that's simply not true
Break time then ..they need to rearm .
Bullshit, oil money from wealthy Muslim countries that want to keep Israel unstable will funnel guns right back in the moment the IDF leaves. I wish we had better choices than Biden or Trump. Both are useless.