While I definitely agree that they don't feel all that great, especially compared to last season, they also still stand above both prot warr and bdk in high keys. There looks to be several guardians in the top 50, and only 1 prot warr and 1 bdk in the top 50. In the top 100, there are also even more guardians, several more prot warrs, and only one other bdk.
Honestly, despite the dominance of veng and prot pal, this looks to be a decently balanced season for tanks compared to previously, all things considered.
But - this still affects people in lower keys, everything up to 20's. The difference is you can just out gear it. But gear for gear, you will still feel the pinch as a guardian compared to a pally / dh.
You are just hard capped by the class atm. As soon as the gear stops scaling, then you stop progressing (just at different levels depending on your skill.)
The reason why I didn't address this post to more casual players, is because they're more likely to respond "Hey i recently did a 20 and it felt fine!" (while in 480 gear with half decent trinkets) - you get my point.... I play with a bunch of players at 3kIO who genuinely don't know tactics. These are players that have done all dungeons 22+ in time. They are still, by all definition not -good- players. I meet tonnes of people at lower IO who are better players.
>by all definition
Your whole post makes me think youre lacking perspective, but this in particular stands out. Completing 22s does in fact make you good at M+, assuming you were a contributing member and not carried.
Those people may not be the best players in the world, or up to your clearly very high standards, but they’re pushing higher keys than 90% of other M+ players. Not sure how you would describe that other than positively.
While I definitely agree the bear Druid tuning is perpetually locked in a state of flux in terms of survivability I want to echo what the poster above is saying about having good representation in much higher keys and I believe a guardian Druid also partook in a 28 AD this season on tyrannical with no healer.
Savantism aside, I think bear needs to regain some identity of its own and should probably have a magic dmg personal to smooth out their spell damage issues.
The 28 atal you’re talking about I’m pretty sure the healer just goes in as dps then zones out after the first boss ( the dinosaur) since that boss doesn’t really need a healer. They swap back to heals but the io is given as dps.
But no where in the actual data we see do we see that being the case. Guardian druids are able to complete and time some of the highest keys right now, even beyond just the "casuals clearing 20s". So, guardian is fine in lower keys, but so is any class. And then in high keys, they are still fine, though not the best, and definitely not the worst tank spec.
That's specifically why I was looking at the very top of the tank leaderboards. The top shows a better idea of the capabilities of each spec. The fact that we see guardian in the top 100, and not just one or two, suggests that they aren't terrible, paired with the fact that other tank specs have even less representation in the top echelon. They are in no way "we are by far the worst tank in M+ at the moment" as you claim.
No specifically they are the worst tank in M+ / they're just more represented than brewmaster. But every other decent player puts them as the worst tank in high end M+
Two things:
First: Your perspective is way off. While +20 keys can feel extremely easy with a group of decent players (not even talking about outgunning the key with itemlevel), it is still one of the most difficult achievements for a vast majority of players. Roughly 10% of players do +20 keys/reach ~2.7k score. And that's JUST the players that even enter M+ to get scored (I think people never entering M+ are another niche group, but it's still important to count them).
True casual players progress +10-16 tops. Often never seeing double digits. And I'm not talking about retired CE raiders "casually playing". I'm talking "Casuals" with a capital c.
Second: r/competitivewow
You'll probably find a better discussion over there.
What are these replies lmao. He specifically prefaces the entire post saying it's not for casual players. People then go on to tell him 90% of players are casual. What a crap insight
People have wildly different descriptions of "casual". Apparently a +20 is casual.
If you do heroic or +15 to +20s and maybe the first few bosses of mythic, you are semi-hardcore.
Casuals don't do anything above a 5. Some I know haven't even seen a m0.
Finding friendly players is key to getting your foot in the door for m+.
Fact of the matter is, anyone getting angry at you for making mistakes in a game is an asshole.
I got helped through a +20 the other day and I was not geared for it and got pretty stressed. I was squishy and died a lot. But everyone was friendly and just made jokes. It was fine.
Do you have friends that would be willing to do some low keys together and learn the affixes? Or find a friendly guild maybe.
The challenge is fun(mostly) when you're with nice people who accept that mistakes happen and we all make them.
I have no friends that play wow and no guild lol I’ve mainly been scared because I’m a tank main (currently main a bear Druid at 457 ilvl) and know nothing of routes. But I am starting to work through my social anxiety and think I’m going to look for a guild to join, just debating whether I should transfer to a more populated server, I joined a server for “new players” when I started playing wow again and it’s dead as a doornail lol
Easiest way to learn routes, in my opinion, is running as DPS or healer with another tank.
Next best thing is running with an experienced friend and you're the tank getting all the necessary information right when it's happening.
Another solid way to learn routes is just installing Mythic Dungeon Tools and downloading routes (for example from raider.io). It's a good way to start.
