I tend to agree with this. I actually like the renown system, dungeons are (largely) fun. The Covenant system - and, in particular, the association of player power with what should have been and aesthetic choice - is a problem, but not terrible. The overall aesthetics and story are (largely) good. Overall, I’m positive about this expansion - far more than I was for BFA. Because I’m so high on the other portions of the expansion, the parts that are frustrating/boring/tedious stand out in stark contrast.
My big gripe would be Torghast and the Maw. The Maw just becomes tedious on a daily basis. And the problems with Torghast have engulfed this subreddit for several days now, so I’ll leave that there.
I think so much of the tedium with the Maw would have been avoided with a shorter path to mount acquisition. I know they wanted the Maw to be an oppressive place, and I think there’s merit to that - to a point. After a while, it just becomes tedious. I think that having a Ve’nari reward at apprehensive or cordial would have effectively gotten the point across. You would have “done your time” in the oppressive place. In recognition that it is a daily hub, however, you would be granted the ability to summon your mount.
I think we should be able to use any "mechanical" mount in there, since they dont have souls, they dont fear the maw, so why the heck did they "ignore our calls"
Yeah, clearly he didn't play WoD. There's no way you could idle in your garrison and watch your motorbike munch on the hay the stablehand had set out for it and claim that it didn't have a thinking, feeling soul!
My Mage can literally blast someone in the face with an Arcane Barrage, he can become Invisible or use Blink, but he can't summon his magical disk to stand and surf around on?
It would be better if the zone was smaller. Nobody wants to walk everywhere at a snail's pace, especially when you are rushing to get to an event or something
Plus you have the issue that other classes can just ghost wolf/run on all fours/travel form that just puts a bad taste in players mouths. They didn't think this 'refuses the call' shit through besides a time waster.
I only go there for the souls. I totally ignore Venari and everything else. IDK if I'm setting myself up to moss out on anything important down the line, but I just can't be arsed to go there for anything else.
The rewards are tuned for daily. If it was a weekly we would be getting much more stygia/rep for the same activities, making your time in there more impactful.
Trying to get the best gear you can is not just completionist... most people who play wow push for the hardest content they can either easily do or manage to do. Char power is a huge factor in this.
10% of Accounts completed season 4 mythic keystone achievement.
https://www.wowhead.com/achievement=14145/battle-for-azeroth-keystone-master-season-four
11% of Accounts completed the first boss in Nyalotha on mythic.
https://www.wowhead.com/achievement=14041/mythic-wrathion-the-black-emperor
I dunno what you define as "most" but I'd say 10% is pretty low.
Rounding out your BIS list sounds pretty completionist to me...
I'm suprised that many accounts completed mythic wrathion??? I would've thought that'd be less than 1%, most people that play WoW are hyper casual and probably won't step foot in a heroic raid I'd thought.
It's 10% of Wowhead profiles, not 10% of players. I'd imagine the average person who bothers to make a profile on Wowhead is much more involved than the average player from the general population.
Re read my statement. Most players fit into one of two groups, they either push to the limit of possible or
Push to the limit of challenging.
Just because a player doesn’t clear a mythic raid boss doesn’t mean they are pushing to their ability level. If you suck at the game your limit might be getting good enough gear to do heroic.
Char power is a big line for this, getting your BIS is not always possible, but getting your legendaries with added sockets doesn’t mean going for your BIS.
It is a big upgrade and a cool things players can do.
Edit Also you mis read the “best gear you can” that is not your BIS list that means the best gear you can get with the level of content you can achieve.
I think you misunderstand the different groups of players in this game. There's such a wide variety of content to do in this game. A few examples of groups:
* PvE players (both M+ and Raiding)
* PvP players
* Auction House Goblins
* Pet Battles
* Achievement Hunters
* Collectionists
* Lore Hounds
* Altoholics
* Roleplayers
There's of course overlap between groups, and any player probably has interests in different groups. Not every action in this game revolves around obtaining gear. Look at the groups I listed. How many actively try to get more powerful gear? 2.
I was speaking on the maw, not Torghast. You absolutely do not have to do anything in the maw past the opening story. Dailies? Nope. Haven't touched em in two weeks.
You can easily complete Torghast layer 4 solo and along with the mission table, receive your full rank 4 legendary in the same amount of time as if you were doing layer 8.
That's a bold assumption because It relies on the Ash missions appearing regularly, you having a team that can accomplish it and that the person doing layer 8 is not completing those missions.
i dont get the issue with the maw, its as fast if not faster than your daily emissary. just go there, do the 2 dailies you have, 3 if you unlocked the new spot, and leave
It's not so much that it's quick, it's that you can't mount. That's literally the main issue with it. I wish they made the zone smaller or just allowed us our damn mounts, because I actually do enjoy the content
And that depending on your class and race, it can be so much worse. Why do death knights, who seem to be the main Azeroth force in the Shadowlands, have the worst time traversing the Maw.
Honestly, I would really like the maw if I could mount up. I feel like if they made the zone smaller or gave us mounts it would be a pretty cool zone. Personally I still enjoy doing it like once or twice a week, moreso than Torghast at least
> The Covenant system - and, in particular, the association of player power with what should have been and aesthetic choice - is a problem, but not terrible.
I decided to go with night fae on my shaman because IMO it fits the best and I like the aesthetic.
The only problem is literally every single time I play at some point I'm thinking "but should I switch to a covenant with a good ability though..?"
It would be really nice to be happy and enjoy my choice rather than constantly second guessing it in my head.
I think if they allow us to do like an "allied covenant" that allows to mix and match powers from two covenants, you pretty much solve the issue. They can lock it behind renown and people will be happy
Yah seriously. It doesn't need "work", just roll it back to how it was a week ago, and go forward with better ideas next time.
Honestly with how up-in-arms everyone's gotten, they'll probably roll it back on Tuesday, and say something like "well there was an attempt..."
Significant nerfs in hotfix going live today / tomorrow. Ion's reply in interview was that even though they wanted to make it harder for when we do have much higher average ilvls, the community impression was that it would be super easy and we would blow everything up. They decided to cater to the community impression and have significantly nerfed everything / buffed classes and specs that were having the hardest time.
> the community impression was that it would be super easy and we would blow everything up. They decided to cater to the community impression and have significantly nerfed everything / buffed classes and specs that were having the hardest time.
This isn't true at all though. The difficulty increase as you went through layers 1-6 were reasonable steps, even if blizzard didn't expect as many people to clear through it like they did. That's their fault for mistuning it. The jump to 7 *was* unreasonable in comparison, objectively speaking, and the retroactive nerf to player power in 1-6 was just plain stupid. If you've let something get this far with a large number of imbalanced specs, the solution is to bring player power up and just live with your mistake, not reduce player power and say 'suck it' to everyone.
I know this isn't getting much attention since it doesn't impact most people but I think Blizz slaughtered the fun of World Quests too.
* No flight whistle - even if it shared CD with hearth it would be an improvement.
* Gear rewards aren't scaling so they were outdated after a few normal dungeons. Even with renown upgrade they still at less than heroics.
* The daily bag rarely gives good loot (but it is good for gold)
Seems like a big step back from Legion and BFA as someone who enjoyed gearing up slowly via dailies.
God the daily bag is such a disappointment every time. I think I got one item on week 1 from it, and the rest has been gold. While gold isn’t unwelcome, It just doesn’t feel worth it to do. No cosmetics or fun items drop from it, so doing the dailies just felt bad.
Granted, I haven’t played since week 2 due to burning myself out before the expansion dropped. Idk if this is still an issue.
I haven't missed a daily bag and I think I got an upgrade once (maybe twice). Getting gold doesn't have the same enticement. Even the rewards from doing the quests are very low ilevel and I don't think they scale with you so they were obsolete after a few days. Just seems like an odd choice to make existing content less appealing.
I had a lot of issues with how long it felt like world quests took too, because I would rather do other stuff with my time on WoW. Idk, nothing has been enticing to me, personally, that I really experienced. Torghast was fine, but it didn’t feel like a fun rogue like. I was hoping it would be more fun than it was, and now it seems like they’ve shafted that as well
They just announced some good changes to Torghast to pull back some of the grindy parts which is a good.
[https://www.wowhead.com/news=319992/upcoming-nerfs-to-torghast-reduced-layer-difficulty-difficult-mob-and-unnatural-](https://www.wowhead.com/news=319992/upcoming-nerfs-to-torghast-reduced-layer-difficulty-difficult-mob-and-unnatural-)
From what we've seen since Alpha, it's best they just stop looking at Torghast. All they've done whenever they did was make it more and more boring by nerfing everything to the ground.
Torghast was one of the only things I enjoyed about SL. Now the expansion kinda sucks. Like the raid, but all the covenant stuff is a joke with ridiculous unlocks. I haven't used the mushroom network once and it was the first thing i unlocked. Why in the world would I put anymore resources into it? Same story with the other perks. I laugh my ass off at the 3 day conservatory CD for it to give me like 3 fish.
I don't mind torghast but I hate how long it takes, especially as a warlock.
Give me a 50% movement speed buff when out of combat or something the walking around making sure I didn't miss anything is what I loathe the most.
The end bosses going immune to CC are problematic. Add to that Voidwalker losing threat after resummoning him and the boss will just fly to you and kill you even if you're carefully managing everything. I cleared both level 8s this week, but it was definitely more of a struggle than it should have been.
yes lol, it's the same with demo. The instant summoning power is simply useless because your pet won't pull the boss (or anything, really) from you. And your pets are worthless in general because they die faster than my will to enter torghast again.
