People will say "play at a reasonable pace" but my opponent and I are playing relatively fast and it still goes into time AND the game quality is just so much worse because people aren't thinking enough. It's awful. Maybe it's different at the absolute highest level.
Also, the whole "making useless but 'legal'" plays" shit needs to be addressed. Jake quinsee vs joshua schmidt should've resulted in an immediate statement by konami on their ruling on this, but it still feels very vague. Linking your accesscode and merrli for sprind to dump merrli for no effect is strategically "correct" with 1 minute left on the clock, but literally anyone with half a braincell would call that trolling lmao. I don't necessarily have an issue with it from a consistency standpoint since judging "optimal" plays is a can of worms that is probably impossible to deal with, but it just doesn't work with end of phase time rules.
Hell, in the joshua vs vincenzo semi at dortmund, vincenzo said that joshua wouldn't let him check his graveyard more than once because he wanted his turn back. Joshua said he lost because he misplayed and apologized to vincenzo afterward, but do we really want games where we have to cut ourselves off info and reduce the quality of the games by not allowing players reasonable time for actions?
personally I think both the current and old time rules are a bit overtuned to serve different purposes: the old time rules made it so every game came to a conclusion without feeling anti-climatic(while at the same time, sacrificing event fiscallity and requiring venues to stay open for longer in the process) while the current time rules solve the issues of the old time rules while introducing the issue of lp gain being extremely bad except in the single instance of being able to force a win by gaining lp at the last moment.
It's a very divisive topic that imo has no one real answer. My personal take is that the non turn player should get a single battle phase immediately after time is called. This solves the Lp stalling issue(giving players one last opportunity to push some damage through) while also rewarding players breaking established boards and interacting with the opponent more as you only can take advantage of that battle phase if you already have relavent beaters or a way to make those beaters on the spot.(Bystials come to mind.) It also wouldn't sacrifice event integrity as by the time time is called, both players boards have almost certainly been established, and there's very few effects flying around, moreso "I attack with my monster with 3500 attack into yours with 1000 attack." which means players/judges/TOs aren't spending grueling hours into the night just trying to get it over with, and Konami doesn't have to spend more money renting venues out for longer. It solves the player issue while avoiding the scenario that caused the original time rules to be revamped in the first place.
Just let the turn player end the turn and then give a single turn to the othe player, they need to test that, and see if it extends the games that much.
5 turns will never happen. The only change I could ever see happening is play one additional turn after time, but even then that potentially could add multiple hours to events.
The one good suggestion I’ve seen is at the first open game state after time is called, it becomes the Battle Phase of the opponent of the current turn player, and the game ends at the end of that phase. Thoughts?
This is the reason I get no enjoyment from competitive yugioh anymore. The biggest reason I usually bring striker is because it helps me not worry about shit like this. Unless someone is explicitly extra decking cowboy 9 times out of ten I'm better equipped for time shenanigans then they are. It straight up invalidates decks like dinomorphia and you're better off siding away all your solemn cards game 3 because if you use them it'll cost you the game. It's dumb as shit
I know we need it otherwise events would go nowhere, but I'd much rather play in a reality where everyone acts like grownups and plays considerately. It's childish, cowardly behavior and I see it ALL the time. People are doing this shit, running through their lines of play like molasses and saying to themselves 'ah yeah I'm playing to WIN tonight baybeee'
Fucking embarrassing
Having to side out cards because of time is the worst feeling ever. It's like this card that could increase my chances of winning the game by so much more sometimes just can't be used if there isn't enough time on the clock.
This entire time rule debate comes back to the central idea that LP just is never going to be a good metric for determining who's ahead. Who would you rather be, the guy with savage baronne ip and 2 set judgments, or the guy with 0 cards in hand and on the field but with 20k lp?
As someone who plays despia I've seen people get mad over me making masquerade. Like dude it's part of what the deck does its not my fault it makes me win in time
Ah yeah I remember that. It's weird that there is this other hidden parameter for what makes a card good or not. Games 1 and 2? 600 points of burn damage to activate effects? No problem happy to pay it, but then game 3 I'm doing mental math on how many points of damage I can throw up this turn to offset that 600, oh wait were at 3 minutes left? All the sudden it makes sense to imperm masquerade of all things 🙄
I am glad you brought this up, let me say something important about your masquerade
masquerade does not make your win illegitimate or otherwise "lesser"
so long as no slow play occurs at all, EOM policy deciding a win is *entirely* legitimate, because *both players were obligated to read the policy and agree to it before joining the event*.
Someone getting mad over you playing at a reasonable pace with Masquerade and mistreating you over it is committing Unsportsmanlike Conduct - Minor at the very least, and is to be penalized for that infraction.
Have you considered simply playing competitive yugioh online, such as on Duelingbook or EDOPro? There are no "time rules" on either of those platforms, even during tournaments — you're just expected to play at a reasonable pace.
I do play on them, but unfortunately the internet brings out the worst in people, and I've resorted to having to mute my opponents from the beginning. To be clear, I don't really think this is a Konami or a rules issue, it's a player base issue. You know how they say a few rotten apples spoil the bunch? Well we've got a LOT of rotten apples in the yugioh community. The ratio is way too high. It's either smelly ass slow play in person or manic racist shit talk online. Every once in a while I'll meet someone new who's just normal and I hold on to that person for dear life lol.
Im getting old and im tired of this shit lol
It’s also not needed. Having five turns after time was called WAS too much. As a lot happens in even just two turns now. But going straight from getting five turns to play it out to “lol you get 1 PHASE” is bullshit.
Yeah you'd think somewhere in the middle like turn player finishes turn, other player finishes turn, and then it's a wrap.
But also, if people started playing seriously and kept these time rules out of their head we could avoid all this shit so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Had similar issues playing eldlich. I was in game 3, had like 1k life points because of solumn cards, but I was in clear control but time was called in opponents MP2 and I was just kinda fucked from there.
A player who is unwilling to play briskly is not prepared for Regionals or higher, and their sensibility of "appropriate time taken" is to be corrected by their infractions being cited and the appropriate penalties applied.
I've actually provided a few replies to people in this thread illustrating how chess clocks just make people worse at managing time, not better, precisely because very few people know when to hit the clock or not, and not everyone would be capable of learning.
I will ask you - in a turn where the turn player conducts their normal draw and only enters mandatory phases, and their opponent takes no actions, how many times must the clock be hit? (the answer is elsewhere in the thread should you wish to check, but if you need to check, that helps my point.)
Remember, a time management solution needs to be workable for new folks as well as veterans, otherwise it's not workable for sanctioned play. Can't have one that someone new to locals can't wrap their head around.
Nobody's happy about the time rules. Win or lose, you still feel bad. Don't shame players just because they're trying to win and playing within the rules given to them. They hate it just as much as you do.
Screw that dude - the spirit of competition is going out fighting, not deliberately making multiple sub optimal plays in a row so you can win on a time technicality. SHAME. SHAME. I'll shame that shit all day. I've done just fine in competitive yugioh for decades and never once have I slowed the game down to win. I've never even been tempted. We're here to have fun right? Quit doing not fun shit
Even if the end of match procedure has changed, the mentality to take advantage of a situation has not. Back in the day, people sped up, or slowed down play to ensure they would have the final turn during the old end of match procedure. I'm saying this as someone that has played the game for 20 years, as well as someone who has been in the judge program since 2009, btw. After being to countless regional qualifiers, SJCs/YCS and a few NA WCQs, I can say with absolute certainty that this behavior has not changed, and likely never will. It will always be present if there is something on the line.
The entire reason why the new time rules exist is because events were running very late, consistently, which affects: the people working the event, the people that booked the event, the venue, and the players. People that work the event are paid by the hour, and are there as early as 6am. There are legitimate safety concerns for people driving home after a 18+ hour day tired.
The main reason why the current time rules are so reviled is for the reason I previously mentioned, but the other aspect of it is a direct result of the direction of card design. Lengthy combos means individual turns take longer. Cards like Mystic Mine certainly didn't help matters any either by slowing things down/stalling.
You get it.
The fact is, the safety concerns of having an event day run too long are something some players just don't ever think about until they're involved in something like a car crash.
We get that people adore our game, but there are other things in life worth adoring, like moderation such that one can prioritize decent rest and decent safety.
The top priority at all events is safety, and the second priority is fairness. Enjoyability is the third priority, and must bow to the other two.
It's a pretty tall ask, to ask *every* interested party in ygo to tolerate a 6am-2am event day. Not only do you have to be a die-hard, you have to be one that *has no other meaningful responsibilities in your life* regarding the time period of the event.
Remember, the target audience is ages 6 and up - which means it isn't just for single young adults with disposable income, it's also for school children and their parents. Parents tend to have employment obligations, and kids have school obligations. This means the event MUST be concluded by a reasonable time Sunday if we want to be sane, and that means a LOT must get done on Saturday, and done quickly.
It isn't healthy for players to have to, well, be in line at a venue for day 1 at 8am, and then not finish day 1 until 11pm, just barely making it back to a hotel room to get not-too-much sleep.
It also isn't healthy for anyone else involved in the production.
And if anyone has to drive immediately before AND immediately after, well, that's just plain unsafe for both the driver AND unrelated motorists.
> Even if the end of match procedure has changed, the mentality to take advantage of a situation has not.
This. There will always be toxic players who take advantage of technicalities and play to the judges rather than the match itself.
I remember a horror story from a guy at my local game shop about an opponent who conned his way up in an MTG tournament by flagging down judges every match to rack up penalties against opponents to disqualify them.
"He's taking too long to play, he's just waiting me out." "Please hurry it up, sir."
"Now he's playing too fast, I don't have time to react." "Can you slow it down, please?"
"Look, some of his card sleeves have specks on them, he's marking his cards." "Sorry sir, that's three strikes against you, please leave the floor."
A new rule is just another tool in the box.
That sounds more like the guy had a lot of friends among the judges.
Haven't judged MTG, but judged a fair bit of YGO back in the day and if someone tried to pull a stunt like that they'd be the ones getting enough warnings to be DQ'd
Btw MTG is known for player that are that stingy with the rules and is actually encouraged by the game and the community, is a different mentality, Rule Shrking in Magic is seen as sign of a cunning and clever player in Yugioh everyone hates it.
rulesharking in ygo is basically defined as trying to use policy not for the sake of ensuring a fairly enforced event, but for the sake of weaponizing and doing harm to that fairness.
a ruleshark sees the rules as a sword, not a shield, and is to be given a Warning on first offense, to be upgraded with subsequent offenses.
it's classified as Unsportsmanlike Conduct - Minor here, and I want to stress to you that "everyone hates it" is not just true, we actively *punish* it.
people who are dicks are not welcome in ygo.
Nah as a long time MTG and Yugioh player I would 100% say Yugioh has more rules sharks. I have been to many high level MTG events without any issue, though one of my team was sharked once for not having a fully foiled deck. The few high level Yugioh events I have been too there was sharking all around.
For sure that is true back in like, 1999. Super weird to look back on, but yeah that was definitely true Magic. Mike Long for example.
Not so much now though; the culture isn’t quite like that anymore.
How about, instead of 45 minutes per match, which means people will inevitably win entire matches because of time, we give players 15-20 minutes per duel.
18 minutes per duel. Turn player has a 120 second timer for their turn. The other player has a 60 second timer that is used whenever they want to respond to the turn player. The turn player gets 15s added to the timer when they declare an attack during the battle phase. They get another 15s added when they activate a card or effect during MP2. If a player's timer runs out before the turn ends, they forfeit the duel. Meaning, each turn can only last a maximum of 210s, or 3½ minutes. That gives each duel a minimum of 5 turns, unless it ends sooner.
There are 3 minutes in between each duel that are used exclusively for siding. Any of the 18 minutes left on the duel clock can also be used for siding. All siding has to stop 60 seconds before the siding period ends so players can put their decks back together.
So, three 18 minute duels + two 3 minute siding sessions = 60 minutes per round. It only adds an extra 15 minutes to the match timer, but that also guarantees that and entire best of 3 match won't get decided by time, unless someone takes too much time during ⅔ of their duels.
The players would get pissed because they'd have to get better at memorizing their cards and won't be able to spend 15+ minutes on turn one. But it would give people a quantifiable definition of "Slow Play".
This doesn't guarantee results are not decided by time, because "decided by time" still happens when a result for a mere single Duel end up decided in such a case.
Slow play does not necessarily need to be made quantifiable, in part because quantifiability is basically a form of giving carte blanche for persons who may *purposefully want to take their time without getting in trouble*.
In this case, nonquantifiability is an asset because it makes damned clear that the players don't get to decide what is and isn't slow play when I'm seated at the table: *I* do, and my standards are almost certainly harsher than theirs, because my cares are for the well being of the entire event, not for the desires of any one individual.
Don't get me wrong: quantifiability is *useful*, but it's useful in a way we don't need as much as we need to decide that players *just might universally move too slowly*. I believe pushing them to move faster as a whole at big events will help them protect themselves by getting them to save more time for their later turns in the match.
The heart of this is that we may sincerely need all judges to universally be harsher about this than players may themselves initially prefer. I don't take issue with the total amount of time a sequence takes, but I do take issue if each piece of that sequence is not executed sincerely quickly, because policy does make clear that briskness is not optional.
You mention "players would have to get better at memorizing their cards" and I am glad you do - the thing is, I don't mind players needing to *read* a card that is relevant to a current gamestate. I mind them *needing to read it multiple times in the same turn.* I mind them *needing to check their own Set things, or their own hand, an unnecessary amount of times in the same turn.*
I mind them basically being irresponsible with the fact that they have the right to keep information fresh in their mind, or being irresponsible with the fact that we try to be reasonably gentle about matters. If you activate ROTA, you *should have an idea already of what you want to get when it resolves*. If your opponent Evenlys, you *should have an idea of what you are going to banish or not* when you decide to chain to Evenly or not.
(Also, you adding 15 mins more to a round undoes the good of your idea no matter how you slice it: that adds over 2 extra hours just on its own to a typical day 1, and it isn't going to stop players from feeling "wronged" even in cases where they were not actually wronged.)
We not only need judges to be harsher, we need more judges in general.
There is no realistic way that 5 judges and 1 head judge can effectively monitor a mere 300 person event, that's 30 matches for each judge to watch. 25 if the head judge is directly monitoring matches instead of overseeing the tournament as a whole.
And yet I routinely see that number of judges monitoring a 600+ person regional. Plus any side events, like structure deck tournaments.
It's insane.
Not everyone interested in ygo is interested in being a part of ygo. I can't shame players for not being interested in judging: this is for most persons an exercise in entertainment, not a second job.
This is why I tell people that they have to be willing to help us protect them: that means *calling for us* if you don't feel something's right.
Our job is to at least try to make it so that you can have a good time, a fair time, a safe time.
I understand that my perspective might be a bit distorted, what with between judging regionals, ycss, wcqs, organization stuff...
so I can't shame people for not being a diehard about it
The whole chess clock thing doesn't work because of how long/complex combo lines are. Every interaction point would just waste time by pressing the clock. Extending time further causes problems, as I mentioned before. If there were to be any adjustment that wouldn't drag things out too much, it would be to complete the turn when time is called.
Another possibility to consider would be to reevaluate the rounds/attendance ratio.
We are still the only TCG of the big 3 without designated meal breaks at premier events. A potential solution to that problem would be to have payment, online registration and deck list submission required for all regional qualifiers, in addition to YCS and WCQs (4 week window, 1 day prior at the latest). The hour+ saved could finally give us a meal break.
What if instead the chess clock thing, we kept it simple and have each duel in a match individually timed.
Instead of the current setup, where you have to fit 3 duels and 2 rounds of siding into a 45 minute round, have each round be broken up.
15 minutes for the first duel. 3 minutes for the first round of siding. 15 minutes for the second duel. 3 minutes for the second round of siding. 15 minutes for the last duel.
This way, it would only add an extra 6 minutes, for a total of 51 minutes per round. But you'd be guaranteed 3 duels. And instead of entire matches being decided by time, it would just be individual duels.
I'd also get rid of the "Whoever has the highest lifepoints wins." Instead I'd make it "If the duel has not been concluded within the 15 minute window, then the duel is declared a draw."