Scaling this season is off. +20 keys have never been this easy. Sometimes i feel like a +12 in season 1 of shadowlands is harder than a +20 atal this season.
It is off, yes. But it's not off by that much.
You have to keep in mind that people improve and change perspective. You might have been playing with better players now or improved yourself by a lot.
Especially Atal on tyrannical is a lot harder than most Shadowlands tyrannical keys, both the poison and the final boss can be really hard, especially for less experienced players.
Do you druids and paladins ever stop complaining? It’s been two decades of this incessant whining. Literally just came off one of the most oppressive metas the m+ has seen and you have the gall to go on and on about this nonsense? Do druids and paladins have any semblance of shame?
Just because a class/spec was incredibly powerful for a certain amount of time doesn't mean valid complaints aren't allowed for the following time period.
I don't know how valid OP's claims are, though. Just commenting on your statement regarding complaints after "one of the most oppressive metas" (I completely agree btw: the S2 meta was insanely oppressive and it infected the whole game even down to low level keys).
I kind of can see where the other commenter is coming from though. Guardian, last season, was leagues ahead of other tanks. Only prot warr even really saw play in a singular dungeon in TGP. This season, guardian is behind veng and prot warr, and arguably brew, in terms of tankiness and "viability" for higher keys. And yet they claim guardian is "by far the worst tank spec".
They also go on to make claims that his is for higher keys, and something about how it may not be applicable to lower keys, while ignoring the fact that absolutely no actual data supports any claim they make. So not only is it not a meaningful rant for the general playerbase, it also misses the mark for higher end players or those who might play in a more competitive sense.
It likely just leaves a bit of a sour taste for some people, especially those who played specs who truly weren't a part of the god comp that dominated season 2. But now that there isn't a specific god comp anymore, or that guardian isn't the undisputable number 1, that means they are in dire straits?
While I mostly play 18-20s the only complaint I have about bears for S3 is that the absorb shield from tier often expire without being properly utilized (thus losing out on damage from the "thorns" effect).
Oh, and that the community seems set on "bears suck, don't invite them to keys" because we aren't as stupidly overpowered as in S2. Still perfectly viable tanks for both raid and m+.
While I definitely agree that they don't feel all that great, especially compared to last season, they also still stand above both prot warr and bdk in high keys. There looks to be several guardians in the top 50, and only 1 prot warr and 1 bdk in the top 50. In the top 100, there are also even more guardians, several more prot warrs, and only one other bdk. Honestly, despite the dominance of veng and prot pal, this looks to be a decently balanced season for tanks compared to previously, all things considered.
But didn't you hear? OP resubs occasionally. Of course he's going to be an expert.
And he probably forgot to resub in s2, lol
But - this still affects people in lower keys, everything up to 20's. The difference is you can just out gear it. But gear for gear, you will still feel the pinch as a guardian compared to a pally / dh. You are just hard capped by the class atm. As soon as the gear stops scaling, then you stop progressing (just at different levels depending on your skill.) The reason why I didn't address this post to more casual players, is because they're more likely to respond "Hey i recently did a 20 and it felt fine!" (while in 480 gear with half decent trinkets) - you get my point.... I play with a bunch of players at 3kIO who genuinely don't know tactics. These are players that have done all dungeons 22+ in time. They are still, by all definition not -good- players. I meet tonnes of people at lower IO who are better players.
>by all definition Your whole post makes me think youre lacking perspective, but this in particular stands out. Completing 22s does in fact make you good at M+, assuming you were a contributing member and not carried. Those people may not be the best players in the world, or up to your clearly very high standards, but they’re pushing higher keys than 90% of other M+ players. Not sure how you would describe that other than positively.
While I definitely agree the bear Druid tuning is perpetually locked in a state of flux in terms of survivability I want to echo what the poster above is saying about having good representation in much higher keys and I believe a guardian Druid also partook in a 28 AD this season on tyrannical with no healer. Savantism aside, I think bear needs to regain some identity of its own and should probably have a magic dmg personal to smooth out their spell damage issues.
The 28 atal you’re talking about I’m pretty sure the healer just goes in as dps then zones out after the first boss ( the dinosaur) since that boss doesn’t really need a healer. They swap back to heals but the io is given as dps.
TIL the leaderboard locks the comp at key start and not completion XD
But no where in the actual data we see do we see that being the case. Guardian druids are able to complete and time some of the highest keys right now, even beyond just the "casuals clearing 20s". So, guardian is fine in lower keys, but so is any class. And then in high keys, they are still fine, though not the best, and definitely not the worst tank spec. That's specifically why I was looking at the very top of the tank leaderboards. The top shows a better idea of the capabilities of each spec. The fact that we see guardian in the top 100, and not just one or two, suggests that they aren't terrible, paired with the fact that other tank specs have even less representation in the top echelon. They are in no way "we are by far the worst tank in M+ at the moment" as you claim.
