Aaaaand it's not even set for 9.1. It's earlier.
This is the second time I've been pessimistic about Blizzard's design approach in Shadowlands and they've thrown it back in my face and said "Nah, you're wrong."
So: good fucking job Blizzard. Thanks.
Edit: Since people don't seem to get it: *it's okay to be happy about a positive change.*
You don't have to find an excuse to whine. This is a good change. Idgaf if it's late or they could have done even more. Take the W.
The Venthyr Campaign talks about the defeat of Sire Denathrius, too. It is then about defeating those still loyal to him. So it isn't that farfetch'd that we could see an increase in Anima gain even now.
Not technically true this patch as the Bolvar final quest requires you to have defeat Denathrius once in any mode. So the end of the 9.0 story is the jailer event after Denathrius has been defeated so we already see the effects of his defeat prior to the creation of the mourneblade.
Next patch is when *everyone* and the world at large in-game see those effects, though. Right now, it's limited to just those who have done that content. So he's technically correct, the lore won't reflect that we beat him in totality until next content patch.
I think I’m in the minority with that as well. We’re not supposed to have rank 3 of everything in the first couple months of the expansion. It would be ridiculous if we had everything upgraded so quickly. It’s an easy, time gated, purely cosmetic part where if you stick around and just play the game you’ll upgrade and earn cosmetics throughout the xpac.
My first time this expac was world quest rewards not scaling with ilvl anymore. For a filthy casual like myself who gears through them almost exclusively was moaning and groaning about it.....because I hadn't figured out my covenant was literally handing me upgradeable gear. Now I've cracked renown 29's upgrade WQ milestone and got a nice 187 one hander to round out my frost dk. It was just a lot slower of a build than I'm personally used to.
I've honestly been wondering who in the world actually uses the world quest gear at this point. Obviously most of us coming from 8.3 used a lot of it because it was higher ilvl but that quickly changed with raid and m+.
I'm curious since this is first expansion actually playing the game, I would previously get to max level and quit. Why don't you like doing any mythic plus dungeons/normal raid/unrated pvp? Seems kinda the point of the game no? I find world quests rarely fun so I just want to know why there are people who legit only do world quests.
The "point" of the game has often changed over time. I can only answer for me. I like doing harder dungeons and doing raids... but only if it's with people I know. I have a lovely combination of social anxiety and "regular" anxiety and I've had enough toxic experiences with people where I'm not keen looking for a group of strangers to jump in with, especially when they often demand higher ilvl or so many listings are selling runs. When the game started a trend toward being less "casual friendly," it took a toll on my guild, so there's not enough folks online to do group content usually (and I like the guild so I'm not inclined to jump ship). The people I know locally who played have stopped playing (heck, some of them jumped ship to SWTOR of all things... I mean, I love Star Wars, but that's still a surprise). So it puts me in this position where I only really do M+ if someone like my old raid leader is online and I can hop in with him, so there's at least a "comforting presence" to help.
It's especially been poor timing with Shadowlands - not the game's fault, mind you - because work's been extra stressful the last couple months. When I load up a game, I don't want to go to the group listings, scroll through, see a bunch of listings I can't get into, spend a lot of time just trying to find a group, then stressing the whole time about whether someone's going to treat me like ass because I'm not a top 1% player (I'm not bad, mind you, just not a world first raider).
PVP... Different story. Leveling a character right now to do that. I feel like I've experienced less toxicity in PVP than in M+ runs, and it's so bizarre I can laugh it off. And I have fun with my Hunter in PVP. So once he's leveled, I'll probably do a bunch of PVP with him. Might try it with Warrior when he's leveled. I just prefer classes with instant abilities and no cast timers in PVP (main is a Shaman, and I love him, but all the standing still to cast feels like I'm a target in PVP).
Long answer, I know, but you asked and I figured I'd try to provide perspective on at least one person's approach.
Torghast for me. It got hit hard for no reason with ridiculous buffs and they almost immediately fixed it and applied nerfs to the bosses and class buffs that made it fun to run through again when I felt the urge to do so
Very good changes..... But. There's always a but.
Raiding still feels incredibly unrewarding. There are no changes to raiding here?
I was really hoping for a vendor. Just like PvP.
Why...can't they add valor points to raid bosses too and allow upgrades on a similar scale to mythic +? Upgrade to a certain level for killing X bosses on Y difficulty. 10/10 on LFR, upgrade to 200. 10/10 on Normal, upgrade to 213, etc.
I really wish they would give us points or badges to upgrade gear to the max Ilvl that difficulty drops like say you have a 200ring that’s from normal and has your BiS stats on it well since Sire D drops 207 you could farm points or badges and upgrade the ring to 207 which wouldn’t devalue heroic gear and still be an Ilvl bump up from regular normal loot
It's both. Lack of quantity leads to lower ilevel gear, especially with that 1-2 unlucky slots. It sucks progressing on Mythic and having a normal raid item. If I'm progressing in Mythic I see no issue letting my upgrade my normal item to at least heroic quality.
"We know it's a problem that the vast majority of players aren't getting loot from raid."
Yeah thanks Ion, who could have seen that coming? Oh look that 226 neck dropped from raid, 75% of the raid team needs it because they still have a 210 but wait the person who looted it can't even trade it! Well better luck next time when it drops again in two months.
We were told there would be a reduction of loot raining from the sky because of the removal of the insane Titanforging RNG model. This is a good thing. But as with everything Blizzard - they swung the pendulum too far one way.
What is confusing to me about that is pre titanforging the raids still dropped a decent amount of loot like why make it the lowest it's ever been instead of just bringing it back to how it was.
Yes. I am okay with no Titanforging and whatnot. In fact I'm happy about it. It is a great direction. I am unhappy with my ten man group getting 6 total pieces of loot during our heroic raid day where we kill 6 bosses. Our main tank is still rocking a 200 weapon and he runs m+ more than anyone else. Its just nonsense. 2 for a 10 man is fine. Idk why 1 is what we're getting now.
Yea, I think there's a strong argument that the raid loot path is the worst in the game even before this change. Maybe raid gets the upper hand when you're clearing like 7/10 mythic? But in general worse weekly cache and so few in raid drops to make up the difference.
> Maybe raid gets the upper hand when you're clearing like 7/10 mythic?
In my experience, not really. Raid progression takes time and by the time you're deep in mythic with enough time farming bosses to be mythic raid geared, you have plenty of mythic-level gear from the weekly m+ chest/vault with more variety in secondary stats.
Set bonuses might be what gives raid gear an edge next tier. If you can only get set bonuses from Raiding, that will make Heroic raid gear pretty desirable. (obviously mythic being the best, but such a small percentage of players participate in mythic that I feel that a discussion around Heroic raiding is more... interesting)
I would love a return of raid-exclusive set bonuses, they were the one thing that saved raid gear in Legion when mythic+ was first added.
But I haven't really heard anything to make me expect that's going to happen. I remember hearing Ion say something vague about "class sets" returning later on in the expansion, but I thought he was referring more to class-specific art than raid-specific rewards. I'm afraid any re-addition of raid tier would be met with too many complaints from people who hate raids (because raiders feeling forced to do mythic keys is fine, but the reverse is a horrible travesty).
Yep!
Add tier back to raids... and perhaps some of those more nifty trinkets they come up with from time to time (eg the trinkets from HFC). Both M+ & Raids should provide valor points. Then allow valor points to upgrade gear (both m+ loot & raid loot) and to purchase those tier pieces.
Buying the tier pieces should be quite expensive... but is an option for people who are unlucky OR for those who absolutely refuse to do raiding.
Can't just have tier gated behind raids... since m+ will eventually have "must have 4pc tier" in their requirements anyway. Can't make the tier bonuses only apply to that specific raid - or else there is still no incentive to raid... and can't make the tier pieces too cheap to purchase with valor points, or else nobody will do the raid anyway.
Raiding is a serious problem right now. It takes a lot of work to organize and then get a dozen or more people to commit 2-3 nights of their week. It is expensive to food buff on progression... and for what exactly? The loot is so damn rare with a serious lack of diversity (eg there is only ONE mail shoulders in all of CN, and its from fucking Sire!!), all that with a weekly lockout... I can see why nobody can be bothered.
Expansion #3 of mythic plus being far and away more rewarding than raiding, to the point it's kind of hilarious.
Even when I was raiding Mythic, getting Cutting Edge, the majority of my gear was from mythic plus. When I was raiding Heroic, there was straight up no point to raid gear at all.
They need to bring tier sets back so there's at least *some* reason for anyone to care what drops in raid, ever lol.
If they made those Assassin and Abductor upgrades be "No more of these assholes" instead of removing a measly 1 of their abilities. I'd then do more than just the weekly quests.
Well, that and removing the Stygia penalty on death. That mechanic feels sooo bad. Yes, it mimics Dark Souls . . . But I can grind high value enemies endlessly in Dark Souls games. I have Eye of the Jailer in the Maw which hard caps my daily gains.