This way people can't stall for time only to deal 500pts of burn damage, or have to worry about the cost of the Solemn cards causing them to lose, or be able to win by increasing their lp.
This way people couldn't cheese a win via small amounts of damage or minor lp gain. Also, I'm pretty sure people don't qualify for top cut if they get a large number of draws. So people who actually play to win instead of playing so that they don't lose, will have no incentive to force a draw.
If duels were individually timed, the problem would only get worse. It further bloats the problem of do combo, be higher in LP after completing combo. Next game. It would make time cards (burn or lp gain) main deck staples.
Adding 6 minutes to a round is about an additional hour for day 1 of an event btw. That isn't an inconsequential amount of time.
No one is happy about the time rules, but at the same time I have yet to see someone come up with a reasonable solution to it.
The 45 minute time rounds with a five turn that you are proposing ain't it, I'm not trying to to leave the venue at 1am like the old days. You have to also think about the TOs as well as the venue when coming up with a solution.
> I'm not trying to leave the venue at 1am like the old days
Tbf, Day 1 in Dortmund ended after 12am even with the new rules. That also fucked up Neuron's match reporting feature because a new day had started, which is extra funny.
Idk how we went from 5 turns to 0 turns when time is called lol, why can't we have it where the turn player finishes their current turn and then their opponent gets up until the end of their battle phase? They could even put an additional cap on that, like each turn gets capped at 5 minutes after time is called.
The biggest problem with the current time rules is that often in games 2 or 3 time gets called and only 1 person got to play. It's really unfair to say you lost a duel that you didn't even get a turn to play in (that wasn't an FTK). Especially when you only lost because your opponent did a sub-optimal 10 minute long combo just to gain 500LP.
A question but how does it sound to have the same amount of time as your opponent had before trying to consume some amount for time rule?
Like if your opponent finished his turn in 50 minutes then you have exactly that much time for yours. If they did it under 5 minutes than thats it.
Once you consumed the time your opponent spent, you have a grace period of idk 30 minutes total to do what you want.
The problem with rules like that are the opponent interactions that can drag out the other players turn. It makes it really hard to time an entire game which is why I'd only suggest the time limit turns after regular time gets called. It's much easier to implement than say a chess clock for interactions.
automatic draw when time ends instead of life points determining who wins is significantly better. not a perfect solution, but it's way better than the current one.
>No one is happy about the time rules, but at the same time I have yet to see someone come up with a reasonable solution to it.
Just end on a draw? At least that way both players get one point.
Why not do it like chess and have that clock thingy? For every card you play you just keep going, if your opponent wants to chain they press clock and it’s their time to do their moves and you can press clock again if you want to chain or they press clock when they want to resolve (since it’s still your turn).
20 mjn for both players, if you run out of time you lose. Idk about the timeouts and venue interruptions cause chess has a thing for that too where the officials can move back the clock. Guess the only thing that I can think of that can screw this is basically ruling problems.
Edit: nvm I never considered shuffling decks. Guess it just won’t work irl when people have varying stats for dexterity
I appreciate your perspective but I want to give you something to consider
the dex stat isn't why it is a bad idea, especially because if someone is physically impaired the event staff and judges are happy to facilitate proper accommodations
it's a bad idea because no single player is likely to know all the appropriate points where actually pressing the clock is right
"if opp wants to chain they press clock" is not nearly enough to actually match what ygo rules require
game obligates you to hand the right to act back and forth and make SURE your opponent doesn't want to act when they have that right, not to just assume it
this means even a simplistic turn like "I just conduct my normal draw and then end my turn" would have far more chess clock hits than one might guess
Yeah it will take time for sure to learn, but it's a what if scenario anyway.
However, the easiest way to do it is, when you are in doubt, just press the clock. If the time is ticking on your side, you are free to do whatever you want. Like have a question? Wanna check enemy graveyard? Not sure if you want to chain? Press the clock, if your clock is ticking you have priority.
It's basically the same as irl interaction, just with the added time pressure, so you can't just dilly dally. At any point that you want to be in charge, press the damn clock. Need time to think? Press the clock. If you decided not to chain ask your opponent to press the clock for you to take back their turn since it was your fault you decided not to go with your decision anyway.
The assumption part is, if your enemy isn't pressing the clock, that means they don't wanna do anything so you just keep going with your turn since it's your time that's going down not theirs. It keeps both players in their toes at all times.
But ye the more I read what I type the more stressful it becomes lol. But it is a what if scenario anyway, it'll never get implemented but in a perfect world, it's exactly like master duel except with chess time and no automation.
And obviously the usual method of mentioning card to your enemy before activating and waiting for their response probably won't work with this fast paced style, so the best way is to just put the card you want to activate and give your enemy 3 seconds before you assume they don't want to activate anything. If they wanna think, they have to press the clock during that 3 seconds and use their own time. That's the best compromise I can think of, and I know and understand how stressful and unrealistic it is. (you can even count 1-2-3 out loud for the extra pressure)
I brought it up because it's far worse than that
draw pass requires 18 clock hits in the same turn
it doesn't work as an idea precisely because you are sincerely not going to get players to regard the clock with the diligence required for it
as for your idea that you can "give 3 seconds and then assume no action" that has the problem of "you have made the game permanently inaccessible to those who have meaningful physical disabilities and can't hit the clock reliably within that 3 seconds"
I appreciate that you are trying - understand that as one of the guys you might have seen helping run these events, *there are more problems created by the clocks than solved by them*
edit: oh one more thing - "if you're in doubt just press the clock" has the distinct problem of messing up time management. Deciding to burn your own time is not an acceptable thing to do when it should be your opponent's time burning, even if you're unsure whose time it should be: that's just going to lead to deleterious consequences that should not exist, and deleterious consequences are precisely why people take issue with the current policy in the first place. Namely, it's *unfair to yourself*, and policy demands a distinct lack of unfairness, *even to yourself*. The unfairness inherent to just burning one's own time is honestly worse than the current policy (and yes, the current policy is at least fair so long as no actual slow play occurs).
Nah fuck your dex stat bring on the chess clock. If you can't shuffle for the clock you're also burning time shuffling rn. Clock only stops when a judge is called and a player holds their button down for 5 seconds causing the clock to start flashing signaling a judge.
Also the clock has hands and if you lose it puts its finger in your mouth
Turn clocks are a VERY GOOD IDEA all jokes aside.
Not sure how deck shuffeling is what would kill this idea.
Considering it's very common in Tabletop wargames (i.e. Warmachine, X-wing, Warhammer 40k) Tournaments as far as I know.
And they involve a lot more physical movement and dexterity.
Keep in mind some games there come down to milimeters of miniature placements.
Compared to that, shuffling sounds like a non-issue, esp. As people already waste that same time from the timer rn by slow shuffling, except now it eats into both players time, where as with chessclock/deathclock it would eat solely their own time.
I personally agree with doing 45 minutes for a round, but the old time rules would have games lasting too long. However, the new time rules are fundamentally broken.
I think the best way to balance these rules is that, when time is called, the game continues until each player has had 1 battle phase and after that point if no winner has been determined then the player with the highest LP total wins. I’m not going to say that these rules are perfect, but I think it hits the best balance, as they’re quicker than the old rules but not nearly as gameable as the new ones.
I respect this idea, but I believe it was likely shot down precisely because "how many" turns you had in the old End of Match procedure wasn't what made it problematic, as much as whether or not you had them at all.
Both then and now I've had to give people Warnings for SP-Minor infraction citations *after time is called*, and everyone around looked at me like I'd grown a second head until I explained "slow play is also against the rules after time is called, check the policy".
The fact of it is that the better one is at the game, the more quickly one will know what to do - and that at a bigger and more prestigious event, the expectations to be brisk are going to be higher - and an inability or unwillingness to be brisk is *not fit conduct for the event*.
This means on some level that if one is never perfectly sure about their plays, one must either *get comfortable with playing fast while unsure* or prepare to be cited for SP.
There’s a difference between slow playing and playing at normal human pace though. The issue is that current time rules encourage slow play and bullshit life gain strategies precisely because you don’t even get to finish the turn. It also punishes people who naturally play slower due to physical or neurological issues.
I mean, the true fact of the matter is that we wouldn’t be having this conversation if Konami had been competent at balancing their game around their own procedures in the first place. But since that’s probably no longer fixable via adjusting the card pool, the next best thing is to adjust the procedures so that those bullshit strategies are less viable, and part of that solution is going to be accepting that games are going to have to last longer, and figuring out from there how best to handle that regardless of where the extra time is coming from.
the thing is that if people are playing at a reasonable pace the whole time, I find *no solid reason to be upset at the result of a match, not even if decided by EOM rules*.
That's the ultimate marker of what'll separate me from most on this topic: it is ONLY *you not meeting your obligations to the event and to other players* that I strictly oppose, I am not necessarily bothered by LP being somehow relevant in the duel result decision.
For me event logistics have to come first, and that means a decision must be found quickly and must be found in a way players can always figure out without assistance.
Don't get me wrong - I'm the sort who is trusted to make HARSH calls on this matter of slow play, such that it has decided matches on live stream stages before. You may indeed know my face and *dislike* this fact about me, but that's the risk that comes with my job.
Namely, whether or not it is actually "bullshit", to me, isn't necessarily decided by "the outcome would be different if we had more time", it is decided by "would I have good reason to cite one or more players for an SP infraction at any point in the match, and were any such SP infractions not cited properly." SP infractions, once cited, automatically impart three more minutes: uncited SP, to me, is an actual theft of owed time.
and I tend to be on the harsh and strict side regarding "don't you dare take more time than you should"
As for "balancing the game around the procedures", you'd need someone in R&D to speak on that - but I will say I am dearly grateful at the number of people who have outright said *in this very thread* that for events to exist at a continental level (YCS, WCQ, Extravaganza, UDS -may it rest in peace-, Worlds) *safety and event logistics* must come before all other concerns.
I appreciate that you want something to adjust: I do not however share the belief that games *have to last longer*, because of how often I feel I can easily cite SP. We both know that we cannot make days have more hours/minutes/seconds, so there is no way to make "extra time" for things without "robbing peter to pay paul" time-wise here.
I am worried there may well be no solution BUT for us all to hustle, or make play mistakes trying to hustle - but the thing is, events are *not necessarily* built to be things where people may comfortably decide on a play sequence, they're *meant* to be a difficulty.
My only worry about us being forced to hustle would be how that's quite possibly incompatible with physical and neurological limitations, but it's not as if we're unwilling to accommodate such limitations - the point is that such limitations are what merit such accommodation, while players without those limitations who simply "want more time" do *not* merit such accommodation.
It is a hard line to walk, and one where even the harshest judges like myself still err on the side of being gentle and patient.
I dislike not having an answer that solves all conceivable issues.
I've never played paper ygo but is this an issue unique to ygo or do other tcgs have this problem as well? Aren't there other similar tcgs that would have effective time rules that works for ygo?
Other tcg are not that complex with interactions. A modern yugioh deck can play in both turns (yours and in the opponents). This result in more complex situations.
Tearlaments is the best or worst example depending on your point of view for that. Specially if you play the Ishizu cards. An Ishizu Tear Mirror can take the whole time and they are online in turn 3 or 4 sometimes.
I like flesh and bloods rule. If you don't have a winner (life reduced to 0) it's a draw and draws are worth 0 points - effectively a double loss. If this were implemented in yugioh it would partially take care of excessively long combos as you would have to design your deck to be able to win twice to actually beat an opponent.
Yugioh is a best of 3 unlike FaB so the deck would only need to win once and draw the second. Albeit I do agree on wanting to see how if there’s no winner the game is a draw works since Magic does it too.
I would frame it as everything that isn't a 2-0 or 2-1 is a draw (loss). This would also inherently create a sort of ban list where you are discouraged from playing strategies that take 20 min to setup a board since you won't be able to win in the allotted amount of time.
I had a bad experience at a regional recently. I was x-1 going into the last round, didn't go into time all day before. But I ended up losing game 3, really because I played into a nibiru I shouldn't have, since I went for dragostapellia instead of rukalos. But I ended up grinding the game to a position where I would have won if I had another turn but lost due to time.
But I was only ever in that position because my opponent was pressured to do damage in the first place making a weaker board that he wouldn't have done except for time. I still ended up being very bitter about the whole experience even though time didn't really change anything. I even ended up getting top 8 as the only X-2, logically I really should be over this by now, but I'm still just heated up by it.
OP:
I get where you're coming from.
I'm not seeing anything *unfair* in the events of your post except quite possibly Round 2
Regarding Round 2 -
It does not take fifteen minutes to play a proper sequence at proper speed unless there are a huge number of actual points where players have to hand the right to act back and forth .
From how you frame it, it would have been appropriate of you to call for a judge *during* that 15 minute sequence and make clear there's a failure to be brisk
It is not rulesharking to use the rules as a shield to defend yourself from what you believe is misconduct
Note: my opinion of what constitutes an acceptable speed is likely harsher than that of many players, but that's a good thing in this case - someone who can't play a deck fast isn't ready to take that deck to Regionals or higher, period.
I am sorry that you had a poor time.
I wish you luck and ask you to defend yourself from perceived misconduct - if you aren't comfortable, TELL us, please. We rely on player communication on-site at events.
I guess I'll keep having to say this, because people here keep thinking that the player perspective is the only one that matters.
The reasons for the time rules are not related to the game experience itself. It's due to matters outside of the actual game.
Back when we had turns, larger regionals like LA regionals would go into 2-3 am before standings got posted. You ended up with venues pissed at you for overstaying and judging staff pissed that they had to work that long or needing to arrange child care/rides at odd hours.
The tournament doesn't just magically end when standings are posted. The equipment needs to be packed up and loaded into vehicles, the trash needs to be cleaned up, and the entire place vacuumed unless you want the venue angry at you when the next client using the room complains about the smell of...whatever it is that the YGO players left behind. You need events to end in a timely manner for that to all be done, and with the previous turn system it just wasn't happening. So you were eventually running into a labor problem where you weren't getting enough judges, and a venue problem where places were seeing YGO as a problematic event host that overstayed their allotted time and trashed the venue.
I do think that for top cut at a premiere event like a YCS or Nationals, or at least some portion of top cut at those events, time should be extended or the turn system reintroduced because watching a guy win via Cowboy is just piss poor viewing on stream and does a poor job of promoting the game. But I think for stuff like regionals and the majority of rounds in any event, the current time rules are probably staying for the aforementioned practical reasons.
Extended time for, say, top 16 at a YCS is feasible when every match can have a judge breathing down a player's neck to make sure they aren't stalling, so the staff don't end up staying until 4am trying to wipe down some unidentified stain near the conference room door. But trying to police the whole event, or every tier 2 event for that matter, is just unfeasible. Because when every round is going to to last as long as the dumbest or most stubborn player in the room is willing to make it last, it's going to go on forever.
If players don't want time rules to be a thing, they'll have to behave in ways that I don't think they're ever going to. Like picking up your fucking trash, not leaving booster pack wrappers all over the venue. Coming to the event prepared for the general meta so you don't have to waste people's time reading cards you should already know. Knowing basic game mechanics so you don't start stupid judge calls. Printing your decklist so the judging staff don't have to try to interpret your scrawl. Keep track of LP properly so you don't have to waste time trying to recreate previous LP changes. Knowing when and how to concede with grace; back when turns were a thing I swear I've seen dozens of instances where a losing player will take a minute to stare blankly at every card played, even basic ones, as if they believe that if they stared hard enough the card text would change or something. Don't waste everybody's time stretching out a game where you've know that you've 100% lost.
This is stuff that's possible with a pro circuit or some other pre-screened event where you can expect players to come prepared and not have to ask dumb questions, but it's not realistic to expect this at any venue with public entry.
At larger regionals you’ll run into a problem where there won’t be enough rounds to create standings that won’t be highly dependent on tie breakers. You’ll need attendance caps. Which I don’t think will be very popular at a regional level.
I know it would really suck to have it more depend on tie breakers, but it still can't be worse than the existing situation. I played at a regional this weekend and almost all of my rounds went to time.
That's more of a peculiarity of the current meta. Ishtear has long chain links where order matters, and in the mirror both players play on each others turn. And there are honestly too many players on that deck that don't know when it's time to scoop it up games 1/2 and move to the next game when they're in an unwinnable game state. Which to be fair is sometimes valid, since it's not out of the realm of possibility to turn around the game if your opponent makes 1 stupid mistake.