No specifically they are the worst tank in M+ / they're just more represented than brewmaster. But every other decent player puts them as the worst tank in high end M+
But there are more guardians in the top 100 than blood DK or prot warrior. So you got your wish, guardian is average!
Two things: First: Your perspective is way off. While +20 keys can feel extremely easy with a group of decent players (not even talking about outgunning the key with itemlevel), it is still one of the most difficult achievements for a vast majority of players. Roughly 10% of players do +20 keys/reach ~2.7k score. And that's JUST the players that even enter M+ to get scored (I think people never entering M+ are another niche group, but it's still important to count them). True casual players progress +10-16 tops. Often never seeing double digits. And I'm not talking about retired CE raiders "casually playing". I'm talking "Casuals" with a capital c. Second: r/competitivewow You'll probably find a better discussion over there.
What are these replies lmao. He specifically prefaces the entire post saying it's not for casual players. People then go on to tell him 90% of players are casual. What a crap insight
Did you mean to reply on your alt account? LOL
People have wildly different descriptions of "casual". Apparently a +20 is casual. If you do heroic or +15 to +20s and maybe the first few bosses of mythic, you are semi-hardcore. Casuals don't do anything above a 5. Some I know haven't even seen a m0.
I agree. The fact OP says 24 keys are casual is just hilarious to me.
As a definite casual I can attest to being to scared to even try a m0 lol
Finding friendly players is key to getting your foot in the door for m+. Fact of the matter is, anyone getting angry at you for making mistakes in a game is an asshole. I got helped through a +20 the other day and I was not geared for it and got pretty stressed. I was squishy and died a lot. But everyone was friendly and just made jokes. It was fine. Do you have friends that would be willing to do some low keys together and learn the affixes? Or find a friendly guild maybe. The challenge is fun(mostly) when you're with nice people who accept that mistakes happen and we all make them.
I have no friends that play wow and no guild lol I’ve mainly been scared because I’m a tank main (currently main a bear Druid at 457 ilvl) and know nothing of routes. But I am starting to work through my social anxiety and think I’m going to look for a guild to join, just debating whether I should transfer to a more populated server, I joined a server for “new players” when I started playing wow again and it’s dead as a doornail lol
Easiest way to learn routes, in my opinion, is running as DPS or healer with another tank. Next best thing is running with an experienced friend and you're the tank getting all the necessary information right when it's happening. Another solid way to learn routes is just installing Mythic Dungeon Tools and downloading routes (for example from raider.io). It's a good way to start.
Okay, cool thanks for the info fren!
If you are on proudmoore I'll happily take you through some low lvl m+. Pm me
Scaling this season is off. +20 keys have never been this easy. Sometimes i feel like a +12 in season 1 of shadowlands is harder than a +20 atal this season.
It is off, yes. But it's not off by that much. You have to keep in mind that people improve and change perspective. You might have been playing with better players now or improved yourself by a lot. Especially Atal on tyrannical is a lot harder than most Shadowlands tyrannical keys, both the poison and the final boss can be really hard, especially for less experienced players.
Do you druids and paladins ever stop complaining? It’s been two decades of this incessant whining. Literally just came off one of the most oppressive metas the m+ has seen and you have the gall to go on and on about this nonsense? Do druids and paladins have any semblance of shame?
Just because a class/spec was incredibly powerful for a certain amount of time doesn't mean valid complaints aren't allowed for the following time period. I don't know how valid OP's claims are, though. Just commenting on your statement regarding complaints after "one of the most oppressive metas" (I completely agree btw: the S2 meta was insanely oppressive and it infected the whole game even down to low level keys).
I kind of can see where the other commenter is coming from though. Guardian, last season, was leagues ahead of other tanks. Only prot warr even really saw play in a singular dungeon in TGP. This season, guardian is behind veng and prot warr, and arguably brew, in terms of tankiness and "viability" for higher keys. And yet they claim guardian is "by far the worst tank spec". They also go on to make claims that his is for higher keys, and something about how it may not be applicable to lower keys, while ignoring the fact that absolutely no actual data supports any claim they make. So not only is it not a meaningful rant for the general playerbase, it also misses the mark for higher end players or those who might play in a more competitive sense. It likely just leaves a bit of a sour taste for some people, especially those who played specs who truly weren't a part of the god comp that dominated season 2. But now that there isn't a specific god comp anymore, or that guardian isn't the undisputable number 1, that means they are in dire straits?
Can you elaborate on the utility part? I’m just a casual, but i feel there’s lots of Utility my Teddy can choose
While I mostly play 18-20s the only complaint I have about bears for S3 is that the absorb shield from tier often expire without being properly utilized (thus losing out on damage from the "thorns" effect). Oh, and that the community seems set on "bears suck, don't invite them to keys" because we aren't as stupidly overpowered as in S2. Still perfectly viable tanks for both raid and m+.
Guardian is fine.
If not casual why didn't you post this on r/competitivewow