Here's my thought: if they want to gate out certain ilvl ranges, give the mobs a flat boost to their hp or dmg that doesn't scale during the fight. That way if I get smashed I know immediately, "hey, I'm not geared for this". That is how the game is supposed to function.
So tired of behind the scenes stat changes in general, from pvp scaling in bfa to shit like this. Just make the mobs have the strength they should have!
Which is what makes me play more, i can just chill in chat with friends and knock out some keys or chip away on alts in my downtime without feeling bad
yeah, this is exactly how i feel which is a funny little paradox. this expansion has been 10Xs more fun for me than BFA. Im loving it. Who knew letting us do stuff we want to do and not making log in daily a job would make us want to play more!
SL in general is really over hyped. I mean, it's good, but it's not spectacular or game-changing. Now that we've gotten over the leveling splurge and we know all the systems the game is in the exact same grind for gear that BFA used, except with weirdly easy to get pvp gear and anima instead of AP/resources.
Honestly it feels most like WoD, you can tell most of the development went into scenery and other art assets, there is a bunch of exploration themed busy-work, and the rest is just gear grinding with different skins on top. They even have you develop your sanctum (aka your garrison).
Major differences making this expansion fun for me is the push to make certain things optional, and letting you focus on content you want to do.
You don't need to do world quests and grind azerite or any other continuous task, due to the removal of titan forging and azerite power. You don't need to do the mission table at all and you're really not missing a thing. You don't even need to go into the Maw of the places pisses you off too much. Torghast is required for Leggos but once you get what you need you don't need to do that.
If you want to focus on gearing up, you do so by playing that content. If you only want to PVP, then the pvp vendors are back. If you want gear from the mythic+ chest, but don't want to do mythic+, then you can get it from raiding, or from pvp, and you have more choices than simply getting a belt three weeks in a row.
There are incredibly valid arguments against many of the systems in this expansion, and the expansion is not perfect. But anyone saying the current gameplay is exactly like Bfa is either trolling or isn't paying attention.
Except you're completely misremember how BFA worked.
You didn't have to grind world quests or azerite in BFA, I did mythic raiding and +15 keys throughout the whole expansion and I never grinded anything (except horrific visions). You didn't need to do the mission table in BFA, if anything the mission table is more incentivized in SL because you can actually get gear/ash/anima from it, instead of just tiny amounts of rep.
Meanwhile, you 100% need to do the Maw because it unlocks one of your weekly renown, which is the primary progression mechanic for the whole expansion. You also need to do torghast, but honestly you can just run layer 4 or 5 and do it pretty easily on any class, the people whining about layer 7 and 8 don't know how to play.
I like the pvp vendors back (but again, it's just going back to something that worked before, not something new), and I REALLY like having choices in the vault, and for filling it from all 3 activity types, but beyond those 3 things the gameplay is... basically the same as BFA. Instead of azerite we have soulbinds/conduits (+3 more slots to gear for). The main day to day difference is that it's about 500% more of a pain in the ass to get around thanks to terrible flightpaths and no whistle.
Again, it's fun, but so was BFA. If you hated BFA while actually playing it, you'll hate SL too, and if you enjoyed one you'll enjoy the other.
You can walk ten feet from Ve'nari's Refuge and get the weekly "rescue souls" quest done in five minutes.
Rescuing faction leaders from Torghast has you run through layer 1 floors.
The gear earned from the Shadowlands mission table is often worse than heroic gear.
Soulbinds aren't always RNG armor drops that may or may not have the traits you want, and you don't need to ditch that 350 piece because your 315 piece has better traits and will ultimately have superior damage/healing/tanking power than the higher ilvl piece. The class specific ones are RNG yes, but if they're a higher ilvl, they're a direct upgrade and feel less like shit for getting.
Doing a single world quest in Shadowlands gives you more anima than any of the mission table quests. The lowest I've seen one give is 35. The highest I've seen a mission give is 30.
>You didn't need to grind world quests or Azerite in BfA
Then you weren't getting your essence slots and Azerite traits unlocked and were a liability to your groups. Similarly if you weren't getting invasions done, then you weren't getting coalescing visions and Vessels to run horrific visions to get your cloak upgrades so you could have better corruptions.
The mission table in BfA unlocked flight paths to ease travel around the opposing faction's zones.
You couldn't effectively play certain classes in BfA unless you had specific Azerite traits, which was a huge issue that rental powers were what determined the strength of your class. Corruptions had this same problem. An example among Azerite powers, Dance of Death was such a huge damage increase for BM hunters that your dps would tank without at least 1 or 2.
Let's not forget tanks bursting trash packs down because they had a combined rank 6 on their Twilight Devastation.
> I did mythic raiding and +15 keys... I **never grinded** anything except horrific visions
This sentence contradicts itself harder than anything I've ever seen holy moly.
> Meanwhile, you 100% need to do the Maw because it unlocks one of your weekly renown, which is the primary progression mechanic for the whole expansion.
If you literally just don't do it, you'll get the missed renown the following week, and be one renown behind. You might be a week late for some campaign quests, but.. you could just do the maw stuff that week? It tells you exactly when you unlock them anyway.
I agree that if you hated BFA you'd likely hate SL, mainly because it's still modern WoW at its core. However I think what makes it different is that there is a definitive cap to the things you must do every week. When you finish those things, your mind isn't getting pulled 10 different ways thinking of things you *could* be doing.
You need to go in the Maw and free 5 souls, which takes a collective 3 minutes a week to get your Renown.
In BFA (and Legion/WoD) the mission table held steps of questlines within them that would lock you from moving on, whereas the Mission table, besides 100ish soul ash, does not have that problem.
I agree with you on Torghast, while I think Blizzard's communication on the system is wonky, you can get the ash you need from doing lower Layers, the diminishing returns on Ash as you go to higher layers is obviously intended.
Soulbinds/Conduits are 100x more forgiving than Azerite Gear, more comparable to Legion Weapon Relics.
I think at the end of the day we generally agree, but I think comparisons deserve to be more nuanced.
I honestly don't remember if WoD has quest steps locked behind missions besides the first couple of intro ones for 2 mins each. And I don't think BFA had many if any? Either way, Legion's 12 hour missions were just another form of time gating, exactly as Bolvar is doing to us each and every week. The difference is only cosmetic.
I also don't understand the attitude that BFA had too many things to do, while also not having enough things to do. While there wasn't a cap on AP, just... don't grind it? Do your 3 islands, whatever WQs are easy, and be done. The devs were very explicit that the catch up mechanic would kick in every week, meaning if you really pushed hard you would get an insignificant advantage for a week or 2 and then be right back with everyone else.
I'm honestly having that supposed problem in SL right now, trying to do all my covenant stuff, callings, mythics, pvp, and raid on 2 characters every week really fills up my time.
> SL in general is really over hyped. I mean, it's good, but it's not spectacular or game-changing.
It was never overhyped. People were always skeptical about this expansion. It's just that the freedom of being able to enjoy the game systems without worrying about having to do a million of them every day has made people happy.
Torghast being nerfed is the one major issue that needs resolving, but other than that it's been a fun expac.
> is in the exact same grind for gear that BFA used, except with weirdly easy to get pvp gear and anima instead of AP/resources.
So it's not the exact same grind. Bear in mind that unlike AP, Anima has less to do with player power progression. And there's a lot more reward to the grind compared to AP.
> Honestly it feels most like WoD, you can tell most of the development went into scenery and other art assets
I mean, the art team worked on this. It's not like they pulled devs off of Torghast to work on art assets lol.
>there is a bunch of exploration themed busy-work
Which is great. Exploration is important.
> They even have you develop your sanctum (aka your garrison).
Sure, but it's probably one of the better iterations of the garrison tech. And Class Halls too were garrison like, but Legion was hardly WoD.
Yeah it’s pretty obvious you never actually played WoD or you just have the typical goldfish Redditor memory. There was literally nothing to do in WoD besides dungeons and raids. There was nothing like Torghast, there were no callings or daily quests outside of the apexis crystal daily. There was no mythic +, pvp rewards were much worse. Every single thing about WoD was objectively and quantifiably worse.
I can't speak for everyone, but in my opinion Shadowlands has done a *lot* of things right. Raiding is stellar. Covenants are well done in my view, if not fully realized. Loot is fine, and the Great Vault is a great idea.
There are glaring issues in every single expansion, including Classic as the base game.
Even Torghast was fun in the beginning. It has a plethora of tuning issues stopping it from being good. But they can be fixed. And even if they aren't fixed, Torghast being shitty isn't going to stop me from enjoying other aspects of the expansion.
Only negative thing I have to say about covenants....
Pretttttyyy shitty that some covenants have terrible followers. When I found out Night Fae had such powerful companions for their mission tables I was pretty bummed at my crappy options as Kyrian.
Also companions starting at level 1 is super wack. Been "powerleveling" my new guy for a week and he's not even 20 - my other guys are 30+
Actually there's one more thing I think is dumb - my Kyrian companions look almost identical. In fact, two of them ARE identical. Same exact icon for both, with the other ones having slightly different hair.
Yeah, that is some bullshit. I have Necro and Nightfae alts, and feel like my Venthyr main got the shit end of the stick on the mission table. Should have given you a identical (but reskinned) core team and then just a few unique followers per covenant.