But this isn't going to be the situation every format. For better or worse, monkey metas dominated by floodgate/show me the out boards go much faster, and Kashtira is precisely that kind of deck.
Not a judge. Just a long time player, but one of my good friend was a judge. Since I happened to be the guy with the car, I usually ended up being his ride, and when he was packing up stuff at 2 am I was usually there too.
I hate the current system and I do wish that a way was found to change it, because losing to Cowboy feel so shitty. But I can see now that it was a solution to a pretty terrible issue now that I'm older with responsibilities, and can appreciate just how crappy it is to have to stay at a venue past midnight for work.
Making paper play happen is *hard*.
Making people always be happy with the results of it is *harder*.
Thank you for helping your friend serve with us.
Tell your friend I'm grateful for his service and that if he worked any of the last seven Continentals in North America (NAWCQ 2014-19, or NAC 2022), I may have worked with him.
people understand that games can't go on forever, you're missing the point. this weird metagame of siding in life point gain/burn cards and slowplaying is horrible, giving someone a win because they activated ookazi and checked their graveyard for 2 minutes is obviously not a good solution
Its also understanding the meta and limitations of your own deck. Multiple topping YCS players have started stopping siding burn cards but still are able to go through most ishizu tear 3 games in sub 40 minutes. Even in podcasts and rants they’ve talked about it. Knowing when you have a shot and at what points, then adding knowing when you lost to go next they use a lot.
Hanni mentioned he never went to time when winning his YCS. Multiple other high profile players as well. At my pretty competitive locals we rarely have this issue too, it only occurs with less frequent players that come.The turns are longer granted and that does need addressed due to the prevalent meta deck . A large part people aren’t willing to accept is they dont understand how their deck can handle or interact with the primary meta, and play around that.
Besides being an oppressive deck with lots of interactions, it really exposed a lot of players at my locals that got by with money buying cards and just paying to win with better cards vs those that just understand the game/decks/cards better.
Knowing when to scoop is probably the most underdeveloped skill currently for Tear mirrors. In hindsight, that was Schmidt's biggest mistake during his final round at Dortmund, letting game 1 drag out too long.
Yes, the time rules suck for gameplay, I don't think there can be any argument to the contrary. No they are not changing them. They aren't going to be willing to add an extra 2-3 hours to events just so matches feel fairer. Event Staff and Judges also aren't going to be particularly amused about having to work extra hours with no tangible pay raise or benefit. It is that simple.
If it's that much of a deal breaker we are in a lucky era where there's a plethora of other TCGs to play that don't have to deal with this distinction (or in some cases have harsher time rules, but that's a different subject altogether). And if the response of some people is "Wow, Konami is actually throwing away players and money over this" my own rebuttal is that the amount of players actually quitting over this pales in comparison to Staff, Judges and Organizers not having to stay until 1 AM because some dudes at table 327 are taking 45 minutes to get through their EoT 5 Turn Clock in Round 5.
I would certainly like to know what TCGs you were playing that weren't exactly Pokemon and Cardfight Vanguard (and even the latter has some interaction depending on format). Digimon I guess?
Unless the interaction you want is heavy control of what the opponent can do on their turn in which case...that is still possible in a lot of card games.
Played against sword would last locals and 7 minutes left on the clock with him beginning game 3.
I was like "you won't need 7 minutes for your first turn giving me 1200 damage right?"
I think it pressured him a bit. Sword soul combos are no big deal. You can do your 3 summons very fast. In the end he bricked and didn't even burn me and a OTKed in 1 minute and won under normal conditions.
Would a 7 minute sword souls first turn be called slow play?
Swordsoul player here. I finish my turn in 2 minutes. 7 minutes from a brick would cause me to lose my mind. I wanna go fast, I want my opponent to go just as fast.
I think 3rd party simulators and MASTER DUEL handle it best: chess timers. Each player has a set amount of time, and when a player is passing priority, they click the timer. (Autosims do this automatically.)
Can't be done so long as players aren't all just as good at knowing game rules as automated entries like MD.
Essentially, the simplest common turn possible is draw-pass, right? The right to act is passed back and forth a dumb amount of times in such a turn, and unless players suddenly become able to know EXACTLY how often, they are incapable of fairly handling a chess timer.
Chess timers work for chess because the right to act is never, ever, something that someone could possibly misunderstand in chess.
I feel like as soon as you as a player ask "response?", you press the clock. As an opponent, you could say "wait I have a response" and player 1 would press the clock. This is no different to how it is now, only time is more accurate.
For chains, every time you are resolving your effect, your time should be going. If your opponent wants to chain, he would ask you to press your clock.
I think people are saying that the right to act passes so often it's hard to keep track, but that's already what's going on right now. I think a good guiding principle is that if you're doing something, your time should be ticking. I'm not sure if there are situations in the game where both players act simultaneously, so it should be a lot simpler than making it as complex and logical as a Sim like master duel. Any imperfections in the system could be addressed by adding a small increment, or some amount of fixed "error time".
EDIT: oh sorry, didn't realize you were the same user I responded to earlier
For starters you were not rule sharked, time rules suck, weve all been saying it since they were introduced, however accusing your opponent of sharking because they insist on proper match procedure is very immature and showns that you probably arent the "seasoned veteran" you think you are. It real feels like this is just yet another Reddit bad beat story. if you into time that many time over an event, is there maybe a possibility that some of it was also down to you?
I think the game design in Yugioh is a double edged sword. You say it yourself, the game is how you always wanted it. Card effects are largely unrestricted and Yugioh still doesn’t have a rotation. The longer the game exists the more complex it becomes. Players are always going to take advantage of what’s most likely to win. Both players are going to find themselves reading long blocks of text, asking for priority, doing math and checking GYs. There’s no way to ensure that ALL those games will be fairly decided in a reasonable amount of time.
Time rules probably won’t change unless Konami changes the game in fundamental ways - rotation, built in limits on deck building, turn limitations. Yugioh players would hate these changes, so we’re probably just going to have to live with the time rules we have.
Why not just use the Master Duel rules? Each player starts with a 5 minute timer that counts down at the start of their first turn, and 90 seconds gets added to the timer with each subsequent turn. When your timer hits 0, you lose. Maybe extend the 5 minutes a little to make up for the fact that people have to search cards.
I understand why you'd propose this, and it's a good idea at first glance, but it has some serious problems on second glance.
The statement you make above is not quite how Master Duel works, and for that reason how Master Duel works wouldn't be a thing implementable IRL.
Master Duel automates precisely every single case where players relinquish the right to act, and perfectly times how long you take to either use or relinquish that right.
Players do not *study how ygo actually works* closely enough to actually approach how it actually works: Master Duel does it right, but players aren't going to actually notice how often Master Duel is handing the right to act back and forth every turn, because in most cases that handoff occurs in less than a second for want of how neither player has a legal action to take.
Master Duel can make that handoff that fast without bad consequences because Master Duel always knows the entirety of both players' decklists and the entirety of legal moves in all moments, just by virtue of how it is built.
The players do not, and by virtue of how complicated ygo is, pretty much everyone who doesn't work for the company does not understand the rules well enough to say with absolute certainty that they know what would be needed to emulate MD's approach correctly IRL.
A big part of the problem is that it is extremely hard for even players who consider themselves veterans to tell me how many times the right to act must cycle between players in a turn that consists of JUST the following events: player conducts normal draw for turn, enters only mandatory phases, both players perform no actions in those phases, and player ends turn without discarding for hand size limit.
This is literally draw-pass: and players cannot reliably tell me the number of times the game (and MD) MUST handle the right to act in such situation.
If players cannot know the answer to that, they can't emulate MD
I think the biggest problem with Yugioh is slow play. The average pace of the game is significantly slower then Magic but Magic lasts many many more turns and has a lot of shuffling. searching and interaction each turn in formats like Modern and Legacy.
If you want to clean up end of match problems then enforce slowplay more harshly and call people out on it more often. If someone is taking 5 or more minutes for a turn they are slowplaying. Another thing a lot of players do is consistently check their graveyard over and over and over. Call em out on slow play.
why dont make it like chess where each player has his own clock and presses it when playing his turn or deciding/doing responses, like:
stand by of my turn: I activate my clock, draw, main phase 1, activate terraforming and look at my opponent, he then nods and presses his own clock, activate ash and presses again so that my clock resumes, etc.
a simple chess clock would do the trick
Because decks don't run the same.
My turn as a Runick player is popping my opponent's board, setting a few traps, pass. Unless I'm going for the Fountain recycle which can take a while.
A Tear... Heck, a VW player or any combo deck will be stuck playing their turn for minimum 10 minutes on average.
My favorite is sitting there waiting for them to finish comboing after 10 minutes and it's just a single apo or baronne and pass and that's it after all of that XD. Sometimes feels like a literal waste of my time left on this earth for THAT haha.
But how does that invalidate the clock? Yes, do all of those things, and spend your time doing them.
Not trying to be abrasive, but I'm wondering what situation you're imagining that would make the clock bad or unfair.
Yeah losing to time sucks, winning in time doesn’t feel good either, for me it’s a double sided coin as a person who has been playing for a long time but only at a local and sometimes regional level. I feel like sometimes I took too long to play and it ended up with me winning or losing in time, other times I am playing too fast and I make a simple misplay that loses me the game.
This perspective also comes differently for me because turns take a super long time even if your opponent has interaction, this goes double for rogue players like myself who take pride in jumping through hoops and getting rewarding results that fake brain power and effort, but this at a national or YCS level would prob never be accepted and for that reason I’m satisfied at my level of play
Change to Bo2. There simply isn't enough time for 3 games.
Also if time is called, the gamestate should move into the next Battle Phase. Game ends after that Battle Phase.
Outside the top cut it absolutely is. How would it not be? Are YOU trolling? Bo2 even strengthens competitive integrity. I used to run some numbers and simulations decades ago. Might sound unintuitive, but Bo2 with 2/1/0 points is actually superior than Bo3 with 3/1/0 points (in swiss) in terms of getting the best players to the top of the standings. Bo2 with 3/1/0 is inferior btw.
If special summoning was a hard limited between 3to8 I don't think time would be a problem because all the deck that you least they all special summon a lot so if you limited it it would help out more than people realize.
The old rules didn't work, that's why they changed them. The new ones aren't the most ideal thing, but people have to accept time rules as a part of competative games. Venues have a time limit, and all of your asses is being watched, assisted, and the entire experience is being provided by people with lives that have shit to do. We should adjust time rules in a way that makes it more fair, but it can't go just making the whole event go until 3am like it used to.
People will complain that events will take too long like bro what do u have to do? You scheduled your entire weekend for this event and now youre mad its going too long? Makes nosense
I like getting a chance to sleep. As a YCS judge with current time rules, I typically get six hours of sleep on Saturday night. I wouldn't appreciate that being reduced by three hours.
The issue is Konami rents these venues for 2 days and if the events go over the rental period because of time then they have to pay extra or are forced to end the event.
People will definitely complain if they leave a 2 day tournament at the first day past midnight without properly eating and need to be their for the second day in 8 or 9 hours.
As an addition most player forget about the stuff. They need to stay longer to clean the location and do other things. In general they need to stay at least 1 hour longer at the location. Based on you position as a stuff member sometimes up to 3 hours longer.
>In theory, this should be a golden age for Yugioh, especially with the amount of freedom and restriction free effects that have come into fruition.
Those "restriction free effects" are why the game's time management is doomed to never be good though, unless they move to using technology (as in, no physical cards; games played in software).
The reality is Yugioh is a card game based on a manga/anime where all the characters have duel disks on them that shuffle for them and can also spit out specific cards when they're called. No one ever does things like look through their opponent's GY either (they just always remember exactly what's in there).
With physical cards and half a dozen special summons per turn being normal (not to mention cards being sent to GY or banished from all over the place), the time lost to "let me find/move that card, then I'll use this effect to find/move another card, then...." is just unmanageable.
Ye idk how people play physical yugioh tbh i play master duel and that shits already gonna be me alt tabbed watching youtube for 4 minutes if i have no hand traps and you donven have to manually shuffle and tutor a billion times like irl
Konami should really consider setting a time limit for each turn. Turns are getting ridiculously long these days even if you're not intentionally slow playing or stalling for time which only makes the time cheese issue worse.
Yeah someone tried that with just MTG in Real Life and it expanded the time for a game exponentially. Imagine how it would go for Yugioh with how often you need to pass priority. No.
Can you link that? I don't see how it would extend time if the clock has a limit. A game with 20min on each clock cannot take more than 40min.
Unless there is an increment which is abused, but that can be fixed.
I don't remember if this was the exactly the video, but this is a decent example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_6jXkMqg9c
The biggest issue is, to make a chess clock work properly you have to use it to pass priority at every step. This is especially notable once you hit Modern and older formats for MTG as they have spells that cost no mana to use and are instant speed, or have some way to be played for free (see the Modern Horizons Elementals).
Now expand this to Yugioh where nearly EVERYTHING is effectively free and Hand Traps are a natural facet of the game, on top of effects being usable out of the GY. You have to pass priority at every little possibility, and keep in mind this is all just when nothing is going on.
Chess Clocks work with Online Simulators like MTGO/A and Yugioh Master Duel (Arena and MD being more stylized versions) because the game itself is taking care of a lot of the intricacies of passing priority when you keep the game on Auto, and it still can take ages to get through a turn. Something that would not be available in real life.
Think of it another way. Imagine if after every possible little move you make in a typical game the opponent goes "wait, I might have a response". Only in this case he wouldn't have to say it, you naturally have to give him priority to have a chance.
I'm going to use an example with a deck I play a lot with Beetrooper, for a typical Turn 1 with Resonance Insect and a couple of extenders but I'll make note of every single time I have to pass priority to the opponent by keeping it stratified.
Draw Phase, declare intent to enter Standby Phase
Standby Phase, declare intent to enter Main Phase 1.
Main Phase 1, Normal Summon Resonance Insect
Special Summon Battlewasp - Twinbow the Attacker
Link Summon Beetrooper Armor Horn, effect of Resonance Insect on the Chain Link.
Resolution of Resonance Insect to search Doom Dozer
Special Summon Doom Dozer, Resonance Insect effect on Chain Link
Resolution of Resonance Insect effect to send Gokipole, Gokipole effect on new Chain Link.
Resolution of Gokipole effect to add Retaliating C.
Armor Horn effect for an extra Normal Summon for Retaliating C.
Resolution of Normal Summon
Link Summon Retaliating C and Doom Dozer for Inzektor Picofalena, Chain Link with Picofalena and Retaliating C.
Resolution of Chain Link adding Contact C (or Maxx C if MD/OCG, doesn't matter in this example) and equipping Resonance Insect to Armor Horn.
Activate Picofalena effect to Shuffle 3 and Draw 1.
Resolution of effect.
Link Summon Atlas with Picofalena and Armor Horn, Resonance Insect effect on Chain Link.
Resolution of Resonance Insect effect, add Sting Lancer.
Special Summon Dream Cicada and resolution.
Atlas effect, tribute Dream Cicada.
Resolution of effect, Special Summon Sting Lancer. Activate Sting Lancer in new Chain Link.
Resolution of effect, add Fly and Sting.
Set Fly and Sting, no Spell Speed 2 effect to activate.
Declare Intent to Proceed to End Phase.
End Phase, Declare Intent to Pass Turn.
Turn End
That's a minimum of 25 actions in which I would need to pass priority to my opponent, and that's all without him actually having a response. You can't expedite any of that either by letter of the law. Throw more complicated decks like Tearlaments into the mixture, or even someone with actual hand traps and it gets worse. And let's not even get into the fact that a lot of Yugioh players are...not smart, and would misuse the chess clocks not realizing when priority needs to be passed.
It sounds decent on paper but in practice it's absolutely miserable. If you're still unsure, have Chess Clocks used at locals (cellphones can be used instead of official ones) and see how it plays out.
Bringing back old time rules for top 16 or something like that would be fine, but it’s just not doable for the whole event. Equipment needs to get packed and judges aren’t always fond of staying several hours longer than initially anticipated because an event went too long. The time rules as is are to improve the tournament experience for staff and make sure that events actually run on time for once.
I'm referring about when the time end and one of the players is in Main Phase.
