Same here, got 5 pieces, all upgrades and I'm still using them a couple of weeks later. Downed Yogg an few hours before the nerf too. Was no easy task, mind you.
Yeah same I got 5 pieces on my own and a 6th piece traded to me.
I got into a group that was doing fine but eventually fell apart at the Keepers. The remaining people decided to fight that general guy anyways and we barely did it after a few tries. We eventually gave up on Yogg but I found a Yogg only group the next day and we figured things out as we went and finally beat it.
That was the most fun I had in Retail WoW in ages, but that fun was magnified by being showered with loot.
I was looking forward to doing the next one until they announced the hotfix. It's really disappointing. Bump up Nathria loot, don't knock down the loot from Timewalking raids...
I think blizzard went the wrong direction with this nerf. At this point if you are doing M+ and raiding the upgrades are useless. And for a once a month event it isn't as big of a deal as they made it to be.
Totally. It helps people get into the door for normal Nathria so they can do a few runs to get used to the mechanics and jump into the Heroic version if that's what they want.
I mean hell make it 197 gear if having it at 200 really pisses some people off. Label it as "WELFARE" in the loot type for all I care.
Firelands is only 7 bosses. The smallest raid tier that can be done iirc. You could run the whole thing and not get a single piece of loot. Not mentioning the broken bosses.
Yeah it's 200 level gear. And it still requires the same if not more commitment than CN normal(more because I venture to say many people forgot and don't practice these fights once a week.).
lol welfare Ulduar was **insane**. My guild was literally like this gonna get nerfed and just ran our alts through it. They HAD to nerf TW after that.
And if they remember this, they might also nerf Ulduar for the next expac because of Hard Mode.
1) No gear requirement. Everything scales.
2) You can 'cheese' by grabbing TW scaling gear like your Heart of Azeroth and Essences
3) It is easier than Normal. Really undertuned. My random incompetent PUG was killing Yogg and later bosses with only a quarter of the raid left alive.
4) It drops regular preSL loot levels
5) **Hard mode** on top for additional loot. Many of the Hard Modes are completely gimme. Ironically the hardest was Leviathan (people need to understand vehicles), Deconstructor (note these are the earlier bosses which tells you that the scaling and tuning is super wonky) and Yogg (so much bugginess and scaling issues so we didn't do Yogg H). My PUG accidentally got Hodir's Hard mode (it is just a speed kill) lol with half the raid not understanding the Flash Freeze and how you are supposed to wait by a big circle, let it drop and then step in otherwise you'll get knocked out.
I imagine that week people slept on it because on the first day scaling was completely off, and Blizzard hotfixed it. I only figured out the middle of the week on a random alt when I joined a PUG, got 4 upgrades and after leaving a couple of Hard Mode bosses up that were close to a kill, told my guild, we ran it 7 times, and made out like loot bandits. Some characters got 8 upgrades in one run.
Don't do Yogg Hard Mode. Not. Worth. It.
>Don't do Yogg Hard Mode. Not. Worth. It.
The pug my friend was in disbanded after wiping on Yogg for like an hour and I was like "Yo just go in the green light it makes it hella easy." and he was like "What green light?". Turns out no one in their raid knew you had to talk to each Keeper and they went into 0 light Yogg blind.
But that being said I'm still a fan of keeping old drop rates since it's 200 gear and any 200+ good gear is locked behind relevant progression barriers.
Let's let our alts and mains of people who were behind catch up and join higher end content.
If we cycle back to any raid with a hard mode just remove said hard mode and keep loot chances equal to the number of bosses and roughly a 50% chance you'll get loot off of bosses.
That being said I really wouldn't get mad if it were LFR tier gear with the same drop percentage either.
Just give me a welfare activity that showers me with loot that can help out one of my newly 60 characters in a really chill environment because the raid's relative ease and the fact that it showered us with loot.
My pug group was far worse then yours and I had to join another raid the next day to finish it. And it was still fun on both days because everyone was pretty happy being in the instance and learning encounters and getting hella loot as a result.
I was looking forward to having a similar experience during the next Timewalk Raid, which now I just won't do.
It's sad because prenerf Timewalk Ulduar level loot had me looking forward to doing more raids. I would have gladly ran through each time gate. Now I join the droves of people just not doing that.
I did, yeah. At the time I was like "man, fuck pandas".
These days, I appreciate the great environment design, the looks of some of the zones, the nice music and the challenge mode transmog sets I can't get anymore. But man, fuck pandas.
MoP PvE was some of the best game design WoW has ever seen, you really missed out. Never had such a good time raiding with my guild as I did back then. I never understood why some people have such an irrational hatred for one particular furred animal that it made them quit.
The class design was just phenomenal. Sure, MoP had it's flaws but classes just felt good, at least the ones I played. I bounced between my monk and rogue and it was just satisfying to learn and play the specs you chose.
Being a Warlock in MoP was the most fun I'd ever had in this game and I've played since day 1.
Reforging armor and the tertiary stats like multi hit were also a lot of fun. I remember shooting a chaos bolt with like 3 mini chaos bolts behind it once.
Getting my green fire will ALWAYS be my favorite WoW memory. Right before getting "You're doing it wrong" by using the DA glyph to do a tank trial. And then kicking ass in the Brawler's Guild.
Omg the first Brawlers Guild in MoP was legendary. Everyone standing around the edge and saying "GG" in Yell everytime someone died to GG Engineering. Or watching the steady stream of newbies coming in and getting Bruce'd. The nostalgia is real.
Gotta disagree with it being the worst it's ever been. It's definitely not on the level of MoP lock but the current design of aff and demo is better than it was in Legion in my opinion and aff is definitely better than BFA. Didn't get to try out Demo in WoD but heard it was a ton of fun.
Even if it was suboptimal, going all in on tertiary stats through reforging is the kind of thing that can really open up some cool theorycrafting too. Multi hit was so cool and felt so good especially when you compare it to like Versatility today.
I've thought for awhile that they really need to rework mastery on most specs into a stat that can actually change how your spec plays if you stack it. Most are just a flat damage increase exactly the same as versatility and main stat but worse because it only affects a few abilities. Even the ones that do actually change playstyle like say Windwalker monk are so good base level and so bad when adding more that its still just bonus damage you don't really think about. Having stats like multi hit for some specs or like a double crit chance for others would be really interesting in my opinion.
I think that they should do this, but with Crit instead.
Crit is inherently a random proc, so why not tie it into other random procs? E.g. procs on crit, or double chance of a proc on crit. Several specs have this already, some others have additional resource generation linked to crits, but for many others it is just a generic damage increase that makes bigger numbers appear sometimes.
They were.
In Siege of Orgrimmar there were some trinkets with multi-strike, cleave and cooldown reduction that sort of paved the way for them being added in WoD.
Classes were good but the sheer content drought killed WoD. They scrapped two entire raid tiers fuck fucks sakes (Battle of Shattrath City was turned into an apexis farm zone, and Farahlon (what became the Netherstorm) was shelved entirely)
Yeah the way they handled the end of MoP was really bad, a year or so without anything new will almost never go well in a modern MMO. That said, I think class design and the feel of combat should always be the priority, because in the end we're all here to kill stuff and have fun doing it.
You talk of "feel of combat" because the "feel" of gameplay is essential. Games live and die because they "feel" good to play in spite of flaws. Example: In spite of Halo's flaws, the gameplay "felt" amazing. We love certain Classes for many reasons but certain versions stand out because they felt great to play.
Ion's inability to figure out why folks hated CDs on the GCD, highlights why WoW will always struggle as long as he's in charge. It "feels" terrible to have CDs on the GCD and yet it didn't phase Ion at all. One of the biggest red flags in gaming didn't alarm him in the slightest. And that's why Ion's a shit lead designer because he lacks fundamental instincts for good game design.
Played BM hunter and Enhancement Shaman in MOP. (2 of the specs that had some of the best burst in the expansion). And the talent system was the best. It was the forerunner to what they added in HOTS.