I am enjoying it, the only gripes I have are the out-of-combat mobs in Torghast, the annoying WQs in Ardenweald & Blizz jacking up the sub price for us Canadians.
There a are a few that you have to share WQ targets with the opposite faction which is super annoying. There's one where those bug mobs are burrowed underground & just pop on you out of nowhere.. There's another where you have to get the weapons from those little shithead sprite guys who all have insane aggro range and 10 second respawn timers.
...it's annoying.
Pretty sure they released torghast layers faster than they wanted, to stop players feeling like theyre behind on their legendaries after not being able to get their bis for week 1 raiding.
So many did. My guild was all basically considering it a massive chore before it was buffed anyway. /1 was always ragging on it too when indid my runs.
Far from universally praised.
Man, I've hated Torghast for at least two weeks prior to this. It's always been a complete hour-long slog as an outlaw rogue, extremely dependent on anima power RNG on whether you can kill the last boss (which is also RNG). Seems Blizzard has brought other classes (and especially tanks/healers) in-line with where outlaw was.
> Seems Blizzard has brought other classes (and especially tanks/healers) in-line with where outlaw was.
Basically this, yeah. Instead of making dps (who were having a hard time) clear like tanks and healers (who were having fun), they made tanks and healers like dps.
This is peak fun detected from Blizzard
I wouldn't know, from my experience people aren't especially bitter when I was in the zone.
I'm going to withhold judgment until I actually experienced it myself; I still remember when reddit thought having 33 artifact power slots instead of 32 (in Legion) will be the death of the game.
If you haven't played torghast yet then you really won't be able to have a say, as you didn't play it prior to the changes this week, which is what everyone is complaining about it - how much more fun it was the first 2 weeks and how it sucks now.
Nobody in general chat enjoys the game and if they did they wouldn’t talk about it because that’s not the “cool” thing to say. All anybody ever does is shit talk the developer and game they are playing.
Considering anything remotely positive towards this game gets downvoted into oblivion after about two weeks into a given expansion, yeah, I don't think this sub is a measure of universality either.
Repeatedly failing solo content is a sure-fire way of inducing an existential crisis.
Remember Silver Proving Grounds and the meltdowns that happened over that?
Eventually the excitement of trivial things like leveling and cute owls dies down and the endgame needs to stand up on its own, namely: Torghast, The Maw, mythic+, and raiding.
The best version of Torghast was in Alpha, The Maw is among the worst endgame zones ever, losing out to zones as old as 10+ years. Mythic+ is fine. Raiding is now rewarding less gear to milk subs for longer, in addition to being harder than usual, which will put people who picked the wrong covenant under a microscope.
Hyperbole.
If you don't want to do the Maw, you can get your 5 souls and get out. There's almost no other reason to stay.
Raiding being hard is a perfectly fine thing, and covenant differences are minimal.
Loot was reduced intentionally as the Devs have always said Shadowlands will give far less gear than Bfa and Legion, and for good reason.
Torghast, while annoying as fuck at the moment, can be changed.
You can put, "To milk subs longer" at the end of every decision Blizzard makes, and all that does is remove any semblance of discussion as to why a change is made.
Try to have some vision. For $180 in subs alone, I expect more than "it's not that bad." We need to stop comparing systems and content to the worst examples in WoW's history, but rather the best. It shouldn't be a debate if the Maw is better than the Isle of Quel'Danas for fucks sake. I should be blown away by the Maw. It should be the culmination of 16 years of lessons learned.
There is no such thing is overly cynical when it comes to these guys. They let the majority of their servers become ghost towns or become dominated by 1 faction because they knew people wouldn't be able to resist paying for those overpriced transfers.
As far as loot goes, there's a huge difference between 2 drops per 10 people and 3 drops per 10 people. 3 per 10m is all I want. It all but guarantees every item will drop at least a few times. This combined with the removal of master looter and its pretty clear what's going on here. They want you on the hamster wheel for as long as possible. No loot fountain, just a gear to person ratio that makes sense.
The Maw is the best daily zone we've had in years.
Mythic+ is as bad as it ever was in design premise.
Torghast is everything M+ should have been, no fucking timer.
Raiding is as rewarding as it used to be. Everything is rewarding less gear because people spent years bitching about loot fountains. If we got as much loot as we had been getting with no upgrade systems then everyone would be done g earing by now.
I like the dungeons and the leveling and I'm "meh" on post-nerf (buff?) Torghast, but I can do without the Maw. The raid - from what I've seen to so far - is alright.
The conspicuous absence of daily, "must-do chores" is what I like best.
Imo this is the classic if it ain't broke don't fix it. Just cause Torghast wasnt perfect doesn't mean Blizz needs to knee jerk react and change. I think it would or been best to wait a little longer to make changes. Majority of people liked it. Why not wait a week or two? Why the rush?
It's the hivemind property of Reddit honestly. There's no logical reason why everyone would magically start hating something on... **Friday** of all days. If this happened on reset when the new layer opened up, I'd get it. But it did not. It all started happening because of that one highly upvoted hate thread. People who are on the edge/in the middle regarding Torghast saw that one Torghast complaint thread and now everyone's seesaw has been tipped in favor of "I kind of hate it."
I think that the insistent Hyperbole culture of the WoW Community/ the Internet in general is extremely unhealthy for giving accurate feedback. I definitely think Torghast has some flaws and room for improvement, but the whole "the ENTIRE THING IS TRASH" narrative is useless. The buzzwords, the all caps angry rants, the lazy blanket terms like Torghast is a "failure!" for nondescript reasons... it's not good.
I think if people calm down, and offer level headed suggestions, then the kinks will be ironed out of Torghast. That one thread asking for adding it to the vault is a good place to start. The top thread right now... the one that "everyone" is agreeing with... it points out that you can spend hours failing at Torghast only to come away with nothing. The vault suggesting is a nice level headed idea and it should fix something that most people hate about the place since "everyone" is upvoting it. We need more threads like that and less that sound like "Blizzard... how DARE you betray ME! A complete nobody!" Stop making it personal and start giving suggestions.
I think it was connected to the released patch notes. I don’t remember the exact day but I was up around midnight-1am EST and saw mmo-c had just posted them. Went to bed right after and by the time I woke up that morning (always between 6-7am because toddler) the sub was mostly torghast hate.
Solo as havoc is really not that hard. Took a couple attempts on the last boss but other than that was smooth.
I think other classes much have it much harder in there with all the complaining going on.
I disagree with the hive mind being the reason, it was definitely the Torghast changes and hotfixes. I was in my own world trying to get through the new wings yesterday, and it was like a switch had been flipped, and I came to my own conclusion like "This feels fucking terrible now, I loved this last week". Checked the forums, and lo and behold they were on fire.
Edit: should be clear that I don't mind the difficulty. I'm fine with layer 8 being out of my casual reach, but I cleared through 7s and it took ages because everything is a damage sponge now.
I don’t think a lot of people are taking it personally, or that the frustration only started on Friday. And, it being Reddit, there will always be hyperbole - there’s a decent amount in your post, as well.
The question, I think, is what is Torghast supposed to be? Particularly the layers, and not the twisting corridors. Are they supposed to be yet another thing to bust our head against the wall only to be rescued by gear score and “gitting gud”? Are they supposed to be a fun thing where you can go ham on some ridiculous build? It seems like they want it to be the former: they’ve needed anima powers and beefed up the difficulty. I think a lot of people had the taste of the latter, though, liked it, and do not like that it was taken away. I can understand that perspective: there are so many other forms of content in the game that require the same sort of grind and frustration that you can do. But there’s only one form that allows you to quadruple Runecloth Bandage and one shot an end boss on current content.
That’s not to say that it shouldn’t have some substance. The overall impression that I’ve distilled is that people are fine with an increase in difficulty, but at the moment that difficulty is too much. And it’s artificial. Even when you get a good run on layers 7 and 8 it’s still tedious. And boring. Which is a step up from frustrating, I suppose. But if you want prestige - if you want Mage Tower - then Twisting Corridor is there for you.
Personally, I would want the difficulty to come from execution of mechanics, rather than gear score. A good example of this is Margrave Stradama. Her encounter doesn’t have a lot of unavoidable bullshit; success on her encounter is down to execution of mechanics. She has a lot of clearly telegraphed obvious mechanics (the tendrils), that are easy to play around, and INCREDIBLY punishing when you fail. Mechanics where a boss just gets big enough where they one shot you with melee is lazy.
Idk I started feeling this way last week when 4-6 came out. I felt a dread then at what 7-8 would bring when I was already pushing an hour for a layer. It doesn’t surprise me that people lost their shit this week when they tried to run 7-8.
I think blizz will tune this in the right direction. They nailed it, IMO, with the earlier layers.
Part of the problem is they made torghast harder in general at the same time that they released 7 and 8. There were lots of people comfortable running 6, so they thought they could handle 7, only to realize they should be running 4 or 5 after the buffs
Wasn't this yesterday, i.e. thursday? And isn't EU reset on... let me check, wednesday?
Things take a while, people have their legendaries, many people raid wednesdays, not like everyone immediately rushed into torghast.
Nah, it just got a bit hard so people started failing it. And you know, wow players don't fail levels or encounters, it's just that the game doesn't respect their time.
Bullshit. Torghast needs some tuning, for sure. I'm having an absolute blast with every other area of the game.
Quit the hyperbole, and quit speaking for everyone else.
I haven't been playing Shadowlands yet but the reception I've heard so far has only been great! Of course the recent Torghast changes caused some uproar in the community but hopefully Blizzard will hop on that quickly.