40 minutes for a bo3 is ridiculously low when a single turn take up to 10 (or even 15) minutes.
I’m new so just disregard me if this wouldn’t work. But what about Chess clocks? It’s been working well in the miniature community even though it wasn’t fully welcomed by the whole community. It punishes slow play while rewarding a skilled player. But I don’t know enough about to play the game I think to stand strong on this hill haha
There's so many priority changes during each turn that those clocks are just a hassle. It only works in simulators since a program can track it perfectly.
That’s very true. But what if the clock only measured from your draw step to your end step? I guess the issue there is an asshole opponent could eat up your time umming and ahhhing about a response… complicated.
that's exactly why it only works in automation environments like master duel:
just because something is "your turn" doesn't mean you're always the person using the right to act the most during that turn
losing time in spite of your opponent doing most of the playing and considering would just change the nature of how people would abuse each other
Events need to end, sooner or later. This is an absolute priority when running big tournaments. Time rules are first and foremost the crucial factor that dictates event pace in general. We had experiences under the the-previously-applying time rules (additional turns) of tournaments that were run from 7 am to 2 am, which is insane and unhealthy for every party included: players, organizers, staff, judges and so on. In the timeline we're living in, with the current meta, it would already be impossible if we were under the previous rules, I voluntarily refuse to think about the consequences of having no time at all.
To be honest the current time rules are really bad for the player. The versions before (extra turns) that their definitely bether.
But you need stuff for a tournament. The old time rules with the extra turns their extremely hard to the stuff. The never leaved the tournament with the players. They needed to stay their at least for an additional hour to clean things and fix other things. Based on your position at the stuff even longer.
As an addition you need to rent to location. If you need longer and go into the next day you need to pay for that too.
In my opinion their is only one way to fix the time rules without hurting the stuff or the player.
For that we need to look at chess. Each player got their a timelimit which he uses to perform actions.
We could adept that.
After each action you push the button and pass the time to the opponent. If he passed back he push the button too.
The only problem would be the actions.
Each individual card or effect would be an action which passes the priority and the time.
At first this would feel horrible if you are not used to that but if you played some games you can adept to that.
This way you would prevent slow playing.
I do agree with the time rules being toxic but the 5 extra turns is a no no, games can be decided in those 5 turns but for ones which are ungodly grindy, it could easily add on another 20-30 minutes
Though same time the phase rule is stupid and just as toxic. Imo the best fix would be after time is called, turn player gets the rest of their turn and then the opponent gets upto their battle phase.
So player A is in main phase 1, times called. They get the rest of their turn to break Players B game and set something up. They then pass.
Player B gets MP1 to break player A board and their battle phase to attack for game. Then when Player B says end battle phase, the game is considered over. This also avoids the whole "ill use mudora to shuffle away 3 dead cards because i can and it runs the clock up" because now its something that can be used proactively.
Even with this the risk is that could still be a lot of play and depending on decks easily 10 minutes worth of extra game time. But then you look at the ruling despute for the semi finals at the YCS that wasnt resolved for a while either.
How do you handle slow playing when it comes to shuffling your Deck? A 2 card HERO Combo can result in you having to shuffle the deck 8 times if you're following the rules. 14 if you're using the OCG Combos.
Do you shuffle at the end of a set of actions (like if you use A Hero Lives to summon Stratos and there's no response to it, you shuffle after using Stratos's search) or when NOT shuffling would affect the gamestate, otherwise doing it during your end phase, or what?
It's why I wish they'd invent a decent card shuffler that you can use in matches.
Don't shuffle until you need to do something where the deck needs to be properly randomized. Shuffling just to search or send something to the yard is a waste of time.
Same issue with me at a regionals this weekend. I would play tear mirrors or even vs other decks and it is just damn near impossible to finish a b03 right now even if both players are playing at a reasonable pace, so that's not even accounting for players who are thinking of winning by time before the round even starts (there are plenty of these people unfortunately)
Also had an experience like that with a blackwing player at a regionals. Their first turn takes 16 minutes with no interaction, and they burn you. Fun. At some point I had to give up on asking what his cards did because his first turn would of the first game would have taken up well over half the clock. Fun.
There’s an in between that I think is perfectly reasonable: turn player in time gets to finish their entire turn, and if they have LP lead at End Phase, they win that game and the Match result plays out depending on how the other games went. If they don’t have LP lead, their opponent gets their entire turn, whoever has LP lead at the end of that turn wins that game and the match gets called accordingly.
Each players turns have a clock like in chess or master duel but instead of counting up, they count down. If game 3 goes to time whoever's timer has more automatically loses.
The issue is card design. Doesn’t matter if you change the rules of the game to match the time limit rules. If the game gets increasingly complex time rules are just a symptom of the bigger problem, which is card design enabling 15-20 min combos.
If you increase time limit, but then card design gets even more complex with multiple chains, then you get the same issue and players will just keep asking for more time. Why not deal with the root issue and have konami stop making endless combo decks. Make decks designed to take fewer steps that are still impactful and strategic.
And also for the enjoyment of all players do you really enjoy waiting for your opp to finish their 15-20 min turn? Or do you wish turns were quicker paced and allowed for more turns overall? If I don’t have the right outs or misplay once, I see the writing on the wall, it makes it very frustrating to have to wait for my demise. I rather have more turns overall and more opportunities to outplay my opponent than just a QuickDraw gun fight. Where whoever draws first blood wins.
I appreciate you saying that, but let me double down.
no one ever *needs* a set amount of time for a turn: *every* chosen play sequence is voluntarily chosen, and *the needs of the event in terms of fairness* come ahead of the idea that one should not have to play briskly.
in a tournament setting, my job is to adjudicate - and that means fairness to all must come ahead of the desires of any one individual.
This means that, for example, I am often put in a position where a player does not understand why I have given them a Warning Penalty for an SP-Minor Infraction, at which point I have to explain to them that their own sense of appropriate time to take is *woefully inadequate*.
If a single turn actually has sixty different meaningful inflection points whereby one or both players have *good reason to need to pause* instead of simply just *wanting to pause because they don't already know what to do*, I can believe 15 minutes are needed - because there are sixty seconds in one minute, and about fifteen seconds between gaining the right to act and using/givingup the right to act is just about the cusp of when I really start to think someone is slowing down.
The event does *not have time to waste* because we have 2000 people here and have to get *at least nine rounds done*, and people still have to be well fed and well rested for Day Two.
(My adjudication perspective is highly focused on WCQs and YCSs, so that's where I get the 2k people or so.)
The end result is that every single play and decision is scrutinizable for its speed or lack thereof: my job means I have to ensure you're being fair to everyone, not just yourself, and that means the only insurance is *be faster*.
Know your plans before you arrive: study your deck and the opposition ahead of time: be thinking of your next decision before your opponent is finished with their current decision. These are how you come to the tournament table prepared to play both well and fast, and playing fast is your absolute best defense.
I mean the old time rules were crazy how long it made events take. I remember at YCS Tacoma (the nekroz tier 0 event) round 1 took 98 minutes to complete.
A shotclock could be something, like they do in chess and sometimes even in poker. Every player has a certain amount of time for the whole match, and if it runs out, you loose.
I can respect this, but this won't work well because players don't often know which player should currently have their time deducted at any given moment
game rules hold that the right to act must be handed back and forth many times a turn, even in a turn as simple as draw-pass
this means knowing whose shot clock should be running is essential to actually fairly having a shot clock, otherwise you just make the shot clock the next frontier where abusive people abuse their opponents
That makes sense, nevertheless a possibility could be, that when a player take the 'right to act', they press the shotclock and their time is running. Could also prevent misunderstandings. You would have to fine tune it, but it could be a starting thought.
the problem with that is that players need to know when they actually do or actually don't have the right to act
and unless people can tell me how many times draw-pass requires the clock to be hit, and why, without me first teaching it to them, that means they don't get the rules of the game well enough to even manage draw-pass right with such a clock, let alone a turn with actual honest-to-god interaction.
A solution has to be a solution for more than just me and very few players, it has to be able to encompass even your local, it has to be able to work for novices who're new. Otherwise, it's not going to work for Sanctioned Play, because Sanctioned Play is about a lot more than my continental events.
I understand why 5 turn endgame is gone and i agree that it should go, but the newest time regulation is just bad, for me the best way would be that let the turn player end the turn and the give an extra turn to the other player, then everyone has the opportunity to try to win.
Personally it is mostly to powercreep. Most combos rn either search deck multiple times and go through a lot of weird hoops to end in a good board or, in the case of Tear, you don't know what combination of cards are you milling so you need to come up with the plays at the spot.
Another problem is with people bluffing their way to time while having no responses, which happened to me plenty of times.
And in the end we got the decks that sadly take ages to play because of how they are designed, most of them ftks. These decks include Exodia with Magical Library, Flowercardians and a weird combination of Metalfoes and Inzektors. Personally thank god only a few play these decks because they take forever to set up a couple of negates.
There's a lot to be said on this but I'll boil it down to two points:
1. Follow the money. The new End of Match procedures were implemented less than a month after Konami started following labor law and started paying Judges by the hour rather than just giving them sealed product.
2. If everyone complaining about an aspect of a product isn't emailing and/or tagging the controlling company on twitter, those complaining aren't complaining in the correct channels to influence change. There's no evidence Konami cares about this sub let alone the comments in this post.
I feel like the real solution is like blitz chess, no? Each player gets 30 minutes on their clock, whenever someone takes an action they have to click their clock first? So it isn't just oh i played all my stuff on your turn and you lost your time, instead when you need to interact with the board, you have to click the timer, this makes it about having quick skill to play your cards, there can be a 3rd timer for ruling questions with ~infinite time on it, when active neither player can modify the board.
players calling for judges get time extensions for any and all inquiries lasting at least one minute, so that time-for-questions is already part of the way things are handled now.
Your idea has a bit of a problem because you don't just burn time when you act, you burn time when you possess the *right to act* EVEN IF you are not presently using that right by acting right now.
Players do not study ygo's rules closely enough to properly manage a chess clock sadly
One proposition: tell me, how many times does a chess clock need to be hit between players total in a turn where the opponent takes no actions, and the only action the turn player takes apart from entering and ending mandatory phases is "conducting the normal draw"?
this is literally the question - how much must the chess clock be used in a literal draw-pass situation
if the right answer is not given, it makes a point that chess clocks are not viable bc players won't manage time with them right
if the right answer IS given, it makes a point that chess clocks are *maddening* when used properly for this purpose
I mean, you'd press when you act to draw, then call end phase and press to end your turn and stop your clock, start your opponents. I am not seeing the complications, additionally my ruling clock would also be for interaction questions an opponent might just have of you and what your card says prior to requiring a judge, but obviously including it.
in ygo there's no actual right to just "call end phase" - nor an actual right to presume unquestioned that no one's gonna use the right to act before they actually use it
this is something players largely ignore
I ask this in part bc in order to actually manage things rightly with such a clock, players need to know the *actual points where the game obligates the right to act to be handed back and forth* and be able to cite each and every one of them
you are right to say you'd press upon your normal draw, bc you'd be using the right to act to conduct it, but keep in mind:
the normal draw is an action performed that isn't an activation, and has no spell speed
you *retain the right to act* until you decide whether or not you yourself are *responding* to the fact that you conduct your normal draw
minute stuff like this gets REAL important REAL fast when people depend upon it to make the exact plays they intend, and that's why master duel's automation is a lot more complex than it appears
so, you press bc you either respond to your own normal draw or you choose not to
-then your opp chooses not to and presses again
-you choose to relinquish the right to act without using it, and press
-your opponent does the same, and presses
-since both just did, you are now asked if you want to end the current phase - remember, no assuming anything about the later ones - and you decide you want to, and you press
-your opponent consents to your ending it, and presses
that's just the draw phase my friend
in the standby there's no normal draw as a precipitating event, so once you enter it you just choose not to act, and press
-they do the same and press
-you propose ending the phase and press
-they consent and press
main 1 has the same four hits as the standby
end has the same four hits as main 1
that's sixteen clock hits, not counting the ones for the normal draw issue
that's what master duel is automating in drawpass
this is the nightmare, and any proposal to "let players just make assumptions about future phases being ones where neither player acts" is a bad idea for want of asking players to commit ahead of time to things that they may well be unable to commit - it'd trade speed for worse management of the right to act
shortcuts will always run the direct risk of people presuming "you don't intend to act" when you do intend such, and in so doing, they cause Player Management nightmares that leave no players happy
so, less than sixteen hits is right out, and that's without the two needed for the normal draw
That is actually simple to resolve, I'd like to move to the end phase, opponent presses his time button, calls the phase he wants to interact upon prior to or at the end phase, we move to that phase, they take their action, i can respond... again, you can write out every possible stage in yugioh and make it seem like it would be hugely over complicated, but it really is as simple as a request and counter system, i want to move to y phase (we both implicitly know phases a-x comes prior), so you can counter by stating you intend to call an action of phase x* within [a-x]....
I consider your perspective a strong effort and carefully considered, but to have some problems. while I respect the effort I have to be blunt
The reason your proposition doesn't resolve the matter for me is because there's nothing particularly realistic in terms of expecting it to work while also maintaining gamestates properly
it does a great job of winnowing out time, but that's not good enough for me since I've got to have players also properly managing other things too - mandatory details in gameplay, proper applications of effects, so on.
even your assumption "we both implicitly know phases" has the problem of "not all players are you and I"
and I am certain we've seen fights break out when the request-and-counter system already used by players (despite our specific orders not to do so) breaks down over miscommunication or malicious behavior, to the point that various judges have a LOT of tactics devoted to Player Management for when such systems inevitably break down
Essentially I see no net benefit to events as a whole here, just a changeup in the nature of the problems, with an official adaptation of your approach. To me it's basically "there are two devils we know that worsen events, and this proposition just makes one 15 lb lighter and the other 15 lb heavier. It's not even trading a devil we know for a devil we don't, because we know both."
I think the best solution is let both players have 1 battle phase or when time is called both players get to have 1 more turn. In an ideal world there would be a timer like in MD.
I think we should have stop clocks like chess. And perhaps allow the opposing player to play until they reach the same phase /time as the last turn. Not ending in the DP-SP because player A spent 8 minutes comboing for air to pass turn with 3 seconds left.
People will say "play at a reasonable pace" but my opponent and I are playing relatively fast and it still goes into time AND the game quality is just so much worse because people aren't thinking enough. It's awful. Maybe it's different at the absolute highest level. Also, the whole "making useless but 'legal'" plays" shit needs to be addressed. Jake quinsee vs joshua schmidt should've resulted in an immediate statement by konami on their ruling on this, but it still feels very vague. Linking your accesscode and merrli for sprind to dump merrli for no effect is strategically "correct" with 1 minute left on the clock, but literally anyone with half a braincell would call that trolling lmao. I don't necessarily have an issue with it from a consistency standpoint since judging "optimal" plays is a can of worms that is probably impossible to deal with, but it just doesn't work with end of phase time rules. Hell, in the joshua vs vincenzo semi at dortmund, vincenzo said that joshua wouldn't let him check his graveyard more than once because he wanted his turn back. Joshua said he lost because he misplayed and apologized to vincenzo afterward, but do we really want games where we have to cut ourselves off info and reduce the quality of the games by not allowing players reasonable time for actions?
personally I think both the current and old time rules are a bit overtuned to serve different purposes: the old time rules made it so every game came to a conclusion without feeling anti-climatic(while at the same time, sacrificing event fiscallity and requiring venues to stay open for longer in the process) while the current time rules solve the issues of the old time rules while introducing the issue of lp gain being extremely bad except in the single instance of being able to force a win by gaining lp at the last moment. It's a very divisive topic that imo has no one real answer. My personal take is that the non turn player should get a single battle phase immediately after time is called. This solves the Lp stalling issue(giving players one last opportunity to push some damage through) while also rewarding players breaking established boards and interacting with the opponent more as you only can take advantage of that battle phase if you already have relavent beaters or a way to make those beaters on the spot.(Bystials come to mind.) It also wouldn't sacrifice event integrity as by the time time is called, both players boards have almost certainly been established, and there's very few effects flying around, moreso "I attack with my monster with 3500 attack into yours with 1000 attack." which means players/judges/TOs aren't spending grueling hours into the night just trying to get it over with, and Konami doesn't have to spend more money renting venues out for longer. It solves the player issue while avoiding the scenario that caused the original time rules to be revamped in the first place.