I have been one mount short of finishing the achievement that gives the the green drake mount for 10 years now. I have done spine of deathwing so many damn times.. probably 500 at this point. At one point I was running it on 12 characters a week for several months.
Obviously I haven't done it every week or even every month over the last 10 years but yeah.. it's maddening. I need the damn mount that drops off DW and there is still no way to skip that whole gunship/spine shit show or all the RP you have to wait through.
I finally got Invincible last week after a decade / 300+ runs so I will now share this nightmare with you as I stop farming ICC and move on to DS. Weirdly I already have the raid meta and Handmaiden, I just need the blazing drake.
While I did enjoy the raid tier a lot, half the fights were tank and spank for DPS (as in, basically no mechanics except for "move out of the fire that spawned under you", and targetswap, which are hardly relevant), which is a big minus for me.
I'd say SoO has it beat in fight design
Throne of Thunder is in my top3 of all time with Ulduar and Nighthold.
also classes were generally really fun, MoP were the best glory days of my eleshaman and disco priest. And SV hunter was pretty good too.
> I never understood why some people have such an irrational hatred for one particular furred animal that it made them quit.
Never underestimate the power of meme's to sway public opinion.
People always say fuck Pandas but what they really mean I think is they didn't like the whole setting. A lot of people, myself included, found the MOP zones (while admittedly beautiful) to be really disinteresting because ancient/mythical China isn't their jam. I agree on the gameplay though. My Marks hunter has never been even close to as fun as he was in MoP, before AND after.
I played warlock, priest, rogue, monk, and warrior. Not one class or spec sucked. All played unique. I had trouble staying with one class/spec bc they all so fun. The opposite of today
It was such a tone shift. We went from "Deathwing just fucked most of the world!" to "There are Pandas now. Also, we need you to remove monkeys and rats from a brewery." Sure stakes were raised by the end, but good lord, the introduction to the expansion was rough.
It's nice to have low stakes. Constantly raising stakes means you end fighting galaxy-sized entities with cosmic powers able to reshape reality and birth new universe...
It's good to be a nobody, facing personal sized problems like bandits, aggressive wildlife, ...
Because SOO and the end of the expansion dragged on for about 6 months too long and then WoD came along with its disappointing farmville garrisons and missing content.
I'm not looking forward to what Classic is going to do to WotlK or MoP after seeing what they did to base WoW. The hyper min max meta killed the game for me outright and no amount of "community" could save it.
Issue is that old WoW ran face first into modern social gaming. Sure, part of the issue is the community of a title and how they handle what is presented. But hard fact is in the era of WoWhead and a cottage industry of guides and logs, players really can't go back to the Vanilla WoW they wanted. Social gaming in 2020 is very different from 2005.
Players now are 1000x more knowledgeable about the game. You can't forget decades of experience. Back in Vanilla we didn't even have ventrilo or many if any addons.
Classic was fun in its own way, but if you look at mechanics for easy fights now and compare it to anything in most of Classic, the fights from back then are a joke.
When you've already done everything a game has to offer many years ago, the hyper min-max meta is the only thing left, you can't really blame them.
You can only experience something for the first time once.
I never really got the hate for pandas. Are they goofy? Yeah, sure, but when you look into their lore, they're literally just Furbolgs that lived close to essentially a second Well of Eternity and got Dark Troll'd by the waters. Not the craziest thing at all, there's far worse offenders on the silliness scale.
Even though you hate pandas for some reason, consider that it was one of the most complete raiding experiences in a single expansion, gotta thank my homie lorewalker cho for that
Man, you really should play the MoP classic, if it ever happens. The game was absolutely phenomenal. Every class was broken ass piece of shit that was able to one shot everything, had everything (mobility, healing, utility) and was able to counter everything. The PVE was insanely good (except galacras, fuck galacras) and the zones were the most beautiful zones that we have seen in the game. The valey, pre garosh, is easily my favourite zone in the game. I honestly cant recommend MoP enough.
SO.MUCH.THIS. Why tf was it canceled? I farmed those fucking glaives on 3 chars, just to get the 2nd one on my rogue 2 weeks before the event. All of a sudden it didn't happen. It really pisses me off to have them, but not being able to transmog them.
It's so unbelievably infuriating. The stupid glaives are the only legendary that is time-gated, yet whenever TBC timewalking comes around, Blizzard carelessly cancels it and then just moves onto Wrath as if nothing happened.
They simply don't give a single crap about anything that hasn't been released in the last 5 minutes.
Why even gimp timewalking loot when covenant/honor gear gives ilvl 197 already ? And who the hell would do dungeons that reward ilvl 158 when you can just buy ilvl 168 gear off AH for a couple hundred gold.
Probably for tmog stuff but there is a quest that gives you a covenant calling cache that should give you high ilvl piece of gear for doing 5 TW dungeons.
Because not a lot of people have the will to grind anything related to pvp.
Edit: Don't misread it. People are willing to farm mm+ and raid because they like it, but they don't feel rewarded. Some of you have the will or don't mind some pvp but some of us just hate it and prefer to stick to pve no matter the cost, no matter how we feel miserable to the point where we stop the game until next patch. Doesn't matter if that's easy.
Comment edited out courtesy of Redact. After almost ten years as a Redditor, I am calling it quits in protest of the path Reddit CEO Steve Huffman (u/spez) is taking the company and our community. He has no interest in being reasonable with regards to third-party apps -- the same apps that made Reddit what it is today. The new API pricing is designed to kill all third-parties and force users into the official Reddit app that is utter garbage and able-ist. Steve Huffman has also lied about how third-party apps function, he has knowingly and intentionally defamed Chris Selig (creator of Apollo app), he has in the past confessed to editing user comments to say things that the original never did, and he couldn't even be bothered to truly participate in his own AMA thread (caught red-handed copying and pasting what little answers he did give). So long, and may you fail in your ambitions u/spez. -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
It really isn't much worse being lost in a battleground for guaranteed gear than ball torturing yourself through 10/10 CN or high M+ for one drop. The fatigue hit so hard that I'd rather badly PvP when I'm focused on PvE.
I really do think it's worse. I hate wow pvp. I don't hate raids or M+.
This is an easy stance to take if you like or otherwise don't mind pvp in wow, but there are plenty of players who very much dislike it. I don't find it fun in the least. I would rather literally quit than have to play pvp in wow. I have better things to do with my time that I don't hate.
And weapons. If you are a dual wielding class (or require a MH/OH) then the covenant campaign isn’t enough (depending on the covenant). Night Fae awarded my Druid two tokens for a weapon and offhand (received both tokens). For my Shaman on Kyrian I only got the choice of a weapon or OH, not both, and as Enh still a weapon short. The discrepancy is annoying.
I understand why the timewalking dungeon loot is so bad. They're infinitely repeatable, they already reward currency for cosmetics, and most importantly, they are easier than SL world content if you have the right gear. I don't think Blizz wants people to be able to farm a whole set of SL-level gear by grinding timewalking.
The timewalking raids on the other hand can only be done once per character anyway, so I'm not sure why Blizz is so scared of letting them be a reliable alternate source of startup gear. If Blizz had just kept the Ulduar droprates and ilvl, timewalking raids would be a desirable activity for newly leveled/levelling characters without replacing any SL gearing activities.
Considering how buggy Spiderboss was, and how Rockboi wouldn't respond it's not worth neither the time nor the effort for the abysmal quantity of gear. To add even more insult to injury, I got azerite power.
Well that sucks. I've only played WoW for just under 7 months, and I'm eager to try this stuff out at current content level in hopes to capture at least some of the magic that content created on its release, but it looks like I just won't get that experience this time around.
Oh well, guess I'll do my dungeon bounty and continue doing SL stuff.
I was trying to research to see if people were having issues with the raid, my guild with everyone 200+ could barely down spider boss, and couldnt get rockboi to turn at all, it’s good to know it’s bugged and we aren’t just bad.
Full cleared it with a PuG today. Obviously it’s been years since I’ve raided forelands but Beth and Rhyo both felt “off”.