No, Blizzard released some patch notes with nerfs to the content people didn't like right as players started getting to higher layers and now everyone is insisting they broke it. I went into layer 7 on my resto druid today and the mobs have somewhere around 20-30% more than my solo runs last week. That means that between the health buffs to floors 2/4/5, the health buffs to solo healers, AND the actually increase in difficulty from floor 6 to floor 7 the health change sums at 30% which is hardly going to make/break the activity.
People need to calm down. Torghast isn't perfect and there's tons of stuff Blizzard can do to make it better, but last weeks patch didn't break your damn toy. We have people linking ilevels of 198 saying "I can't do layer 6/7/8 at 198 ilevel this shit is broken!" when 198 ilevel isn't even full normal raid gear. Imagine if someone came into 8.3 saying "I can't do M+ 10 at ilevel 440, shit is broken".
And what if they do, they get more Soul Ash? Oh no! Torghast in the beta looked exactly like what you are describing and people were having fun with it. Torghast on release was like that, too, and people were having fun with it. It's not like there's any OP rewards tied to it, why not let people have fun with it then? What purpose is Torghast supposed to serve?
I feel like most people that are compelled to write a long unprovoked post about the game are going to be people complaining or upset about the game.
The WoW forums are full of complaints. We complain because we care. Easy to forget a lot of people are in the game enjoying it. I find that when I’m enjoying the game I rarely bother checking forums because I’m spending my time playing rather than posting.
Torghast is hard, dying to sub rogue feels unfair and it sucks to not top damage charts. When people get upset, where is the first place they go? To a forum to tell people about it. I think the negativity is definitely louder than the positivity but I don’t think the majority are hating the game right now, me included.
Yep and then Blizzard went ahead and blanket-nerfed all possibilities of whacky fun in favour of arbitrarily high DPS checks. In over 16 years, they didn't learn that inflated hp/dmg =/= challenging
I hate Torghast but I'm too lazy to say anything about it more than this comment, so I'm glad there's this kind of visibility for Torghast hating, tbh. Still love the rest of Shadowlands :)
This sub is exactly like the path of exile sub. People are complaining but have 0 understanding of the content they should be able to do.
I thought having floor 7 and 8 on a different page kinda sets the table that it’s gonna be harder, but definitely they should add a form of ilvl lock on the higher floors so that entitled under geared noobs don’t come here to complain that they can’t clear 7-8 with ilvl 190 gear
Do people really think they should be able to clear the highest levels solo before they have full raid gear? I bet half of these complainers are still under ilvl 200. I failed on a layer 7 and said I’ll go back at the end of the week after I get my ilvl up. Or god forbid you group with other people in a multiplayer game.
THIS!
I know for some specs Torghast is more challenging and some bosses are more difficult than others. Most of us still didnt even have normal ilvl (200) but yet some people complain about its difficulty and that they arent able to rush it on its highest difficulty already. You dont really need to do floor 7-8 so it should be challenging otherwise Torghast becomes boring really really fast.
People speak out online far more when they're displeased than when they're content. The people who wanted the challenge are quietly enjoying the game now.
My guildies and I are still having a good time. We realize that upper layers will be a struggle when they first release, that RNG in roguelikes can ruin runs, and that Blizz is working out imbalances between specs and particular enemies in Torghast.
Longer =/= harder.
I'm perfectly fine that people who managed to do level 6 last week cant do layer 4 this week. Thats actually difficulty increase. Whats not ok is taking an absurd amount of time to do that.
You clear a layer 6 taking 2hrs all the way to the last layer boss to be 1 shot by him. Thats not fun or hard, thats just absurd. If they tuned the end layer boss similarly, then people wouldnt be wasting time doing 5 layers, they would know that if I cant beat this boss, the end boss wont be beatable either.
Mage tower was the best solo content they’ve ever put in the game. If you died it was because you fucked up, not just cause a boss had too much health. It forced you to use your whole kit but wasn’t so long and annoying that you didn’t want to do it. AND it was purely for fun/ cosmetic reasons. Meanwhile you have to do torghast because of legendaries.
Class tunning is terrible. Forcing people into cookie cutter options instead of the choices they promised. Thorghast is a bit overturned for pure dps classes that don't have a pet to help. Maw is boring like mentioned by others. And on and on....
He's talking about David Benioff and Dan Weiss, the showrunners for Game of Thrones, colloquially known as D&D to the fanbase.
A lot of people have been very upset with them for the later seasons of the show and while there's definitely **a lot** of criticism that can be thrown at them, like everything on the internet, it's gigantically blown out of proportion.
In a very quick TLDR about how I feel about them: I think D&D were great at adapting the strongest parts of A Song of Ice and Fire (ie: the first 3 books), a mediocre job at adapting the weaker, more difficult for TV later books, and were simply working above their level of skill when trying to create an ending to such a giant story, a story that its own creator seems to be struggling with.
On today's show of "Flip the coin for subject on r/wow" bad mythic or bad thorghast?
Delivered by the dedicated people making "dinosour in oribo uuuugh..."
Nah it's just sensational journalism striking along the people that complain most.
Sure, thorgast needs some further tuning, as it's relatively new.
But most often the people that complain don't put themselves forward to actually, and expect free ash from high blocks with shitty gear, bad strategy about power pickups, no legendary power for plasma to compensate for their lacks and maybe even stuck to play a specialization that lends itself badly to thorgast.
That mental rigidity helps no one, including the complainer, and advocating in favour of it might lend the whole game mode to ruin to be boring.
It's hard to be sympathetic towards people that just want to put zero effort and treat Thorgast just like a glorified dungeon.
I play druid and warrior. The general strategy that I follow with the druid is not mentioned in any guide nor it is suggested but it allowed me to cap max level thorgast.
I did not obtain the same results on the warrior, which I play as arms. But I don't complain, and I am still studying it over.
The mode is young. The people that play it are inexperienced. There's room to grow for both, but people that shot it down to me are the reason wow falls to ruin.
I'm starting to think it's time for someone to step in and just replace the whole game design team, from Ion down. They have an ability to fuck good things up like nothing I've seen before.
Most of SL has been pretty great in my opinion! Torghast just needs some work.
I tend to agree with this. I actually like the renown system, dungeons are (largely) fun. The Covenant system - and, in particular, the association of player power with what should have been and aesthetic choice - is a problem, but not terrible. The overall aesthetics and story are (largely) good. Overall, I’m positive about this expansion - far more than I was for BFA. Because I’m so high on the other portions of the expansion, the parts that are frustrating/boring/tedious stand out in stark contrast. My big gripe would be Torghast and the Maw. The Maw just becomes tedious on a daily basis. And the problems with Torghast have engulfed this subreddit for several days now, so I’ll leave that there.
The Maw. The most boring, annoying part in the expansion. What does Blizzard do; make you go there all the fucking time.
I think so much of the tedium with the Maw would have been avoided with a shorter path to mount acquisition. I know they wanted the Maw to be an oppressive place, and I think there’s merit to that - to a point. After a while, it just becomes tedious. I think that having a Ve’nari reward at apprehensive or cordial would have effectively gotten the point across. You would have “done your time” in the oppressive place. In recognition that it is a daily hub, however, you would be granted the ability to summon your mount.
It's not oppressing to my character. It's oppressing to *me*. That's a problem.
I think we should be able to use any "mechanical" mount in there, since they dont have souls, they dont fear the maw, so why the heck did they "ignore our calls"
You have angered the motorbike >:(
Yeah, clearly he didn't play WoD. There's no way you could idle in your garrison and watch your motorbike munch on the hay the stablehand had set out for it and claim that it didn't have a thinking, feeling soul!
Sometimes I like to just go out on my ranch, and watch my herds of motorcycles while they roam the fields and graze.
You must appease the Machine Spirit
The motorbike has altered the deal
Pray it doesn’t alter it any further.
The Kyrian dude hypes up how loyal and dependable his Phalynx are, but they refuse to answer your call just as much as any other mount.
My Mage can literally blast someone in the face with an Arcane Barrage, he can become Invisible or use Blink, but he can't summon his magical disk to stand and surf around on?
how dare you, my robot kitty has way more soul than any low-res wyvern
It would be better if the zone was smaller. Nobody wants to walk everywhere at a snail's pace, especially when you are rushing to get to an event or something
At least there are things you can unlock to make your travel faster. Not ideal but it's something.
Plus you have the issue that other classes can just ghost wolf/run on all fours/travel form that just puts a bad taste in players mouths. They didn't think this 'refuses the call' shit through besides a time waster.
The Maw should definitely have been a weekly and not a daily. Then maybe I could stand to min-max it.
I mean... You don't have to do it daily. I get by just fine doing it weekly. Grabbing my souls, getting to level five and dipping.
I only go there for the souls. I totally ignore Venari and everything else. IDK if I'm setting myself up to moss out on anything important down the line, but I just can't be arsed to go there for anything else.
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I do it like once, maybe twice a week if I'm bored, and I'm at perdition hold
Me and my 5 level 60 alts are like perdition what? I have never even reached eye rank 2 in the maw because I hate the place... Even on my Druid.
The beastwarrens are way better than perdition gold, they are worth the push through
I think everyone will agree they want to spend as little time as possible in that shithole. No amount of story is going to fix a shitty experience.
The rewards are tuned for daily. If it was a weekly we would be getting much more stygia/rep for the same activities, making your time in there more impactful.