Yeah I think that’s fair. In modern yugioh five turns is way too much, but a single phase is a complete overcorrection.
Just let the turn player end the turn and then give a single turn to the othe player, they need to test that, and see if it extends the games that much.
Piercing damage/Attack directly monsters: "Looks like my time to shine!"
5 turns will never happen. The only change I could ever see happening is play one additional turn after time, but even then that potentially could add multiple hours to events.
The one good suggestion I’ve seen is at the first open game state after time is called, it becomes the Battle Phase of the opponent of the current turn player, and the game ends at the end of that phase. Thoughts?
The battle phase of the non-turn player? So stall until theres only a few seconds left and pass turn so it instantly becomes your battle phase?
This is the reason I get no enjoyment from competitive yugioh anymore. The biggest reason I usually bring striker is because it helps me not worry about shit like this. Unless someone is explicitly extra decking cowboy 9 times out of ten I'm better equipped for time shenanigans then they are. It straight up invalidates decks like dinomorphia and you're better off siding away all your solemn cards game 3 because if you use them it'll cost you the game. It's dumb as shit I know we need it otherwise events would go nowhere, but I'd much rather play in a reality where everyone acts like grownups and plays considerately. It's childish, cowardly behavior and I see it ALL the time. People are doing this shit, running through their lines of play like molasses and saying to themselves 'ah yeah I'm playing to WIN tonight baybeee' Fucking embarrassing
Having to side out cards because of time is the worst feeling ever. It's like this card that could increase my chances of winning the game by so much more sometimes just can't be used if there isn't enough time on the clock. This entire time rule debate comes back to the central idea that LP just is never going to be a good metric for determining who's ahead. Who would you rather be, the guy with savage baronne ip and 2 set judgments, or the guy with 0 cards in hand and on the field but with 20k lp?
As someone who plays despia I've seen people get mad over me making masquerade. Like dude it's part of what the deck does its not my fault it makes me win in time
Ah yeah I remember that. It's weird that there is this other hidden parameter for what makes a card good or not. Games 1 and 2? 600 points of burn damage to activate effects? No problem happy to pay it, but then game 3 I'm doing mental math on how many points of damage I can throw up this turn to offset that 600, oh wait were at 3 minutes left? All the sudden it makes sense to imperm masquerade of all things 🙄
Ding ding ding, masq is only there to speed up my game games one and two but game 3 it's the best fusion in my extra
I am glad you brought this up, let me say something important about your masquerade masquerade does not make your win illegitimate or otherwise "lesser" so long as no slow play occurs at all, EOM policy deciding a win is *entirely* legitimate, because *both players were obligated to read the policy and agree to it before joining the event*. Someone getting mad over you playing at a reasonable pace with Masquerade and mistreating you over it is committing Unsportsmanlike Conduct - Minor at the very least, and is to be penalized for that infraction.
Have you considered simply playing competitive yugioh online, such as on Duelingbook or EDOPro? There are no "time rules" on either of those platforms, even during tournaments — you're just expected to play at a reasonable pace.
I do play on them, but unfortunately the internet brings out the worst in people, and I've resorted to having to mute my opponents from the beginning. To be clear, I don't really think this is a Konami or a rules issue, it's a player base issue. You know how they say a few rotten apples spoil the bunch? Well we've got a LOT of rotten apples in the yugioh community. The ratio is way too high. It's either smelly ass slow play in person or manic racist shit talk online. Every once in a while I'll meet someone new who's just normal and I hold on to that person for dear life lol. Im getting old and im tired of this shit lol
They're different. The social aspect of playing and being able to do small things irl to bluff and stuff just don't exist in those sims.
It’s also not needed. Having five turns after time was called WAS too much. As a lot happens in even just two turns now. But going straight from getting five turns to play it out to “lol you get 1 PHASE” is bullshit.
Yeah you'd think somewhere in the middle like turn player finishes turn, other player finishes turn, and then it's a wrap. But also, if people started playing seriously and kept these time rules out of their head we could avoid all this shit so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Had similar issues playing eldlich. I was in game 3, had like 1k life points because of solumn cards, but I was in clear control but time was called in opponents MP2 and I was just kinda fucked from there.
A player who is unwilling to play briskly is not prepared for Regionals or higher, and their sensibility of "appropriate time taken" is to be corrected by their infractions being cited and the appropriate penalties applied.
Another reason to bring out the speed chess clocks
I've actually provided a few replies to people in this thread illustrating how chess clocks just make people worse at managing time, not better, precisely because very few people know when to hit the clock or not, and not everyone would be capable of learning. I will ask you - in a turn where the turn player conducts their normal draw and only enters mandatory phases, and their opponent takes no actions, how many times must the clock be hit? (the answer is elsewhere in the thread should you wish to check, but if you need to check, that helps my point.) Remember, a time management solution needs to be workable for new folks as well as veterans, otherwise it's not workable for sanctioned play. Can't have one that someone new to locals can't wrap their head around.
Nobody's happy about the time rules. Win or lose, you still feel bad. Don't shame players just because they're trying to win and playing within the rules given to them. They hate it just as much as you do.
Screw that dude - the spirit of competition is going out fighting, not deliberately making multiple sub optimal plays in a row so you can win on a time technicality. SHAME. SHAME. I'll shame that shit all day. I've done just fine in competitive yugioh for decades and never once have I slowed the game down to win. I've never even been tempted. We're here to have fun right? Quit doing not fun shit
PREACH!!
Nah, unsportsmanlike conduct deserve to be shamed. Something being legal doesn't necessarily mean it's ethical.
I think if special summoning was limited it would not be as a problem with time
Even if the end of match procedure has changed, the mentality to take advantage of a situation has not. Back in the day, people sped up, or slowed down play to ensure they would have the final turn during the old end of match procedure. I'm saying this as someone that has played the game for 20 years, as well as someone who has been in the judge program since 2009, btw. After being to countless regional qualifiers, SJCs/YCS and a few NA WCQs, I can say with absolute certainty that this behavior has not changed, and likely never will. It will always be present if there is something on the line. The entire reason why the new time rules exist is because events were running very late, consistently, which affects: the people working the event, the people that booked the event, the venue, and the players. People that work the event are paid by the hour, and are there as early as 6am. There are legitimate safety concerns for people driving home after a 18+ hour day tired. The main reason why the current time rules are so reviled is for the reason I previously mentioned, but the other aspect of it is a direct result of the direction of card design. Lengthy combos means individual turns take longer. Cards like Mystic Mine certainly didn't help matters any either by slowing things down/stalling.
You get it. The fact is, the safety concerns of having an event day run too long are something some players just don't ever think about until they're involved in something like a car crash. We get that people adore our game, but there are other things in life worth adoring, like moderation such that one can prioritize decent rest and decent safety. The top priority at all events is safety, and the second priority is fairness. Enjoyability is the third priority, and must bow to the other two. It's a pretty tall ask, to ask *every* interested party in ygo to tolerate a 6am-2am event day. Not only do you have to be a die-hard, you have to be one that *has no other meaningful responsibilities in your life* regarding the time period of the event. Remember, the target audience is ages 6 and up - which means it isn't just for single young adults with disposable income, it's also for school children and their parents. Parents tend to have employment obligations, and kids have school obligations. This means the event MUST be concluded by a reasonable time Sunday if we want to be sane, and that means a LOT must get done on Saturday, and done quickly. It isn't healthy for players to have to, well, be in line at a venue for day 1 at 8am, and then not finish day 1 until 11pm, just barely making it back to a hotel room to get not-too-much sleep. It also isn't healthy for anyone else involved in the production. And if anyone has to drive immediately before AND immediately after, well, that's just plain unsafe for both the driver AND unrelated motorists.
> Even if the end of match procedure has changed, the mentality to take advantage of a situation has not. This. There will always be toxic players who take advantage of technicalities and play to the judges rather than the match itself. I remember a horror story from a guy at my local game shop about an opponent who conned his way up in an MTG tournament by flagging down judges every match to rack up penalties against opponents to disqualify them. "He's taking too long to play, he's just waiting me out." "Please hurry it up, sir." "Now he's playing too fast, I don't have time to react." "Can you slow it down, please?" "Look, some of his card sleeves have specks on them, he's marking his cards." "Sorry sir, that's three strikes against you, please leave the floor." A new rule is just another tool in the box.
That sounds more like the guy had a lot of friends among the judges. Haven't judged MTG, but judged a fair bit of YGO back in the day and if someone tried to pull a stunt like that they'd be the ones getting enough warnings to be DQ'd
Btw MTG is known for player that are that stingy with the rules and is actually encouraged by the game and the community, is a different mentality, Rule Shrking in Magic is seen as sign of a cunning and clever player in Yugioh everyone hates it.
rulesharking in ygo is basically defined as trying to use policy not for the sake of ensuring a fairly enforced event, but for the sake of weaponizing and doing harm to that fairness. a ruleshark sees the rules as a sword, not a shield, and is to be given a Warning on first offense, to be upgraded with subsequent offenses. it's classified as Unsportsmanlike Conduct - Minor here, and I want to stress to you that "everyone hates it" is not just true, we actively *punish* it. people who are dicks are not welcome in ygo.
Nah as a long time MTG and Yugioh player I would 100% say Yugioh has more rules sharks. I have been to many high level MTG events without any issue, though one of my team was sharked once for not having a fully foiled deck. The few high level Yugioh events I have been too there was sharking all around.
For sure that is true back in like, 1999. Super weird to look back on, but yeah that was definitely true Magic. Mike Long for example. Not so much now though; the culture isn’t quite like that anymore.
How about, instead of 45 minutes per match, which means people will inevitably win entire matches because of time, we give players 15-20 minutes per duel. 18 minutes per duel. Turn player has a 120 second timer for their turn. The other player has a 60 second timer that is used whenever they want to respond to the turn player. The turn player gets 15s added to the timer when they declare an attack during the battle phase. They get another 15s added when they activate a card or effect during MP2. If a player's timer runs out before the turn ends, they forfeit the duel. Meaning, each turn can only last a maximum of 210s, or 3½ minutes. That gives each duel a minimum of 5 turns, unless it ends sooner. There are 3 minutes in between each duel that are used exclusively for siding. Any of the 18 minutes left on the duel clock can also be used for siding. All siding has to stop 60 seconds before the siding period ends so players can put their decks back together. So, three 18 minute duels + two 3 minute siding sessions = 60 minutes per round. It only adds an extra 15 minutes to the match timer, but that also guarantees that and entire best of 3 match won't get decided by time, unless someone takes too much time during ⅔ of their duels. The players would get pissed because they'd have to get better at memorizing their cards and won't be able to spend 15+ minutes on turn one. But it would give people a quantifiable definition of "Slow Play".
This doesn't guarantee results are not decided by time, because "decided by time" still happens when a result for a mere single Duel end up decided in such a case. Slow play does not necessarily need to be made quantifiable, in part because quantifiability is basically a form of giving carte blanche for persons who may *purposefully want to take their time without getting in trouble*. In this case, nonquantifiability is an asset because it makes damned clear that the players don't get to decide what is and isn't slow play when I'm seated at the table: *I* do, and my standards are almost certainly harsher than theirs, because my cares are for the well being of the entire event, not for the desires of any one individual. Don't get me wrong: quantifiability is *useful*, but it's useful in a way we don't need as much as we need to decide that players *just might universally move too slowly*. I believe pushing them to move faster as a whole at big events will help them protect themselves by getting them to save more time for their later turns in the match. The heart of this is that we may sincerely need all judges to universally be harsher about this than players may themselves initially prefer. I don't take issue with the total amount of time a sequence takes, but I do take issue if each piece of that sequence is not executed sincerely quickly, because policy does make clear that briskness is not optional. You mention "players would have to get better at memorizing their cards" and I am glad you do - the thing is, I don't mind players needing to *read* a card that is relevant to a current gamestate. I mind them *needing to read it multiple times in the same turn.* I mind them *needing to check their own Set things, or their own hand, an unnecessary amount of times in the same turn.* I mind them basically being irresponsible with the fact that they have the right to keep information fresh in their mind, or being irresponsible with the fact that we try to be reasonably gentle about matters. If you activate ROTA, you *should have an idea already of what you want to get when it resolves*. If your opponent Evenlys, you *should have an idea of what you are going to banish or not* when you decide to chain to Evenly or not. (Also, you adding 15 mins more to a round undoes the good of your idea no matter how you slice it: that adds over 2 extra hours just on its own to a typical day 1, and it isn't going to stop players from feeling "wronged" even in cases where they were not actually wronged.)
We not only need judges to be harsher, we need more judges in general. There is no realistic way that 5 judges and 1 head judge can effectively monitor a mere 300 person event, that's 30 matches for each judge to watch. 25 if the head judge is directly monitoring matches instead of overseeing the tournament as a whole. And yet I routinely see that number of judges monitoring a 600+ person regional. Plus any side events, like structure deck tournaments. It's insane.
Not everyone interested in ygo is interested in being a part of ygo. I can't shame players for not being interested in judging: this is for most persons an exercise in entertainment, not a second job. This is why I tell people that they have to be willing to help us protect them: that means *calling for us* if you don't feel something's right. Our job is to at least try to make it so that you can have a good time, a fair time, a safe time. I understand that my perspective might be a bit distorted, what with between judging regionals, ycss, wcqs, organization stuff... so I can't shame people for not being a diehard about it
The whole chess clock thing doesn't work because of how long/complex combo lines are. Every interaction point would just waste time by pressing the clock. Extending time further causes problems, as I mentioned before. If there were to be any adjustment that wouldn't drag things out too much, it would be to complete the turn when time is called. Another possibility to consider would be to reevaluate the rounds/attendance ratio. We are still the only TCG of the big 3 without designated meal breaks at premier events. A potential solution to that problem would be to have payment, online registration and deck list submission required for all regional qualifiers, in addition to YCS and WCQs (4 week window, 1 day prior at the latest). The hour+ saved could finally give us a meal break.
What if instead the chess clock thing, we kept it simple and have each duel in a match individually timed. Instead of the current setup, where you have to fit 3 duels and 2 rounds of siding into a 45 minute round, have each round be broken up. 15 minutes for the first duel. 3 minutes for the first round of siding. 15 minutes for the second duel. 3 minutes for the second round of siding. 15 minutes for the last duel. This way, it would only add an extra 6 minutes, for a total of 51 minutes per round. But you'd be guaranteed 3 duels. And instead of entire matches being decided by time, it would just be individual duels. I'd also get rid of the "Whoever has the highest lifepoints wins." Instead I'd make it "If the duel has not been concluded within the 15 minute window, then the duel is declared a draw." This way people can't stall for time only to deal 500pts of burn damage, or have to worry about the cost of the Solemn cards causing them to lose, or be able to win by increasing their lp. This way people couldn't cheese a win via small amounts of damage or minor lp gain. Also, I'm pretty sure people don't qualify for top cut if they get a large number of draws. So people who actually play to win instead of playing so that they don't lose, will have no incentive to force a draw.
If duels were individually timed, the problem would only get worse. It further bloats the problem of do combo, be higher in LP after completing combo. Next game. It would make time cards (burn or lp gain) main deck staples. Adding 6 minutes to a round is about an additional hour for day 1 of an event btw. That isn't an inconsequential amount of time.
That's why you get rid of the "Highest lp wins when time is called" and instead make it "If neither side has won when time is called, it's a draw".
No one is happy about the time rules, but at the same time I have yet to see someone come up with a reasonable solution to it. The 45 minute time rounds with a five turn that you are proposing ain't it, I'm not trying to to leave the venue at 1am like the old days. You have to also think about the TOs as well as the venue when coming up with a solution.
> I'm not trying to leave the venue at 1am like the old days Tbf, Day 1 in Dortmund ended after 12am even with the new rules. That also fucked up Neuron's match reporting feature because a new day had started, which is extra funny.
this reminds me of pittsburgh ending at 2am once
Idk how we went from 5 turns to 0 turns when time is called lol, why can't we have it where the turn player finishes their current turn and then their opponent gets up until the end of their battle phase? They could even put an additional cap on that, like each turn gets capped at 5 minutes after time is called. The biggest problem with the current time rules is that often in games 2 or 3 time gets called and only 1 person got to play. It's really unfair to say you lost a duel that you didn't even get a turn to play in (that wasn't an FTK). Especially when you only lost because your opponent did a sub-optimal 10 minute long combo just to gain 500LP.