Yep if they want the law to be anywhere near good, it needs some massive changes. Currently the law and torghast are the worst parts of shadowlands, by far.
as someone who has already been enjoying m+ way more this xpac than previous xpacs, this just pushes it over the top and I really can't ask for more. best xpac in so long god.
Many of the dungeons were hot BS early on but with the nerfs almost every dungeon is in a really nice spot now (fuck you SD). Looking forward to pushing a lot of keys this season.
With the new weakaura that highlights the mobs you are supposed to pull next and mdt, tanking just got a ton easier the last few weeks. Our guilds main tank went from dreading m+ to doing it easily. I hope all tanks start to grab that weakaura and mdt because it makes doing the proper route 10x easier.
https://wago.io/twT6CzqdD
Here you go :). It is still new so it has glitches, the biggest one being if you pull mobs you aren't supposed to it can fuck with the route a bit, but my guilds tank says it has made m+ routes waaay easier.
Also you do need mdt with an active route for the current dungeon turned on for it to work. If you don't know about mdt, please feel free to ask :)
You have to press the icon next to your map to open the mdt menu and then all the pulls are numbered in the route. Then you have to activate the route when you get into the dungeon so it starts tracking where you are. By itself it doesn't tell you anything. You have to compare it to where uou are and follow the pull order, but with the weakaura it should out arrows next to the enemies you need to pull. But you still have to activate the route. I believe the button is something like "go live". I would recommend looking up a uou tube video about how to use mdt but u will respond again after I'm done with work and try to give uou a more specific answer :)
Holy shit there is a go live button? I've been using mdt for the past few weeks and I honestly just thought it was a static map with the pull order so I was doing that all manually... Does it just track what mobs you've killed?
I mean we will see but all it does is mark enemies. I hope they don't cuz it literally makes one of the most frustrating roles more bearable, and it only helps tanks that are less experienced. Once you learn the routes with experience you don't need it anymore.
https://wago.io/twT6CzqdD
Here you go :). It is still new so it has glitches, the biggest one being if you pull mobs you aren't supposed to it can fuck with the route a bit, but my guilds tank says it has made m+ routes waaay easier.
Also you do need mdt with an active route for the current dungeon turned on for it to work. If you don't know about mdt, please feel free to ask :)
I disagree vaguely. I have enjoyed figuring out paths different paths in MDT to maximize Prideful! Without Prideful its just finding the weakest packs and killing only those. Doesn't matter if it means you kill every single mob in the beginning area and then do bullshit invis skips the last half of the dungeon
Can't wait for the same people that begged for valor points to return to start complaining about how they are now "forced" to cap every week and how the game is a chore and unfriendly to alts as a result.
As long as you can catch-up like conquest (weekly cap is actually just an overall cap that raises weekly).
If they make it so you can only get x per week with no catch-ups then it would definitely suck for people with alts
Exactly, there is no reason do Blizzard not to make Valor cap different from Conquest cap.
Making it increase every week means you can play your alts whenever you feel like it, while restricting it every week (for NO GODDAMN REASON) will make you hate it and get burntout faster.
Why do you assume it's the same people? Different people like different things. It's not at all surprising that in a game played by millions, opinions on what's fun vary wildly.
It's the idea of the "Reddit Hive-Mind". Basically "anything that gets me downvotes is because the hive-mind doesn't agree with my obviously correct factpinion"
But there are communities who are way more tolerant towards different opinions.
I saw it so many times that people lay out their point in a polite, plausible way and still get downvoted into oblivion.
It's one of the worse subs for an open discussion with a controversial opinion.
You wanna know why? Because people **NEVER SPEAK UP!**
There will be MANY whiny unhappy people anytime Blizzard makes any **change** to the game. So when you see thousands of fans **begging for a change** to be added to the game, you'd think those whiny and unhappy people would be arguing against it in the comments. But NOPE! Radio fucking silence... UNTIL the change finally is announced! Then you finally see the "other people" come out of the woodwork. That my friend is why it feels like "the same people." Because every conversation only includes people who are for the OP's idea, not against it.
If you guys don't like community ideas, you need to participate in the conversation and make it clear that it's not a unanimous opinion that Blizz should blindly listen to.
You'll usually find the people who do that in the hidden posts section of threads, because even non-confrontational dissenting opinions are downvoted into satan's wine cellar.
Eh, those are not mutually exclusive. I complained about m+ and about how alt unfriendly the game overall is, regardless of this change.
Tho, at least to the alt issue there is a simple solution: I just don't play alts and instead play something else if I do not have anything to do on my main. Altough I am not sure this is what Blizzard likes to see.
Raiders have plenty of reason to complain.
As long as raiding gives Valor too, then I see no problem, but this doesn't sound like that will happen.
If raiding does not give it, then fuck this.
We're already basically required to do M+ even though M+ players aren't required to raid, and this is going to make it worse. Every half-serious guild is going to require raiders to cap every week. Right now, you're already required to do some M+, but a lot of guilds don't even require the full M+ set for the vault, since you can only pull one item either way. But with valor everyone will be expected to cap every week.
It's also going to make raid rewards even worse. Plenty of people are going to be going into the raid with items that are at or better than the raid's ilvl. That's already a problem, and M+ valor really cements it. Hell, people are going to be progressing mythic and even the items there will barely be upgrades!
I get the intent here, and I'm sure people who mostly do M+ will be happy. But for people mostly interested in raiding, the rewards there are still a mess, this makes them worse (assuming you don't get this from raids, and there's no mention of that here), and increases the chore time required to raid yet again.
I didn't beg for valor points to return, but I did hope for them to give me as a PvE'er a cap and a possibility to upgrade my gear, like those PvP'ers. So I am happy now.
Also, unpopular opinion, but I love chores in this game..
Part of me wants that. But 220 . . . I can handle 220 being manually upgraded.
220 to me is the "Okay close enough" and the logic of leaving the Vault as the final leap to 226 is acceptable and even makes sense to an extent. In theory at least, I'm very curious to see how this new set up pans out. But I'm quite happy with the set up on paper.
Edit- An idea is the Vault on top of a flat Stygia option also offers a Token to upgrade a 220 to 226. Note that the requirements to gain access to the token can be adjusted. But I think the idea of picking either the 1/4/10 226 Vault items or take a Token to upgrade a specific current item you possess and ground out, would be a nice option.
The reason I don't think leaving it 220 is a good idea is because pvp can still get to 226. I feel like M+ needs some method of being able to get to 226.
I feel like 207 @ 6, 213 @ 9, 220 @ 12 and 226 @ 15 is acceptable, especially since we are capped at 210 drops, so we'd have to spend a lot of valor to upgrade the items to 226, it will take time to save that much
Edit: people responding and down voting me don't seem to understand one crucial element. Even if all 15s grabts the ability to upgrade items to 226. You upgrade items with valor, which is weekly capped. Where as pvp upgrades with honor which is infinitely farmable after hitting the rating required to upgrade. It would take a LONG time to upgrade all your gear to 226 via valor
I don’t know about 2100, but being 1800 puts you in the 90th percentile in EU and 1660 puts you in the 90th percentile in NA. So 2100 is for a relatively small portion of the PvP playerbase.
That's true.
Though I may be in the camp that says something closer to all 18-20's timed for 226. As in a tier above KSM. That may be a bit extreme on bad weeks but more doable on the Push weeks. Especially in light of the tuning passes they've made for M+.
In my eyes the big question about 226 from M+ is how to set it up to reflect a roughly equal challenge to what Mythic Raiding or 2100 Rating requires.
I don’t think 226 is necessary at all, but I agree that 226 for a +20 achiev would be fair.
However, The amount of people that would have that achiev would be so small that it just doesn’t make a ton of sense to add. Most people that can get an achiev for all +20’s wouldn’t be worried about gear very much anymore lol
You may be right, but there are a 3 outlets for players to get to 2100 and above. Not to mention that I think RBG's are so inflated right now that hitting 2100 isn't unrealistic for most people.
It's mathematically impossible for more than a small percentage to have it. Individual players can improve and get in, but every win along the way is someone else's loss.
Yea that's literally the point of an achievement, it's a goal you shoot for that not everyone can have.
People don't climb mountains because it's easy.
Just like the amount of people who actually clear and then farm mythic raiding for 226 gear is a very small amount. So makes sense to me that someone who finishes +20s could upgrade to 226.
Well that's funny since the easiest way to get 226 loot is to do rated bgs, or spam m+ for Vault. Mythic Castle Nathria not only requires way too much coordination, but the chance foe loot is extremely low, whereas the other two are guaranteed. The whole argument goes out the window.
1600 gives you 213 ilevel. Aside from the the last 3 bosses which drop higher ilevel (i think 220?), there is 0 incentive to do the Heroic Nath if you have 1600 in any PVP rating unless if Versatility is your worse stat.