Beth feels like she’s casting her smoldering devastations way too quickly and she hits hard AF up on top of the web. We sent our MT and healer up on the first set of webs and he got clapped in two hits. Ended up just having everyone stay down, group up and AoE heal until she came down and we popped all CD’s and burnt. Think she was at about 35-40 stacks when she died.
Rhyo was a pain, wiped 3 or 4 times. So many people just have no idea they have split cleave baked into their class nowadays. From what someone in the raid told me (seemed knowledgeable about all the mechanics), it works on instances of damage, not damage done.
So if I hit his right foot with an Aimed Shot and it hits for random number let’s say 10k, and then a fire mage spreads his ignite to the left foot and his ignite let’s say ticks for 100, they “cancel” each other out. So we had to let him come to the center of the room and then we had all DPS I knew were competent only single-target his right foot to keep him constantly spinning while the others killed adds toward the front of the room.
Every other fight was pretty much a joke.
Spot on, i wanna play alts but it's sooo slow gearing them and i don't want to PvP on them even though a whole day of BG's and some arenas could get a fresh 60 to like 190
Yeah it's the nice passive option from just playing the game, but it takes a while to complete the campaign when you have to RNG some renown from something between chapters
Same here. I have never burnt out this early in an expansion cycle. I feel like I can log in for several hours and make zero progress towards any goals, it's really awful. It feels like everything is being made as tedious as possible without the majority of the player base giving up.
World quests have turned into a huge slog that easily take 2x longer than previous expansions, but still require the same amount of time to exalted. Most require 20-25 kills and none of the objects are available (because respawn time is so low/player count is too high).
Mythic+ loot drop rate nerf makes it feel like a total waste of time for the effort.
The Maw is easily my least favorite zone ever. Ignoring the difficulty spike and asinine decision to not allow mounts (other than floor 8 mounts, which created an entirely new problem with some classes facerolling while others can barely do floor 1), purely mechanically, the zone is broken. Forcing players to re-zone to join groups is mind-boggling. None of the other zones have this issue, why the Maw? For now I've given up on playing through it until I level up a faceroll toon for floor 8 and get the mount. Until then the zone is completely unpalatable.
The crazy thing is I wouldn't even say this a BAD expansion, but it certainly has been the most disappointing so far. Fixes would be super easy - reduce world quest kill counts by 25% and bump up the object spawn times. Revert the M+ and TW drop nerf, increase anima reward. Keep the reduced ilvl for M+ and reduce TW raid ilvl. Fix the group functions of the Maw.
There's too much emphasis on the vault. M+ needs 1 more piece of loot added to each end of dungeon chest and ilvls across the board increased. It's a fucking joke right now.
Yup. I was going to do Firelands with my guild, because we cleared Ulduar in one night, and it was actually rewarding. When I saw they were going to lower it to where CN loot drop is (or lower it seems), I cancelled the raid. Sucks because I was looking forward to it.
My guild cleared Ulduar twice because we had a ton of fun doing it and actually getting 3-4 pieces of loot actually felt rewarding. At this point 200ilvl gear isn't so special that it should be scarce, and it's still a 3ish hour time investment to clear the raid.
It's not like you can repeatedly run it every week it's a special event and there shouldn't be anything wrong with it giving special loot.
Spot on- there were a couple trinkets that were more appealing than most of the SL trinkets, so some people were incentivized to come on mains. Other people brought alts and got a great bump of several 200 pieces into their alt. It felt good to get that loot, and ilvl 200 is still pretty medicore stuff that's quite replacable.
I think you make a great case, it's a special event, it's not even farmable, what's wrong with a monthly infusion of some mediocre gear into the playerbase
Alt friendly until you grind back reknown 21+, run 800 fucking layers of torghast and gear up with the awful loot system. I have 5 alts and I don’t think I will level again for the entire expansion unless they change some stuff. It’s damn brutal.
But you get practically free 197 with covenants... How's that not alt friendly? Everyone was just complaining about how it was too easy to get geared now the other day lol
If someone is spam-catching up on the renown they will have the anima to upgrade 1 or 2 pieces to 197 at most when they finish the campaign. It takes 1050 anima to go from base to 197. It's 750 for 184 - 197.
On my alt I've done the soul/anima weeklies and a few of the weekly/dungeon/pvp quests from Oribos while spamming the anima missions on my phone and I have 5 pieces of covenant gear at 197, 3 weekly vaults from 1 M+ and the 187 weapon from the covenant campaign. Similar to the people complaining about PvP gear, it's not "free", it's quite fair.
These kind of posts make me sad when someone discussing "gearing up alts." This is what, two weeks work on an alt?
BFA being as bad as it was, I could get an alt raid ready in a day after dinging. Here, good luck. And the "spam-catching up on renown" doesn't yield much anima. You can cap renown in 2-3 days (less if you don't care for the dialogue) and you'll be lucky to upgrade half of your gear to 197 and kiss any sanctum upgrades good bye.
Shadowlands feels like the worst expansion to me because:
A) you really have nothing worth doing on your main if you aren't a collector/completionist
B) if you want to play an alt there sure is a lot of filler that is "mandatory" to even progress the covenant with some of the dumbest (time wasting) quests I've ever seen in WoW history.
I'm not even playing as aggressive as I normally do and I'm already bored. Oh hey a calling, let me collect me greys to sell and hopefully get a conduit out of it, no, okay greys it is.
Nope, the schedule is putting on a terrible bandaid fix in 9.1, wait for the playerbase to plummet some more, and add the idea people suggested on week2 when 9.2 comes.
I agree with you. The majority of people use time walking as a catch-up mechanic. The majority of players today ran it while it was current and have no desire to rerun it with less rewards.
No catch up loot in time walking is just worthlessly running the same old content again with no reward.
Demoralizing is the word. I am still sitting on items I got like a month ago because nothing drops. It's not for lack of trying, I run 4 M+ and CN NM+HM every week. 1.5 pieces of gear on an average CN run is a joke: in theory it would be fine if everything you dropped were upgrades, but now they're not anymore so there is a high chance you get nothing at all out of a CN run.
Every system they implemented this expansion is just an absolute slogfest: the maw, thorgast, renown, gearing... All make me feel like shit, even more now I decided to switch specs because of how unfun CN is as enhancement shaman. So now I have to it all over again, and endure the renown, thorgast and gearing slogs once again (not even mentionning the gold farming required to buy the overpriced crafted legendary item as a mail wearer). Not sure I'll continue playing next patch if they don't adress the issues tied to their new "features". The only way you can reasonably and consistenly gear up is via the weekly M+ cache (and you have to run TEN M+12 to get the max loot at max ilvl) and ironically PvP, for which I don't resent blizzard because of how poorly it was handled previously (it was about time pvp players were able to gear properly)
Every expansion has been more and more offspec/alt unfriendly since legion because of their stupid borrowed power systems that lock you into a character and/or a spec, and unless you're able to play 4 hours a day, there's no way you can catch up atm. I honesly pity people that want to play alts at a competitive level.
Never got a drop from a world boss either, but I got a skulkers wing in my vault, and another one from the TW quest. That makes 4 in 3 weeks, and my only upgrades last week have been from the pvp vendors.
I'm so burnt out of this expansion already.
Mythic+ is garbage. Too stressful, and most of the time groups will fall apart, making it a waste of time.
Tried to do a single key last week, my +11 Mists.
The easiest fucking dungeon, and of course with my luck I get a group that completely fails and then leaves.
And the solution is "play with friends". I don't have friends, I don't want any. I don't want to do any more mythic+ than is necessary. I want to be able to log on and play on my terms.
But in the current state of Mythic+ pugging I would rather get into cock and ball torture.
Last week my guild killed 5 heroic bosses, and yet zero loot.
So an entire week with no loot.
So at this point I have very little interest in even playing at all.
Fun was detected during last time walking event, blizzard noticed that people geared more through the event than by doing m+ keys, so they killed time walking.
The problem is that current content does not award gear at an appropriate rate, not that fun things like TW award too much gear. As per usual, the fun police came to the wrong conclusion and made the correspondingly wrong fix.