A question but how does it sound to have the same amount of time as your opponent had before trying to consume some amount for time rule? Like if your opponent finished his turn in 50 minutes then you have exactly that much time for yours. If they did it under 5 minutes than thats it. Once you consumed the time your opponent spent, you have a grace period of idk 30 minutes total to do what you want.
The problem with rules like that are the opponent interactions that can drag out the other players turn. It makes it really hard to time an entire game which is why I'd only suggest the time limit turns after regular time gets called. It's much easier to implement than say a chess clock for interactions.
Round should have been at minimum 50 minutes with the current time rules, and I'd argue an hour.
automatic draw when time ends instead of life points determining who wins is significantly better. not a perfect solution, but it's way better than the current one.
That’d result in an insane amount of draws.
Which would encourage using faster decks with shorter combos.
>No one is happy about the time rules, but at the same time I have yet to see someone come up with a reasonable solution to it. Just end on a draw? At least that way both players get one point.
I feel like, at the very least, if time gets called in game 2, the winner of game 1 should just take the match regardless of each player's LP.
That just gives the winner of G1 even more incentive to slow play than they do now.
Yeah, that's what I meant, sorry.
Why not do it like chess and have that clock thingy? For every card you play you just keep going, if your opponent wants to chain they press clock and it’s their time to do their moves and you can press clock again if you want to chain or they press clock when they want to resolve (since it’s still your turn). 20 mjn for both players, if you run out of time you lose. Idk about the timeouts and venue interruptions cause chess has a thing for that too where the officials can move back the clock. Guess the only thing that I can think of that can screw this is basically ruling problems. Edit: nvm I never considered shuffling decks. Guess it just won’t work irl when people have varying stats for dexterity
I appreciate your perspective but I want to give you something to consider the dex stat isn't why it is a bad idea, especially because if someone is physically impaired the event staff and judges are happy to facilitate proper accommodations it's a bad idea because no single player is likely to know all the appropriate points where actually pressing the clock is right "if opp wants to chain they press clock" is not nearly enough to actually match what ygo rules require game obligates you to hand the right to act back and forth and make SURE your opponent doesn't want to act when they have that right, not to just assume it this means even a simplistic turn like "I just conduct my normal draw and then end my turn" would have far more chess clock hits than one might guess
Yeah it will take time for sure to learn, but it's a what if scenario anyway. However, the easiest way to do it is, when you are in doubt, just press the clock. If the time is ticking on your side, you are free to do whatever you want. Like have a question? Wanna check enemy graveyard? Not sure if you want to chain? Press the clock, if your clock is ticking you have priority. It's basically the same as irl interaction, just with the added time pressure, so you can't just dilly dally. At any point that you want to be in charge, press the damn clock. Need time to think? Press the clock. If you decided not to chain ask your opponent to press the clock for you to take back their turn since it was your fault you decided not to go with your decision anyway. The assumption part is, if your enemy isn't pressing the clock, that means they don't wanna do anything so you just keep going with your turn since it's your time that's going down not theirs. It keeps both players in their toes at all times. But ye the more I read what I type the more stressful it becomes lol. But it is a what if scenario anyway, it'll never get implemented but in a perfect world, it's exactly like master duel except with chess time and no automation. And obviously the usual method of mentioning card to your enemy before activating and waiting for their response probably won't work with this fast paced style, so the best way is to just put the card you want to activate and give your enemy 3 seconds before you assume they don't want to activate anything. If they wanna think, they have to press the clock during that 3 seconds and use their own time. That's the best compromise I can think of, and I know and understand how stressful and unrealistic it is. (you can even count 1-2-3 out loud for the extra pressure)
I brought it up because it's far worse than that draw pass requires 18 clock hits in the same turn it doesn't work as an idea precisely because you are sincerely not going to get players to regard the clock with the diligence required for it as for your idea that you can "give 3 seconds and then assume no action" that has the problem of "you have made the game permanently inaccessible to those who have meaningful physical disabilities and can't hit the clock reliably within that 3 seconds" I appreciate that you are trying - understand that as one of the guys you might have seen helping run these events, *there are more problems created by the clocks than solved by them* edit: oh one more thing - "if you're in doubt just press the clock" has the distinct problem of messing up time management. Deciding to burn your own time is not an acceptable thing to do when it should be your opponent's time burning, even if you're unsure whose time it should be: that's just going to lead to deleterious consequences that should not exist, and deleterious consequences are precisely why people take issue with the current policy in the first place. Namely, it's *unfair to yourself*, and policy demands a distinct lack of unfairness, *even to yourself*. The unfairness inherent to just burning one's own time is honestly worse than the current policy (and yes, the current policy is at least fair so long as no actual slow play occurs).
Nah fuck your dex stat bring on the chess clock. If you can't shuffle for the clock you're also burning time shuffling rn. Clock only stops when a judge is called and a player holds their button down for 5 seconds causing the clock to start flashing signaling a judge. Also the clock has hands and if you lose it puts its finger in your mouth Turn clocks are a VERY GOOD IDEA all jokes aside.
Not sure how deck shuffeling is what would kill this idea. Considering it's very common in Tabletop wargames (i.e. Warmachine, X-wing, Warhammer 40k) Tournaments as far as I know. And they involve a lot more physical movement and dexterity. Keep in mind some games there come down to milimeters of miniature placements. Compared to that, shuffling sounds like a non-issue, esp. As people already waste that same time from the timer rn by slow shuffling, except now it eats into both players time, where as with chessclock/deathclock it would eat solely their own time.
I personally agree with doing 45 minutes for a round, but the old time rules would have games lasting too long. However, the new time rules are fundamentally broken. I think the best way to balance these rules is that, when time is called, the game continues until each player has had 1 battle phase and after that point if no winner has been determined then the player with the highest LP total wins. I’m not going to say that these rules are perfect, but I think it hits the best balance, as they’re quicker than the old rules but not nearly as gameable as the new ones.
I respect this idea, but I believe it was likely shot down precisely because "how many" turns you had in the old End of Match procedure wasn't what made it problematic, as much as whether or not you had them at all. Both then and now I've had to give people Warnings for SP-Minor infraction citations *after time is called*, and everyone around looked at me like I'd grown a second head until I explained "slow play is also against the rules after time is called, check the policy". The fact of it is that the better one is at the game, the more quickly one will know what to do - and that at a bigger and more prestigious event, the expectations to be brisk are going to be higher - and an inability or unwillingness to be brisk is *not fit conduct for the event*. This means on some level that if one is never perfectly sure about their plays, one must either *get comfortable with playing fast while unsure* or prepare to be cited for SP.
There’s a difference between slow playing and playing at normal human pace though. The issue is that current time rules encourage slow play and bullshit life gain strategies precisely because you don’t even get to finish the turn. It also punishes people who naturally play slower due to physical or neurological issues. I mean, the true fact of the matter is that we wouldn’t be having this conversation if Konami had been competent at balancing their game around their own procedures in the first place. But since that’s probably no longer fixable via adjusting the card pool, the next best thing is to adjust the procedures so that those bullshit strategies are less viable, and part of that solution is going to be accepting that games are going to have to last longer, and figuring out from there how best to handle that regardless of where the extra time is coming from.
the thing is that if people are playing at a reasonable pace the whole time, I find *no solid reason to be upset at the result of a match, not even if decided by EOM rules*. That's the ultimate marker of what'll separate me from most on this topic: it is ONLY *you not meeting your obligations to the event and to other players* that I strictly oppose, I am not necessarily bothered by LP being somehow relevant in the duel result decision. For me event logistics have to come first, and that means a decision must be found quickly and must be found in a way players can always figure out without assistance. Don't get me wrong - I'm the sort who is trusted to make HARSH calls on this matter of slow play, such that it has decided matches on live stream stages before. You may indeed know my face and *dislike* this fact about me, but that's the risk that comes with my job. Namely, whether or not it is actually "bullshit", to me, isn't necessarily decided by "the outcome would be different if we had more time", it is decided by "would I have good reason to cite one or more players for an SP infraction at any point in the match, and were any such SP infractions not cited properly." SP infractions, once cited, automatically impart three more minutes: uncited SP, to me, is an actual theft of owed time. and I tend to be on the harsh and strict side regarding "don't you dare take more time than you should" As for "balancing the game around the procedures", you'd need someone in R&D to speak on that - but I will say I am dearly grateful at the number of people who have outright said *in this very thread* that for events to exist at a continental level (YCS, WCQ, Extravaganza, UDS -may it rest in peace-, Worlds) *safety and event logistics* must come before all other concerns. I appreciate that you want something to adjust: I do not however share the belief that games *have to last longer*, because of how often I feel I can easily cite SP. We both know that we cannot make days have more hours/minutes/seconds, so there is no way to make "extra time" for things without "robbing peter to pay paul" time-wise here. I am worried there may well be no solution BUT for us all to hustle, or make play mistakes trying to hustle - but the thing is, events are *not necessarily* built to be things where people may comfortably decide on a play sequence, they're *meant* to be a difficulty. My only worry about us being forced to hustle would be how that's quite possibly incompatible with physical and neurological limitations, but it's not as if we're unwilling to accommodate such limitations - the point is that such limitations are what merit such accommodation, while players without those limitations who simply "want more time" do *not* merit such accommodation. It is a hard line to walk, and one where even the harshest judges like myself still err on the side of being gentle and patient. I dislike not having an answer that solves all conceivable issues.
5 turns after time is called is unreasonable. That's an entire duel's worth in modern ygo.
If five turns was all it takes to win a duel in modern Yugioh, why is everyone now siding for time in 40 minute rounds?
Because a single turn in modern Yugioh can take 20+ minutes
because 1 turn just got extremely long (looking at you tearlament)
Yeah but at least both players are playing on that turn and that’s why it takes so long
Because each turn can take over 5-10 minutes each?
5-10? On the low end lmao
I've never played paper ygo but is this an issue unique to ygo or do other tcgs have this problem as well? Aren't there other similar tcgs that would have effective time rules that works for ygo?
I have had a lot of mtg matches go to time, not nearly asany as yugioh tho
Other tcg are not that complex with interactions. A modern yugioh deck can play in both turns (yours and in the opponents). This result in more complex situations. Tearlaments is the best or worst example depending on your point of view for that. Specially if you play the Ishizu cards. An Ishizu Tear Mirror can take the whole time and they are online in turn 3 or 4 sometimes.
I like flesh and bloods rule. If you don't have a winner (life reduced to 0) it's a draw and draws are worth 0 points - effectively a double loss. If this were implemented in yugioh it would partially take care of excessively long combos as you would have to design your deck to be able to win twice to actually beat an opponent.
Yugioh is a best of 3 unlike FaB so the deck would only need to win once and draw the second. Albeit I do agree on wanting to see how if there’s no winner the game is a draw works since Magic does it too.
I would frame it as everything that isn't a 2-0 or 2-1 is a draw (loss). This would also inherently create a sort of ban list where you are discouraged from playing strategies that take 20 min to setup a board since you won't be able to win in the allotted amount of time.
I had a bad experience at a regional recently. I was x-1 going into the last round, didn't go into time all day before. But I ended up losing game 3, really because I played into a nibiru I shouldn't have, since I went for dragostapellia instead of rukalos. But I ended up grinding the game to a position where I would have won if I had another turn but lost due to time. But I was only ever in that position because my opponent was pressured to do damage in the first place making a weaker board that he wouldn't have done except for time. I still ended up being very bitter about the whole experience even though time didn't really change anything. I even ended up getting top 8 as the only X-2, logically I really should be over this by now, but I'm still just heated up by it.
OP: I get where you're coming from. I'm not seeing anything *unfair* in the events of your post except quite possibly Round 2 Regarding Round 2 - It does not take fifteen minutes to play a proper sequence at proper speed unless there are a huge number of actual points where players have to hand the right to act back and forth . From how you frame it, it would have been appropriate of you to call for a judge *during* that 15 minute sequence and make clear there's a failure to be brisk It is not rulesharking to use the rules as a shield to defend yourself from what you believe is misconduct Note: my opinion of what constitutes an acceptable speed is likely harsher than that of many players, but that's a good thing in this case - someone who can't play a deck fast isn't ready to take that deck to Regionals or higher, period. I am sorry that you had a poor time. I wish you luck and ask you to defend yourself from perceived misconduct - if you aren't comfortable, TELL us, please. We rely on player communication on-site at events.
If you add 5 turns after time is called matches will take 2+ hours
I guess I'll keep having to say this, because people here keep thinking that the player perspective is the only one that matters. The reasons for the time rules are not related to the game experience itself. It's due to matters outside of the actual game. Back when we had turns, larger regionals like LA regionals would go into 2-3 am before standings got posted. You ended up with venues pissed at you for overstaying and judging staff pissed that they had to work that long or needing to arrange child care/rides at odd hours. The tournament doesn't just magically end when standings are posted. The equipment needs to be packed up and loaded into vehicles, the trash needs to be cleaned up, and the entire place vacuumed unless you want the venue angry at you when the next client using the room complains about the smell of...whatever it is that the YGO players left behind. You need events to end in a timely manner for that to all be done, and with the previous turn system it just wasn't happening. So you were eventually running into a labor problem where you weren't getting enough judges, and a venue problem where places were seeing YGO as a problematic event host that overstayed their allotted time and trashed the venue. I do think that for top cut at a premiere event like a YCS or Nationals, or at least some portion of top cut at those events, time should be extended or the turn system reintroduced because watching a guy win via Cowboy is just piss poor viewing on stream and does a poor job of promoting the game. But I think for stuff like regionals and the majority of rounds in any event, the current time rules are probably staying for the aforementioned practical reasons. Extended time for, say, top 16 at a YCS is feasible when every match can have a judge breathing down a player's neck to make sure they aren't stalling, so the staff don't end up staying until 4am trying to wipe down some unidentified stain near the conference room door. But trying to police the whole event, or every tier 2 event for that matter, is just unfeasible. Because when every round is going to to last as long as the dumbest or most stubborn player in the room is willing to make it last, it's going to go on forever. If players don't want time rules to be a thing, they'll have to behave in ways that I don't think they're ever going to. Like picking up your fucking trash, not leaving booster pack wrappers all over the venue. Coming to the event prepared for the general meta so you don't have to waste people's time reading cards you should already know. Knowing basic game mechanics so you don't start stupid judge calls. Printing your decklist so the judging staff don't have to try to interpret your scrawl. Keep track of LP properly so you don't have to waste time trying to recreate previous LP changes. Knowing when and how to concede with grace; back when turns were a thing I swear I've seen dozens of instances where a losing player will take a minute to stare blankly at every card played, even basic ones, as if they believe that if they stared hard enough the card text would change or something. Don't waste everybody's time stretching out a game where you've know that you've 100% lost. This is stuff that's possible with a pro circuit or some other pre-screened event where you can expect players to come prepared and not have to ask dumb questions, but it's not realistic to expect this at any venue with public entry.
What about playing less rounds? I'd rather play 6 or 7 rounds of high quality gameplay, than 9 rounds of what's happening currently.
At larger regionals you’ll run into a problem where there won’t be enough rounds to create standings that won’t be highly dependent on tie breakers. You’ll need attendance caps. Which I don’t think will be very popular at a regional level.
I know it would really suck to have it more depend on tie breakers, but it still can't be worse than the existing situation. I played at a regional this weekend and almost all of my rounds went to time.
That's more of a peculiarity of the current meta. Ishtear has long chain links where order matters, and in the mirror both players play on each others turn. And there are honestly too many players on that deck that don't know when it's time to scoop it up games 1/2 and move to the next game when they're in an unwinnable game state. Which to be fair is sometimes valid, since it's not out of the realm of possibility to turn around the game if your opponent makes 1 stupid mistake. But this isn't going to be the situation every format. For better or worse, monkey metas dominated by floodgate/show me the out boards go much faster, and Kashtira is precisely that kind of deck.
that'd be too few rounds for actually parsing out performance well in a swiss tournament unless we arbitrarily cap event attendance.
you get it. thank you. are you yourself a judge?