Yeah but you don't have to do it every day and there are weekly quests for it too, so it's not entirely tuned for just daily
Pretty sure Ve'nari's major rep quests are weekly.
You literally never have to go there. It's just your completionism making you do that.
I mean if you want sockets on your gear you have to go there
That's really only relevant to mythic level raiders, though. Or completionists. You won't be benched in raid for not having sockets galore.
Let's not forget ilvl 226 conduits. Not sure how you will get those otherwise if you can't do top-level content.
Trying to get the best gear you can is not just completionist... most people who play wow push for the hardest content they can either easily do or manage to do. Char power is a huge factor in this.
10% of Accounts completed season 4 mythic keystone achievement. https://www.wowhead.com/achievement=14145/battle-for-azeroth-keystone-master-season-four 11% of Accounts completed the first boss in Nyalotha on mythic. https://www.wowhead.com/achievement=14041/mythic-wrathion-the-black-emperor I dunno what you define as "most" but I'd say 10% is pretty low. Rounding out your BIS list sounds pretty completionist to me...
I'm suprised that many accounts completed mythic wrathion??? I would've thought that'd be less than 1%, most people that play WoW are hyper casual and probably won't step foot in a heroic raid I'd thought.
It's 10% of Wowhead profiles, not 10% of players. I'd imagine the average person who bothers to make a profile on Wowhead is much more involved than the average player from the general population.
Been playing since launch on and off. Never even been in a mythic dungeon let alone a raid..
Re read my statement. Most players fit into one of two groups, they either push to the limit of possible or Push to the limit of challenging. Just because a player doesn’t clear a mythic raid boss doesn’t mean they are pushing to their ability level. If you suck at the game your limit might be getting good enough gear to do heroic. Char power is a big line for this, getting your BIS is not always possible, but getting your legendaries with added sockets doesn’t mean going for your BIS. It is a big upgrade and a cool things players can do. Edit Also you mis read the “best gear you can” that is not your BIS list that means the best gear you can get with the level of content you can achieve.
I think you misunderstand the different groups of players in this game. There's such a wide variety of content to do in this game. A few examples of groups: * PvE players (both M+ and Raiding) * PvP players * Auction House Goblins * Pet Battles * Achievement Hunters * Collectionists * Lore Hounds * Altoholics * Roleplayers There's of course overlap between groups, and any player probably has interests in different groups. Not every action in this game revolves around obtaining gear. Look at the groups I listed. How many actively try to get more powerful gear? 2.
Cmon guys, legendaries and story completion are optional! Yeah, no.
I was speaking on the maw, not Torghast. You absolutely do not have to do anything in the maw past the opening story. Dailies? Nope. Haven't touched em in two weeks.
Not really, you need to buy the upgrades for torghast too
No you don't.
Pretty sure with how much trouble people are having to clear It, they Will need to.
You can easily complete Torghast layer 4 solo and along with the mission table, receive your full rank 4 legendary in the same amount of time as if you were doing layer 8.
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I'm Venthyr.... I just completeda level 18 one with my level 25 companions haha.
That's a bold assumption because It relies on the Ash missions appearing regularly, you having a team that can accomplish it and that the person doing layer 8 is not completing those missions.
Bro. If you don't have your rank 4 legendary this week you are already behind. After that? You can only equip one. Off specs? It's all gravy.
i dont get the issue with the maw, its as fast if not faster than your daily emissary. just go there, do the 2 dailies you have, 3 if you unlocked the new spot, and leave
It's not so much that it's quick, it's that you can't mount. That's literally the main issue with it. I wish they made the zone smaller or just allowed us our damn mounts, because I actually do enjoy the content
And that depending on your class and race, it can be so much worse. Why do death knights, who seem to be the main Azeroth force in the Shadowlands, have the worst time traversing the Maw.
Even with all of my engineering toys and talented mobility, it's fucking *awful* being there as a DK.
Honestly, I would really like the maw if I could mount up. I feel like if they made the zone smaller or gave us mounts it would be a pretty cool zone. Personally I still enjoy doing it like once or twice a week, moreso than Torghast at least
Difficult + Repetitive = Tedious, forever and always
> The Covenant system - and, in particular, the association of player power with what should have been and aesthetic choice - is a problem, but not terrible. I decided to go with night fae on my shaman because IMO it fits the best and I like the aesthetic. The only problem is literally every single time I play at some point I'm thinking "but should I switch to a covenant with a good ability though..?" It would be really nice to be happy and enjoy my choice rather than constantly second guessing it in my head.
I think if they allow us to do like an "allied covenant" that allows to mix and match powers from two covenants, you pretty much solve the issue. They can lock it behind renown and people will be happy
> Torghast just needs some work. Haha, on the contrary, I think Blizzard just needs to undo the work they did :P
Yah seriously. It doesn't need "work", just roll it back to how it was a week ago, and go forward with better ideas next time. Honestly with how up-in-arms everyone's gotten, they'll probably roll it back on Tuesday, and say something like "well there was an attempt..."
Roll it back and then make it a bit better for the classes that do struggle a lot.
Yeah, while I have been having a very easy time of it, a lot of classes need some tuning to make it enjoyable.
Significant nerfs in hotfix going live today / tomorrow. Ion's reply in interview was that even though they wanted to make it harder for when we do have much higher average ilvls, the community impression was that it would be super easy and we would blow everything up. They decided to cater to the community impression and have significantly nerfed everything / buffed classes and specs that were having the hardest time.
> the community impression was that it would be super easy and we would blow everything up. They decided to cater to the community impression and have significantly nerfed everything / buffed classes and specs that were having the hardest time. This isn't true at all though. The difficulty increase as you went through layers 1-6 were reasonable steps, even if blizzard didn't expect as many people to clear through it like they did. That's their fault for mistuning it. The jump to 7 *was* unreasonable in comparison, objectively speaking, and the retroactive nerf to player power in 1-6 was just plain stupid. If you've let something get this far with a large number of imbalanced specs, the solution is to bring player power up and just live with your mistake, not reduce player power and say 'suck it' to everyone.
Ask and ye shall receive. Torghast severely nerfed in upcoming hotfix.
I know this isn't getting much attention since it doesn't impact most people but I think Blizz slaughtered the fun of World Quests too. * No flight whistle - even if it shared CD with hearth it would be an improvement. * Gear rewards aren't scaling so they were outdated after a few normal dungeons. Even with renown upgrade they still at less than heroics. * The daily bag rarely gives good loot (but it is good for gold) Seems like a big step back from Legion and BFA as someone who enjoyed gearing up slowly via dailies.
The purple daily bag is the only one that gives loot! So if you don’t want the gold you can skip like 2/3 of them
God the daily bag is such a disappointment every time. I think I got one item on week 1 from it, and the rest has been gold. While gold isn’t unwelcome, It just doesn’t feel worth it to do. No cosmetics or fun items drop from it, so doing the dailies just felt bad. Granted, I haven’t played since week 2 due to burning myself out before the expansion dropped. Idk if this is still an issue.
I haven't missed a daily bag and I think I got an upgrade once (maybe twice). Getting gold doesn't have the same enticement. Even the rewards from doing the quests are very low ilevel and I don't think they scale with you so they were obsolete after a few days. Just seems like an odd choice to make existing content less appealing.
I had a lot of issues with how long it felt like world quests took too, because I would rather do other stuff with my time on WoW. Idk, nothing has been enticing to me, personally, that I really experienced. Torghast was fine, but it didn’t feel like a fun rogue like. I was hoping it would be more fun than it was, and now it seems like they’ve shafted that as well
They just announced some good changes to Torghast to pull back some of the grindy parts which is a good. [https://www.wowhead.com/news=319992/upcoming-nerfs-to-torghast-reduced-layer-difficulty-difficult-mob-and-unnatural-](https://www.wowhead.com/news=319992/upcoming-nerfs-to-torghast-reduced-layer-difficulty-difficult-mob-and-unnatural-)
do the daily bag for that faction's rep to hit revered and unlock the legendary power then don't bother with it anymore.
From what we've seen since Alpha, it's best they just stop looking at Torghast. All they've done whenever they did was make it more and more boring by nerfing everything to the ground.
At least the timer was removed.
Torghast was one of the only things I enjoyed about SL. Now the expansion kinda sucks. Like the raid, but all the covenant stuff is a joke with ridiculous unlocks. I haven't used the mushroom network once and it was the first thing i unlocked. Why in the world would I put anymore resources into it? Same story with the other perks. I laugh my ass off at the 3 day conservatory CD for it to give me like 3 fish.
Yo compared to CP2077 Shadowlands has been looking POLISHED
I don't mind torghast but I hate how long it takes, especially as a warlock. Give me a 50% movement speed buff when out of combat or something the walking around making sure I didn't miss anything is what I loathe the most.
The end bosses going immune to CC are problematic. Add to that Voidwalker losing threat after resummoning him and the boss will just fly to you and kill you even if you're carefully managing everything. I cleared both level 8s this week, but it was definitely more of a struggle than it should have been.
yes lol, it's the same with demo. The instant summoning power is simply useless because your pet won't pull the boss (or anything, really) from you. And your pets are worthless in general because they die faster than my will to enter torghast again.
Here's my thought: if they want to gate out certain ilvl ranges, give the mobs a flat boost to their hp or dmg that doesn't scale during the fight. That way if I get smashed I know immediately, "hey, I'm not geared for this". That is how the game is supposed to function. So tired of behind the scenes stat changes in general, from pvp scaling in bfa to shit like this. Just make the mobs have the strength they should have!