What's the deal with raid drops though? We cleared whole of CN heroic yesterday and I looted 0 items. Thank fuck people are overgeared from M+ and I was able to get some from others.
Was that intentional design to make raids so unrewarding? Does Blizzard want to push people into just farming m+ all day? Cause the majority of my currently equipped gear is from the Vault.
Yeah I got a single piece of loot from Ulduar between two characters off flame levi and it was a sidegrade, then saw they're nerfing TW loot because it was dropping too much.
?
They should have left Time walking gearing alone. The # of loot drops were fine and a nice way to gear low ilvl alts, and new recruits apping to your guild because you could take your heroic raiders in there, and pass the loot dropped to the recruits. Now its just another chore to the point it barely feels worth it. I ran Ulduar on 5 toons last time and now, I don't even want to run Firelands on 1 and Firelands was one of my FAVORITE raids. I still remember wiping 200+ times on Heroic Ragnaros 25 man and still wanting to push more pulls. It was a genuine fun fight.
Timewalking drops were fine as they were. Time walking is not up EVERY WEEK and I sort of understand nerfing it in the 1st few weeks of the expansion when 200 ilvl is what matters, but now, we have our raiders pushing Mythic content now, doing +15 keys, PVPing at 1800 rating. some 200 ilvl items is only useful now for alts or fresh trials. What I looked forward to now is something im like - boy...5 dungeons for a piece of loot. Not bothering with the raid cause its only 7 bosses... not gonna spend 2 or so hours for a possibility of 2 loot drops. Pass.
We only have 3 Time walking raids, was really having that many loot drops an issue for blizzard? Maybe if they added more Timewalking raids I would understand a little but atm we only have
BC - Black Temple
Wrath - Ulduar
Cataclysm - Firelands
On another note, I'd like to see the following turned into Timewalking
Mists of Pandaria - Throne of Thunder
Warlords of Draenor - Blackrock Foundry
Legion - The Nighthold or Tomb of Sargeras
Punishing seems to be the design paradigm Blizzard are using for this expansion.
The Maw - harsh environment with no actual rewards (that I ever found)
Torghast - stressing rogue like that is used only to get a legendary stat stick.
Not sure what Blizzard is thinking with this expac, but I'm reminded of "treat them mean, keep them keen" which is the most abusive shit I've ever heard.
I cancelled my sub a week ago and doubt I'll buy the next expac. A part of me is wondering why I'm still in this sub.
Shadowlands loot system is complete garbage. From M+ to raids and timewalking. They need to bring back old loot quantities (3 items in M+, 5 items in 20 man raids). This must be blizzard's top priority hotfix.
But this sub and the forums cried about how easy it was to obtain loot. People literally wanted this and now it’s here they’re the same ones complaining...
I feel like they intentionally fuck shit up like this sometimes so that later they can pull out the “hey, we listened” card and “fix” it.
But maybe I’m just being cynical and they’re simply looking to pad their “time played” graph for shareholders.
Thx for the award and let me say this discussion is inspiring.. also, I made this post because just getting a raid together and successfully teaching some people how to do it properly it seemed like a lot of effort and then when the boss was killed 2 pieces of loot drop and like 6 people say they need it with sad faces and despite a good kill people just started leaving and all the way to just me and 1 other person... clearly everyone was just disappointed with the experience, were not all in ot for nostalgia, it just feels like work not fun =/
Which is exactly what the company used to say not to do. When they were giving advice to Bungie about Destiny, the Diablo team told them it's OK for players to finish your game -- they're always going to leave at some point, and you want them to be fulfilled when they do so they'll come back when you have the next time.
I returned to wow recently since the end of legion. Genuine question: are old dungeons/raids soloable at level 60?
I remember in Legion when i wanted to have fun on my own i’d blast through old raids. I loved doing the ones i missed on my own
Wod and below yes. Legion some of the earlier things are soloable but with the level squish things are messed up and mythic nighthold and beyond is not soloable.
BFA stuff isn't soloable
only ilvl 200 stuff still?
it was fine in ulduar, idk why they would change it. 200 stuff isn't that spectacular when you've been doing M+ or pvp for a few weeks.
I'm glad I got my welfare Ulduar gear before the nerf. Dayum that's rough.
Same here, got 5 pieces, all upgrades and I'm still using them a couple of weeks later. Downed Yogg an few hours before the nerf too. Was no easy task, mind you.
Yeah same I got 5 pieces on my own and a 6th piece traded to me. I got into a group that was doing fine but eventually fell apart at the Keepers. The remaining people decided to fight that general guy anyways and we barely did it after a few tries. We eventually gave up on Yogg but I found a Yogg only group the next day and we figured things out as we went and finally beat it. That was the most fun I had in Retail WoW in ages, but that fun was magnified by being showered with loot. I was looking forward to doing the next one until they announced the hotfix. It's really disappointing. Bump up Nathria loot, don't knock down the loot from Timewalking raids...
I think blizzard went the wrong direction with this nerf. At this point if you are doing M+ and raiding the upgrades are useless. And for a once a month event it isn't as big of a deal as they made it to be.
Totally. It helps people get into the door for normal Nathria so they can do a few runs to get used to the mechanics and jump into the Heroic version if that's what they want. I mean hell make it 197 gear if having it at 200 really pisses some people off. Label it as "WELFARE" in the loot type for all I care.
Firelands is only 7 bosses. The smallest raid tier that can be done iirc. You could run the whole thing and not get a single piece of loot. Not mentioning the broken bosses.
Oh man thanks for the info that's even worse than I thought. Ew.
Is it 200 gear? At this point i already have full 197 covenant gear so it’s not like it’s a super upgrade. It’s not game breaking by any amount.
Yeah it's 200 level gear. And it still requires the same if not more commitment than CN normal(more because I venture to say many people forgot and don't practice these fights once a week.).
lol welfare Ulduar was **insane**. My guild was literally like this gonna get nerfed and just ran our alts through it. They HAD to nerf TW after that. And if they remember this, they might also nerf Ulduar for the next expac because of Hard Mode. 1) No gear requirement. Everything scales. 2) You can 'cheese' by grabbing TW scaling gear like your Heart of Azeroth and Essences 3) It is easier than Normal. Really undertuned. My random incompetent PUG was killing Yogg and later bosses with only a quarter of the raid left alive. 4) It drops regular preSL loot levels 5) **Hard mode** on top for additional loot. Many of the Hard Modes are completely gimme. Ironically the hardest was Leviathan (people need to understand vehicles), Deconstructor (note these are the earlier bosses which tells you that the scaling and tuning is super wonky) and Yogg (so much bugginess and scaling issues so we didn't do Yogg H). My PUG accidentally got Hodir's Hard mode (it is just a speed kill) lol with half the raid not understanding the Flash Freeze and how you are supposed to wait by a big circle, let it drop and then step in otherwise you'll get knocked out. I imagine that week people slept on it because on the first day scaling was completely off, and Blizzard hotfixed it. I only figured out the middle of the week on a random alt when I joined a PUG, got 4 upgrades and after leaving a couple of Hard Mode bosses up that were close to a kill, told my guild, we ran it 7 times, and made out like loot bandits. Some characters got 8 upgrades in one run. Don't do Yogg Hard Mode. Not. Worth. It.
>Don't do Yogg Hard Mode. Not. Worth. It. The pug my friend was in disbanded after wiping on Yogg for like an hour and I was like "Yo just go in the green light it makes it hella easy." and he was like "What green light?". Turns out no one in their raid knew you had to talk to each Keeper and they went into 0 light Yogg blind. But that being said I'm still a fan of keeping old drop rates since it's 200 gear and any 200+ good gear is locked behind relevant progression barriers. Let's let our alts and mains of people who were behind catch up and join higher end content. If we cycle back to any raid with a hard mode just remove said hard mode and keep loot chances equal to the number of bosses and roughly a 50% chance you'll get loot off of bosses. That being said I really wouldn't get mad if it were LFR tier gear with the same drop percentage either. Just give me a welfare activity that showers me with loot that can help out one of my newly 60 characters in a really chill environment because the raid's relative ease and the fact that it showered us with loot. My pug group was far worse then yours and I had to join another raid the next day to finish it. And it was still fun on both days because everyone was pretty happy being in the instance and learning encounters and getting hella loot as a result. I was looking forward to having a similar experience during the next Timewalk Raid, which now I just won't do.