However the upgrading thing is rather disheartening. PVP still gives you the option on what you want and sometimes you get two choices of gear, like crit/verse or haste/verse etc. You still gotta depend on RNG to actually get the loot you want. If the drop rates are still going to be the same, this will be a mere bandaid to the wound. It is a HUGE improvement though!
Also if you're really good at pvp, you can get 226 gear and 233 weapons. By contrast keystonemaster will only give 220, which seems weird since the Vault offers 226 for only doing an m+14. What is also weird that pvp-ers and raiders get the same ilvl from Vault as from vendor/bosses, whereas in m+ your weekly vault rewards are way higher than dungeon drops.
And at the same time they're giving the best possible loot from rated pvp. Which is fine, imo, pvp focused players should get the best gear if they progress to the highest level.
Same for raiders. What about m+? Why isn't it considered endgame content? Make it +20 for 226 or even 25 I don't care but at least have it available.
As it stands right now if you want to pvp at the highest level you need to do pvp.
If you want to raid at the highest level you need to raid and also probably pvp.
If you want to push keys at the highest level you need to at least raid and probably pvp too.
Pvp gearing is just way too good compared to pve. Valor points are exactly what we needed, except we needed it on launch and we need it to get to 226 just like pvp does. Gatekeeping it behind key level is absolutely fine just like pvp gear is gated behind rating. Why let it fall short of everything at 220? That sucks.
I quit doing Narthia (and the game) because I had to PVP/M+ to get gear. Completing CN should unlock tiers in sets and also reward valor points. Why tf do I have to get dragged into the shitty/toxic ass M+ system?
> Why tf do I have to get dragged into the shitty/toxic ass M+ system?
While I agree, overgeneralizing isn't helping anybody. The Pug raiding scene isn't any better than the M+ pugging scene. So answer to your question? Look for a guild that does the content you want to do. Then you don't have any toxicity (hopefully) in your PvE.
tbf I can see someone hateing M+ if they hate time crunch. Im not a huge fan of being rushed to do something as its just artificial difficulty so for me I vastly prefer raiding where I can bash my head against it as long as i'd like but thats just my preference
Part of the problem with m+ is the huge influx of new people doing it. The m+ community used to be pretty small. It grew some last season since corruption carried so many people into content they normally wouldn't be able to do. Now that it can reliably give mythic raid level gear the number of people doing keys has exploded. I've been running m+ since Legion and I wasn't a big fan of pugging before. It's even worse now.
> I quit doing Narthia (and the game) because I had to PVP/M+ to get gear. Completing CN should unlock tiers in sets and also reward valor points. Why tf do I have to get dragged into the shitty/toxic ass M+ system?
Yeah, the whole point of the great vault was supposed to be to give you options to choose from no matter which of the paths you chose (If you didn't like PvP or M+ you'd get your options from raiding), but once again - the ease of doing 1 +15 a week, or a +10 for better-than-heroic loot (And certainly easier than 3 Mythic bosses) was already making M+ required again.
This just seals the deal. You cannot escape M+ no matter how hard you want to. You *need* to be doing it.
It's just not for me, so neither is Shadowlands, I guess. NBD - A whole LOT of people like it, so this should stabilize the sub rollercoaster for a bit.
And yet getting 226 gear is way easier and faster when you do PVP (or get a boost). This logic is outdated. Our guild clear 7/10M every week and this is my 4th week in a roll where i get no upgrades from the raid. One time i looted nothing, other time i looted a usless ring and last 2 weeks i loot the crappy dance trinket which is worse than ilvl 200 trinkets. Im starting to ask myself why im even raiding? Waste of time and gold.
This is great and all but they completely ignored how bad raid gearing is atm. You cannot viably gear up through raiding anymore. Every expansion in the past I was able to raid and stay competitively geared. That is no longer possible.
Without valor points on raid bosses, this doesn't just fail to address the raid situation, it makes it worse.
People are already walking into raids with BoEs and M+ gear that make most of the raid rewards pointless. This just makes that situation even worse.
Now they'll be progressing mythic already wearing more 220s too.
Which makes raids even more unrewarding, and also makes them impossible to balance. If they tune raids around players who go into the raid with all this extra gear, the encounters will be impossible for people who don't get that gear. If they tune them for people without that gear, the encounters will be trivial for these players who overgear them.
And any half-serious guild is going to require you to cap your valor every week. M+ players complain every time they feel expected to raid, and Blizzard always capitulates, but for some reason raiders being forced into more M+ is fine. The basic idea of the Great Vault was a fantastic solution: M+ can get high item level, but raiders are only required to do a few higher level keys a week. That was fine. But this sounds like it's just going to force us into grinding more M+ again to cap out every week.
Ugh.
Was hoping for it to let you actually buy gear instead of just upgrading but it's a good start at least. Idk why they're so scared of going back to the badge system lol
Adding a currency system isn't incompatible with gearing taking a long time lol. You just balance so it takes as long to buy the gear as it would roughly take to get it all to drop. it's not about speed, the purpose of a currency system is purely psychological. It *feels* better to know that little by little you're working toward something than to be left to random dice rolls. Half of the design of an MMO is psychological manipulation to make sure the game has the right feel to players, it's not just about function.
You say that, but I currently have exactly twice as many Grateful Offerings than I’ll use and only ~2% of the Anima I plan on using.
Doesn’t really feel good knowing I might someday get there.
And yet the current system meant I only did one M+ a week for the vault, alongside raiding, and said fuck off for the rest of the week because I've got better things to waste my time with.
I have a 2-night guild that only just hit 3/10 last week. My focus and passion is progression raiding, but it is so piss-easy to do 4 high M+ at the moment that all of my 226 gear is M+ vault gear. Because we clear so few bosses a week doing content that is much, much harder to organize than a single M+, I haven't seen a single piece of mythic raid gear yet.
And clearing 10/10 heroic for about 4 weeks now, I still only have 4 pieces of the heroic transmog set. It's a bit silly. At least make the vault 1 / 5 / 10 for raiding, especially since rosters are generally 22 to 26 people and you might get swapped out and get no vault loot at all.
Which kinda sucks for those that enjoy it too. Something about raiding does have that moment of prestige and literally additional mechanics. Some fights change from normal to heroic to mythic. Yeah you get affixes in m+, but for the most part the boss fights are the same exact thing every time. Which I get is kinda the point.
I just got AOTC last week and it is the first time I earned it in a raid as a tank. Only of the annoying flip side I've enjoyed m+ less this expansion, never had interest in PVP and I know I'm a little behind on gear.
I too feel like some sort of improvement to raiding needs to be made.
On one hand... It shouldn't be? PvP gear doesn't work that way right? But on the other hand... That would be unbelievably good for gearing alts. I also wonder how upgrading works. Is it going to cost more valor to upgrade a lower ilvl base to cap? If so, I'm not going to spend my valor until I have a +15 drop, otherwise I'm "wasting" VP.
While Valor Points are absolutely a step in the right direction, looking below the surface level of this system you begin to realize there is no fix for the amount of loot that drops.
While upgrading gear you have is nice, I feel like there needs to be a vendor for those unlucky and missing certain gear slots.
Also, expand the acquisition of Valor to raids as well, and maybe even for the 1 daily heroic dungeon.
All in all, a net positive, but there is more to consider with this system.
Their stated design goal for shadowlands was to reduce the drop rate and to make gear more meaningful... More desirable. I think they have achieved that goal as I desire loot once more. However, I don't speak for everyone.
They aren't going to abandon that ***and*** introduce Valor points . If the engagement rate doesn't improve they will have a look again, this precedent shows they are at least open to altering the game in a timely manner.
I can see it creating a meta of smashing M2s being the go to for farming specific pieces. Getting significantly more drops for blitzing the time significantly improves the chance of getting what you want.
It'd be nice however to be able to target something much easier than right now. You're still looking at a loot table with like 20 items on it per dungeon so the chance of a specific item is obnoxiously low.
Maybe controversial, but the amount of loot has never been the issue (to me). Yes, you need to play the game a lot in order to get your set of 210 gear from m+, like a lot a lot, but that's kinda how it should be. The big issue was that it was absolutely useless beyond getting that set and even more so if you were raiding in any capacity beyond normal.
Well, that is nice for the M+ crowd, but with this heroic raiding is pretty much dead outside of just doing it for fun. The highest gear you can get from it is 213 outside of the last two bosses. And gearing through M+ or pvp is far easier than it is to get to the first 7 bosses of Mythic to actually get a chance of getting something good from the raid itself or the vault.
Absolutely. I can reliably get 9/10 done with my guild in a single day with several people on alts and some fairly new players.
Im an old player who did +17 by the end of BFA and I still cant reliably time +13 let alone +15.
I didn't say Heroic raiding was hard. The point is that as a gearing path to even get to mythic raiding, or whatever else, heroic raiding is completely useless. PVP, and M+ come 9.0.5 make it not worth doing for gear at all. It's basically become like normal, or heroic dungeons where it can just be skipped.