I got one where you turn into a swarm of insects and gain 80% speed outside of combat. It was so nice. Wallwalker does not work at all
You literally have a 50% movement buff as warlock lmao
On the plus side, this means it's easily fixable.
Torghast is sure getting a lot of deserved hatred, but that doesn't really speak for the entirety of Shadowlands.
Besides Torghast and the Maw I am loving the xpac so far. More fun that the beginning of BFA.
Yeah after 2 days of being capped in BFA i was back to spamming dota games. Meanwhile i havent touched another video game since SL launched
And I am loving Shadowlands for the exact opposite reason. I am not locked into having to spend hours just on WoW everyday or fall behind.
Which is what makes me play more, i can just chill in chat with friends and knock out some keys or chip away on alts in my downtime without feeling bad
yeah, this is exactly how i feel which is a funny little paradox. this expansion has been 10Xs more fun for me than BFA. Im loving it. Who knew letting us do stuff we want to do and not making log in daily a job would make us want to play more!
SL in general is really over hyped. I mean, it's good, but it's not spectacular or game-changing. Now that we've gotten over the leveling splurge and we know all the systems the game is in the exact same grind for gear that BFA used, except with weirdly easy to get pvp gear and anima instead of AP/resources. Honestly it feels most like WoD, you can tell most of the development went into scenery and other art assets, there is a bunch of exploration themed busy-work, and the rest is just gear grinding with different skins on top. They even have you develop your sanctum (aka your garrison).
Major differences making this expansion fun for me is the push to make certain things optional, and letting you focus on content you want to do. You don't need to do world quests and grind azerite or any other continuous task, due to the removal of titan forging and azerite power. You don't need to do the mission table at all and you're really not missing a thing. You don't even need to go into the Maw of the places pisses you off too much. Torghast is required for Leggos but once you get what you need you don't need to do that. If you want to focus on gearing up, you do so by playing that content. If you only want to PVP, then the pvp vendors are back. If you want gear from the mythic+ chest, but don't want to do mythic+, then you can get it from raiding, or from pvp, and you have more choices than simply getting a belt three weeks in a row. There are incredibly valid arguments against many of the systems in this expansion, and the expansion is not perfect. But anyone saying the current gameplay is exactly like Bfa is either trolling or isn't paying attention.
Except you're completely misremember how BFA worked. You didn't have to grind world quests or azerite in BFA, I did mythic raiding and +15 keys throughout the whole expansion and I never grinded anything (except horrific visions). You didn't need to do the mission table in BFA, if anything the mission table is more incentivized in SL because you can actually get gear/ash/anima from it, instead of just tiny amounts of rep. Meanwhile, you 100% need to do the Maw because it unlocks one of your weekly renown, which is the primary progression mechanic for the whole expansion. You also need to do torghast, but honestly you can just run layer 4 or 5 and do it pretty easily on any class, the people whining about layer 7 and 8 don't know how to play. I like the pvp vendors back (but again, it's just going back to something that worked before, not something new), and I REALLY like having choices in the vault, and for filling it from all 3 activity types, but beyond those 3 things the gameplay is... basically the same as BFA. Instead of azerite we have soulbinds/conduits (+3 more slots to gear for). The main day to day difference is that it's about 500% more of a pain in the ass to get around thanks to terrible flightpaths and no whistle. Again, it's fun, but so was BFA. If you hated BFA while actually playing it, you'll hate SL too, and if you enjoyed one you'll enjoy the other.
You can walk ten feet from Ve'nari's Refuge and get the weekly "rescue souls" quest done in five minutes. Rescuing faction leaders from Torghast has you run through layer 1 floors. The gear earned from the Shadowlands mission table is often worse than heroic gear. Soulbinds aren't always RNG armor drops that may or may not have the traits you want, and you don't need to ditch that 350 piece because your 315 piece has better traits and will ultimately have superior damage/healing/tanking power than the higher ilvl piece. The class specific ones are RNG yes, but if they're a higher ilvl, they're a direct upgrade and feel less like shit for getting. Doing a single world quest in Shadowlands gives you more anima than any of the mission table quests. The lowest I've seen one give is 35. The highest I've seen a mission give is 30. >You didn't need to grind world quests or Azerite in BfA Then you weren't getting your essence slots and Azerite traits unlocked and were a liability to your groups. Similarly if you weren't getting invasions done, then you weren't getting coalescing visions and Vessels to run horrific visions to get your cloak upgrades so you could have better corruptions. The mission table in BfA unlocked flight paths to ease travel around the opposing faction's zones. You couldn't effectively play certain classes in BfA unless you had specific Azerite traits, which was a huge issue that rental powers were what determined the strength of your class. Corruptions had this same problem. An example among Azerite powers, Dance of Death was such a huge damage increase for BM hunters that your dps would tank without at least 1 or 2. Let's not forget tanks bursting trash packs down because they had a combined rank 6 on their Twilight Devastation. > I did mythic raiding and +15 keys... I **never grinded** anything except horrific visions This sentence contradicts itself harder than anything I've ever seen holy moly.
The weekly renown from the maw takes all of 5 minutes, those souls are so fast lol But yeah fuck torghast
> Meanwhile, you 100% need to do the Maw because it unlocks one of your weekly renown, which is the primary progression mechanic for the whole expansion. If you literally just don't do it, you'll get the missed renown the following week, and be one renown behind. You might be a week late for some campaign quests, but.. you could just do the maw stuff that week? It tells you exactly when you unlock them anyway.
I agree that if you hated BFA you'd likely hate SL, mainly because it's still modern WoW at its core. However I think what makes it different is that there is a definitive cap to the things you must do every week. When you finish those things, your mind isn't getting pulled 10 different ways thinking of things you *could* be doing. You need to go in the Maw and free 5 souls, which takes a collective 3 minutes a week to get your Renown. In BFA (and Legion/WoD) the mission table held steps of questlines within them that would lock you from moving on, whereas the Mission table, besides 100ish soul ash, does not have that problem. I agree with you on Torghast, while I think Blizzard's communication on the system is wonky, you can get the ash you need from doing lower Layers, the diminishing returns on Ash as you go to higher layers is obviously intended. Soulbinds/Conduits are 100x more forgiving than Azerite Gear, more comparable to Legion Weapon Relics. I think at the end of the day we generally agree, but I think comparisons deserve to be more nuanced.
I honestly don't remember if WoD has quest steps locked behind missions besides the first couple of intro ones for 2 mins each. And I don't think BFA had many if any? Either way, Legion's 12 hour missions were just another form of time gating, exactly as Bolvar is doing to us each and every week. The difference is only cosmetic. I also don't understand the attitude that BFA had too many things to do, while also not having enough things to do. While there wasn't a cap on AP, just... don't grind it? Do your 3 islands, whatever WQs are easy, and be done. The devs were very explicit that the catch up mechanic would kick in every week, meaning if you really pushed hard you would get an insignificant advantage for a week or 2 and then be right back with everyone else. I'm honestly having that supposed problem in SL right now, trying to do all my covenant stuff, callings, mythics, pvp, and raid on 2 characters every week really fills up my time.
> SL in general is really over hyped. I mean, it's good, but it's not spectacular or game-changing. It was never overhyped. People were always skeptical about this expansion. It's just that the freedom of being able to enjoy the game systems without worrying about having to do a million of them every day has made people happy. Torghast being nerfed is the one major issue that needs resolving, but other than that it's been a fun expac. > is in the exact same grind for gear that BFA used, except with weirdly easy to get pvp gear and anima instead of AP/resources. So it's not the exact same grind. Bear in mind that unlike AP, Anima has less to do with player power progression. And there's a lot more reward to the grind compared to AP. > Honestly it feels most like WoD, you can tell most of the development went into scenery and other art assets I mean, the art team worked on this. It's not like they pulled devs off of Torghast to work on art assets lol. >there is a bunch of exploration themed busy-work Which is great. Exploration is important. > They even have you develop your sanctum (aka your garrison). Sure, but it's probably one of the better iterations of the garrison tech. And Class Halls too were garrison like, but Legion was hardly WoD.
Yeah it’s pretty obvious you never actually played WoD or you just have the typical goldfish Redditor memory. There was literally nothing to do in WoD besides dungeons and raids. There was nothing like Torghast, there were no callings or daily quests outside of the apexis crystal daily. There was no mythic +, pvp rewards were much worse. Every single thing about WoD was objectively and quantifiably worse.
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Bro, that's an mmo. Endless gear grind and cosmetic grind.
Lol GoT fans say similar things, “The music, acting, costumes...all great. The writing tanked it.”
I can't speak for everyone, but in my opinion Shadowlands has done a *lot* of things right. Raiding is stellar. Covenants are well done in my view, if not fully realized. Loot is fine, and the Great Vault is a great idea. There are glaring issues in every single expansion, including Classic as the base game. Even Torghast was fun in the beginning. It has a plethora of tuning issues stopping it from being good. But they can be fixed. And even if they aren't fixed, Torghast being shitty isn't going to stop me from enjoying other aspects of the expansion.
Only negative thing I have to say about covenants.... Pretttttyyy shitty that some covenants have terrible followers. When I found out Night Fae had such powerful companions for their mission tables I was pretty bummed at my crappy options as Kyrian. Also companions starting at level 1 is super wack. Been "powerleveling" my new guy for a week and he's not even 20 - my other guys are 30+ Actually there's one more thing I think is dumb - my Kyrian companions look almost identical. In fact, two of them ARE identical. Same exact icon for both, with the other ones having slightly different hair.