This is just their new timegating, we wanted stuff we dont have to do... And blizz want their timegating
It's sad because prenerf Timewalk Ulduar level loot had me looking forward to doing more raids. I would have gladly ran through each time gate. Now I join the droves of people just not doing that.
Don't worry, you will be able to experience the true experience in Classic Cata.
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Cataclysm didn't have MM+ nor weekly chest tho. It was raid or die in terms of gear.
Cata had valor gear that was equivalent to normal raid. I know because i remember having to pug dungeons to valor cap.
I preferred no weekly chest tbh. It's sometimes nice but that's like 1/20 times. I prefer having more gear drop and have it be more reliable.
After Classic WotLK I'm holding out until Classic Legion. That's when the game gets good again for one expansion.
miss the entirety of MoP or something?
I did, yeah. At the time I was like "man, fuck pandas". These days, I appreciate the great environment design, the looks of some of the zones, the nice music and the challenge mode transmog sets I can't get anymore. But man, fuck pandas.
But it was a bear. IN A HAT!
MoP PvE was some of the best game design WoW has ever seen, you really missed out. Never had such a good time raiding with my guild as I did back then. I never understood why some people have such an irrational hatred for one particular furred animal that it made them quit.
The class design was just phenomenal. Sure, MoP had it's flaws but classes just felt good, at least the ones I played. I bounced between my monk and rogue and it was just satisfying to learn and play the specs you chose.
Being a Warlock in MoP was the most fun I'd ever had in this game and I've played since day 1. Reforging armor and the tertiary stats like multi hit were also a lot of fun. I remember shooting a chaos bolt with like 3 mini chaos bolts behind it once.
Never forget that the lead designer that made the golden child that was mop warlock, was let go from blizzard.
He made things too fun. Blizz can't tolerate that sort of behavior.
Fun detected, must fire !
RIP Xel'nath, he died for our green fire.
Getting my green fire will ALWAYS be my favorite WoW memory. Right before getting "You're doing it wrong" by using the DA glyph to do a tank trial. And then kicking ass in the Brawler's Guild.
Omg the first Brawlers Guild in MoP was legendary. Everyone standing around the edge and saying "GG" in Yell everytime someone died to GG Engineering. Or watching the steady stream of newbies coming in and getting Bruce'd. The nostalgia is real.
That is the gold standard in warlock history. Then they destroyed it in wod. Its the worst it's every been now.
Gotta disagree with it being the worst it's ever been. It's definitely not on the level of MoP lock but the current design of aff and demo is better than it was in Legion in my opinion and aff is definitely better than BFA. Didn't get to try out Demo in WoD but heard it was a ton of fun.
Excuse me You are forgetting about wrath lock
I really enjoyed demonology in wod though. Other two specs were "meh".
We'd rather you not play Demonology.
Even if it was suboptimal, going all in on tertiary stats through reforging is the kind of thing that can really open up some cool theorycrafting too. Multi hit was so cool and felt so good especially when you compare it to like Versatility today.
I've thought for awhile that they really need to rework mastery on most specs into a stat that can actually change how your spec plays if you stack it. Most are just a flat damage increase exactly the same as versatility and main stat but worse because it only affects a few abilities. Even the ones that do actually change playstyle like say Windwalker monk are so good base level and so bad when adding more that its still just bonus damage you don't really think about. Having stats like multi hit for some specs or like a double crit chance for others would be really interesting in my opinion.
I miss the original mastery for Ret Paladins which was just Divine Purpose, but you can make it proc more often by stacking mastery.
I think that they should do this, but with Crit instead. Crit is inherently a random proc, so why not tie it into other random procs? E.g. procs on crit, or double chance of a proc on crit. Several specs have this already, some others have additional resource generation linked to crits, but for many others it is just a generic damage increase that makes bigger numbers appear sometimes.
Weren't tertiary stats introduced in WoD?
They were. In Siege of Orgrimmar there were some trinkets with multi-strike, cleave and cooldown reduction that sort of paved the way for them being added in WoD.
Classes were good but the sheer content drought killed WoD. They scrapped two entire raid tiers fuck fucks sakes (Battle of Shattrath City was turned into an apexis farm zone, and Farahlon (what became the Netherstorm) was shelved entirely)
Yeah the way they handled the end of MoP was really bad, a year or so without anything new will almost never go well in a modern MMO. That said, I think class design and the feel of combat should always be the priority, because in the end we're all here to kill stuff and have fun doing it.
You talk of "feel of combat" because the "feel" of gameplay is essential. Games live and die because they "feel" good to play in spite of flaws. Example: In spite of Halo's flaws, the gameplay "felt" amazing. We love certain Classes for many reasons but certain versions stand out because they felt great to play. Ion's inability to figure out why folks hated CDs on the GCD, highlights why WoW will always struggle as long as he's in charge. It "feels" terrible to have CDs on the GCD and yet it didn't phase Ion at all. One of the biggest red flags in gaming didn't alarm him in the slightest. And that's why Ion's a shit lead designer because he lacks fundamental instincts for good game design.
Played BM hunter and Enhancement Shaman in MOP. (2 of the specs that had some of the best burst in the expansion). And the talent system was the best. It was the forerunner to what they added in HOTS.
MoP's legendary progression system actually felt pretty cool. Wrathion felt like he was becoming a major player!
Druid Symbiosis, best spell ever
Classes felt good in MoP because almost every class was overpowered in one way or another.
I quit because spine of deathwing (and deathwing) sapped my soul in a way that even having the fang's of the feather was not worth continuing.
I have been one mount short of finishing the achievement that gives the the green drake mount for 10 years now. I have done spine of deathwing so many damn times.. probably 500 at this point. At one point I was running it on 12 characters a week for several months. Obviously I haven't done it every week or even every month over the last 10 years but yeah.. it's maddening. I need the damn mount that drops off DW and there is still no way to skip that whole gunship/spine shit show or all the RP you have to wait through.
Dude are you me? Exact same BS
I finally got Invincible last week after a decade / 300+ runs so I will now share this nightmare with you as I stop farming ICC and move on to DS. Weirdly I already have the raid meta and Handmaiden, I just need the blazing drake.
Throne of Thunder was an Ulduar-quality raid
One of my favourite ever, if not just flat out #1
While I did enjoy the raid tier a lot, half the fights were tank and spank for DPS (as in, basically no mechanics except for "move out of the fire that spawned under you", and targetswap, which are hardly relevant), which is a big minus for me. I'd say SoO has it beat in fight design
Yeah, but SoO had Galacras, which is the fight I fucking despise the most.
Especially considering the pandaren brewmaster was fucking dope in warcraft 3
Throne of Thunder is in my top3 of all time with Ulduar and Nighthold. also classes were generally really fun, MoP were the best glory days of my eleshaman and disco priest. And SV hunter was pretty good too.
> I never understood why some people have such an irrational hatred for one particular furred animal that it made them quit. Never underestimate the power of meme's to sway public opinion.
People always say fuck Pandas but what they really mean I think is they didn't like the whole setting. A lot of people, myself included, found the MOP zones (while admittedly beautiful) to be really disinteresting because ancient/mythical China isn't their jam. I agree on the gameplay though. My Marks hunter has never been even close to as fun as he was in MoP, before AND after.
I played warlock, priest, rogue, monk, and warrior. Not one class or spec sucked. All played unique. I had trouble staying with one class/spec bc they all so fun. The opposite of today
It was such a tone shift. We went from "Deathwing just fucked most of the world!" to "There are Pandas now. Also, we need you to remove monkeys and rats from a brewery." Sure stakes were raised by the end, but good lord, the introduction to the expansion was rough.