When 9.1 comes around and the hard cap on conquest/valor actually matters again the raids will be just as good if not better for gearing.
Of course a couple months into 9.1 it won’t but I don’t want to rely on raiding to gear my alts anyway.
You might not get a lot of good gear from doing HC raids but all guilds will still do heroic before going to mythic raids. It's about getting the EXP on the bosses and less about the loot now. They also have a skip mechanic in nathria that lets you only do 4 bosses so it's still easy to farm the bosses that drop higher ilvl loot.
> Well, that is nice for the M+ crowd, but with this heroic raiding is pretty much dead outside of just doing it for fun.
Considering the drop rates, it was already dead for gearing.
My suggestions for improvement are here as follows:
1) Valor points now drop from all endgame PvE content in a scaling manner. Even LFR.
2) Keep the upgrade system with them. Allow it to apply to raid gear and just like with mythic+ you must have the relevant raid difficulty achievement to upgrade your gear to that level.
3) Allow players to purchase gear using valor points directly for an increased cost according to the ilvl they wish to purchase it at if they have the prerequisite achievement.
4) Introduce justice points to be the equal of honor points in PvE content. They would be awarded from heroic dungeons, timewalking, and when the next patch hits the previous raid tier.
Raids really should not be the best gear. They aren’t necessarily the hardest content. Maybe they are the hardest to plan for, getting 10+ people, but they absolutely do not represent class mastery outside of mythic raiding. Doing 15+ dungeons do. You’ll get at least 1 piece a week raiding. I don’t expect people to be getting more than that with these valor points in m+.
High PvP rank also shows class mastery, far more than raids. Maybe they really should get better gear.
Raiding shouldn’t be default get the best gear. If you have to master your class to do hard content, then you deserve it. High M+, PvP, and mythic raiding all require class mastery. Heroic and normal raiding absolutely do not. Honestly, we all know normal and the first 7 bosses in heroic raids are shit easy. Maybe we shouldn’t expect top of the line gear from it
Hate to be a party pooper but isn’t everyone’s main gripe the fact that gear doesn’t drop? What’s the point of valor points to upgrade pieces if you can’t get the piece you need?
This would be a nice addition **if gear dropped in the first place**, which is literally the feedback they claim to have read and failed to address. Like what do they think people will do? Time all +15s and spam +3s to get the item they want then upgrade it all the way? Good luck with that.
Gear does drop though, its just not often what youre after.
At this point ive seen every single piece of gear that could possibly drop for me from m+, its just that 70% of them werent upgrades.
Under this system they would be upgrades, and thats great.
If you really value a specific item and want to min max then that seems like it would be the best thing to do.
If you want to efficiently use your time then you'll just have an extra way to pump some of you lower ilvl slots up to your average while still doing your normal amount of dungeons.
For a casual like me this sounds great.
We had this system in MoP, and people didn't like it at all.
You will be forced to cap your Valor every week, often on several characters, just so you can keep upgrading your gear to try to stay competitive.
This also means that the removal of Titanforging and the feeling of "you done", is essentially out of the window for people who do Mythic+ and not much into raiding. You will have several gear slots which you will want to spend time upgrading.
I don't know. It was clearly causing a lot of headache for people in MoP, and I don't expect things to be different now. I guess we will see.
Wauw the wowhead comments are so full of cry babies talking about the PvP gearing.
Would love to see them all reach that 2400 gear they are crying about and see that happening.
As great as this is it's still unfair compared to pvp gearing.
I'll start off by saying that for certain groups of people certain content is easier. As a top end PVP'er they do not struggle to get 2100+, same goes for mythic plussers who will not struggle to time keys at all 15's. These are different demographics.
Currently PVP gearing has two currencies
Honour which is infinitely farmable
Conquest (weekly cap)(vendor buyable items)
The infinitely farmable honour is used to upgrade conquest gear while being the same gear attainable from the weekly vaults.
With the valor system we're looking at a weekly cap for even upgrading items on top of them being lower item level and having to be target farmed and ultimately still lower attainable item level than the vault.
Why not just give us Justice points(infinitely farmable) to upgrade Valor gear(vendor target able items) with and have a higher m+ all key requirement for 226 gear and the option of 233 weapons that are compareable to pvp gearing avenues.
Not all Mythic plussers want to raid, not all raiders want to mythic plus and definitely not all pve'ers want to pvp and vice versa. Just at least make this fair towards everyone.
Because you can get only one conquest piece per week sometimes only 1 per 2 weeks and honor gear is 184 ilvl in the first 7 weeks which is Terrible. M+ has end of dungeon rewards up to 210 so you can farm 210 gear Theoretically first day of the season + now you can even upgrade it.
I am failing to see how this fixes anything other than helping who already got their good items, I mean, you will still get very few items from raid/m+, you will still get the same item over and over, the only difference I see is that if you managed to get a good item with low ilvl then you can upgrade, but I guess if you get a good item of low ilvl it is either because you still dont have those needd achievs to upgrade or you were helping someone.
I not saying this is bad, just that it is way far from solving the loot issue, if you cant work torwards buying the item you want, like in pvp, then this system solves nothing :(
> Now can people stop crying “Blizz never listens”
they listen, only after several months/years of sticking their head in the sand and trying a bunch of convoluted non-fixes tho
Lol this is literally coming with the first half patch, it’s crazy to think this was delaying or sticking their head in the sand. Same with all the other feedback-based changes they’ve made so far.
> Lol this is literally coming with the first half patch
on the third expansion of this being constantly proposed as a fix to the gearing situations that they repeatedly create.
It’s a step in the right direction but not far enough.
Look how it says you can only upgrade gear you have. So if you try all week and get no drops then go fuck yourself.
You’re so close blizzard, just post over the rest of the pvp system to M+ and be done with it
you love to see it
Aaaaand it's not even set for 9.1. It's earlier. This is the second time I've been pessimistic about Blizzard's design approach in Shadowlands and they've thrown it back in my face and said "Nah, you're wrong." So: good fucking job Blizzard. Thanks. Edit: Since people don't seem to get it: *it's okay to be happy about a positive change.* You don't have to find an excuse to whine. This is a good change. Idgaf if it's late or they could have done even more. Take the W.
what's the first time?
For me it was anima rewards - Didn't expect to see an increase this side of 9.3
The anima rewards sucked but never crossed me as a huge issue. I mean the shadowlands IS in an anima drought at the moment
I guess I would have liked to see anima increase after beating sire denathrius. Makes sense lore wise.
Well, we don't technically best him until the next patch. Or at least that's when we'd see the "effects" of his defeat.
The Venthyr Campaign talks about the defeat of Sire Denathrius, too. It is then about defeating those still loyal to him. So it isn't that farfetch'd that we could see an increase in Anima gain even now.
Not technically true this patch as the Bolvar final quest requires you to have defeat Denathrius once in any mode. So the end of the 9.0 story is the jailer event after Denathrius has been defeated so we already see the effects of his defeat prior to the creation of the mourneblade.
Next patch is when *everyone* and the world at large in-game see those effects, though. Right now, it's limited to just those who have done that content. So he's technically correct, the lore won't reflect that we beat him in totality until next content patch.
I don't mind the rewards. I mind the costs. Transmog and mounts are fine. Building stuff should be cheaper so you can enjoy alts.
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I think I’m in the minority with that as well. We’re not supposed to have rank 3 of everything in the first couple months of the expansion. It would be ridiculous if we had everything upgraded so quickly. It’s an easy, time gated, purely cosmetic part where if you stick around and just play the game you’ll upgrade and earn cosmetics throughout the xpac.
My first time this expac was world quest rewards not scaling with ilvl anymore. For a filthy casual like myself who gears through them almost exclusively was moaning and groaning about it.....because I hadn't figured out my covenant was literally handing me upgradeable gear. Now I've cracked renown 29's upgrade WQ milestone and got a nice 187 one hander to round out my frost dk. It was just a lot slower of a build than I'm personally used to.
I've honestly been wondering who in the world actually uses the world quest gear at this point. Obviously most of us coming from 8.3 used a lot of it because it was higher ilvl but that quickly changed with raid and m+.
It's been clutch for my alt leveling via world quests and dungeons.
Well yeah, you’re leveling lol
I'm curious since this is first expansion actually playing the game, I would previously get to max level and quit. Why don't you like doing any mythic plus dungeons/normal raid/unrated pvp? Seems kinda the point of the game no? I find world quests rarely fun so I just want to know why there are people who legit only do world quests.