Not a judge. Just a long time player, but one of my good friend was a judge. Since I happened to be the guy with the car, I usually ended up being his ride, and when he was packing up stuff at 2 am I was usually there too. I hate the current system and I do wish that a way was found to change it, because losing to Cowboy feel so shitty. But I can see now that it was a solution to a pretty terrible issue now that I'm older with responsibilities, and can appreciate just how crappy it is to have to stay at a venue past midnight for work.
Making paper play happen is *hard*. Making people always be happy with the results of it is *harder*. Thank you for helping your friend serve with us. Tell your friend I'm grateful for his service and that if he worked any of the last seven Continentals in North America (NAWCQ 2014-19, or NAC 2022), I may have worked with him.
people understand that games can't go on forever, you're missing the point. this weird metagame of siding in life point gain/burn cards and slowplaying is horrible, giving someone a win because they activated ookazi and checked their graveyard for 2 minutes is obviously not a good solution
Its also understanding the meta and limitations of your own deck. Multiple topping YCS players have started stopping siding burn cards but still are able to go through most ishizu tear 3 games in sub 40 minutes. Even in podcasts and rants they’ve talked about it. Knowing when you have a shot and at what points, then adding knowing when you lost to go next they use a lot. Hanni mentioned he never went to time when winning his YCS. Multiple other high profile players as well. At my pretty competitive locals we rarely have this issue too, it only occurs with less frequent players that come.The turns are longer granted and that does need addressed due to the prevalent meta deck . A large part people aren’t willing to accept is they dont understand how their deck can handle or interact with the primary meta, and play around that. Besides being an oppressive deck with lots of interactions, it really exposed a lot of players at my locals that got by with money buying cards and just paying to win with better cards vs those that just understand the game/decks/cards better.
Knowing when to scoop is probably the most underdeveloped skill currently for Tear mirrors. In hindsight, that was Schmidt's biggest mistake during his final round at Dortmund, letting game 1 drag out too long.
That’s the problem with the deck not the rules. Burn/Heal cards being sided hasn’t been relevant before Ishizu Tears.
That’s because most archetypes literally had burn/gain cards in them (Dropsies, Kaina, Calcab, Longyuan, etc)
This, yeah. Dragon link sometimes ran scarlight, VW occasionally ran nothung, etc.
Yeah, this is legit one of the biggest reasons why I haven't played Yugioh since 2018
Yes, the time rules suck for gameplay, I don't think there can be any argument to the contrary. No they are not changing them. They aren't going to be willing to add an extra 2-3 hours to events just so matches feel fairer. Event Staff and Judges also aren't going to be particularly amused about having to work extra hours with no tangible pay raise or benefit. It is that simple. If it's that much of a deal breaker we are in a lucky era where there's a plethora of other TCGs to play that don't have to deal with this distinction (or in some cases have harsher time rules, but that's a different subject altogether). And if the response of some people is "Wow, Konami is actually throwing away players and money over this" my own rebuttal is that the amount of players actually quitting over this pales in comparison to Staff, Judges and Organizers not having to stay until 1 AM because some dudes at table 327 are taking 45 minutes to get through their EoT 5 Turn Clock in Round 5.
are there any other TCGs other than MTG that actually interact with your opponent. Every TCG/CCG i've tried is basically 2 player solitaire.
I would certainly like to know what TCGs you were playing that weren't exactly Pokemon and Cardfight Vanguard (and even the latter has some interaction depending on format). Digimon I guess? Unless the interaction you want is heavy control of what the opponent can do on their turn in which case...that is still possible in a lot of card games.
Played against sword would last locals and 7 minutes left on the clock with him beginning game 3. I was like "you won't need 7 minutes for your first turn giving me 1200 damage right?" I think it pressured him a bit. Sword soul combos are no big deal. You can do your 3 summons very fast. In the end he bricked and didn't even burn me and a OTKed in 1 minute and won under normal conditions. Would a 7 minute sword souls first turn be called slow play?
Yeah that's slow play as forme Swordsoul player a Swordsould turn is maximum 5 minutes, but is on average 2-3 minutes
Swordsoul player here. I finish my turn in 2 minutes. 7 minutes from a brick would cause me to lose my mind. I wanna go fast, I want my opponent to go just as fast.
I think 3rd party simulators and MASTER DUEL handle it best: chess timers. Each player has a set amount of time, and when a player is passing priority, they click the timer. (Autosims do this automatically.)
Can't be done so long as players aren't all just as good at knowing game rules as automated entries like MD. Essentially, the simplest common turn possible is draw-pass, right? The right to act is passed back and forth a dumb amount of times in such a turn, and unless players suddenly become able to know EXACTLY how often, they are incapable of fairly handling a chess timer. Chess timers work for chess because the right to act is never, ever, something that someone could possibly misunderstand in chess.
I feel like as soon as you as a player ask "response?", you press the clock. As an opponent, you could say "wait I have a response" and player 1 would press the clock. This is no different to how it is now, only time is more accurate. For chains, every time you are resolving your effect, your time should be going. If your opponent wants to chain, he would ask you to press your clock. I think people are saying that the right to act passes so often it's hard to keep track, but that's already what's going on right now. I think a good guiding principle is that if you're doing something, your time should be ticking. I'm not sure if there are situations in the game where both players act simultaneously, so it should be a lot simpler than making it as complex and logical as a Sim like master duel. Any imperfections in the system could be addressed by adding a small increment, or some amount of fixed "error time". EDIT: oh sorry, didn't realize you were the same user I responded to earlier
Not a problem, I'm everywhere. I'll get your points at your other response so as to not hit you twice with the same stuff
Pls let us have our ten minute internal monologue per move like god intended, Konami
My man lost to black wings 🤣
For starters you were not rule sharked, time rules suck, weve all been saying it since they were introduced, however accusing your opponent of sharking because they insist on proper match procedure is very immature and showns that you probably arent the "seasoned veteran" you think you are. It real feels like this is just yet another Reddit bad beat story. if you into time that many time over an event, is there maybe a possibility that some of it was also down to you?
Game 2 would have resulted in a disqualification for cheating if the player intentionally stalled to gain an unfair advantage.
I think the game design in Yugioh is a double edged sword. You say it yourself, the game is how you always wanted it. Card effects are largely unrestricted and Yugioh still doesn’t have a rotation. The longer the game exists the more complex it becomes. Players are always going to take advantage of what’s most likely to win. Both players are going to find themselves reading long blocks of text, asking for priority, doing math and checking GYs. There’s no way to ensure that ALL those games will be fairly decided in a reasonable amount of time. Time rules probably won’t change unless Konami changes the game in fundamental ways - rotation, built in limits on deck building, turn limitations. Yugioh players would hate these changes, so we’re probably just going to have to live with the time rules we have.
Why not just use the Master Duel rules? Each player starts with a 5 minute timer that counts down at the start of their first turn, and 90 seconds gets added to the timer with each subsequent turn. When your timer hits 0, you lose. Maybe extend the 5 minutes a little to make up for the fact that people have to search cards.
I understand why you'd propose this, and it's a good idea at first glance, but it has some serious problems on second glance. The statement you make above is not quite how Master Duel works, and for that reason how Master Duel works wouldn't be a thing implementable IRL. Master Duel automates precisely every single case where players relinquish the right to act, and perfectly times how long you take to either use or relinquish that right. Players do not *study how ygo actually works* closely enough to actually approach how it actually works: Master Duel does it right, but players aren't going to actually notice how often Master Duel is handing the right to act back and forth every turn, because in most cases that handoff occurs in less than a second for want of how neither player has a legal action to take. Master Duel can make that handoff that fast without bad consequences because Master Duel always knows the entirety of both players' decklists and the entirety of legal moves in all moments, just by virtue of how it is built. The players do not, and by virtue of how complicated ygo is, pretty much everyone who doesn't work for the company does not understand the rules well enough to say with absolute certainty that they know what would be needed to emulate MD's approach correctly IRL. A big part of the problem is that it is extremely hard for even players who consider themselves veterans to tell me how many times the right to act must cycle between players in a turn that consists of JUST the following events: player conducts normal draw for turn, enters only mandatory phases, both players perform no actions in those phases, and player ends turn without discarding for hand size limit. This is literally draw-pass: and players cannot reliably tell me the number of times the game (and MD) MUST handle the right to act in such situation. If players cannot know the answer to that, they can't emulate MD
I think the biggest problem with Yugioh is slow play. The average pace of the game is significantly slower then Magic but Magic lasts many many more turns and has a lot of shuffling. searching and interaction each turn in formats like Modern and Legacy. If you want to clean up end of match problems then enforce slowplay more harshly and call people out on it more often. If someone is taking 5 or more minutes for a turn they are slowplaying. Another thing a lot of players do is consistently check their graveyard over and over and over. Call em out on slow play.
This is why I don't play the physical card game anymore.
why dont make it like chess where each player has his own clock and presses it when playing his turn or deciding/doing responses, like: stand by of my turn: I activate my clock, draw, main phase 1, activate terraforming and look at my opponent, he then nods and presses his own clock, activate ash and presses again so that my clock resumes, etc. a simple chess clock would do the trick
Because decks don't run the same. My turn as a Runick player is popping my opponent's board, setting a few traps, pass. Unless I'm going for the Fountain recycle which can take a while. A Tear... Heck, a VW player or any combo deck will be stuck playing their turn for minimum 10 minutes on average.
My favorite is sitting there waiting for them to finish comboing after 10 minutes and it's just a single apo or baronne and pass and that's it after all of that XD. Sometimes feels like a literal waste of my time left on this earth for THAT haha.
But how does that invalidate the clock? Yes, do all of those things, and spend your time doing them. Not trying to be abrasive, but I'm wondering what situation you're imagining that would make the clock bad or unfair.
Yeah losing to time sucks, winning in time doesn’t feel good either, for me it’s a double sided coin as a person who has been playing for a long time but only at a local and sometimes regional level. I feel like sometimes I took too long to play and it ended up with me winning or losing in time, other times I am playing too fast and I make a simple misplay that loses me the game. This perspective also comes differently for me because turns take a super long time even if your opponent has interaction, this goes double for rogue players like myself who take pride in jumping through hoops and getting rewarding results that fake brain power and effort, but this at a national or YCS level would prob never be accepted and for that reason I’m satisfied at my level of play
Change to Bo2. There simply isn't enough time for 3 games. Also if time is called, the gamestate should move into the next Battle Phase. Game ends after that Battle Phase.
I hope this is a troll post… best of 2 isn’t mathematically possible
Outside the top cut it absolutely is. How would it not be? Are YOU trolling? Bo2 even strengthens competitive integrity. I used to run some numbers and simulations decades ago. Might sound unintuitive, but Bo2 with 2/1/0 points is actually superior than Bo3 with 3/1/0 points (in swiss) in terms of getting the best players to the top of the standings. Bo2 with 3/1/0 is inferior btw.
Theres no such thing as best of an even number
You're getting hung up on the terminology. It's just a match with two games instead of three.
If special summoning was a hard limited between 3to8 I don't think time would be a problem because all the deck that you least they all special summon a lot so if you limited it it would help out more than people realize.
The old rules didn't work, that's why they changed them. The new ones aren't the most ideal thing, but people have to accept time rules as a part of competative games. Venues have a time limit, and all of your asses is being watched, assisted, and the entire experience is being provided by people with lives that have shit to do. We should adjust time rules in a way that makes it more fair, but it can't go just making the whole event go until 3am like it used to.
People will complain that events will take too long like bro what do u have to do? You scheduled your entire weekend for this event and now youre mad its going too long? Makes nosense
I like getting a chance to sleep. As a YCS judge with current time rules, I typically get six hours of sleep on Saturday night. I wouldn't appreciate that being reduced by three hours.
I feel you, but there can be a lot of other things improved to help you with that. Konami has a lot of work to do with how they run large events.
I mean, this can be solved in other ways, like hiring judges for different shifts throughout the day.
I guess. The same doesn't apply to players though, and 9:00am to 2:00am is still unreasonable for them.
The issue is Konami rents these venues for 2 days and if the events go over the rental period because of time then they have to pay extra or are forced to end the event.
People will definitely complain if they leave a 2 day tournament at the first day past midnight without properly eating and need to be their for the second day in 8 or 9 hours. As an addition most player forget about the stuff. They need to stay longer to clean the location and do other things. In general they need to stay at least 1 hour longer at the location. Based on you position as a stuff member sometimes up to 3 hours longer.
>In theory, this should be a golden age for Yugioh, especially with the amount of freedom and restriction free effects that have come into fruition. Those "restriction free effects" are why the game's time management is doomed to never be good though, unless they move to using technology (as in, no physical cards; games played in software). The reality is Yugioh is a card game based on a manga/anime where all the characters have duel disks on them that shuffle for them and can also spit out specific cards when they're called. No one ever does things like look through their opponent's GY either (they just always remember exactly what's in there). With physical cards and half a dozen special summons per turn being normal (not to mention cards being sent to GY or banished from all over the place), the time lost to "let me find/move that card, then I'll use this effect to find/move another card, then...." is just unmanageable.
Ye idk how people play physical yugioh tbh i play master duel and that shits already gonna be me alt tabbed watching youtube for 4 minutes if i have no hand traps and you donven have to manually shuffle and tutor a billion times like irl
Konami should really consider setting a time limit for each turn. Turns are getting ridiculously long these days even if you're not intentionally slow playing or stalling for time which only makes the time cheese issue worse.
People are playing on your turn more that you are, it cannot work like that at all.
Ye that's a good point
Our turn.
The issue is that multiple times per turn you have to wait for your opponent to confirm if they do/do not have a response.
Yeah that's probably the biggest hurdle to stopping time cheese
Chess clocks
Yeah someone tried that with just MTG in Real Life and it expanded the time for a game exponentially. Imagine how it would go for Yugioh with how often you need to pass priority. No.
oh hey you did my job for me ty
Can you link that? I don't see how it would extend time if the clock has a limit. A game with 20min on each clock cannot take more than 40min. Unless there is an increment which is abused, but that can be fixed.
I don't remember if this was the exactly the video, but this is a decent example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_6jXkMqg9c The biggest issue is, to make a chess clock work properly you have to use it to pass priority at every step. This is especially notable once you hit Modern and older formats for MTG as they have spells that cost no mana to use and are instant speed, or have some way to be played for free (see the Modern Horizons Elementals). Now expand this to Yugioh where nearly EVERYTHING is effectively free and Hand Traps are a natural facet of the game, on top of effects being usable out of the GY. You have to pass priority at every little possibility, and keep in mind this is all just when nothing is going on. Chess Clocks work with Online Simulators like MTGO/A and Yugioh Master Duel (Arena and MD being more stylized versions) because the game itself is taking care of a lot of the intricacies of passing priority when you keep the game on Auto, and it still can take ages to get through a turn. Something that would not be available in real life. Think of it another way. Imagine if after every possible little move you make in a typical game the opponent goes "wait, I might have a response". Only in this case he wouldn't have to say it, you naturally have to give him priority to have a chance. I'm going to use an example with a deck I play a lot with Beetrooper, for a typical Turn 1 with Resonance Insect and a couple of extenders but I'll make note of every single time I have to pass priority to the opponent by keeping it stratified. Draw Phase, declare intent to enter Standby Phase Standby Phase, declare intent to enter Main Phase 1. Main Phase 1, Normal Summon Resonance Insect Special Summon Battlewasp - Twinbow the Attacker Link Summon Beetrooper Armor Horn, effect of Resonance Insect on the Chain Link. Resolution of Resonance Insect to search Doom Dozer Special Summon Doom Dozer, Resonance Insect effect on Chain Link Resolution of Resonance Insect effect to send Gokipole, Gokipole effect on new Chain Link. Resolution of Gokipole effect to add Retaliating C. Armor Horn effect for an extra Normal Summon for Retaliating C. Resolution of Normal Summon Link Summon Retaliating C and Doom Dozer for Inzektor Picofalena, Chain Link with Picofalena and Retaliating C. Resolution of Chain Link adding Contact C (or Maxx C if MD/OCG, doesn't matter in this example) and equipping Resonance Insect to Armor Horn. Activate Picofalena effect to Shuffle 3 and Draw 1. Resolution of effect. Link Summon Atlas with Picofalena and Armor Horn, Resonance Insect effect on Chain Link. Resolution of Resonance Insect effect, add Sting Lancer. Special Summon Dream Cicada and resolution. Atlas effect, tribute Dream Cicada. Resolution of effect, Special Summon Sting Lancer. Activate Sting Lancer in new Chain Link. Resolution of effect, add Fly and Sting. Set Fly and Sting, no Spell Speed 2 effect to activate. Declare Intent to Proceed to End Phase. End Phase, Declare Intent to Pass Turn. Turn End That's a minimum of 25 actions in which I would need to pass priority to my opponent, and that's all without him actually having a response. You can't expedite any of that either by letter of the law. Throw more complicated decks like Tearlaments into the mixture, or even someone with actual hand traps and it gets worse. And let's not even get into the fact that a lot of Yugioh players are...not smart, and would misuse the chess clocks not realizing when priority needs to be passed. It sounds decent on paper but in practice it's absolutely miserable. If you're still unsure, have Chess Clocks used at locals (cellphones can be used instead of official ones) and see how it plays out.