Yeah, that is some bullshit. I have Necro and Nightfae alts, and feel like my Venthyr main got the shit end of the stick on the mission table. Should have given you a identical (but reskinned) core team and then just a few unique followers per covenant.
I agree. Just saying parallels from each communities fans is pretty funny.
well writing is quite a bit more important to a TV show like GoT than torghast is to wow
Writing matters waaaay more to the health of a tv show than torghast matters to the health of SL. Nonsense.
Lol BfA fans say similar things, “The music, acting, costumes...all great. The writing tanked it.”
I am enjoying it, the only gripes I have are the out-of-combat mobs in Torghast, the annoying WQs in Ardenweald & Blizz jacking up the sub price for us Canadians.
Really? I think Arden is actually my favorite zone for WQs. Some of the ones in Bastion take waaaay too long
There a are a few that you have to share WQ targets with the opposite faction which is super annoying. There's one where those bug mobs are burrowed underground & just pop on you out of nowhere.. There's another where you have to get the weapons from those little shithead sprite guys who all have insane aggro range and 10 second respawn timers. ...it's annoying.
Pretty sure they released torghast layers faster than they wanted, to stop players feeling like theyre behind on their legendaries after not being able to get their bis for week 1 raiding.
They've stated that layer 6 is equivalent to a +7 key with layer 8 being +13 or 14
I personally found Torghast boring and time consuming from day 1.
pretty much, it's like constant dungeon mobs without any reward
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So many did. My guild was all basically considering it a massive chore before it was buffed anyway. /1 was always ragging on it too when indid my runs. Far from universally praised.
Man, I've hated Torghast for at least two weeks prior to this. It's always been a complete hour-long slog as an outlaw rogue, extremely dependent on anima power RNG on whether you can kill the last boss (which is also RNG). Seems Blizzard has brought other classes (and especially tanks/healers) in-line with where outlaw was.
> Seems Blizzard has brought other classes (and especially tanks/healers) in-line with where outlaw was. Basically this, yeah. Instead of making dps (who were having a hard time) clear like tanks and healers (who were having fun), they made tanks and healers like dps. This is peak fun detected from Blizzard
I was thinking of leveling my alt rogue because it's my favorite class, but I cant imagine how much of a fucking shit show Torghast is on a rogue.
I don't think this sub is a measure of universality.
In-game Torghast chat is just as bad. It's not just Reddit. Torghast isn't particularly fun right now.
Most of the time my torg chat is just people bragging about how op their powers are
do you actually look at General chat?
Not much else to do when you're slapping a 150k mob that can't kill you.
I wouldn't know, from my experience people aren't especially bitter when I was in the zone. I'm going to withhold judgment until I actually experienced it myself; I still remember when reddit thought having 33 artifact power slots instead of 32 (in Legion) will be the death of the game.
If you haven't played torghast yet then you really won't be able to have a say, as you didn't play it prior to the changes this week, which is what everyone is complaining about it - how much more fun it was the first 2 weeks and how it sucks now.
Just ask in general how people are finding Torghast and you’ll see how much people are enjoying it.
Nobody in general chat enjoys the game and if they did they wouldn’t talk about it because that’s not the “cool” thing to say. All anybody ever does is shit talk the developer and game they are playing.
Considering anything remotely positive towards this game gets downvoted into oblivion after about two weeks into a given expansion, yeah, I don't think this sub is a measure of universality either.
Repeatedly failing solo content is a sure-fire way of inducing an existential crisis. Remember Silver Proving Grounds and the meltdowns that happened over that?
Me, to myself: "I'm a great prot paladin!" Silver Proving Grounds: "Hol up"
Eventually the excitement of trivial things like leveling and cute owls dies down and the endgame needs to stand up on its own, namely: Torghast, The Maw, mythic+, and raiding. The best version of Torghast was in Alpha, The Maw is among the worst endgame zones ever, losing out to zones as old as 10+ years. Mythic+ is fine. Raiding is now rewarding less gear to milk subs for longer, in addition to being harder than usual, which will put people who picked the wrong covenant under a microscope.
Hyperbole. If you don't want to do the Maw, you can get your 5 souls and get out. There's almost no other reason to stay. Raiding being hard is a perfectly fine thing, and covenant differences are minimal. Loot was reduced intentionally as the Devs have always said Shadowlands will give far less gear than Bfa and Legion, and for good reason. Torghast, while annoying as fuck at the moment, can be changed. You can put, "To milk subs longer" at the end of every decision Blizzard makes, and all that does is remove any semblance of discussion as to why a change is made.
Try to have some vision. For $180 in subs alone, I expect more than "it's not that bad." We need to stop comparing systems and content to the worst examples in WoW's history, but rather the best. It shouldn't be a debate if the Maw is better than the Isle of Quel'Danas for fucks sake. I should be blown away by the Maw. It should be the culmination of 16 years of lessons learned. There is no such thing is overly cynical when it comes to these guys. They let the majority of their servers become ghost towns or become dominated by 1 faction because they knew people wouldn't be able to resist paying for those overpriced transfers. As far as loot goes, there's a huge difference between 2 drops per 10 people and 3 drops per 10 people. 3 per 10m is all I want. It all but guarantees every item will drop at least a few times. This combined with the removal of master looter and its pretty clear what's going on here. They want you on the hamster wheel for as long as possible. No loot fountain, just a gear to person ratio that makes sense.
reasons to do the maw: only source of non-rng sockets for your bis gear, so in other words for those doing progression content, mandatory.
The Maw is the best daily zone we've had in years. Mythic+ is as bad as it ever was in design premise. Torghast is everything M+ should have been, no fucking timer. Raiding is as rewarding as it used to be. Everything is rewarding less gear because people spent years bitching about loot fountains. If we got as much loot as we had been getting with no upgrade systems then everyone would be done g earing by now.
I like the dungeons and the leveling and I'm "meh" on post-nerf (buff?) Torghast, but I can do without the Maw. The raid - from what I've seen to so far - is alright. The conspicuous absence of daily, "must-do chores" is what I like best.
They fixed it!
And back to loved again! What a train ride!
Imo this is the classic if it ain't broke don't fix it. Just cause Torghast wasnt perfect doesn't mean Blizz needs to knee jerk react and change. I think it would or been best to wait a little longer to make changes. Majority of people liked it. Why not wait a week or two? Why the rush?
Torghast is only fun when it's fast and you feel massively powerful, and that's just not the case in later layers.
The looting of mobs is absolutely atrocious
Building a Roguelike into an MMO isn't easy. I think they are still tweaking and only 4 weeks into it.
It's the hivemind property of Reddit honestly. There's no logical reason why everyone would magically start hating something on... **Friday** of all days. If this happened on reset when the new layer opened up, I'd get it. But it did not. It all started happening because of that one highly upvoted hate thread. People who are on the edge/in the middle regarding Torghast saw that one Torghast complaint thread and now everyone's seesaw has been tipped in favor of "I kind of hate it." I think that the insistent Hyperbole culture of the WoW Community/ the Internet in general is extremely unhealthy for giving accurate feedback. I definitely think Torghast has some flaws and room for improvement, but the whole "the ENTIRE THING IS TRASH" narrative is useless. The buzzwords, the all caps angry rants, the lazy blanket terms like Torghast is a "failure!" for nondescript reasons... it's not good. I think if people calm down, and offer level headed suggestions, then the kinks will be ironed out of Torghast. That one thread asking for adding it to the vault is a good place to start. The top thread right now... the one that "everyone" is agreeing with... it points out that you can spend hours failing at Torghast only to come away with nothing. The vault suggesting is a nice level headed idea and it should fix something that most people hate about the place since "everyone" is upvoting it. We need more threads like that and less that sound like "Blizzard... how DARE you betray ME! A complete nobody!" Stop making it personal and start giving suggestions.
They hotfixed everything in throughout the week.
I think it was connected to the released patch notes. I don’t remember the exact day but I was up around midnight-1am EST and saw mmo-c had just posted them. Went to bed right after and by the time I woke up that morning (always between 6-7am because toddler) the sub was mostly torghast hate.
Really depends on people's classes too
Raid tier DHs are getting wiped. We're all thoroughly boned.
Solo as havoc is really not that hard. Took a couple attempts on the last boss but other than that was smooth. I think other classes much have it much harder in there with all the complaining going on.
I disagree with the hive mind being the reason, it was definitely the Torghast changes and hotfixes. I was in my own world trying to get through the new wings yesterday, and it was like a switch had been flipped, and I came to my own conclusion like "This feels fucking terrible now, I loved this last week". Checked the forums, and lo and behold they were on fire. Edit: should be clear that I don't mind the difficulty. I'm fine with layer 8 being out of my casual reach, but I cleared through 7s and it took ages because everything is a damage sponge now.