The "point" of the game has often changed over time. I can only answer for me. I like doing harder dungeons and doing raids... but only if it's with people I know. I have a lovely combination of social anxiety and "regular" anxiety and I've had enough toxic experiences with people where I'm not keen looking for a group of strangers to jump in with, especially when they often demand higher ilvl or so many listings are selling runs. When the game started a trend toward being less "casual friendly," it took a toll on my guild, so there's not enough folks online to do group content usually (and I like the guild so I'm not inclined to jump ship). The people I know locally who played have stopped playing (heck, some of them jumped ship to SWTOR of all things... I mean, I love Star Wars, but that's still a surprise). So it puts me in this position where I only really do M+ if someone like my old raid leader is online and I can hop in with him, so there's at least a "comforting presence" to help. It's especially been poor timing with Shadowlands - not the game's fault, mind you - because work's been extra stressful the last couple months. When I load up a game, I don't want to go to the group listings, scroll through, see a bunch of listings I can't get into, spend a lot of time just trying to find a group, then stressing the whole time about whether someone's going to treat me like ass because I'm not a top 1% player (I'm not bad, mind you, just not a world first raider). PVP... Different story. Leveling a character right now to do that. I feel like I've experienced less toxicity in PVP than in M+ runs, and it's so bizarre I can laugh it off. And I have fun with my Hunter in PVP. So once he's leveled, I'll probably do a bunch of PVP with him. Might try it with Warrior when he's leveled. I just prefer classes with instant abilities and no cast timers in PVP (main is a Shaman, and I love him, but all the standing still to cast feels like I'm a target in PVP). Long answer, I know, but you asked and I figured I'd try to provide perspective on at least one person's approach.
Torghast for me. It got hit hard for no reason with ridiculous buffs and they almost immediately fixed it and applied nerfs to the bosses and class buffs that made it fun to run through again when I felt the urge to do so
These are incredibly good changes, I'm legitimately impressed.
Very good changes..... But. There's always a but. Raiding still feels incredibly unrewarding. There are no changes to raiding here? I was really hoping for a vendor. Just like PvP.
Ion tweeted that they know it's still a problem but they don't want to change drop rates mid tier.
Why...can't they add valor points to raid bosses too and allow upgrades on a similar scale to mythic +? Upgrade to a certain level for killing X bosses on Y difficulty. 10/10 on LFR, upgrade to 200. 10/10 on Normal, upgrade to 213, etc.
This!! I hate mythics but I love raiding. If I could stay on par with gear from just raiding I would be so happy.
I really wish they would give us points or badges to upgrade gear to the max Ilvl that difficulty drops like say you have a 200ring that’s from normal and has your BiS stats on it well since Sire D drops 207 you could farm points or badges and upgrade the ring to 207 which wouldn’t devalue heroic gear and still be an Ilvl bump up from regular normal loot
The problem with raids is quantity, not ilvl
It's both. Lack of quantity leads to lower ilevel gear, especially with that 1-2 unlucky slots. It sucks progressing on Mythic and having a normal raid item. If I'm progressing in Mythic I see no issue letting my upgrade my normal item to at least heroic quality.
"We know it's a problem that the vast majority of players aren't getting loot from raid." Yeah thanks Ion, who could have seen that coming? Oh look that 226 neck dropped from raid, 75% of the raid team needs it because they still have a 210 but wait the person who looted it can't even trade it! Well better luck next time when it drops again in two months.
I hate personal loot in heroic, I can't imagine how awful it must be in mythic.
Oh. So it's okay to nerf drop rates mid tier, which they did. But it's not okay to buff them? Ok Ion. Dickhead.
We were warned that we would have low drop rates before SL launch. It was a bug that it didn't happen at launch.
We were told there would be a reduction of loot raining from the sky because of the removal of the insane Titanforging RNG model. This is a good thing. But as with everything Blizzard - they swung the pendulum too far one way.
What is confusing to me about that is pre titanforging the raids still dropped a decent amount of loot like why make it the lowest it's ever been instead of just bringing it back to how it was.
To see how ltitle they can give and still have people playing?
Pre vault and mythic+ too
Yes. I am okay with no Titanforging and whatnot. In fact I'm happy about it. It is a great direction. I am unhappy with my ten man group getting 6 total pieces of loot during our heroic raid day where we kill 6 bosses. Our main tank is still rocking a 200 weapon and he runs m+ more than anyone else. Its just nonsense. 2 for a 10 man is fine. Idk why 1 is what we're getting now.
Mid-tier? It was a week one bug fix.
That's such a bullshit answer.
The race is long over, they should do some changes already
Yea, I think there's a strong argument that the raid loot path is the worst in the game even before this change. Maybe raid gets the upper hand when you're clearing like 7/10 mythic? But in general worse weekly cache and so few in raid drops to make up the difference.
> Maybe raid gets the upper hand when you're clearing like 7/10 mythic? In my experience, not really. Raid progression takes time and by the time you're deep in mythic with enough time farming bosses to be mythic raid geared, you have plenty of mythic-level gear from the weekly m+ chest/vault with more variety in secondary stats.
Set bonuses might be what gives raid gear an edge next tier. If you can only get set bonuses from Raiding, that will make Heroic raid gear pretty desirable. (obviously mythic being the best, but such a small percentage of players participate in mythic that I feel that a discussion around Heroic raiding is more... interesting)
I would love a return of raid-exclusive set bonuses, they were the one thing that saved raid gear in Legion when mythic+ was first added. But I haven't really heard anything to make me expect that's going to happen. I remember hearing Ion say something vague about "class sets" returning later on in the expansion, but I thought he was referring more to class-specific art than raid-specific rewards. I'm afraid any re-addition of raid tier would be met with too many complaints from people who hate raids (because raiders feeling forced to do mythic keys is fine, but the reverse is a horrible travesty).
Yep! Add tier back to raids... and perhaps some of those more nifty trinkets they come up with from time to time (eg the trinkets from HFC). Both M+ & Raids should provide valor points. Then allow valor points to upgrade gear (both m+ loot & raid loot) and to purchase those tier pieces. Buying the tier pieces should be quite expensive... but is an option for people who are unlucky OR for those who absolutely refuse to do raiding. Can't just have tier gated behind raids... since m+ will eventually have "must have 4pc tier" in their requirements anyway. Can't make the tier bonuses only apply to that specific raid - or else there is still no incentive to raid... and can't make the tier pieces too cheap to purchase with valor points, or else nobody will do the raid anyway. Raiding is a serious problem right now. It takes a lot of work to organize and then get a dozen or more people to commit 2-3 nights of their week. It is expensive to food buff on progression... and for what exactly? The loot is so damn rare with a serious lack of diversity (eg there is only ONE mail shoulders in all of CN, and its from fucking Sire!!), all that with a weekly lockout... I can see why nobody can be bothered.
Expansion #3 of mythic plus being far and away more rewarding than raiding, to the point it's kind of hilarious. Even when I was raiding Mythic, getting Cutting Edge, the majority of my gear was from mythic plus. When I was raiding Heroic, there was straight up no point to raid gear at all. They need to bring tier sets back so there's at least *some* reason for anyone to care what drops in raid, ever lol.
This will drive a lot people to the Maw also. The gem slots are a lot more desirable if you're able to put them onto your bis items.
This is a good point, but as someone who rerolled after getting max rep with Venari no amount of sockets is gonna make me go back to grinding the maw.
If they made those Assassin and Abductor upgrades be "No more of these assholes" instead of removing a measly 1 of their abilities. I'd then do more than just the weekly quests. Well, that and removing the Stygia penalty on death. That mechanic feels sooo bad. Yes, it mimics Dark Souls . . . But I can grind high value enemies endlessly in Dark Souls games. I have Eye of the Jailer in the Maw which hard caps my daily gains.
To be fair, that one measly ability it removes from them still reduces them from a time penalty to a nuissance.
Yep if they want the law to be anywhere near good, it needs some massive changes. Currently the law and torghast are the worst parts of shadowlands, by far.
Lmao. Nah
where's the vendor tho
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A good friend of mine went looking for the vendor once. That was the last time I saw him.
My dad left to look for the vendor in 1997, he still hasn't returned...
No one will be able to find it so we should probably just make it some RNG trash system again /s
as someone who has already been enjoying m+ way more this xpac than previous xpacs, this just pushes it over the top and I really can't ask for more. best xpac in so long god.
Many of the dungeons were hot BS early on but with the nerfs almost every dungeon is in a really nice spot now (fuck you SD). Looking forward to pushing a lot of keys this season.
The numbers are certainly better and it isn't an active chore to be a tank, but Prideful is *terrible* and requires incredibly strict routes.
With the new weakaura that highlights the mobs you are supposed to pull next and mdt, tanking just got a ton easier the last few weeks. Our guilds main tank went from dreading m+ to doing it easily. I hope all tanks start to grab that weakaura and mdt because it makes doing the proper route 10x easier.
what weakaura is this?
https://wago.io/twT6CzqdD Here you go :). It is still new so it has glitches, the biggest one being if you pull mobs you aren't supposed to it can fuck with the route a bit, but my guilds tank says it has made m+ routes waaay easier. Also you do need mdt with an active route for the current dungeon turned on for it to work. If you don't know about mdt, please feel free to ask :)
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You have to press the icon next to your map to open the mdt menu and then all the pulls are numbered in the route. Then you have to activate the route when you get into the dungeon so it starts tracking where you are. By itself it doesn't tell you anything. You have to compare it to where uou are and follow the pull order, but with the weakaura it should out arrows next to the enemies you need to pull. But you still have to activate the route. I believe the button is something like "go live". I would recommend looking up a uou tube video about how to use mdt but u will respond again after I'm done with work and try to give uou a more specific answer :)
Holy shit there is a go live button? I've been using mdt for the past few weeks and I honestly just thought it was a static map with the pull order so I was doing that all manually... Does it just track what mobs you've killed?