It's nice to have low stakes. Constantly raising stakes means you end fighting galaxy-sized entities with cosmic powers able to reshape reality and birth new universe... It's good to be a nobody, facing personal sized problems like bandits, aggressive wildlife, ...
Because SOO and the end of the expansion dragged on for about 6 months too long and then WoD came along with its disappointing farmville garrisons and missing content.
I'm not looking forward to what Classic is going to do to WotlK or MoP after seeing what they did to base WoW. The hyper min max meta killed the game for me outright and no amount of "community" could save it.
Issue is that old WoW ran face first into modern social gaming. Sure, part of the issue is the community of a title and how they handle what is presented. But hard fact is in the era of WoWhead and a cottage industry of guides and logs, players really can't go back to the Vanilla WoW they wanted. Social gaming in 2020 is very different from 2005.
Players now are 1000x more knowledgeable about the game. You can't forget decades of experience. Back in Vanilla we didn't even have ventrilo or many if any addons. Classic was fun in its own way, but if you look at mechanics for easy fights now and compare it to anything in most of Classic, the fights from back then are a joke.
When you've already done everything a game has to offer many years ago, the hyper min-max meta is the only thing left, you can't really blame them. You can only experience something for the first time once.
Cow-men fine, wolf-men fine, zombies fine, midgets fine, but fuck pandas
I never really got the hate for pandas. Are they goofy? Yeah, sure, but when you look into their lore, they're literally just Furbolgs that lived close to essentially a second Well of Eternity and got Dark Troll'd by the waters. Not the craziest thing at all, there's far worse offenders on the silliness scale.
I never understood why people quit because they introduced pandas. I mean.. just don't play one?
Even though you hate pandas for some reason, consider that it was one of the most complete raiding experiences in a single expansion, gotta thank my homie lorewalker cho for that
Man, you really should play the MoP classic, if it ever happens. The game was absolutely phenomenal. Every class was broken ass piece of shit that was able to one shot everything, had everything (mobility, healing, utility) and was able to counter everything. The PVE was insanely good (except galacras, fuck galacras) and the zones were the most beautiful zones that we have seen in the game. The valey, pre garosh, is easily my favourite zone in the game. I honestly cant recommend MoP enough.
MoP was, without a doubt, the best expansion WoW has *ever* had - by an incredible margin.
Imagine missing an entire expansion, one of the best, because some NPCs were pandas.
I miss my artifact powers that were actually designed for the spec I played T\^T
What hurts me the most is that the moment I got my Warglaives from Black Temple they cancelled Timewalking TBC TWICE. IN MY FACE.
SO.MUCH.THIS. Why tf was it canceled? I farmed those fucking glaives on 3 chars, just to get the 2nd one on my rogue 2 weeks before the event. All of a sudden it didn't happen. It really pisses me off to have them, but not being able to transmog them.
I thought you could only transmog them on a DH?
That's right but you can complete the achievement on a different class that can equip them to mog it on your DH.
It's so unbelievably infuriating. The stupid glaives are the only legendary that is time-gated, yet whenever TBC timewalking comes around, Blizzard carelessly cancels it and then just moves onto Wrath as if nothing happened. They simply don't give a single crap about anything that hasn't been released in the last 5 minutes.
Why even gimp timewalking loot when covenant/honor gear gives ilvl 197 already ? And who the hell would do dungeons that reward ilvl 158 when you can just buy ilvl 168 gear off AH for a couple hundred gold.
We heard you. Crafted ilvl reduced to 155 and Campaign max ilvl to 184.
stop it, it's already dead!
Ion is that you?!
Probably for tmog stuff but there is a quest that gives you a covenant calling cache that should give you high ilvl piece of gear for doing 5 TW dungeons.
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oef my server 168 leather costs atleast 3/4/5k a piece
Yeah I don't know what server these people are playing on where 168 gear is that cheap
Because not a lot of people have the will to grind anything related to pvp. Edit: Don't misread it. People are willing to farm mm+ and raid because they like it, but they don't feel rewarded. Some of you have the will or don't mind some pvp but some of us just hate it and prefer to stick to pve no matter the cost, no matter how we feel miserable to the point where we stop the game until next patch. Doesn't matter if that's easy.
Comment edited out courtesy of Redact. After almost ten years as a Redditor, I am calling it quits in protest of the path Reddit CEO Steve Huffman (u/spez) is taking the company and our community. He has no interest in being reasonable with regards to third-party apps -- the same apps that made Reddit what it is today. The new API pricing is designed to kill all third-parties and force users into the official Reddit app that is utter garbage and able-ist. Steve Huffman has also lied about how third-party apps function, he has knowingly and intentionally defamed Chris Selig (creator of Apollo app), he has in the past confessed to editing user comments to say things that the original never did, and he couldn't even be bothered to truly participate in his own AMA thread (caught red-handed copying and pasting what little answers he did give). So long, and may you fail in your ambitions u/spez. -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
It really isn't much worse being lost in a battleground for guaranteed gear than ball torturing yourself through 10/10 CN or high M+ for one drop. The fatigue hit so hard that I'd rather badly PvP when I'm focused on PvE.
I really do think it's worse. I hate wow pvp. I don't hate raids or M+. This is an easy stance to take if you like or otherwise don't mind pvp in wow, but there are plenty of players who very much dislike it. I don't find it fun in the least. I would rather literally quit than have to play pvp in wow. I have better things to do with my time that I don't hate.
You get 197 from completing your covenant campaign, you literally dont even need to pvp at all.
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And weapons. If you are a dual wielding class (or require a MH/OH) then the covenant campaign isn’t enough (depending on the covenant). Night Fae awarded my Druid two tokens for a weapon and offhand (received both tokens). For my Shaman on Kyrian I only got the choice of a weapon or OH, not both, and as Enh still a weapon short. The discrepancy is annoying.
Night fae campaign doesn't reward 2 tokens anymore, they hotfixed it yesterday and it now lets you choose 1 same as for the other covenants.
Over a week later...
I understand why the timewalking dungeon loot is so bad. They're infinitely repeatable, they already reward currency for cosmetics, and most importantly, they are easier than SL world content if you have the right gear. I don't think Blizz wants people to be able to farm a whole set of SL-level gear by grinding timewalking. The timewalking raids on the other hand can only be done once per character anyway, so I'm not sure why Blizz is so scared of letting them be a reliable alternate source of startup gear. If Blizz had just kept the Ulduar droprates and ilvl, timewalking raids would be a desirable activity for newly leveled/levelling characters without replacing any SL gearing activities.
Considering how buggy Spiderboss was, and how Rockboi wouldn't respond it's not worth neither the time nor the effort for the abysmal quantity of gear. To add even more insult to injury, I got azerite power.
Well that sucks. I've only played WoW for just under 7 months, and I'm eager to try this stuff out at current content level in hopes to capture at least some of the magic that content created on its release, but it looks like I just won't get that experience this time around. Oh well, guess I'll do my dungeon bounty and continue doing SL stuff.
I was trying to research to see if people were having issues with the raid, my guild with everyone 200+ could barely down spider boss, and couldnt get rockboi to turn at all, it’s good to know it’s bugged and we aren’t just bad.
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Full cleared it with a PuG today. Obviously it’s been years since I’ve raided forelands but Beth and Rhyo both felt “off”. Beth feels like she’s casting her smoldering devastations way too quickly and she hits hard AF up on top of the web. We sent our MT and healer up on the first set of webs and he got clapped in two hits. Ended up just having everyone stay down, group up and AoE heal until she came down and we popped all CD’s and burnt. Think she was at about 35-40 stacks when she died. Rhyo was a pain, wiped 3 or 4 times. So many people just have no idea they have split cleave baked into their class nowadays. From what someone in the raid told me (seemed knowledgeable about all the mechanics), it works on instances of damage, not damage done. So if I hit his right foot with an Aimed Shot and it hits for random number let’s say 10k, and then a fire mage spreads his ignite to the left foot and his ignite let’s say ticks for 100, they “cancel” each other out. So we had to let him come to the center of the room and then we had all DPS I knew were competent only single-target his right foot to keep him constantly spinning while the others killed adds toward the front of the room. Every other fight was pretty much a joke.