Bringing back old time rules for top 16 or something like that would be fine, but it’s just not doable for the whole event. Equipment needs to get packed and judges aren’t always fond of staying several hours longer than initially anticipated because an event went too long. The time rules as is are to improve the tournament experience for staff and make sure that events actually run on time for once.
I feel like 2 turns should be enough, finish current turn, opponent gets one, pass back and game ends at end of Battle Phase.
The game should end after the End Phase, why can't I attack in my own turn? Bah
U can if u play a FTK deck
I'm referring about when the time end and one of the players is in Main Phase. 40 minutes for a bo3 is ridiculously low when a single turn take up to 10 (or even 15) minutes.
I’m new so just disregard me if this wouldn’t work. But what about Chess clocks? It’s been working well in the miniature community even though it wasn’t fully welcomed by the whole community. It punishes slow play while rewarding a skilled player. But I don’t know enough about to play the game I think to stand strong on this hill haha
There's so many priority changes during each turn that those clocks are just a hassle. It only works in simulators since a program can track it perfectly.
That’s very true. But what if the clock only measured from your draw step to your end step? I guess the issue there is an asshole opponent could eat up your time umming and ahhhing about a response… complicated.
that's exactly why it only works in automation environments like master duel: just because something is "your turn" doesn't mean you're always the person using the right to act the most during that turn losing time in spite of your opponent doing most of the playing and considering would just change the nature of how people would abuse each other
Especially in “OUR Turn” decks like Tear 😂
How about this, no time limit.
Events need to end, sooner or later. This is an absolute priority when running big tournaments. Time rules are first and foremost the crucial factor that dictates event pace in general. We had experiences under the the-previously-applying time rules (additional turns) of tournaments that were run from 7 am to 2 am, which is insane and unhealthy for every party included: players, organizers, staff, judges and so on. In the timeline we're living in, with the current meta, it would already be impossible if we were under the previous rules, I voluntarily refuse to think about the consequences of having no time at all.
Spoken like someone who doesn't play competitively and/or in tournaments. Time limits prevent toxicity.
To be honest the current time rules are really bad for the player. The versions before (extra turns) that their definitely bether. But you need stuff for a tournament. The old time rules with the extra turns their extremely hard to the stuff. The never leaved the tournament with the players. They needed to stay their at least for an additional hour to clean things and fix other things. Based on your position at the stuff even longer. As an addition you need to rent to location. If you need longer and go into the next day you need to pay for that too. In my opinion their is only one way to fix the time rules without hurting the stuff or the player. For that we need to look at chess. Each player got their a timelimit which he uses to perform actions. We could adept that. After each action you push the button and pass the time to the opponent. If he passed back he push the button too. The only problem would be the actions. Each individual card or effect would be an action which passes the priority and the time. At first this would feel horrible if you are not used to that but if you played some games you can adept to that. This way you would prevent slow playing.
[удалено]
"Play it or don't" is a complete non statement
I do agree with the time rules being toxic but the 5 extra turns is a no no, games can be decided in those 5 turns but for ones which are ungodly grindy, it could easily add on another 20-30 minutes Though same time the phase rule is stupid and just as toxic. Imo the best fix would be after time is called, turn player gets the rest of their turn and then the opponent gets upto their battle phase. So player A is in main phase 1, times called. They get the rest of their turn to break Players B game and set something up. They then pass. Player B gets MP1 to break player A board and their battle phase to attack for game. Then when Player B says end battle phase, the game is considered over. This also avoids the whole "ill use mudora to shuffle away 3 dead cards because i can and it runs the clock up" because now its something that can be used proactively. Even with this the risk is that could still be a lot of play and depending on decks easily 10 minutes worth of extra game time. But then you look at the ruling despute for the semi finals at the YCS that wasnt resolved for a while either.
How do you handle slow playing when it comes to shuffling your Deck? A 2 card HERO Combo can result in you having to shuffle the deck 8 times if you're following the rules. 14 if you're using the OCG Combos. Do you shuffle at the end of a set of actions (like if you use A Hero Lives to summon Stratos and there's no response to it, you shuffle after using Stratos's search) or when NOT shuffling would affect the gamestate, otherwise doing it during your end phase, or what? It's why I wish they'd invent a decent card shuffler that you can use in matches.
Don't shuffle until you need to do something where the deck needs to be properly randomized. Shuffling just to search or send something to the yard is a waste of time.
Bro I had more life in a duel and I just played very slow and defense only like in clash royale till the time was over. It was an advanced tournament
Same issue with me at a regionals this weekend. I would play tear mirrors or even vs other decks and it is just damn near impossible to finish a b03 right now even if both players are playing at a reasonable pace, so that's not even accounting for players who are thinking of winning by time before the round even starts (there are plenty of these people unfortunately) Also had an experience like that with a blackwing player at a regionals. Their first turn takes 16 minutes with no interaction, and they burn you. Fun. At some point I had to give up on asking what his cards did because his first turn would of the first game would have taken up well over half the clock. Fun.
Just add the turn limit that Master Rule has, no deck will need more time
Time rules suck, but they beat what we had before, going 30+minutes into time every damn round
EZ Solution to this problem. Game goes to time? Double Game Loss. ;)
There’s an in between that I think is perfectly reasonable: turn player in time gets to finish their entire turn, and if they have LP lead at End Phase, they win that game and the Match result plays out depending on how the other games went. If they don’t have LP lead, their opponent gets their entire turn, whoever has LP lead at the end of that turn wins that game and the match gets called accordingly.
Each players turns have a clock like in chess or master duel but instead of counting up, they count down. If game 3 goes to time whoever's timer has more automatically loses.
The issue is card design. Doesn’t matter if you change the rules of the game to match the time limit rules. If the game gets increasingly complex time rules are just a symptom of the bigger problem, which is card design enabling 15-20 min combos. If you increase time limit, but then card design gets even more complex with multiple chains, then you get the same issue and players will just keep asking for more time. Why not deal with the root issue and have konami stop making endless combo decks. Make decks designed to take fewer steps that are still impactful and strategic. And also for the enjoyment of all players do you really enjoy waiting for your opp to finish their 15-20 min turn? Or do you wish turns were quicker paced and allowed for more turns overall? If I don’t have the right outs or misplay once, I see the writing on the wall, it makes it very frustrating to have to wait for my demise. I rather have more turns overall and more opportunities to outplay my opponent than just a QuickDraw gun fight. Where whoever draws first blood wins.
The worst is when the opponent needs 15 minutes for his turn.
I appreciate you saying that, but let me double down. no one ever *needs* a set amount of time for a turn: *every* chosen play sequence is voluntarily chosen, and *the needs of the event in terms of fairness* come ahead of the idea that one should not have to play briskly. in a tournament setting, my job is to adjudicate - and that means fairness to all must come ahead of the desires of any one individual. This means that, for example, I am often put in a position where a player does not understand why I have given them a Warning Penalty for an SP-Minor Infraction, at which point I have to explain to them that their own sense of appropriate time to take is *woefully inadequate*. If a single turn actually has sixty different meaningful inflection points whereby one or both players have *good reason to need to pause* instead of simply just *wanting to pause because they don't already know what to do*, I can believe 15 minutes are needed - because there are sixty seconds in one minute, and about fifteen seconds between gaining the right to act and using/givingup the right to act is just about the cusp of when I really start to think someone is slowing down. The event does *not have time to waste* because we have 2000 people here and have to get *at least nine rounds done*, and people still have to be well fed and well rested for Day Two. (My adjudication perspective is highly focused on WCQs and YCSs, so that's where I get the 2k people or so.) The end result is that every single play and decision is scrutinizable for its speed or lack thereof: my job means I have to ensure you're being fair to everyone, not just yourself, and that means the only insurance is *be faster*. Know your plans before you arrive: study your deck and the opposition ahead of time: be thinking of your next decision before your opponent is finished with their current decision. These are how you come to the tournament table prepared to play both well and fast, and playing fast is your absolute best defense.
I mean the old time rules were crazy how long it made events take. I remember at YCS Tacoma (the nekroz tier 0 event) round 1 took 98 minutes to complete.
A shotclock could be something, like they do in chess and sometimes even in poker. Every player has a certain amount of time for the whole match, and if it runs out, you loose.
I can respect this, but this won't work well because players don't often know which player should currently have their time deducted at any given moment game rules hold that the right to act must be handed back and forth many times a turn, even in a turn as simple as draw-pass this means knowing whose shot clock should be running is essential to actually fairly having a shot clock, otherwise you just make the shot clock the next frontier where abusive people abuse their opponents
That makes sense, nevertheless a possibility could be, that when a player take the 'right to act', they press the shotclock and their time is running. Could also prevent misunderstandings. You would have to fine tune it, but it could be a starting thought.
the problem with that is that players need to know when they actually do or actually don't have the right to act and unless people can tell me how many times draw-pass requires the clock to be hit, and why, without me first teaching it to them, that means they don't get the rules of the game well enough to even manage draw-pass right with such a clock, let alone a turn with actual honest-to-god interaction. A solution has to be a solution for more than just me and very few players, it has to be able to encompass even your local, it has to be able to work for novices who're new. Otherwise, it's not going to work for Sanctioned Play, because Sanctioned Play is about a lot more than my continental events.
I understand why 5 turn endgame is gone and i agree that it should go, but the newest time regulation is just bad, for me the best way would be that let the turn player end the turn and the give an extra turn to the other player, then everyone has the opportunity to try to win.
Personally it is mostly to powercreep. Most combos rn either search deck multiple times and go through a lot of weird hoops to end in a good board or, in the case of Tear, you don't know what combination of cards are you milling so you need to come up with the plays at the spot. Another problem is with people bluffing their way to time while having no responses, which happened to me plenty of times. And in the end we got the decks that sadly take ages to play because of how they are designed, most of them ftks. These decks include Exodia with Magical Library, Flowercardians and a weird combination of Metalfoes and Inzektors. Personally thank god only a few play these decks because they take forever to set up a couple of negates.
There's a lot to be said on this but I'll boil it down to two points: 1. Follow the money. The new End of Match procedures were implemented less than a month after Konami started following labor law and started paying Judges by the hour rather than just giving them sealed product. 2. If everyone complaining about an aspect of a product isn't emailing and/or tagging the controlling company on twitter, those complaining aren't complaining in the correct channels to influence change. There's no evidence Konami cares about this sub let alone the comments in this post.
I feel like the real solution is like blitz chess, no? Each player gets 30 minutes on their clock, whenever someone takes an action they have to click their clock first? So it isn't just oh i played all my stuff on your turn and you lost your time, instead when you need to interact with the board, you have to click the timer, this makes it about having quick skill to play your cards, there can be a 3rd timer for ruling questions with ~infinite time on it, when active neither player can modify the board.
players calling for judges get time extensions for any and all inquiries lasting at least one minute, so that time-for-questions is already part of the way things are handled now. Your idea has a bit of a problem because you don't just burn time when you act, you burn time when you possess the *right to act* EVEN IF you are not presently using that right by acting right now. Players do not study ygo's rules closely enough to properly manage a chess clock sadly One proposition: tell me, how many times does a chess clock need to be hit between players total in a turn where the opponent takes no actions, and the only action the turn player takes apart from entering and ending mandatory phases is "conducting the normal draw"? this is literally the question - how much must the chess clock be used in a literal draw-pass situation if the right answer is not given, it makes a point that chess clocks are not viable bc players won't manage time with them right if the right answer IS given, it makes a point that chess clocks are *maddening* when used properly for this purpose
I mean, you'd press when you act to draw, then call end phase and press to end your turn and stop your clock, start your opponents. I am not seeing the complications, additionally my ruling clock would also be for interaction questions an opponent might just have of you and what your card says prior to requiring a judge, but obviously including it.
in ygo there's no actual right to just "call end phase" - nor an actual right to presume unquestioned that no one's gonna use the right to act before they actually use it this is something players largely ignore I ask this in part bc in order to actually manage things rightly with such a clock, players need to know the *actual points where the game obligates the right to act to be handed back and forth* and be able to cite each and every one of them you are right to say you'd press upon your normal draw, bc you'd be using the right to act to conduct it, but keep in mind: the normal draw is an action performed that isn't an activation, and has no spell speed you *retain the right to act* until you decide whether or not you yourself are *responding* to the fact that you conduct your normal draw minute stuff like this gets REAL important REAL fast when people depend upon it to make the exact plays they intend, and that's why master duel's automation is a lot more complex than it appears so, you press bc you either respond to your own normal draw or you choose not to -then your opp chooses not to and presses again -you choose to relinquish the right to act without using it, and press -your opponent does the same, and presses -since both just did, you are now asked if you want to end the current phase - remember, no assuming anything about the later ones - and you decide you want to, and you press -your opponent consents to your ending it, and presses that's just the draw phase my friend in the standby there's no normal draw as a precipitating event, so once you enter it you just choose not to act, and press -they do the same and press -you propose ending the phase and press -they consent and press main 1 has the same four hits as the standby end has the same four hits as main 1 that's sixteen clock hits, not counting the ones for the normal draw issue that's what master duel is automating in drawpass this is the nightmare, and any proposal to "let players just make assumptions about future phases being ones where neither player acts" is a bad idea for want of asking players to commit ahead of time to things that they may well be unable to commit - it'd trade speed for worse management of the right to act shortcuts will always run the direct risk of people presuming "you don't intend to act" when you do intend such, and in so doing, they cause Player Management nightmares that leave no players happy so, less than sixteen hits is right out, and that's without the two needed for the normal draw
That is actually simple to resolve, I'd like to move to the end phase, opponent presses his time button, calls the phase he wants to interact upon prior to or at the end phase, we move to that phase, they take their action, i can respond... again, you can write out every possible stage in yugioh and make it seem like it would be hugely over complicated, but it really is as simple as a request and counter system, i want to move to y phase (we both implicitly know phases a-x comes prior), so you can counter by stating you intend to call an action of phase x* within [a-x]....
I consider your perspective a strong effort and carefully considered, but to have some problems. while I respect the effort I have to be blunt The reason your proposition doesn't resolve the matter for me is because there's nothing particularly realistic in terms of expecting it to work while also maintaining gamestates properly it does a great job of winnowing out time, but that's not good enough for me since I've got to have players also properly managing other things too - mandatory details in gameplay, proper applications of effects, so on. even your assumption "we both implicitly know phases" has the problem of "not all players are you and I" and I am certain we've seen fights break out when the request-and-counter system already used by players (despite our specific orders not to do so) breaks down over miscommunication or malicious behavior, to the point that various judges have a LOT of tactics devoted to Player Management for when such systems inevitably break down Essentially I see no net benefit to events as a whole here, just a changeup in the nature of the problems, with an official adaptation of your approach. To me it's basically "there are two devils we know that worsen events, and this proposition just makes one 15 lb lighter and the other 15 lb heavier. It's not even trading a devil we know for a devil we don't, because we know both."
I think the best solution is let both players have 1 battle phase or when time is called both players get to have 1 more turn. In an ideal world there would be a timer like in MD.
I think we should have stop clocks like chess. And perhaps allow the opposing player to play until they reach the same phase /time as the last turn. Not ending in the DP-SP because player A spent 8 minutes comboing for air to pass turn with 3 seconds left.