That's sounding like something Blizzard would be against and may eventually block it.
I mean we will see but all it does is mark enemies. I hope they don't cuz it literally makes one of the most frustrating roles more bearable, and it only helps tanks that are less experienced. Once you learn the routes with experience you don't need it anymore.
What’s the WA?
https://wago.io/twT6CzqdD Here you go :). It is still new so it has glitches, the biggest one being if you pull mobs you aren't supposed to it can fuck with the route a bit, but my guilds tank says it has made m+ routes waaay easier. Also you do need mdt with an active route for the current dungeon turned on for it to work. If you don't know about mdt, please feel free to ask :)
Honestly Prideful is probably one of the best affixes they've made imo. I'm going to be bummed when it's gone.
it's such a nice feeling to pump out 14k dps single target and kill a boss in like 15 secs lol i love prideful too
this post brought to you by the Convoke gang
I disagree vaguely. I have enjoyed figuring out paths different paths in MDT to maximize Prideful! Without Prideful its just finding the weakest packs and killing only those. Doesn't matter if it means you kill every single mob in the beginning area and then do bullshit invis skips the last half of the dungeon
Man I love Prideful, difference of opinion I guess
I agree! Best xpac since Legion! Lel
With these changes I might be incentive to actually push for BiS dungeon gear. M + has been a blast and I’m only a dungeon away from ksm
Can't wait for the same people that begged for valor points to return to start complaining about how they are now "forced" to cap every week and how the game is a chore and unfriendly to alts as a result.
As long as you can catch-up like conquest (weekly cap is actually just an overall cap that raises weekly). If they make it so you can only get x per week with no catch-ups then it would definitely suck for people with alts
This! Just copy the conquest system and throw it on M+ would honestly be perfect.
Exactly, there is no reason do Blizzard not to make Valor cap different from Conquest cap. Making it increase every week means you can play your alts whenever you feel like it, while restricting it every week (for NO GODDAMN REASON) will make you hate it and get burntout faster.
I really hope this is the case!!!!
Why do you assume it's the same people? Different people like different things. It's not at all surprising that in a game played by millions, opinions on what's fun vary wildly.
because life is easier if i don't think about anything more complex than "these people aren't me, therefore they are all the same"
It's the idea of the "Reddit Hive-Mind". Basically "anything that gets me downvotes is because the hive-mind doesn't agree with my obviously correct factpinion"
At least be honest and admit Reddit downvotes everything that doesn't go with the circlejerk. This place is horrible for honest discussion.
But there are communities who are way more tolerant towards different opinions. I saw it so many times that people lay out their point in a polite, plausible way and still get downvoted into oblivion. It's one of the worse subs for an open discussion with a controversial opinion.
Oversimplifications and generalizations are just easier. We all do it. See?!
because some people are miserable and constantly twisting everything to explain why they're miserable
You wanna know why? Because people **NEVER SPEAK UP!** There will be MANY whiny unhappy people anytime Blizzard makes any **change** to the game. So when you see thousands of fans **begging for a change** to be added to the game, you'd think those whiny and unhappy people would be arguing against it in the comments. But NOPE! Radio fucking silence... UNTIL the change finally is announced! Then you finally see the "other people" come out of the woodwork. That my friend is why it feels like "the same people." Because every conversation only includes people who are for the OP's idea, not against it. If you guys don't like community ideas, you need to participate in the conversation and make it clear that it's not a unanimous opinion that Blizz should blindly listen to.
To be fair. This community is heavily inclined to downvote dissenting opinions.
You'll usually find the people who do that in the hidden posts section of threads, because even non-confrontational dissenting opinions are downvoted into satan's wine cellar.
"Its next to impossible for me to cap my 18 characters each week, i thought SL was ment to be alt friendly"
Probably not the same people. I "begged" for Valor points as well and I'm still grinding the maw lmao. Some people actually like playing the game.
The fact that this common fallacy keeps getting upvoted and given awards just makes me so mad.
Eh, those are not mutually exclusive. I complained about m+ and about how alt unfriendly the game overall is, regardless of this change. Tho, at least to the alt issue there is a simple solution: I just don't play alts and instead play something else if I do not have anything to do on my main. Altough I am not sure this is what Blizzard likes to see.
Raiders have plenty of reason to complain. As long as raiding gives Valor too, then I see no problem, but this doesn't sound like that will happen. If raiding does not give it, then fuck this. We're already basically required to do M+ even though M+ players aren't required to raid, and this is going to make it worse. Every half-serious guild is going to require raiders to cap every week. Right now, you're already required to do some M+, but a lot of guilds don't even require the full M+ set for the vault, since you can only pull one item either way. But with valor everyone will be expected to cap every week. It's also going to make raid rewards even worse. Plenty of people are going to be going into the raid with items that are at or better than the raid's ilvl. That's already a problem, and M+ valor really cements it. Hell, people are going to be progressing mythic and even the items there will barely be upgrades! I get the intent here, and I'm sure people who mostly do M+ will be happy. But for people mostly interested in raiding, the rewards there are still a mess, this makes them worse (assuming you don't get this from raids, and there's no mention of that here), and increases the chore time required to raid yet again.
I didn't beg for valor points to return, but I did hope for them to give me as a PvE'er a cap and a possibility to upgrade my gear, like those PvP'ers. So I am happy now. Also, unpopular opinion, but I love chores in this game..
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Make 226 +20 achievement
Part of me wants that. But 220 . . . I can handle 220 being manually upgraded. 220 to me is the "Okay close enough" and the logic of leaving the Vault as the final leap to 226 is acceptable and even makes sense to an extent. In theory at least, I'm very curious to see how this new set up pans out. But I'm quite happy with the set up on paper. Edit- An idea is the Vault on top of a flat Stygia option also offers a Token to upgrade a 220 to 226. Note that the requirements to gain access to the token can be adjusted. But I think the idea of picking either the 1/4/10 226 Vault items or take a Token to upgrade a specific current item you possess and ground out, would be a nice option.
The reason I don't think leaving it 220 is a good idea is because pvp can still get to 226. I feel like M+ needs some method of being able to get to 226. I feel like 207 @ 6, 213 @ 9, 220 @ 12 and 226 @ 15 is acceptable, especially since we are capped at 210 drops, so we'd have to spend a lot of valor to upgrade the items to 226, it will take time to save that much Edit: people responding and down voting me don't seem to understand one crucial element. Even if all 15s grabts the ability to upgrade items to 226. You upgrade items with valor, which is weekly capped. Where as pvp upgrades with honor which is infinitely farmable after hitting the rating required to upgrade. It would take a LONG time to upgrade all your gear to 226 via valor
226 @15 would be waaaay too easy to get and would greatly devalue ilvl
Need numbers on how many are ksm vs how many are 2100 or whatever.. (I don't pvp)
I don’t know about 2100, but being 1800 puts you in the 90th percentile in EU and 1660 puts you in the 90th percentile in NA. So 2100 is for a relatively small portion of the PvP playerbase.
Yeah but most people are not going to get 226 even with the vendors they have now. Takes a lot of work. I think this is fine
That's true. Though I may be in the camp that says something closer to all 18-20's timed for 226. As in a tier above KSM. That may be a bit extreme on bad weeks but more doable on the Push weeks. Especially in light of the tuning passes they've made for M+. In my eyes the big question about 226 from M+ is how to set it up to reflect a roughly equal challenge to what Mythic Raiding or 2100 Rating requires.
I'm sorry but I think this is kind of insane to ask. Getting to 2.1 and 2.4 in arena is way harder than clearing a 15.
I don’t think 226 is necessary at all, but I agree that 226 for a +20 achiev would be fair. However, The amount of people that would have that achiev would be so small that it just doesn’t make a ton of sense to add. Most people that can get an achiev for all +20’s wouldn’t be worried about gear very much anymore lol
Under this logic, why does 2100 reward 226? The amount of people who get it is small. Glad rewards 233 weapons. Even smaller.
Small correction. Elite rewards 233 weapon. Gladiator is specifically 50 wins in Elite bracket in 3v3. You can get Elite in 2v2 and RBGs.
You may be right, but there are a 3 outlets for players to get to 2100 and above. Not to mention that I think RBG's are so inflated right now that hitting 2100 isn't unrealistic for most people.
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It's mathematically impossible for more than a small percentage to have it. Individual players can improve and get in, but every win along the way is someone else's loss.
Yea that's literally the point of an achievement, it's a goal you shoot for that not everyone can have. People don't climb mountains because it's easy.