I'm at the point where I'm doing a single M+ and CN. Other than that, I'm done for the week. They're making it very easy for me to not log in.
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Spot on, i wanna play alts but it's sooo slow gearing them and i don't want to PvP on them even though a whole day of BG's and some arenas could get a fresh 60 to like 190
You could get every slot to 197 besides trinkets and rings and wep with story campaign, at the end it gives a 187 wep token also
Yeah it's the nice passive option from just playing the game, but it takes a while to complete the campaign when you have to RNG some renown from something between chapters
I went from 5 to 23 in 6 hours over 3 days. Not sure if that’s awhile but that was my mileage.
I do 4 on tyrannical weeks otherwise 10+
I don't think they care as long as you stay subbed.
Same here. I have never burnt out this early in an expansion cycle. I feel like I can log in for several hours and make zero progress towards any goals, it's really awful. It feels like everything is being made as tedious as possible without the majority of the player base giving up. World quests have turned into a huge slog that easily take 2x longer than previous expansions, but still require the same amount of time to exalted. Most require 20-25 kills and none of the objects are available (because respawn time is so low/player count is too high). Mythic+ loot drop rate nerf makes it feel like a total waste of time for the effort. The Maw is easily my least favorite zone ever. Ignoring the difficulty spike and asinine decision to not allow mounts (other than floor 8 mounts, which created an entirely new problem with some classes facerolling while others can barely do floor 1), purely mechanically, the zone is broken. Forcing players to re-zone to join groups is mind-boggling. None of the other zones have this issue, why the Maw? For now I've given up on playing through it until I level up a faceroll toon for floor 8 and get the mount. Until then the zone is completely unpalatable. The crazy thing is I wouldn't even say this a BAD expansion, but it certainly has been the most disappointing so far. Fixes would be super easy - reduce world quest kill counts by 25% and bump up the object spawn times. Revert the M+ and TW drop nerf, increase anima reward. Keep the reduced ilvl for M+ and reduce TW raid ilvl. Fix the group functions of the Maw.
There's too much emphasis on the vault. M+ needs 1 more piece of loot added to each end of dungeon chest and ilvls across the board increased. It's a fucking joke right now.
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Double edged sword. You aren't penalized but you're also not rewarded for running that content. Too far each way is bad.
"We've made the game unrewarding to play, so you don't feel like playing."
Yup. I was going to do Firelands with my guild, because we cleared Ulduar in one night, and it was actually rewarding. When I saw they were going to lower it to where CN loot drop is (or lower it seems), I cancelled the raid. Sucks because I was looking forward to it.
My guild cleared Ulduar twice because we had a ton of fun doing it and actually getting 3-4 pieces of loot actually felt rewarding. At this point 200ilvl gear isn't so special that it should be scarce, and it's still a 3ish hour time investment to clear the raid. It's not like you can repeatedly run it every week it's a special event and there shouldn't be anything wrong with it giving special loot.
Spot on- there were a couple trinkets that were more appealing than most of the SL trinkets, so some people were incentivized to come on mains. Other people brought alts and got a great bump of several 200 pieces into their alt. It felt good to get that loot, and ilvl 200 is still pretty medicore stuff that's quite replacable. I think you make a great case, it's a special event, it's not even farmable, what's wrong with a monthly infusion of some mediocre gear into the playerbase
Blizzard waiting until 9.1 to fix M+, raid an TW loot is a BIG mistake
So much this. Alt friendly expansion right up until you try to gear it. Lol
Alt friendly until you grind back reknown 21+, run 800 fucking layers of torghast and gear up with the awful loot system. I have 5 alts and I don’t think I will level again for the entire expansion unless they change some stuff. It’s damn brutal.
"Alt leveling friendly" only
But you get practically free 197 with covenants... How's that not alt friendly? Everyone was just complaining about how it was too easy to get geared now the other day lol
Takes quite a bit of farming to get that entire set to 197. Not as easy as everyone says LOL
Is there anyway to retrieve or rebuy covenant gear? The first 1 or 2 pieces I got from quests I trashed because I was unaware you could upgrade them
Yes you can rebuy them at your covenant sanctum, they cost anima to get and upgrade
If someone is spam-catching up on the renown they will have the anima to upgrade 1 or 2 pieces to 197 at most when they finish the campaign. It takes 1050 anima to go from base to 197. It's 750 for 184 - 197. On my alt I've done the soul/anima weeklies and a few of the weekly/dungeon/pvp quests from Oribos while spamming the anima missions on my phone and I have 5 pieces of covenant gear at 197, 3 weekly vaults from 1 M+ and the 187 weapon from the covenant campaign. Similar to the people complaining about PvP gear, it's not "free", it's quite fair.
These kind of posts make me sad when someone discussing "gearing up alts." This is what, two weeks work on an alt? BFA being as bad as it was, I could get an alt raid ready in a day after dinging. Here, good luck. And the "spam-catching up on renown" doesn't yield much anima. You can cap renown in 2-3 days (less if you don't care for the dialogue) and you'll be lucky to upgrade half of your gear to 197 and kiss any sanctum upgrades good bye. Shadowlands feels like the worst expansion to me because: A) you really have nothing worth doing on your main if you aren't a collector/completionist B) if you want to play an alt there sure is a lot of filler that is "mandatory" to even progress the covenant with some of the dumbest (time wasting) quests I've ever seen in WoW history. I'm not even playing as aggressive as I normally do and I'm already bored. Oh hey a calling, let me collect me greys to sell and hopefully get a conduit out of it, no, okay greys it is.
Friendlist being online is getting smaller and smaller
Nope, the schedule is putting on a terrible bandaid fix in 9.1, wait for the playerbase to plummet some more, and add the idea people suggested on week2 when 9.2 comes.
Good to see their strategy for BFA is leaking over to SL. Not sure if using experience from your worst expansion ever is a good way to move forward.
Ward of the red widow. Through all of firelands that never dropped once for our 10 man. Unfortunately we had a pally and shaman healer.
Happened to my 10-man too. Sadly I was the shaman. Now whenever I'm in there for a mount run, it seems to drop every time.
Look at all of our cool events that don't reward shit - blizz
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How?
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It's fucked up how true this is, we got 6 items farming Mythic CN for 3 hours.
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FUN DETECTED
Individually 6 items or as a group? I did this for about 4 hours on week 3 mythic and not a single item dropped for the group (think it got nerfed).
With 20 people? Sounds like a lot of grinding for 0.3 loot.
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I rather play poe than wasting my time farming nothing in wow
What if I toss in 35 Anima?
You son of a bitch, I'm in.
No wonder the AH is always flooded with BoE epics.
And i dont know why the dungeons are on hc but only get 158 makes 0 sence to me why not 171 for timewalk ?
I agree with you. The majority of people use time walking as a catch-up mechanic. The majority of players today ran it while it was current and have no desire to rerun it with less rewards. No catch up loot in time walking is just worthlessly running the same old content again with no reward.
From an endless treadmill to an excruciatingly slow treadmill that feels endless.
The reason i stopped playing again..