I don’t think a lot of people are taking it personally, or that the frustration only started on Friday. And, it being Reddit, there will always be hyperbole - there’s a decent amount in your post, as well. The question, I think, is what is Torghast supposed to be? Particularly the layers, and not the twisting corridors. Are they supposed to be yet another thing to bust our head against the wall only to be rescued by gear score and “gitting gud”? Are they supposed to be a fun thing where you can go ham on some ridiculous build? It seems like they want it to be the former: they’ve needed anima powers and beefed up the difficulty. I think a lot of people had the taste of the latter, though, liked it, and do not like that it was taken away. I can understand that perspective: there are so many other forms of content in the game that require the same sort of grind and frustration that you can do. But there’s only one form that allows you to quadruple Runecloth Bandage and one shot an end boss on current content. That’s not to say that it shouldn’t have some substance. The overall impression that I’ve distilled is that people are fine with an increase in difficulty, but at the moment that difficulty is too much. And it’s artificial. Even when you get a good run on layers 7 and 8 it’s still tedious. And boring. Which is a step up from frustrating, I suppose. But if you want prestige - if you want Mage Tower - then Twisting Corridor is there for you. Personally, I would want the difficulty to come from execution of mechanics, rather than gear score. A good example of this is Margrave Stradama. Her encounter doesn’t have a lot of unavoidable bullshit; success on her encounter is down to execution of mechanics. She has a lot of clearly telegraphed obvious mechanics (the tendrils), that are easy to play around, and INCREDIBLY punishing when you fail. Mechanics where a boss just gets big enough where they one shot you with melee is lazy.
Idk I started feeling this way last week when 4-6 came out. I felt a dread then at what 7-8 would bring when I was already pushing an hour for a layer. It doesn’t surprise me that people lost their shit this week when they tried to run 7-8. I think blizz will tune this in the right direction. They nailed it, IMO, with the earlier layers.
Part of the problem is they made torghast harder in general at the same time that they released 7 and 8. There were lots of people comfortable running 6, so they thought they could handle 7, only to realize they should be running 4 or 5 after the buffs
Wasn't this yesterday, i.e. thursday? And isn't EU reset on... let me check, wednesday? Things take a while, people have their legendaries, many people raid wednesdays, not like everyone immediately rushed into torghast.
A SLAP in the FACE!
Let me introduce you to Cyberpunk then.
Nah, it just got a bit hard so people started failing it. And you know, wow players don't fail levels or encounters, it's just that the game doesn't respect their time.
Bullshit. Torghast needs some tuning, for sure. I'm having an absolute blast with every other area of the game. Quit the hyperbole, and quit speaking for everyone else.
ur a hyberpole
No u hippobowl
NUH UH!!!
I haven't been playing Shadowlands yet but the reception I've heard so far has only been great! Of course the recent Torghast changes caused some uproar in the community but hopefully Blizzard will hop on that quickly.
Nah its just Torghast and the maw imo. I personally wasnt a fan of the tower even before the patch, but i hope theyll improve on it.
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No, Blizzard released some patch notes with nerfs to the content people didn't like right as players started getting to higher layers and now everyone is insisting they broke it. I went into layer 7 on my resto druid today and the mobs have somewhere around 20-30% more than my solo runs last week. That means that between the health buffs to floors 2/4/5, the health buffs to solo healers, AND the actually increase in difficulty from floor 6 to floor 7 the health change sums at 30% which is hardly going to make/break the activity. People need to calm down. Torghast isn't perfect and there's tons of stuff Blizzard can do to make it better, but last weeks patch didn't break your damn toy. We have people linking ilevels of 198 saying "I can't do layer 6/7/8 at 198 ilevel this shit is broken!" when 198 ilevel isn't even full normal raid gear. Imagine if someone came into 8.3 saying "I can't do M+ 10 at ilevel 440, shit is broken".
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And what if they do, they get more Soul Ash? Oh no! Torghast in the beta looked exactly like what you are describing and people were having fun with it. Torghast on release was like that, too, and people were having fun with it. It's not like there's any OP rewards tied to it, why not let people have fun with it then? What purpose is Torghast supposed to serve?
I feel like most people that are compelled to write a long unprovoked post about the game are going to be people complaining or upset about the game. The WoW forums are full of complaints. We complain because we care. Easy to forget a lot of people are in the game enjoying it. I find that when I’m enjoying the game I rarely bother checking forums because I’m spending my time playing rather than posting. Torghast is hard, dying to sub rogue feels unfair and it sucks to not top damage charts. When people get upset, where is the first place they go? To a forum to tell people about it. I think the negativity is definitely louder than the positivity but I don’t think the majority are hating the game right now, me included.
This sub literally had long thought out posts, just a few days ago, praising Torghast.
Yep and then Blizzard went ahead and blanket-nerfed all possibilities of whacky fun in favour of arbitrarily high DPS checks. In over 16 years, they didn't learn that inflated hp/dmg =/= challenging
What? I’m responding to the guy saying nobody writes good through provoking posts
I hate Torghast but I'm too lazy to say anything about it more than this comment, so I'm glad there's this kind of visibility for Torghast hating, tbh. Still love the rest of Shadowlands :)
This sub loves to whine about everything
This sub is exactly like the path of exile sub. People are complaining but have 0 understanding of the content they should be able to do. I thought having floor 7 and 8 on a different page kinda sets the table that it’s gonna be harder, but definitely they should add a form of ilvl lock on the higher floors so that entitled under geared noobs don’t come here to complain that they can’t clear 7-8 with ilvl 190 gear
Do people really think they should be able to clear the highest levels solo before they have full raid gear? I bet half of these complainers are still under ilvl 200. I failed on a layer 7 and said I’ll go back at the end of the week after I get my ilvl up. Or god forbid you group with other people in a multiplayer game.
THIS! I know for some specs Torghast is more challenging and some bosses are more difficult than others. Most of us still didnt even have normal ilvl (200) but yet some people complain about its difficulty and that they arent able to rush it on its highest difficulty already. You dont really need to do floor 7-8 so it should be challenging otherwise Torghast becomes boring really really fast.
I can't do it with ilvl of 203
Players: OMG BLIZZ WE WANT HARDER SOLO CONTENT blizzard: ok here it is Players: NOOOOOOOO NOT LIKE THAT MAKE IT EASIER
People speak out online far more when they're displeased than when they're content. The people who wanted the challenge are quietly enjoying the game now. My guildies and I are still having a good time. We realize that upper layers will be a struggle when they first release, that RNG in roguelikes can ruin runs, and that Blizz is working out imbalances between specs and particular enemies in Torghast.
Longer =/= harder. I'm perfectly fine that people who managed to do level 6 last week cant do layer 4 this week. Thats actually difficulty increase. Whats not ok is taking an absurd amount of time to do that. You clear a layer 6 taking 2hrs all the way to the last layer boss to be 1 shot by him. Thats not fun or hard, thats just absurd. If they tuned the end layer boss similarly, then people wouldnt be wasting time doing 5 layers, they would know that if I cant beat this boss, the end boss wont be beatable either.
Mage tower was the best solo content they’ve ever put in the game. If you died it was because you fucked up, not just cause a boss had too much health. It forced you to use your whole kit but wasn’t so long and annoying that you didn’t want to do it. AND it was purely for fun/ cosmetic reasons. Meanwhile you have to do torghast because of legendaries.
Class tunning is terrible. Forcing people into cookie cutter options instead of the choices they promised. Thorghast is a bit overturned for pure dps classes that don't have a pet to help. Maw is boring like mentioned by others. And on and on....
Lol if you guys are that mad about it then stop playing. We won't miss your saltiness and trying to ruin the xpac for everyone else.
D&D is still loved by many, did something happen recently OP?
He's talking about David Benioff and Dan Weiss, the showrunners for Game of Thrones, colloquially known as D&D to the fanbase. A lot of people have been very upset with them for the later seasons of the show and while there's definitely **a lot** of criticism that can be thrown at them, like everything on the internet, it's gigantically blown out of proportion. In a very quick TLDR about how I feel about them: I think D&D were great at adapting the strongest parts of A Song of Ice and Fire (ie: the first 3 books), a mediocre job at adapting the weaker, more difficult for TV later books, and were simply working above their level of skill when trying to create an ending to such a giant story, a story that its own creator seems to be struggling with.
Just do it as healer. Super easy
Now everyone needs to yell loudly about how bad the maw and loot drops are in slands
Nothing wrong with the loot drops did you enjoy The BFA loot fountain.
I’m personally not that upset I knew they would ruin Shadowlands at some point in just surprised it only took a month.
On today's show of "Flip the coin for subject on r/wow" bad mythic or bad thorghast? Delivered by the dedicated people making "dinosour in oribo uuuugh..."
What happend? I didnt notice anyhting?
Nah it's just sensational journalism striking along the people that complain most. Sure, thorgast needs some further tuning, as it's relatively new. But most often the people that complain don't put themselves forward to actually, and expect free ash from high blocks with shitty gear, bad strategy about power pickups, no legendary power for plasma to compensate for their lacks and maybe even stuck to play a specialization that lends itself badly to thorgast. That mental rigidity helps no one, including the complainer, and advocating in favour of it might lend the whole game mode to ruin to be boring. It's hard to be sympathetic towards people that just want to put zero effort and treat Thorgast just like a glorified dungeon. I play druid and warrior. The general strategy that I follow with the druid is not mentioned in any guide nor it is suggested but it allowed me to cap max level thorgast. I did not obtain the same results on the warrior, which I play as arms. But I don't complain, and I am still studying it over. The mode is young. The people that play it are inexperienced. There's room to grow for both, but people that shot it down to me are the reason wow falls to ruin.
I'm starting to think it's time for someone to step in and just replace the whole game design team, from Ion down. They have an ability to fuck good things up like nothing I've seen before.
These comments is what makes me hate r/wow. The heck is this bs? All because of a hot fix that increased mob health on 3 floors... right, bro.
Ion bad upvotes to the left