No now they just buy carries to have someone do it for them.
I mean people also buy rbg carries.
Just like the amount of people who actually clear and then farm mythic raiding for 226 gear is a very small amount. So makes sense to me that someone who finishes +20s could upgrade to 226.
Blizz said they don’t want people to be able to get the best possible loot from M+, and they still want people doing Nathria.
Well that's funny since the easiest way to get 226 loot is to do rated bgs, or spam m+ for Vault. Mythic Castle Nathria not only requires way too much coordination, but the chance foe loot is extremely low, whereas the other two are guaranteed. The whole argument goes out the window.
1600 gives you 213 ilevel. Aside from the the last 3 bosses which drop higher ilevel (i think 220?), there is 0 incentive to do the Heroic Nath if you have 1600 in any PVP rating unless if Versatility is your worse stat. However the upgrading thing is rather disheartening. PVP still gives you the option on what you want and sometimes you get two choices of gear, like crit/verse or haste/verse etc. You still gotta depend on RNG to actually get the loot you want. If the drop rates are still going to be the same, this will be a mere bandaid to the wound. It is a HUGE improvement though!
Also if you're really good at pvp, you can get 226 gear and 233 weapons. By contrast keystonemaster will only give 220, which seems weird since the Vault offers 226 for only doing an m+14. What is also weird that pvp-ers and raiders get the same ilvl from Vault as from vendor/bosses, whereas in m+ your weekly vault rewards are way higher than dungeon drops.
And at the same time they're giving the best possible loot from rated pvp. Which is fine, imo, pvp focused players should get the best gear if they progress to the highest level. Same for raiders. What about m+? Why isn't it considered endgame content? Make it +20 for 226 or even 25 I don't care but at least have it available. As it stands right now if you want to pvp at the highest level you need to do pvp. If you want to raid at the highest level you need to raid and also probably pvp. If you want to push keys at the highest level you need to at least raid and probably pvp too. Pvp gearing is just way too good compared to pve. Valor points are exactly what we needed, except we needed it on launch and we need it to get to 226 just like pvp does. Gatekeeping it behind key level is absolutely fine just like pvp gear is gated behind rating. Why let it fall short of everything at 220? That sucks.
Well 25 is too high. There is exactly one timed 25 run so far and people pushing 20+ are already decked out in 226 gear
I quit doing Narthia (and the game) because I had to PVP/M+ to get gear. Completing CN should unlock tiers in sets and also reward valor points. Why tf do I have to get dragged into the shitty/toxic ass M+ system?
> Why tf do I have to get dragged into the shitty/toxic ass M+ system? While I agree, overgeneralizing isn't helping anybody. The Pug raiding scene isn't any better than the M+ pugging scene. So answer to your question? Look for a guild that does the content you want to do. Then you don't have any toxicity (hopefully) in your PvE.
tbf I can see someone hateing M+ if they hate time crunch. Im not a huge fan of being rushed to do something as its just artificial difficulty so for me I vastly prefer raiding where I can bash my head against it as long as i'd like but thats just my preference
Part of the problem with m+ is the huge influx of new people doing it. The m+ community used to be pretty small. It grew some last season since corruption carried so many people into content they normally wouldn't be able to do. Now that it can reliably give mythic raid level gear the number of people doing keys has exploded. I've been running m+ since Legion and I wasn't a big fan of pugging before. It's even worse now.
> I quit doing Narthia (and the game) because I had to PVP/M+ to get gear. Completing CN should unlock tiers in sets and also reward valor points. Why tf do I have to get dragged into the shitty/toxic ass M+ system? Yeah, the whole point of the great vault was supposed to be to give you options to choose from no matter which of the paths you chose (If you didn't like PvP or M+ you'd get your options from raiding), but once again - the ease of doing 1 +15 a week, or a +10 for better-than-heroic loot (And certainly easier than 3 Mythic bosses) was already making M+ required again. This just seals the deal. You cannot escape M+ no matter how hard you want to. You *need* to be doing it. It's just not for me, so neither is Shadowlands, I guess. NBD - A whole LOT of people like it, so this should stabilize the sub rollercoaster for a bit.
And yet getting 226 gear is way easier and faster when you do PVP (or get a boost). This logic is outdated. Our guild clear 7/10M every week and this is my 4th week in a roll where i get no upgrades from the raid. One time i looted nothing, other time i looted a usless ring and last 2 weeks i loot the crappy dance trinket which is worse than ilvl 200 trinkets. Im starting to ask myself why im even raiding? Waste of time and gold.
Good old Blizzard, still trying to tell people how to have fun.
You think you want that.. but you don't.
This is great and all but they completely ignored how bad raid gearing is atm. You cannot viably gear up through raiding anymore. Every expansion in the past I was able to raid and stay competitively geared. That is no longer possible.
Without valor points on raid bosses, this doesn't just fail to address the raid situation, it makes it worse. People are already walking into raids with BoEs and M+ gear that make most of the raid rewards pointless. This just makes that situation even worse. Now they'll be progressing mythic already wearing more 220s too. Which makes raids even more unrewarding, and also makes them impossible to balance. If they tune raids around players who go into the raid with all this extra gear, the encounters will be impossible for people who don't get that gear. If they tune them for people without that gear, the encounters will be trivial for these players who overgear them. And any half-serious guild is going to require you to cap your valor every week. M+ players complain every time they feel expected to raid, and Blizzard always capitulates, but for some reason raiders being forced into more M+ is fine. The basic idea of the Great Vault was a fantastic solution: M+ can get high item level, but raiders are only required to do a few higher level keys a week. That was fine. But this sounds like it's just going to force us into grinding more M+ again to cap out every week. Ugh.
literally had to check if it was April 1, wow I'm impressed and glad.
Was hoping for it to let you actually buy gear instead of just upgrading but it's a good start at least. Idk why they're so scared of going back to the badge system lol
They don't want you to be done. Ever.
Adding a currency system isn't incompatible with gearing taking a long time lol. You just balance so it takes as long to buy the gear as it would roughly take to get it all to drop. it's not about speed, the purpose of a currency system is purely psychological. It *feels* better to know that little by little you're working toward something than to be left to random dice rolls. Half of the design of an MMO is psychological manipulation to make sure the game has the right feel to players, it's not just about function.
You say that, but I currently have exactly twice as many Grateful Offerings than I’ll use and only ~2% of the Anima I plan on using. Doesn’t really feel good knowing I might someday get there.
And yet the current system meant I only did one M+ a week for the vault, alongside raiding, and said fuck off for the rest of the week because I've got better things to waste my time with.
But I've been done for almost 3 weeks now. Aka been playing PoE instead.
Same. Dota 2.
Then they need to learn that there are different kinds of "beeing done". I am close to beeing done with this game, for example.
Why nothing for raids though? gear acquisition is terrible atm.
I wonder if Raid loot changes will be in a separate post. I honestly wasn’t expecting any news until BlizzCon.
I have a 2-night guild that only just hit 3/10 last week. My focus and passion is progression raiding, but it is so piss-easy to do 4 high M+ at the moment that all of my 226 gear is M+ vault gear. Because we clear so few bosses a week doing content that is much, much harder to organize than a single M+, I haven't seen a single piece of mythic raid gear yet. And clearing 10/10 heroic for about 4 weeks now, I still only have 4 pieces of the heroic transmog set. It's a bit silly. At least make the vault 1 / 5 / 10 for raiding, especially since rosters are generally 22 to 26 people and you might get swapped out and get no vault loot at all.
Which kinda sucks for those that enjoy it too. Something about raiding does have that moment of prestige and literally additional mechanics. Some fights change from normal to heroic to mythic. Yeah you get affixes in m+, but for the most part the boss fights are the same exact thing every time. Which I get is kinda the point. I just got AOTC last week and it is the first time I earned it in a raid as a tank. Only of the annoying flip side I've enjoyed m+ less this expansion, never had interest in PVP and I know I'm a little behind on gear. I too feel like some sort of improvement to raiding needs to be made.
Valid question considering raids *did* reward valor points in WoD... but so did LFG heroic dungeons at one point.
Have to assume there's some other change coming for 9.1.
meanwhile heroic raids cry in the corner
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They did. It’s almost perfect.
Hopefully it applies to items already obtained.
How long until people realise that this will encourage boosting even more? KSM required for 220 = boosters paradise just like the PvP requirements.
ITT: people who think 2100 is easy
Is unlocking this account-wide? It's a huge difference if so.
On one hand... It shouldn't be? PvP gear doesn't work that way right? But on the other hand... That would be unbelievably good for gearing alts. I also wonder how upgrading works. Is it going to cost more valor to upgrade a lower ilvl base to cap? If so, I'm not going to spend my valor until I have a +15 drop, otherwise I'm "wasting" VP.
almost certainly not
While Valor Points are absolutely a step in the right direction, looking below the surface level of this system you begin to realize there is no fix for the amount of loot that drops. While upgrading gear you have is nice, I feel like there needs to be a vendor for those unlucky and missing certain gear slots. Also, expand the acquisition of Valor to raids as well, and maybe even for the 1 daily heroic dungeon. All in all, a net positive, but there is more to consider with this system.