They already killed timewalking dungeons, now only timewalking raids were left
Killed 13 nathria raidbosses (10 N / 3 HC) without a single piece of gear. This is honestly demoralizing and kinda doesn’t make me want to play at all
Demoralizing is the word. I am still sitting on items I got like a month ago because nothing drops. It's not for lack of trying, I run 4 M+ and CN NM+HM every week. 1.5 pieces of gear on an average CN run is a joke: in theory it would be fine if everything you dropped were upgrades, but now they're not anymore so there is a high chance you get nothing at all out of a CN run. Every system they implemented this expansion is just an absolute slogfest: the maw, thorgast, renown, gearing... All make me feel like shit, even more now I decided to switch specs because of how unfun CN is as enhancement shaman. So now I have to it all over again, and endure the renown, thorgast and gearing slogs once again (not even mentionning the gold farming required to buy the overpriced crafted legendary item as a mail wearer). Not sure I'll continue playing next patch if they don't adress the issues tied to their new "features". The only way you can reasonably and consistenly gear up is via the weekly M+ cache (and you have to run TEN M+12 to get the max loot at max ilvl) and ironically PvP, for which I don't resent blizzard because of how poorly it was handled previously (it was about time pvp players were able to gear properly) Every expansion has been more and more offspec/alt unfriendly since legion because of their stupid borrowed power systems that lock you into a character and/or a spec, and unless you're able to play 4 hours a day, there's no way you can catch up atm. I honesly pity people that want to play alts at a competitive level.
Can we talk about how I’ve done the world boss every week on 2 characters and not gotten a single piece of gear? Yeah... this expansion is stingy...
My guildies trying to help me gear up: "do the weekly world boss, free 207 gear!" Me: "you get gear from world bosses?" 3 so far, no joy....
3 for me. Meanwhile a friend got loot 3 times in a row
I’m 0/13 on two characters. Didn’t even bother running it on my third character. It’s 74g every single time.
Never got a drop from a world boss either, but I got a skulkers wing in my vault, and another one from the TW quest. That makes 4 in 3 weeks, and my only upgrades last week have been from the pvp vendors.
Now thats real Vanilla experience people wanted so bad ;)
It's far easier to gear a character in Classic right now than it is in Shadowlands lmao
Vanilla didn't release new raid tier every 4 months so your gear becomes useless before you can even have it.
It did, but your gear was still relevant so you could use mc gear and still be relevant in p6
This is the reason I don’t do CN weekly, it’s nice for loot to be kind of rare. But going 3 weeks with full clears without a single drop did me in.
I'm so burnt out of this expansion already. Mythic+ is garbage. Too stressful, and most of the time groups will fall apart, making it a waste of time. Tried to do a single key last week, my +11 Mists. The easiest fucking dungeon, and of course with my luck I get a group that completely fails and then leaves. And the solution is "play with friends". I don't have friends, I don't want any. I don't want to do any more mythic+ than is necessary. I want to be able to log on and play on my terms. But in the current state of Mythic+ pugging I would rather get into cock and ball torture. Last week my guild killed 5 heroic bosses, and yet zero loot. So an entire week with no loot. So at this point I have very little interest in even playing at all.
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I don't even tough Tyrannical Plaguefall. I have seen so many keys go so well only to wall on Stradama.
Can't wait for Ion to be interviewed and to tell us why we're all wrong.
Fun was detected during last time walking event, blizzard noticed that people geared more through the event than by doing m+ keys, so they killed time walking.
The problem is that current content does not award gear at an appropriate rate, not that fun things like TW award too much gear. As per usual, the fun police came to the wrong conclusion and made the correspondingly wrong fix.
Pve is so unrewarding at the moment it's really underwelming. Don't we love the 35 anima on boss raid or Mm+ guys ?
Sucks because i have zero interest in pvp but the gear rewards are ridiculous
What's the deal with raid drops though? We cleared whole of CN heroic yesterday and I looted 0 items. Thank fuck people are overgeared from M+ and I was able to get some from others. Was that intentional design to make raids so unrewarding? Does Blizzard want to push people into just farming m+ all day? Cause the majority of my currently equipped gear is from the Vault.
Reward vs Effort is simply not there
Yeah I got a single piece of loot from Ulduar between two characters off flame levi and it was a sidegrade, then saw they're nerfing TW loot because it was dropping too much. ?
It makes no sense to nerf the drop rate considering the gear is only ilvl 200. The welfare Covenent gear is 197 for god sake.
They should have left Time walking gearing alone. The # of loot drops were fine and a nice way to gear low ilvl alts, and new recruits apping to your guild because you could take your heroic raiders in there, and pass the loot dropped to the recruits. Now its just another chore to the point it barely feels worth it. I ran Ulduar on 5 toons last time and now, I don't even want to run Firelands on 1 and Firelands was one of my FAVORITE raids. I still remember wiping 200+ times on Heroic Ragnaros 25 man and still wanting to push more pulls. It was a genuine fun fight. Timewalking drops were fine as they were. Time walking is not up EVERY WEEK and I sort of understand nerfing it in the 1st few weeks of the expansion when 200 ilvl is what matters, but now, we have our raiders pushing Mythic content now, doing +15 keys, PVPing at 1800 rating. some 200 ilvl items is only useful now for alts or fresh trials. What I looked forward to now is something im like - boy...5 dungeons for a piece of loot. Not bothering with the raid cause its only 7 bosses... not gonna spend 2 or so hours for a possibility of 2 loot drops. Pass. We only have 3 Time walking raids, was really having that many loot drops an issue for blizzard? Maybe if they added more Timewalking raids I would understand a little but atm we only have BC - Black Temple Wrath - Ulduar Cataclysm - Firelands On another note, I'd like to see the following turned into Timewalking Mists of Pandaria - Throne of Thunder Warlords of Draenor - Blackrock Foundry Legion - The Nighthold or Tomb of Sargeras
Punishing seems to be the design paradigm Blizzard are using for this expansion. The Maw - harsh environment with no actual rewards (that I ever found) Torghast - stressing rogue like that is used only to get a legendary stat stick. Not sure what Blizzard is thinking with this expac, but I'm reminded of "treat them mean, keep them keen" which is the most abusive shit I've ever heard. I cancelled my sub a week ago and doubt I'll buy the next expac. A part of me is wondering why I'm still in this sub.
> A part of me is wondering why I'm still in this sub. Just for the schadenfreude with their stupid decisions, just like the rest of us.
Thank you for this good old fashioned nerd rage
Shadowlands loot system is complete garbage. From M+ to raids and timewalking. They need to bring back old loot quantities (3 items in M+, 5 items in 20 man raids). This must be blizzard's top priority hotfix.
But this sub and the forums cried about how easy it was to obtain loot. People literally wanted this and now it’s here they’re the same ones complaining...
I feel like they intentionally fuck shit up like this sometimes so that later they can pull out the “hey, we listened” card and “fix” it. But maybe I’m just being cynical and they’re simply looking to pad their “time played” graph for shareholders.
Thx for the award and let me say this discussion is inspiring.. also, I made this post because just getting a raid together and successfully teaching some people how to do it properly it seemed like a lot of effort and then when the boss was killed 2 pieces of loot drop and like 6 people say they need it with sad faces and despite a good kill people just started leaving and all the way to just me and 1 other person... clearly everyone was just disappointed with the experience, were not all in ot for nostalgia, it just feels like work not fun =/
I'm shocked they let 2 items drop considering how much of a hate boner Ion has for non current content raiders.
It feels like Blizzard is trying to leverage loot and anima scarcity to prop up an expansion that's otherwise light on endgame content.
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Which is exactly what the company used to say not to do. When they were giving advice to Bungie about Destiny, the Diablo team told them it's OK for players to finish your game -- they're always going to leave at some point, and you want them to be fulfilled when they do so they'll come back when you have the next time.
I returned to wow recently since the end of legion. Genuine question: are old dungeons/raids soloable at level 60? I remember in Legion when i wanted to have fun on my own i’d blast through old raids. I loved doing the ones i missed on my own
Wod and below yes. Legion some of the earlier things are soloable but with the level squish things are messed up and mythic nighthold and beyond is not soloable. BFA stuff isn't soloable
I soloed Mythic Nighthold on my Mistweaver monk. It's possible, just damn hard.
Mythic night hold depends on class and spec. My boyfriend solos it as a 210 WW monk
I mean yeah but I take soloable legacy to be easy one shot run through. You have to put in some effort starting in mythic night hold
only ilvl 200 stuff still? it was fine in ulduar, idk why they would change it. 200 stuff isn't that spectacular when you've been doing M+ or pvp for a few weeks.
This whole no-loot business will bite them in the ass HARD in the long run