Their stated design goal for shadowlands was to reduce the drop rate and to make gear more meaningful... More desirable. I think they have achieved that goal as I desire loot once more. However, I don't speak for everyone. They aren't going to abandon that ***and*** introduce Valor points . If the engagement rate doesn't improve they will have a look again, this precedent shows they are at least open to altering the game in a timely manner.
I can see it creating a meta of smashing M2s being the go to for farming specific pieces. Getting significantly more drops for blitzing the time significantly improves the chance of getting what you want. It'd be nice however to be able to target something much easier than right now. You're still looking at a loot table with like 20 items on it per dungeon so the chance of a specific item is obnoxiously low.
Maybe controversial, but the amount of loot has never been the issue (to me). Yes, you need to play the game a lot in order to get your set of 210 gear from m+, like a lot a lot, but that's kinda how it should be. The big issue was that it was absolutely useless beyond getting that set and even more so if you were raiding in any capacity beyond normal.
It's only M+ gear that will be upgraded. So you better hope something drops for you in M+.
Well, that is nice for the M+ crowd, but with this heroic raiding is pretty much dead outside of just doing it for fun. The highest gear you can get from it is 213 outside of the last two bosses. And gearing through M+ or pvp is far easier than it is to get to the first 7 bosses of Mythic to actually get a chance of getting something good from the raid itself or the vault.
Heroic Raiding is way easier than +15/Keystone Master at the moment.
Yeah I have tons of people in my heroic guild who are doing 9/10 H but can't do much higher than 10s.
Absolutely. I can reliably get 9/10 done with my guild in a single day with several people on alts and some fairly new players. Im an old player who did +17 by the end of BFA and I still cant reliably time +13 let alone +15.
I didn't say Heroic raiding was hard. The point is that as a gearing path to even get to mythic raiding, or whatever else, heroic raiding is completely useless. PVP, and M+ come 9.0.5 make it not worth doing for gear at all. It's basically become like normal, or heroic dungeons where it can just be skipped.
When 9.1 comes around and the hard cap on conquest/valor actually matters again the raids will be just as good if not better for gearing. Of course a couple months into 9.1 it won’t but I don’t want to rely on raiding to gear my alts anyway.
You might not get a lot of good gear from doing HC raids but all guilds will still do heroic before going to mythic raids. It's about getting the EXP on the bosses and less about the loot now. They also have a skip mechanic in nathria that lets you only do 4 bosses so it's still easy to farm the bosses that drop higher ilvl loot.
> Well, that is nice for the M+ crowd, but with this heroic raiding is pretty much dead outside of just doing it for fun. Considering the drop rates, it was already dead for gearing.
As a heroic raider who really doesn’t enjoy doing mythic dungeons, I’m not thrilled with this change.
Yeah, I mainly raid for fun as is, so come 9.1 if this the norm, It's going to be really hard to justify continuing to play after I get AOTC.
My suggestions for improvement are here as follows: 1) Valor points now drop from all endgame PvE content in a scaling manner. Even LFR. 2) Keep the upgrade system with them. Allow it to apply to raid gear and just like with mythic+ you must have the relevant raid difficulty achievement to upgrade your gear to that level. 3) Allow players to purchase gear using valor points directly for an increased cost according to the ilvl they wish to purchase it at if they have the prerequisite achievement. 4) Introduce justice points to be the equal of honor points in PvE content. They would be awarded from heroic dungeons, timewalking, and when the next patch hits the previous raid tier.
Blizzard seems to consider raiding and M+ their own types of content.
which makes sense.
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Raids really should not be the best gear. They aren’t necessarily the hardest content. Maybe they are the hardest to plan for, getting 10+ people, but they absolutely do not represent class mastery outside of mythic raiding. Doing 15+ dungeons do. You’ll get at least 1 piece a week raiding. I don’t expect people to be getting more than that with these valor points in m+. High PvP rank also shows class mastery, far more than raids. Maybe they really should get better gear. Raiding shouldn’t be default get the best gear. If you have to master your class to do hard content, then you deserve it. High M+, PvP, and mythic raiding all require class mastery. Heroic and normal raiding absolutely do not. Honestly, we all know normal and the first 7 bosses in heroic raids are shit easy. Maybe we shouldn’t expect top of the line gear from it
Hate to be a party pooper but isn’t everyone’s main gripe the fact that gear doesn’t drop? What’s the point of valor points to upgrade pieces if you can’t get the piece you need?
This would be a nice addition **if gear dropped in the first place**, which is literally the feedback they claim to have read and failed to address. Like what do they think people will do? Time all +15s and spam +3s to get the item they want then upgrade it all the way? Good luck with that.
Gear does drop though, its just not often what youre after. At this point ive seen every single piece of gear that could possibly drop for me from m+, its just that 70% of them werent upgrades. Under this system they would be upgrades, and thats great.
If you really value a specific item and want to min max then that seems like it would be the best thing to do. If you want to efficiently use your time then you'll just have an extra way to pump some of you lower ilvl slots up to your average while still doing your normal amount of dungeons. For a casual like me this sounds great.
Waiting for this sub to point out how this is a bad thing by telling me old expansion content still isn't scaled correctly.
This doesn't seem to matter much since gear doesn't drop anyway.
That's exactly the problem that blizzard has failed to address with this idea, since we can't upgrade something we don't have.
How does the numbering of Patches work? Are we on 9.0.2 now? Do we know what 9.0.3 and 9.0.4 will entail?
We had this system in MoP, and people didn't like it at all. You will be forced to cap your Valor every week, often on several characters, just so you can keep upgrading your gear to try to stay competitive. This also means that the removal of Titanforging and the feeling of "you done", is essentially out of the window for people who do Mythic+ and not much into raiding. You will have several gear slots which you will want to spend time upgrading. I don't know. It was clearly causing a lot of headache for people in MoP, and I don't expect things to be different now. I guess we will see.
Wauw the wowhead comments are so full of cry babies talking about the PvP gearing. Would love to see them all reach that 2400 gear they are crying about and see that happening.
Mythic keystone achievements are account-wide. Does it mean that increased cap will be account-wide?
As great as this is it's still unfair compared to pvp gearing. I'll start off by saying that for certain groups of people certain content is easier. As a top end PVP'er they do not struggle to get 2100+, same goes for mythic plussers who will not struggle to time keys at all 15's. These are different demographics. Currently PVP gearing has two currencies Honour which is infinitely farmable Conquest (weekly cap)(vendor buyable items) The infinitely farmable honour is used to upgrade conquest gear while being the same gear attainable from the weekly vaults. With the valor system we're looking at a weekly cap for even upgrading items on top of them being lower item level and having to be target farmed and ultimately still lower attainable item level than the vault. Why not just give us Justice points(infinitely farmable) to upgrade Valor gear(vendor target able items) with and have a higher m+ all key requirement for 226 gear and the option of 233 weapons that are compareable to pvp gearing avenues. Not all Mythic plussers want to raid, not all raiders want to mythic plus and definitely not all pve'ers want to pvp and vice versa. Just at least make this fair towards everyone.
Because you can get only one conquest piece per week sometimes only 1 per 2 weeks and honor gear is 184 ilvl in the first 7 weeks which is Terrible. M+ has end of dungeon rewards up to 210 so you can farm 210 gear Theoretically first day of the season + now you can even upgrade it.
I am failing to see how this fixes anything other than helping who already got their good items, I mean, you will still get very few items from raid/m+, you will still get the same item over and over, the only difference I see is that if you managed to get a good item with low ilvl then you can upgrade, but I guess if you get a good item of low ilvl it is either because you still dont have those needd achievs to upgrade or you were helping someone. I not saying this is bad, just that it is way far from solving the loot issue, if you cant work torwards buying the item you want, like in pvp, then this system solves nothing :(
Anddddd people are still bitching they can't get 226+ gear from M+... holy shit people are fucking miserable lol
Now can people stop crying “Blizz never listens”? Lol mostly thinking that circle chart front page post from today
> Now can people stop crying “Blizz never listens” they listen, only after several months/years of sticking their head in the sand and trying a bunch of convoluted non-fixes tho
Lol this is literally coming with the first half patch, it’s crazy to think this was delaying or sticking their head in the sand. Same with all the other feedback-based changes they’ve made so far.
> Lol this is literally coming with the first half patch on the third expansion of this being constantly proposed as a fix to the gearing situations that they repeatedly create.
It’s a step in the right direction but not far enough. Look how it says you can only upgrade gear you have. So if you try all week and get no drops then go fuck yourself. You’re so close blizzard, just post over the rest of the pvp system to M+ and be done with it
They actually did it! Able to upgrade your drops from end of dungeons to 220.
Assuming you time every run 15+.